Delphi's demand: Take $9 an hour (headline in Det Free Press)

[Bozita]

Front page, above the fold, top right.

http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/delphi26e_20051026.htm

Delphi's demand: Take $9 an hour


Health care, pension trims also planned

October 26, 2005


BY JASON ROBERSON and MICHAEL ELLIS
FREE PRESS BUSINESS WRITERS


If Delphi Corp. has its way, workers for the nation's largest auto parts supplier would be paid as little as $9 per hour under 65% wage cuts, and be hit with a tenfold increase in health-care costs, no dental and vision care and other sharp reductions in benefits, according to a proposal revealed on the Web site of a UAW local.


The document shows for the first time the severity of the cuts the bankrupt company has told the union it needs to survive.


The cuts are even stiffer than the company's final proposal to the union before it filed for Chapter 11 on Oct. 8, further infuriating workers already angered by the threats to their livelihood.


"How in the hell do they expect anybody to live?" asked Andy Loughran, a 54-year-old Delphi worker from Dayton, Ohio. "You think you're going to get a good quality product at $9 an hour?"

more...

[strategery blunder]

1. Hell, yuppie teenagers can make that wage...

Republikkkan KKKompasionate KKKonservatism at work...:puke:

[jayctravis]

81. Teenagers will do jobs that no one else wants to do.

[strategery blunder]

83. I think you missed my point...

My point was that Delphi expects workers that have years and years of experience to take the same wages that some dim-witted freeper teenager could earn by being a cashier at Target.:puke:

[jayctravis]

87. Oh certainly...I agree.

I think a lot of upper management gets so separated from the job they devalue it. Some smart people get them going and then they decide they can get someone in at minimum wage to push the buttons. Not right by any account.

[HereSince1628]

106. And the exec's will get a raise, and bonus for making hard decisions

that "save" the company.

Right. We won the cold war only to be returned to serfdom by the robber-barrons.

They will not be satisfied until American wages are competitive with the 35 cents an hour workers make in China.

Just think of all the Capital that is out there to concentrate!

[bballny]

2. This is Heaven

in Bushworld. Cheap labor and no benefits.

[Zynx]

3. Do they think this is the 1890s all over again?

We'll cut your wages down to nothing and still fire almost all of you. Mwahahahaha!

[bballny]

5. The Gilded age

Rove's favorite period. Anyone with half a brain should mhave known what this means to the average person. Bring back child labor.

[Zynx]

12. Child labor, no wage protection, no worker's comp, no environmental

laws, and dramatic economic cycles that go from boom to horrible crippling busts.

[sweepster]

60. Whats next? Company script and housing?

Would not surprise me.

[sarcasmo]

63. Death of the Unions. Union busting through Bankruptcy.

Welcome to the new and disgusting U.S.A. the home of the 9 dollar an hour job. If this doesn't start a Revolution nothing will. FYI, GM is next.

[Blue_Tires]

93. agreed

good points, ive been saying the same thing

[jayctravis]

82. Thing is, people could survive on that wage if they were protected

with health insurance that didn't take a giant chunk of that. Also housing and transportation needs to be available. If you have to have a car and pay for housing and be ready for the inevitable medical emergency, that costs money.

The government was created by us and should protect us. Not whatever the hell is happening now.

[ikojo]

92. I told a co-worker about the Wal-Mart memo and how

Bushco and his supporters wanted to take people back to the era of the robber barons and she said, "the wouldn't be able to do it" and that she didn't think they really wanted to do that.

Oy vey! To say she views the world through rose colored glasses is an understatement!

[kevinmc]

4. That's A F'in Crime n/t

[knitter4democracy]

6. How much are the higher ups getting paid through this?

Are their wages getting cut that much? If they aren't, that would be a better place to start, as they're the ones who led the company into bankruptcy.

[54anickel]

39. The company claimed the execs are underpaid

compared with rivals, but many are getting cuts. I posted an article that stated that in the SMW thread a while ago (week or so). Can't use the search function right now to track it down though.

Found this on google, Don't think it's the article I was thinking of though

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/17/AR2005101700771_2.html

snip>

Under the plans announced Monday, President Rodney O'Neal will take a 20 percent cut in base pay and other top executives, who were at Delphi when Miller joined, will take 10 percent cuts. All the changes are effective January 1.

Miller said he remains concerned that Delphi executives are underpaid compared with rivals and said the severance plan for top executives provides a key benefit for Delphi.

Before declaring bankruptcy, the Troy, Michigan-based Delphi raised the severance for top executives other than Miller to 18 months from 12 months, if they were fired or left voluntarily, in exchange for noncompete agreements.

Miller said Delphi has no plans to extend pay cuts to salaried employees who, he said, already have competitive wages and contribute about 27 percent toward their health care, compared with a 7 percent contribution by hourly workers.

[knitter4democracy]

67. The pay cut for the hourly employees isn't competitive.

His logic falls apart. He says the execs are paid less than at other similar places, but they're the ones who led the company badly. Frankly, they need bigger pay cuts.

[mumon]

91. Now THAT'S a shareholder lawsuit waiting to happen...

Before declaring bankruptcy, the Troy, Michigan-based Delphi raised the severance for top executives other than Miller to 18 months from 12 months, if they were fired or left voluntarily, in exchange for noncompete agreements.

These buttholes ran the company into the ground and Delphi's board/top management is worried about whether they'll compete against them or not???

I'd think after the fine job they did f*cking up their company and p*ssing on shareholder value - and screwing the employees- that they'd welcome competitors hiring them, so they could f*ck up their competitors.

[mtnester]

7. $9.00 per hour = 360.00 per week

$18.720.00 per year.

Here are the HHS Poverty level numbers for this year

2005 HHS Poverty Guidelines
Persons in Family Unit 48 Contiguous States and D.C. Alaska Hawaii
1 $ 9,570 $11,950 $11,010
2 12,830 16,030 14,760
3 16,090 20,110 18,510
4 19,350 24,190 22,260
5 22,610 28,270 26,010
6 25,870 32,350 29,760
7 29,130 36,430 33,510
8 32,390 40,510 37,260
For each additional person, add
3,260 4,080 3,750

[Delphinus]

46. What do these three different columns mean?

I get the first one - how many in the household, but what are the three dollar figures? The bottom would be the poverty level? The other two would be ... thanks.

[mtnester]

49. Alaksa and Hawaii

I could not get them to column up

[NashVegas]

86. =18.7k per year

This is sheer economic elitism.

[DS1]

104. Before taxes

After taxes it's more like 13 grand, give or take

[OneBlueSky]

8. that's okay as long as the CEO also takes $9/hour . . .

I'm sure he/she can afford it far more easily than the line workers . . .

[VegasWolf]

18. That is the problem! Japanese Auto Maker CEOs make < 10% of American

counterparts. These execs drive the company into the ground and nobody holds them accountable.

[northzax]

97. American Executives want Chinese labour pay

but not Chinese executive pay. typical.

[MetaTrope]

95. The CEO has promised to cut his annual salary to $1

But he may still have savings from his $3 million signing bonus and the $1.5 million he's made annually up to now.

[HughBeaumont]

9. Republicans - Sodomizing the Little Guy at the Behest of the Wealthy

Since 1961!

I'm REALLY not getting why more people are out in the streets over shit like this. What's going to be the eventual realization of unbridled corporatism? 4000 blue-suited overlords flying from building to building to gated and heavily guarded community while 130 million peons scavenge and starve? We're fucking becoming South America.

How the hell do you stop the rich?

[reprobate]

11. Meanwhile, south america is becoming more democratic and socialist.

And the two are NOT mutually exclusive.

[ckramer]

96. How the hell do you stop the rich?

We have a soccer team in Boston called NE ______________

You fill in the blank.

[Tight_rope]

10. Good thing Walmart is hiring and trying to raise wages!

[Bozita]

14. Wal-Mart Memo Suggests Ways to Cut Employee Benefit Costs (NYT)

Rose Siding has started a thread here in LBN for the Walmart article: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1877640&mesg_id=1877640


NYT article link:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/26/business/26walmart.ready.html?hp&ex=1130385600&en=311481941719e52b&ei=5094&partner=homepage

October 26, 2005


Wal-Mart Memo Suggests Ways to Cut Employee Benefit Costs
By STEVEN GREENHOUSE
and MICHAEL BARBARO

An internal memo sent to Wal-Mart's board of directors proposes numerous ways to hold down spending on health care and other benefits while seeking to minimize damage to the retailer's reputation. Among the recommendations are hiring more part-time workers and discouraging unhealthy people from working at Wal-Mart.

In the memorandum, M. Susan Chambers, Wal-Mart's executive vice president for benefits, also recommends reducing 401(k) contributions and wooing younger, and presumably healthier, workers by offering education benefits. The memo voices concern that workers with seven years' seniority earn more than workers with one year's seniority, but are no more productive.

To discourage unhealthy job applicants, Ms. Chambers suggests that Wal-Mart arrange for "all jobs to include some physical activity (e.g., all cashiers do some cart-gathering)."

The memo acknowledged that Wal-Mart, the world's largest retailer, had to walk a fine line in restraining benefit costs because critics had attacked it for being stingy on wages and health coverage. Ms. Chambers acknowledged that 46 percent of the children of Wal-Mart's 1.33 million United States employees were uninsured or on Medicaid.

more...

[ErisFiveFingers]

13. Don't forget how many people live on minimum rage.

9 Bucks an hour is a *raise*.

[RedRocco]

24. hell yeah!

as a minimum wage worker I would love a $9 an hour job

[lastliberalintexas]

25. I think you forgot the sarcasm smilie

Please don't start any of this intra-class warfare bullshit. We don't need the poor fighting the working poor fighting the lower middle class. :eyes:

[RedRocco]

29. I wasn't being sarcastic

I actually make minimum wage and have for the last 5 years. if our house wasn't paid for we would be in a world of hurt

[lastliberalintexas]

33. My post wasn't in reply to you

It was directed to someone calling a 65% CUT in wages a raise simply because it is more than some other people make.

Again, I just don't like the intra-class warfare that can sometimes erupt on DU. After all, our economic enemy is not the person making $30,000 or even $100,000- it's the CEO, board of directors and others who drive earned income down while increasing its tax rates and decreasing the tax burdens on unearned income.

Whether the minimum wage should be increased (of course) is wholly irrelevant to whether this particular group of workers is getting screwed by a company driven into bankruptcy by bad decisions- and the people who made those bad decisions come out smelling like a rose.

[RedRocco]

36. ah ok then

no offense taken
I'm just stressed right now because I need to raise $350 somewhere to get our car back on the road

[lastliberalintexas]

37. No offense intended or certainly taken

And I hope you can find the money for the repairs somewhere! And I completely understand the stress thing, after the month we've had here. :)

[ErisFiveFingers]

53. Fair enough.

My point was that there are many folks inside the lower paid classes of workers that shouldn't be forgotten. Some are only making minimum rage (wage), others are reduced to less than 10 bucks an hour.

I wouldn't be surprised if Delphi, and other corporations of their ilk, would (could?) try to justify driving *all* labor wages down to the bottom... so I don't see it as class warfare. Those making 30 an hour and those making 5.15 and hour are in the same boat of seeing their wages shrunk in the name of profits.

The only legal floor for that is minimum rage.

[Itchinjim]

15. This shit started on August 3, 1980.

The day that son of a bitch, Ronald Fucking Reagan fired the air traffic controllers. This is nothing more than the continuation of their process of crushing the American worker.

[brook]

71. You got that right!

"Saint Reagan" started it and the downside hasn't stopped in all these years.

Off topic, but not far.I was loading Meals for Seniors in a volunteer driver's car this morning & some sob started hassling me. I was "in his way" while he was loading up his free food from another group. The old sob called me a 'stinking liberal'. (I make 28 bucks a day feeding his Reaganite friends.

end :rant:

[XanaDUer]

101. Thank you.

100% correct. That was the beginning of the end.

[Strawman]

16. These are the people Democrats need to present an alternative to

Where are the Democrats big ideas here? What do we propose doing to help these people? Where are proposals for wage insurance to help people in a real way during their transition between this job and the next job they're going to get that probably won't pay as much? Someone wins when these companies go bankrupt and weasel out of their contracts and then reorganize with lower overhead. It's rich motherfuckers. If they want more and more, they should be prepared to be taxed more and more to pay for the saftey net that's going to be needed for the rest of society whose wages are dropping so the rich can get richer.

We continue to try to bribe these companies to keep jobs in our communities and they just screw us in the end because they can. They can lower their wages and insurance and pension costs in bankruptcy court. They want to make their bottom line more attractive to investors the quick and easy way by slashing labor costs. It seems like even if workers win a battle here and there against these companies, they are losing the war.

I think the answer lies in creating a true federal social saftey net for people. Among other things that includes single payer national health insurance, and wage insurance that pays people a significant amount of the difference between their old wages and their new wages. If the market is going to drive down wages and we need to allow that for businesses to maximize efficiences and national wealth, then we need to redistribute that wealth on the backend, and not just allow the top 1% to benefit from it at the expense of the (dwindling) middle class.

I'm tired of seeing the Democrats merely scold greedy CEO's and blame the Republicans while simultaneously cowering from bold programs that might be labeled as "socialist" because they are afraid of being accused of starting "class warfare." That might make for good politics if all you care about is the next election cycle, but it's poor leadership. Stop being so deliberately ambiguous on economic issues. Demcoratic elites need to stop trying to be everything to everybody and stand up for their people, the working people in this country. The business class already has representation from the Republican party.

[Occulus]

30. Dems need to put forward the idea of

eliminating corporate personhood. They get away with things like this because they have the rights of natural persons. Strip them of those rights; they are not natural persons and therefore do not deserve the rights of the same, set forth in our Constitution.

Let me make myself clear:

Corporations are not persons; they do not deserve the right to free speech.

Corporations are not persons; they do not deserve the right to employ armed security.

Corporations are not persons; they do not deserve the right to be secure in their papers and effects.

Corporations are not persons; they do not deserve the right to own property.

Corporations are not persons; they must never be allowed to own other corporations.

Corporations are not persons; they do not deserve the right to diversify their interests, and shouldn't be allowed to tear off their arms to create a new corporation ("child corporations").

Strip them of all these things, and more. Make every last right we real, live human beings enjoy nothing more than revokable priveleges for corporations.

Yes, this means the public can appropriate their profits at will. Yes, this means the public can vote- on a simple majority basis, likely a state vote, taken in the state that chartered the corporation- to simply close any corporation which steps outside its charter.

Corporations get away with what they do because they have the "right" to do so. My position is, corporations deserve no rights, only priveleges that may be revoked at any time. The only way to keep corporations from abusing their workers is to have the corporate death penalty ever hanging over their heads. When corporate behavior becomes harmful (or deadly) to the public of the state in which its charter wsa issued, that corporation deserves to be killed.

We do not do this in the United States. We need to, to bring corporate behavior into line. They will continue to slowly crush the American worker if drastic action is not taken, and soon. I believe eliminating corporate personhood is the only real way we can effect a change.

[Strawman]

31. I agree with that

But you won't hear hear many (if any) "electable" Democrats saying this. At some point some leaders have to emerge from the left of center to build a new social consensus around ideas like this. Our current center-right consensus is making the Democrats increasingly irrelevant. It's a framework where they are going to find themselves and their constituents constantly losing ground.

[hughee99]

52. This sounds great...

I'd like to start a coffee shop tomorrow where I can be prevented from advertising, locking the doors at night or owning the land it's on. Where anyone can just come in and walk behind the counter, and at any time, without notice, the government can come in and empty my cash register into their pocket.

I'm not speaking against any controls on business, or that business should have all the rights of people, but you have to have some established guidelines, whatever they may be, and not make the whole thing subject to the whim of politicians or the people. You think you see corruption now, see what happens when the government is the one who determines who can do business and where, whose profits are arbitrarily taken, whose land can be confiscated and given to someone else. Right now, business bribe (or "support" if you prefer) politicians to help them gain some kind of advantage or to prevent them from incurring some kind of disadvantage. When a business has to depend on politicians for their very existence, and anyone can put "the competition" out of business simply by bribing the right officials, things will only get worse. Your proposal might be okay in the hands of trustworthy people, but trustworthy people have never been in great surplus in politics.

[Occulus]

57. Only chartered corporations.

Small businesses would have nothing to fear. I'm not talking about the license to do business as it applies to owner/operators. I'm talking about strict and unforgiving regulation of the large behemoth corporations operating in multiple countries which give back minimal benefit for their workers and/or the public- and especially about those corporations who use their status as a corporation to, effectively, nullify the effect of our judicial system by evading or "absorbing" civil and criminal punishment.

I'm not talking about "the government" deciding anything; I am speaking solely to the status of corporations as persons under the law. The doctrine needs to be dealt with; it needs to be ended completely, and the sooner the better, both for our nation and the rest of the world.

Only the People should be able to shut a corporation's doors, and only by a vote to revoke the corporate charter. Corporations would have NO say, and I* mean this in the strictest possible terms, in what goes on in our government. Any contact of any kind between corporations or the trade associations they are represented by and the people who write our laws should be verboten, but at the same time, they should be required by law to open their books- the whole shebang- to our legislators upon request.

Refusal to do so should be considered a violation of the corporate charter, and dealt with as I have outlined above. ONE chance to do it right, and beyond that, corporate death.

What would you have us do with businesses so rich and so powerful that they can run out the legal clock by simply outspending the widow whose husband of fifty years died as a direct result of corporate malfeasance? They get off by default, because they can outspend the plaintiff.

Not right. Simply not right. Corporations should not be able to do such things.

[NashVegas]

88. One Positive Step I've Seen

Is unions waking up to the reality of the global workforce, and taking appropriate measures. ie, outreach in foreign worker countries. If the workers in the colonies can be organized against their exploitation, multinationals will be forced to get more realistic about their profit margins.

[libnnc]

17. they're squeezing the workers

so they won't have enough money to afford union dues. That's how they'll kill the union. Bleeding it dry. Bastards.

[Bozita]

19. Here's the same story as seen by a DetNews reporter

http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0510/26/A01-361752.htm

Wednesday, October 26, 2005

Delphi offer: $9 an hour

Ailing supplier lowers bid to UAW; workers asked to pay up to $5,000 yearly for health care.

By Bill Vlasic / The Detroit News


Delphi Corp.'s first offer to unionized autoworkers since filing for bankruptcy protection calls for an unprecedented elimination of benefits and even steeper wage cuts than an earlier proposal made by Chairman Robert S. "Steve" Miller.

Instead of the $10 to $12 an hour that Miller said Delphi should pay its production workers, the company started talks with the United Auto Workers last Friday by seeking wages as low as $9 an hour, according to a copy of the proposal posted on union Web sites.

In addition, Delphi wants workers to accept:
• Huge increases in out-of-pocket health care costs and the reduction or elimination of pension benefits.
• The loss of vision and dental benefits, tuition assistance and child care subsidies.
• Reduced vacation days, paid holidays and overtime.
• The elimination of cost-of-living raises and profit sharing.

The new terms would take effect Jan. 1, 2006, and run through Jan 1, 2012.

more...

[Delphinus]

47. Sorry,

but how can anyone making $18,000 a year afford $5,000 in health care costs? I can't - which is why I've not seen a doctor in six years. I hope the UAW can stand up to this. Somehow.

[hatrack]

20. That's $18,720 per year, assuming 52 weeks, no overtime

Anybody here think they can buy a house, pay a mortgage, raise kids or save for those kids' college educations on $18,720 per year?

More to the point for GM et. al. - Anybody here think people can do any of the above and buy a new car?

[Bozita]

21. Don't forget the Health Savings Account (HSA)

Put some of your wages into one of these accounts and you'll be able to cover your medical expenses when you've grown old.

[hatrack]

22. Oh, yeah, thanks - I had forgotten all about that "insurance" thing

:eyes:

[llmart]

26. Just had open enrollment at Chrysler.....

and they are pushing the health savings accounts like crazy. Trying to make them look like the best thing since sliced bread. Wow! They'll even chip in $500 for the savings accounts! What the hell does that buy in terms of health care these days?

[Bozita]

28. Were there any takers?

Curious.

[llmart]

40. Not us.

My husband leaves all those decisions up to me. He didn't even know what an HSA was until I explained it to him. I don't know how many takers there were. Headquarters employs about 10,000 people and open enrollment runs for two months. No way of knowing really.

[sweepster]

62. I'm glad I went into an HSA.

I'm 43 and it was a good deal-especially that I have no real health problems. I was paying $196.00 for my old insurance and my HSA is $68.00 per month for a $1500 deductible. I'm putting in the difference betwen the old and new premium and currently have $1800 in my account. Plus the money I put into my account each year is tax free and comes out tax fre as long as I spend it on a medical condition.

HSA are not a good deal if you have major health problems though.

[llmart]

102. You have no major health problems now.....

but what happens if you develop one tomorrow? At 43 you're still naive enough to think you'll always be that healthy.

These HSA's are the new 401K's. I'm old enough to remember how they were touted as the end all and be all of savings plans. Tax free and all. All the same arguments. Read the latest issue of Time to see how the magic of 401K's hasn't come through. Same with IRA's. During the Reagan years they tried to push IRA's down everyone's throats saying if you put the max in every year, you'd end up with a million dollars when you retired. Well, we did and we're now nearing retirement age and we are no where near a million dollars.

Don't be fooled by the propaganda. If you live long enough you see the trend.

[SoCalDem]

56. Sure.. and what happens when you have $450.00 in your "HSA" ,and

the doctor says you need surgery NOW!.. I am sure the doctor will say..hey $450.00's enoough..we love HSA's"...:rofl:

[sweepster]

61. The insurance kicks in after the deductible

HSA's usually have a deductible and after you meet that they pay 100%.

My HSA deductible is $1500 any my monthkly premium is very low for my age. I have $1800 in my account after two years which will pay the deductible of $1500 if that should happen.

HSA are a great thing especially for the younger worker and if you have little or no health problems. I put in the $1500 into my account each year. It is currently earning 3.75% tax free.

[kymar57]

90. HSA

I may be wrong,but I think the HSA where I work goes something like you put in money pretax for med care but you better use it or lose it that calendar yr. Not sure. I don't subscribe.

[HughBeaumont]

32. Not even in Arkansas.

[AFSCME girl]

23. I'll bet those golden parachutes

the Delphi bigwigs got aren't based on $9.00 damn dollars an hour!! This makes me sick!!!!!! :mad:

[TheCowsCameHome]

27. Stick it up your ass, Delphi.

$10 an hour for stocking grocery shelves around here, no experience necessary.

[daleo]

34. They may be planning to move most production to China

Part of the plan is "making an offer the UAW can't accept". A variation on The Godfather.

[SujiwanKenobee]

35. Well, here ya go. Bush: These are the jobs that "Americans don't want."

Onward to hiring illegals/legal immigrants who will gladly take those wages for a job.
Of course, a company must do whatever it takes to give stockholder value--whether it makes its American employees take it up the ass or outsources.

-------FUME--------

This country is really sounding more and more like it is reverting to attitudes prevalent over a hundred years ago only the unions no longer have muscle or political relevance. And, there aren't any major awakenings that brings the middle class out of its' consumption-induced torpor to give a damn about this nations working class.

[mike_c]

38. wage slavery....

This is criminal. The Walmart-ization of American manufacturing.

[newscott]

41. So the auto industry has had 25 years to prepare for this day

and what have they done?

Nothing.

Viva Toyota.

[shrike]

48. Wait 'til it's your job on the line

And we'll see what you have to say.

[trogdor]

58. So I'm supposed to buy a Chevy because it's patriotic?

Bullhockey. People buy Toyotas because they're BETTER, not because they're CHEAPER. People buy Toyotas when their children are in elementary school and hand them down when they're 16 - and buy another one. They're that good.

Same goes for Honda (mine was made in Ohio).

People buy Kias because they're CHEAPER, and later, when they're trying to unload the Kia before the loan is paid off, they'll find that they could have had a Chevy (which is BETTER than a Kia) for a few dollars more and still be driving it a year or two after they've finished paying for it.

Same goes for Hyundai (I hear they're making 'em in Alabama now).

What I'm wondering is, why Chevy continues to suck. This has been going on for a long time now, and I don't see anyone actually doing anything about it other than piss and moan. Do I blame UAW workers? Hell no. I don't even give all of the blame to the engineers. I suspect it's really the suits that make Chevys suck. The suits approve the designs (many of which are butt-ugly), the marketing (most of which insults the intelligence of a gerbil), and the specifications (probably over the silent protest of the engineers). They could grind Toyota into the dust if they wanted to, but they don't want to, so they won't.

I bet you could get Toyota's best people, stick them on a Chevy assembly line, and they'd churn out the same crap. It was designed that way, not built that way. It's unfortunate what is happening to the people on the assembly lines, but let's place the blame where it belongs, and don't expect Americans to buy crap just because somebody said it was "patriotic."

[shrike]

66. Well ...

the problem with outsourcing is that the "crap" stuff could be applied to anything.

I grew up in Detroit, and the situation is quite a complicated one. I won't go into all the reasons why Chevy, et. al are in trouble. But here's the thing: a lot of bloviating folk (and I met a lot of them outeast) very pompously said that it was GM/Ford's fault. The auto industry was asleep, they said. The great product finds a market.

Trouble is, the concern seems to be more of cost than quality. The same people pooh-poohing autoworkers' concerns (train for another job, they said) are seeing their computer/service/what-not jobs outsourced to China. NOW they show concern. A little late, I say. Train for another job ...

Many products overseas are not better, they're simply cheaper -- for the producer and the consumer. Meanwhile, the folks making stuff are doing somewhat better, but not that much. Did you know that the Indonesians, for example (home of Nike factories) measure progress by calories? The average Indonesian now consumes 1,700 calories a day, instead of 1,200. Due to the better paying jobs that outsourcing brings them. Meanwhile, the executive makes millions.

Outsourcing is a real problem, and it's due to a lot more than crappy cars. The Japanese do seem to know how to run better companies, granted. My brother-in-law works for Mitsubishi and they treat him very well. One thing they appear to do is look at the long-term -- lower short-term profits, invest in the future and draw in better market share.

Anyway, I'm simply pointing out that the problem goes far beyond the American car companies -- and btw, Delphi is an automotive supplier that sells world-wide. They don't make cars per se, and I assume they also sell to Hyundai, Toyota, et. al.

[newscott]

78. I bought a Chevy because I can't afford a Toyota with less than

200k miles on it.

[newscott]

77. Been there done that.

I have been hanging by my fingernails at times since Bush took office. I know exactly how it feels.

[shrike]

85. Didn't mean to snap at you

Outsourcing goes well beyond the auto industry these days, and it's an issue we're all beginning to face. I know Delphi is a spin-off of GM. Wonder if GM is their primary customer, or if they've made inroads elsewhere.

[michreject]

42. This is BS

They had a revolution in France a few hundred years ago over this same kinda thing.

Wouldn't be surprised to see it happen again.

[Bombero1956]

43. you know...

If you can't afford to pay your workers a fair living wage and benefits then pull your sponsorship of the Nascar racecar. The associate sponsorship of the #5 car runs $2 million to $6 million a year. Have the CEO and all the suits put their money where their mouth is.

[Sadie5]

44. From what I'm hearing

The union will NOT be accepting their offer of Insurance accounts. This is what I am hearing. GM is lying when they say they are broke. Not broke enough to give out those bonuses to CEOs, yet expect the workers to work for nothing. If we can just hold on I believe with what has happened in the past few days,(indictments and all) that the Repigs will be out on their a$$es and the Democrats will fix things after the election. A lot of those who call themselves Democrats are DLC'ers, and therefore need to go too as they are nothing more than shills for the corporations. GM has many money making concerns and they are not going broke.

[sweepster]

65. GM is going broke

They are losing money at the rate of 17.4 million each and every day. They have been selling off the family silver(fuji, subaru etc) to pay their debts. They have $36 billion in cash reserves but are losing 1.5 billion or so every qtr. However they have 250 billion in debt for pensions and health care in future years.

This is a sad situation for all involved. I;m really concerned when the chicoms start selling cars over here in 07.

[salin]

69. chicoms?

interesting choice of term.

GM is in trouble - no question. And its problems harken many others coming down the pike. But I don't know that "chicoms" selling cars here is as big of a problem as fiscal policies that have led our country's ability not to go into default (ala economic collapse ala Argentina) to be tied to banks and govts - esp those in asia, including China. They don't keep buying our debt - and we are in huge trouble. GMs daily debt problem is nothing compared to our federal government's debt problem.

[sweepster]

72. What I meant...

was that the chicoms elling cars over here mybe the dealth nail into the GM/Ford coffin. They plan to start selling cars here in 07. 50,00 first year projected. Even Toyota and Honda are scared because they cannot compete with 1.00 per hour labor.

A GM car is say $16000 the comparable chinese car will be $9000. Americans dont care and will buy the cheapest car. Hey it's a me me me society who cares about my fellow worker.

I agree with you about our twin federal debt. Shades of Argentina one day perhaps??

[salin]

73. Has there ever been a case of taking a developed economy

with a broad middle class - and turning into a banana republic type economy with a huge underclass and a small super wealthy elite? I can't think of an example (doesn't mean one doesn't exist) - but sometimes it seems as if that is what some of the "powers that be" would like to see happen.

No offense, I just can't get over the use "chicoms." Strikes me as very cold war era/scare tactic term. Not sure if that is what you are going for - but it can be read that way. There are reasons to be concerned about China - many reasons (esp legitimate is the very cheap labor and HUGE source of cheap labor) - but I don't think "fear of spread of communism" is a primary reason anymore.

[sweepster]

103. The last time I checked the chinese are still communist

hence the term chinese communist.

[salin]

107. what is the relevance?

Per my past post there are many reasons to be wary and concerned about China - but the communist part seems quite less important than it did twenty or thirty years ago. The whole "commie" as a fear tag - when there are so many other reasons to be legitimately concerned - far more than the old cold war fear of the "spread of the red menace" - that the term seems to be either a) outdated, or b) intentionally used to get an emotional reaction out of folks who are not aware enough to realize the real threat and it has little to do with a "communist spread" threat." Guess in this new era of jingoism - I react more strongly to the old version of jingoism - esp when there is a real threat that is almost masked when it is couched in a "threat of communism" (I think that threat is long over.) And the real issues thus get masked in knee-jerk terms.

[Delphinus]

45. And what was the salary cut of the top dogs?

Didn't they get a golden parachute? Something like that? If they're going to drop their wages by more than half, the management better be ready to bite the bullet too.

[catmandu57]

50. They'll keep pulling this shit

because they can. It doesn't make a fuck to a corporation who or where their stuff is made, it's the bottom line and only the bottom line that matters.
Until workers become radicals once more, and stand up to these bastards the dominoes will continue to fall.

[lovuian]

51. This is the real war waged by Bush is the demise of the Unions

and here it is They want us to compete with China and those people live in cardboard boxes!!!

[Mari333]

54. welcome to my world

hell 9 dollars an hour would be a godsend, I only make 7.25.

[m0nkeyneck]

55. global economy/technology... this is inevitable

[fedsron2us]

59. Nothing is inevitable

except death. Eventually people will have to make the choice whether they wish die on their feet or live on their knees.

[SoCalDem]

64. It is inevitable if we all want to be 3rd world

Most of us do not!

[Darranar]

76. No, it is not inevitable.

It is the direct result of long-term policies aiming at forcing workers to compete against one another.

[madmom]

68. My SO said he seems to remember someone asking Mexico

President Fox, around the time of the start of NAFTA,how long he thought it would take for Mexican workers to come up to our standard of living, his reply: they won't, American will come down to ours! Well it looks like they are trying to make him right!

[4dsc]

70. Everybody should WALK!!

I would tel then to go fuck themselves and then walk off the job!! Lets see management do all the work!! They could shut down GM and others too!! EIther express your power or lose it!

[MarsThe Cat]

74. that may be just what management wants-

so their brand new plant in in lowagestan that's ready to go can get started.

[natrat]

105. that's it---the offer is so bad that workers have to strike

then mgmt. closes it down and moves it out of country----why should this corporation be allowed in the US?

[LiberalFighter]

75. Do any mgmt vacation or hold business mtgs in Florida?

Would be risky

[EndElectoral]

79. They don't care about quality...it's tough to watch this disintegration

[Maggie_May]

80. Don't forget Bush's

statement in upper discussion post the economy is doing great. I live in this great state of Michigan and we have lost jobs to overseas and nobody in this administration wants to talk about that.

[sufrommich]

94. And we will lose more

if GM and Ford take their cue from Delphi and decide to give it a shot themselves.GM is already making noises about" drastic changes"(read cuts) in health benefits to stay in the race.The next step is moving out of country if the UAW doesn't deliver.As we michiganders know,whether we directly work for the big 3 or not,we will all be hurting much more than we already are.I hear a lot of anxious talk out there.People are scared,rightfully so.

[ikojo]

84. In West St Louis County people can make that working at

MCDONALDS (because the rich kids out that way don't have to work and don't want to do that kind of work if they choose to work). Wow!

Tell the CEO and other executives to take an equal paycut and it MIGHT be fair.


WHEN will people have had enough? WHEN?

[HockeyMom]

89. I made $9/hour in 1978

as an Administrative Assistant in Manhattan. My rent was $250 a month. The cost of a subway token to get to work was 50 cents. My groceries cost me for a week about $25. My electric bill was around $25 a month. My heat was included in the rent.

See the DIFFERENCE is today's world? It's ABSURD to expect ONE PERSON to live on that money in today's economy, let alone a family.

[fortyfeetunder]

98. The sucking sound of US wages

If Delphi can get away with this act, be sure the rest of Corporate America will follow suit. Quickly.

[pinniped]

99. United Airlines did something like that. Workers took a paycut...

and many got canned.

[NuttyFluffers]

100. Might I suggest Crucifixion for the offending parties...

it may not ... "solve" anything, but it'd sure make people feel better. and possibly send a "positive message" to other top management elsewhere, a.k.a "don't fuck up!"