(Bill) Clinton lambastes Bush

[sabra]

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_1772595,00.html

Clinton lambastes Bush

Washington - Former US president Bill Clinton on Sunday sharply criticised George W Bush for the Iraq War and the handling of Hurricane Katrina and voiced alarm at the swelling US budget deficit.

Breaking with tradition under which US presidents mute criticisms of their successors, Clinton said the Bush administration had decided to invade Iraq "virtually alone and before UN inspections were completed, with no real urgency, no evidence there were weapons of mass destruction".

The Iraq war diverted US attention from the war on terrorism "and undermined the support that we might have had," Bush said in an interview with an ABC's "This Week" programme.

Clinton said there had been a "heroic but so far unsuccessful" effort to put together an constitution that would be universally supported in Iraq.

[90-percent]

1. WOW!

Wonder if this is going to erode his budding buddy-ship with GHWB?

In listening to Bill recently, he sure has to dance his way around all the GWB obvious fuck ups everybody in the world knows about, but the USA MSM are too under control to disclose.

It's gotta be a bitch when you know whats really going on, but can't allude to THE FACTS in any way shape or form due to some buddy system for the elites Bill has to conform to!

Guess Bill is taking a break from the COVER UPS?

-85%

[VPStoltz]

4. I often wonder if one a former president will spill his guts.

The nation would descend into anarchy if it knew the real facts.

[alarcojon]

63. This quote by William Blum comes to mind

"No matter how paranoid or conspiracy-minded you are, what the government is actually doing is worse than you imagine."

Big Dog has got to be thoroughly disgusted with what Bush has done to this country. I wish he would share a few realities with the American people.

[cwydro]

84. never heard that quote

but I believe it completely...

[Tight_rope]

153. I absolutely love that quote...will be keeping that in my memory bank!

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

92. Hell...an aide.

Anyone.

Bueller?

[StrafingMoose]

101. They would pay him a trip on Dealy Plaza right after he's done...

[Lochloosa]

66. I don't think it will affect his relationship with G the 1st. at all

I don't think G the 1st likes his son at all.

[alarcojon]

67. Who would have thought, after Bush I's reputation

for mangling the English language, that his son would come along and make Poppy look like Olivier by comparison?

I tend to agree that even Poppy looks at Sonny as a total fuck-up.

[Montauk6]

79. POPPY???? HE MADE DAN QUAYLE LOOK LIKE WILLIAM F. BUCKLEY!!!!

[goforit]

131. Well, GHWB is evidence that the seed doesn't fall far from the tree.

I wouldn't give poppy one ounce of credit except being the
best maffia style-criminal man the world has ever known.
And W it happens to every mob family.

This is a far most exclusive.

[madmark]

177. George the 1st, unlike Jr, was experienced and competent

(wwII fighter pilot in real combat, successful oil wildcatter, Member of House of Reps, United Nations Ambassador, CIA Director, and Vice Presidient), could execute effectively, and was actually fiscally responsible (his and Clinton's tax increases paved the way for the late 90's surplus'). George the 1st had a serious, professional career; JR is a total trust fund baby F**k up, and has f**cked up everything he has done in office.

[Kolesar]

2. Hilarious typo...or Freudian slip?

"The Iraq war diverted US attention from the war on terrorism "and undermined the support that we might have had," Bush said in an interview with an ABC's "This Week" programme. "

Clinton's interview on Me, Depressed was wonderful, too (Meet the Press with Tim Russert)

[patdem]

19. I just copied and was about to paste that...because I did not read the

responses yet.. AND I was going to BOLDEN just what you did! Then realized I had not read the responses..and when I saw your comment I KNEW you discovered it also! Too FUNNY!

[Tiggeroshii]

28. I WISH Bush said that....

in one way or the other, it would be admitting guilt.

[seeker4ever]

139. I saw that immediately...

Personally, I think they should fix it.

[confludemocrat]

3. This sounds different from the Clinton on Larry King lately sounding

completely pro-war without nuance, now facing his old ideological major domo Stephanopoulos, he does a 180, out of shame I guess for his idiotic echoing of Bush's "nobody could have guessed that the levees would break", and appearing with daddy Bush as he made excuses for his son for the Katrina fuckup. Maybe after he saw they weren't going to give an inch and vote for Hillary's independent commission on Katrina but stiff him no matter how he tried to cater to them.

[drummo]

44. Absolutely.

Clinton flip-flops in Iraq faster than I can follow. It's ridiculous. He has been on both sides of this issue over the last 2+ years.

[marshall]

141. it's good to be on both sides of the issue

At least then you're right half the time!

[joeunderdog]

164. Flip-Flop

Clinton looks more and more like a whore all the time.

Used to really like they guy.

[shanti]

115. "nobody could have guessed that the levees would break"

is that sort of like "nobody could have guessed that someone would fly an airplane into the wtc"?? :(

[still_one]

5. frankly who gives a damn what clinton thinks

he had his chance, and blew it. He was warned that the right wing thugs were out to get him, and NOT to screw around. Did he listen? No, he set the democrats up for where they are today

He can take his NAFTA and stick it up his ass for all I care

He is a has been who had a potential for greatness, and now is just someone who likes to socialize with the rich and famous

[rzemanfl]

10. No, she blew it, although that is a figure of speech. n/t

[Lindacooks]

16. Thank you Mr. President.

Can we have you back in the White House again? I miss having grownups in charge.

[Rosco T.]

112. This is why Big Dog has been cozying up to BushCo...

.. get inside, get liked, find where the bodies are buried

THEN OPEN FIRE!!!!!!!!!!!!

[bostonbabs]

158. I agree >Bush elevated him to a "respectable"

status, he put him on a level field with his own father.....I have always loved Clinton. His autobiography says it all....what an eye opener that was!....I could not put it down. He spells everything out in lay man's terms. I think Bill Clinton is a great man and a great president who has had the "attack machine of attack machines "after him from day one .They were always afraid of him and underestimated him as well. It was a mistake to put him in charge of the Tsunami relief along with Papa Bush ....they were EQUAL in the eyes of BUSH 2.....that was the message and AGAIN the same thing with Katrina......what he says NOW can't be disregarded so easily by "slime ball Rove"........Clinton ...."the comeback kid" "Patience IS power"

[Bleeding Blue]

191. Bill Clinton...

...was my favorite Republican President. He talks the talk, but you end up with welfare "reform", NAFTA, and national healthcare buried for at least 30 more years. Who gives a shit about what he says these days...but it is good to hear a President who can put two words together without sounding like Crawford's village idiot.

[raysr]

17. That's my take

on Clinton completely. Any argument with a puke and they run right back to Monica.

[mopinko]

29. so we let the thugs judge

OUR president for us?? what other things do you get advice about from thugs?

[still_one]

36. who cares what they think also

we have to stand for BASIC democratic principles

remember FDR?

[IndyOp]

38. We need everyone who can get TV time & tell truth --

because that pool of people is very, very, very small. And, yes, Bill needs to get a whole lot better at the truth-telling to become a permanent member of that group.

:kick:

[Olney Blue]

90. Jimmy Carter comes to mind...

remember his speech at the convention?

[Tomee450]

43. You are being too harsh.

Bill Clinton is not sitting around doing nothing. He has been working hard to help the aids victims around the world but especially in third world countries. I don't think he is a has been at all. Many world leaders continue to respect and listen to him.

[still_one]

72. Maybe, but you haven't seen anything yet

Roe V. Wade is over, it is now just a matter of time

Unions are history, and not only are jobs being lost, but we have lost the technological edge. Thank-you NAFTA

[bostonbabs]

159. agreed...n/t

[TwentyFive]

162. Thanks for sticking up for BigDog.

Unfortunately, a few others here play the smear game. Clinton did an amazing job for Democrats considering the political climate of the 90's.

[against all enemies]

68. It's Clinton's fault. Wow, now even Democrats are saying it.

It's Clinton's fault.
It's Clinton's fault.
It's Clinton's fault.
It's Clinton's fault.
It's Clinton's fault.
It's Clinton's fault.
It's Clinton's fault.
It's Clinton's fault.
It's Clinton's fault.
It's Clinton's fault.
It's Clinton's fault.
It's Clinton's fault.

There now everything is Clinton's fault.

[still_one]

73. Why do you think we lost 2000

It was partly the media being taken over, but like it or not, he allowed himself to be setup, and then he LIED under oath. Does that mean he did not do good things, of course not. In fact he did far more good than a lot of presidents, but that is the past, and that is why we need NEW ideas.

[Carolab]

116. We didn't lose 2000. GORE WON! DAMN IT! n/t

[still_one]

118. really? then why was the turnout so dismal?

People can say the supreme court decided it, and it wasn't fair, but that doesn't cut with reality

The supreme court ruled as they did because Gore DID NOT ASK FOR A RECOUNT of the ENTIRE STATE OF FLORIDA, instead he selectively picked, and then it was too late

Read the decision by the court

But, it didn't stop there. The democrats in Congress had a choice to fight it. All they needed was one senator with courage, but they were no where to be found.

Unless we start running people like Paul Hackett, Russ Feingold, Barbara Boxer, and others, who aren't afraid of bad press we will continue to live in the world of shoulda, coulda, etc

[Carolab]

119. The TWO independent media consortium studies proved it.

If the entire state had been counted, as was originally RULED and before the Repubs stopped the count, GORE WON.

[still_one]

120. why was the turnout so bad? Both in 2000 and 2004?

weren't the issues important enough?

Yes, but the wonderful advisors to gore didn't request a count of the entire state.

There are more democrats registered than repukes, and if they had turned out in numbers, even with nader, there is no way the election would have been lost

The fact is that the only way people will appreciate what the democrats did in the last 50 years, is when they lose it.

I hate to be so bleak, but do you even hear anyone in congress doing something about the voting mechanism?

In fact, when is the last time the democratic leadership proposed something? Where was the democratic energy plan, or a plan that everyone is entitled to medical care.

It doesn't matter that they are the minority party, in fact in 2000, we still could have done something.

[shrike]

144. Turnouts have been bad since I was a kid

Believe the turnout for Dewey vs. Truman was 50 percent or less.

Americans have a bad habit of not voting -- anytime. Clinton has nothing to do with that.

[still_one]

148. we deserve the government we have

the reason that "turnouts" have always been bad doesn't cut it. Perhaps Clinton had nothing to do with the turnout, but in my view it didn't help

[shrike]

156. Oh, I agree with you there

But you have to look at it in the historical context: Americans find any number of excuses not to vote. And yes, we do get the government we deserve because of it.

[Carolab]

184. We had record turnout in 2004 and still * "won".

No, he DID NOT.

[PinkyisBlue]

190. Important Issues

All the issues you raise above are important, and all have been addressed by Democrats. Clinton and Hillary attempted to present a plan on national healthcare during Clinton's presidency, but with the Republican majority in the Senate and House, it didn't get very far. Hillary recently wrote legislation dealing with voting fraud issues, and again, it didn't go anywhere with the Republican controlled House and Senate. Carter has proposed some changes in the way we vote (see separate topic); let's see how far this gets in this political climate. Gore is very environmentally aware, and I'm sure he had an energy plan during his presidential bid.

You may be right that the only way people will appreciate what Democrats did in the last 50 years is when they lose it. When people work in unsafe jobs without proper protection, when the meat they eat is contaminated due to lack of inspections, when the great forests and vast national parks are gone due to over logging and mismanagement, when higher education at public or private colleges is unavailable to many students due to high tuition and no financial aid or federal loans/grants, etc.

[Inland]

147. Nader. nt

[DURHAM D]

167. "He lied under oath" - even his enemies say

he "may have lied under oath". Please list the lie(s).

[CAcyclist]

174. He Lied Under Oath - So Frigging What?

About something that isn't even a crime? That's fucking bullshit.

Worrying about trivial things like this and allowing the RW media to form your opinion for you is why we are stuck in the Bush quagmire.

[Nightwing]

192. Right on!!

These supposed Dems that go off on Clinton make me want to puke. I too am sick of this ridiculous thinking and agree that "He lied under oath" is complete bullshit.

Who here really thinks we're better off with * than Clinton??

[LZ1234]

180. Actually I blame Linda Tripp

[cwydro]

87. thank you

:sarcasm:

[howmad1]

113. Actually, if bubba would have kept his dick in his pants,

Al Gore would have been president. So, all that has happened under bushs' administration is in reality, Clinton's fault.

[still_one]

121. I am not sure if that is entirely ture

but, it sure didn't help, and if anything, it kept people from going to the polls

[QC]

134. I guess Katherine Harris and Jeb had nothing to do with it.

Sure. Whatever.

[Bridget Burke]

137. If Bush Jr had been examined in detail....

(Actually, he never would have gotten nominated for President... AWOL, insider trading, coke...)

If there were millionaires trying to bring him down now, they could. But most of them like the tax cuts fine.

Bush is his own fault. Plus the fault of his handlers. Plus anybody who voted for him. Plus the Supreme Court who put Bush in office. Plus the media, who loved him unreservedly--until now.

[LZ1234]

181. See response #180

[DemCam]

77. I, do, for one...

It's especially nice to listen to someone who can think. Big difference from what we've gotten used to.

[cwydro]

85. Disagree respectfully

Gore blew it.

[Miss Chybil]

95. I do. nt

[Placebo]

117. Me.

[bostonbabs]

163. look at the work

he did in Africa on AIDS ...he embarrassed the White House so that they had to step in with a plan of their own....look at Clinton and DAVOS.....very important....the rich and famous are world leaders! He has credibility around the world. Others unlike many of us realize he was crucified for an act that was between his wife and himself...they laugh at America but not at Bill Clinton......look at G8 and Blair.....why did Bush go to him to raise Money? because he could and did.....he is not a "has been" ....please.....it has been said that everyone who goes to the UN goes to Clinton as well. Nafta was an eventuality. my husband worked with Packwood on a senate panel....it had to happen if we were going to be world players in economics and that is what DAVOS is about ...bottom line.... economics....and Bill does not feed at the trough and the WORLD KNOWS THAT.....he is not about money ....he is about ideas that work for the majority..........

[PinkyisBlue]

188. I agree

I get so tired of these so-called Democrats knocking Clinton. He was the first president who really inspired me and got me interested in politics. The more the right wingnuts went after him about Monica, the more I supported him. Here was a president who was LEGALLY elected TWICE by the American people, and the neocons tried to disregard the wishes of the people and have him impeached for a triviality.

In retrospect, now I can see why they wanted him out. He was smart, fiscally responsible, respected by leaders in other countries, helpful to the poor and middle class, etc. He was the total opposite of "W". We would never be in the mess we're in now if he were the President. Of course, the nutjobs in power don't see what is happening today as a mess at all. When success is measured by money alone, the way they measure it, they are very successful indeed. They have almost succeeded in their efforts to bankrupt the federal govt. and to transfer the wealth from the middle class to the very wealthy; some items left on their agenda include Social Security privatization, permanent repeal of the estate tax, maybe a new value-added or flat tax in place of the (somewhat) progressive income tax we have now?

Someone on this thread asked when was the last time national health-care was discussed by a Democrat? Well, the last time it was discussed was during Clinton's presidency, when Hillary attempted to introduce healthcare reform to the American people; too bad it wasn't taken more seriously then. Clinton raised the minimum wage (twice, I believe). He raised taxes on the wealthy to enable more equitable distribution of the wealth. And he did it with integrity and honor. If Gore had allowed Clinton to play a larger role in his bid for the presidency, I believe many more people would have been voted for him and it would have been much more difficult for Bush to steal the presidency.

Well, those are my thoughts.

[waiting for hope]

194. Can we make Clinton King?

or even Emperor? Bush has already set up precedence for a dictatorship.....

[hwmnbn]

6. Yep he also said much the same...

to Tim Russert. Pretty much simplified the issues so where even freepers could understand.

We are borrowing money from poorer nations to fund Iraq, Katrina, tax cuts. Our credit card is maxed out, and they can cut us off.

Big dog also highlighted the difference between FEMA under his administration and now under the bubble-monkey.

The wonderful way he expresses himself, in concise sentences, he gets in subtle as well as direct shots at the chimp.

[Lasher]

7. It's about time!

Clinton can make a difference if he keeps standing up for America like this.

[mazzarro]

13. One wonders what has become of his relationship with the DLC?

Since his is the democratic presidency that the DLC likes to drag out to show how great the DLC is, I will like to know if Clinton cleared his thought with the DLC? I will also like to know if the relationship he has recently built with Bush*1 has deteriorated? I am somehow suspicious that Clinton is trying to buy favors for Hillary from the anti-war/anti-bush* segment of the voting public.

[Lasher]

20. Or maybe he decided he likes being invited to events...

like the Pope's funeral. Notice how Carter got snubbed on that one, and Condi got invited instead?

And maybe now he has realized that the Bush cartel just wants to use him as a chump. In that case, Clinton would certainly have decided to do battle with them, as he is no chump.

Whatever, this is a good sign. I was starting to wonder if Clinton had been sleeping with the enemy.

[Rose Siding]

8. This ABC link has the transcript. Good stuff!

http://abcnews.go.com/ThisWeek/HurricaneKatrina/story?id=1136801&page=1&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312

snips>

CLINTON: .....I think this idea— I think it's very important that Americans understand, you know, tax cuts are always popular, but about half of these tax cuts since 2001 have gone to people in my income group, the top 1 percent. I've gotten four tax cuts.

They're responsible for this big structural deficit, and they're not going away, the deficits aren't. Now, what Americans need to understand is that that means every single day of the year, our government goes into the market and borrows money from other countries to finance Iraq, Afghanistan, Katrina, and our tax cuts. We have never done this before. Never in the history of our republic have we ever financed a conflict, military conflict, by borrowing money from somewhere else.

STEPHANOPOULOS: The president is not going to move. What do Democrats do?

CLINTON: They should continue to oppose it, and they should make it an issue in the 2006 election, and they should make it an issue in the 2008 election. And they should hope, to goodness, for the sake of our country, that the cows don't come home before we have time to rectify it.

I mean, sooner or later, just think what would happen if the Chinese— We're pressing the Chinese now, a country not nearly rich as America per capita, to keep loaning us money with low interest to cover my tax cut, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Katrina and at the same time to raise the value of their currency so their imports into our country will become more expensive, and our exports to them will become less expensive. And by the way, we don't want to let them buy any oil companies or anything like that.

[BeFree]

12. Hey Freepers!

Give Bill another Tax Cut! You gave him four, he needs one more!
:sarcasm:

And while you're at it, bow to the Chinese who are giving you the welfare you so desire.

[MelissaB]

22. Freepers are enabling welfare!

They give our boy Bill tax cuts, and the Chinese are supporting us.

:rofl: This should be posted everywhere.

[KoKo]

14. Thanks for the transcript! n/t

[SillyGoose]

15. Really good stuff in there. I wish I had seen it. n/t

[tularetom]

160. Not only did Clinton get four tax cuts

but so did Michael Moore, Barbara Streisand, George Clooney, Chris Rock, Dan Rather and whole bunch of other rich hollywood "liberals". Wonder how much of their $300 cut those guys listening to pig boy in their mom's basement have left? I'll bet Streisand is really enjoying her millions guys.

[AzDar]

9. What took him so long? Made me wonder if Poppy had incriminating

photos or something..LOL

[sandnsea]

11. Oh I don't fucking think so

Fuck you Bill, we needed you to say this two years ago and instead you and finger in the air Hillary danced around and left the entire party twisting in the wind. What happened to "I like both these guys". Don't start the Bush bashing now, oh hell no.

:grr:

[maddezmom]

37. so would you rather he remain silent?

anyone who bashes bush is okay in my book.:shrug:

[sandnsea]

51. If they're going to wuss out next week

Yes. Just shut up. They don't help anything when they, and it is THEY, don't take a clear position and stick to it. Hillary supported the invasion for the purpose of overthrowing Saddam, Bill did too. Don't come around now talking about letting the inspections continue when they didn't say a fucking word about it two years ago, and in fact, undermined anybody who did. It's all politics for them and it always has been.

[baby_mouse]

195. Kind of agree, sadly

Caving in next week is likely and will bolster the opposition.

[cwydro]

88. yes..

I don't care how late it is...I never understood this in bed with the Bushes thing...still don't...but as they say....politics make for strange bedfellows....let him talk...I am glad about anything the man might say...ESPECIALLY against BUSHWORLD

[Pepperbelly]

46. I think your position is childish ...

sorry, but the end result of your position is that no matter what someone does, if they didn't do it according to your timetable, they are your enemy. That is egotistical, self-aggrandizing bullshit.

Instead of being glad to have a powerful ally, you kick dirt in his face. You may believe that is the way to political domination but you are wrong. It is a way to the political grave.

[sandnsea]

54. See #51

If they both admit they were wrong to support Bush's invasion for the purpose of overthrowing Saddam and they were wrong not to speak out about ANY of the lies and they were wrong to push the WMD hysteria instead of inspections; then fine. But they aren't. Political maneuvering for Hillary in 2008, that's all it is. Sick of these two, sick to death of them.

[Pepperbelly]

56. and as a member of ...

the center, I am sickened by attitudes on both sides of the divide. Absolutely sickened.

[sandnsea]

57. Bill and Hill aren't the center

They're political opportunists out for themselves and will say anything if it means a vote or a contribution. In fact, I'm beginning to think he's as antisocial as Bush, just better at faking care and concern is all.

[Pepperbelly]

59. your opinion is ...

noted. Doesn't make it fact, of course, but noted.

[QC]

136. "egotistical, self-aggrandizing bullshit"

Sounds like a good summary of most of what has been posted in this thread.

[Tight_rope]

155. You ever heard the saying never judge because you don't know

what's going on behind closed doors. I'm sure Clinton had his reasons for not saying anything in the past. Maybe he was waiting for the Bush to fall to his lowest before kicking him...that away he can't get back up (of course this is after not just democrats but also most republicans are sick of his shit). Personally, I think it was a smart move. Now he just needs to keep kicking. Never let them get up.:kick:

[Gloria]

18. This guy is all over the place. I am having some very bad thoughts....

I've just been mulling over the Global Initiative as a possible undercutting of the UN. I've been looking at Tom Galisano, prime underwriter, who endorsed Bloomberg and was mentioned again as a recruit to run against Spitzer. I wonder about the bashing of the BBC with Murdoch and Blair isn't about Katrina but is more about the current huge series on "Who Runs Your World?" which is basically about globalism??

I wonder why Bill hasn't adopted a DOMESTIC agenda, like election reform and the disenfranchisement of black voters?? I wonder why in 2004 Hillary glommed on a call for election reform by Rush Holt--a TRUE reformer--and why I haven't heard a peep since?

Sometimes I wonder--If Hillary runs, whenever she runs--I wonder if she will win because Billary is so now in bed with the TPTB and that they would be willing to FIX an election??

Actions speak louder than words. Occasional criticism for our consumption, to keep us in the fold versus ACTIONS and the company they keep....

Just wondering...

[hippiechick]

25. Same here, Gloria ...

Bill and Hill are up to something, and I'm afraid to figure out what.
First he's playing all kissy smoochy with Poppy, and now this ?

:evilfrown:

[MADem]

41. Maybe he is leaving that to the next President Clinton

The elections always center on domestic policy--bread and butter issues. No sense stepping on the next President's lines.

[Autonomy]

21. Leave it to Clinton

to do the right thing at the right time. Damn him! He makes hating him so irrational! x(

[Ratty]

23. Could you imagine Bush discussing any topic intelligently like this?

Conservative topics, right wing, whatever. Could anyone ever imagine Bush sitting down and discussing *anything* intelligently? I don't think he'd be capable of it even if everything were prescripted, rehearsed and endlessly coached. Do conservatives know he's a moron? Do they simply not care, or even consider it an advantage? For anyone who has never seen this before, it's the most hilarious Onion article ever ever written. You have to read it NOW:

Bush Regales Dinner Guests With Impromptu Oratory On Virgil's Minor Works

I don't get you people who seem to revile Clinton. He made mistakes. The huge right wing war machine jumped on that and did a lot of damage with it. Personally I was disappointed in his final presidential pardons. He's no saint or god, but come on, some of your comments are ludicrously out of proportion.

[Barkley]

24. Take away W's $ and last name and have him start life where Bill did

and Georgie would never become President.

Its obvious that Bush is not qualified to run the country.

He needs to resign or be impeached.

Under Bush we've lost:

Two World Trade Centers
2 Million manufacturing jobs
Allies
Budget Surplus
a good chunck of the Pentagon
A Space Shuttle
The City of New Orleans

and you can bet that if a Democrat had made this many
'mistakes' Richard Nixon and Reagan would come up from
the grave to make a criticism.


Why people keep supporting him is beyond belief.

[Peace Patriot]

97. Stunning list, Barkley! Good way to lay it out.

I was thinking about some amendments...

Under Bush we've lost:


Two World Trade Centers (2,000+ people killed).

2 Million manufacturing jobs (and slaveshop conditions abroad and sabotage of workers' rights at home).

Most of our allies.

Big budget surplus (turned into trillion+ dollar deficit).

A good chunk of the Pentagon (more people dead).

A Space Shuttle (yet more people dead).

The City of New Orleans (thousands dead).

The potential good will of the Iraqi people (over 100,000 slaughtered).

The potential good will of the Muslim world (over 100,000 slaughtered, and thousands bullied, humiliated, detained and tortured).

Our reputation as an "honest" broker in the Israeli/Palestinian and other conflicts.

Several thousand U.S. soldiers who needn't have died, and many thousands more who needn't have suffered permanent disability.

Our reputation as a law-abiding country, a founder of the United Nations, and a well-meaning, generous people.

Our faith in ourselves, as a creative, ingenious, "can do" country, where a free education for all, and a progressive tradition of tolerance, fairness, and equal opportunity will bring out the best in everyone.

Our faith in our own democracy (after three stolen elections '00, '02 and '04).

Our faith in the "checks and balances" of the U.S. Constitution.

Our civil rights.

Our hopes and dreams for a just and peaceful world.

And even our humanity, as the poor and the black of New Orleans were left to rot and die, while the fatcats who run our government, and represent us to the world, licked their chops over yet another major looting opportunity.

--------

Of all of these--aside from the deaths and injuries--the worst blows have been the assaults on our faith in ourselves and our common ground in this once great democracy, and our hopes and dreams for a better world.

As we survey all that we have lost, perhaps we will be able to pull together once again, and recover, and perhaps even become a better country, and a better people, in the end. I have not lost that hope, despite all their efforts to defeat it. My love for this country, and my belief in our democratic ideals, still burn in my soul. They are not extinguishable.

[Mad_Dem_X]

130. Thank you!

Clinton was qualified to be president. Plus, he came from nothing and worked hard to get where he is. W is just a spoiled rich boy who ruins everything he has a hand in.

[xchrom]

26. rehabilitating his image with the people.

[Pepperbelly]

47. why would he

give a drizzly shit what loudmouths on an internet forum say?

I doubt he even knows this little community exists.

[Tiggeroshii]

27. that is impressive.

Maybe he's gonna run for Governor like that SFGate story supposed, Or will the amendment be changed extending term limits or something along those lines?Maybe Senator? This is cadidate speak! Bet the Bush's didn't expect that from a seemingly fellow Bush.

[Up2Late]

30. Was this a mistake by the writer, or was GHWBush with him?

"...The Iraq war diverted US attention from the war on terrorism "and undermined the support that we might have had," Bush said in an interview with an ABC's "This Week" programme...."

Did the writer mean to say "Bush said" or did he mean Clinton Said?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

31. NOW he comes out with this?

NOW?

Now, when Fuckface's popularity is taking a nose-dive and the majority of the American people are saying the "war" in Iraq is a clusterfuck?

Now, Big Dog chooses to speak his mind?

Fuck him. He's nothing but a blatant opportunist who no longer wants his name associated with Fuckface now that he's heading for the toilet.

Fuck him. He should have been saying things like this a few years ago.

[Charlie Brown]

32. He & Hil have been ardent supporters of the war and Bush policy from day 1

They both had no problem going into Iraq without UN and Intel support in March '03, and have been beating the war drum for 2 1/2 years since. Even when Kerry began calling for a greater International role in Iraq they remained firmly behind Bush.

If he's changing stripes now, he needs to admit the mistake of supporting the war from the beginning. If he now is an advocate for greater International role in Iraq, he should apologize to Kerry as well for remaining behind Bush. He should also apologize for the bombings in '98.

I'm really disgusted by the Clintons.

[IndyJones]

39. I'm glad people are saying this because I thought this, too.

Seems mightily opportunist of him to be so boldly speaking out just now.

[Bridget Burke]

135. Now that he's criticizing Bush....

All of Bush's fans are coming out against Clinton....

[confludemocrat]

110. He may not be changing stripes but parsing his words a la Kerry on the war

who of course learned it at the foot of the master, Clinton. I think he has caught some flack for his soft positions on everything concerned with Bush of late. And he's pissed that the Repugnants were so dismissive of Hillary's Commission thing (she should have called for a Special Prosecutor).

[AX10]

33. So now Clinton is anti-Iraq war?

:eyes:

[Charlie Brown]

34. He has to cover his a$$ for the bombing he ordered in '98

What a tool.

[Captain Hilts]

70. Why does he have to "cover his ass" for 1998? (nt)

[Charlie Brown]

80. 'cause it was a mistake

and he'll be exposed as a hypocrite if he doesn't support the current war

[robbedvoter]

49. He did speak odf it's uselessness early on. Then joined the chorus.

But I do remember when he said at a CFR event that to say Saddam was a threat was kinda ridiculous.

[Historic NY]

35. Well, its about time.............

Bill wasn't as harsh as he could have been, but it is clear he showed there are some very big differences in how this administration operates.

[MADem]

40. What a BULLSHIT HEADLINE

He did not 'lambaste' him, he gave a reasoned, thoughtful and completely HONEST assessment of the performance of the monkey. It was not SHARP CRITICISM, it was a measured restatement of existing FACTS. I saw the goddamn interview, and it was forthright, honest, but didn't say a single thing we do not already know to be the absolute TRUTH.

Jesus, the fucking media loves to make everything a Hatfield-McCoy moment. Anything less than a kiss to the chimp's asshole is viewed as an attack. Facts are facts, Bush fucked up the war, he fucked up NOLA, he is a fucked up pResident--a miserable goddamn FAILURE.

You can't paint that fart green and call it new mown hay...

[robbedvoter]

76. Another whine: "Clinton launches withering attack on Bush on Iraq, Katrina

How dares he touch THEIR boy?

[MADem]

106. Corporate media Acts of Desperation, I guess

They have to hide the truth behind headlines of lies. I guess they are like the little monkey, they too have no fallback plan.

Really, what has Clinton said that any sixth grader who watches the nightly news does not already know as fact? We certainly cannot say, while one cannot strut around the fucking GREEN ZONE without battle gear, even going to the crapper, that the war is a success. One
cannot say, with bodies floating in the streets of one of our most historically and strategically important cities, that the hurricane relief was a success, and one certainly cannot say, with four gas fill ups for a hog car taking the entire average Monkey Tax Cut, that the tax cuts were a success.

China owns us, we keep borrowing money from them, from Korea, from the Saudis, and the credit card is maxxed out, yet still the wee cowboy cadges more money from them and fails to see the consequences that could last for generations (good time to have the kids and grandkids learn Chinese, I guess--those foreign Sopranos are gonna eventually come looking for their vig).

[daninthemoon]

149. I saw all his appearances this weekend."lambaste" is not the word

I would have used unless I had some agenda. I had the impression that Bill is trying his damndest NOT to say how bad * has really fucked us over. I know things are a heluva lot worse than anything Bill touched on this weekend. He merely spoke the truth, and very gingerly at that.
Now, judging by this headline spin, the RW is going to start using it as fodder to go after Hilary, somehow.

[BooScout]

42. People can bitch all they want about the Clintons...

But they saw what was coming in 2004 and knew the Dems didn't stand a chance in hell of winning. Now they are positioning Hil for 2008 and she so far is the only one that comes close to a chance in hell of taking it all. Bill won by being in the center and that's what Hillary plans to do as well. I notice Bill excused her vote for Bush to use force quite tidily (to anyone not informed that is and folks, face it, that's most of this fucking country).

I know a lot of people don't like Hillary..............but ya know what? I'd still vote for her in a NY minute over most anyone of the other Democratic saps out there who will probably run.

[Charlie Brown]

55. Tell me, what about Hillary do you support?

What makes her so great, apart from the DNC's coddling of her?

Why would you prefer Hillary as opposed to someone who, say, supports full equality for gays/lesbians or wants to keep religion out of government?

[Zomby Woof]

114. You have an Edwards avatar

He supported the war ardently from Day One. He is so politically inexperienced, he let Chris Matthews corner him on Hardball into saying he would have gone to war with Iraq even sooner than Bush did.

Curious to be casting stones at Clinton when Edwards really leaves much more to be desired. :eyes:

[karynnj]

166. With enough voting machines in Ohio

Kerry would have won. (The % of voters who left, discouraged by 4+ hour waits that would have to be assumed is not out of reason. Many people simply could not do this. This argument doesn't even address that fact that exit polls of those who DID vote showed a Kerry win.)

So how do you say a Dem couldn't win? In fact if the Clinton people such as Begala and Carville would have backed Kerry rather than whining before the election that he wasn't listening to them, who knows how many more votes Kerry would have had.

[LeahD]

45. Finally! n/t

[Pepperbelly]

48. With friends like the BC bashers on this thread ...

who needs enemies?

Feckless bunch of dilettantes.

[Charlie Brown]

50. So, friend, do you agree with the Clintons

and their blind support to the Bush administration up to this point?

The posters here are just holding Bill/Hill to the same standards they would any Republican. A lot of us don't believe in giving people a free pass on Iraq/Patriot Act, etc. just because they're Democrats. It's just accountability.

[Pepperbelly]

52. Doesn't work that way, friend Charley Brown ...

You don't get to assume predicates not in evidence, just like on television. You characterized the Clintons and their "blind support to the Bush administration up to this point".

That is bullshit.

That might be your OPINION but that clearly does not thus morph it into fact. In fact, I would argue that it is far from true but since you made the argument, it is up to you to establish it. So by all means ... demonstrate their "blind support" of Bush. BTW, since you said BLIND support, tepid support of some phase or another does not establish your argument.

But by all means ... carry on. Make your case.

[Charlie Brown]

60. How 'bout this

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/04/21/iraq.hillary/

or this:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/06/19/clinton.iraq/

or this:

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0303-13.htm

or this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3248466.stm

"I have heard some wonderful stories about the kind of work that captains and majors are doing out there helping people... I think that this is a story that needs to get out," New York Senator Mrs Clinton said.

"What is important from our experience in the Balkans and our experience now in Iraq is that it's no longer enough for our military, the most powerful in the history of the world, to win the battle - they have to also win the war for hearts and minds."

(I can't believe she uttered this drivel)

[Pepperbelly]

75. What is the most amusing about your finds is ...

that none of them support your initial allegation. The first one she said that under the circumstances as she understood them, granting fucktard the authority to go to war if Saddam refused the inspections process was the correct judgment. Then she went on the criticize Bush for virtually everything he did. That does not show "blind support" of Bush. Not even close.

The second article has Bill Clinton indicating that he knew from the intelligence agencies that there was much unaccounted for in Iraq and that Hussein should be taken to task regarding the inspections. He also said that Bush had fucked up. The article notes:

-snip-

"Pressed on whether the Iraq war was worth the cost to the United States, Clinton said he would not have undertaken the war until after U.N. chief weapons inspector Hans Blix 'finished his job.'

Weapons inspectors led by Blix scoured Iraq for three and a half months before the U.S.-led invasion in March 2003 but left after President Bush issued an ultimatum to Iraqi President Saddam Hussein to leave the country.

'I want it to have been worth it, even though I didn't agree with the timing of the attack,' Clinton said."

In the third link, Hillary praised our military people. Again, not at all "blind support."

The article from Common Dreams is the most amusing of all and it thoroughly demonstrates the hypocrisy of that left-leaning publication, in doing EXACTLY what I have been noting in many threads today ... bringing right wing scat in to prove their own point. It STILL doesn't make the source, Deborah Orin, smell a damned bit better. Orin does her usual mind reading act that somehow apparently, you believe.

Nope. Your thesis is far from proven by these examples. In fact, I demonstrated how all but one of them actually indicated the contrary of what you asserted. The one that was left was a right wing smear job.

Nope.

[Charlie Brown]

81. So, tell me, do you agree w/Hillary's past positions re: Iraq

If it's not blind loyalty, what warm, fuzzy terminology would you use to describe her pandering?

If you dislike "left-leaning publications" why are you at this site?

[Pepperbelly]

94. I was about to ask you the same thing since ...

it was you who dragged Orin-scat into the forum.

Counter-punch and common dreams have earned my contempt. Or should I simply believe everything they say because they claim to be on th right side?

I think you should reassess your discussion techniques. Frankly, you badly overstated your case with grand hyperbole and little else. You should just let it go.

Good night, Gracie.

[Charlie Brown]

96. I'll ask one last time (still waiting for an answer here)

Do you support Hillary's past position on the Iraq War?

It's pretty bold to criticize someone else when you won't answer a simple question.

[Pepperbelly]

98. You re trying to change the subject.

And you can wait until hell freezes over if you are waiting for me to answer something not pertinent to the discussion you started with your post in which you claimed that Hillary and Bill Clinton blindly supported Bush.

If I recollect, your initial post hinted at many instances of blind support but you only tried to establish Iraq and failed at that endeavor.

I have made my own feelings about the Iraq War abundently clear in many posts. That is, however, not the subject currently under discussion.

[Charlie Brown]

99. Here are three of my response headings:

So, friend, do you agree with the Clintons?

So, tell me, do you agree w/Hillary's past positions re: Iraq?

I'll ask one last time (still waiting for an answer here)?

It's been many hours and I haven't seen an answer to this simple question. Perhaps you don't want to answer (but why jump in defending Hillary?) How am I "changing the subject?"

[Pepperbelly]

102. Do you not recall your initial post?

That was the subject I was discussing. It is the subject I have been discussing. And it is the subject I will continue to discuss on this thread until we get to what was true in your initial post --that you far overstated your case.

There has been no "blind support" of Bush on the part of the Clintons that you can establish.

Once the initial posting reconciled with reality, you might change the subject. Your attempts to change the subject over multiple posts does not make it any less an attempt to change the subject away from the area that you cannot support.

[Charlie Brown]

103. They have been blindly supportive on Iraq. n/t

[Pepperbelly]

104. Not from what you posted, that conclusion could not be reached.

In fact, they showed exactly the opposite. So, your condemnation is based on more of an impression rather than something specific? When they condemn specifics, does that not intrude upon your reality? And that somehow equals blind support?

I do not believe your case has been made.

I do not believe that you can make it because it just isn't true and that is why you had trouble establsihing it.

Now, since I no longer believe that you will be able to do it ... my position on Iraq?

I think we should withdraw immediately. I was conflicted when the war first began because of the mushroom cloud crap they were drumming through the media 24/7 but as soon as I realized that I had been had, and saw the consequences of the occupation, I then realized as well that we should leave and leave NOW.

[Charlie Brown]

108. On that at least, we agree

We should withdraw immediately. That's probably the best place to end this discussion.

[FlaGranny]

100. It is amazing

that two different people can read the same articles and come out with opposite takes. It reminds me of two different religious people reading the bible and picking out different parts to justify their own beliefs to the exclusion of the rest.

Some of the posts on this thread made me think I had gotten onto an anti-Democratic site. No wonder the Democratic party is so messed up - we hate each other and we hate our political leaders.

At least Bush and neocons can count on their base. Democrats sure can't.

[katinmn]

161. Makes me retch! Down with the DLC!

They are turning the Dem party into wannabe fascist liars.

[Robbins]

58. Clinton

Say what you want about Bill Clinton but he has the most talented
politician since John,and Bobby Kennedy. With the public turning on
Bush,and his policy's he knows full well he can no longer be seen as
cozy with Bush. Clinton Is working with Hilary so she can run as
a anti Bush candidate In 2008 on domestic affairs,and Begin to reach
out to antiwar Democrats. Don't be surprised to see Hilary start to
move away from supporting Bush on Iraq,and angering the DLC by reaching out to grassroots Democrats who put Howard Dean as Chair of the DNC.

[Charlie Brown]

62. But she already supported the war and continued supporting it

in spite of the 100,000 casualties, abu grahib, the mass detentions and abuses by our military, etc.

What possible good does it do for her to oppose the war NOW? At least Kerry and Edwards remained consistent.

Do you see her as a more honorable person if she changes her position on the war for political reasons?

[MADem]

69. She is playing to her constituency

of US Jews who believe a stable Iraq makes Israel safer. If they change their minds about that as Iraq descends into chaos and becomes a haven for terrorists, she will change hers. After all, she is elected to REPRESENT the people of her state, not lecture or hector them.

All politics is local. You do not get elected unless you play to your base. You need their votes, and you need their cash to run a campaign. You catch the wave and ride it....

[Charlie Brown]

83. Do you feel the same way about Republicans who supported the war?

If Bush says he wanted to go to war so that Israel could feel safer do you cut him the same slack as you do for Hillary? The Bush Administration used Saddam's missile attacks on Israel in '91 as a justification for the war. Does he get the same excuses?

Politicians who support wars of agression get no pass from me. I don't care which demographic they're trying to please.

[MADem]

105. But he did not say that, he said nothing about Israel

He said he wanted to let freedom reign, and that is why he went to war. He said he wanted to depose his dad's ole pal, who subsequently tried to kill that deddy of his. He did not say he wanted their oil, and we know he did, thus he lied. He said they had WMDs and they did not. He said the mission was accomplished, and it is not.

All Hillary is doing is what her constituents ask of her, both the substantial Jewish population and the upstate GOP. If they decide they no longer support the war, because it is not making Israel safer, I would expect her to represent her constituency and change her mind.

Had she gone far left, she would have lost the election. Senator Lazio would be calling the shots for half of the NY votes in the Senate.

Where we differ is that I am pragmatic; I would rather see a Democrat whose views do not always or entirely match my own elected, as opposed to a Republican who will vote with a vicious majority in order to get funding for the next election cycle. With a Democrat, you at least have the hope that they will change their heart over a given issue, with the GOP, in power as they are, and vested in war without end, tax cuts without end, deficits without end, Amen, there are no assurances of that nature.

But hey, you have to do what you feel is right. I just think we need to get the majority first, and do the course corrections along the way and after they take their seats. Too much infighting while trying to gain ground only strengthens the enemy.

[Charlie Brown]

107. I believe Hillary was elected in 2000

Was Iraq a big issue in New York before 9/11?

[MADem]

109. Nope, the only one plotting it was the Dubster nt

[karynnj]

169. I think you are wrong about the Jewish community

I am a NJ area Jew - there was little support for the war in my religious community, far less than in my town. Even a young Israeli who was in our community was asked about whether Israel would get involved his answer was that that occupying an Arab country with feuding groups had been tried and didn't work out well - predicting the same situation for the US. Their experience was Lebanon. Before the invasion, he predicted pretty much the situation we are now in.

[MADem]

175. I am basing my comments on the news and commentary going back to 00

Initially, Jewish support of the war from my understanding centered around establishment of a democracy in Iraq that would not threaten Israel. Of course, we all know what a fine success the war has been, so it is no surprise that the mood has been changing over time. And I have little doubt that the Senator will continue to nuance her stance (Middle East democracy good, Bush execution of war bad, horrible, incompetent) as the situation inevitably deteriorates. I know she got a load of money when she launched her campaign from a cadre of ardent Israel supporters who also were in favor of pacifying Iraq.

Of course, situations change, but Hillary, even though she can criticize the execution of the effort until the cows come home, will not be heard by those who only remember her initial support for the democratization process.

Eh, she should have listened to me, I knew from the git-go it would be a disaster!!

In 2002, the Jewish support for the war was 59%, about on par with the rest of the country, http://www.ajc.org/site/apps/nl/content2.asp?c=ijITI2PHKoG&b=837277&ct=871913

http://www.hfienberg.com/kesher/2001/12/hillary-clinton-becomes-israels-friend.html

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/michael/barone022805.php3

http://www.forward.com/campaignconfidential/archives/000387.php

[Chorophyll]

171. I just want to step in and point out that "US Jews"

are not a monolithic body. I'm from NY, I'm Jewish, and I don't know one single Jewish person who voted for Bush or who supported this war -- for Israel, or for any other reason.

Edited to say that this is in response to an earlier post by MADem.

Edited once more (and I apologize, but I'm new...) to add that it depresses me to see that someone at DU could make a sweeping generalization about a religious or ethnic group, and that no one would challenge that!

[MADem]

176. I'm not generalizing, but all politics is local

I posted a link above, just a moment ago, to an 02 survey on the Iraq War of the Jewish community, which paralleled the support by the nation at large--i.e. a majority initially SUPPORTED the war, believing it would enhance the security of Israel. Hillary got in a little imbroglio about taking some cash from a very conservative Jewish group who were very pro-war, in fact--I cannot remember the details, but there was a little brouhaha about it.

FWIW, most of my reading on the issue comes from the Forward and other Jewish publications, not from gentiles telling Jews how to feel. You shouldn't always assume prejudice, or get depressed because people want to engage in discussions of tough subjects in honest fashion without tiptoeing about. Indeed, I could be a Jew for all you know...

On edit, to further clarify: The reason this is significant to Hillary is that the Jewish community constitutes twelve percent of the NY vote, which is a larger percentage than in many regions of the nation. Just as one cannot ignore the Black vote in DC or MD, but could be less attentive to that community's concerns in, say, Wyoming or New Hampshire, one cannot ignore the influence wielded by 12 percent of the electorate in a Senate race.

[Chorophyll]

178. Thank you for the links

(although those guys don't speak for us secular, liberal Jews) and I appreciate your thoughtful answer. But if Jewish support for the Iraq war parallelled that of the nation at large (59% in 2002), maybe we can assume that it has diminished at the same rate. It's sad that so many people, of any persuasion, were so easily duped.

The point I was trying to make is that the Jewish community is not monolithic -- that is, we don't all feel or vote the same way about every issue; not even about Israel. I get a little sensitive when someone says, "Jews believe this" or "Jews vote for that." I'm sure you can understand that. My own connection to Israel is not particularly strong. I consider myself an American and I base my voting decisions on what's best for America. (Hillary was one of the few people I voted for in recent memory who actually won, but that's another story.)

[MADem]

187. I totally understand what you are saying

It is unfortunate that some discussions just automatically seem to be hot button, when there really is no intent along those lines. I simply have a fascination with why politicians do what they do, and as my hero and once neighbor Tip O'Neill used to say, all politics is local. If it's farmers who are voting for you, you go for price supports...that kind of thing. And when your constituencies are very diverse, and at the same time have no small amount of mass, which translates to influence, like they are in a state like NY, it is interesting to see the competing interests and priorities at play and how the politician resolves them to garner support.

I am certain that you are correct about the diminishment of support for the war, not just amongst Jews, but across the board. After all, for those who do count support for Israel as an important issue, a hotbed of insurgency in the neighborhood does nothing for their security posture--those no-fly zones were not ideal, but sure do look a lot better in hindsight than what we see there now.

I also think that the Senator will continue to modulate her stance, and, if we are still in this quagmire post-mid term election, and she does decide to go for the brass ring in 08, I'd expect to see an increasingly withering tone from her on the Monkey's management of the Iraq mess--maybe something along the lines of a 'major speech' or a fiery appearance on one of the talking head shows. She won't fault the spreading democracy angle, she'll blast him on the run up, the lies, and the execution. She has the seat on the Senate Armed Services Committee (quite a coup for one so junior in that body, and the first ever from NY) so she sure has a platform and access to all the dirty details from which to make her case.

[despairing optimist]

53. With friends like the Clintons . . .

who needs Republicans? I voted for Bill twice and Hillary once. They've let me down, not completely but enough to alienate me. Surely the Democratic party has candidates more in line with mainstream Americans, who are far more progressive than either Bill or Hillary. "Better than the alternative"? "Hold your nose and vote"? Humbug.

I can't help wondering whether Poppy Bush approved of BC's comment beforehand and was trying to influence his son indirectly. They have been seeing a lot of each other lately, and there's nothing particularly wrong with that. But still.

There's a thread around today about asking John Conyers to run for president. Now, there's someone to ponder!

[deadparrot]

61. I swear, the Bush-Clinton alliance has to be one of the most dysfunctional

relationships I've ever seen.

One day, Babs wants to adopt Bill as her son, and Clinton and Poppy are buddy-buddying together for hurricane relief. The next, Bill's turning up the heat on the Crime Family.

It's bizarre.

[priller]

64. I guess George and Barabara won't adopt him now.

Shame, they were all getting along so well. No vacations in Kennebunkport for you, Clenis!

[angryxyouth]

65. I really don't want Hillary!

I want someone who you know where they stand. I Like the Politicians who stand up and are heard. If gender is an issue then give me Pelosi or Boxer.

[The Blue Knight]

71. Gee, it's funny, last week people were calling for BIll's head.

And now, he's back to being an angel here on DU.

Amazing.

[Lefty48197]

74. Thank you for speaking-out, Mr. President

We need more sane voices these days.

[BlueJac]

78. So it doen't change one damn thing!!

[DS1]

82. Yes!! TWIST THE KNIFE IN THEIR BACKS SLOWLY!!!

:toast:

[tedzbear]

86. Geez, the Democrats are all over the map on this.

Why can't they be consistant??? First Clinton is doing PR with Daddy Bush, then he turns around and flames the son. This only confuses people...

[cwydro]

91. politics are politics

I will never understand why Clinton has done what he has with this schmoozing with the Bushfucks...but maybe they have a plan...I am not going to condemn the man when I believe he has tremendous ability still to influence the future. He is speaking out now...I am glad of that...why he waited I don't know...I still believe in him.

[blue state liberal]

185. I still believe in him

although it was upsetting to me to see him playing nice with poppy and standing side by side with the two bushes but give him the benefit of the doubt.

Maybe he had his reasons, I saw him on Larry King Friday night and he opposed the monkey but in a tactful manner.

I would love to see a change in the election law and have a Draft Clinton movement get started. Maybe he could unite the country and start putting things in order. Well, I can dream....FDR served three terms.

[confludemocrat]

111. They themselves are confused about what to do, when it seems clear to all

what they should be doing: advocating alternatives and talking honestly about race and class and economic issues, and repeal of the bankruptcy bill and reinstating Davis-Bacon--for starters.

[OzarkDem]

168. DLC babble

There are still too many failed Dem political advisors in DC. Our leaders should stop listening to them, maybe send them off to an island somewhere.

[Maggie_May]

89. Its about time

I have been waiting for him to speak out on this war. I hope he starts speaking out more.

[WinkyDink]

93. Bill is dumb like a fox.

He's playing a grander chess strategy than Rove is.
I.e., Clinton has now neutralized GHWB (have you heard him defending his son, regarding Bill's remarks? No.)for 2008 and Hillary.
He is in a sense rehabilitating himself in the public eye, thus neutralizing also himself.
He has found the one moment when Dubya's poll numbers allow unbridled criticism, and is taking full advantage of it.

I still abominate NAFTA and "welfare reform", however.

[mestup]

122. I totally agree. But I have to give Bill this...

...as a speaker, he is second to none.

I've been watching tons of Katrina news coverage and what struck me with Bill's interviews is that he's not afraid to answer a question.

For weeks I've listened to Mayors, Governors, Generals, and "experts" defer direct yes/no questions with obfuscations and well-you-have-to-understand's.

Not Bill. "Yes, I do." "No, I disagree." And from there he launches into the reasoning behind his answers.

Very decisive, and a good leadership quality.

[goforit]

133. Well, running to save the world w/ GHWB isn't too kosher w/ his base.

[Pirate Smile]

NYT: Clinton Levels Sharp Criticism at the President's Relief Effort

WASHINGTON, Sept. 18 - Former President Bill Clinton, asked by President Bush to help raise money for the victims of Hurricane Katrina, offered harsh criticism of the administration's disaster-relief effort on Sunday, saying "you can't have an emergency plan that works if it only affects middle-class people up."

Mr. Clinton's comments in an interview on the ABC News program "This Week" could prove awkward for the White House, given President Bush's eagerness to involve his Democratic predecessor in a high-profile role to raise money for the hurricane's victims. His remarks came days after the president gave a televised speech from New Orleans, trying to seize the momentum amid other attacks on the administration's performance.

-snip-
Mr. Clinton argued that lower-income Americans had done better under the economic policies of his administration than they are doing now, saying the storm highlighted class divisions in the country that often played out along racial lines.

-snip-
"This is a matter of public policy," he said. "And whether it's race-based or not, if you give your tax cuts to the rich and hope everything works out all right, and poverty goes up and it disproportionately affects black and brown people, that's a consequence of the action made. That's what they did in the 80's; that's what they've done in this decade. In the middle, we had a different policy."

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/19/national/nationalspecial/19clinton.html

Transcript
Bill Clinton on 'This Week with George Stephanopoulos'

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/18/politics/18clinton-text.html

[Erika]

123. W must face the consequences of his tax cuts

and everything Bill Clinton said here is accurate.

[stepnw1f]

124. Could Be Why Clinton Got So Close To Bush

To make a comparison publicly, then hammer that person publicly to humiliate them. This cuts right into Bush's ego. Clinton hangin with his daddy to only turn to the camera and tell it like it is. Pretty Goddamn ingenius!

Rove is not a genius and yes, he just got slapped down.

[ispeculate]

125. Looks like he got some political capital and spent it..

I dont think they can cut him loose right now either, or it may draw even more attention.

[jayctravis]

126. Awesome...Bill sneaked in there for the hamstring....

[ElectroPrincess]

128. No, it makes us happy for the moment but NOTHING will change n/t

[Voltaire99]

127. Still triangulating.

Criticize Bush, but damn the BBC for its critical coverage (and give his pal Rupert Murdoch a platform from which to do so, too).

Where some have principles, the man has double joints.

[belle]

196. Hey, there's a reason he's been as successful as politician as he has...

for better or for worse, Clinton is the politician's politician.

[BiggJawn]

129. "Besides, Dub, Dad likes ME better'n YOU!"

I know there are some here who think this "childish", but I feel really alienated from the Big Dog with his recent sucking-up to Poppy Bush and his disconnected opinion on gasoline prices.

I can see now how someone could consider him "the best ReTHUGlican President we ever had".

[goforit]

132. You mean this guy is finally going to stick up for himself???

He may have lost his base by kissing ass for the last 5 years.

Now if he came out and said verbatum and publically.......

"THEY HAD A GUN TO MY HEAD AND I COULDN'T MOVE",

I might just forgive his ass.

[bamacrat]

138. My boy is back.

[demo dutch]

140. Gee, I wouldn't quite call it "sharply" criticized...

[gagarux]

142. Not So Fast, 2-faced Clinton

Bill and Hill are unprincipled and will do whatever is politically expedient. Here's Bill on Friday:

Mr Clinton said that while BBC reports were factually accurate the corporation's coverage had been "stacked up" to criticise President George Bush's handling of the catastrophe. Downing Street declined to comment.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/articles/PA_NEWA16123261126979345A0?sourc

[Bethany Rockafella]

143. Unprincipled?

With what Bush has done to the presidency, you've got to be kidding.

[emrenz]

145. Bill Clinton is good for America

Okay, so maybe in a lapse of judgment he allowed his penis to do the thinking, but when he used his head, America was the better for it. That's a hell of a lot more than we can say for the reigning chimpanzee and his cohorts. We'd be better off if they LET their penises to the thinking because they don't have a brain in their heads.

Can Bill run as a Vice-President? As a powerful and influential Vice-President?

[Inland]

146. Which makes the Hate Clinton crowd even more angry, of course.

Because the premise of Hate Clinton is that everything he does is for an evil purpose, speaking up is now condemned as opportunistic or too late or because Poppy forgot his birthday, or whatever. You fill in the blank.

Incredibly, the Hate Clinton crowd is even angrier than if Clinton had switched parties, since they are scared shitless that a moderate, competent ex-president takes the wind out of some other democrat's sails.

So we spit on the only legacy of peace, prosperity, competence and justice that the dems have since, who?

[karynnj]

170. But in addition to the hate Clinton crowd

there are those of us who loved him, and will always listen to him, but realize that while he is the strongest Denocratic voice, he will use that voice only to further himself.

If he believes what he said on Iraq, that the resolution was necessary to jog Saddam into coorporating, then where was he in Jan or Feb 2003. He was the only Democrat who could have reached people at that time. Others who make the same argument, did speak out when Bush broke his promise to go to war as a last resort.

[Serial Mom]

150. Helping set the Dems up for Congressional Elections 2006

And may be helping setting up Hillary for 2006 AND 2008. It's about time.

The Dems need to get him involved in the campaigns. He was a great campaigner and Gore needed him in 2000 - I wonder how things might have turned out had Al asked him for some help.

[Tight_rope]

151. Thanks right Clinton..kick him while he's down...All is fair in love & war

:beer:

[daninthemoon]

152. Bill & Poppy are supposed to attend the Giants Saints game

tonight. Wonder what they'll talk about. Any chance poppy might secretly agree with Bill and the rest of us?

[AspenRose]

154. I'm so confused!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=2097215

Love him, hate him, love him, hate him....I'm so confused.

In my own gut, I've been disappointed with his cozying up to the Bush Crime Family, but it's good to see him speaking out (finally).

He's a complex individual by design.

[BSDRebel]

157. too late

Clinton, it's been 2 years since the war started. We could have used your support back when we protested before the war.

But, now that he's said it, then, yeah, he's right. Good for him for holding Bush accountable.

[tularetom]

165. If Clinton could run again

I'd vote for him but in all honesty I've got to think the country could do better. His career is full of instances where he took a principled position only to abandon it when the heat is applied. Health care comes to mind also dont ask dont tell. In reality he is just your basic insecure politician with a tremendous need to be liked by everybody. I think in particular because of what I know about his background he craves acceptance from those whom he perceives to be powerful eg the bush clan. I think the clenis has lost its power because someone removed the clesticles.

[nickgutierrez]

172. I'm going to guess this doesn't get much airplay.

It'll be a non-issue in about 60 hours, because it's bad for Bush.

Although if anybody has a chance to get the case against Bush out into the mainstream here, it's Bill Clinton. I guess I'm torn - but I don't expect to hear much from this, and I'll hope I'm proven wrong.

[StudentOfDarrow]

173. Right on, Bill!

:yourock:

[Festivito]

179. Glad they're letting him talk. Tired of only hearing him from Canadians.

Yeah, he's off topic. Talking about Iraq during the Katrina crisis. But, at least he's allowed to talk again.. to the mass media I mean.

Loved hearing his interview on Canadian TV. Too bad Amercians couldn't see it.

[Hotler]

182. Not much of bite in his bark....

He didn't mention; neo-con, greed, treason, corruption, theft, bold face lying and anything under the RICO act.

[AnnieBW]

183. It's Possible That

Big Dog is saying all of this FOR Poppy. I mean, Poppy must be totally embarrassed by the cock-up that his son has made of things lately. He can't come out and publicly criticize his son. But his new bestest friend can.

[Lilli]

186. Did they forget to replenish his Kool-Aid?

I love Clinton lots - but this doesnt sound like the administration cheerleader i've seen of late...wonder if Hillary decided to run after all?

[DaveColorado]

189. I loaded up aol a second ago

AOL is probably run by right wingers.

Their prominent news story was, "The two faces of Bill Clinton."

It had a link to this;

http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20050919102509990002&ncid=NWS00010000000001


When my subscription runs out, I will not renew it.

[Nightwing]

193. Glad to have the Big Dog back!!

Among Dems, the only viable candidate in '08 is Hillary. She, like Bill, will not take ANY RW bullshit. They know how to shove it right back in their face which is a hell of a lot more than I can say for nearly any possible Dem candidate seeking the nomination.

Slam me all you want; I just want to WIN damn it!! This nation cannot afford another term from these far right religious nuts. But if we continue to eat our own, we will lose. It's that simple.