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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-09-05 09:49 PM
Original message
Che's daughter backs the revolution
Che's daughter backs the revolution
From: Agence France-Presse From correspondents in Havana
October 10, 2005

SOCIALISM was still possible in Latin America, the daughter of Cuba's revolutionary hero Che Guevara has said.

Aleida Guevara March, daughter of Argentine-born Ernesto "Che" Guevara, said leftist Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez inspired hope. In an interview 38 years after the death of her father, she said it was still possible to remove the right-wing from the region, specifically in Bolivia, Ecuador, El Salvador, Mexico, Nicaragua and Peru.
"All that is needed is a good scalpel," Guevara March, 44, said. Like her father, she studied medicine.

Her father joined the Cuban revolution, led by Cuba's president, Fidel Castro, helping to topple the Havana government in 1959. Guevara died trying to export socialist revolution to Bolivia.

His daughter said the US "has unleashed so much propaganda against Cuba and against socialism that many people are afraid of it".
(snip)

"Hugo Chavez today could be an alternative, a possibility, but if one looks at the evolution of his Bolivarian Revolution, one sees that circumstances have forced him to be more and more radical because of US pressure," she said.
(snip/...)

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,16869673-38199,00....

Aleida is the child between the parents in this photo.

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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-09-05 10:02 PM
Response to Original message
1. Scalpel? How about a good machete?
I want capitalism toppled in this country as well!

The choice we face is one between Socialism or barbarism.
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guruoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #1
12. Socialism and Capitalism have one thing in common...
either one can be
a poison or a cure...
it all depends on the dose.
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-09-05 10:02 PM
Response to Original message
2. Very neat
leftist movements are gaining more power in Latin America. The Left in Nicaragua is gaining power and might impeach the president; El Salvador's reforms have given justice and equality to the people, not to mention establishing democracy instead of a disgusting junta. Venezuela and Chavez are doing absolutely amazing things, as well as standing up to Bush and Uncle Sam. Brazil is now more leftist. Cuba has obviously been the bastion of equality in Latin America for half a century. Latin America has been experiencing progress and improvement, but much more needs to be done, and much more will be accomplished. Justice will be found in the end.
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BayCityProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-09-05 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Great news
I am all for socialism and I hope it continues its advances in Latin America. Bolivia and Mexican elections should be very itneresting. I just cant imagine the US allowing a known leftist to become president of Mexico.
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NecessaryOnslaught Donating Member (691 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-09-05 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Socialism is no better than Capitalism
The concept of Socialism is incongruent with modernity- It is best seen historically as a response to the tensions brought about by industrialization and the beginning of the 20th centruy. It does not adequetly protect the rights of the individual in a society. It is an alluring snake oil that all to often progressive-thinking people, fed up with the excesses of capitialist societies turn to as an alternative to the vagaries of the open market. Socialism's allure fades though when theory is put into pratice, as its economic, cultural , and legal conceptions inevitably allow a small group of intelligencia/state planners to ditate norms to the masses,often through coersion and state sponsered propoganda.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-09-05 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. unless you value, EDUCATION, employment, lower infant mortality, etc
but from your definition it sure is hard to tell the difference :evilgrin:

peace
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awoke_in_2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-09-05 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. "unless you value, EDUCATION, employment, lower infant mortality, etc"
Damn, my fellow DUers keep bringing up good points (or maybe I am just being too philosophical i.e. had one too many beers), but how, in the name of God, does a so-called backwards-assed, third world, communist country, like Cuba, have a lower infant mortality rate than the good ole US? Guess some countries know how to take care of the less-privileged.
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 07:09 AM
Response to Reply #8
17. How? Because Cuba is not a backwards-assed, third world nation.
Cuba is a shining example of hope and progress to the third world.



"Guess some countries know how to take care of the less-privileged."


Cuba isn't just an area of land. It is the people who inhabit the island who know how to care for the less privileged. The doctors, the educators, the students, the social workers, the unions, etc. etc. etc., via their ever evolving political systems.



:hi:

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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #17
75. Shining example, indeed.
If only *more* places would throw homosexuals into prison. (but they do have a lot of political dissidents to keep them company, I suppose)

And the censorship! Ohh, how I wish some other nations would learn from Castro's example of how to criminalize thought, and have book burnings of their own.

You know, most of those things that I fear Bush will do/is doing to our country, Castro has done to his own people for the last couple of decades. Sure I want national health care, but other than that, the Cuban gov't can keep the rest of their "ever evolving political system" and go fuck themselves.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #75
82. I'd really like to learn more about how Cuba throws homosexual people
in prison. I would hope you've got a link so we can learn more about this. Otherwise, it'll be necessary to believe what we know to be true, and that is that THIS DOESN'T HAPPEN. You are attempting a drive-by post.


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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #82
83. Do you know who Reinaldo Arenas is?
Perhaps you should.

And while you're at it, you might read up a bit on how Castro got the HIV/AIDS rate so low in Cuba. It sure worked to lower the rate of infection, so I'm assuming that you would like the same techniques used here?

And yes, despite your all-caps pronouncement, IT DOES HAPPEN. Article 303a of Cuban law criminalizes "Publicly Manifested Homosexuality".


(Drive by post ended)
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #83
85. How about Gay Cuba? Would you like a tour of gay Cuba?
Considering how homophobic the Latino culture happens to be, I think Cuba is actually making great strides in LGBT issues compared to the rest of the Latino community, including the Latino community in the United States.

Latino LGBTs have a lot of barriers to overcome no matter what country they live in, Cuba is no exception.

I will also point out that there is homophobia in the Democratic Party, which still persists to this very day. Other political parties, such as Communist Party USA, Socialist Party USA, Socialist Equality Party, and others have been slow to condemn homophobia in their own ranks, but condemn they have!

Gay Cuba Resources and Information

http://www.gay-cuba.com /

Fidel Castro on Homosexuality

Excerpted from Face to Face with Fidel Castro: A Conversation with Tomas Borge, Ocean Press, 1992, 139-141.


Tomas Borge: What is your view of homosexuality?

Fidel Castro: There is still machismo in our people. I believe a much lower level than any other people in Latin America, but there is still machismo. That has been part of the idiosyncrasy of our people for centuries. I won't deny that, at a certain time, this machista thing influenced the attitude toward homosexuality. I, personally, do not suffer from that sort of phobia against homosexuals. I have never been in favor of, nor promoted, nor supported policy against homosexuals. That corresponded, I would say, to a particular stage and is very much associated with that legacy, with machismo.

Tomas Borge: Many people think that their is sexual discrimination in Cuba. What are your views on homosexuality..?

Fidel Castro: We inherited male chauvinism-and many other bad habits-from the conquistadores. That was an historical legacy..We have made a real advance-we can see it, especially in the young people, but we can't say that sexual discrimination has been completely wiped out and we mustn't lower our guard...

For example, men's and women's conduct was judged by different standards. We had that for years in the Party, and I waged battles and argued a lot about it. If a man was unfaithful, it didn't constitute a problem or a worry, but if a woman was unfaithful, that became the subject of discussion in the Party nucleus. There was a double standard for judging the sexual relations of men and women. I had to fight hard, very hard, against those deep-rooted prejudices. There wasn't any doctrine or education in this regard, instead, there were many male chauvinist concepts and prejudices in our society...

I am not going to deny that, at one point, male chauvinism also influenced our attitude toward homosexuality. I, myself, you're asking me for my own opinion-don't have any phobia toward homosexuals. I've never felt that phobia and I've never promoted or supported policies against homosexuals I would say that it corresponded to a given stage and is largely associated with that legacy of chauvinism. I try to have a more humane, scientific approach to the problem. Often, it becomes a tragedy, because of what the parents think-some parents whose son is homosexual turn it into a tragedy. It's really too bad they react this way and make it a tragedy for the individual, as well.

I don't consider homosexuality to be a phenomenon of degeneration. I've always had a more rational approach, considering it to be one of the natural aspects and tendencies of human beings which should be respected...It would be good if the families themselves had another mentality, another approach, when a circumstance of this nature occurs. I am absolutely opposed to any form of repression, contempt, scorn, or discrimination with regard to homosexuals. That's what I think.

http://www.gaymexico.com.mx/articuloanterior/cuba.html
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #85
90. Wow! Very cool post, I.G. The interview with Fidel Castro was excellent.
Edited on Tue Oct-11-05 12:54 AM by Judi Lynn
It's very easy to understand. More people should read it.

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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #85
198. Yeah, nice try.
Homopobia in Latin America is one thing. Castro's history of treatment of Gay Cubans is another.

There is no excuse.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #83
86. Holy smokes! When I read your post the first time, I thought you wrote
"Do you know WHERE Reinaldo Arenas is? Perhaps you should." Help. Death threat. Who's coming to get me? Orlando Bosch? Luis Posada Carriles? More of the Miami Cuban bombers?

I just reread it, and see I'm safe for the time being.

Here's something from a long piece I found in a search which is quite interesting, although it is long:
In 1975, the Cuban Supreme Court overturned Resolution Number 3 of the Council of Culture, predecessor of the Ministry of Culture. This rule had been used to implement the anti-gay declarations of the 1971 cultural congress, setting "parameters" limiting employment of homosexuals in the arts and education.

Also in 1975, after extensive popular debate and discussion, Cuba adopted its Family Code. Among other wide-ranging changes, it called for equal sharing of child-care and other domestic responsibilities by men and women, further institutionalizing female equality as a goal of the new society

In 1979, the new Cuban penal code decriminalized homosexuality.
(snip)

Soon afterwards, Cuba's Ministry of Culture republished Schnabl's popular Man and Woman in Intimacy, which devoted an entire chapter to homosexuality. The book first appeared in 1979. It enumerates and rejects a series of superstitious claims purporting to reveal the supposed cause of homosexuality. "All these 'theories' --that up until recently were supported by certain specialists," Schnabl wrote, "have not the slightest scientific foundation."

Against Anti-gay Discrimination

Gays do not "suffer from homosexuality," Schnabl explained, "but rather from the difficulties stemming from their condition in social life," that is, anti-gay prejudice. She explicitly opposed, in this government-published book, any and all sanctions against gays.
(snip)

Gutirrez's remonstration of Almendros for willingly falsifying in his "documentary" the duration and character of the UMAP could readily be applied to Schnable. "Almendros knows full well that most infamous lies can be fabricated out of half-truths," Gutirrez wrote. "He knows, for example, that the UMAP, the work camps where a large number of homosexuals went to do their military service, were a mistake and led to a scandal that fortunately ended with their disappearance and a policy of rectification." The Village Voice and the Militant reprinted the legendary Cuban director's article shortly after its appearance in Cuba.
(snip/...)
http://www.blythe.org/arenas-e3.html

From what I can gather, it's an ongoing process, and Arenas was by far, not the only gay in Cuba, and there are definitely a lot of gay people there now. I have read and I have been told that the negativity toward gays actually comes from the ultra-religious Catholic, macho Spanish culture originally, as it's very much a wicked problem among the older Cuban "exiles" in Miami, which you probably know already.



Here's a story from Miami about a Miami politician/@$$#### who had his son puncture the tires on an RV owned by a man with campaign stickers supporting a candidate there who happened to be gay, in the church parking lot, after threatening to beat him up after church:
We were hoping to have a candidate who could unite the community. He joined an organization called Citizens 4 America, one of several groups formed in response to the perceived anti-American sentiment running through factions of the Cuban-American community. He even began volunteering on behalf of Jay Love's campaign for county mayor.

After continued prodding by Father Hopkins and other church members, Buonamia and his wife agreed in late August to come back to Saint Philomena. On Sunday, September 3, the couple, having spent the early morning campaigning for Love, drove to church in their recreational vehicle, which had several large Jay Love for Mayor signs affixed to it. Buonamia says he warned Father Hopkins that he would be driving the RV, and the priest said it would be fine. Buonamia parked in the rear of the church parking lot. I was trying to obscure it as much as possible, he says. We knew it wasn't Love territory, but it never dawned on me that people would get physical over this.

Soon after arriving, Marisa Buonamia was accosted inside the church by Eladio Armesto-Garcia, a former Republican state representative, who served in Tallahassee from 1992 until 1994. He told her to move the RV immediately. She refused. I told him: This is a democracy,' recalls Marisa, who hails from Panama. Next Armesto-Garcia confronted Buonamia.

He was very agitated, Buonamia remembers. He starts screaming at me in Spanish that Jay Love is a homosexual and that I'm supporting homosexuals and that I have to get my RV out of there. I told him it is not important to me what he thinks. I'm here to go to Mass, and I asked him to leave me alone. He then screamed at me in church that he was going to beat the shit out of me when Mass was over.

Armesto-Garcia is a member of the Christian Coalition and chairman of a group called Take Back Miami-Dade, whose goal is to repeal the so-called gay-rights ordinance passed by the county commission two years ago. The ordinance, which is designed to protect individuals from discrimination based on sexual orientation, was enacted through the efforts of the nonprofit SAVE Dade political-action committee.

He mentioned that he was with the Christian Coalition, Buonamia continues. He was saying that SAVE Dade was a bunch of homosexual perverts who are for abortion, and that Jay Love is one of them. He was doing the homophobic routine. Armesto-Garcia stormed off. Buonamia grew nervous and went looking for him a few minutes later. He found Armesto-Garcia in the back of the church finishing a phone call to his son, Eladio Jos Armesto.
(snip/...)
http://www.miaminewtimes.com/issues/2000-09-21/defede.h...

Here are some LTTE's written about this article:
http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:RwSrVMzc8gIJ:www.mi...

Here are some either gay-owned places to stay in Cuba, or gay-friendly places I just saw on the INTERNETS. From what I can gather, "Feedel" Castro is not hiding under any of the beds:
http://gayjourney.com/hotels/cuba.htm

There's a ton of stuff to post on the subject. The only thing missing is adequate time to sit and look for it.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #86
87. Cubans in Miami are less tolerant of LGBTs than Cubans in Cuba
Edited on Tue Oct-11-05 12:08 AM by IndianaGreen
Let's not downplay the strong homophobic and sexist character of Latino culture.

The most progressive Latino country towards LGBTs is Spain, and that is only thanks to its Socialist government. The evil Spanish Catholic Church, which gave birth to Opus Dei, is going bonkers calling gay marriage an abomination and attacking the Socialist government for legalizing gay marriage.

And let us not forget that Kerry/Edwards opposed marriage rights for LGBT, and they don't come from a Latino culture, so what was their excuse?
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #87
89. I have a feeling when visiting posters fall back on "treatment of gays,"
after using "Human Rights Watch," etc. and "dissidents," they are going through their freep list, hoping to strike on a day when no one's around who knows anything about this!
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 07:39 AM
Response to Reply #89
127. The same posters that oppose marriage rights for LGBTs
and that find LGBT campaigns for full rights annoying. Anyone that believes in any fundamentalist version of Christianity, be it Protestant or the Vatican version of Roman Catholicism, is against LGBT rights as they are against women rights.

I remember when the late Pope John Paul went to Cuba. What was his biggest gripe? It wasn't Fidel! JPII biggest gripe waa against freedom of religion, particularly the open practice of Santeria by many nominal Catholics. The Cuban Revolution eliminated the primacy of the Catholic Church which is still so prevalent throughout Latin America. Booo Hooo!
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #127
143. Stupid "freedom of religion"
So you find the idea of being able to freely practice your religion w/out being punished by the state to be rather silly? And anyone who complains about it is a crybaby?

Would you approve if the U.S. gov't made Catholicism illegal? How about if we outlawed Islam?
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #143
147. You missed IG's point entirely.
IG is NOT saying what you are suggesting.

IG pointed out that JPII had a problem with CUBA'S freedom of religion, and gave the example of Catholics practicing Santeria, which the Vatican does not like being practiced by their flock.

IG's point was that the Catholic church itself didn't like how much religious freedom there is in Cuba, and the point apparently went right over your head.

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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #147
197. Wow!
There's now an alternative universe going on here at DU.

Scary.
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #89
141. "fall back" the treatment of dissidents!?
Jeebus H Christ!

I will *never* understand why it is that certain people are willing to justify/minimize/explain away the most revolting behavior of a government simply because that government is acting in the name of socialism.

Nuts to that. You can keep your totalitarian dictatorships.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #87
196. Thanks for the claim.
Unfortunately, based on local policies, your claim doesn't wash.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #86
98. The son of the man who threatened to harm the church-goer in the story
above was found to have falsified signatures on petitions in his attempt, through his group, Take Back Miami to overturn a law which assured Miami gays non-discrimination. His sister also was involved in managing the political group.
Rights that included protections based on sexual orientation were restored in 1998 after a new ordinance was passed into law. However, Take Back Miami-Dade, the group lead by Christian fanatics, forced a referendum vote with a late 2000 petition drive that, while successful, triggered a criminal inquiry that recently led to the arrest of four group members. (see "More Arrests in Miami Voter Fraud Scandal.")

The Miami-Dade Elections office flagged at least 16 violations of campaign finance laws during a recent review of Take Back Miami-Dade's spending reports, according to a report in the Miami Herald.

In August, members of the Florida Christian Coalition were charged with forging signatures, illegal notarizing of documents and other petition irregularities.
(snip/...)
http://gfn.com/archives/story.phtml?sid=12187

If you'll check this link I found in google, looking for Eladio Armesto, the Cuban dork's son, you'll see the collection at Free Republic actually sides AGAINST the gay community in Miami. This is very interesting....

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b5ee664790b.htm
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #83
133. Nice try, but no go
The Publicly Manifested Homosexuality law you refer to is relating to prostitution. Prostitution is illegal in Cuba, both for the prostitute and the john, both heterosexual and homosexual.


AIDS/HIV invfection is low in Cuba because of a much hailed national public safe sex awareness campaign that starts in school for youths and continues throughout the Cuban media.

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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #133
142. Forced quarantine doesn't bother you?
Because that sure as hell was a technique that Castro used to prevent the spread of the disease.

If our gov't did that, I'm betting that you would be outraged. And you would be right.

But when its done somewhere else, you seem rather willing to overlook it. Please explain.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #142
148. You've changed the goalposts.
First you claim, without evidence, that homosexuals are tossed in prison just for being gay.

When you are shown that you are wrong, you change the argument.

Not a terribly honest debate tactic, I must say.

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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #148
149. Not so much
So the Cuban law that is used to jail homosexuals isn't considered evidence?

And I was responding to the earlier poster's claims Cubas progressive fight against HIV/AIDS when I commented on forced quarantine.

Do you have something to offer the discussion?
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #149
152. I've had this discussion many times, I'm just observing mostly.
Edited on Tue Oct-11-05 03:36 PM by Zhade
JudiLynn and Mika are, like always, holding their own quite well.

And yes, you did change the goalposts, from "gays get thrown in jail" to "the quarantine is bad", with no mention of the fact that you were shown gays DON'T get thrown in prison for being gay.

As far as the laws on the books, as I've said before with regards to the U.S., there are laws in some states that horses can't wear pants.

Not every law is followed, or even remembered. And, again, you offered no link to this law or any of your other claims in that post.

(Also, see post #147.)

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moddemny Donating Member (400 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #152
178. "JudiLynn and Mika are, like always, holding their own quite well."
If you call cutting and pasting articles from recent searches holding your own. I guess it doesn't matter if there are contradictions in there articles (about the points they are making) or if they help disprove their points (read parts of the thread below and if you follow the thread very, very carefully you'll see what I mean). Throw enough sh*t on the wall and see what sticks.
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #142
175. Link: Cuba's AIDS patient #1 dies - by Karen Lee Wald
Not going to "debate" the posters who constantly shift goalposts.

Take the time to read this article, which does a pretty good job at describing the sanitoriums set up for AIDS victims (at a time before AIDS/HIV had been identified).

Cuba's AIDS patient #1 dies
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/43b/011.html

Reynaldo Morales wasn't the first person in Cuba to test positive for HIV. Nor was he the first to die of AIDS. But through a quirk of fate, and the universal propensity of hospitals to give all patients case numbers, when Reynaldo Morales returned from military service in Angola in early 1986 he became Patient #1 at Cuba's newly created AIDS sanitorium.

Morales was married, with a 9-year-old son, and was working as a driver for the daily newspaper "Granma," when he answered the call for internationalist volunteers to serve in Angola in 1984. When he returned two years later, AIDS had just become a reality for Cuba, with one person dead, another HIV positive, and the beginnings of contact tracing underway. The Health Ministry proposed testing all citizens returning from extended periods abroad, and the military were among the first to be tested.

It was to be the first of many "firsts" for Reynaldo.

On February 10, 1986 Reynaldo Morales was the first of the returning volunteers to be admitted to the Naval Hospital.

On April 30, he was part of the first group of 23 patients who opened the new AIDS sanitorium in Santiago de las Vegas. His patient ID: number one.

In 1989, Reynaldo Morales was among the first group of patients to begin working within the sanitorium. From chauffeur he graduated to mechanic, carpenter and electrician.

Later that year, he and his wife Maria Julia (who became infected shortly after his return, before he knew he was carrying the deadly virus) were the first patients at the AIDS facility to be offered the option of returning to their home and jobs as outpatients.

A few months later, they were the first of many to turn this option down. Life had become too precarious outside the sanitorium, the medical and psychological benefits of Cuban-style hospice care too great. The sanitorium -- a sizeable community of attractive, modern one-family homes and duplexes set among lush tropical gardens on an old rural estate outside Santiago de las Vegas, a small town on the outskirts of Havana -- had become home to Reynaldo and his family.

Here, he was able to put his many mechanical skills to use, fixing everything from cars to electric irons.

Here, his wife --like Reynaldo, a 20-year veteran of the "Granma" newspaper, where she had been an office worker -- became the first president of the neighborhood council set up in the sanitorium to duplicate the local CDRs and Popular Councils that are the backbone of Cuba's participatory democracy.

Here they had friends, felt useful, kept busy. Reynaldo was a wise-guy, jokester, a good friend, someone who was always ready to lend a helping hand, to fix what was broken. Maria Julia was the serious one in the family, liked and admired by patients and neighbors as a leader, a mediator, a trusted spokesperson.

To some people, the AIDS sanitorium was viewed as a prison. Not to Reynaldo and Maria Julia. Here, they lived a bucolic life Monday through Friday, going home on weekends to meet up with their teenage son, who would arrive a few hours after they did from the boarding school where he was training in judo while finishing high school. (His scholarship to the sports school was a lifelong dream granted immediately by the Ministry of Education when his parents fell ill.)

Although not without its problems, difficulties in adaptation, and certain loss of privacy and personal liberty, sanitorium life was nevertheless in many ways ideal for Reynaldo and Maria Julia. Until Reynaldo became sick.


Much more at.. http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/43b/011.html


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guajira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #83
140. Reinaldo Arenas Died 15 Years Ago
Edited on Tue Oct-11-05 09:27 AM by guajira
He came to the US in 1980 during the Mariel Boatlift, got AIDS here in the US and died in New York in 1990.

In recent years Cuba, like other countries, has become much more tolerant of gays.

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NecessaryOnslaught Donating Member (691 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #82
84. Heres your link Judi-sorry to burst your bubble... it happens!
http://www.galha.org/glh/213/cuba.html

The Article presents a balanced view, but there are many other, far more daming pieces of evidence to collaborate the Cuban government's unjust policy towards homosexuals.

I beleive the articles fourth paragraph also makes a nice retort to the employment/healthcare issues raised concering socialist Cuba:

"Socialist Cuba may have the highest standards of health, education and housing of any Latin American country, and a literacy rate exceeding that of the United States. Great! But what is the point of excellent social welfare policies if people are not free and human rights are not respected?"
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #84
88. And here you go, a little light reading:
Lumsden attributes the persecution of gays to a combination of factors, including the Spanish colonial legacy of machismo, or male domination of women, and contempt for effeminate men (maricones). Such prejudices, he points out, may be found as well in other parts of Latin America, where cultural values are similar to Cubas.

Another element contributing to Cubas past anti-gay policies was that for a time, the government adopted the Stalinist position, practiced in the Soviet Union, that homosexuality is a form of bourgeois decadence.

Lumsden asserts that since the mid-1970s, systematic discrimination against gays has greatly diminished. The last gasp of institutionally promoted homophobia, he says, occurred during the 1980 Mariel exodus, when government propaganda singled out the large number of gays among the 10,000 Cubans who left the country.

Controversial AIDS Program

Lumsden disputes the claim made by foreign critics that Cubas policy of quarantining HIV/AIDS patients in sanatoriums, which began in the 1980s and lasted until 1994, was motivated by anti-gay bigotry. He points out that the program was consistent with the governments radical response to prior epidemics and that the regime has not scapegoated gays for AIDS.
{snip/...)
http://www.geocities.com/youth4sa/cubagays.html
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NecessaryOnslaught Donating Member (691 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #88
96. goodpost
it would seem that both webpages collaborate each other though. Like the USA, it appears that full civil liberties for lgbt's remains in limbo in Cuba.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #84
99. Here's a biography of your author you might appreciate reading.
PETER TATCHELL - ANTI-MILITARIST

Peter Tatchell was born in Melbourne, Australia, in 1952. Opposed to United States and Australian aggression against the people of Vietnam, in the late 1960s he became active in the National Campaign Against Conscription, Draft Resister's Union, Christians For Peace, and the Vietnam Moratorium Campaign, helping to organise the huge "Stop Work To Stop The War" demonstrations which immobilised the city of Melbourne in 1970.

Unwilling to be drafted to serve in a genocidal war, and faced with the alternative of two years imprisonment, Peter Tatchell went into exile in London in 1971. Five days after his arrival, he joined the newly-formed Gay Liberation Front and, a little later, the Troops Out Movement, supporting its campaign for an end to the British military occupation of north-east Ireland. Since 1971, he has been involved in nearly every major campaign for homosexual human rights in Britain.

After completing college, Peter Tatchell began working as journalist, specialising in undercover investigative reporting. In 1978, to gather material for a book exposing the class ridden, anti-democratic and imperialistic culture of the British armed forces, he applied for an officer's commission in the Royal Artillery, participated in training exercises in artillery and tank warfare, and was offered a place at the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst (which he declined).

On the basis of these experiences and subsequent research, Peter Tatchell wrote Democratic Defence: A Non-Nuclear Alternative (GMP, London, 1985). Arguing for a radical democratisation and de-imperialisation of the armed forces, this book set out ideas on the themes of non-nuclear and nonprovocative defence, civil rights for military personnel, community-based citizen's armies, and alternative methods of defence such non-violent civilian resistance.
(snip/...)
http://www.petertatchell.net/biography/anti-militarist....
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #8
22. If the US had to endure the same embargo we had on Cuba or Iraq
we would be eating our own shit and drinking our urine to stay alive!

The faux pride of America will be her undoing.
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NorCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #22
154. I've said this many times!
People always use Cuba's bad economy/problems as an example of how/why socialism doesn't work.

Well, if we actually let them control their own economy, the country might be completely different! It's the US embargos that hold the most responsibility for Cuba's shaky economy, and until we remove them and give it about 50 years or so to recover, NOTHING can be said against their economy WITHOUT bringing up the fact that our country has single-handedly shattered their country.

It's useless to debate ANYTHING after that fact comes to light!
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moddemny Donating Member (400 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #154
167. "People always use Cuba's bad economy/problems as an example of..."
Edited on Tue Oct-11-05 06:16 PM by moddemny
how/why socialism doesn't work"

People use the example that almost all Communist economies are failures not just Cuba. I am not for the embargo but what the pro-Castro folks forget to tell you is how Cuba had massive amounts of Soviet aid up until the 1990s to prop up their economy, a pretty good counter balance to the US embargo and yet even in the 60s, 70s, 80, it was still no socialist utopia.
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #167
174. What matters for the sake of drawing conclusions: Cuba is tampered with
Edited on Tue Oct-11-05 07:57 PM by K-W
The fact that they also got some aid for a time whilest having the US wage economic and terrorist war against them is barely relevant to whether or not US actions have intereferred with the direction of Cuba's development to a point where it can not possibly be considered an example of anything.

Who the fuck knows what would have happened post revolution if we had left them alone, but what matters is that we will never know. Massive US intervention has spoiled the specimen. We cant definitively conclude anything about how Cuba's particular method and ideology of revolution would have worked in a secure nation with open trade. As far as making general conclusions about all methods and ideologies that have ever been held or used by someone calling themselves a communist, doing so would be idiotic.

People use the example that almost all Communist economies are failures not just Cuba.

Considering that every movement, party, nation, or leader that has ever called him/herself a communist has been a target of Western government and local elite aggression and undermining; considering that many of the governments that called themselves communist had no intention in the world of ever creating communism; considering that most communist movements failed to ever achieve power; considering that most communist ideas and philosophies have never been implemented; and considering that no nation has ever actually operated communally or even seriously attempted to, would you think it reasonable to argue that we can conclude from generalizing the oftentimes unlike economies of nations run by people claiming to be communists together and conclude that all communist economics has been discredited?
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NorCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #8
153. Socialized Medicine will do wonders for the quality of your doctors!
That, and since profit margins aren't important, they're willing to help everyone. THAT's how Cuba has a lower infant mortality rate than the U.S., and for no other reason than that!
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #153
176. Dedication trumps greeds for sure.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #153
209. "For no other reason than that."
So you've really spent some time studying public health then, eh?
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awoke_in_2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-09-05 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. in response to your picture...
which i love, by the way, "I do not run from women, Mandrake, but i do deny them my essence".
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-09-05 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. You are well educated!
A fine product of the American education system!

Given the choice between Socialism and the barbarism of capitalism, I choose Socialism. I guess the conditioning in my school system failed to take hold.
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NecessaryOnslaught Donating Member (691 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #7
95. .
How do you know if I am an American or not? You have no idea actually, you formed a presupposition vis-a-vis my nationality based on your own bias'. I could very well be a product of the education system in Cuba that is lauded in this thread. Be careful of drawing conclusions based on insufficiant data.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #7
193. So there's no barbarism in "socialism"?
Edited on Tue Oct-11-05 11:38 PM by HuckleB
I guess Ivan Klima's just a big liar then? And Reinaldo Arenas? And George Orwell? And Czeslaw Milosz? And Mikhail Bulgakov? And Milan Kundera? And...

Hmmmmmm.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #193
199. Keep enjoying your delusions about capitalism
apparently the health dosages of capitalism that Bush advocates are not enough.

Arenas was suffering from AIDS-related dementia, and died penniless and forgotten in the glorious United States of America, just as thousands of other victims of AIDS.

Fidel will be the first to admit that mistakes have been made, but Fidel always took corrective action. Here in this wonderful free country of ours, we can't get any of our "free and democratic" political leaders to admit that Iraq was a mistake and that troops have to be withdrawn at once, or to even recognize that their vote for PATRIOT was foolhardy.

"An expert on Arenas's work, Dr Williamson said the film 'rehashes a very old, distorted story' and claimed the poet was delusional, if not suffering from outright dementia, when he wrote Before Night Falls during the final stages of Aids."

"He added: 'Cuba has changed dramatically since then, it is by far the most progressive country in Latin America as regards gay rights ... Everyone there recognises that mistakes were made - very big mistakes, in fact. There were camps for about 18 months in the 1960s for those who refused to do military service, and it is true that many gay and transvestite prostitutes were sent there."

http://myweb.lsbu.ac.uk/~stafflag/reinaldoarenas.html

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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 03:49 AM
Response to Reply #199
200. I just read your link: it's excellent.Here's the Guardian piece mentioned
in your article:
Cuban poet film condemned

Movie wins plaudits, but protesters say depiction of persecuted gay artist plays into hands of CIA

Fiachra Gibbons, arts correspondent
Monday May 7, 2001
The Guardian


Cuba sees itself as the progressive David to the United States' reactionary Goliath, but a film about its most outrageous writer has sparked a row by portraying the revolution's past as repressive and homophobic.
Before Night Falls, based on the autobiography dictated by Reinaldo Arenas as he lay dying of Aids in a squalid New York apartment 11 years ago, is accused of playing into the hands of the CIA by presenting a "distorted picture".
(snip)

poet who was a local publishing sensation by the time he was 20, Arenas was initially a darling of the revolution that freed Cuba in 1959. But, as the authorities tried to clean up the remnants of Havana's gigantic sex tourism trade, his boasts of sex with a variety of farmyard animals during his bucolic rural childhood did not go down well. But it was his blithe disregard for the age of consent that really landed him in trouble.
(snip)

"Arenas was an amazing person, and a great magical realist. His life was fantastic in every way. He undoubtedly suffered because of what happened during that period in Cuba, which was wrong; but if you elevate what he wrote and what the film presents as an actual record of events, you are falsifying history.

"If Arenas even did one third of what he claims to have done in his book, he would have been locked up for life in any other country. The man was outrageous. His prison sentence was basically for having sex with young boys."
(snip)

"Cuba had many deep social problems to cope with after the revolution, and no one is pretending there aren't still other human rights issues in Cuba today. But the Cubans have come to terms with gay issues in an unprecedented way."

This view is shared by Amnesty International, which says Cuba now has quite a good record on gay rights.
(snip)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/cuba/story/0,11983,712614,00....
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #199
205. In other words...
Edited on Wed Oct-12-05 08:37 AM by HuckleB
instead of addressing what I wrote, you chose to respond to a phantom post.

Interesting way of "discussing."

There may be delusions at play here, but that would be in the very distorted view of Castro you are attempting to deploy, while choosing to ignore the entire histories of his long-gone cronies.
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Goldensilence Donating Member (213 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. ....wake up
" ..inevitably allow a small group of intelligencia/state planners to ditate norms to the masses,often through coersion and state sponsered propoganda."

Wait....isn't that going on now as we speak? Spare me the usual capitalist brainwashing.

"It does not adequetly protect the rights of the individual in a society."

ummmm really? Well...ask Norway or Denmark about how well their individual citizens are taken care of...hell ask Canada with it's EVIL universal healthcare plan.

lol this country is so brain washed....

yes we are so free.
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arcos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. Norway and Denmark are not socialist. they are capitalist...
They are social democracies, not socialist states. That is, they are capitalist, although they use several socialistic institutions to mitigate some of the problems of capitalism.
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #15
42. Yes, but s/he was referring to those institutions
That was the point.

Also, if you look at socialist states of Cuba, Kerala and elsewhere, socialism works exceptionally well.
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arcos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #42
49. I prefer Denmark or Norway, not Cuba...
Edited on Mon Oct-10-05 05:14 PM by arcos
Or in that case, my own country, Costa Rica... Although I'm simpathetic towards socialism, I don't believe it works the way it should (at least in Cuba's case... lots of things have been exaggerated, but it is a fact that civil liberties are not what they should be there).

I'd rather have a mixed system, capitalism with lots of socialist influence.
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #49
56. That's very fair
El Salvador is a good example. The reforms have helped the people a great deal, but not nearly enough. If it became completely socialist, I am convinced it would be much better.

On Cuban civil liberties, the "violations" are very debatable, IMO. Those dissidents were being funded and sponsored by the US, something that is illegal in America as well. When you consider what the US has been trying to do to Cuba, it is quite reasonable for Cuba to do what it did.

Personally, I really like what has been done in Cuba (I know less about Kerala, but it is a fact that it is much better than most other parts of India, and that's coming from an Indian friend who's been there). It is perhaps the ideal model for other third world countries and perhaps any country which needs to give its people fair treatment. You must agree that the social capitalism takes a good economy to implement with success, and that requires capitalist or imperialist, which means virtually always immoral, policies.

Just my personal opinion.
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #10
76. Do you understand the irony...
...of being a proponent of Northern European style socialism and having an anarchy symbol as your icon?

You do understand that those two systems (or lack thereof) are antithetical to each other, right? And you're ok with the fact that anarchists don't get to have universal health care?
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NecessaryOnslaught Donating Member (691 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #10
93. Wake up
Its a good thing goldensilence woke me up, I thought I had written a fairly evenhanded post back there--Nice to see I am immediately thrown into the "brainwashed capitalist camp" before any intelligent dialogue could ensue. Such a reaction seems far more indicative of a brainwashed or closed mind then attempts at meaningful discussion.

I find it poignant that you do not cite Cuba on your list of socialist countries that do a good job of protecting the individual rights of their citizens,(let us set aside the fact that your list reveals a complete misunderstanding of the concept of "socialism" and the manner in which it is used in contemporary European political science, for now) and that you only cite examples of social welfare. Like a subsequent post has already discussed, these social welfare programs were welded onto countries, (denmark, norway, canada) with pre-existing democratic frameworks, and are designed to ameliorate some of the very problems many post's on the site see in capitalist societies.

The United States has it fair share of social welfare programs as well: medicade,food stamps, unemployment, Social Security(you all saw that word right? "Social".) And if people would get out and vote more, or better yet run for political office, more of these social welfare programs will be put into practice in the USA as well. Universal health-care will happen in the USA,it just has to be pushed for.

Supporters of socialism will always cite the ability of that political philosophy to provide excellent general medical, education, and employment benefits to its citizens, while glossing over its poor management of civil liberties. Proponents of capitalism do just the opposite, stressing civil liberties and deemphasizing the rampant social inequities brought about by the system. A combination of the best features of the two, is probably preferred to either. But we will not get there without dialogue free from idealogical constraints.
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guruoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #5
13. With totalitarian socialism, workers become
slaves to the state.
Under totalitarian capitalism,
workers become slaves to
big business.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #13
23. Cute words, the sort of crap one hears from Young American for Freedom
except that they don't see anything wrong with workers being slave to big business.

There is no such thing as totalitarian socialism, it is an oxymoron.

The dictatorship of the proletariat means exactly what it says: the power of the working class cannot be challenged by the capitalists. Dictatorship of the proletariat is the perfect democracy for all decisions and all power is made by the workers. Power flows upward from the democratically elected worker's committees at the factory floor, to popular committees elected in each city block.

Stalin's bureaucratic cronyism is often confused with Socialism. It wasn't.

BTW, we do have a version of Stalin's bureaucratic cronyism in America, it is the new National Security Personnel System (NSPS) that is currently being implemented at the Homeland Security Department and the Defense Department. Loyalty to the "Leader," ass-kissing to the max, damned the Constitution. Soon coming to an FBI Office near to you.
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guruoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #23
146. Nope
It has to do with application, not ideology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarianism
Totalitarianism is a typology employed by political scientists to describe modern regimes in which the state regulates nearly every aspect of public and private behavior. Totalitarian regimes mobilize entire populations in support of the state and a political ideology, and do not tolerate activities by individuals or groups such as labor unions, churches and political parties that are not directed toward the state's goals. They maintain themselves in power by means of secret police, propaganda disseminated through the state-controlled mass media, regulation and restriction of free discussion and criticism, and widespread use of terror tactics. Critics of the concept contend that the term lacks explanatory power. They argue that governments which are often classified as totalitarian may not be as monolithic as they appear from the outside, since they may hide a political process in which several groups, such as the army, political leaders, industrialists, and others, compete for power and influence.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #23
195. Ah, yes.
The old "but libertarianism has never actually been tried" routine.

LOL!
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Ellen Forradalom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #5
97. Ok, so you propose what, exactly?
:shrug:
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arcos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #2
14. It's not "the left" that wants to impeach the President in Nicaragua...
It is the political elite, both left and right wing, that are now fighting with one of their own, President Enrique Bolaos.

Leaders of that political elite are VERY unpopular, and VERY corrupt.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 06:51 AM
Response to Reply #2
121. Why are movements that
promote putting people first always branded. They should be promoted.
Ironically Cuban socialism has decentralized power to people in communities more like the ancient Greek model of democracy whereas the US model patterns Rome.
I find Meiksins Wood's books very helpful these days. Time to put people first.
http://www.monthlyreview.org/origin.htm

http://www.isf.org.uk/ISFJournal/ISF2/isf2a5.htm
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #2
194. "Cuba has obviously been the bastion of equality in Latin America..."
Umm. Sure. Unless you're gay. Unless you hold a dissenting point of view. Unless...
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #194
211. I don't see you around the LGBT forum
I don't hear you complain about the gay bashing campaign by the Vatican, or the bipartisan attempts to suppress LGBT rights in America.

Your "concern" about gay rights in Cuba is just a smokescreen for your pro-CANF and reactionary agenda.

Do you support full equality for LGBTs, including the right to marry?

Do you decry the Pope's upcoming purge of celibate gay priests?

Cuba's record and struggles on a issue that has yet to win acceptance in Latin America, much less in the United States, are exemplary by comparison.

(chirp, chirp)
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #211
228. In other words, you have no actual response.
Edited on Thu Oct-13-05 01:05 AM by HuckleB
You are responding to another phantom post, something that is disingenuous at best.

I've never seen you a lot of places. And, guess what? I'm not making ridiculous assumptions based on that knowledge.

Pitiful. You should be ashamed.
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Kralizec Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-09-05 10:20 PM
Response to Original message
3. 
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moddemny Donating Member (400 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
11. F*ck Che......
.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 02:33 AM
Response to Reply #11
16. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
moddemny Donating Member (400 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #16
25. The chorus from the small amount of Che Supporters......
Edited on Mon Oct-10-05 03:11 PM by moddemny
..... is not as loud as the roar that is going to come from the bulk of the 1.3 million Cubans living in U.S. who want to see the product of Che's legacy and Castro gone. Too bad the voices of the Cuban people (who still live in Cuba) and their true feelings cannot be heard because they are silenced. It's easy to make a myth out of a man when his victims can't speak out.

CUBA'S REPRESSIVE MACHINERY
Human Rights Forty Years After the Revolution
http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/cuba /

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/03/10/cuba10306.htm


Socialism may have many faces and the supposed socialism going on in Cuba is not of the benevolent kind nor is Che Guevarra the individual to be looked to as an example of it . All the talk of "totalitarian socialism" (or Communism or whatever else you want to call it) is only bunk to the people who did not have to live and suffer under it.
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saskatoon Donating Member (574 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. the 1.3 million cubans?
yes the bastards didn't have the guts to stay and fight for their country but came over here and tried to run ours---took jobs from out locals and I for one Despise them. Go back where you came!
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. They love to boast that when they arrived here (with U.S. taxpayers'
Edited on Mon Oct-10-05 04:23 PM by Judi Lynn
hard-earned money paving their way through a smorgasbord of benefits not available to any other nationality) Miami was a "sleepy little fishing village," which they transformed into a "world-class city."

They don't seem to acknowledge that the U.S. Census Bureau has, on several occasions named Miami as the Unites States' "Poorest City in a Population Over 500,000." Through their unbearable corruption of city finances, and their manipulation of votes they have devastated the city budget, and helped themselves to the city's treasury, with stories coming out regularly, like city commissioners financing their children's new houses, a house full of furniture for themselves, ripping off their fellow Cuban tenants squatting in government-supported apartments through Section 8 housing allowances, running Medicare scams, you name it. Loathesome cultural group, the right-wing "exiles." Their elections have been so corrupt they have been deplored nation-wide long before the 2000 election.

They are a national joke.

On edit: I neglected to point out this extra "folding cash," "long green," "walking around money" they're using comes from the city treasury, or their own campaign funds, which is illegal.

The city of Miami had to drive a moving van to Commissioner Dr. Miriam Alonso's house and remove all her furniture she bought with the wrong money.

The owner of the Lincoln-Marti private schools in Miami, to which Elin Gonzalez was given a "scholarship," Dr. Demetrio Perez, Jr. has been tried and convicted of a host of federal charges for likewise filthy deeds.

The list goes on and on and on.

These right-wing ex-Cuban oligarchs are despicable.
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moddemny Donating Member (400 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. "They are a national joke."
Edited on Mon Oct-10-05 04:07 PM by moddemny
The same thing was said about the Irish, Jews, Italians. Real nice comments. A lot of new immigrants were denigrated when they came here and you are continuing that backward tradition. It's hypocrisy to celebrate Che and sh*t on Cubans at the same time. Many people put family above politics so when you insult the Cuban American you are insulting the people who live in Cuba as well (at least that's how they would take it).
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Baloney! n/t
Edited on Mon Oct-10-05 04:06 PM by Judi Lynn
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moddemny Donating Member (400 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. What's baloney?
That other immigrant groups weren't slandered when they first came here?
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. You didn't get this kind of behavior from "other immigrant groups:"


April 1976: Severely injured
WQBA news director Emilio Milian
is assisted after a car bomb
exploded beneath him


Mullin
The Burden of a Violent History
By Jim Mullin

Published: Thursday, April 20, 2000

~snip~
The following list of violent incidents I compiled from a variety of databases and news sources (a few come from personal experience). It is incomplete, especially in Miami's trademark category of bomb threats. Nor does it include dozens of acts of violence and murder committed by Cuban exiles in other U.S. cities and at least sixteen foreign countries. But completeness isn't the point. The point is to face the truth, no matter how difficult that may be. If Miami's Cuban exiles confront this shameful past -- and resolutely disavow it -- they will go a long way toward easing their neighbors' anxiety about a peaceful future.

1968 From MacArthur Causeway, pediatrician Orlando Bosch fires bazooka at a Polish freighter. (City of Miami later declares "Orlando Bosch Day." Federal agents will jail him in 1988.)

1972 Julio Iglesias, performing at a local nightclub, says he wouldn't mind "singing in front of Cubans." Audience erupts in anger. Singer requires police escort. Most radio stations drop Iglesias from playlists. One that doesn't, Radio Alegre, receives bomb threats.

1974 Exile leader Jos Elias de la Torriente murdered in his Coral Gables home after failing to carry out a planned invasion of Cuba.

1974 Bomb blast guts the office of Spanish-language magazine Replica.

1974 Several small Cuban businesses, citing threats, stop selling Replica.

1974 Three bombs explode near a Spanish-language radio station.

1974 Hector Diaz Limonta and Arturo Rodriguez Vives murdered in internecine exile power struggles.

1975 Luciano Nieves murdered after advocating peaceful coexistence with Cuba.

1975 Another bomb damages Replica's office.

1976 Rolando Masferrer and Ramon Donestevez murdered in internecine exile power struggles.

1976 Car bomb blows off legs of WQBA-AM news director Emilio Milian after he publicly condemns exile violence.

1977 Juan Jos Peruyero murdered in internecine exile power struggles.

1979 Cuban film Memories of Underdevelopment interrupted by gunfire and physical violence instigated by two exile groups.

1979 Bomb discovered at Padron Cigars, whose owner helped negotiate release of 3600 Cuban political prisoners.

1979 Bomb explodes at Padron Cigars.

1980 Another bomb explodes at Padron Cigars.

1980 Powerful anti-personnel bomb discovered at American Airways Charter, which arranges flights to Cuba.

1981 Bomb explodes at Mexican Consulate on Brickell Avenue in protest of relations with Cuba.

1981 Replica's office again damaged by a bomb.

1982 Two outlets of Hispania Interamericana, which ships medicine to Cuba, attacked by gunfire.

1982 Bomb explodes at Venezuelan Consulate in downtown Miami in protest of relations with Cuba.

1982 Bomb discovered at Nicaraguan Consulate.

1982 Miami Mayor Maurice Ferre defends $10,000 grant to exile commando group Alpha 66 by noting that the organization "has never been accused of terrorist activities inside the United States."

1983 Another bomb discovered at Replica.

1983 Another bomb explodes at Padron Cigars.

1983 Bomb explodes at Paradise International, which arranges travel to Cuba.

1983 Bomb explodes at Little Havana office of Continental National Bank, one of whose executives, Bernardo Benes, helped negotiate release of 3600 Cuban political prisoners.

1983 Miami City Commissioner Demetrio Perez seeks to honor exile terrorist Juan Felipe de la Cruz, accidentally killed while assembling a bomb. (Perez is now a member of the Miami-Dade County Public School Board and owner of the Lincoln-Mart private school where Elian Gonzalez is enrolled.)

1983 Gunfire shatters windows of three Little Havana businesses linked to Cuba.

1986 South Florida Peace Coalition members physically attacked in downtown Miami while demonstrating against Nicaraguan contra war.

1987 Bomb explodes at Cuba Envios, which ships packages to Cuba.

1987 Bomb explodes at Almacen El Espaol, which ships packages to Cuba.

1987 Bomb explodes at Cubanacan, which ships packages to Cuba.

1987 Car belonging to Bay of Pigs veteran is firebombed.

1987 Bomb explodes at Machi Viajes a Cuba, which arranges travel to Cuba.

1987 Bomb explodes outside Va Cuba, which ships packages to Cuba.

1988 Bomb explodes at Miami Cuba, which ships medical supplies to Cuba.

1988 Bomb threat against Iberia Airlines in protest of Spain's relations with Cuba.

1988 Bomb explodes outside Cuban Museum of Art and Culture after auction of paintings by Cuban artists.

1988 Bomb explodes outside home of Maria Cristina Herrera, organizer of a conference on U.S.-Cuba relations.

1988 Bomb threat against WQBA-AM after commentator denounces Herrera bombing.

1988 Bomb threat at local office of Immigration and Naturalization Service in protest of terrorist Orlando Bosch being jailed.

1988 Bomb explodes near home of Griselda Hidalgo, advocate of unrestricted travel to Cuba.

1988 Bomb damages Bele Cuba Express, which ships packages to Cuba.

1989 Another bomb discovered at Almacen El Espaol, which ships packages to Cuba.

1989 Two bombs explode at Marazul Charters, which arranges travel to Cuba.

1990 Another, more powerful, bomb explodes outside the Cuban Museum of Art and Culture.

1991 Using crowbars and hammers, exile crowd rips out and urinates on Calle Ocho "Walk of Fame" star of Mexican actress Veronica Castro, who had visited Cuba.

1992 Union Radio employee beaten and station vandalized by exiles looking for Francisco Aruca, who advocates an end to U.S. embargo.

1992 Cuban American National Foundation mounts campaign against the Miami Herald, whose executives then receive death threats and whose newsracks are defaced and smeared with feces.

1992 Americas Watch releases report stating that hard-line Miami exiles have created an environment in which "moderation can be a dangerous position."

1993 Inflamed by Radio Mamb commentator Armando Perez-Roura, Cuban exiles physically assault demonstrators lawfully protesting against U.S. embargo. Two police officers injured, sixteen arrests made. Miami City Commissioner Miriam Alonso then seeks to silence anti-embargo demonstrators: "We have to look at the legalities of whether the City of Miami can prevent them from expressing themselves."

1994 Human Rights Watch/Americas Group issues report stating that Miami exiles do not tolerate dissident opinions, that Spanish-language radio promotes aggression, and that local government leaders refuse to denounce acts of intimidation.

1994 Two firebombs explode at Replica magazine's office.

1994 Bomb threat to law office of Magda Montiel Davis following her videotaped exchange with Fidel Castro.

1996 Music promoter receives threatening calls, cancels local appearance of Cuba's La Orquesta Aragon.

1996 Patrons attending concert by Cuban jazz pianist Gonzalo Rubalcaba physically assaulted by 200 exile protesters. Transportation for exiles arranged by Dade County Commissioner Javier Souto.

1996 Firebomb explodes at Little Havana's Centro Vasco restaurant preceding concert by Cuban singer Rosita Fornes.

1996 Firebomb explodes at Marazul Charters, which arranges travel to Cuba.

1996 Arson committed at Tu Familia Shipping, which ships packages to Cuba.

1997 Bomb threats, death threats received by radio station WRTO-FM following its short-lived decision to include in its playlist songs by Cuban musicians.

1998 Bomb threat empties concert hall at MIDEM music conference during performance by 91-year-old Cuban musician Compay Segundo.

1998 Bomb threat received by Amnesia nightclub in Miami Beach preceding performance by Cuban musician Orlando "Maraca" Valle.

1998 Firebomb explodes at Amnesia nightclub preceding performance by Cuban singer Manoln.

1999 Violent protest at Miami Arena performance of Cuban band Los Van Van leaves one person injured, eleven arrested.

1999 Bomb threat received by Seville Hotel in Miami Beach preceding performance by Cuban singer Rosita Fornes. Hotel cancels concert.

January 26, 2000 Outside Miami Beach home of Sister Jeanne O'Laughlin, protester displays sign reading, "Stop the deaths at sea. Repeal the Cuban Adjustment Act," then is physically assaulted by nearby exile crowd before police come to rescue.

April 11, 2000 Outside home of Elian Gonzalez's Miami relatives, radio talk show host Scot Piasant of Portland, Oregon, displays T-shirt reading, "Send the boy home" and "A father's rights," then is physically assaulted by nearby exile crowd before police come to rescue.
(snip/...)
http://www.miaminewtimes.com/issues/2000-04-20/mullin.h...
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moddemny Donating Member (400 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. Ok, I'm not playing this game.
Edited on Mon Oct-10-05 04:32 PM by moddemny

My point was newly arrived immigrant groups have problems with labeling/slander, etc (the way you did in reply#32 and the genius before you in #29) when they come here. Then you post

"You didn't get this kind of behavior from "other immigrant groups:"

What do you want me to do? List the how the actions of some individuals/small groups helped to contribute to the stereotyping of the whole ethnic group?

The Italian mob was responsible for many killings (and bombings) and massive corruption in New York, Chicago, Philadelphia, Nevada...... Am I suppose to label all Italians mobsters? You want a list of all the crimes?

The Irish had their mob and gangs (the Westies and others), so did the Chinese, and Russians, the list goes on. Am I suppose to write a laundry list of their deeds to smear a whole ethnic group?

Jews had tons of labels and stereotypes thrown at them, I am not even going to touch that subject.


I am not going to get invovled in this type of ethnic debate on this level.

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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #41
46. Other groups do not claim responsibility for being able to deliver
the election to a deadly President, as did the right-wing "exiles" in 2000. Other groups aren't pampered, and catered to, like the right-wing "exiles."

The Cuban @$$####, little Jorge Mas Canosa was able to turn the Miami Herald from being a normal publication to one which grovels trying to please his countrymen in Miami by terrorizing the former publisher, David Lawrence:
The revelation that The Miami Herald and its Spanish-language counterpart, El Nuevo Herald, were in bed with Cuban leader Fidel Castro must have confounded the editors of the Cuban Communist party organ, Granma, since the Havana daily has repeatedly portrayed them as right-wing tools of the eternal CIA campaign against the thirty-three-year-old revolution.

Anywhere else, Mas Canosa's remarks might have been ignored. In the darker recesses of Miami's exile community, however, his words were clearly a call to arms. Within days Herald publisher David Lawrence, Jr., and two top editors received death threats. Anonymous callers phoned in bomb threats and Herald vending machines were jammed with gum and smeared with feces. Mas Canosa's Cuban American National Foundation quickly denied responsibility and condemned the hijinks, but Mas's words were highly inflammatory in a city where public red-baiting has served as a prelude to bombings and, in past years, murder.

That was in January, but editors at the Herald still feel besieged. Foundations ads saying "I don't believe The Herald" in Spanish are appearing on Dade County buses. Lawrence has heard that foundation people are sounding out advertisers over whether they would support a boycott -- a troubling prospect in a recession.

Coverage of the foundation and Cuba is now carefully scrutinized, Herald reports say. "There has been a watershed in how we operate with Cuban questions," says one staffer, who requested anonymity. "Before the campaign, Cuba issues were dealt with in a routine way."
(snip/...)
http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:UQiB716-0NkJ:archi...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1/31/92 Jorge Mas Canosa and executives at the Miami Herald trade charges in the paper. In a published letter, Mas Canosa writes that the newspaper has shown "a marked insensitivity to the Cuban American community" and calls on Cuban American staff to resign in protest. In reply Herald publisher David Lawrence writes in a column that "when you make wild and angry accusations, like some of this 'pro-Castro' garbage, you stir up the less well-intentioned and the more misguided." Over the next several weeks, the Herald offices and Lawrence personally receive numerous bomb threats and newspaper vending machines are vandalized with feces and other materials. Mas Canosa subsequently goes on the radio to compare the Herald to Cuba's Communist party newspaper Granma, and to accuse Lawrence of "intellectual terrorism." (AW)
http://cuban-exile.com/doc_126-150/doc0146b.html
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moddemny Donating Member (400 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #46
50. Like I said in reply #41......

What do you want me to do, list the way the mob intimidated reporters and got invovled in local politics (and some would say national), then blame all Italians?

How about Jews? Many people would say they are heavily catered too.

If Dems and many on the left acknowledged the legitimate grievances Cuban Americans had with Castro they would not have to run to the right. A lot of Cuban Americans didn't initially see themselves initially as right wing. The right is where many on the left put them (labeled them).
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. There are so many sources to chose from. This one might be helpful.....
Published on Monday, December 2, 2002 by the Guardian/UK
The Bush Dynasty and the Cuban Criminals
New book reveals links of two presidents and the governor of Florida with exiled hardliners

by Duncan Campbell in Los Angeles

The brother of President George Bush, the Florida governor, Jeb Bush, has been instrumental in securing the release from prison of militant Cuban exiles convicted of terrorist offences, according to a new book. The Bush family has also accommodated the demands of Cuban exile hardliners in exchange for electoral and financial support, the book suggests.

Last year, after September 11, while the justice department announced a sweep of terrorist suspects, Cubans convicted of terrorist offences were being released from US jails with the consent of the Bush administration, according to the book, Cuba Confidential: Love and Vengeance in Miami and Havana, by Ann Louise Bardach, the award-winning investigative journalist who has covered Cuban and Miami politics for the New York Times and Vanity Fair.

The Bush family connections go back to 1984 when Jeb Bush began a close association with Camilo Padreda, a former intelligence officer with the Batista dictatorship overthrown by Fidel Castro.

Jeb Bush was then the chairman of the Dade county Republican party and Padreda its finance chairman. Padreda had earlier been indicted on a $500,000 (320,000) embezzlement charge along with a fellow exile, Hernandez Cartaya, but the charges were dropped, reportedly after the CIA stated that Cartaya had worked for them.

Padreda later pleaded guilty to defrauding the housing and urban development department of millions of dollars during the 1980s.
(snip/...)
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/1202-05.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Watergate Cuban Plumbers!
~snip~

By the end of July, Hunt proposed a covert psychological assessment/evaluation on Ellsberg which would "destroy his public image and credibility," according to a memorandum which surfaced in the Senate investigation of Watergate. This required special assistance from employees, or former employees, of the CIA. Hunt therefore contacted a number of Cuban exiles who had been involved with him in CIA operations against Castro's Cuba, including Manuel Artimes, a former captain in Castro's army whom the CIA had helped defect from Cuba and had used to train Its exile army in Guatemala. Bernard "Macho" Barker, a former CIA infiltrator into the Cuban intelligence apparatus who had been subsequently "exfiltrated" into the United States by the CIA, was also contacted. Hunt explained to Captain Artimes that he had been authorized by the White House to recruit Cuban exiles into "hit teams" which would be used ostensibly to assassinate narcotics dealers. He asked his former comrade in clandestine work to recommend Cubans for these teams. Since Barker had arranged the escape of Artimes from Cuba on the CIA's behalf, he was apparently highly recommended. Hunt already knew Barker from the Bay of Pigs operation, in 1961, and after explaining to him that he was now working for a "higher level structure than either the FBI or CIA,- Hunt asked him to assemble a team of Cuban exiles who were burglars and lock-picks.*
(snip/...)
http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/history/aof/aof25.h...
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 06:56 AM
Response to Reply #46
203. I Need To Get In This Conversation Somewhere...
You said the Cuban refugees are "a national joke"...


If you said any other group of Americans were a "national joke" you would be run from DU...


I thought we weren't supposed to punish all members of a group for the action of a few....



I watched Scarface last night for the umpteenth time... I guess all Cubans are like Tony Montana...


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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #203
213. I have consistantly pointed to the RIGHT-WING, BATISTA supporting
Edited on Wed Oct-12-05 01:42 PM by Judi Lynn
element which, with Jorge Mas Canosa controlled Miami politics, and the Miami Cuban immigrant community for decades, which changed the entire course of the Miami Herald through smearing feces all over the newspaper vending machines, and assaulting the newspaper's publisher, David Lawrence with an onslaught of death threats to him and his staff to the point BOTH he and his wife started having people check their cars before even turning the damned things on every day.

I'm talking about the same group of people who illegally created a law in Miami keeping Cuban artists, musicians, etc., etc. from even showing up in Miami.

I'm talking about the crowds mentioned in a link I provided above which gathered outside auditoriums when the Cuban musicians COULD perform, throwing eggs, rocks, bottles, D-cell batteries, and plastic bags full of human excrement at the people trying to attend the concerts.

I'm talking about the people who made death threats, bomb threats to the theaters where Cuban performers were scheduled to perform, blew up art galleries showing Cuban art, travel agencies selling trips to Cuba, etc., etc., bombed community figures who supported dialogue with Cuba, or merely criticized Cuban "exile" violence.

I'm talking about the instance mentioned in a post by a DU'er above in which a 90 year old, world famous Cuban was assaulted when HE showed up in Miami.



I'm talking about the hordes who crowded around Lzaro Gonzalez' house in Little Havana, waving their Cuban flags, and flying their American flags upside down.

I'm talking about the ones who said they were going to shut down Miami when they learned the American courts had found it was appropriate to send Elin back to live with his father, brother, cousins, aunts, uncles, 4 grandparents, neighborhood and school friends, and burned tires out in the streets of Miami, and shut down the major streets because they wanted to throw a city-wide tantrum.

I'm talking about the long, long history of FILTHY politics in Miami which arrived with the first wave of Batista-supporting "exiles" came from Miami, many of them, like Congresswoman Ileana Ros-Lehtenen having admitted they and their families came here thinking they would only stay a few months then they'd get the U.S. to kick the Cuban government out, and they'd go right back.

I'm talking about the unbelievably corrupt Miami city government whose reputation for filthy election fraud proceeded the 2000 election all across the country by YEARS.

I'm talking about the extreme violence, the unbelievable bombings, shootings which arrived in Miami, as well as the appalling drug trafficking, which lead the FBI to name Miami the "Terror Capitol of the United States."

The United States Census Bureau has named Miami in multiple occassions, the country's "Poorest City in a Population Over 500,000," which means, if you can't grasp it, the poorest large city in the country time after time after time, as politicians and public figures like Dr. Miriam Alonso, Demetrio Perez, Jr., etc. stuff their pockets, furnish their houses, rip off their Cuban governemt-supported rent tenants, rip off the U.S. in the largest Medicare fraud in U.S. history, like Jeb Bush's friend, Miguel Recarey, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.

And what do these people have to say? What about Jorge Mas Canosa, the late little Miami dictator who had been planning to become Cuba's next President?
7/31/94 The Miami Herald reprints an interview with Jorge Mas Canosa from the Spanish newspaper El Pais. Mas Canosa was asked by El Pais whether he believed Americans would take over Cuba if Fidel Castro fell. The Herald quoted Mas Canosa as saying, in part, "They haven't even been able to take over Miami! If we have kicked them out of here, how could they possibly take over our own country?" (MH, 7/28/94; WP, 7/28/94)
http://cuban-exile.com/doc_126-150/doc0146b.html


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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #203
214. Part II answer to your comments.....
The Bush dynasty and the Cuban criminals

December 02, 2002

By: Duncan Campbell
Guardian, The

The brother of President George Bush, the Florida governor, Jeb Bush, has been instrumental in securing the release from prison of militant Cuban exiles convicted of terrorist offences, according to a new book. The Bush family has also accommodated the demands of Cuban exile hardliners in exchange for electoral and financial support, the book suggests. Last year, after September 11, while the justice department announced a sweep of terrorist suspects, Cubans convicted of terrorist offences were being released from US jails with the consent of the Bush administration, according to the book, Cuba Confidential: Love and Vengeance in Miami and Havana, by Ann Louise Bardach, the award-winning investigative journalist who has covered Cuban and Miami politics for the New York Times and Vanity Fair.
The Bush family connections go back to 1984 when Jeb Bush began a close association with Camilo Padreda, a former intelligence officer with the Batista dictatorship overthrown by Fidel Castro.

Jeb Bush was then the chairman of the Dade county Republican party and Padreda its finance chairman. Padreda had earlier been indicted on a $500,000 (320,000) embezzlement charge along with a fellow exile, Hernandez Cartaya, but the charges were dropped, reportedly after the CIA stated that Cartaya had worked for them.

Padreda later pleaded guilty to defrauding the housing and urban development department of millions of dollars during the 1980s.

The president's younger brother was also on the payroll in the 80s of the prominent Cuban exile Miguel Recarey, who had earlier assisted the CIA in attempts to assassinate President Castro.

Recarey, who ran International Medical Centres (IMC), employed Jeb Bush as a real estate consultant and paid him a $75,000 fee for finding the company a new location, although the move never took place, which raised questions at the time. Jeb Bush did, however, lobby the Reagan/Bush administration vigorously and successfully on behalf of Recarey and IMC. "I want to be very wealthy," Jeb Bush told the Miami News when questioned during that period.
(snip/...)
http://www.independent-media.tv/item.cfm?fmedia_id=4232...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Stalin Would Be Proud
And only Kafka could have dreamed up a character like Rudy Garcia
By Tristram Korten

Published: Thursday, May 1, 2003

The dismissal of six workers from a local office of the Department of Children and Families is one of the most surreal governmental dramas to play itself out in some time. Certainly you recall the incident. On March 4 an aide to state Sen. Rudy Garcia was accompanying the senator's 94-year-old grandmother to the Hialeah DCF office to inquire about her food-stamp eligibility. The aide, Francis Aleman, claims she and Garcia's abuela were treated rudely. She complained to DCF brass in Tallahassee and voil, everyone up the chain of command got the axe. Garcia happens to sit on two committees that fund and supervise DCF, and the senate is about to vote to confirm DCF Secretary Jerry Regier's permanent appointment.
Two of the fired employees had not even worked at the Hialeah office for one and a half months. They never saw, heard, or talked to the grandmother. The day they were canned they must have felt like characters in a Kafka novel, complete with self-important politicians (and their aides), obsequious bureaucrats, and a labyrinthine system so mindless that once set in motion, it couldn't be stopped.

This is as absurd as it gets. First, what the hell is the grandmother of a state senator doing on food stamps? Much less a senator who in 2001 listed his net worth as $100,212, and his income as $63,829. "She's an American citizen and she wants her independence," Garcia explained to me. "I can't tell her what to do. This is a nominal amount, around $30 a month."

Then the senator, who earns $29,328 as a legislator and derives the rest of his income from a family flooring and tile business in Hialeah, added, "We're not a rich family."
(snip/...)
http://www.miaminewtimes.com/issues/2003-05-01/news/kor...
No good can come of this | page 1, 2

Myth No. 4: The vitriol of Miami's Cuban-American leaders stems from their passionate feelings about Elin. In fact, there are so many political agendas at work that even veteran Miami politics-watchers need a scorecard to keep track. Gonzlez family lawyer Jose Garcia Pedrosa ran a bitter election campaign against then-state's attorney Janet Reno in the mid-'80s. He outspent Reno by a considerable margin and still lost. Could there be just a hint of vendetta in this new fight? Florida Attorney General Bob Butterworth, who wrote to Reno urging the case be turned over the family court and was a key voice urging Gore to adopt the same view, is married to a Cuban-American business executive who herself arrived in Miami separated from her parents in Operation Pedro Pan. And on and on.

Myth No. 5: Miami's Cuban leaders represent the democratic alternative to Fidel Castro. If anything is apparent by now, it's that Miami's mainstream Cuban leadership has little use for the machinery of democracy if it gets in the way of its war with Castro. If federal courts rule that Elin must go home, Miami's local government has emphatically said it will refuse to cooperate. When the Miami Herald a few years ago ran articles charging Cuban-American leaders with corruption, the paper received bomb threats.

Historically, the only free speech Miami's Cuban leaders care about is the speech they can buy. Between 1979 and 1997, the Cuban American National Foundation and its leaders funneled more than $3 million into congressional and presidential campaigns, creating, as the Center for Public Integrity has said, "an influence machine that, dollar for dollar, is arguably the most effective lobbying force in Washington."

Let's face facts: Guided from the start by such profound distortions and myths, Elin's saga has degenerated to the point where there can be no good outcome.

There's no good outcome for Miami's Cuban-Americans, either. Those community leaders who appointed themselves handlers for Lazaro Gonzlez may have hoped to increase their influence and attain a symbolic victory over Castro. Instead, they have convinced the rest of the United States that they are narrow-minded fanatics, and have so diminished their political influence that even the Republicans have turned against them. The bill to give Elin Gonzlez permanent residency cannot get out of committee in a GOP Congress, surely the greatest failure of all time for the massively well-heeled Cuba lobby. The Elin story has done more to erode public support for the Helms-Burton Cuba embargo than all the visits to Havana by liberal churches and lawyers in the past 20 years.
(snip/...)
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2000/04/08/myths/inde...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


If you need more material, believe me, I've got TONS. I'd be more than happy to provide it.
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Billy Burnett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #41
48. Misdirection
Edited on Mon Oct-10-05 05:06 PM by Billy Burnett
Actually the post and link by Ms. Lynn points out that the violent factions of Cuban American exiles are the ones who "sh*t on Cubans at the same time" as their claiming solidarity with the Cuban exile diaspora. The CANF (which claims to represent the interests of Cuban-Americans) is a good example of such.



As you have pointed out of other immigrant groups, Cuban-Americans are not a monolithic voting block, not a monolithic ethnicity, not monolithic in their approach to US/Cuba relations. Those who bomb and maim in the name of the entire community are the ones who "sh*t on Cubans" both in the US and in Cuba. Not Ms. Lynn.




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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 07:37 AM
Response to Reply #35
126. Unfortunately...
You will find a lot of that on DU. Remember - it's OK to be a murderous, power-mad control freak... as long as you either pretend to be a socialist (when in fact you're just a totalitarian) or say nasty things about Bush.

I really wonder what everyone will do once the world runs out of repressive Communist regimes. Perhaps they'll resort to supporting true fascists at that point, but it's difficult to tell.

The idea of supporting human rights for all people just seems so late 20th century these days.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 06:51 AM
Response to Reply #29
202. How About The Other Refugees From Other Parts Of The World?
Should they go home too?
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #25
31. We've already been blessed by previous visitors to D.U. bearing links
Edited on Mon Oct-10-05 04:04 PM by Judi Lynn
to H.R.W., thanks.
Who is behind Human Rights Watch?
Under President Clinton, Human Rights Watch was the most influential pro-intervention lobby: its 'anti-atrocity crusade' helped drive the wars in ex-Yugoslavia. Under Bush it lost influence to the neoconservatives, who have their own crusades, and it is unlikely to regain that influence during his second term. But the 'two interventionisms' are not so different anyway: Human Rights Watch is founded on belief in the superiority of American values. It has close links to the US foreign policy elite, and to other interventionist and expansionist lobbies.
(snip)

Ethical values are not, in themselves, culturally specific. However, this ethical tradition has become associated with the United States. It is dominant in the political culture, it has become associated with the flag and other national symbols, and it is capable of generating intense national emotion. It emphasises the universal rights set out in the American Declaration of Independence and its Constitution. In a sense the US was 'pre-programmed' as an interventionist power. Universal human rights, by their nature, tend to justify military intervention to enforce those rights. Expansionists, rather than isolationists, are closest to the spirit of the American Constitution, with its inherently interventionist values. In fact, most US-Americans believe in the universality and superiority of their ethical tradition. Interventionist human-rights organisations are, like the neoconservative warmongers, a logical result. Human Rights Watch is not formally an 'association for the promotion of the American Way of Life' - but it tends to behave like one.

Human Rights Watch operates a number of discriminatory exclusions, to maintain its American character, and that in turn reduces internal criticism of its limited perspective. Although it publishes material in foreign languages to promote its views, the organisation itself is English-only. More seriously, HRW discriminates on grounds of nationality. Non-Americans are systematically excluded at board level - unless they have emigrated to the United States. HRW also recruits its employees in the United States, in English. The backgrounds of the Committee members (below) indicate that HRW recruits it decision-makers from the upper class, and upper-middle class. Look at their professions: there are none from middle-income occupations, let alone any poor illegal immigrants, or Somali peasants.
(snip/...)
http://web.inter.nl.net/users/Paul.Treanor/HRW.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


An example of HWR's director, Jose Vivanco's incorruptible stance:
Do Foreign Governments Have a "Human Right" to Buy Venezuela Elections?

Sunday, Jul 10, 2005 Print format
Send by email


By: Al Giordano - NarcoSphere

As court proceedings begin this month against four Venezuelans from an election campaign group that accepted donations from a foreign government something that is indisputably a federal crime under both U.S. and Venezuelan law its no surprise that members of the Bush administration in Washington cry that the sky is falling.
After all, its their money (well, on second thought, it is U.S. taxpayers money) that is at the root of the alleged criminal enterprise. And the upcoming trial of accused Venezuelan electoral delinquents, held in the public light of day, will shine yet more sunlight upon Washingtons secret recipes for meddling in the elections of other nations.

On Friday, U.S. State Department spokesman Tom Casey and Jose Vivanco of Human Rights Watch thirteen blocks from the White House and on the same day - chirped in harmony to spin this story as a case of persecution against legitimate electoral activities.

But as last years presidential campaign in the United States revealed, Yankee political parties and candidates are prohibited from accepting foreign contributions from any source, especially from other governments. As John Kerry found out the hard way, the corrupting practices that Bush and Vivanco condone in Venezuela are strictly verboten in the United States
(snip/...)
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1498
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moddemny Donating Member (400 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. Just because there is a link to HRW.........
Edited on Mon Oct-10-05 04:02 PM by moddemny
..... doesn't mean they are the only group to examine what's going on in Cuba. It's almost irrevelant to debate the role of HRW (I trust them more than I trust Che supporters) because you will get the same info elsewhere. One can step back and take a look at the bigger picture here which is anyone or any group that posts/publishes info (on the Net or eleswhere) about the repression going on in Cuba is going to get labeled as right wing. The 1.3 million Cubans in the U.S. are all labeled as rich Batista supporters when that is the furthest thing from the truth. The Cuban American community itself (they have a lot of channels back to Cuba) is one of the best sources about what is going on in Cuba.

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Ben Ceremos Donating Member (387 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #25
39. I am one of the Cubans who lived under Fidel.
I only left because my wife is foreign and she could not find work in Cuba. Che is a true hero and i am one of the few and proud Cuban patriots who can say that from experience. Without Che, most people would have to settle for Christ...what a crock!
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Cults4Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #39
80. Wow!!! I can't believe they didn't respond to your post!
I for one would love to hear a bit more about how you feel about Cuba and socialism.
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moddemny Donating Member (400 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #80
181. "Wow!!! I can't believe they didn't respond to your post!"
Edited on Tue Oct-11-05 10:13 PM by moddemny
Oh my, don't panic, some people don't live on DU all day. It takes us some time to wade through all these articles the cut and paste Che lovers throw up.


I agree though I would like to hear what he has to say to about Cuba and Socialism. I am most curious to hear if he would like Che's example of revolution exported and imposed on other people.
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Cults4Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #181
212. And you needn't be so sensitive.
I don't think you are coming off as very sincere in your desire to hear what he has to say about Socialism as you backed that statement with a not so subtle snark.

As a response to your last line (as it does require one), let me ask you a question. Would you want Americas example of revolution exported and imposed on other people?
Oh thats right you have almost no say in the matter other than a vote that no longer counts. Not that that is significant or anything because hell we do export and impose our example of "revolution" quite often if the history of modern warfare and guerilla insurgencies is any indictaion. I see this as sort of pot and kettle, don't you?

Are you anti-socialist btw? Just asking...
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moddemny Donating Member (400 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #212
217. "And you needn't be so sensitive."
Edited on Wed Oct-12-05 05:00 PM by moddemny
The sensitivity didn't start on my end...... I made a passing comment about Che and everyone jumped down my throat..........


Anyway...... I am going to briefly try to answer your questions......


Am I anti-socialist, no......... If you are talking about what people call "Democratic Socialism" or evolutionary Socialism........ In order to get a few things straight..... Socialism is a poorly defined and misused word. Many Republicans now adays do confuse Communism with Socialism and label things like Social Security, National Healthcare, Labor Unions, the water utility, the garbage collector as Communists or hardcore Socialism, I don't. I believe in many Social Safety nets if they can be phased in a sensible evolutionary way with their results being examined along the way . I am not arguing here that Capitalism is perfect but you cannot take individual initiative, entrepreneurship, creativity out of the picture, nor I am agaisnt rich people if they made their money in an honest way. I am being brief and this is overly simplistic...... I am just outlining that no I am not anti-socialist and I know what people are worried about when they see someone knocking Communists.............. However back to Che...... Che does not represent the nice, benign, evolutionary socialism, democratic socialism, whatever you want to call it that the more reasonable socialists espouse....... He represents the much more brutal, hardline, anti-democratic, pro - Soviet style of Communism not Socialism that has caused a great deal of suffering around the world. Revolutionary Communists are not interested in a debate, they are going for the quick brutal overthrow which I simply won't stand for, too much damage has been done and if they could not be trusted in the former Communist countries of the 20th century I am not going trust them now........ neither are the people who lived under those regimes......... There are 1 billion plus people around the world who know lived the results of Communism and are not willing to go back to a similiar system.



Do I want America's system exported and imposed by force? No and definitely not Bush-style, however if there is an oppressed people somewhere who asks for our help, example Bosnians in Bosnia, the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan, we should evaluate that on a case by case basis.


When it comes to American support for guerillas and anti-communist revolutionaries, the CIA has gone overboard in many areas but since everybody wants to put things into context so desperately why don't they realize the Kremlin and KGB were much worse and were fighting their own proxy wars all over the world (post #177 below). If Communist revolutionaries had their vision fulfilled, hardcore, anti-democratic Communism would have swallowed the rest of Europe, Latin America, Africa and Asia. America and it's allies really did have a lot on their hands.


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Cults4Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #217
223. Right on. I'll gladly accept what you said.
Agree with almost every bit as well.

Well stated and I thank you for the courtesy.

Thanks for being good natured in your reply as well, it is appreciated.
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 05:50 AM
Response to Reply #39
106. yeah, tell us more
I would like to hear from someone who just does not cut and paste articles or "visited" Cuba but from someone who actually lived in Cuba.

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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 05:57 AM
Response to Reply #106
109. You would have seen a post from a guy who did earlier in the thread.
He said he lived there, not visited.

I'm surprised you don't remember it.

There are also two posters in this thread who have been to Cuba multiple times for extended periods of times, who've been all over the island, who have stayed in homes there, who have friends there, etc., etc., etc.

Maybe they'll see this thread later today and have speaks with you.
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moddemny Donating Member (400 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #39
180. That's not unusual to find........
There are still a few Slovenians and Croatians (and Czechs and Poles) who want the old Yugoslavia back even though most of their countrymen fought to break away (Even the Serbs themselves eventually dumped Milosevic) Yugoslavia was probably in many ways in better off than Cuba when it was Communist and people still dumped the system. I don't know you well enough so I don't want to insult you with the typical profile of who succeeds under Communism.


"Without Che, most people would have to settle for Christ...what a crock!"

I don't want to bring God into this but you are giving new life to the term "Godless Communist". Don't give up on Christianity yet, even Christians who don't like Che or Castro are still praying for their souls.


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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #180
183. Give us a break.
Godless Communists?

Fer Christs sake.. the Cuban government has funded the restorations of many churches, synagogues, and mosques in Cuba.

Got any more red herrings?


Gotta go there and see for yourself someday at how godless those commies really are.

Oh yeah.. I forgot.. US freedom.. the US government has criminalized unfettered travel to Cuba for Americans and residents.



Havana


St. Bosco in Havana


Santiago de Cuba
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moddemny Donating Member (400 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #183
186. No Red Herring............
Edited on Tue Oct-11-05 10:31 PM by moddemny
Can't blame me for taking a swipe at someone who puts Che above Christ.

"Without Che, most people would have to settle for Christ...what a crock!"

Priorities aren't completly (putting Che above anything isn't normally sane but given how this conversation is going) straight but looks like they did learn some lesson from the fall of the "Godless" Soviets. Communist Party droped the ban on membership by Christians in 1991.
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #186
188. Why bother swiping at all?
Edited on Tue Oct-11-05 10:41 PM by Mika
It looks like you have a few things to learn about Cuba NOW. Why take swipes at all at those who represent a different opinion than you?

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moddemny Donating Member (400 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #188
189. I had an opinion.......
Edited on Tue Oct-11-05 10:58 PM by moddemny
All I said very early in thread was F*** Che and I was going to leave it at that.....Just my opinion..... and then everyone took their swipes at me. You are almost implying the pro-che people have more of a right to their opinion than me.



But your right about one swipe, when it comes to religion I shouldn't bring God into this. Gotta hand it to Castro though, he probably saw how the Pope helped the Solidarity movement, saw the fall of the Soviet Union and then realized he shouldn't ban Christians from becoming Communists. He is not as dumb as I thought he was.
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Shakespeare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #25
40. HAHAHAHAHA!! *cough* wet foot/dry foot *cough* gusanos....
How lovely of you to speak for the people of Cuba. Freakin' hilarious, in fact.
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moddemny Donating Member (400 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. "How lovely of you to speak for the people of Cuba."
It is kind of me........ I wouldn't want to see what would happen to a Che/Castro supporter if he ran into some of the Cubans I met in my life who fled from Castro.
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Shakespeare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. Oh, like the ones in Miami who like to blow stuff up?
Please. Save it for somebody who's uninformed. Castro's regime is not all bad, nor is it all good. It is most decidedly not, however, as "evil" as the exiles would have others believe. The disinformation spread about life in Cuba is breathtaking.

The exiles, on the other hand, have exploited an immigration policy that is biased in their favor to develop a thug network, and cry "victim" any time their actions come under examination.

Sit in Miami and bitch about Cuba, but do nothing to take back your country? Cowards. Cowards and liars.
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moddemny Donating Member (400 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #45
51. "Castro's regime is not all bad, nor is it all good."
AAAAhhhhhh F*ck it, maybe you right...... Many republicans may say the same thing about Bush "not all bad, nor is it all good"...... let's bend the Constitution and elect him for 45 years..... Same guy in power for 45 years, who cares?
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Shakespeare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. moddemny, you're rambling. n/t
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moddemny Donating Member (400 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #53
57. "moddemny, you're rambling."
Must be a symptom of listening to all the revolutionary rhetoric.
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Shakespeare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. Beats listening to the gusano bullshit. n/t
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #57
74. This quotes thing in the subject line is really annoying, did you know?
Edited on Mon Oct-10-05 08:04 PM by Commie Pinko Dirtbag
As if your arguments consisted solely of pointing at what the other person said and sneer... oh wait - they do!
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moddemny Donating Member (400 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #74
122. "This quotes thing in the subject line is really annoying, did you know?"
It helps to able to follow the thread, I am not the only one who does it. Many new people who read the threads do not follow it by numbered replies so they get confused who is talking to who.
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 05:52 AM
Response to Reply #53
107. no he is not, its a good point. Do you want a 45- year, one person rule??
Edited on Tue Oct-11-05 05:53 AM by Bacchus39
last I heard, that was called a dictatorship.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #43
47. Lots of stories of their special ability, blowing people to pieces from
Edited on Mon Oct-10-05 05:02 PM by Judi Lynn
a safe distance, using remote controlled bombs. They have blown each OTHER up in Miami, from what is available in police records.

Only STUPID people live for violence. I mean STUPID.
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moddemny Donating Member (400 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #47
54. "Only STUPID people live for violence."
Does that include CHE as well?

Quote (from Che):

"Hatred as an element of struggle; unbending hatred for the enemy, which pushes a human being beyond his natural limitations, making him into an effective, violent, selective, and cold-blooded killing machine. This is what our soldiers must become"


Calling for "two, three, many Vietnams," doesn't make him a new Gandhi either.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #54
62. I believe that's probably a bogus quote.I see it in right-wing sources
like "World Net Daily," etc. Do you happen to have a legitimate link?
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #62
65. I believe that is a Rumsfeld quote!
The "one, two, three, many Vietnams" is a Che quote and is one we all embraced during the Vietnam War. It is still valid today for if it weren't for the quagmire in Iraq, Bush would then have enough troops to invade Venezuela, Bolivia, Iran, Syria, and Gawd knows what else.
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moddemny Donating Member (400 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 07:25 AM
Response to Reply #65
123. If your an idi*t..........
Edited on Tue Oct-11-05 07:29 AM by moddemny
who thinks or shouted "two, three, many Vietnams" (as you did in reply #63 below as well) so that U.S. forces have to bleed so they cannot be deployed elsewhere or to teach an American president a lesson, I am not interested in having any form of discussion with you. Your asking for the deaths of the sons and daughters of those parents who marched against the war. There are mothers on this board who have children in Iraq. Tell Cindy Sheehan how happy you are her son was killed so Iraq could be a quagmire.

I have a big problem with the way Bush went about Iraq but I always wished for the success of a new Iraqi democracy and that it does not turn into a quagmire. A quagmire is what prevents the troops from coming home. A quagmire could lead to a draft. Americans wouldn't stand for an invasion of Venezuela, Bolivia, Iran, Syria and with Bush in charge I don't even most of America's military leaders would stand for it either. This is insanity.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 07:43 AM
Response to Reply #123
129. I guess you prefer that the US troops be murdering Venezuelans
or Bolivians or Cubans or any other civilian population just to satisfy Bush's imperialistic goals. I don't, and I won't. Now, if you want to put yourself on the same moral plane as the Germans that supported their troops during World War II, you just go ahead!

I want the troops home, NOW! I don't support their mission, nor do I support their crimes in Iraq. US troops have been used to squash freedom at home and abroad!
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moddemny Donating Member (400 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #129
220. Normally I would not continue this conversation.......
After the comments you made in reply #63 and #65 and I should stick my my policy especially after your off the wall response in #129. No I don't support Bush and no I dont support the murdering Venezuelans or Bolivians or Cubans. If you think the way to stop Bush is to have more soldiers killed in Iraq that's your problem.


I shouldn't even reply to such insane comments but since you lob an absurd accusation such as:

"Now, if you want to put yourself on the same moral plane as the Germans that supported their troops during World War II, you just go ahead!"


I will point out what I found while browsing another supposedly "progressive" site set up by a former poster on this board. Before I put it up however, I would like to mention I was just surfing that other site and I almost never take one debate from from one thread into another thread let alone something from another board. I make an exception in this one case because of the accusations hurled and since it appears you make no effort to hide who you are and in fact seem very proud of your view. This is a big departure for me and something I normally do not do. It is not something I sought out simply a thread I ran across and was quite shocked at first to read it. It does pertain to this overall Communism debate.


Here is the thread from Progressive Independent:

http://www.progressiveindependent.com/dc/dcboard.php?az...

Poll question: Was the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan justified?

"I vote for the third poll option.

I think the USSR had imperial motivations behind its military intervention on behalf of her client state. However, I think the progressive reforms of the PDPA regime-- especially in the unprecedented and rapid advancement of women's rights, the abolition of peonage, national healthcare and education-- justified support for a Red Army victory over the CIA-supported Islamofascist mujahadeen.

Not to mention that it was later revealed by Jimmy Carter's national security adviser that the US intentionally provoked the Soviet invasion by supplying the infant mujahadeen forces prior to the direct military intervention of the USSR in 1979."

Click on link for the rest of the poll


IndianaGreen - Reply #13: "Whose side you on, the Marxists or the Islamic Jihadists?"

"The "invasion" of Afghanistan is an American myth! The Marxist Afghan government gave women full equality, including free university. They were opposed by the Jihadists who felt that if Gawd wanted you to be poor, you must remain poor.

The Soviets had the Jihadists on the ropes until the US decided to provide surface to air missiles.

Are women better off now than they were under the Marxists? HELL NO!"


Now I am pretty sure that is the same IdianaGreen....... The board was set up by a poster who use to post here (don't know) if he still does, its the same avatar, same name and very very similiar writing style.


If it is the same person, you accuse me of being on the same mental plane as Germans during WWII when I don't support Bush while you support a Soviet invasion that killed somewhere between 1 to 2 million Afghan civilians in the most overt and brutal way? If it wasn't so sad someone could have a good laugh at the hypocrisy. Blaming the U.S. for it's war crimes while fully supporting the Soviets in theirs.













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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #220
227. "Are women better off now than they were under the Marxists? HELL NO!"
The same can be said about women in Iraq under the Baathists. They were better off under a secular regime than they are now, or will be under whatever Islamist government that wins the civil war.

Now, if you want to justify US intervention in Afghanistan, an intervention that eventually led to the birth of the Taliban, and made Osama bin Laden the man he is today, please continue to defend your precious Pax Americana.

I would rather see women achieve equality under Marxism than to see them subjugated by Jihadists, be they Muslim or Christian.
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moddemny Donating Member (400 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #62
70. Doesn't matter what link I provide......
You'll just brush it off and no it's not world net daily. I never read world net daily. Where do you get your information, worker's world?
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. No, I don't use "worker's world."I use more mainstream sources, generally.
I still would like to see a source for that quote. Thanks.

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moddemny Donating Member (400 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #71
73. Link. - Nothing resembling World Net Daily
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #73
77. Oh, God. We've seen that review, thanks! A gusano of possibly the
Edited on Mon Oct-10-05 09:18 PM by Judi Lynn
highest level of incoherence we've seen here posted it as soon as it was published.

That, combined with their embracing a virulent anti-Chavez "journalist" has left many people wondering just what kind of slime has taken over Slate, anyway.

Here's what someone has to say about your review author:
Coming from Berman, it is lies that serve to justify not only the failure of the Latin American revolutionary movements that he has always derided for profit, but of the military regimes that replaced them ... this is Berman on Latin American politics, at his heart, a Miami reactionary
http://www.pressaction.com/news/weblog/full_article/cum... /

On edit, adding more on the author of your movie critique from the same source:
Paul Berman doesnt give a shit about human rights. He is an insult even to those who share his (overt, exoteric) peculiar ideology. Like Kissinger or Sharon, he blames victims for their problems. Even Slate magazine, which while centrist is usually fair, should think twice about him in the future. He is a hustler, nothing more.
(snip/)
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moddemny Donating Member (400 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #77
159. Like I said twice before up the thread......
..... it doesn't matter where the link comes from you'll label it a right wing source. Those particular quotes are all over the Internet on many different sites. I trust Slate for their journalism in the sense I think the fact checking is probably accurate, meaning whatever the author's view if he used those quotes than there is a very high chance Che said it. The issue of what goes on in Cuba or Che's/Castro's legacy is much much bigger than any one author.



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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #73
78. I'm adding an article discussing your movie critic's politics!
~snip~

....Lapsed Democratic Socialist reviewer Paul Berman maintains that "the great untold story of the 20th century...is the story of the heroic anti-Communist left...and radical trade unionists who recognized that Communism was a catastrophic byproduct of their own movement. And in that great untold tale, surely no one played a...more dramatic role than the slightly scary Jay Lovestone."

This is monkey-chatter. Many movements fought Stalin, including the Nazis. None is approved of for that alone. Each is judged by the totality of their organizational 'politics,' internal and external, not by their opposition to Stalinism alone. Re the AFL and then the merged AFL-CIO, many unions were bastions of bureaucracy, mafia control and primordial American racism.
(snip)

There is nothing new in Berman's panegyric. He sees himself as the ideological heir of the Shankerite wing of the CIA's working class collaborators. Democratic Socialists of America evolved out of the Socialist Party, known for decades for its perennial presidential candidate, Norman Thomas, and it gives out Debs-Thomas awards. However Thomas was exposed as on the take from the CIA in a 2/22/67 Times. article, "Thomas Upholds CIA-Aided Work." This was later confirmed by Sidney Hook in the July 1982 Commentary. He had been Thomas's colleague in the American Committee for Cultural Freedom. "When it was unable to pay its rent...Thomas...telephoned Allen Dulles of the CIA and requested a contribution."
(snip)
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/45b/068.html

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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #78
79. Being curious about who Shanker is, mentioned in the article, I looked him
up! Guess what. He's connected to the Cuban American National Foundation. Small world!
Albert Shanker is president of the American Federation of Teachers, a national union considered by many to be the most progressive teachers union in the U.S. (21) On the international scene, however, the AFT's activities are more conservative. The AFT conducted a project entitled "Teachers Under Dictatorship," a study revolving around teachers in Chile, Nicaragua, South Africa, and Poland. The funding for this project came from NED through FTUI. (27) Shanker currently serves on the boards of Freedom House, APRI, CDM, FTUI, AIFLD, the AFL-CIO, and NED. (7,19,28,4,29,10) He also served or serves on the boards of the AFL-CIO's International Affairs Department affiliates, the AALC and AAFLI. (30) Shanker was a founder of the CPD. (23) He served on the advisory board of the Cuban American National Foundation, an anti-Castro lobbying group which has received funding from NED. (31,32) Shanker also served on the board of the IRC and the American Foundation for Resistance International. Resistance International is an anticommunist group that supports "freedom fighters" around the world and in this country works to overcome the "sweet reasonableness" of Gorbachev and reawaken the people to the dangers of communism. (17,33)
(snip/...)
http://rightweb.irc-online.org/groupwatch/sd-usa.php

I am SURE that some DU'ers " 'round these parts" will find this article very interesting, with its references to NED and Freedom House, etc. :woohoo:
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moddemny Donating Member (400 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #78
160. "the great untold story of the 20th century..."
is the story of the heroic anti-Communist left"



If by that he means Vaclav Havel, Lech Walesa, Alexander Solzhenitsyn or other dissidents then he is right, I already mentioned that in other threads before I read Berman's article. Men like Vaclav Havel were men of very great intellect, ethics and courage. It's ashame Americans don't know more about them or have largely forgotten. If people like Havel or Walesa were leading the anti-bush movement in 2001 when Bush stole the election, the streets would have been filled with much bigger protests than you have today.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 07:01 AM
Response to Reply #160
204. Small Point...
Alexander Solzhenitsyn was not a leftist... He was an authoritarian who became as critical of America's bourgeois freedoms as he was of his former nation...
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 04:04 AM
Response to Reply #73
100. I found more on your link's Slate author, Paul Berman........
First here's the beginning of one of his Slate articles, which, surprise, concerns Cuba!
Free at Last!
What Ral Rivero's release from prison means for Cuba.
By Paul Berman
Posted Wednesday, Dec. 1, 2004, at 3:40 PM PT


Good news! A little more than two months ago, on Sep. 24, I published in this space a loud boo directed at the movie The Motorcycle Diaries because of its celebration of Che Guevara. And I pointed to an alternative hero of Cuban freedom, Ral Rivero, an opposition journalist and a marvelous poet. In 2003, Rivero was sentenced to 20 years of prison on the charge of having conspired with the United States.

Last Friday, Rivero was transferred to a military hospital. And, on Tuesday of this week, he was suddenly released. Free at last!free from prison, anyway. He was liberated together with five other Cuban dissidents from the group of 75 who were imprisoned last year. (Seven others had already been freed.)
(snip/...)
http://slate.msn.com/id/2110504/#ContinueArticle

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Here's an article which discusses Berman's pet dissident,Ral Rivero, and his status as "dissident:"
The US has been running a diplomatic campaign against Cuba, to back its long standing project of "regime change" for the island. Last year it managed to get a motion passed condemning Cuba, by a majority of one, at the UN Human Rights Commission. PM John Howard's government, as usual, backed US President George Bush's regime. The US now has a Washington-based "transition coordinator" for Cuba, and a full program of World Bank-backed privatisations and corporate entry all, of course, in the name of "freedom and democracy" for the Cuban people.

The talking point at the UN has been the jailing of 75 Cuban "dissidents" in 2003. Amnesty International and even the European Union (which passively opposes most US actions against Cuba) have given prominence to these people, as "prisoners of conscience".
(snip)

Of Raul Rivero, for example, McGeough says "Rivero's crime was twofold possession of a typewriter, and a will to dream". He then quotes charge sheets which refer to Rivero's supposed anti-social views. What the article fails to point out is that Rivero was charged with taking money from the US government and from a Miami-based terrorist group, with the aim of overthrowing the Cuban government and the Cuban Revolution.

The 2003 "dissidents" were charged with two specific crimes under Cuban law: (a) " in the interest of a foreign state with the purpose of harming the independence of the Cuban state"; and (b) "seek out information to be used in the application of the Helms-Burton Act, the blockade and the economic war against our people". The US has a law which requires the destruction of the Cuban system (the Helms-Burton Act) in response, Cuba has laws which ban collaboration with this US project.

In their 2003 book The Dissidents, Rosa Elizalde and Luis Baez discuss the Cuban operations which led to the March 2003 arrests, and the evidence used in court. They show detailed evidence of support for Rivero (in particular) from the US Office of Interests in Havana (there is no US Consulate), and of donations to Rivero from the Miami-based Cuban American National Foundation (CANF).

The CANF (supported by successive US governments), has a long history of backing terrorist actions against Cuba, as well as demanding the overthrow of the Cuban Government. CANF founder, the late Jorge Mas Canosa, was a close associate and backer of Latin America's most famous terrorist, Luis Posada.
(snip)

I have visited the island twice. There is no general climate of fear. People do speak freely, criticising their government, but criticising the US government far more. Cubans also participate at much higher levels than Australians in political system.
(snip)

Unlike Australia, Cuba has never invaded another country, participated in the carpet bombing of civilians, or engaged in a worldwide torture network. We Australians know where to look for human rights abuses, and it begins at home. There are great dangers in joining in with these new rounds of claimed "human right abuses", in the empire's latest target.
(snip/)
http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/2005/619/619p16.htm

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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #100
150. Way to lay the smackdown, JL!
Time to break out the ol' pic, because moddemny just got...



(Man, I love that pic, it's quite useful when uninformed people get schooled.)

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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #150
155. Thanks so much, love that photo! Have you noticed these people
never acknowledge it, but flitter away to something totally different as if nothing has ever happened? It used to drive me nuts when I started learning about Cuba during the Elin days, at the CNN US/Cuba Relations message board. Same stuff, different posters, possibly. You never really know!

Here's a great article from a former CIA man discussing the "dissidents," in case you've not seen it. It's really worth a moment's time scanning it, if there's not time to read more closely:
~snip~
With respect to the imprisonment of 75 civil society activists, the main victim has been history, for these people were central to current U.S. government efforts to overthrow the Cuban government and destroy the work of the revolution. Indeed regime change, as overthrowing governments has come to be known, has been the continuing U.S. goal in Cuba since the earliest days of the revolutionary government. Programs to achieve this goal have included propaganda to denigrate the revolution, diplomatic and commercial isolation, trade embargo, terrorism and military support to counter-revolutionaries, the Bay of Pigs invasion, assassination plots against Fidel Castro and other leaders, biological and chemical warfare, and, more recently, efforts to foment an internal political opposition masquerading as an independent civil society.
(snip)

Whatever the amounts of money reaching Cuba may have been, everyone in Cuba working in the various dissident projects knows of U.S. government sponsorship and funding and of the purpose: regime change. Far from being "independent" journalists, "idealistic" human rights activists, "legitimate" advocates for change, or "Marian librarians from River City," every one of the 75 arrested and convicted was knowingly a participant in U.S. government operations to overthrow the government and install a different, U.S.-favored, political, economic and social order. They knew what they were doing was illegal, they got caught, and they are paying the price. Anyone who thinks they are prisoners of conscience, persecuted for their ideas or speech, or victims of repression, simply fails to see them properly as instruments of a U.S. government that has declared revolutionary Cuba its enemy. They were not convicted for ideas but for paid actions on behalf of a foreign power that has waged a 44-year war of varying degrees of intensity against this country.

To think that the dissidents were creating an independent, free civil society is absurd, for they were funded and controlled by a hostile foreign power and to that degree, which was total, they were not free or independent in the least. The civil society they wished to create was not just your normal, garden variety civil society of Harley freaks and Boxer breeders, but a political opposition movement fomented openly by the U.S. government. What government in the world would be so self-destructive as to sit by and just watch this happen?
(snip)

Under Cuban law, being paid to execute U.S. policy toward Cuba is illegal and in itself sufficient to convict. The largest group within the 75, the 37 "independent journalists," were writing commentaries on Cuba for publication outside the country using the internet for communications. One of their organizations in Cuba was the Independent Press Association of which the President, Nestor Baguer, was a Cuban government security agent who testified in court. Members of his group, he said, wrote for the website Cubanet, based in Miami, and were paid via the Transcard debit card system in Canada except for large amounts that were brought by courier. Cubanet by the way received $35,000 from NED in 2001 and is to receive $833,000 from AID in 2003. Baguer also testified that on visits to the U.S. Interests Section, he and his colleagues received instructions on topics to cover in their writings such as the shortage of medicines, the treatment of patients in hospitals, and the treatment of inmates in prisons. Generally speaking the "independent journalists" were to place Cuba in a bad light abroad and to justify continuation of the trade embargo.
(snip)
http://www.wicuba.org/ageearticle.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


The author carefully illuminates the funding of the "dissidents," leaving no question about what has been happening. If another country attempted to engage U.S. citizens in a similar arrangement there would be people in prison here, too. It's against U.S. law.

Pathetic our right-wing can lead idiots to believe we should behave this way toward small, helpless countries when they wouldn't EVER allow anything like that to happen here. Shabby, dirty, dishonest behavior.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #155
158. As I said upthread - moving the goalposts.
It's what dishonest people do. They HAVE to do so, in order to try to force their point into being accepted.

Thankfully, we have people like you and Mika who actually refute the bullshit quite well. Kudos!

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moddemny Donating Member (400 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #158
162. Moving the goalposts.......
is asking for the a link to quotes of what Che said, which are all over the internet and then trying to discredit one author. Paul Berman may have his particular views (which are only disturbing to the Che supporters) th question is slate's fact checking correct.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #162
182. Actually, that's not moving the goalposts.
I'll explain it slowly for you: moving the goalposts is when you argue one thing, are shown that argument is wrong or invalid, and you then move on to address a different argument that was never made, in an attempt to make the one who showed you to be in error address a point that never came up before.

You have not described this scenario with regards to, say, Che quotes. Thus, you are wrong. Again.

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moddemny Donating Member (400 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #150
164. You celebrate too early.........

Monday was a holiday (coulmbus day), I had time to sit at the computer and post. Tuesday morning I had to get up and go to work because I don't live in a socialist fantasy where the state supports me. It's 6:30 now and I have until 8:30 -9:00 to post, then I have to prepare for the next day's work. I don't live on DU on all day (you may also notice I have more than one person to respond too, Che mania is running high in this thread when their icon is challenged and I am a little outnumbered). You must have not been following the thread well anyway, I fully expect a Che supporter to try 100% to debunk any anti-che article (truthfully or untruthfully). Their indentities are too wrapped around their hero. According to Che supporters all the people who risked their lives to escape Cuba on rafts are nothing but rich Batista supporters.


Raul Rivero isn't the only dissident in a Communist country who went to jail for owning a typewriter and writing what he truly feels. Typewriters and many other forms of printing equipment had to be registered in the former Soviet Union, lest someone churn something out to challenge the regime. Che and Castro adopted many of their Stalinist allies techniques.


The smackdown here is of those who are going to support a brutal thug in one thread and then go running around pretending to be "true progressives" in others.

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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #164
171. What about the hundreds of Latin Americans who die annually
trying to cross into the U.S. from Mexico from California to Texas?

What about the hundreds who die annually trying to get to the States from Haiti, and the Dominican Republic, crowded onto small boats?

Are Latin Americans trying to escape Cuba? Haitians? No, there are many Haitians who have escaped TO Cuba. They have a sizeable community living there.

If the same benefits available to Cuban immigrants were also extended to people from ANY OTHER COUNTRY, you would have one huge onslaught. We'd be knee deep in immigrants. Look how much hardship Latin Americans and Caribbean citizens face with nothing but grief ahead of them if they get caught.
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moddemny Donating Member (400 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #171
172. In reply #164 I didn't say ..........
Cubans are the only ones trying to come here, I was pointing out how the Che worshippers consider them all to be rich Batista supporters. They are not Batista supporters they are people who realized the revolution failed to deliver and they beleive they can have a better life in the States.


Considering how much closer Cuba is to Haiti, I wonder why so many Haitians risk their lives to make the much longer trip to the U.S. They realize when they reach the United States they have a much better chance at a better deal than in Cuba.


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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #172
179. There are Haitian immigrees in Cuba
Edited on Tue Oct-11-05 10:27 PM by Mika
Amazing that the attempted misdirections of the ignorant-of-Cuba-now could be so egregious. Like flailings in the water.

There is a significant Haitian & Haitian-Cuban community in Cuba.

As a matter of fact, after the violence erupted at the hands of US paid and armed mercenaries/criminals and the US kidnapping of Aristide there were a large number of Hatiians who did make it to Cuba via overloaded boats. That is, those who could make it through the US Coast Guard blockade. I posted a few threads on this very subject at the time of the coup. I guess that you missed them.



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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #164
184. I think my timing is correct.
Weighing your efforts and those of people like JL, I conclude that she is far more intellectually honest, and her sources and analysis far more credible than yours.

It's just the way it works out. You could get all snarky about being shown to be wrong in my eyes, but that would be petty of you, and wouldn't do anything to address your credibility problem with me anyway.

For that, you'd need to beat her at the task of informing. Isn't happening so far.

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moddemny Donating Member (400 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #184
190. "you'd need to beat her at the task of informing. Isn't happening so far."
Edited on Tue Oct-11-05 11:13 PM by moddemny
Then you haven't been reading the whole thread. Nothing I put will matter, links from Human Rights Watch, Slate, Amnesty International, anything I write on my own from what people have told me, etc. It will just be ignored, that's what cults are about. Read post #177 and tell me those things aren't true. Tell me how Che/Castro/Soviets didn't have the goal of spreading the revolution around the world and eventually America. Tell me how they weren't arming themselves with vast quantities of arms when the Russsians will admit it themsevles. You seem so surprised of people who don't hold the same vision.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #190
216. Surprised? Hardly. I've seen the same tired arguments many times.
It's not like you're the first person to ever attempt and, IMHO, fail to override JL's excellent analysis.

I couldn't possibly be less surprised at the arguments you've made. I've seen it all before, and I still remain unconvinced by those arguments.

You could call me a cultist, but since I don't believe Che was the Greatest Human Alive Ever, it would be kind of silly to characterize me as such. I just find the arguments by JL and Mika to be much more persuasive and logical.

That your arguments utterly fail to offer anything new to the debate, or to sway my viewpoint due to their ever-flawed analysis, does not mean I find you objectionable as a person. So don't take it personally that I disagree with your opinions.

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moddemny Donating Member (400 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #216
231. " I don't believe Che was the Greatest Human Alive Ever"
Ahhh, finally some acknowledgement Che may not be the ideal model of human behavior at least we made some progress.

Your reply is #216, I am assuming you read #177, so what are you saying is you don't beleive that former Communist countries were building huge armies and had highly militarized economies? If you don't believe me all you have to do is go the library and get a copy of some Jane's publications from the 80's or before. Their site is www.janes.com . Janes is very well respected in defense circles, so much so that if it wasn't available publicly spies would risk life and limb to get a hold of some of their books and articles. You'll find out what the balance of military power was. No matter how credible the source though, I don't think it would matter, you have dismissed links from Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, Slate, and the BBC. Many people would consider at least one of those institutions somewhat credible if not completely.

You make your friend's JL's analysis out to be infallible. Che's quotes are all over the internet and I post one article and she goes all out to debunk Paul Berman........ In reply #78 the article she posted mentioned Paul Berman is a Democratic Socialist, Look up what Democratic Socialists are...........

Reply #78

"...Democratic Socialist reviewer Paul Berman maintains that "the great untold story of the 20th century...is the story of the heroic anti-Communist left...and radical trade unionists who recognized that Communism was a catastrophic byproduct of their own movement. And in that great untold tale, surely no one played a...more dramatic role than the slightly scary Jay Lovestone."


In Paul Berman you have a writer that is at least sympathetic to some aspects of Socialism. That I would say gives him some objectivity and he is definitely not a right wing source. Why does JL go out to defend a more anti-democratic, hardline soviet style Communist like Che when there are more benign forms of Socialist thought out there? Do you prefer hardline old style Communists over much more benign Social Democrats?


"I couldn't possibly be less surprised at the arguments you've made. I've seen it all before, and I still remain unconvinced by those arguments"

I've seen all the Pro Castro, Pro Che, Pro Soviet arguments before and I remain unconvinced and tired of them too.


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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #231
232. In the end...
Edited on Thu Oct-13-05 01:29 AM by HuckleB
it's probably not worth arguing.

For some, such icons and "philosophies" have taken on the role that fundamentalist religion has for others. Orwell, another socialist sympathiser if ever there was one, recognized this brand of totalitarian mind long ago. And many beautiful minds have followed suit. It's interesting to watch IndianaGreen's personal attacks, and note them in context with the type of unjustified, unverified attacks that imprisoned and murdered so many so very recently, in terms of the full spectrum of history. Alas, some still refuse a full reading of history, and, thus, fall prey to irrational rationality.

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moddemny Donating Member (400 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #150
168. AHAHAHAHAHA- and you call someone who posts......
contradictory links evidence of a smackdown?


In reply #100

"Unlike Australia, Cuba has never invaded another country"


What a joke, the Cubans were very active in supporting Soviet proxy wars in Africa, they sent thousands of troops to Angola with the intent if they were successful their they would spread the supposed "revolution" all over Africa. Real credibility there, trying to debunk one author with bulls*it from another.



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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #168
170. Now you know that wasn't an invasion, don't you?
Fortunately for you, there's still time to figure it out, or at least get called on misinformation:
SECRET CUBAN DOCUMENTS ON HISTORY OF AFRICA INVOLVEMENT
National Security Archive Electronic Briefing Book No. 67
Edited by Peter Kornbluh

NEW BOOK based on Unprecedented Access to Cuban Records;
True Story of U.S.-Cuba Cold fear Clash in Angola presented in Conflicting Missions


Washington D.C.: The National Security Archive today posted a selection of secret Cuban government documents detailing Cuba's policy and involvement in Africa in the 1960s and 1970s. The records are a sample of dozens of internal reports, memorandum and communications obtained by Piero Gleijeses, a historian at the Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies, for his new book, Conflicting Missions: Havana, Washington, and Africa, 1959-1976 (The University of North Carolina Press).

Peter Kornbluh, director of the Archives Cuba Documentation Project, called the publication of the documents a significant step toward a fuller understanding Cubas place in the history of Africa and the Cold War, and commended the Castro governments decision to makes its long-secret archives accessible to scholars like Professor Gleijeses. Cuba has been an important actor on the stage of foreign affairs, he said. Cuban documents are a missing link in fostering an understanding of numerous international episodes of the past.

Conflicting Missions provides the first comprehensive history of the Cuba's role in Africa and settles a longstanding controversy over why and when Fidel Castro decided to intervene in Angola in 1975. The book definitively resolves two central questions regarding Cuba's policy motivations and its relationship to the Soviet Union when Castro astounded and outraged Washington by sending thousands of soldiers into the Angolan civil conflict. Based on Cuban, U.S. and South African documents and interviews, the book concludes that

  • Castro decided to send troops to Angola on November 4, 1975, in response to the South African invasion of that country, rather than vice versa as the Ford administration persistently claimed;

  • The United States knew about South Africa's covert invasion plans, and collaborated militarily with its troops, contrary to what Secretary of State Henry Kissinger testified before Congress and wrote in his memoirs.

  • Cuba made the decision to send troops without informing the Soviet Union and deployed them, contrary to what has been widely alleged, without any Soviet assistance for the first two months.
    (snip/...)
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB67/index2.htm...
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moddemny Donating Member (400 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #170
177. "Now you know that wasn't an invasion, don't you?"
If it was an America President (and I am not talking Bush, any President) Che supporters wouldn't be making the distinction between intervention or invasion, would they?


"Cuba made the decision to send troops without informing the Soviet Union and deployed them, contrary to what has been widely alleged, without any Soviet assistance for the first two months."

Because there wasn't an overt public statement of cooperation I am suppose to accept it was completely Castro's decision? Even if you are given the extreme benefit of the doubt that Castro acted independently both Castro and the Soviets are going by an almost identical revolutionary playbook, they may not be on the same paragraph but they are definitely on the same page, which brings us to the bigger picture.


Let's take a step back and look at the revolutionary playbook the goal of which is to spread the Communist revolution around the world. It is a given that Che wanted to spread Communism throughout Latin America. The article you yourself posted points to the fact that Castro had his eye on Africa.


"In this first account of Cuba's policy in Africa based on documentary evidence, Gleijeses describes and analyzes Castro's dramatic dispatch of 30,000 Cubans to Angola in 1975-76, and he traces the roots of this policyfrom Havana's assistance to the Algerian rebels fighting France in 1961 to the secret war between Havana and Washington in Zaire in 1964-65 and Cuba's decisive contribution to Guinea-Bissau's war of independence from 1966"


Add to that they were cooperating with the Soviets who already occupied Eastern Europe (and were sponsoring proxy wars all over the rest of the globe). The Warsaw Pact had 60,000 tanks, many in Central Europe, against NATO's 20,000. They had an Air Force at least twice as large and their Navy also had significant advantages over NATO in many ways. The Soviets had 300 submarines, the U.S. 100 which would have made reinenforcement of Western Europe very very difficult.( There were also growing Communist movements in Italy and Greece, who would have cooperated with the invaders, and some say France could have turned Communist as well.) At any moment those tanks could have been across the border with a very real chance of success at swallowing the rest of Europe. If this coincided with Che/Castro and their allies succeeding in Latin America and parts of Africa along with Asia going Communist (The Soviets simply had to have a temporary alliance with the Chinese, what was left of US Forces in North Korea would have been over run and a successful partial if not complete invasion of Japan was very possible. At the very least the Soviet Union's Pacific Fleet, about 800 ships at its height could have blockaded and cutoff Japan taking it out of the picture) where would the U.S. be? Surrounded by a sea of Communist countries. Even worse is the fact that before a conventional war ended someone would have started using tactical nukes which eventually would have went to a strategic nuclear exchange. All of this was a very real possibility at the height of the Cold war.

Now you want me to respect people who if they had their ultimate vision realized would have meant a potential invasion of the U.S.? or a potential nuclear war? Are you f**kin nuts?


Now against this greater goal Che/Castro/Communist supporters sit back and accuse the U.S. of imperialistic goals as if it's the only country to have ever done anyone harm? The CIA may have went overboard in it's reactions in some places, what people forget is that the Kremlin and KGB were much, much worse.


On top of all this there are Communist supporters here claiming that Communism is good for it's citizens when a great deal of the production/spending went for military goals instead for the consumer in order to fight the final war.


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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #168
185. Again, you fail in convincing me your evidence outweighs JL's.
Keep trying, though, it's adorable.

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moddemny Donating Member (400 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #100
161. You put a lot of effort in debunking one author........
when the qoutes you were originally in denial about are are all over the place. I guess that's the reason is called the "cult of che". It's much bigger than one author, are you going to run around and try to discredit every single story of every person that was falsely imprisoned, tortured, killed by the former Communist regimes of the 20th century because that's what you going to have to do. One thread on Democraticunderground isn't going to wipe out there memories it's only going to convince those that can be easily and readily duped.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #54
63. I was among those that shouted "two, three, many Vietnams"!
American genocide in Vietnam and elsewhere had to be defeated, just as surely as Bush's imperialism must be obliterated in all countries where it rears its ugly head.
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 07:43 AM
Response to Reply #63
128. "genocide in Vietnam"
Cite?
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #128
130. Cite it yourself!
Edited on Tue Oct-11-05 07:46 AM by IndianaGreen
If you don't know we killed over a million civilians in Vietnam, then it is your responsibility to educate yourself.

Hint: Start with John Kerry's testimony to Congress when he was one of the leaders of Vietnam Veterans Against the War, and then do a Google on Ron Kovic.
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #130
131. That's not a cite.
I know of no reputable historian who has ever described the Vietnam war as genocide. This is a novel interperetation of those events, so I was assuming that you would be able to cite a source for that claim.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #131
134. If the Vietnamese had carpet bombed your town, or had used Agent Orange
on your fields and crops, you would definitely feel like you were the victim of genocide.

Do some reading on Plan Colombia. We haven't changed!
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #134
135. Then by that definition...
...the fire-bombing of Dressden and the London blitz were acts of genocide, and again, nobody considers that to be the case. I'm just saying that you should call it what it is. A war crime? Most certainly. But it isn't genocide.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #54
66. By the way, how do you explain sending men and women
to fight a phoney war in a country having nothing to do with 9/11, then torturing innumerable people rounded up in sweeps both in Afghanistan, and in Iraq?

How do you explain the unbearable suffering forced upon entire villages in Latin America by U.S. trained and supported puppets, supported by Nixon/Kissinger, and Ford, and Reagan, and Bush I? If that isn't mindless, vicious, evil violence, I wouldn't know what is.
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 06:29 AM
Response to Reply #54
118. Well, maybe a new Indira Ghandi.
:hide:
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #25
44. Umm...
I hate to ruin your little RW fantasy...but Cuba is VERY free. Those 1.3 million Cubans living here are largely fascist supporters, who want a government which rapes its people for the benefit of the few -- the kind of government Uncle Sam wants. Not only does the Cuban government represent the people, it actually helps them and gives the people what they deserve and need.

Those "dissidents" you cite were US-funded to destabilize Cuba (that is illegal in the US as well). They were sponsored by the same administration that has created a special position to topple the Cuban government for imperialist aims. They were sponsored by the same country that invaded Cuba and has tried to do a great amount of damage to Cuba and its people in the past half-century. That would never be tolerated ANYWHERE.

I challenge you to go to Cuba and listen to American news that COULD be jammed by Cuba, but isn't (they jammed a radio frequence before...when it was US-run propaganda station, but they don't for regular news, why?).

Another thing: the Cuban people are represented better than the American people. The system of government is truly one that is accountable and representative of its community.

Read up:
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQDemocracy.h...
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #44
81. Yeah, Amnesty International is pretty right-wing.
That's why they've documented Cuba's charming little lapses in human rights. They're just too in love with their right-wing ideology to see that Cuba is so very free.
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #81
151. Nice strawman
however, the reality is that Amnesty Int. has ignored the specifics in this situation. Those dissidents are known to be sponsored by the US, which is not only illegal (accepting foreign funds) in most countries, but it aimed to topple Cuba's government.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #25
60. 1.3 million Cubans living in U.S. that voted for Bush!
They are also the ones that want to impose in Cuba the same filthy religion that Dobson, Robertson and others are trying to impose in the US.

They are also largely anti-Semites!

BTW, not all Cubans in the US hold such a rosy view of America or of the pre-Castro days, and they don't vote for Republicans.
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 07:34 AM
Response to Reply #16
125. Yes,
May we all look up to murdering fascist pigs to save us.
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ret5hd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 07:34 AM
Response to Reply #11
18. wow...the wonders of the modern education system shine again!
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moddemny Donating Member (400 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #18
27. "the wonders of the modern education system shine"
Edited on Mon Oct-10-05 03:43 PM by moddemny
Actually I had plenty of Marxist professors who like a few people here tried to convince me I lived in one of the most vile countries on Earth. Whoever thought a college professor is automatically an anti-communist? I had a very healthy dose of lectures on the evils of capitalism.


One more myth put to rest (about American education).
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #27
59. And how many average Americans get to see
a professor in the first place? Oh, I thought so.

Try looking at the education system most people get, then you might get somewhere.

Well, when it comes to vileness, there's no list, but we clearly possess that quality in many ways.

One more myth put to rest (about America).
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ret5hd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. thank you for beating me to it, brother/sister. (nt)
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nick303 Donating Member (379 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #59
191. The answer to your question:
By percentage, more than anywhere else in the world. See The Economist's
September 8th survey on higher education.
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #191
215. The answer to your mistaken perceptions:
Edited on Wed Oct-12-05 03:05 PM by manic expression
Relatively, much less, far less, than what it should be. We are a first world nation with third world poverty, and we can't even help our fellow countrymen in a time of disaster (does a certain name come to mind...like, Katrina?). We also happen to be the richest country in the world, and yet our performance in education, especially higher education, is deplorable at best. If you think that our present rate of higher education is even close to acceptable, you are beyond wrong.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #215
218. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #218
219. Don't accuse DU'ers of anti-Americanism. This is not the place
Edited on Wed Oct-12-05 05:59 PM by Judi Lynn
for personal attacks. It's mentioned in the DU rules, if you had checked.

The "higher education-going public" is generally represented more by Democrats. Republicans have been described in polls as being a little less educated as a group.


The poster to whom you've addressed your remarks has made excellent comments consistent with views already expressed here by many, many Democrats.
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nick303 Donating Member (379 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #219
226. I didn't mean it as an attack on the person
Edited on Wed Oct-12-05 10:41 PM by nick303
Again, I apologize if this was viewed as personal, I only was opposed to the ideas expressed. American higher education is still nothing to look down on, and I admit that I have a strong opinion on this. I believe that is neither a conservative nor a liberal view.

I don't know what manic expression's metrics are for "good education".
I hope to learn that in a followup. From what I've seen here so far I can only conclude that their view of American higher education is that it's, well, not too good, despite that their location is listed as "US". My first post was a solicitation of his/her reasoning for believing such a thing. I was not provided with any.

My deconstruction of your arguments follows. Identifying the name of each fallacy is left as an exercise for the reader.

1) S1: People choose America more than anywhere else as a foreign destination for higher education.
S2: People with a lot of education are generally represented by Democrats, not Republicans.
Conclusion: (I'm not sure, but it doesn't sound pleasant. Perhaps: nick 303 is a buffoon, or worse!!).

This is a ____________.

2) S1: Some comments by Democrats (C) are excellent comments (E).
S2: Comment X is a member of C.
Conclusion: Comment X is a member of E.

This is a ____________.
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nick303 Donating Member (379 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #215
225. My comments were addressing your points.
My apologies if they were misconstrued.

Can I ask questions instead?

1) Response to Katrina was disastrous. I agree. What specifically does that have to do with what I said?
2) If our attempt at higher education is deplorable, and my previous assertion is "beyond wrong", who should we look to as a model for improvement? How should we follow their example?
3) If you have completed an undergraduate degree or equivalent, where was it? If it was an American institution, why did you bother when you could have done better elsewhere?
4) I would estimate that my undergrad (US) university had a class size that was at least 20% international. The number for my current (US) grad. institution is 50% international. Why did these people come here? Why do I only know one person who grew up in the US that completed their entire undergraduate degree abroad?

Again, for reference, I recommend reading the survey located at http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=4339...



I have found that you no longer need a print subscription to read it, but it does require viewing an ad (a la Salon's day pass).
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Kralizec Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #11
19. Many wanted to. Do some research. The way that the U.S. handled,
or tried to handle Che, were the first facts (gov't docs) that began my disillusionment of the United States. I had spent my entire childhood thinking the same way you do about *any* "enemies" of our country. Little did I know why so many enemies exist and how noble their causes were/are, despite violent tendencies. Despite that, we live in a very violent society, so what's the problem?

Hasta la Victoria Siempre! SIEMPRE!
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. Many certainly wanted to, but he didn't take advantage of them....
He was handsome & charismatic. (Perhaps it was the Irish blood?) In post-revolutionary days, many women of Cuba expressed their gratitude to the dashing barbudos who had conquered the corrupt Batista regime. Che was married twice & had a lover or two, but did NOT believe in promiscuity.




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moddemny Donating Member (400 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. "that began my disillusionment of the United States."
This has nothing to do with the United States, it has to do with the Cuban people.
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Kralizec Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #26
55. Oh please!!
Edited on Mon Oct-10-05 05:37 PM by Kralizec
Seriously, go learn about the involvement of our government with the Bolivian Army in their fight with Che. The CIA was all over that shit. And then go see what our government requested be done with the body of him, and what they did with his body. Then go and see how I was able to take what I learned here and go on to other injustices that our government has been doing for a very long time in Latin America. NO, my disillusionment has everything to do with the United States, and very little to do with Cuba, other than it being just another country in Latin America that has fought politically with the U.S.

edit: switched "South America" to "Latin America"
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #26
68. Actually, the OP's article deals with Venezuela and how Che's daughter
feels about the Bolivarian revolution. She correctly points out that were it not for US aggression, Chavez would have followed a reformist path.

Isn't that what happened to the Cuban Revolution? Were it not for American aggression, which included acts of terrorism, Cuba would not have been forced to put in place security measures to defend the people and their revolution.

Didn't we do the same thing after 9/11?
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. No, we did not do the same thing after 9/11
Edited on Mon Oct-10-05 06:39 PM by Mika
The post revolution Cuban government actually defended their sovereignty. The Cuban government actually improved their education system to world class levels. The Cuban government actually improved their health care systems to world class levels. The Cuban government actually improved their status worldwide and especially with 3rd world impoverished nations.

Did the post 9/11 US government (the Bush regime) actually do any of these things in/for the USA? Nope.


The post 9/11 US government approach to "defense" was to weaken the US domestic infrastructure and international standing. The post 9/11 US government declared international & generational world war.

The post revolution Cuban government has done the opposite - by strengthening their social infrastructure as well as their international standings. The post revolution Cuban government strengthened its international & generational world ties by standing with the poor, impoverished, sick, dispossessed and undernourished - by helping as much as they can.




Fuck Bush and his wars!!

Viva Cuba and their peace!

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NVMojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #11
24. grumpy little new one!!!
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. Definitely! n/t
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donsu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 10:41 AM
Response to Original message
21. socialism is not a bad word, neither is feminism but the bushgang

would have you think so.
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afdip Donating Member (660 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
30. it's the old joke
comrade, what is the difference between capitalism and socialism?

answer: under capitalism, man exploits man, but under socialism, it's the other way around.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. What our Republican Presidents have done to the citizens of Latin America
and the Caribbean is no laughing matter. Their brand of capitalism kills.
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ret5hd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #33
64. their brand of capitalism is called...
(at BEST) indentured servitude...and at worst genocide.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #64
67. W.E.B. DuBois described capitalism best
"Capitalism cannot reform itself No universal selfishness can bring social good to all."
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 07:43 PM
Response to Original message
72. Cuba Report To UN On Why USA's Blockade Must End
Cuba Report To UN On Why USA's Blockade Must End
Tuesday, 11 October 2005, 10:15 am
Press Release: Cuba Government

Report by Cuba on Resolution 59/11 of the United Nations General Assembly

INTRODUCTION

The economic, commercial and financial blockade impose by the United States against Cuba is the longest-lasting and cruelest of its kind know to human history and is an essential element in the United States hostile and aggressive policies regarding the Cuban people. Its aim, made explicit on 6 April 1960 is the destruction of the Cuban Revolution: () through frustration and discouragement based on dissatisfaction and economic difficulties () to withhold funds and supplies to Cuba in order to cut real income thereby causing starvation, desperation and the overthrow of the government (...)

It is equally an essential component of the policy of state terrorism against Cuba which silently, systematically, cumulatively, inhumanly, ruthlessly affects the population with no regard for age, sex, race, religious belief or social position.

This policy, implemented and added to by ten US administrations also amounts to an act of genocide under the provisions of paragraph (c) of article II of the Geneva Convention for the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide of 9 December 1948 and therefore constitutes a violation of International Law. This Convention defines this as () acts perpetrated with the intention to totally or partially destroy a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, and in these cases provides for the intentional subjugation of the group to conditions that result in their total or partial physical destruction.

The blockade on Cuba is an act of economic war. There is no regulation of International Law which justifies a blockade in times of peace. Since 1909, in the London Naval Conference, as a principle of International Law it was defined that blockade is an act of war, and based on this, its use is only possible between countries at war.
(snip/...)

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO0510/S00197.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Cuba embargo 'unfounded, unfair and deeply illegal'

Vanessa Arrington | Havana, Cuba

28 September 2005 09:18

~snip~

Democrats and free-trade Republicans in the US Congress for years have pushed for easing the sanctions but have yet to make headway against an administration determined to keep up the pressure. Anti-Castro Cuban-Americans, concentrated in Florida, have been strong supporters of Bush and the Republican Party.

If more Americans knew how much hardship the embargo caused Cubans in their daily life, they would surely demand its end, Rodriguez said.

"Americans can be continually deceived, and manipulated, but eventually they arrive at the truth and they act," he said.

The United Nations General Assembly condemned the embargo, urging the US to end the policy for the 13th straight year in a vote last fall. Last year's UN resolution calling for the embargo to be repealed was approved by a vote of 179-4, with only the United States, Israel, the Marshall Islands and Palau opposed.
(snip/...)
http://www.mg.co.za/articlepage.aspx?area=/breaking_new...
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #72
91. Americans hate the lower races that thumb their noses at them!
Edited on Tue Oct-11-05 12:14 AM by IndianaGreen
America is a racist country! America was born in racism! America remains in racism! This is why Americans refused to establish relations with Vietnam for as long as they did, it was because the white male egos were bruised from being beaten by little yellow people. This is why Americans also have an embargo against Cuba. The American white male egos were bruised by having their former island whorehouse decide that they were human after all and refuse to be exploited by Uncle Sam.

Ask any old fart that hates Fidel and they will always tell you how wonderful Cuba was when it had casinos and whorehouses for our Navy boys.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #91
92. Yep, it was called the "Whorehouse of the Caribbean."
Even heard that on a British documentary film about Havana.

Here's a funny site, "funny" meaning "odd," showing things as they were, and you can tell after looking at the info. that it was written in the 1950's. It was truly an odd place, meant to entertain Americans. You're correct.

http://cuban-exile.com/menu1/%21entertain.html
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #92
94. Thank you for the link.
How easily we forget how bad things really were in Cuba for the Cubans. Cuba was America's sex slave capital!
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 04:28 AM
Response to Reply #92
101. More from this 1950's Cuba tourism link:
"NIGHT CLUB IN THE SKY" was a regular flight from Miami to Havana which featured dancers doing a cabaret act from the Tropicana Hotel.
Unfortunately the photos don't seem to work now. This site has been tampered with: at one time all the photos worked.

http://cuban-exile.com/doc_201-225/doc0201.html

This contains a U.S. Navy Fleet link from 1954. Yes, as I.G. said, the Navy used Cuba for recreation, even though they could have simply gone 90 miles farther to Miami. They had oportunities available in Cuba which weren't to be found in the U.S.

http://cuban-exile.com/menu1/%21tourism.html
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 05:55 AM
Response to Reply #92
108. now its the whore house for European tourists
just under a different management.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 05:59 AM
Response to Reply #108
110. It would be good to see your evidence. It's not "prudent" to take
Edited on Tue Oct-11-05 06:21 AM by Judi Lynn
someone's opinion as fact.

On edit:

In anticipation, I grabbed the first link I saw in a search to reinforce my former statement in another post that before the Cuban revolution, Cuba was known as the "Whorehouse of the Caribbean."
In addition to the hardships now being suffered by the Cuban people, there is the spectre of the death of Fidel and the struggle for leadership that will come. There is no apparent successor and there are thousands of Miami Cubans, many of whom were not born or were infants when Fidel kicked out the Mafia-controlled and Corporate-owned dictator Batista.

The Mainland Cubans are slobbering to go back and kick the present residents off 'their' land and out of 'their' property. Of course, the majority of the exiles have never seen the property they want to reclaim. Nothing but blood and inhumanity will follow. And Havana will once again be the whorehouse of the Caribbean, run by the Mob."
(snip/...)
http://www.truthinmedia.org/truthinmedia/Bulletins99/ti...

On edit:

Adding more info. to the link describing Batista's Cuba:
Tourism was Cuba's second largest industry - before tourism had become common for the average U.S. citizen. People with money went to Cuba to enjoy its fine beaches - for their exclusive use - for the casino gambling, lewd shows and open prostitution of all kinds. A percentage of the money won from the tourist industries went straight to Batista, and Batista paid his go-betweens well.

The best casino was run by a U.S. gangster, Meyer Lansky, a casino that for a while had the only honest gaming. The Cuban government had Lansky instruct and transform Cuban-owned casinos into honest establishments similar to his.

Among Latin American nations, Cuba was third in per capita income. (Venezuela was first at around 38 percent of the average income of U.S. citizens, and Argentina was second at 24 percent.) The average Cuban made 19 percent of what the average U.S. citizen earned, and in Cuba a large gap existed between better off families and the common Cuban worker. Forty-three percent of the population was still rural. Sugar cane harvesting occurred only a couple months of the year, leaving cane cutters unemployed the rest of the year. Telephones were still for the middle and upper class in the major cities - one person in 38 having a telephone.
(snip/...)
http://www.fsmitha.com/h2/ch24t63.html
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 06:02 AM
Response to Reply #110
111. When were you there?
Please supply details.
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 06:15 AM
Response to Reply #110
113. here is a quick link but you can do a search on Cuba prostitution
and you will find thousands of hits. just had dinner with someone there who was lived there in an "official" capacity and was told all about it. but then again, the same is true for the DR and Brazil and much of latin america for that matter. http://www.businessfightsaids.org/site/apps/nl/content2...
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 04:38 AM
Response to Original message
102. Yeah, I'm sure it must be nice...
...being a member of the political elite in Cuba. I'm sure communism's working out very well for her.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 05:01 AM
Response to Reply #102
103. This article may shed a tiny bit of light. Found it in a search tonight.
It's a decent article.
I have visited the island twice. There is no general climate of fear. People do speak freely, criticising their government, but criticising the US government far more. Cubans also participate at much higher levels than Australians in political system.
(snip/)
http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/2005/619/619p16.htm
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 05:14 AM
Response to Reply #103
104. Here's some information from a reliable source:
Edited on Tue Oct-11-05 05:14 AM by yibbehobba
Last year, the Cuban authorities sentenced 75 opposition activists to jail terms of up to 28 years, prompting criticism from the European Union and the United States.

All 10 defendants in the latest trial were arrested on 4 March 2002, when they tried to visit an independent journalist, who had allegedly been beaten by police at a hospital in Ciego de Avila, 400 km (249 miles) east of Havana.

They have been detained since then.


More from the BBC:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3664527.stm

Cuban authorities continue to treat as criminal offenses nonviolent activities such as meeting to discuss the economy or elections, writing letters to the government, reporting on political or economic developments, speaking to international reporters, or advocating the release of political prisoners. While the number of political prosecutions has diminished in the past few years, Cuban courts continue to try and imprison human rights activists, independent journalists, economists, doctors, and others for the peaceful expression of their views, subjecting them to the Cuban prison system's extremely poor conditions. Even as Cuba released some political prisoners early in 1998most of whom had completed most of their sentencescontinuing trials replenished their numbers. Prison remained a plausible threat to any Cubans considering nonviolent opposition. In the case of four dissident leaders arrested in July 1997 and only triedfor inciting seditionin March 1999, receiving sentences ranging fromthree and one-half to five years, the arbitrariness of Cuban repression was starkly on display.

More from Human Rights Watch:
http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/cuba /



While the number of identified prisoners of conscience has declined steadily over the last years, Amnesty International and other organizations have noted with concern an increase in other types of violations, including short-term arbitrary arrest, threats, summonses and other forms of harassment directed by the state against political dissidents, independent journalists and other activists in an effort to limit their ability to exercise fundamental freedoms.(10)

Such harassment, in addition to targetting the most vocal or well-known activists, has increasingly been used to stifle broader initiatives such as the Proyecto Varela, a petition for a referendum on legal reform that has reportedly collected the 10,000 voters' signatures required to introduce the subject before the Asamblea Nacional del Poder Popular, National Assembly of People's Power.(11) In addition, several recent incidents of the use of violence against protestors could signal the beginning of an extremely worrying trend in the Cuban authorities' efforts to repress dissent. These include the security forces' response to the events of 27 February 2002, when 21 Cubans drove a bus into the grounds of the Mexican Embassy in Havana. Police officers and state security officials reportedly beat Reuters journalist Andrew Cawthorne and cameraman Alfredo Tedeschi with batons while trying to prevent them from covering the story. Security sources reported that up to 150 Cubans, who had gathered outside the embassy, were arrested in a mass crackdown. The 21 were eventually arrested as well, after police were allowed entry into the embassy. As this report went to print, a number of those detained, including several well known dissidents, remained in custody (see below).


More from Amnesty International:
http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engamr250022002


Sorry, but I give those sources more credibility than greenleft.org.au
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 05:45 AM
Response to Reply #104
105. Double Standards at Amnesty
Double Standards at Amnesty


What is going on at Amnesty International? The human rights group is displaying remarkable double standards when it comes to prisoners held by the US, and seems to be submitting to US pressures in the so-called war on terror. The best example of this is Amnestys treatment of Cuban prisoners.

Amnesty has soft-pedalled on the 600 prisoners held without charge or trial at the US military base in Cubas Guantanamo Bay, and on five Cuban political prisoners held in Florida, yet has acted with massive energy in the case of 75 pro-US Cubans jailed by the Cuban government.

Of course, we do not expect Amnesty to be courageous in politically charged cases. The group has long irritated solidarity activists by refusing to take on controversial cases such as those of South Africas Nelson Mandela and East Timors Xanana Gusmao, both of whom were charged over involvement in armed struggle against repressive regimes. Amnestys choice to avoid such controversy, and to stick to less controversial cases where procedural rules were ignored, has kept it politically safe, but has also focussed it on regimes less inclined to fabricate pretexts for the detention of their political opponents. This in turn has allowed Amnesty greater standing amongst western governments, and the US in particular.

However, while we may not expect Amnesty to demonstrate the courage of its convictions, shouldnt we expect a human rights group to maintain consistent standards over those it declares prisoners of conscience and those for whom it demands immediate release'?
(snip)

Note that US members of Amnesty International (and particularly US lawyers) are compromised by their own countrys Cuban Democracy law (the Helms Burton Act, 1996) to support the overthrow of the Cuban system, and also prevented by US law from assisting, or even visiting Cuba, without a special license from the US Treasury.
(snip/...)

http://agitprop.org.au/nowar/20040823_ta_double_standar...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Amnesty International 2005 Report on the USA:

<1> Showing results 1 - 31 out of 1333
06/10/2005 USA: Senate motion against cruel and degrading treatment (NEWS)
AMR 51/161/2005
03/10/2005 USA/Egypt: Further Information on: Fear of torture/ill-treatment/Health concern: Sami al-Laithi (m) (URGENT ACTIONS)
AMR 51/159/2005
28/09/2005 USA (Indiana): Further information on: Death Penalty: Alan Lehman Matheney (m), white (URGENT ACTIONS)
AMR 51/158/2005
27/09/2005 USA: Amnesty International calls for independent inquiry into shooting of Filiberto Ojedo Ros (NEWS)
AMR 51/157/2005
26/09/2005 USA (Alabama): Further Information: Death Penalty: John W. Peoples Jr, white (m) (URGENT ACTIONS)
AMR 51/156/2005
23/09/2005 USA: Guantnamo hunger strikers critically ill (NEWS)
AMR 51/154/2005
22/09/2005 USA: Stonewalled : Police abuse and misconduct against lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people in the U.S. (REPORTS)
AMR 51/122/2005
22/09/2005 USA (California): Transgender woman ill-treated and raped in jail (REPORTS)
AMR 51/142/2005
22/09/2005 USA: Police mistreatment and abuse widespread in lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender communities nationwide (NEWS)
AMR 51/150/2005
21/09/2005 USA: Who are the Guantnamo Detainees? Case Sheet 12. Ethiopian national/UK resident: Benyam Mohammed al Habashi. (REPORTS)
AMR 51/152/2005
20/09/2005 Benin: Government must repudiate illegal impunity agreement with the USA (NEWS)
AFR 14/001/2005
16/09/2005 USA (Alabama): Death Penalty: John W. Peoples Jr, white (m) (URGENT ACTIONS)
AMR 51/148/2005
16/09/2005 USA (Indiana): Death Penalty: Alan Lehman Matheney (m), white (URGENT ACTIONS)
AMR 51/149/2005
15/09/2005 USA (Texas): Further information on: Death Penalty/ Legal concern: Frances Elaine Newton (f), black (URGENT ACTIONS)
AMR 51/147/2005
13/09/2005 USA: Further information on: Incommunicado detention/detention without charge/legal concern/fear of torture/ill-treatment: Jose Padilla (also known as Abdullah al-Mujahir) (m) (URGENT ACTIONS)
AMR 51/145/2005
09/09/2005 USA (Ohio): Further information on: Death Penalty, John Spirko (m) (URGENT ACTIONS)
AMR 51/144/2005
07/09/2005 USA: Fear of torture/ill-treatment/Health concern. Sami al-Laithi (m) (URGENT ACTIONS)
AMR 51/141/2005
06/09/2005 USA: Ensure the safety of victims of Hurricane Katrina (NEWS)
AMR 51/140/2005
05/09/2005 USA: Further information on Prisoner of conscience, Kevin Benderman (m) (URGENT ACTIONS)
AMR 51/137/2005
31/08/2005 USA: Further Information on: Legal concern / health concern / torture (URGENT ACTIONS)
AMR 51/136/2005
30/08/2005 USA (Indiana): Further information on: Death Penalty, Arthur P Baird II (URGENT ACTIONS)
AMR 51/135/2005
24/08/2005 USA (Ohio): Death Penalty: John Spirko (m) (URGENT ACTIONS)
AMR 51/133/2005
23/08/2005 USA (Texas): Death Penalty/ Legal concern, Frances Elaine Newton (URGENT ACTIONS)
AMR 51/132/2005
18/08/2005 Germany: Hamburg court violates international law by admitting evidence potentially obtained through torture (NEWS)
EUR 23/001/2005
16/08/2005 USA: Further information on: Legal concern/health concern/torture: Unknown number of Guantnamo detainees (URGENT ACTIONS)
AMR 51/131/2005
16/08/2005 USA: Who are the Guantanamo detainees: Case sheet 11: Bahraini national: Jumah al-Dossari (REPORTS)
AMR 51/129/2005
15/08/2005 USA (Indiana): Death Penalty, Arthur P Baird II (URGENT ACTIONS)
AMR 51/128/2005
11/08/2005 USA: Further information on: Incommunicado detention/detention without charge/legal concern, Ali-Saleh Kahlah al-Marri (URGENT ACTIONS)
AMR 51/124/2005
09/08/2005 USA: Prisoner of conscience, Kevin Benderman (URGENT ACTIONS)
AMR 51/123/2005
05/08/2005 USA: Guantnamo detainees must not be returned to more abuse (NEWS)
AMR 51/121/2005
<2> Showing results 31 - 61 out of 1333
05/08/2005 USA: Further information on: Fear of forcible return to torture or ill-treatment: An unknown number of Guantnamo detainees (URGENT ACTIONS)
AMR 51/120/2005
04/08/2005 USA: Torture and secret detention: Testimony of the 'disappeared' in the 'war on terror' (REPORTS)
AMR 51/108/2005
04/08/2005 USA/ Jordan/ Yemen: Secret detention centres (NEWS)
AMR 51/112/2005
04/08/2005 USA: Torture and secret detention - Testimony of the 'disappeared' in the 'war on terror'. Action Sheet 1 - US Authorities (REPORTS)
AMR 51/117/2005
04/08/2005 Jordan: Why the US impunity agreement is illegal (NEWS)
MDE 16/006/2005
01/08/2005 Egypt: Testimony of the 'disappeared' in the 'war on terror'. Action Sheet 4 - Egyptian Authorities (REPORTS)
MDE 12/029/2005
01/08/2005 Yemen: Testimony of the 'disappeared' in the 'war on terror'. Action sheet 3 - Yemeni Authorities (REPORTS)
MDE 31/011/2005
01/08/2005 The Wire, August 2005. Vol. 35, No.7. (REPORTS)
NWS 21/007/2005
01/08/2005 Cruel. Inhuman. Degrades us all. Stop torture and Ill-treatment in the 'War on terror' (REPORTS)
ACT 40/010/2005
29/07/2005 Jordan: Amnesty International urges the Senate to reject the agreement giving United States nationals impunity from the International Criminal Court (NEWS)
MDE 16/005/2005
29/07/2005 USA (Texas): Further information on Death Penalty: David Martinez (URGENT ACTIONS)
AMR 51/118/2005
22/07/2005 USA (Texas): Death Penalty: David Martinez (m), Hispanic, aged 29 (URGENT ACTIONS)
AMR 51/115/2005
21/07/2005 USA: Military commissions should not be resumed (NEWS)
AMR 51/113/2005
21/07/2005 USA: Legal concern/health concern/torture: Unknown number of Guantnamo detainees (URGENT ACTIONS)
AMR 51/114/2005
05/07/2005 Pakistan/USA: Further information on: Incommunicado detention / Fear of "disappearance" / Fear of torture or ill-treatment / Fear of forcible transfer (URGENT ACTIONS)
ASA 33/018/2005
01/07/2005 USA: Who are the Guantnamo detainees? Case sheet 10: Chadian national: Mohamed C (REPORTS)
AMR 51/110/2005
28/06/2005 USA (Alabama): Death Penalty/Legal concern, Anthony Ray Hinton (URGENT ACTIONS)
AMR 51/105/2005
24/06/2005 USA: UN scrutiny essential in preventing torture and ill-treatment (NEWS)
AMR 51/104/2005
22/06/2005 The G8: global arms exporters: Failing to prevent irresponsible arms transfers (REPORTS)
POL 30/007/2005
22/06/2005 USA: Close Guantnamo and disclose the rest Opinion piece by Irene Khan, Amnesty International Secretary General (NEWS)
AMR 51/101/2005
22/06/2005 USA: Close Guantnamo and disclose the rest (REPORTS)
AMR 51/100/2005
17/06/2005 USA: Reaction to plans to expand Guantnamo camp (NEWS)
AMR 51/099/2005
17/06/2005 USA: Reaction to plans to expand Guantnamo camp (NEWS)
AMR 51/099/2005
15/06/2005 Nepal: Military assistance contributing to grave human rights violations (REPORTS)
ASA 31/047/2005
14/06/2005 USA: Torture or other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment/Legal concern, Mohammed C. (URGENT ACTIONS)
AMR 51/097/2005
14/06/2005 USA: In defense of Amnesty International (REPORTS)
AMR 51/096/2005
08/06/2005 USA: Statement by Irene Khan, Amnesty International Secretary General (NEWS)
AMR 51/095/2005
07/06/2005 USA: Fear of torture and ill-treatment / Fear of "disappearance" (URGENT ACTIONS)
AMR 51/094/2005
07/06/2005 USA: US detentions in Afghanistan: an aide-mmoire for continued action (REPORTS)
AMR 51/093/2005
01/06/2005 USA: Who are the Guantnamo detainees? Case sheet 9: Libyan citizen/UK resident: Omar Deghayes (REPORTS)
AMR 51/088/2005

2 pages of 40 in this years report. Link: http://web.amnesty.org/library/eng-usa/index&start=1



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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 06:26 AM
Response to Reply #105
115. The australian communist party's views on Amnesty...
...should be of no concern to reasonable people anywhere in the world.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 06:28 AM
Response to Reply #115
117. Pardon me, but that was the Green Party, wasn't it?
Why would you attempt to claim otherwise?
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 06:34 AM
Response to Reply #117
119. http://agitprop.org.au/
"Welcome to the Blacktown Branch Communist Party of Australia."

I especially like their artwork depicting Lenin (whose views on human rights were well-known.)
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 06:45 AM
Response to Reply #119
120. Didn't know the link was "them commies."
It must all be lies, then. You're right to blow the whistle!



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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 07:26 AM
Response to Reply #120
124. Let me get this straight:
The Communist Party of Australia is a more reputable source for information on human rights abuses than either Human Rights Watch or Amnesty International?

Please.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 07:49 AM
Response to Reply #124
132. Here's an open letter from Amnesty International's executive director,
William F. Schultz to your pResident which should be read in entirety, as it seems somewhat serious in tone:
Annual Report
Statement Of Dr. William F. Schulz Executive Director, Amnesty International USA
May 25, 2005
Good morning. Im William F. Schulz, Executive Director of Amnesty International USA. Today, Amnesty International releases its annual report on the state of human rights around the world. What we have found brings shame to governments from Afghanistan to the United States. We have documented that the use of torture and ill treatment is widespread and that the US government is a leading purveyor and practitioner of this odious human rights violation.

The refusal of the US government to conduct a truly independent investigation into the abuses at Abu Ghraib prison and other detention centers is tantamount to a whitewash, if not a cover-up, of these disgraceful crimes. It is a failure of leadership to prosecute only enlisted soldiers and a few officers while protecting those who designed a deliberate government policy of torture and authorized interrogation techniques that constitute torture or cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment. The governments investigation must climb all the way to the top of the military and civilian chain of command.

If the US government continues to shirk its responsibility, Amnesty International calls on foreign governments to uphold their obligations under international law by investigating all senior US officials involved in the torture scandal. And if those investigations support prosecution, the governments should arrest any official who enters their territory and begin legal proceedings against them. The apparent high-level architects of torture should think twice before planning their next vacation to places like Acapulco or the French Riviera because they may find themselves under arrest as Augusto Pinochet famously did in London in 1998.

Former Secretary of State Colin Powell warned in 2002 that a failure to apply international law to detainees in Afghanistan may provoke some individual foreign prosecutors to investigate and prosecute our officials and troops. Its not too late for President Bush to heed those words today and apply international law to all who are responsible for torture at all US detention centers.

Secretary Powell also argued at the time that adhering to international law preserves US credibility and moral authority by taking the high ground.
How far from that moral high ground the US government has fallen: Its descent into torture and ill treatment includes beatings, prolonged restraint in painful positions, hooding and the use of dogs at Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo Bay and Bagram Air Base and rendering detainees to countries that practice torture.

Tolerance for torture and ill treatment, signaled by a failure to investigate and prosecute those responsible, is the most effective encouragement for it to expand and grow. Like a virus, the techniques used by the United States will multiply and spread unless those who plotted their use are held accountable. Those who conducted the abusive interrogations must be held to account, but so too must those who schemed to authorize those actions, sometimes from the comfort of government buildings. If the United States permits the architects of torture policy to get off scot-free, then other nations should step into the breach.

Foreign governments that are party to the Geneva Conventions and/or the Convention against Tortureand that is some 190 countriesand countries that have national legislation that authorizes prosecutionand that is at least 125 countrieshave a legally binding obligation to exercise what is known as universal jurisdiction over people accused of grave breaches of the Conventions. Governments are required to investigate suspects and, if warranted, to prosecute them or to extradite them to a country that will. Crimes such as torture are so serious that they amount to an offense against all of humanity and require governments to investigate and prosecute people responsible for those crimesno matter where the crime was committed.

Amnesty Internationals list of those who may be considered high-level torture architects includes Donald Rumsfeld, who approved a December 2002 memorandum that permitted such unlawful interrogation techniques as stress positions, prolonged isolation, stripping, and the use of dogs at Guantanamo Bay; William Haynes, the Defense Department General Counsel who wrote that memo, and Douglas Feith, Under Secretary of Defense for Policy, who is cited in the memo as concurring with its recommendations.

Our list includes Major General Geoffrey Miller, Commander of the Joint Task Force Guantanamo, whose subordinates used some of the approved torture techniques and who was sent to Iraq where he recommended that prison guards soften up detainees for interrogations; former CIA Director George Tenet, whose agency kept so-called ghost detainees off registration logs and hidden during visits by the Red Cross and whose operatives reportedly used such techniques as water-boarding, feigning suffocation, stress positions, and incommunicado detention.

And it includes Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, who called the Geneva Conventions quaint and obsolete in a January 2002 memo and who requested the memos that fueled the atrocities at Abu Ghraib; Lieutenant General Ricardo Sanchez, former Commander of US Forces in Iraq, and Sanchez deputy, Major General Walter Wojdakowsi, who failed to ensure proper staff oversight of detention and interrogation operations at Abu Ghraib, according to the militarys Fay-Jones report, and Captain Carolyn Wood, who oversaw interrogation operations at Bagram Air Base and who permitted the use of dogs, stress positions and sensory deprivation.

While this is by no means an exhaustive list of those who deserve investigation, we would be remiss if we ignored President George W. Bushs role in the scandal. After all, his Administration has repeatedly justified its detention and interrogation policies as legitimate under the Presidents powers as Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces. And President Bush signed a February 2002 memo stating that the Geneva Conventions did not apply to Taliban or al Qaeda detainees and that their humane treatment should be contingent on military necessity. This set the stage for the tragic abuses of detainees.

Without full and impartial investigations of all key players, the torture scandal will come to be as indelibly associated with the Bush Presidency as Teapot Dome is with Warren Hardings or Watergate with Richard Nixons.

Whats more, it is the height of hypocrisy for the US government itself to use the very torture techniques that it routinely condemns in other countries.

The Bush Administration, which saw fit in its most recent Country Reports on Human Rights Practices to criticize Syria for administering electric shocks, appears to have used the same torture technique in the war on terror. Amnesty International took testimony, for example, from Mohammad al Dossari, who alleged that US soldiers subjected him to electric shocks, death threats, assault and humiliation in Kandahar.

The Bush Administration cited Egypt for beating victims with fists, whips and metal rods. And yet US Major Michael Smith testified at an administrative review hearing last year that an autopsy of a captured Iraqi general revealed he had suffered five broken ribs that were consistent with blunt force trauma, that is, either punching, kicking or striking with an object or being thrown into an object.

When the US government then calls upon foreign leaders to bring to justice those who commit or authorize human rights violations in their own countries, why should those foreign leaders listen? And if the US government does not abide by the same standards of justice, what shred of moral authority will we retain to pressure other governments to diminish abuses?

It is far past time for President Bush to prove that he is not covering up the misdeeds of senior officials and political cronies who designed and authorized these nefarious interrogation policies.

Congress must appoint an impartial and independent commission to investigate the masterminds of the atrocious human rights violations at Abu Ghraib and other detention centers, and President Bush should use the power of his office to press Congress to do so. Attorney General Gonzales must appoint an independent Special Counsel to conduct criminal investigations into administration officials, including himself, who are suspected of having committed, assisted, authorized, or condoned these abuses or had command responsibility for them. Such investigations must apply to both military and civilian officials who may be complicit in these crimes.

It is inexcusable that the few military higher-ups who have been held accountable have received the equivalent of a parental time out for their wrongdoing, among them Col. Thomas Pappas, the top military intelligence officer stationed at Abu Ghraib in 2003, who was given only a reprimand and a fine amounting to one months pay.

Even worse, for President Bush to promote and reward those who should be investigated makes a mockery of the principles of justice on which this nation was founded. Those who were rewarded include Gonzales, promoted from White House Counsel to the highest law enforcement position in the land; Timothy Flanigan, just nominated to serve as Gonzales second in command and who allegedly contributed to several key legal opinions that lead to torture; Haynes, the Defense counsel who was nominated to serve on the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals, and Jay Bybee, former Assistant Attorney General in the Office of Legal Counsel whose August 2002 memo argued that only interrogation techniques that cause pain that would ordinarily be associated with death or organ failure constitute torture and who was later nominated to the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals.

Furthermore, Amnesty International calls upon state bar authorities to investigate the Administration lawyers alleged to be involved in the torture scandal for failing to meet professional responsibility standards. The attorneys who wrote various legal opinions that may have provided cover for subsequent crimes and who should be investigated include Bybee and David Addington, General Counsel to Vice President Cheney; Robert Delahunty, former Special Counsel in the Office of Homeland Security, and three attorneys in the Office of Legal CounselJohn Yoo, former Deputy Assistant Attorney General, Patrick Philbin, Deputy Assistant Attorney General, and Jack Goldsmith, former Assistant Attorney General. We also call on the Justice Departments Office of Professional Responsibility to make public the findings of its investigation into the Bybee memo.

A wall of secrecy is protecting those who masterminded and developed the US torture policy. Unless those who drew the blueprint for torture, approved it and ordered it implemented are held accountable, the United States once proud reputation as an exemplar of human rights will remain in tatters. Its shattered image will continue to fuel anti-American sentiment around the globe and make the world a more dangerous place.

Amnesty Internationals new report documents just how dangerous the world remains.

Nepal is on the brink of catastrophe. Each day, civilians face possible torture, disappearances, political executions, abduction, arbitrary detention, rape and other abuses at the hands of government security forces and insurgents from the Communist Party of Nepal (Maoist). New cases of torture are reported almost daily, and hundreds of student activists, journalists, trade unionists and human rights defenders have been arrested.

Despite the Nepali governments poor human rights record, since 2001 the US government has provided it with more than $29 million in security assistance to fight the insurgents. Amnesty International strongly condemns the human rights violations committed by those insurgents but urges the US government to immediately suspend all security assistance to the Nepalese military until fundamental human rights protections are restored. We call on the government of Nepal to immediately release all prisoners of conscience, reinstate fundamental freedoms, and bring to justice security forces who commit abuses.

As if the tsunami disaster in Indonesia werent devastating enough, the human rights situation in the province of Aceh remains grave. The armed forces commit political killings, arbitrary detention, torture and sexual violence. The Indonesian government must prosecute and punish all those who were involved in gross human rights violations or who aided or abetted militia groups. President Bush, when he meets today with Indonesia's President Yudhoyono, should urge him to allow human rights investigators into Aceh and seek assurances that the armed forces stationed there will not interfere with the delivery of tsunami disaster relief.
In Colombia, women and girls are caught in the crossfire of the country's decades-long armed conflict. For example, last July more than 10 soldiers from the Fourth Brigade apparently gang-raped two girls aged 16 and 17. Some of the soldiers reportedly threatened the girls and their families after they reported the rape to the Attorney General.

In October, armed groups allegedly killed four women, one of whom was pregnant, after accusing the women of having relations with security force members. The Colombian government must do more to publicly condemn such violence, aggressively investigate its security forces, and bring perpetrators to justice. With the US providing approximately $600 million a year in security assistance to Colombia, the Bush Administration must speak out about violence against women by Colombia's armed actors and withhold its certification of Colombia's human rights practices until they improve.

The Administration must be resolute in pressing for an end to the killing of civilians by all parties to the conflict in Israel and the Occupied Territories. Palestinian armed groups have repeatedly and deliberately targeted Israeli civilians in suicide bombings, shootings and other attacks, killing some 1,000 Israelis, including 110 children, in the last four and a half years. The Israeli army and security services have killed unarmed Palestinians in repeated reckless shootings, shellings and air strikes, killing some 3,200 individuals, including more than 600 children. While Amnesty International commends Israels planned withdrawal of Israeli settlers from the Gaza Strip, the US government should press Israel to evacuate settlers from scores of other settlements throughout the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

The Darfur region of Sudan remains in crisis, with 1.9 million people forced from their homes. The world stands idly watching, as government-sponsored militias systematically target innocent civilians for ethnic cleansing. The state of emergency permits Sudanese authorities to detain people indefinitely without charge or trial, break up peaceful demonstrations, and violate human rights under the guise of counter-insurgency. Rape, kidnapping and attacks on civilians increased just last month.

We urge President Bush to make Darfur a top priority of US foreign policy. While we welcome the Presidents decision to send Deputy Secretary of State Robert Zoellick to Darfur, he would send a far stronger message by dispatching Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to the country without delay. We also call on the US government and the international community to provide support to the International Criminal Court in its investigation into the crimes committed in Darfur and to insist that all parties to the conflict cooperate with the Court.

Not all our findings are grim. Amnesty International, which has campaigned with local womens organizations to end violence against women in Turkey, is pleased that the new Turkish Penal Code removes many of the gender-discriminatory articles of past penal codes and that towns now must establish domestic violence shelters. But more remains to be done. Amnesty International calls on Turkish authorities to create guidelines for those shelters, fund them, and conduct domestic violence training for police.

Other positive developments include the growing debate on political change in the Middle East, the US Supreme Court ruling that granted detainees in Guantanamo Bay the right to challenge their detention in US courts, which provided a check on the Administrations overreaching, and a ruling by the British House of Lords that indefinite detention of foreign nationals suspected of being international terrorists violated their human rights.

Today, as we focus on the torture scandal, Amnesty International USA announces its new grassroots campaign, Denounce Torture: Stop It Now! Public opinion surveys have shown that Americans oppose the use of torture, and Amnesty International will work to turn that opposition into action. We will educate and mobilize tens of thousands of people around the country to take action to end torture and ill treatment and pressure the government to hold individuals accountable at all levels of the chain of command.

Mr. President, last year you said, Let me make very clear the position of my government and our country. We do not condone torture. I have never ordered torture. I will never order torture. The values of this country are such that torture is not a part of our soul and being.

President Bush, it is time to find out whether what you said is true and, if you did not order torture, then who did. It is time to prove that your words were not an artful cover-up of illegal actions. It is time to stop sheltering the apparent architects of torture policy, or else you will be known not for your promotion of democracy but for your perpetuation of demagoguery, not for your high mindedness but for your hypocrisy. Mr. President, tear down this wall of secrecy and silence! Thank you.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/annualreport/statement.html

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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #132
136. He isn't my president.
Edited on Tue Oct-11-05 07:58 AM by yibbehobba
Get your facts straight.

Edit: I'm done with this thread. I have no time for people who support murderous regimes, be they Cuban or American.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #136
138. More fact-straightening: If yr American, he IS yr president...
Sad but true fact. Trying to bury heads in sand when it comes to human rights abuses committed by the US, while on the other hand braying loudly about supposedly murderous regimes other than the US, does strike me as just a bit of a double-standard...

Violet...
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #124
137. Let me put you straight...
Green Left Weekly is NOT a communist group, which you'd have noticed if you'd taken the few seconds required to read about them.

http://www.greenleft.org.au/what.htm

Instead of knee-jerk attacks on a newspaper you know bugger all about, you'd be much more convincing if you dealt with reality when trying to criticise what was written...

Violet...
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #137
145. I wasn't referencing green left weekly in that post.
I was referencing the agitprop site, which is the website of the blah blah blah Communist Party of Australia.

The Green Left site was essentially saying that no climate of fear exists in Cuba WRT to dissidents. That wasn't what I was talking about. I was talking about the article on agitprop, accusing Amnesty of going very easy on the United States. My beef with that article has nothing to do with green left.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 06:04 AM
Response to Reply #102
112. If she "exiled" herself in the USA, she would be rich...
Certain people here would LOVE to trot out Che's daughter who'd "seen the light." Book deals, etc.

But she's still in Cuba.
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 06:25 AM
Response to Reply #112
114. Yeah, must be a nice gig...
...what with being able to jail people who don't agree with you and all.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #114
139. Isn't that what's happening now in the US?
n/t
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #139
144. Last time I checked...
...Denis Kucinich was still walking around a free man.

Unfortunately, nobody's seen fit to jail his hair for crimes against humanity.
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #144
187. Last time I checked..
Oswaldo Paya is still walking around a free man in Cuba - no matter his hair.
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 06:27 AM
Response to Reply #112
116. yeah, just think how many T-shirts she could sell
ironic no?? how good Che has been for the capitalism.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
156. More on how Bush's administration funds "dissidents" in Cuba.....
The State Department's 2003 review of the Cuba Program, set up to carry out the regime change directive in the Helms-Burton Act, notes that the Cuba Dissidence Task Group "was created to support the activities of dissident groups in Cuba," especially the Group of Four--the group led by Marta Beatriz Roque. The task group received a US$250,000 grant in 1999.

US$280,000 went to the Cuba Free Press between 1998 and 2000, for "giving voice to independent journalists and writers inside Cuba."

CubaNet, which operates out of Miami, posts the work of independent journalists on its Web site. Florida International University, another USAID grantee, works with CubaNet to translate articles written by dissident journalists into English, French, and German. CubaNet received US$343,000 up through 1997.

U.S. admits/denies it funds dissidents USAID official Adolfo Franco said earlier this year that the agency had spent US$20 million dollar carrying out Helms-Burton mandates since 1997. Nevertheless, another USAID official, Alfonso Aguilar, denied that the agency funded dissidents, though he claimed it was legal to do so. He admitted that USAID gives money to nongovernmental organizations that in turn pay dissidents. But he argued that Perez Roque's accusations were "outrageous," because the payments did not come directly from the U.S. government.
(snip)

Part of the case against Hector Palacios, a Varela Project supporter sentenced to a 25-year prison term, was that he had received US$3,000 in remittances from organizations in the United States as well as computers and other equipment donated by the Interests Section. Investigators found US$5,000 in cash hidden in a medicine bottle in his house. Another of the prominent writers arrested was Oscar Espinosa Chepe, who received a 20-year sentence. Interviewed on the Pacifica network's radio program Democracy Now (04/09/03), Miriam Leyva, Espinosa Chepe's wife, denied he had collaborated with the United States. She said he had only received US$15 per article from CubaNet in Miami. During the April 9 news conference, Foreign Minister Perez Roque displayed receipts indicating that Espinosa Chepe had received US$7,154 in such payments during 2002. At US$15 per article, Espinosa Chepe would have had to sell 477 articles or 10 every week that year. Perez Roque said that investigators found US$13,660 in Espinosa Chepe's closet and that he had not held a job in 10 years.

Dissidents were often paid with U.S. funds channeled through a Canadian bank. The bank allows Cubans to access U.S.-supplied funds with a Transcard (debit card).
(snip)

In an April 9 news conference, Foreign Minister Perez Roque gave Cuba's explanation for the arrests. "We have run out of patience with Mr. Cason and his irresponsible actions. He is the person most responsible for what has occurred."

That was the short explanation. In the exhaustive presentation that followed, Perez Roque made the case that the Bush administration had radically increased hostility toward Cuba to destabilize its government.
(snip/...)
http://www.counterpunch.org/sandels04262003.html
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #156
157. Here's one section of U.S. law which forbids this "dissident" action
between Americans and foreign governments:blockquote]U.S. Code as of: 01/06/03
Section 953. Private correspondence with foreign governments

Any citizen of the United States, wherever he may be, who,
without authority of the United States, directly or indirectly
commences or carries on any correspondence or intercourse with any
foreign government or any officer or agent thereof, with intent to
influence the measures or conduct of any foreign government or of
any officer or agent thereof, in relation to any disputes or
controversies with the United States, or to defeat the measures of
the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned
not more than three years, or both.
This section shall not abridge the right of a citizen to apply,
himself or his agent, to any foreign government or the agents
thereof for redress of any injury which he may have sustained from
such government or any of its agents or subjects.
(snip/)http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/casecode/uscodes/18/parts...

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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #157
165. the law forbids tampering with foreign government officials
are the "dissidents" members of Cuba's government?? or did I miss something. what does Castro think of "dissidents" in Cuba?
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #165
166. You need to read some of the earlier links dealing with "dissidents." n/t
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #165
169. Silly me. I didn't take the time to get the right one.
~snip~

.....AID records show that from 1996 to 2001, the agency provided $12
million to 22 groups to promote peaceful transition to democracy in Cuba.
And although Adolfo Franco, assistant administrator for the Agency for
International Development, who is in charge of the Latin American and
Caribbean bureau, denied Roques allegations, he did acknowledge that AID
finances programs to promote democracy in Cuba through various private
groups, including major organisations in Miami (read the Cuban American
National Foundation - CANF). Such activities would carry jail sentences for
treason in any country in the world, including the US.

No country in the world tolerates or labels domestic citizens paid by and
working for a foreign power to act for its imperial interests as
''dissidents''. This is especially true of the U.S. where under Title 18,
Section 951 of the U.S. Code, ''anyone who agrees to operate within the
United States subject to the direction or control of a foreign government or
official would be subjected to criminal prosecution and a 10 - year prison
sentence''.

(snip/...)
http://www.blackpoolandfyldecsc.org.uk/archive/ar196.ht...

That's what happens when you're working with a time problem. Sorry.
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #169
173. not sure what you are getting at
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec...

here is the US law but don't see how it applies to Cuba. Cuban Americans are allowed to remit money back to Cuba. As far as I know, the Cuban government isn't preventing this activity.

its quite convenient for them to claim that it is somehow "illegal" if the Cubans who receive US dollars happen to be Castro opponents and therefore committing treason. however, it doesn't surprise me one bit since organized opposition to Castro isn't permitted.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
163. Despite the energy/time/money spent on propaganda,most Americans
support normalizing relations with Cuba AS IT IS, rather than after an invasion and installation of another U.S. puppet:
Released: December 15, 2003
Majority of American Likely Voters Favors Ending Cuban Embargo, Foreign Policy Association/Zogby Poll Reveals


More than half (56%) of America's likely voters now favor re-opening trade with Cuba, while 12% oppose the idea, according to a recent Zogby International poll.

Polling was conducted September 5-9, 2003 for the Foreign Policy Association, with 1,000 likely voters chosen at random nationwide from listed residential phone numbers. The margin of survey error is +/- 3.2 percentage points. Margins are higher in sub-groups.

"The mission of the Foreign Policy Association is to promote citizen participation in the foreign policy process. It has never been more important to be educated about world affairs and to cast an intelligent vote," noted Noel V. Lateef, President of the Foreign Policy Association.

Support for ending the Cuban embargo does tend to turn more sharply on party affiliation, with 59% of Democrats and 66% of Independents saying the embargo should end, and 45% of Republicans agreeing.
(snip/...)

http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=770
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #163
192. Exactly.
Sure, there are plenty of problems with Cuba and Castro, but what can we say about it with our current leadership?
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 04:59 AM
Response to Original message
201. The embargo on Cuba should be concluded immediately:
~ snip ~
In its 2002 report, the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations condemned the embargo as "the main cause of malnutrition in Cuba." UNICEF, the United Nations Childrens Fund condemned the embargo. UNESCO, the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization, condemned the embargo, saying it "violates the rights of the Cuban people."

The United Nations Population Fund condemned the embargo for deterioration of Cuban standards of living. The World Health Organization condemned the embargo for its "very significant negative impact on the overall performance of the national economy" which "compromises the quality of life of the population, specifically the children, the elderly and the infirm." The embargo, it notes, forces Cuba to pay six times more than necessary for children to drink milk and shuts off supplies for medical screening tests.

Amnesty International condemned the embargo because it "helped undermine the enjoyment of key civil and political rights in Cuba by fuelling a climate in which the fundamental rights as freedom of association, expression and assembly are routinely denied." In other words, the US is actually creating the political and social conditions it claims it wants to end!

The Pope famous for his crusade against Communism - condemned the embargo, calling it "monstrously immoral." Former US President Jimmy Carter visited Cuba in 2002 and called for the embargo to be lifted. Former Soviet Premier Mikhail Gorbachev condemned the embargo in an editorial in the Washington Post, 2003, and called it the "last relic of the Cold War." In 1999 at the annual Ibero-American Summit, the leaders of Spain, Portugal and Latin American nations condemned the embargo. American businesses have condemned the embargo. Financial analysts warn the embargo costs American farmers upwards of $250 million a year in lost sales. But despite almost global condemnation, the embargo remains.

The American Association for World Health wrote in 1997, "Few other embargoes in recent history - including those targeting Iran, Libya, South Africa, Southern Rhodesia, Chile or Iraq - have included an outright ban on the sale of food. Few other embargoes have so restricted medical commerce as to deny the availability of life-saving medicines to ordinary citizens. Such an embargo appears to violate the most basic international charters and conventions governing human rights, including the United Nations charter, the charter of the Organization of American States, and the articles of the Geneva Convention governing the treatment of civilians during wartime." (emphasis added)

The US embargo against Cuba has described as "the longest and most severe set of trade sanctions ever imposed on any one nation" by international health organizations. Even many American bureaucrats, politicians and non-governmental organizations have condemned the embargo. Its maintained mostly to ensure campaigning politicians get lucrative handouts during election times from an embittered segment of the Cuban exile community (collectively known as the "Miami Mafia").(6)
(snip)
http://www.historyofnations.net/europe/poland.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The vote in the General Assembly at the U.N. should be coming this month. When it does, look for it to be another landslide AGAINST the U.S. embargo.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #201
206. Indeed.
The embargo is ridiculous and immoral.
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #206
207. Same goes for the US gov travel sanctions.
It is an abridgement of our constitutional rights. Plus, by allowing Cuban immigrants to travel to Cuba while denying Americans w/o direct family in Cuba is also an abridgement of equal protection.

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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #207
208. Yeah, that goes without saying, IMHO.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 09:58 AM
Response to Original message
210. The Captive Mind Now
http://slate.msn.com/id/2105821 /

A poorly titled piece, but well worth reading, especially for those not so familiar with Milosz.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #210
230. And then...
"Undoubtedly, one comes closer to the truth when one sees history as the expression of the class struggle rather than a series of private quarrels among kings and nobles. But precisely because such an analysis of history comes closer to the truth, it is more dangerous. It gives the illusion of full knowledge; it supplies answers to all questions, answers which merely run around in a circle repeating a few formulas."
-Czeslaw Milosz
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callady Donating Member (554 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 07:13 PM
Response to Original message
221. I'm looking for a photo of Che with a snake wrapped around his arm
An anaconda I believe. Use to see it on a website. Maybe someone here knows of this photo. i've looked and looked.

capitalism and it's mantra 'growth' are the operating principle of the cancer cell
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #221
222. Here's one with a large snake, but I'm not sure it's the one you want.....


http://www.el-comandante.com/buit15.htm


It's the only one I've seen, but then, I haven't seen nearly all the photos available, either.
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callady Donating Member (554 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #222
224. That's It
Thanks much. different than I remembered it.

keep up the good and tireless and often thankless task of educating those who have never strayed too far from the peg.


Fannie Lou Hamer
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 01:02 AM
Response to Original message
229. And then there's the real world.
"Under communism everything was forbidden -- political literature and the worst trash. But it was censorship. I don't believe in any 'third way': it's either freedom or no freedom. For those of us who lived through unfreedom, there is no choice."
-Ivan Klima
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