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truthpusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-05 06:10 PM
Original message
http://news.ft.com/cms/s/9189fb54-e0f1-11d9-a3fb-00000e...

Clinton slams Guantnamo Bay
--------------------
By Lionel Barber and Paul Taylor in New York
Published: June 19 2005 23:53 | Last updated: June 19 2005 23:53
--------------------

(snip)

Mr Clinton joined critics at home and abroad who have singled out the indefinite detention of prisoners without trial and widespread reports of human rights violations at Guantnamo. It is time that there are no more stories coming out of there about people being abused, he said.

Mr Clinton said the test for judging whether harsh treatment of terrorist suspects was justified was whether it challenged the fundamental nature of American society. If the answer is Yes, you have already given the terrorists a profound victory.

(snip)

Aside from moral issues, there were two practical objections to the US military abusing prisoners, he said. If we get a reputation for abusing people it puts our own soldiers much more at risk and second, if you rough up somebody bad enough, they'll eventually tell you whatever you want to hear to get you to stop doing it. Mr Clinton was careful to avoid criticising the administration on the issue of indefinite detention. In three or four cases, his own administration had resorted to a US law that allows suspected terrorists to be held beyond the normal length of time without trial, if bringing an indictment or trial would compromise intelligence sources.

It sounds so reasonable but you're the guy that is in prison and you are not guilty, you could be held there three, four, five years and there has to be some limit to that, he said.



complete story: http://news.ft.com/cms/s/9189fb54-e0f1-11d9-a3fb-00000e...
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-05 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
1. Oh Bill, take care you don't piss of your new bestest friends, Babs and
Poppy.
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OKNancy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-05 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. I imagine
Bill, like so many of us, can separate the politics from personal relationships.

I'm glad Clinton is speaking out.
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-05 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. I'm sure he can. But then again, bush 41 is one of the most
evil and corrupt persons on earth. No credit due old Bill personally or politically.

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maddezmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-05 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. let him piss them off
Glad to see Bill Clinton speaking out on this issue. :applause:
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stevedeshazer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-05 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
2. In other news, Mr. Clinton announced...
...plans for a world-wide tour with former president George H.W. Bush to promote the benefits of free trade and the W.T.O.

More at 11....
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PATRICK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-05 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
4. Now how about the GOP slur
that Clinton built Gitmo? Since he is belatedly wading out after Carter does he realize this is a response or enjoining of the usual "but Clinton did it" sidebar?

Clinton got his feet wet working with too many shady characters, making too many dangerous deals and only the fact they couldn't blossom as flowers of evil in his tenure balances the fact he knew he wouldn't be around to control the crap he compromised with for high or at least practical goals Bush has thrown into a ditch with everything else.

Bush has put the "third way" into an acid bath and exposed all its fatal flaws and threats to rights and security. Everything seems dead except the blind lust for power and grasping greed even as the ability of either vice to benefit anyone shrinks to a dark singularity.

Is he still pitching his approach in the ruins as if it will bounce back to a pragmatic materialism of unfettered capitalism. Bounce, with no drastic corrections or reforms?

Tsk, tsk, Mr. Bush.
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Voltaire99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-05 06:41 PM
Response to Original message
6. Bit late for Clinton to discover morality
After killing nearly a million Iraqi children through sanctions, Clinton is the last person whose opinion on Gitmo matters.

Next to Clinton's death toll, Bush is still in the minor leagues.
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lancdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-05 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. If Saddam had cooperated with the UN
those sanctions wouldn't have been there. Put the blame where it belongs.
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-05 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. That's not true.
Edited on Sun Jun-19-05 08:23 PM by LynnTheDem
Hussein did cooperate with the UN.

Most the world, AND the UN wanted to lift most the sanctions against Iraq by 1993.

AMERICA REFUSED. And refused every year and every time lifting/easing sanctions was brought up.

It's that US veto thang.

So yeah, put the blame exactly where it has always belonged; the United States of America.

Bush 41, Clinton, and bush the Stupid all said the sanctions stayed, REGARDLESS whether Iraq was in compliance or not, until "regime change". That this violated the US's own UN resolution never bothered Bush 41, or Clinton, or bush the Stupid.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-05 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. Saddam DID cooperate with the U.N....
Edited on Sun Jun-19-05 08:50 PM by mike_c
Learn your history-- not just the U.S. gov't version-- before you cast stones. Saddam Hussein was disarmed by the early '90's. After that it was just the U.S. led coalition killing children, aka foreign policy as usual. Clinton has just as much INNOCENT Iraqi blood on his hands as Bush does.

on edit: with apologies to LTD, who was on this first. This kind of ignorance is why the rat bastards get away with murder in our names. BTW, recall that one of the most damning bits of the DSM is the admission that the coalition needed to manufacture justification for invasion. That too was business as usual-- Saddam Hussein was trying to cooperate with the U.N- that was bloody inconvenient for the U.S.
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-05 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
8. 
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ConfuZed Donating Member (856 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-05 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. *chuckles*
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ngGale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #9
27. Double "*chuckles*"
n/t
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jrthin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-05 06:53 PM
Response to Original message
10. Did Clinton get
Papa Bush's okay to say this? Must have.
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Oversea Visitor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-05 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. He is a politician
plain and simple and the winds of change is blowing.
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AllyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #11
35. He didn't say this much on Ed Schulz' show on Friday.
Schulz was slobbering all over Bill's shoes and he didn't really say much about Gitmo per se. Just talked about how torture doesn't get the answers one might think and some other stuff.

Why the change of heart?
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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-05 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
13. Your nuts are sure flyin' wide ahead of that curve Bill.
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LibertyorDeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-05 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
15. about fucking time Bill We've only been saying this for the past 3 years
so better late than never now get that famous spouse of yours
to bust some balls over this & we might take you of the shit list.
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Mich Otter Donating Member (887 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-05 08:27 PM
Response to Original message
16. Bill on Ed Schultz
On Friday, I was listening to Bill Clinton on the Ed Schultz show and Bill waffled around Guantanamo. He said we needed someplace like Gitmo to keep the prisoners.
I felt like Bill was a sellout regarding American values. He should have spoken forcefully then against the violations of Human Rights that are taking place around the world by this Administration and their friends.
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AllyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #16
36. Yeah, Mich! Me too. What a sell out!
Fiance, an Ed Schulz lover, but Bill hater, was appalled at the way Ed was acting towards Bill. And Bill's response was seriously lacking.
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-05 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
18. Bill Clinton is coming back in his next life as a highwire artist.
He's getting a lot of practice at it this time around with all his very careful balancing acts.

I'm not impressed with this lackluster statement. We (the U.S.) weren't "roughing up" prisoners, we were torturing them. No doubt we still are.

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Catrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-05 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. We weren't just torturing them
We were killing them.

Not long after the first detainees were rounded up in Afghanistan, (and don't forget the containers in which many suffocated to death) there was a coroner's report from Guantanamo Bay on two dead detainees which said the cause of death was 'blunt force trauma'. The coroner listed the deaths as 'homocides'.

But back then no one, but a few, cared. They were, after all 'the most dangerous men in the world' until we found out that there were children there, and old men, harmless, who were, after 18 months illegal detention, released. No one was charged with those deaths.

We don't need to just close it down, we need to investigate it.

I think they are all coming out against Guantanamo Bay now, because pictures are about to be released. And according to the Abu Ghraib hearings, there are 1500 video tapes from Guantanamo Bay, which I bet some of them have seen.

Lindsey Graham saw the videos from Abu Ghraib and he was in shock. He said back then, 'we are talking about murder, rape and torture' to Cheney, when Cheney tried to dismiss the hearings on Abu Ghraib.

It's about time they found their consciences and Durbin is right, they are gulags and they have disgraced this country all of them, by their silence.
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. You're right. Torture and death go hand in hand.
Like bush and Prince Bandar.



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kimchi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #24
28. I think the two deaths were at Bagram in Afghanistan.
Either way, they're dead. It is hard to keep all the death and torture straight. I am so depressed at how many of our countrymen have lost their humanity while others have lost their lives.

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endarkenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #28
32. we have no idea how many have been killed
Secret detentions means no accountibility. These practices are abhorent to a free society.
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AllyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #24
37. Yes, but they had a fine boxed lunch with chicken and fruit first.
:mad:
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libodem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-05 09:14 PM
Original message
just the hopelessness of being held without charges
and for an indeterminate amount of time, would make me sing any tune you wanted to hear. I feel most sorry for the innocent. The people sold by their neighbors...(so they wouldn't take them).....this is very spooky stuff....it is what I was taught constituted communism...and facism...a police state where someone, namely with religion, thinks they are better, takes, and then holds a person without charges. It is just plain wrong.
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libodem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-05 09:14 PM
Response to Original message
19. just the hopelessness of being held without charges
and for an indeterminate amount of time, would make me sing any tune you wanted to hear. I feel most sorry for the innocent. The people sold by their neighbors...(so they wouldn't take them).....this is very spooky stuff....it is what I was taught constituted communism...and facism...a police state where someone, namely with religion, thinks they are better, takes, and then holds a person without charges. It is just plain wrong.
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The Flaming Red Head Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-05 09:32 PM
Response to Original message
20. Considering that he was almost put in a cell on trumped up charges
You know know the man has to feel some empathy. Good for him.
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dArKeR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-05 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
21. In the name of God!
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sadiesworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-05 11:04 PM
Response to Original message
22. I'd say that puts him on target for perusing the DSM sometime in '07.
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PunkPop Donating Member (847 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #22
38. LOL!
Good one.
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GetTheRightVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-05 11:09 PM
Response to Original message
23. Hmmm, new friendship over now ??? 43 will not like this new Bill.
:kick:
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. "roughing up" prisoners"
30 deaths so far and counting regarding detainees. Bill Clinton is still triangulating. For all the ones that still have him on a pedastal, please get with reality about this man.
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burrowowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 02:12 AM
Response to Original message
29. Then why and the hell
didn't he get rid of it when he was President!?!?
It has always been illegal! Since the American take over of Cuba after the Spanish-American War, which didn't liberate Cuba but made it a gambling/whorehouse for Wealthy Americans!
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 08:35 AM
Response to Original message
30. U.S. should 'close or clean up' Guantanamo-Clinton
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050620/pl_nm/security_clin...

LONDON (Reuters) - Former President Bill Clinton has said the United States should either "close down or clean up" the Guantanamo Bay prison for foreign terrorism suspects.

Well, it either needs to be closed down or cleaned up," Clinton said when asked whether the camp on Cuba should close.

"It's time that there are no more stories coming out of there about people being abused." The prison, set up after the U.S. went to war in Afghanistan in response to the attacks of Sept. 11 2001, has become increasingly controversial in recent months. Some U.S. lawmakers have condemned the way detainees are treated at the prison.

"If we get a reputation for abusing people, it puts our own soldiers much more at risk," Clinton said.

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GOPBasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. How come?
Republicans tell me there's nothing wrong down there, and besides, torturing brown people is totally cool! I alwasy listen to Republicans.
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Inland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 09:05 AM
Response to Original message
33. Now if a pubbie had said this, he would have gotten rave reviews.
But Clinton is too easy an opportunty for dems to show how cool they are and attack the last successful national politician they had since Johnson. Too cool for school, we are.

Clinton won, was hugely popular--anybody want to forgive him for that sin? I'm willing t0 let bygones be bygones and put him on equal footing with the rest of us losers.

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bullimiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
34. and this assertion is pure bullshit
quote
The Guantnamo detainees have been classified as unlawful enemy combatants rather than prisoners of war and are therefore not subject to the Geneva Convention or to US law. The US military has admitted to using coercive interrogation techniques on prisoners but denied that these amount to torture.

This is the authors work. They are reprinting government assertion and propaganda as fact.

There is NO SUCH THING as an unlawful combatant. Bushco made this up out of whole cloth. It is not recognized anywhere in international law or the geneva conventions.

The Geneva Conventions and US law apply to everyone. Period.

The parts of the article which are quotes and facts about what clinton said are valid.
All of the filler and dressing the authors wrap it in is pure garbage.
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jurassicpork Donating Member (435 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #34
39. Wise move
for Clinton to keep mum. After all, we have him and his Administration to thank for extraordinary rendition, which was a brilliant schemehatched by the CIA not the Bushies. In a small nutshell, the CIA asked Clinton's people what they thought of extraordinary rendition and Clinton's people basically said, Go for it. By the time Bush slithered through the back door of the White House, the infrastructurew for extraordinary rendition was well-established. Clinton could've put the kibosh on it back then but didn't and now thousands of people, many of whom I believe to be innocent, have no lives.

So, Clinton's living in a glass house and is, understandably, not criticizing this administration as much as some of us would hope.
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AceAlmighty82 Donating Member (63 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
40. This isn't Guantanamo but..
on MSNBC on The Countdown...two American military troops..no older than me..I'm 23...guarded Hussein...those two saw him as a completely different person than what the MSM and presidents portray him as...oh yeah..he likes Doritos too...haha..other than funny..i just saw it as a way to get the news off of Guantanamo Bay.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 03:22 AM
Response to Original message
41. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Puzzler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 04:33 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. With all due respect,...
... to Bill Clinton... seeing that we're dealing with illegal detentions and torture of detainees...couldn't he have maybe said something a little earlier?


-P
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