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cal04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 11:05 PM
Original message
U.S. Has Blueprint For Post-Castro Cuba
Edited on Sat Oct-01-05 11:09 PM by cal04
Fidel Castro looks like the 79-year-old he is, and the Bush administration has big ideas for Cuba once he departs. When that day comes, U.S. officials want to leave little to chance about the island nation's political fate. They are prepared to go to some lengths to ensure that the communist system Castro created goes out with him. It is official U.S. policy to undermine Cuba's planned succession from Castro to his brother Raul, 74. Just how that policy would unfold is not clear.

"We are looking to support a genuine transition to political freedom for the Cuban people," said Caleb McCarry, the State Department official recently put in charge of transition matters for Cuba. McCarry, a Republican who spent many years on Capitol Hill as an aide on Latin American issues, declined in an interview to address how the United States would carry out its Cuban policy.McCarry's appointment July 28, with Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice presiding, was one of few at the department made in front of television cameras.

It gave Rice a platform for denouncing communist rule in Cuba, a stance perceived as a political winner for years among constituencies in South Florida and elsewhere in the United States. The appointment of a "transition coordinator" for Cuba arose in a 2004 report to President Bush by the Commission for Assistance to a Free Cuba, led by then-Secretary of State Colin Powell. The report spells out steps to bring pressure on Castro and to provide assistance if a democratically inclined leadership takes power. Bush said upon the report's release: "We believe the people of Cuba should be free from tyranny. We believe the future of Cuba is a future of freedom."

The more than 400-page report discusses ways to modernize Cuba's aviation, railroad and maritime infrastructure.
It envisions U.S. assistance in holding free and fair elections, fighting corruption and establishing independent trade unions. Wayne Smith, a Cuba expert and former U.S. diplomat who long has advocated establishing normal U.S. relations with Cuba, said he is outraged by the administration's plan. It is "blatant intervention in the internal affairs of another state," Smith said. "They talk about how we are going to oversee and facilitate the transition. Who gives us that right?" Smith said.

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGBPU6PQAEE.html
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pinniped Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 11:06 PM
Response to Original message
1. * says no nation-building.
Castro will outlive the * crime family's reign of terror.
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Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-05 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #1
56. That's Okay. * Doesn't Build Nations, He Destroys Them
including the US of A.
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 11:08 PM
Response to Original message
2. Yes, America will decide how the little people of Cuba will live.
Like America is busy doing in Afghanistan and Iraq. LAFF.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 11:08 PM
Response to Original message
3. Same old bullshit. nt
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Yep - US has had a post-Castro plan for decades -
and, amazingly, they've not been able to put it into effect because Castro is still standing!

Viva Fidel!
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #3
16. Or bushit, as the case may be
Castro is no saint, but he does do education and health care better than anyone else--on a miniscule budget, to boot. And Cuba is full of smart, literate, inquisitive, industrious people--the next powerhouse in the hemisphere, should circumstances change.

I am in agreement with those who are astounded at the arrogance of monkeyboy, who decried the Clinton administration's "nation building." Hell, by comparison, Bill's team wasn't even caulking windows, never mind doing any building to speak of.
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #16
30. Ho hum..Castro this/ Castro that. FYI its the Cuban people who run Cuba!
If Cubans wanted Castro to be gone as Head of State, he would be gone. He's not the one who brought health care and ed to Cuba, Cuban doctors and educators do it. The people do it.

By constantly harping on and on about Castro this and Castro that you are just spouting the reichwingnut meme that the Cuban people are powerless or incapable of running their own affairs.

Cubans have formed a democratic parliamentary system of government with elections every five years. Terms include an acountability session every six months that includes a ratification or recall vote by the electorate.



http://www.poptel.org.uk/cuba-solidarity/democracy.htm
This system in Cuba is based upon universal adult suffrage for all those aged 16 and over. Nobody is excluded from voting, except convicted criminals or those who have left the country. Voter turnouts have usually been in the region of 95% of those eligible .

There are direct elections to municipal, provincial and national assemblies, the latter represent Cuba's parliament.

Electoral candidates are not chosen by small committees of political parties. No political party, including the Communist Party, is permitted to nominate or campaign for any given candidates.

You can read a short version of the Cuban system here,
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQDemocracy.h...

Or a long and detailed version here,
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/096850840...

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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #30
41. I beg your pardon?
I was not "harping on and on" about Castro at all. As the administrator of the nation, he executes the budget, and he does set priorities. And he is NOT a saint. That doesn't make him the devil, either, and I did not comment on his government or governance beyond that. However, that does not stop you from making assumptions about my views that apparently suit your mindset.

Spouting the reichwing meme??? Seems to me like you are looking for a fight. You clearly know nothing about me or my views towards Cuba. The bulk of my post was about Bush and nation building.

Way to encourage discussion, there, with two accusations right off the bat!!!
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. I stand corrected.
Apologies to you.

I really wasn't referring to you harping on and on, just the frequency of posters here on DU who attribute the good things (as well as the bad) to Castro as if he is THE government of Cuba. That is what I mean by 'ho hum, Castro this and Castro that'. It tends to bypass and/or ignore the vast majority of Cubans who partcipate en mass in their political system, their empowerment, and all that comes of it (good and bad). The Cuban people set the priorities via their elected representatives in their municipal, provincial and national assemblies, not Castro. He might voice these priorities but he does not create them.

I should have been clearer. My ho hum and reichwing spewing commentary was not directed specifically at you. Just in general at the frequency of that type of commentary here.

I do agree with you regarding monkeyboy's arrogance.

Sorry to be so abrasive, I'm just frustrated at the frequency of the Castro this and Castro that taint of the discussions about Cuba.

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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. No hay problema
Never worry, all is well between us. My back goes up when I feel that assumptions are made about my politics, that's all...
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Gnostic Donating Member (269 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-05 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #42
86. Funny
"The Cuban people set the priorities via their elected representatives in their municipal, provincial and national assemblies, not Castro."

And I suppose those "priorities", if not to Fidel's liking, would still fly?

And pigs do have wings?
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Gnostic Donating Member (269 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-05 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #30
79. Won't go that far
Castro is'nt all that, and anybody who ever seriously studied the history of that regime knows it. He and his family are virtual and lifelong dictators. And they have had not more than a few disastrous policies.

I only applaud Castro for the health care educational system he perpetuates, quite in contrast to the "it must suck to be you" attitude found towards the uninsured and poor in the United States. This American regime also has no right to intervene, politically or militarily, in that nation's affairs.

But let's not say that the Castro regime is anything even remotely near "democratically elected".
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-05 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #79
80. Oh please.
(((Yawn)))
Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that
this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that




Castro didn't do this, the Cuban people did.


After the 1959 revolution


It is in some sense almost an anti-model, according to Eric Swanson, the programme manager for the Banks Development Data Group, which compiled the WDI, a tome of almost 400 pages covering scores of economic, social, and environmental indicators.

Indeed, Cuba is living proof in many ways that the Banks dictum that economic growth is a pre-condition for improving the lives of the poor is over-stated, if not, downright wrong.

-

It has reduced its infant mortality rate from 11 per 1,000 births in 1990 to seven in 1999, which places it firmly in the ranks of the western industrialised nations. It now stands at six, according to Jo Ritzen, the Banks Vice President for Development Policy, who visited Cuba privately several months ago to see for himself.

By comparison, the infant mortality rate for Argentina stood at 18 in 1999;

Chiles was down to ten; and Costa Rica, at 12. For the entire Latin American and Caribbean region as a whole, the average was 30 in 1999.

Similarly, the mortality rate for children under the age of five in Cuba has fallen from 13 to eight per thousand over the decade. That figure is 50% lower than the rate in Chile, the Latin American country closest to Cubas achievement. For the region as a whole, the average was 38 in 1999.

Six for every 1,000 in infant mortality - the same level as Spain - is just unbelievable, according to Ritzen, a former education minister in the Netherlands. You observe it, and so you see that Cuba has done exceedingly well in the human development area.

Indeed, in Ritzens own field, the figures tell much the same story. Net primary enrolment for both girls and boys reached 100% in 1997, up from 92% in 1990. That was as high as most developed nations - higher even than the US rate and well above 80-90% rates achieved by the most advanced Latin American countries.

Even in education performance, Cubas is very much in tune with the developed world, and much higher than schools in, say, Argentina, Brazil, or Chile.

It is no wonder, in some ways. Public spending on education in Cuba amounts to about 6.7% of gross national income, twice the proportion in other Latin American and Caribbean countries and even Singapore.

There were 12 primary school pupils for every Cuban teacher in 1997, a ratio that ranked with Sweden, rather than any other developing country. The Latin American and East Asian average was twice as high at 25 to one.

The average youth (age 15-24) illiteracy rate in Latin America and the Caribbean stands at 7%. In Cuba, the rate is zero. In Latin America, where the average is 7%, only Uruguay approaches that achievement, with one percent youth illiteracy.

Cuba managed to reduce illiteracy from 40% to zero within ten years, said Ritzen. If Cuba shows that it is possible, it shifts the burden of proof to those who say its not possible.

Similarly, Cuba devoted 9.1% of its gross domestic product (GDP) during the 1990s to health care, roughly equivalent to Canadas rate. Its ratio of 5.3 doctors per 1,000 people was the highest in the world.

The question that these statistics pose, of course, is whether the Cuban experience can be replicated. The answer given here is probably not.

What does it, is the incredible dedication, according to Wayne Smith, who was head of the US Interests Section in Havana in the late 1970s and early 1980s and has travelled to the island many times since.




No one can say with any credibility that universal education and universal health care is forced on Cubans. Castro didn't give it to them. They worked hard to create the infrastructure and systems that they felt were essential for any progressive system.

Cubans wanted universal health care for all Cubans, and they have it. They pushed for government that represented their ideals, and organized and formed infrastructure that enabled Cubans to create a fair and complete h-c system. Cubans wanted universal education for all Cubans, and they have it. They pushed for government that represented their ideals, organized and formed infrastructure that enabled Cubans to create a complete and world class ed system, and they have it. Cubans want to assist the world's poor with doctors and educators, instead of gun ship diplomacy.. and that is what they have done WITH their government, not at odds with their government.

Can Americans make this claim about their own country? I'm afraid not.
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Gnostic Donating Member (269 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-05 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #80
81. Oh please is right
I did'nt and will not argue the benefits of the Cuban educational and health care system. It's excellent and should be a model for all nations interested in the welfare of their citizens.

What I was arguing was your premise that Castro is popularly elected, and that nonsense about reviews every 6 months. That guy could'nt care less if the Cuban people wanted him gone and you know it. He's extremely corrupt, and while the majority of his people live in abstract poverty due to his loss of funding from the Soviet Union (though he IS gaining ground with China and other SA states) he maintains one of the wealthiest personal capital portfolios on the planet. Why don't you go ask him, since he's such a great buddy, why he keeps those numbered accounts in Zurich, for instance?

Let's be at least somewhat realistic here please.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-05 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #81
82. Where would he have gotten this fortune?
Many of us have heard that story before. Yarns like that get floated continuously, going back all the way to Operation Mongoose, when U.S. psy-0ps people (1960's) tried everything they could imagine to deteriorate the image of Fidel Castro in the minds of the Cuban people, even creating the appearance of a photo in which Fidel Castro sat at a huge table laden with expensive food, sitting amidst sexy women. They made copies and tried to get the citizens to buy them, and no one went for it. They emphasized how he had been squirreling away lobsters while the Cubans ate gravel, and everyone saw it for what it was.

You'd be more effective if you posted some actual links to your assertions, rather than envisioning our taking your word for it. That's the way it's ususually done here. If you want someone to buy your claims, be sure to bring your links.

I'll start if off by posting an admission made by the CIA concerning Cuba, quoted in this article:
CIA: Most Cubans loyal to homeland
Agency believes various ties to island bind the majority
By Robert Windrem
NBC NEWS PRODUCER

NEW YORK, April 12 <2000> Cuban-American exile leaders and many Republicans in Congress believe that no Cuban, including Juan Miguel Gonzalez, could withstand the blandishments of a suburban American lifestyle, that he and all other Cubans would gladly trade their miserable lives in Cuba for the prosperity of the United States if only given the chance. Witness House Minority Leader Dick Armeys invitation to Gonzalez, offering him a tour of a local supermarket. But U.S. intelligence suggests otherwise.


THE CIA has long believed that while 1 million to 3 million Cubans would leave the island if they had the opportunity, the rest of the nations 11 million people would stay behind.

While an extraordinarily high number, there are still 8 million to 10 million Cubans happy to remain on the island.
(snip)

The CIA believes there are many reasons Cubans are content to remain in their homeland. Some dont want to be separated from home, family and friends. Some fear they would never be able to return, and still others just fear change in general. Officials also say there is a reservoir of loyalty to Fidel Castro and, as in the case of Juan Miguel Gonzalez, to the Communist Party.

U.S. officials say they no longer regard Cuba as a totalitarian state with aggressive policies toward its people, but instead an authoritarian state, where the public can operate within certain bounds just not push the envelope.

More important, Cuban media and Cuban culture long ago raised the banner of nationalism above that of Marxism. The intelligence community says the battle over Elian has presented Castro with a unique opportunity to enhance that nationalism.

There is no indication, U.S. officials say, of any nascent rebellion about to spill into the streets, no great outpouring of support for human rights activists in prison. In fact, there are fewer than 100 activists on the island and a support group of perhaps 1,000 more, according to U.S. officials.
(snip/...)
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ019.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


If this is what the CIA, the same organization which has tried repeatedly over the years to destroy this man, has to say about him, I don't think there's any reason I need to believe Miami idiot reactionary spew on the subject.
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Gnostic Donating Member (269 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-05 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #82
83. Do you actually believe
That Castro would willingly step aside if the Cuban people wished it as a majority?

I want what your smoking. Seriously.
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Gnostic Donating Member (269 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-05 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #82
85. No matter
Edited on Tue Oct-04-05 01:07 AM by Gnostic
I don't care how good entitlement programs in any country are, how well the people are looked after. I don't care about the supposed "good" a leader does for his country. A dictator is a dictator is a dictator no matter how you paint him.

Castro is certainly no saint. And to pick his own brother to succeed him is the height of blatant nepotism at it's worst. Do you think such nepotism would be tolerated by the people HERE? Or a lifelong dictatorship, no matter how beneficial (and the benefits of the Cuban regime certainly do not outweigh that).

Perhaps one could look at the old Soviet Union and find excuses for and good deeds Stalin did for that nation as well.

I really think some of you are SO far left you simply cannot even see things clearly for what they are when they appear to be "left" as well. Can we have some balance and common sense here please?
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-05 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #85
90. Cuba is not the old Soviet Union
There's not much point in reading or providing links or any actual reference material is there? All YOU need is a short loop..

a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator a dictator is a dictator



See how great that "argument" is? :crazy:
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-05 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #90
100. How did you do that - the scroll thingy?
I want some!
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Say_What Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-05 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #81
94. Cuba paid $380,000,000 CASH for food from the US in 2004
In 2001 Cuba ranked at the bottom of 226 agricultural export markets for US companies. Over the next few years that figure continued to move up and in 2004 Cuba ranked approximately 25th of 228. Because of the embargo and other 'strangle the Cuban economy' measures that the US continues to dream up, the Cuban government had to pay CASH for the food it received. Given the tremendous outlay of CASH, I wonder how Fidel manages to have the "one of the wealthiest personal capital portfolios on the planet". :rofl:

<clips>

(2) The total value of United States exports of agricultural products shipped to Cuba since 2000 when such sales were first authorized by Congress is approximately $1,000,000,000, including transportation, port fees, and insurance costs. In December 2001, Cuba purchased approximately $4,300,000 in food and agricultural products. In 2002, Cuba purchased approximately $138,600,000 in food and agricultural products. In 2003, Cuba purchased approximately $256,900,000 in food and agricultural products. In 2004, Cuba purchased approximately $380,000,000 in food and agricultural products. Cuba ranked at the bottom of 226 agricultural export markets for United States companies in 2001; ranked 50th of 226 in 2002; ranked 35th of 219 in 2003; and ranked approximately 25th of 228 in 2004. Cuba is therefore an important source of revenue for United States agriculture and its affiliated industries, such as manufacturers and distributors of value-added food products.

http://www.usaengage.org/legislative/2005/Craig%20Ag%20...



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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-05 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #94
95. There wasn't much left of the National Treasury in Cuba after Batista
relieved Cuba of it's funds before leaving the country.

You're right, CUBA HAS NO FUNDS. Why do the same people in Miami who spread these idiotic rumors about Castro controlling Cuba's wealth on one hand, and then claim Cuba is bankrupt and can't afford to pay its bills, in order to keep Congress from allowing Cuba to buy food on credit from U.S. farmers. Assholes can't have it both ways.

The reason Cuba has no money is because BATISTA STOLE IT. He emptied the National Treasury before leaving town and hiding in Spain for the rest of his life, living in opulence.
In 1957 twenty of Batista's henchmen had Swiss bank accounts worth millions. Opposition mounted, the army was unreliable and corruption was endemic.
(snip)
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3861/is_200...

(Also from the same source: Dictator Fulgencio Batista, overthrown by Castro, had jailed his opponents, and made fortunes for himself and his associates. With U.S. support, Batista had held power through manipulation, troops, and assassins, says Encyclopedia Britannica.)
When Batista fled, he took $40 million from the Cuban Treasury, following a pattern of U.S.-backed dictators for example, the Phillipines infamous Ferdinand and Imelda Marcos with their Swiss bank accounts and her infamous collection of thousands of shoes.

Miami exiles nostalgic for a Batista-style regime have a well-documented history of death threats, assaults, assassinations and bombings in Cuba and the United States. Cuban-American Estela Bravo, in her new documentary Free to Fly, shows assaults by anti-Castro Cubans in Miami, trying to prevent their fellow Cubans from travel, as well as bombings of homes and businesses and men shot to death in Miami, New York City and New Jersey for wanting to normalize relations between Cuba and the United States.
(snip/...)
http://www.pulsetc.com/article.php?sid=1179

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


It's easy to see the pattern here without getting more links to add to the bulk. Batista TOOK CUBA'S MONEY. That left them NONE. NO MONEY.

How do these clowns manage to lie with such determination? They're not going to fool anyone here.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-05 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #80
89. I'm amazed that you continue to try
to show them the truth. Viva Fidel and the Cuban people.
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-05 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #89
98. Why? I love Cuba. I love a great many Cubans in Cuba.
Pitching in my 2 cents on a message board isn't really too difficult a sacrifice for Cuba, for America.

:hi: :toast:
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-05 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #98
99. I know and so do I
Your two cents is very valuable.
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soleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 11:09 PM
Response to Original message
4. The US has a four hundred page blueprint of exactly what they want to do
It includes seizure of public housing, offering healthcare at a discount where it used to be free, funding private and religious schools and more.
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-05 04:41 AM
Response to Reply #4
50. Nice if we had as detailed a plan for Iraq
that one was one page, one word. ATTACK.
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 11:11 PM
Response to Original message
5. I hope the blueprint has all the loudmouths from CANF going back to Cuba
I am no Castro fan, not at all, but he is about as much of a threat to this country today as a can of baby food.
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. But wait
A can of babyfood is a threat to this country, if you are a republican.

You see, Bush lacks the ability to consume a can of babyfood unaided.
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Joebert Donating Member (726 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
6. I get the feeling that we have a file on every single country on Earth
Well, if Britain gets too uppity...

You know, they found oil under Belgium...

Our environmental practices have killed all of our trees, let's invade Brazil and take theirs...

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IA_Seth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-05 04:55 PM
Original message
Except Iraq maybe? n/t
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IA_Seth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-05 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #6
70. Except Iraq maybe? n/t
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 11:19 PM
Response to Original message
8. Have they, at last, no shame?
"It envisions U.S. assistance in holding free and fair elections"
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don954 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. lol! thats a real laugh! i wonder if a bush admin offical could say that
with a straight face..!
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #8
33. That's the BIGGEST JOKE
of ALL~ And needs to be common knowledge far and wide ..that the US NO LONGER has FAIR ELECTIONS.

Hell, we got Prez Jimmy Carter who did win in a fair election saying that Prez Al Gore really won the 2000 election when that fucktard was appointed by the slimey 5 on the supreme court.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #8
37. That's a good one!
Under the auspices of Ken Whatisname, Diebold, etc., of course.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #8
38. As long as they keep Americans from going to Cuba, and finding
out more about their government, it's easy to tell them any old damned thing, and the slow-witted among us will buy it without reservation. That's what they count on: unwavering, willful ignorance.

People who've been to Cuba after the revolution have far different stories to tell.

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Blaq Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 11:19 PM
Response to Original message
9. They've been mast*bating over this for years
They're still pretty much pissed about the Revolution. Cubans in Florida can't wait to return to Cuba so that they can bring back the gambling, prostitution, and poverty.

Cuba is NO threat. They don't build nuclear bombs, nor do they make those Satanic life-threatening diseases. Why bother them?
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MisterP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. Moustache Bolton said they make bioweapons--22% probably
still believe it
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buzzsaw_23 Donating Member (631 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 11:20 PM
Response to Original message
10. It's called CUFTA
CUban Free Trade Agreement modeled after NOFTA-New Orleans Free Trade Agreement modeled after NAFTA....

Meaning wholesale larceny, indentured servitude, ever-lasting debt and ecological wreckage for raw materials.

In return- Wal-Mart.

Where's Otto and Jeb?
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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 11:40 PM
Response to Original message
14. Who the HELL are WE to determine Cuba's form of government?
We don't rule the damn world.
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 11:43 PM
Response to Original message
15. The Plan begins with an invasion
Just because Castro is gone, doesn't mean Cubans will roll over for the U.S. military, though.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. the cuban army is really good
we will have to blow the shit out of cuba to capture the island, well that is something america is really good at aren`t we?
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. One hopes saner people will be in power by then
And that people will be fed up with war and invasion. But there will be strong forces pushing for war, no matter what.
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geomon666 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #15
46. Thank you.
The only way you can implement such a plan is to invade the island.
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freethought Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 11:48 PM
Response to Original message
17. They're looking for transition to freedom allright!!
Freedom of the market, that is! Pricks!
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 11:49 PM
Response to Original message
18. She shook her head at the irony:
"holding free and fair elections, fighting corruption and establishing independent trade unions."

How about starting right here, by returning to hand-counted paper ballots, kicking the crooks out of the administration, and repealing all those anti-labor laws and policies?
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #18
23. And repealing Taft-Hartley!
Condi Rice is a disgusting crypto-nazi creature that should be taken to the woods and disposed of like one would a rabid animal.
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LaPera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 12:13 AM
Response to Original message
21. Castro will be celebrating 50 years in power in a couple of years
Edited on Sun Oct-02-05 12:14 AM by LaPera
and I hope he has 50 more...fuck the right-wing!!!!
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #21
31. No he won't.
Before spouting the reichwingnut crap, do some homework.

Mr Castro did not become the leader of Cuba until 1976.

http://www.bartleby.com/65/do/Dorticos.html

Dortics Torrado, Osvaldo
191983, president of Cuba (195976). A prosperous lawyer, he participated in Fidel Castros revolutionary movement and was imprisoned (1958). He escaped and fled to Mexico, returning to Cuba after Castros triumph (1959). As minister of laws (1959) he helped to formulate Cuban policies. He was appointed president in 1959. Intelligent and competent, he wielded considerable influence. In 1976 the Cuban government was reorganized, and Castro assumed the title of president; Dortics was named a member of the council of state.

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tainowarrior Donating Member (425 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-05 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #31
63. c'mon people..
Yes, technically he was President, but we all know who was the leader. That's why we have the term "figurehead".

Dorticos was a figurehead for Castro, until he assumed technical power as President.
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-05 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #63
78. Not true
The Cuban people certainly would not have accepted a trade of one dictator for another - most especially in those volatile times. Mr Castro went to law school to complete his law degree after the '59 revolution, despite being interrupted to head-up the resistance and strategic planning against the US invasion at the Bay of Pigs.

If you really want to learn about the transition that took place in Cuba from 1959 onward read this book,

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/096850840...
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 12:16 AM
Response to Original message
22. These are the same fuckers that planned Iraq's post-invasion future
Disbanding the army, privatizing anything that wasn't nailed down. How many American troops will die just to find out that the Cubans in Cuba don't want to be occupied anymore than Iraqis do?

Cuban history is full of American interventionism that was resented by the Cuban people long before Fidel drove the US-backed dictator Batista from power.

No decent Cuban would want Bust to turn Cuba into another Iraq, and I won't support the troops if they invade Cuba.
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frozenfishdemon Donating Member (14 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. well hes not dying in Bush's term.
its different than with Iraq. most Cubans try to leave that little country, in hopes of coming to america....... and i have no problems with that. as long as they do it legally.

once Fidel dies america could support in Cuba rebuilding... no need for an invasion of american troops, just tools to make that country as strong as its cappable of being.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. I am sure the Cubans will embrace a US-style HMO instead of
Edited on Sun Oct-02-05 12:48 AM by IndianaGreen
the excellent and free health care they now get. I also assume that Cuba will be invaded by the Christian cockroaches with their Bibles and their hate-filled theology in tow trying to convert Cuba to their filthy religion just as they tried, but failed, to do in Iraq.

College education is free in Cuba. Do you want them to pay the exorbitant tuition we have to pay in America, or go deeply into debt in order to get a college degree? That's not progress!

What Gawd appointed America as the Great White Father of Latin America? Americans don't even run their own fucking country, for it is owned by Wall Street, how can we presume we can run someone else's?
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-05 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #25
57. Most Cubans do NOT try to leave the country.
Those that do come here are AUTOMATICALLY allowed in & given government assistance. Even if they don't go through the correct legal channels.

Cuba does not need REBUILDING. The rest of the world does business with Cuba; foreign investment is already at work there.

I hope that Cubans are strong enough to reject the USA's neoimperialism.



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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #25
101. Enjoy your stay.
Read up while you are here.
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cire4 Donating Member (580 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 12:24 AM
Response to Original message
24. Translation: American corporations will be coming in....
to exploit the island's resources and people. I guess Havana residents better get used to McDonalds, Hitlon Hotels, and Coca-cola vending machines.

And plan for democracy? Ha!...I predict another Haiti.
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 12:47 AM
Response to Original message
26. Castro isn't in power any longer. Alarcon, Raul Castro, and two others
run the government now.

Castro's public appearances have decreased since the late 80s.

Something like half the people who work for the government are in their 30s.

The impression that Richard Gott gives in his recent book on Cuban history is that the transition has already taken place and it's not likely that things will change significantly when Castro is gone.
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hadrons Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 06:42 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. and when F. Castro does kick the bucket ...
they'll be quiet about it at first and only release the news when they are ready, Fidel's replacement will be accepted by the people
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. You should read Richard Gott's book.
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #26
32. Thank you, 1932. Americans are in the dark about Cuba.
Probably because the US dictatorial government has fobidden and criminalized American's travel to Cuba, Cuba has done no such thing.
Most Americans seem too damned lazy to do some of their own realistic research regarding Cuba, but easily spew the reichwing barf.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
34. 
from The Independent & The Independent on Sunday
2 October 2005 10:07

Five years on, Elian says uncles held him against his will

By David Usborne in New York
Published: 01 October 2005

The little Cuban boy who was returned to his country in the waning days of the Clinton White House, after being found bobbing in the sea off Florida on an inner tube, has given his own judgement on the affair that inflamed tensions between Havana and Washington and may have helped George Bush win the 2000 election.

Elian Gonzalez was six when the ramshackle boat carrying him from Cuba to the Florida coast disintegrated and sank, killing his mother and 10 other Cubans. Five years later, in a television interview, he will say he was held in Miami by his great-uncle against his will.

His memories of the 149 days of legal wrangling over his fate are not so bad that he does not hope one day to return to Florida, he said, to revisit the assorted cousins, uncles and great-uncle who tried so hard to win custody. The stand-off ended when the then US attorney general, Janet Reno, ordered an armed raid on his great-uncle's house and deported Elian to Cuba, into the care of his father.

But in a CBS 60 Minutes current affairs programme, Elian will say his Miami relatives "told me bad things" about his father in Cuba. "They were also telling me to tell that I did not want to go back to Cuba and I always told them I wanted to."

A CBS spokesperson said the boy was interviewed in Cuba in early September and the Cuban authorities set no restrictions on what could be asked. Nor did any officials attend it.
(snip/...)

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article316...

Photo and story from DU'er Say_What:
Elian At 11

Sept. 29, 2005
11-year-old Elian Gonzalez at home in Cuba. (CBS)

(CBS) Elian Gonzalez is now a seventh-grader in Cuba who calls President Fidel Castro a friend and "father."

Elian shares his story in his own words, and talks about his life today, in an interview in Cuba with correspondent Bob Simon on 60 Minutes this Sunday, Oct. 2.

At the age of 11, Elian Gonzalez is a hero in Cuba after what happened to him when he was just 5 years old: His mother died at sea and he was rescued two miles off Florida. He was repatriated to Cuba only after a months-long tug of war between his Miami relatives and his father and the Cuban government.
(snip/...)

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/09/28/60minutes/mai...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Elin Gonzalez will be on "60 Minutes" tonight.
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Blaq Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-05 02:57 AM
Response to Reply #34
48. Cute little kid...
I saw him on 60 Mins Sunday night. He'll make a great leader some day. I hope the best for him.

Did you see his relatives in Miami did to their house??? It freaked me out. They've turned their home into an Elian Gonzalez museum with many shrines and junk. They even say he resembles Jesus. Those people need some serious counseling. If they weren't such freaks, they'd probably have a greater chance of reuniting with him some day.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-05 03:47 AM
Response to Reply #48
49. Yes, I saw it, too. He's a wonderful kid! Smart, mature, perceptive.
He has a bright future in Cuba, if he decides to pursue it there. He seems very much at ease, doesn't he?

As for that HOUSE where he lived: right after they converted it to a museum, they published photos of it, and news clips for tv stations. A DU poster, who lived in Miami, Bev _ _ _ _ _, was studying a photo of the living room back in 2000, when she was posting at another message board, and noted there was a little Halloween costume laid out, with a little plaque, "Elin's Halloween costume," and then it hit her: Elin wasn't even IN the States on any Halloween! He was rescued around THANKSGIVING, and rescued well before the next Halloween!

Now that's one for the books, isn't it?

Here's a photo of the 15-foot mural showing Elian, with the Pope and Bill Clinton on the sides of the photo, and dolphins swimming around who allegedly kept him safe (you remember the 2 fishermen who hauled him in, were out fishing for dolphin FISH that day, not the actual large dolphins, (someone got all confused about the story, obviously)) and his dead mother, some odd angels, and giant hands are also in the painting. After it was taken from the house, it was attached to a larger building in Miami for a while.





Here's a site which might give one something to ponder:
Religious Symbolism in the Elian Gonzalez Case

http://www.fiu.edu/~mizrachs/rel-symbols.html

and another site, Protests in Miami Following the
Elian Gonzalez Seizure

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/elian-protesters-2....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Who can forget the city-wide temper tantrum thrown after they learned Elin was gone! Unbelievable.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
35. deleted by Mr K MarxIII
Edited on Sun Oct-02-05 11:23 AM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
36. What utter wickedness!
I have a suspicion, certainly a hope, that the boot is likely to be on the other foot. Cubans may help Americans to set up some of the kind of social programmes they themselves enjoy, in the teeth of the criminal hostility of the American far right - perhaps lending doctors to a new national health service, for instance. Wouldn't that be mighty!
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
39. They've had the same plan in place since Castro took over,...
...all wrapped up in the same talk about freedom and democracy. If you want to see what these people mean by "freedom and democracy", take a good look at Afghanistan and Iraq.
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54anickel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
40. When I see US Repulbicans discussing independent trade unions
I get suspicious.

They are pushing the ILO (Independent Labor Organization), yet at the same time the Bush adminstration has proposed cutting the budget to this UN affiliated organization every year. (about 7 paragraphs down) http://www.iie.com/publications/newsreleases/newsreleas...

What was all that NED, AFL-CIO in Venezuela about anyway? This adminstration is getting way too uncomfortable with the Chavez movement out of fear it will spread thoughout developing nations.
Hands Off Venezuela protests the NED at AFL-CIO Convention
http://www.handsoffvenezuela.org/hov_afl-cio_convention...

So, just who and what interests are Cuba and Venuezla really threatening anyway?

Here's a link to the 458 pages of the plan for Cuba
http://www.state.gov/p/wha/rt/cuba/commission/2004/c122...
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. The AFL-CIO is still referred to as the AFL-CIA
Edited on Sun Oct-02-05 01:51 PM by IndianaGreen
The labor movement was gutted decades ago and what we have left today are unions run by reactionary elements and class collaborationists.
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54anickel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. Yes, it appears they are quite busy these days again too.
How United States Intervention Against Venezuela Works
CIA Electoral Interventions. Nicaragua as a Model for Venezuela


http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&...

snip>

The program of political intervention in Venezuela is one more of various in the world principally directed by the Department of State (DS), the Agency for International Development (AID), the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), and the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) along with its four associated foundations. These are the International Republican Institute (IRI) of the Republican Party; the National Democratic Institute (NDI) of the Democratic Party; the Center for International Private Enterprise (CIPE) of the US Chamber of Commerce; and the American Center for International Labor Solidarity (ACILS) of the American Federation of Labor-Congress of Industrial Organizations (AFL-CIO), the main US national union confederation. In addition, the program has the support of an international network of affiliated organizations.

The various organizations carry out their operations through AID officials at the U.S. Embassy in Caracas and through three private offices in Caracas under the Embassys control: the IRI (established in 2000), the NDI (2001), and a contractor of AID, a U.S. consulting firm called Development Alternatives, Inc. (DAI) (2002). These three offices develop operations with dozens of Venezuelan beneficiaries to which they contribute money originating from the State Department, AID, NED, and, although no proof is yet available, most probably the CIA. The operations of the first three are detailed extensively in hundreds of official documents acquired by U.S. journalist Jeremy Bigwood through demands under the Freedom of Information Act, a law that requires the declassification and release of government documents, although many are censured when released.

Venezuelan associates of the U.S. intervention programs participated in the unsuccessful coup against President Chavez in April 2002, in the petroleum lockout/strike of December 2002 to February 2003, and in the recall referendum of August 2004. Having failed in their three first attempts, the U.S. agencies mentioned above are currently planning and organizing for the Venezuelan national elections of 2005 and 2006. This analysis seeks to show how this program functions and the danger it represents.

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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. Excellent article. It's sad knowing they are hard at work on the next
elections in 2005 and 2006 in Venezuela already. We HAVE to pay for this, too, through our income taxes. We have no choice. What a goddamned shame.
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Gnostic Donating Member (269 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-05 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #44
87. Excellent comment
And dead on accurate
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powwowdancer Donating Member (125 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-05 07:30 AM
Response to Original message
51. we can only hope...
we can only hope that this one beats the ever-lovin' shit out of his "post saddam iraq" plan. I'm talkin' beatin' it like a rented mule. Who in their right mind would allow this total mentally deficient, morally bankrupt corporate whore plan anything after how he's totally F***ED UP in Iraq? Where's the flowers welcoming the "liberators?" What happened to "mission accomplished?" Hell, the only thing this organ-grinder's monkey has gotten right is "bring 'em on." Indeed. I'm going to put my money on Castro's "post bush america" plan as coming to pass first. How do you spell "sucker bet?"

Selah
:dem:
powwowdancer out
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tsuki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-05 07:46 AM
Response to Original message
52. Hey, maybe we can get the Cubans to come up here and assist
us in holding free and fair elections. I am sure they know more about that than the Conservatives.
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tainowarrior Donating Member (425 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-05 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #52
61. hey, I love Cuba
Edited on Mon Oct-03-05 01:17 PM by tainowarrior
but let's not forget they're a one-party state. Sure, they have intra-party elections, but would we be cool if our country's elections were literally GOP primaries and nothing else?

I'm a supporter of the Revolution, but not of the one party state, and not of Fidel's dictatorial tendencies. However, I agree with 70% of what the Revolution has done.
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tsuki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-05 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #61
65. And we are not, a one-party state? Hey, if it looks bad for the party,
have the voting machines close down because of 'humidity.'
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tainowarrior Donating Member (425 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-05 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #65
67. come on...seriously..
don't try to use the old Diebold defense to come to the aid of Cuba. Cuba's one party communist rule is not right. It's not defensible, no matter what other countries do.

Here in the U.S, we do have a crisis of legitimacy with the Diebold machines, and a crisis of two corporate parties and no legitimate party for the people. I agree. But, there is no legal barring of other parties. On that account, we're better. Give credit where it's due.

Like I said, I support the Revolution and I'd take side with it if it came down to it. But I don't like the one-party state, and there's stuff Fidel has done that I cannot support.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-05 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #67
71. Would you please be good enough to provide links to examples
of atrocities committed by Fidel Castro? There are a lot of DU'ers who are aware of Cuban history who could undoubtedly use some insights into what has been going on which we don't know about.

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tainowarrior Donating Member (425 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-05 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #71
73. are you kidding me?
Look, I'm the biggest pro-Cuban revolutionary you're gonna find...seriously. But, you got to be naive to think Fidel didn't execute thousands of dissidents and has done extra-legal things to stifle the dissident movement in Cuba.

Is the dissident movement financed by the U.S.? Sure it is. It gets help from the Miami people. Does that mean that all the complaints of dissidents have no legitimacy? Does that give Fidel a right to terrorize them through the Committees for the Defense of the Revolution?

Don't blanket support Fidel. That's not being a real progressive.

Here's a long list of articles, if you wish to research it, but Cuban violations of human rights are well-documented in regular human rights reports.

Let's not get so anti-Bush that we give free reign to a dictator like Fidel. I support the Revolution. I support a lot that Fidel has done, but at the end, he's an been a dictator for 40 years. That's not right, under no conception of democracy.
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-05 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #67
74. Seriously?
Only about 15-17 percent of the National Assembly are members of the communist party. To suggest that there are no other political parties in Cuba reveals the depth of your lack of knowledge and information about Cuba. (Can't really blame you for your lack of knowledge about Cuba if you are an America since the US dictatorial government has criminalized unfettered American travel to Cuba to prevent US citizens from seeing the truth about the island, its people, and their political machinations. What bothers me is that you come here to spout the same ol' line of disinformation about Cuba.)

The beauty of Cuba's democratic system is that NO party controls the slate of candidates. Anyone (with a popular platform) can be elected. Any member of any political party (except foreign funded abettors of enemy states of Cuba). There are no back room deals that form a slate or choose a candidate. The selection of candidates at all levels is done in open nomination sessions and elections.

I've been there during an election season and seen it & attended nomination sessions.


http://www.poptel.org.uk/cuba-solidarity/democracy.htm
This system in Cuba is based upon universal adult suffrage for all those aged 16 and over. Nobody is excluded from voting, except convicted criminals or those who have left the country. Voter turnouts have usually been in the region of 95% of those eligible .

There are direct elections to municipal, provincial and national assemblies, the latter represent Cuba's parliament.

Electoral candidates are not chosen by small committees of political parties. No political party, including the Communist Party, is permitted to nominate or campaign for any given candidates.



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democracy eh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-05 07:49 AM
Response to Original message
53. Given the US debt
and the elective wars of stupidity,

Cuba might want to make plans for how to influence a post Bush collapse USA



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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-05 09:24 AM
Response to Original message
54. I'll tell you what they are going to do...
It's gonig to revert back to the 1950's state before the revolution. Casinos and the mob.
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The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-05 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #54
59. Don't forget labor exploitation by the United Fruit Company
They were real sweethearts.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-05 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. Used almost all of the land growing bananas,coffee beans,sugar cane,
tobacco,to send outside the country, leaving almost NO LAND on which to grow crops needed by the Cuban people, and forcing them to import much of their food, which was fine for the wealthy, but cruel for the majority of Cubans.

All that stuff was non-essential. Cubans needed FOOD.

Terrible ordeal for the poor, forced to work seasonally, and live without employment the rest of the year.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-05 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #60
91. I'm reading a great book now called Gothem...
It's the history of Manhattan. In the early days, pre-revolutionary war, the English, were paying top dollar (or is that pound) for sugar cane and tobacco. The islands in the Caribbean were once self sufficient, but then, almost over night, the people in charge (wealthy English nobility) changed the Caribbeans economy to only sugar cane and tobacco production, as a result the islands were then forced to buy even the basic necessities to live. Food, clothing and any and all building materials, all things that they had once been able to produced to support themselves, had now been plowed under and the land turned into money making crops. Needless to say, this lead to many an island rebellion and it hasn't stopped since. The natives down there have a looooong memory and aren't easily to forgive.

It amazes me, the more things change, the more they stay the same. Just replace the names and the time and you have the same thing all over again.

colossal racist failure*.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-05 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #91
93. It's an ugly story: wealthier cultures using colonies as their pantries
or closets containing their rum and cigars, as in Cuba's case, while the citizens actually go hungry. You'd think the human race would have grown a conscience about these things by now, but it still persists.

Then they rage and name-call against the citizens who are desperate to get control over their OWN country, and out of the hands of foreign interests who have no interest in how hard life has really become for them.

What the Spanish did to the citizens of Latin America has been astonishing. What happened to the people living in this country when the Europeans arrived is unrelentingly barbaric. It continues into the present. The filth within certain people has not been refined away yet. Those guys seem to be the ones who go into right-wing politics!
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-05 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #54
75. Don't bet on that. The revolution continues.
Cubans won't go back to pre revolution ways. The vast majority of Cubans in Cuba now were born after the revolution and are well versed in the horrors of pre 1959 Cuba. If the US invades Cuba, the uprising and insurgency will make Iraq look like a cakewalk.

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RedCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-05 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
55. And here is our plan of action
We will force those heathens to send us doctors in the event of natural and unnatural disasters. Then we will supply them with color tvs and cars not made to last (post 1959) for agreeing to be forced to help us.
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yellowcanine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-05 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
58. I am sure that Cuba must have WMDs. In fact, I believe that I read
somewhere that Cuba had developed exploding cigars that could be used to assassinate foreign heads of state. Oh wait.....never mind.
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NoBushAndCo Donating Member (26 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-05 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
62. Send all the GOP brass to Cuba nt
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lakeguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-05 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
64. that's great, what about a blue-print for a post-bushco USA?
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-05 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
66. What the Hell?
I am so sick and tired of the U.S. nosing into every other country's business!!! This is just so behond out of control!!! The U.S. can't even take care of it's own people, but yet they want to go strongarm and pour billions upon billions of dollars into taking control of every other country on a whim! If this Admistration for once would focus inward instead of outward and be helpful to their own people the entire world would be a better, peaceful place but instead they want to strongarm and steal every other country's resources that they can get their hands on!!! What makes them think that their capitalist idea of a government is the right way??? Have they ever thought that others may not agree with them?
Who are they to always order other countries around and tell them what to do??? :rant:

This is just so depressing. ;(
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bunkerbuster1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-05 02:58 PM
Response to Original message
68. One side effect of Castro's death: FL turns blue.
not really on topic, but it was mentioned by in an Atlantic Monthly cover story awhile back--the residual loyalties a lot of Floridians of Cuban extraction might have for the Republicans (dating back to JFK's Bay of Pigs screwup) will vanish when the last reason for clinging to that loyalty is dead.

Not necesarily a huge number of votes, but FL's obviously a very tightly contested state anyway.

So I don't think the Reeps really want to see him kick off any time soon.

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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-05 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #68
76. I dunno.
charts from opensecrets.org


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bunkerbuster1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-05 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #76
88. If just a third of those supporting Reeps today
migrated to the Dems, that'd be significant.

But that said, I dunno for sure either. Just repeating a theory I'd read.

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classysassy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-05 04:51 PM
Response to Original message
69. A blue print(a man with a plan)
for the post Bush era.Gather up Bush,Chaney and the entire Bush cabinet,court appointed crooks,the FEMA fools,all republican govenors,all the former dixiecrat congresspersons(new rethugs),Mama and Poppy Bush,ship them off to the Hague.All of the old hags headed for the Hague,will travel by ship(garbage scow)Condi,Barbara,Karen,Sandra,Pickles,all aboard.
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Algorem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-05 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
72. Imprison the entire Bushgang in Guantanamo and give it to Cuba.
To hell with these devils.
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Gnostic Donating Member (269 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-05 11:08 PM
Response to Original message
77. Translation
"We are looking to support a genuine transition to political freedom for the Cuban people," said Caleb McCarry, the State Department official....


OK, translated this means, "We are looking to stage a bloodless coup (or even bloody, who cares right? We all want to get rid of that pesky Bay of Pigs cloud that still hangs over our heads) and effect a complete political take-over of the island so our corporate masters and mob bosses can rake it in like they did in the 50's again and build a bunch of new casinos and hotels for rich tourists so we can reap the mad profits from it all (including and lets not forget more cheap SA labor for our maquiladoras) and funnel it all back into our offshore tax haven accounts while the Cuban people lose their health benefits and other entitlements, and are made to work for US for very, very low wages!!"


I hope that translation for those of us who do not understand Neocon-speak helps.
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-05 12:46 AM
Response to Original message
84. Not if Castro and Hugo Chavez have their way.
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brainshrub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-05 09:22 AM
Response to Original message
92. Don't worry: Castro will never die.
Edited on Tue Oct-04-05 09:23 AM by brainshrub
The man is immortal. 300 years from now, he will still be in charge of Cuba.
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superconnected Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-05 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
96. So this is what Condosleeza has been up to.
Figuring out how to destroy Cuba, like Iraq and Afghanistan.

Does Cuba have oil? Money Laundering Business opportunity in their banks after we take them over? Cheap labor? Corportist and the Bush crime family must have found something there it wants.

Watch out cuba, we're going to come to liberape you.
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-05 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #96
97. Great term for Bushco's actions, superconnected - liberape
Liberape.

Gotta remember that one. :toast:
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