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RaRa Donating Member (705 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 01:11 PM
Original message
McCain: I don't agree with British war memo
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Sen. John McCain said Sunday he doesn't "agree with" the secret minutes of a high-level British meeting in 2002 saying "intelligence and facts were being fixed" to support a U.S.-led war in Iraq -- well before the president sought approval on the war from Congress.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/05/15/mccain.memo/inde...

Well, I guess that's their angle. Like a cheating spouse...lie...lie...lie...
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knowbody0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
1. this statement fits McCain to a T
if it is unpleasant, he does not see it
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AuntiBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. You just explained the Rethuglican Dicatorship Madnes to a "T"
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #1
56. I no longer agree with McCain, do you??
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knowbody0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #56
62. i forgive just about anything
a viet nam vet/POW does-drug abuse, alcholol addiction, insanity, random acts of violence, but i would not follow them into the abyss. the dude is a fragile lunatic
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devinsgram Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #56
91. I have not one drop of respect for this man. He is a phony.
A butt kissing phoney.
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indypaul Donating Member (896 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #91
137. Exactly
After the treatment he and his family received in the 2000
primary he crawls in bed with that despicable element.
It is time he gathered a little self-respect before anyone
will ever respect him again.
Time, also, for him to stop drinking the Kool Aid and try
to get the public to listen to him once again. His vote
on the filibuster rule, should it occur, might do that.
Should he prefer to continue down this path will
simply prove he learned nothing from the "Keating Five"
episode. He remains another politico lined up like a puppy
to pee on the hydrant.
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ClintonTyree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #137
146. The time for him to gather self respect is past...
His fawning over bush in the 2004 campaign was his undoing. He let bush bitch-slap him around and then bent over and said, "thank you sir, may I have another"? He lost every bit of self respect and the respect of millions when he allowed bush to use him as a hugging, buddy-buddy campaign prop.
You're correct. After the treatment he and his family received in Carolina, a real man would have, at the very least, called him on it and used it against him later on. I would have popped the SOB in the nose. He didn't. He let it slide. He let this spoiled, rich, frat-boy make a mockery of his family and himself. Any man who won't stand up for his family doesn't deserve any respect.
There was a time when I did respect Mr. McCain. That time has long past. The good people of Arizona could and should do a lot better than McCain. Who wants a masochist representing them?
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renaissanceguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #56
154. Dear John McCain:
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #1
86. McCain is a shill for Bush
He is dead meat as far as I am concerned. McCain offers only his faith in Bush as his response to the factual British memo. If McCain had an ounce of integrity left in him he would be demanding the impeachment of Bush for lying about WMDs in Iraq.
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ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #86
103. doesn't agree with the facts
Edited on Sun May-15-05 07:33 PM by ooglymoogly
hmmmm...he would be a shoo in for high office in kansas...the laughing stock of the world....nooooooosflash...mcain has lost all credibility...move to kansas where you will be appreciated, they don't like those pesky little facts either...just don't get too close to the edge you might fall off earth
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Ilsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
2. How convenient.
I could say I don't believe the sun rose in the east and set in the west yesterday. That doesn't mean it didn't happen that way.
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adigal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #2
102. I don't agree that there is a war
and I don't agree that the sun will set tonight, although it just did.

Continuing watering down of truth, propaganda, Bill Moyer just spoke about this, when people are not allowed to hear the truth, they become obese with misinformation.
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bonzotex Donating Member (740 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #2
157. stole my analogy!
It was cloudy that day, I can neither confrim nor deny the movement of the Sun on that day, nor an I entirely convinced the Earth moves around the Sun. We should withold judgement until all the fact are in. Orbital mechanics is just a "theory" after all.
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AuntiBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
3. McCain's calling Tony Blair & his Defense Minister, and England
liars?

McCain just joined the ranks of the Delay's, and Frist-ians madness.

Aww heck. Just throw all the Rethugs in the lot with fake Democrat Leibermann leading, except for maybe Voinivich.
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gavodotcom Donating Member (400 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #3
30. McCain forgot Poland!

"We were taken for a ride."

Mr Kwasniewski's remarks mark the first time Poland has publicly criticised Washington's argument for invading Iraq, which helped win the support of Poland, Spain and Britain.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,1-1043109,00.ht...
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Frederik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #3
48. He has finally crossed the line
and entered the faith-based community.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
4. Who cares what McCain thinks?
He's a jester, nothing more. Sometimes he's entertaining and sometimes he's annoying. Sometimes he performs a good trick and sometimes he just fizzles out. In the end you wonder why he doesn't find a job more suited to his character....like water boy.

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yorkiemommie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #4
28. precisely
you nailed it.
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #4
57. Somethimes he loves junior to pieces

Anything ya need boss I'm your water boy!
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IChing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #4
64. Many do care what he thinks, the politically blind and ignorant
It's naive to think this was not done on purpose
McCain still has decent numbers
and is respected my moderate repugs,
and media lapdogs.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #64
66. Exactly who thinks his remarks weren't deliberate?
Edited on Sun May-15-05 03:05 PM by Solly Mack
It's no accident the he is speaking on the Memo...but that doesn't make him any less the court jester...quite the contrary, it proves he is.

Doesn't say much for moderate republicans that they respect a jester...but then they voted for an even bigger fool. So there you go.

I'm not in the market to "win" over idiots. The sooner they die out, the better.

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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #4
69. I love your mean banana
so does my son. :)
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. He kinda grows on ya :)
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chomskysright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #4
156. freakin' funny: Ghunga Dinn: yup: that's McCain
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
5. LOL and because he doesn't 'agree' with it negates the facts...
how?

"McCain seemed to follow Blair's reasoning, avoiding the question of the memo's contents except to say he didn't believe it was accurate."

His arrogance is showing yet again, he doesn't believe it so it is to be discarded, lol.

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AuntiBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Yeah. Welcome to the Nightmare. Un-Fricked-Real, huh.
T
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Mandate My Ass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #5
133. EXACTLY. This was not an opinion piece so his disagreement
with its content is utterly meaningless.

It's like saying you disagree that the sun rises in the east each day. You just make yourself sound stupid saying it.
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Jade Fox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
8. "Agreement" is hardly the issue....
Its either true or false.

So here we go: The debate will on the validity of the memo.

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RaRa Donating Member (705 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 01:32 PM
Original message
Ah, but our King only speaks the "truth" here in Jesusland. eom.
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splat@14 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #8
140. Agree, don't know why this isn't real apparent.
It doesn't matter if they agree with the letter or not. The issue is they need to press the question to ensure they aren't marching, lock step, with a liar - that should be McClain's goal as well as any other repub.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
9. If ya were na at the meetin, Johnny, stop flappin yer gums. eom
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medeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
10. CNN covering story tho
is huge
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rambler_american Donating Member (565 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #10
139. CNN covering the story...
Must not be anything important to cover wall to wall 24/7 like runaway brides.
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
11. Just because you don't believe it doesn't make it untrue....
Edited on Sun May-15-05 01:19 PM by cat_girl25
Republican! What a toady.
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KissMyAsscroft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
12. Didn't deny it....



Why are there people here who ever respected this guy?

I have had so many arguements with people on this board who bought this guys BULLSHIT.

"He's just PRETENDING to like Bush!" He really is a great guy!!!! He helps to reign in the extremists!!! He was a WAR HERO!!!!


I swear that some Democrats have "abused wife syndrome"
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. You are so right, he didn't deny it.
He just said he didn't believe it, which elevates it to the level of the abstract and metaphysical. The faith based community will just know their little Bushlet can do no wrong, so they will refuse to believe it, as a point of faith, regardless of the evidence. I don't know what recourse the rational community will have - it will take on the dimensions of the evolution debate.

Usually when people or societies get to this position, only a very stern dose of reality will cure them. I don't know what that might be, and it is unpleasant to speculate.
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oxbow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #15
74. Satan sent the memo to deceive us
Be ye not tempted
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Fire Walk With Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #15
90. Well said
"elevates it to the level of the abstract and metaphysical."

They're demonizing reality.

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renaissanceguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #15
155. So I guess if we don't believe in Republicans
then they're not there?

DAMN, I wish I would've figured that one out sooner.


http://www.cafepress.com/liberalissues.21272075
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Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
13. What secret minutes?
My news stations have not mentioned any secret minutes so what the heck is McCain talking about?

:sarcasm:
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burned Donating Member (219 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
14. i remember McCain saying on CNN
after he heard Bush say that there "were no plans to attack Iraq on his desk"
that yeah, there were no plans on Bush's desk, they were down the hall.

Am I imagining that?
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thethinker Donating Member (403 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
16. I love this quote
He said:

"Was there a massive intelligence failure? Absolutely. But to somehow suppose that if we had not attacked Saddam Hussein, that everything would have been fine in Iraq, I think defies the history of Saddam Hussein and his attempts to acquire and use weapons of mass destruction. Even his own generals thought that he had weapons of mass destruction."

Does he really think the Iraq people are better off now? I think most of them would disagree with him.
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #16
36. McCain has surrendered his last crumb of credibility.
He's not even addressing the authenticity of the memo.
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #36
58. This recent statement says a lot about McCain - Bush will never support
him for the Presidency in 08.
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corbett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #58
104. Since Jeb Will Run, Whose Campaign Will KKKarl Coordinate?
I drew the same conclusions as you but I'm stuck on one point: whose campaign will KKKarl run in 2008? The First Brother definitely will run in my opinion. DeLay will run and Frist will run. If McCain was given promises of the shrub's endorsement in exchange for campaigning during the 2004 reelection cycle and in favor of privatizing Social Security, whose campaign will KKKarl coordinate? I just can't see the answer.
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mahina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
17. I think he and BFEE have a deal for 08.
No other rational explanation for some of this ass kissing.
How can you not agree with proof?
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Ouabache Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #17
83. Here is the deal, although McCain will be kept in the dark
BFEE allows McCain the nomination and uses BBV to get him elected, barely. Then all of their chickens come home to roost on McCain's watch. Economy, war, envirnoment, economy, war, etc. Faux starts the drumbeat that we need ANOTHER Bush, like say Jeb ? Jeb waltzes in and takes the nomination and election (via BBV, of course) in 2012.

Sooner if they can engineer it, but not so soon as disallow Jebthro two terms of his own after he completes McCains 'flawed' term.

They barely miss a beat, but, uh, we are, of course, still a freedom-loving democracy.
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
18. John "straight talk express" McCain
I can't believe CNN actually used this nonsensical quote in their headline. The first thing I was going to post today was this very quote and how completely embarrassing it should be for McCain.
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
19. That's because McCain is a lying sack of shit RW republican
Edited on Sun May-15-05 01:29 PM by Zorra
neocon warmonger just like Bush is.

From the posted article:

"McCain, speaking on ABC's "This Week," said he has not seen any evidence that the Bush administration manipulated evidence, but admitted that "certain serious mistakes made."

McCain says he did not see any evidence. But HE KNOWS DAMN WELL THEY FIXED THE INTEL AND THE FACTS.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
20. Read the article...McCain says "People should be held responsible!" Clip::
(McCain is actually sneakily putting the question out there. After all "who" has really been held accountable. By McCain saying that it opens a door..." I can't stand John McCain, but the fact that he spoke about this means something...or we can hope)

"I think the important aspect of the opening of this conflict was that it's clear the status quo was not prevailing, that the sanctions were eroding, American pilots were being shot at every day, there was a clear intent on the part of Saddam Hussein that he'd shown throughout his entire regime, that he'd like to acquire and use weapons of mass destruction. He'd used them before.

"Was there a massive intelligence failure? Absolutely. But to somehow suppose that if we had not attacked Saddam Hussein, that everything would have been fine in Iraq, I think defies the history of Saddam Hussein and his attempts to acquire and use weapons of mass destruction. Even his own generals thought that he had weapons of mass destruction.

"Again, was it a massive intelligence failure? Should people be held responsible? Yes."
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Hand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #20
59. Starting to sound like Rummy
Asking and answering his own questions. That's a nice sleazy way of hijacking the interview and keeping it in safe territory. McCain's plainly learned a trick or two from his masters.
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AlGore-08.com Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #20
96. McCain always throws a bone like that into his shilling for Smirk
McCain saying people should be held responsible for this "massive intelligence failure" is the exact same thing as the Smirk admin holding the grunts responsible for the Abu Gharib torture while giving Gonzales a promotion.

It's bs, giving Smirk cover so that somebody can fire a few individual (low level) CIA officials, and which lets everybody who actually made the decision to invade Iraq off the hook - - not just the Smirk admin, but the folks in Congress who voted to authorize it and the idiots in the press who spent the lead up swooning over Colin Powell.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
21. The Bush administration
probably did not come out and say "We are fixing the intelligence to justify going into Iraq." The British intelligence expert knew what the intelligence really was and that it did not justify going into Iraq. The British head of intelligence learned on his trip to the U.S. that the Bush administration had definitely decided to go into Iraq in spite of what the British intelligence head knew was insufficient intelligence. So the British intelligence head, not the Bush administration said "The Bush administration is fixing the intelligence around the policy." That's how I read the memo. It does not say that Bush said, "I'm fixing the intelligence around the policy." It says that is what the British intelligence head saw that Bush was doing. No one at the meeting disagreed with the British intelligence head, because -- that is precisely what Bush did. Don't look for a white paper by the Bush administration instructing U.S. intelligence to fix the intelligence around the policy. They aren't that stupid, but it is still what they did. McCain is being literal about this. It's a sleazy tactic and he should be ashamed of himself. The British intelligence head knew exactly what was going on -- it was his job to analyze it and he did so.

McCain is the Republican spokesperson on this because the Bush administration thinks people trust McCain. McCain is a fool to do this. Only a fool lies for the Bush administration. The last nice, trusted guy who made the mistake of lying for the Bush cabal was Colin Powell -- and look what it did to him. Bush is going to use McCain chop his credibility up into little pieces, completely ruin McCain's reputation, make McCain the object of ridicule in the nation and then let McCain try to run against the Bush cabal's choice for the next Republican presidential candidate. McCain will end up crushed into a fine evil-smelling powder and swept under the fundamentalist carpet by the next Republican national convention. Mark my words.
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SlavesandBulldozers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. great post
nt
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #27
118. McCain really believes Bush will endorse him in 2008 run
Actually he's Bush's other "lap dog"!!
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PurityOfEssence Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #21
42. By George, I think you've got it
It still baffles me that anyone other than full-blown nazis have a good syllable to utter about either this skunk or Powell.

He will deserve his fate, and people will still be making apologies for him. Sadly, though, I doubt whether he'll live long enough to truly see his ignominy, but I still hold out hopes that Junior will...
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Pooka Fey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #21
49. Great post - thanks. n/t
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #21
80. Exactly. Well said.
But I don't think that they are going to trash McCain like that.I think he is already is the Bush cabal's choice for next resident.

I hope you are right, though, about him getting swept under the carpet, because a lot of people on both sides of the aisle naively believe that McCain is a "good guy", and he would be a very popular "moderate republican" candidate that could counter a growing public discontent with the RW extremism of the Bush cabal. And a genuine threat to the Dem Prez candidate that would be the obvious choice to counter Bush's RW extremism.

I think McCain is a "moderate in name only" and may be the chosen one to continue the PNAC agenda.
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symbolman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 07:35 AM
Response to Reply #21
125. Wasn't it Bush's pals in the Primaries
that passed out leaflets and radio shows about McCain's adopted (forgive me for using these terms, but I believe they are the very words used) "nigger" bastard?

Bush was even questioned about this by some reporter and shrugged it off, saying HE didn't do it - Then became a "Reformer - with Results" which he STOLE from McCain who was the "Reformer"..

Soon after McCain was licking Bush's ass like a hooker in Heat.

I believe you are correct, a fine evil powder,swept under the Fundy rug :) - he's like the fundy moral equivalent of Afghanistan, making big rocks into smaller ones, only they will grind him into a foul capichino and swallow him whole..

As a Vet I hate to do this, but I'm just about ready to get a copy of McCain trashing the USA from his Vietnam Confinment (after they'd broken both of his arms) and run that next to this statement and call him a fucking TRAITOR working for and in tandem with the rest of the TRAITORS in this Govt from the top down.

I actually liked McCain for about two days then suddenly realised that he's a FUCKING RIGHT WINGER with no more veracity than Joe LIEberman or Zell..

Ah for the glory days of the French Revolution and the sharp blade, standing starkly in the parking lot (this is sheer fantasy Mr Gonzales, I don't have a Guillotine nor the money to buy one) of the Capitol and THE PEOPLE pulling Traitors to the crowd in shackles while asking these Vermin to their faces, "So HOW do you Vote on THIS issue?"

Shhhhhppptttt..

NEXT!

Just how many Penises does Bush possess? THere seems to be one in so many asses in Congress and the media that they would be impossible to count.
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OKthatsIT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #21
127. LINK TO SOURCE?
?
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IChing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
22. I don't believe he understands he will not be president
Edited on Sun May-15-05 02:22 PM by IChing
"But I do not believe that the Bush administration decided that they would set up a scenario that gave us the rationale for going into Iraq," the Arizona Republican said.

The Bush administration still has not commented on the memo.

Just get ready for the spin,
see the memo is an opinion crap.
I saw this yesterday on this thread http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...




NeoCons spin on the Downing Memo

This was a comment on an article about the memo:



Lets say it is a real document from one Brit to another Brit, which says the first Brit thinks the Bush Administration was planning to go to war no matter what. I think that about summarizes it.
So it is this Brits opinion that Bush was dead set on goin to war in Iraq. It is still just his OPINION.

Now lets look as to the MOTIVE for releasing the "secret internal memo"; it was released to try to get the public to VOTE AGAINST Tony Blair and as a result your memo issue gets washed down the toilet.

This "inteligence" memo is an assessment, an INTERPRETATION of the tea leaves that someone in MI6 digested period.

Now if they had in fact heard or gotten their hands on a document from our US government which said that the Bush Administration was going to War regardless and they were willing to "construct a case for war" and blatantly disregard any other intelligence THEN YOUD HAVE SOMETHING THERE but as it stands this is still just somebodys opinion.

This issue is DOA simply because the above is absolutely 100% correct! It is just an OPINION expressed in a MEMO for a POLITICAL PURPOSE!

Sorry if that ruins your day. NAW NOT REALLY SORRY!

From Bella Ciao http://bellaciao.org/en /
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #22
31. We should force Bush/media to spilt those hairs.
Let them go on TV and say that with a straight face.

"Mudslinging" is all about "making them deny it" and thus getting the story out there and planting seeds of doubt- which aint hard considering most folks know there are no WMDs or 9/11 connex as they were told.

I disagree- this is a big story and we should "make them deny it."
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IChing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. agreed but I saw the spin coming
they will not deny the memo but state that it was a opionion

they need some kind of spin.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #34
40. Denying it is factual means it is at least talked about on TV.
I'm sure you are right- but at least it would mean it is "on TV" and being discussed around Red State water coolers, grocery lines and barber shops.

I disagree that we should drop issues based on how we think the media will spin it.

Let them spin- most people are a hair away from outrage- they KNOW the WMDs & 9/11 connex are bull. This memo will sow more of those seeds.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #22
35. The 'memo' is far more than an interpretation or assessment and
definitely not merely an opinion. It is a report prepared for those not in attendance at the meeting and is an official document in itself. Having done summaries of meetings myself, this is what one would prepare to present without doing a 'verbatim' report yet would contain all the pertinent information necessary to inform those to whom the report was to be sent.

The motive for the release is a moot point as regards the the contents of the report itself.
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IChing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. of course but that is the spin that's coming
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. Ahhh, no disagreement there, that will certainly will be the
strategy, the beginnings of the 'talking points' leaning that way have begun now that the media are tepidly raising the issue.
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Blue Belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #39
148. I'm just curious....
Is the issue being raised at all in Canada? Or does the Bush spin reach across the border. How is the "Smoking Gun Memo" being received up north?
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lyonn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #38
77. Let's hope they start spinning
That means the story has gotten out there for all to see.
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #35
117. I'm with you on this one. The person writing this memo wouldn't DARE
to interpret what was being said. This is TOO important to do something like that. They would report the facts as they were covered at the meeting, not present an "opinion" of what was being said.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #22
67. Don't dismiss the memo just because
it is the opinion of a British intelligence officer about what Bush was thinking. The British intelligence officer knew what he was talking about. He was expressing an opinion in an area in which he had great expertise. His opinion should be given great weight.

The memo is important because:

It corroborates the general view in Europe with regard to the American action in Iraq -- that grounds for the invasion were contrived. The UK was the only major European nation to back Bush on Iraq, and, as we see, even they knew/believed that he had contrived the evidence to go in and that the WMDs and terrorism in other nations was a more serious problem that needed to be addressed before Iraq. How many sophisticated, well informed European leaders have to be against an idea before we question its wisdom? Remember how Bush dismissed the French and Congress threatened to rename French fries and people were boycotting French imports?

It proves that Bush had already definitively decided to go into Iraq in July 2002, a fact that the Bush administration has repeatedly denied. As I recall, Condoleeza Rice vehemently, publicly and UNDER OATH denied that Bush had already decided to go into Iraq before he announced it in (I believe) March 2003 at the committee hearing on her confirmation as Secretary of State. Correct me if I am wrong on this, but I think Boxer asked her about this.

It supports the claim that the evidence of WMDs and terrorism was "fixed," cooked up and exaggerated by the Bush administration. If the British intelligence officer had access to the real intelligence and knew that the Bush administration did not have sufficient intelligence to justify the Iraq invasion, why didn't Bush have that intelligence? Why didn't the American people and Congress know about that intelligence? This memo explains why -- because Bush had already definitively decided to invade by July 2002 -- regardless of the intelligence. Bush was fixing the intelligence. Bush was not seeking an objective assessment of the intelligence. The British intelligence officer's opinion on this is important because he had that intelligence. He was in the US speaking to members of the US government on this issue and could have given his assessment of it to the Bush administration at any time even if our intelligence was flawed. The British intelligence head implies that, after discussing this with people in the Bush administration, he had determined that Bush wasn't interested in accurate intelligence that wasn't fixed around his policy. This is an expert opinion. It is based on first hand knowledge. The memo was prepared and maintained in the course of the normal business of the UK government. It probably would be accepted as evidence of the British intelligence head's state of mind at the the time, and if he tried to contradict it now, he could be questioned about the memo he wrote at the time. It is evidence.

Several forms of fraud are recognized in US civil courts. In terms of evidence, this memo would support claims of at least three kinds. (Note, I say "support," they would not serve as conclusive evidence.)

The first is fraud in the form of misrepresentation by Condoleeze Rice
at the Senate committee hearing with regard to when Bush definitively decided to go into Iraq. Additional evidence would be needed because Rice would argue about the meaning of "definitively decided" and would probably say that Bush had not definitively decided to go in until the point that he had committed to such an extent that he could not pull out. So, in a court of law, the memo alone might not lead to a verdict against Rice for misrepresentation. In the political arena, however, it could really harm her. Remember how Clinton got into trouble when he said he didn't have sexual relations with that woman --- and the argument then focused on what sexual relations meant. That might work in a court -- maybe, maybe, but he sure looked like a sleazy lawyer. He was made to squirm. At the very least Condoleeza Rice could be made to look sleazy and to squirm by this memo. Ordinary people have very little patience with lawyerly stunts like quibbling over the exact definitions of words -- to cover up an obvious lie.

A second type of fraud is concealment -- telling less than the whole truth. Bush owed a duty to Congress (and the American people) to tell them the whole truth so that they could make an informed decision about authorizing military action in Iraq. He concealed material evidence from Congress and from the American people -- evidence that was available to the British and was generally known by European leaders and even by his own intelligence officers at the time, such as the doubts about the yellow cake memo, the doubts of the UN inspectors about Bush's having WMDs, doubts about whether Saddam had no relationship with Al Qaeda, etc. In other words, this memo shows that Bush, in an expert's opinion, was not presenting a full picture of the evidence he was relying on to support the invasion. He was leaving out the doubts. He was presenting information he knew to be doubtful as the whole truth. As for Bush saying he did not know, if the British head of intelligence had a hold on all the intelligence in July 2002, there is no excuse for the Bush administration not having a grasp of it. The Bush administration simply chose to ignore or conceal information that was unfavorable to their view. In so doing, they intended to induce Congress and the American people to make a decision that was not fully informed and authorize and support the war. All the while, they knew that the American people and Congress would trust them to tell the whole truth and rely on their version of things. It's complicated. Concealment always is, but that's a case for concealment and the memo and the British intelligence officer's opinion is some evidence supporting that case.

Actually, there is a third kind of misrepresentation -- negligent misrepresentation. It is complicated, but if you tell someone you are selling them ten pounds of coffee at a certain price, and you know they are going to decide to buy the coffee from you because you have assured them you will be delivering ten pounds of coffee, you have a duty to make a reasonable effort to check the scales and make sure that, in fact, you are selling them ten pounds. You can't sell them eight and say you thought it was ten if you didn't check your scale, let's say at least within the past couple of years, to be sure it was accurate. This is particularly true if you have received a number of complaints about the accuracy of the scale and still never checked it. Honest mistakes are not negligent misrepresentation -- but the line is thin -- and makes lots of interesting work for lawyers. When Bush sold Congress and the American people on the idea of invading Iraq, he knew or should have known that the evidence on which he was relying was inaccurate and incomplete -- his scale was not accurate. This memo shows that the British head of intelligence knew what accurate evidence showed. If Bush didn't know what the British intelligence head knew, it is because he did not check his scale. He did not measure his intelligence against the world standard -- the intelligence known to intelligence offices in other western countries. At the very least, he was negligent in his representations to Congress and the American people. This is an actionable offense in a court of law -- at least in California.

I've way oversimplified all this, but I think you can see why you shouldn't dismiss the importance of the memo even if it is opinion.
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IChing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #67
71. I don't of course, just examing the spin
Right now facts are being disputed as opinion
evolution
voting fraud
bushenfurher's record
etc.

But this is why McCain is using this tactic
and expect more to come from the right including the media
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #67
75. One thing to make clear: "C" is the head of MI6
So when the paragraph starts: "C reported on his recent talks in Washington" that means the talks would have been at the top level of Washington - probably Tenet, and maybe Rice or Rumsfeld (who knows, maybe even Cheney).

CNN gives the impression it's "a British official". It's the head of British intelligence - so his opinion isn't just one person in the organisation - it's the most informed one there can be, who has talked with the people directing American policy.

(If you want a reference to show people about "C": http://www.bbc.co.uk/crime/fighters/mi6.shtml )
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lyonn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #75
79. Thanks Muriel
Now we know "C". I'd say his memos are significant.
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Ouabache Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #67
87. puts the lie to their argument post facto that the whole world thought
Edited on Sun May-15-05 05:08 PM by Ouabache
SH had WMD. There was at least British intell officer, who had met with the Bushies, and issued this report back to his government that they were cooking and contriving the evidence into a case for war, so this put the lie to the Bushie argument we have heard over and over and over that the whole world knew and agreed. This MI5 guy knew it wasn't so, and told his government in a memo that was top secret. Bushco can no longer say the whold world thought the same way. They knew better. His chief partner in the coalition of the willing knew it wasn't so. The Coalition of the Willing takes on new meaning now in the British case. They were part of the Caolition of the Willing to pander Bush Lies to the rest of the world.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #87
106. That too. Good point.
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Gman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
23. Doesn't agree with it?? What the hell does that mean?
He says he "hasn't seen any evidence that the Bush administration manipulated evidence"? What the hell is that British memo in front of his lying eyes?? Is McCain saying he doesn't agree that smoke is coming out of the barrel of the gun as the smoke oozes out and floats skyward?
He says this like there's two sides to an issue. The memo says what it says. There's no opinion room for agreeing with it or not.

Sounds like McCain is actually saying "Who are you gonna believe? Me or your lying eyes?"
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IChing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. memo is opinion not fact
see my post above.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #25
53. a memo on the minutes of a meeting is NOT opinion.
It is a summary of the elements that were discussed at the meeting!
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
24. At least he is talking about it. That is good thing.
If Kerry, Dean, Reid etc would talk about it, it would get even more press.
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
26. Don't agree? .... Don't Agree? ..... WT flying F?
That's like saying "I don't agree with the moon."

Numerous insiders have said the same thing as the memo. This just puts it in writing. This is the evidence which backs up what everyone already knows.

"But I do not believe that the Bush administration decided that they would set up a scenario that gave us the rationale for going into Iraq,"

That's different, because.... ?

Go to hell, you fucking asshole. You didn't learn shit from vietnam.
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redsoxliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #26
33. that was my reaction as well.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
29. Cain sucks ass, I wouldn't trust him with a wooden nickel.
Just another Bush whorebot. Now I see why he didn't defend his families honor - he eats Rove's shit and asks for seconds.

McCain, you're a joke now. Congrats! :eyes:
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
32. Plan of Attack by Woodward, and O'Neill's book "Price of Loyalty"
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/15/60minutes/mai...

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/10/oneill.bush /

show that either Bush planned Iraq before 9-11 (O'Neill's book) or that Bush planned it immediately after (Woodward's book).

Looks like O'Neill is the truth-teller here.

BTW, McCain is such a shill for the '08 nomination but this article by Bob Herbert should squash that, "Heads in the sand"
http://www.tkipp.net/html/editorials/columns/herbert/he...

"When asked this week on CNN how long the U.S. military is likely to remain in Iraq, Senator John McCain replied "probably" 10 or 20 years. "That's not so bad," he said, adding, "We've been in Korea for 50 years. We've been in West Germany for 50 years"

This doesn't jibe with Bush's March 16, 2005 quote that US troops will come home from Iraq once Iraqis can defend themselves. Nor does it explain the 14 'permanent bases' US forces are building in Iraq.

McCain's got some 'splainin to do.
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Turn CO Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
37. McCain: Cognitive dissonance. If I don't like it, I don't agree
with it. The contradictory evidence must be making his head hurt.

McCain: If the facts don't fit in with my preconcieved notions about what happened and how I FEEL about what happened, then I should say something like: "I don't agree".

As if his disagreeing with the situation will matter in the preponderance of evidence! What a joke McCain is. No principles whatsoever. Who keeps voting this media whore and joker into office?
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FlemingsGhost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
41. The "good soldier" takes the point again.
It amazes me that folks are still fooled by this clown.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #41
108. McCain is a masochist.
See the film, "The Secretary." But, I warn you. It is very hard to watch because it is quite disgusting. That movie shows how sado-masochism works. The look on McCain's face in the famous picture of McCain drooling on Bush's chest -- I think at the Republican Convention -- reveals that McCain gets pleasure from feeling small and squashed compared to Bush.
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bunny planet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
43. What a tool. To think I actually once respected this person.
Like the * administration actually let him in on what they were doing leading up to war.
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stevedeshazer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
44. McCain is a reprehensible politician
Only out for himself.

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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
45. I suggest we recommend this thread for the front page.
Edited on Sun May-15-05 02:02 PM by Dr Fate
Even though McCain is denying the memo, at least he is TALKING about it.

If no top DEMS will discuss it, at least McCain will-pumping up McCain's comments may be a round about way to get this in the media- even if it is a denial.

People KNOW that the WMDs were BS- so even a denial getting coverage will plant some seeds of doubt.

It may prompt more reporters to ask DEMs if they agree with McCain or not as well.
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drduffy Donating Member (739 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
46. no honor
McCain has been co-opted by the neocons. He probably did not even need to be threatened first. He has no honor.
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Frederik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
47. I don't agree with gravity
Earth keeps dragging me down but I can't say I agree with it.
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bonzotex Donating Member (740 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #47
158. Newton and his Damn LAWS!
That's why we need Judicial reform! If activist judges didn't keep legislating from the bench, antiquated Laws about gravity - not mentioned in the Constitution I might add! -- could be finally overturned so we could be free of gravity's crushing effect on families and our Moral Values!
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K8-EEE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
50. He Doesn't "Agree??" Typical Ambiguous, Bush Apologist Crap!
Edited on Sun May-15-05 02:24 PM by K8-EEE
McCain is such an assclown. He's sold his soul to BushCo.
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bush_is_wacko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
51. Is he stating that he doesn't agree that the memo is a memo or
that he doesn't agree that it's contents are important or that he doesn't agree that the "president" should have lied to the American public?

Do these people think we are ALL as ignorant as chimpy????

I think the memo made it pretty clear that there was an effort to report ONLY disinformation that would mislead the public. ALL dissenting information was., or course, NEVER allowed to be seen. THAT is deliberate. McCain is just another cowardly Senator following his leader with his lips firmly attached to his majesties ass and his eyes squeezed shut!

I thought I liked the man at one time but eventually these ignoramuses show their true colors. I will NEVER feel sorry for this man again. His "president has kicked him in the face so often I think he has started to enjoy it. Maybe his abuse at the hands of the Viet-Cong turned him into a masochist???
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IChing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. The spin is being created as: Memo Opinion? or Fact? we report you decide.
see my above posts
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
54. Bald Faced LYING has worked for the republicans so far.
Which PROVES that you CAN fool 1/2 of the people ALL of the time.
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IChing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #54
61. To quote the bushenfurher
"You can fool some of the people all of the time and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." - George W. Bush, Gridiron Club dinner, Washington, DC, March 2001
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
55. Well, were the MEMO the ONLY piece of EVIDENCE to this effect,
Edited on Sun May-15-05 02:45 PM by mzmolly
I could excuse such denial.

"analysts at the Central Intelligence Agency have complained that senior administration officials have exaggerated the significance of some intelligence reports about Iraq, particularly about its possible links to terrorism, in order to strengthen their political argument for war, government officials said."

and

"At the Federal Bureau of Investigation, some investigators said they were baffled by the Bush administration's insistence on a solid link between Iraq and Osama bin Laden's network. "We've been looking at this hard for more than a year and you know what, we just don't think it's there," a government official said."

...

"They are politicizing intelligence, no question about it," said Vincent M. Cannistraro, a former CIA counterterrorism chief. "And they are undertaking a campaign to get George Tenet fired because they can't get him to say what they want on Iraq."

In addition, in a January 30, interview, Hans Blix revealed that:

he had seen no persuasive indications of Iraqi ties to al Qaeda, which Mr. Bush also mentioned in his speech.


And on and on and on ...

http://www.politicalstrategy.org/2003_03_10_weblog_arch...

Kick ass link here:

http://www.bushlies.net/pages/9 /



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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #55
68. You can add these to the list:
..."seven months before 9/11, George Tenet testified before Congress that Iraq posed no immediate threat to the United States."

"in a Feb. 12, 2001 interview with the Fox News Channel Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld said: Iraq is probably not a nuclear threat at the present time.

"...intelligence reports released by the CIA and more than 100 interviews top officials in the Bush administration, such as Secretary of State Colin Powell, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, gave to various Senate and Congressional committees and media outlets prior to 9-11 show that the U.S. never believed Saddam Hussein to be an imminent threat other than to his own people."

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0306/S00211.htm


and this:

" And frankly they (the UN Sanctions) have worked. He (Saddam) has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbors." Colin Powell Feb 24, 2001

"But in terms of Saddam Hussein being there, let's remember that his country is divided, in effect. He does not control the northern part of his country. We are able to keep arms from him. His military forces have not been rebuilt." ---Condoleezza Rice on CNN July 29, 2001

http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/powell-no-wmd.htm


How did all these experts change their assessments on Iraq 180degrees overnight??!!

None of them ever offered new intelligence to support their NEW positions.
None of them even offered that they had in fact changed their positions!

No one in the Media ever called them on their Flip-Flops!
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #68
73. Thank you, don't you feel like we are doing the work of the MSM here?
It's frustrating.
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #73
76. There is potential here for a "journalist" to investigate
Tie up all the loose ends. You know, put all the facts together in a coherent case and report them, seeing as this memo puts it all together in a frank and unambiguous manner.

Not an editorialist, but a journalist.

Wait, do they still exist?
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 02:52 PM
Response to Original message
60. mccain the disingenous
political monkey lover doesn't "agree with the memo"? What.. that it ever happened?
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onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 02:58 PM
Response to Original message
63. McCain: I love licking George W. Bush's balls. nt
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jokerman93 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 03:00 PM
Response to Original message
65. This is Typical Orwellian Newspeak
Edited on Sun May-15-05 03:01 PM by jokerman93
In the manufactured reality of the neocon world culture, "agreeing" with facts is a deeply personal life choice...

Oh! We are sooo far down the rabbit hole now.

:wtf:
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
72. People running for office should be required to post MRIs of their brains
Who wants to bet on individual levels of atrophy? Frontal lobe damage?
Let's create a pool for who gets diagnosed with alzheimers first.

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Chicago Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
78. I don't agree with Air Pollution, but it EXISTS
just like this memo exists in fact. Disprove the facts or SHUT UP!
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TexasLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
81. No Evidence !!??!!?
McCain, speaking on ABC's "This Week," said he has not seen any evidence that the Bush administration manipulated evidence.

Maybe McCain has not seen any evidence, but the rest of the world has seen plenty of evidence from actual eye witnesses to one of the world's biggest and most blatant snow jobs.

Everyone in the position to know what the Bush Administration was up to in creating and selling the case for pre-emptive war against Iraq, and who had the courage to spill the beans, has faced serious punishment. Speaking out against war with Iraq, pointing out that Iraq was unconnected with al Qaeda, or challenging the WMD evidence allegedly supporting war against Iraq, was "rewarded" with demotion, firing, smear campaigns, and other punishments.

Partial list:

Gen Eric Shinseki
former Treasury Secretary Paul O Neill
former White House counter-terrorism chief Richard Clarke
former Ambassador Joseph Wilson and "outed" wife Valerie Plame
United Nations weapons inspector Scott Ritter

The "smoking gun" British war memo has SO MUCH corroborating evidence that it is hard to believe that anyone, including someone who at least used to have some integrity like John McCain, would still be trying to deny that Bush's case for war was BOGUS and deliberately COOKED by neocon war-mongers.


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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
82. So I guess you wouldn't mind a CONGRESSIONAL INVESTIGATION, then?
Clear you government of all doubt, Mr. McCain, and order one today.
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 04:41 PM
Response to Original message
84. Did not Bush say we relied on Brit intel?
Edited on Sun May-15-05 04:42 PM by Festivito
And, instead their intel was sexed up to fit our fix.

It remains at minimum, Bush admin negligence.
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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
85. I CAN"T BELIEVE MCCAIN!!! Oh well we Lied but we did it
POORLY!!!
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
88. You dont get to disagree with the truth. EOM
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tinfoilinfor2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
89. It's like an episode on Dallas...
John McCain only dreamed the last four and half years. So of course he can deny that any of it happened. Problem is, we are all part of the nightmare.

Sad.
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dandrhesse Donating Member (500 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 05:45 PM
Response to Original message
92. who gives a flying f what McCain thinks about it!
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damntexdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
93. Doesn't agree with what?
The Dubya approach? -- Well few of us do.

The minutes of the meeting? -- Did he attend, does he know otherwise?

Having the minutes made public? -- Well, John, join the rest of the corrupt GOP crowd.
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 06:29 PM
Response to Original message
94. Republicans Are Going Down!!!
Nobody is asking YOU. Mr. McCain to agree with anything. Did somebody ask you to agree with anything in particular? I'm sorry... better luck next time.
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deminks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 06:33 PM
Response to Original message
95. I saw this interview on This Week...
McCain looked like a deer in the headlights. He stumbled for several seconds. I don't think he knew what George S. was talking about. CNN is quoting him like he had an answer ready for this, but I think he was taken by surprise, and didn't quite know what to say, so fall back on non denial denials. IMHO.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
97. McCain is a repuke
Edited on Sun May-15-05 06:53 PM by leftofthedial
liar sociopath fascist

I don't agree with gravity, so I can fly!
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Hatalles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
98. WTF? How do you 'agree' or 'disagree' with a memo stating a fact?
Edited on Sun May-15-05 07:04 PM by Hatalles
McCain knows he can't call it a fake or even question its authenticty -- he knows it's the real deal. McCain is pinned in a corner along with the rest of Bush's apologists and when he's asked his opinion, he has no answer...

"Uh... I don't agree with it."

Good one, butt boy. :thumbsup:
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cyr330 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
99. So he says. . .
That fat windbag has no credibility. He's got his tongue so far up Bush*'s ass that he can't even wag it to perform some satisfactory analingus. Furthermore, does he have no pride? Bush just used McCain to wipe his ass during the campaign, and now McCain is sucking up like a fat little toad. Disgusting.
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MadisonProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 07:08 PM
Response to Original message
100. That reminds me of when I saw him on Christmas day.
Me: Merry Christmas, Senator!
McCain: What do you mean?
Me: It's Christmas!
McCain: I don't agree...
Me: :wtf:
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Ksec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 07:22 PM
Response to Original message
101. the memo isnt debatable McCain
So you can disagree all you want but its just making you look desperate and clueless.

The facts are there. The truth is out. We have instances of people being fired for their failure to play along. It aint debatable mccain..

Now pull your nose outta GWBs ass long enough to take a deep breath
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belab13 Donating Member (333 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
105. McCain is now a bonafide political whore -
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Postman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
107. McCain has never seen a war he didn't like.
BTW, I don't agree with gravity. Does that mean it doesn't exist?
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BlueStateGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 08:31 PM
Response to Original message
109. Well, I guess that settles it then. n/t
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yorkiemommie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
110.  " The intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy"----
should be a Bumpersticker!!!

i'm going to print this quote up and put it in my car window.
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strizi64 Donating Member (192 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
111. McCain didn't participate
in that meeting. So how can he say anything? At least he doesn't know the facts better than Blair or Straw. And they are backing that memo. McCaine, b*tch & lier...
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In Truth We Trust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 09:52 PM
Response to Original message
112. Fuck you McCain.. I don't agree with the need for assholes but you exist
regardless.
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Learning2Fly Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #112
113. After watching McCain
hug the everlovin' stuffings out of Bush at the RNC I have no interest in whatever he thinks.
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Emillereid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 10:30 PM
Response to Original message
114. "Who are you going to believe? Me or your lying eyes?
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OnionPatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 10:39 PM
Response to Original message
115. Just my opinion
but methinks McCain got "neutered" a long time ago. I would not be a bit surprised if he has had the thumb screws put to him. I also would not put it past the BFEE to threaten family as well. Look at Voinovich....all the "centrists"....they occasionally squeak a little bark of disapproval but they'll be groveling at the BFEE's feet a minute later.
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go west young man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 12:05 AM
Response to Original message
116. He spent too much time in that Hanoi Hilton. They obviously
have a very potent Kool Aid there.
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ngGale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 12:35 AM
Response to Original message
119. Status Quo for McCain...
ever since he crossed over during the convention. I have no respect left for him.
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Robworld Donating Member (144 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 12:52 AM
Response to Original message
120. I never understood why so many people held McCain in such high regards
The 2004 election proved that McCain was just another party line toting politician with no real independent voice.

http://www.dumdumgoestothecircus.com/
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jmcon007 Donating Member (782 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 12:55 AM
Response to Original message
121. It looked like McCain, sounded like McCain, but
when he opened his mouth it was the same old regurgitation of the neocon line(s).
I wonder how many more half-way decent people are going to sell their soul to the devil before Bush ends his crimes against humanity?
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bklyncowgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 06:02 AM
Response to Original message
122. McCain was in favor of invading Iraq from the Git Go.
Sure he doesn't agree with the interpretation--he was one of the guys cherry picking facts to support a pre-decided upon conclusion.
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steve2470 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 06:16 AM
Response to Reply #122
123. kick !!!!!! nt
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Stevendsmith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #122
152. Mc-Clown
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harlinchi Donating Member (954 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 06:54 AM
Response to Original message
124. McCain hasn't seen any evidence that this administration manipulated...
...evidence because all commissions and committees charged with investigating pre-war activity were precluded from looking for it! All were prohibited from attempting to determine how the scanty and incorrect intelligence was used.
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mwb970 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 07:43 AM
Response to Original message
126. Alas, this is the end of my respect for McCain.
What flavor was the Kool-Aid, John?
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Bleacher Creature Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #126
128. Just out of curiosity . . .
why is this the end, and not his campaigning and full-on bear hug with a man who spread insidious rumors about his family during the 2000 primaries?
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malmapus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #126
129. Know that feeling
I lost my respect for McCain years ago, but yeah up till then always said that for a Republican he would have my support if he ran for President. I guess it was more out of respect for his service to the country and surviving what he did (not just being a POW but he also was on the USS Forrestal when it caught fire, had to leap out of his plane while it was burning on deck).

But ever since 2001/02 in my book is when I started to loose the last of my respect for him, when he showed to really be in the pocket of Bush.
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 09:22 AM
Response to Original message
130. The most stupid response I've ever heard.
That's like not agreeing with your dentist on how many cavities you have. A BULLSHIT RESPONSE.
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demo dutch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
131. He doesn't agree ?? Was he even present at the meeting "C" is
Edited on Mon May-16-05 10:15 AM by demo dutch
is talking about? Surely not! How can you disagree with something that was said at a meeting he wasn't present at.
The way I see it, he's accusing the Brit of "misunderstanding" what was said at the that meeting! How could you possibly misinterpreted
this...
"Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD,"

Nice try McCain !!!

This is the administration's tactic every time, they send "puppet" McCain to smooth things over! Same during the election. He criticized the administration about the war before the election, praised them during the election, and criticized them after the election. The guy is just another puppet with zero credibility!
When is this guy going to learn that they're dangling a carrot in front of his nose.
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zara Donating Member (470 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 10:25 AM
Response to Original message
132. I don't agree that there were dinosaurs
they could have been rock formations after all, and according to the bible the world is only 5000 years old.
I don't agree that there were NOT WMDs in Iraq. Do you really think we would have found them against such a devious villain as Haddam Sussein?
I don't agree that Republicans ever denied a judge an up or down vote. The only judge they filibustered (Fortas) deserved to be filibustered. And the other ones as well. And the ones who never got the constitutional up or down vote, well....God is a Republican!
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 10:50 AM
Response to Original message
134. What does he mean?
He doesn't agree with the contents of the memo? Was he there, at the meeting with chimp and Blair, does he have conflicting info?

Or does he not agree with the chimp's ideas for creating a climate for war with Iraq?

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wryter2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
135. I don't agree with getting rain in mid-May
It's supposed to stop raining here around April, so this wet stuff that keeps falling out of the sky must be something else.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
136. Nice - use one of the few Repubs who is still considered respectable
(as opposed to an all-out bushbutt-kissing whore) by the masses... won't take long to ruin that!

It's gone here already... how long before the public decides he's just another bushbot?

Okay, Mr. advancement above self-respect, we hear you... you "don't agree with" the facts. Way to bring yourself down a few more pegs!
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DirtyDawg Donating Member (594 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
138. Assume it was George Stepawhatever's...
...show we're talking about. I saw it and basically, he just never answered the question directly. In fact, the problem is that there never really was much of a question. He, McCain, simply dodged it with a regurgitation of the process that bushco was going through at the time and, 'just didn't believe' that the intelligence was 'rigged' around the intent. George let him off the hook by not asking a direct question as follow-up to McCain's rambling response, to wit, 'so are you saying Senator that the memo is a lie, or that you just don't believe it? Because all the author was doing is reporting back to his superiors the gist of the sessions he have been a party to?...'. But no, they won't attempt to pin these guys down...unless they're democrats, of course.

The other thing he should have done is pull quotes from McCain's articulate attack on the religious right from his 2000 campaign that took Robertson and Falwell to task. Instead he allowed him to weasel around his previous public positions.
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JRob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
141. for me, McCain crossed over at the GOP convention...
...he's just another mouth piece taking his marching orders like the rest of them... They allow him, at times to appear to have some integrity because they believe some of us listen to what he has to say.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #141
142. The WH said would not comment (about a wk ago via Scotty M.)--guess
they are letting their lapdogs comment.
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Total Disaster Donating Member (61 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
143. McCain the "maverick" according to the press.....
Bull, he's a partisan Repub jackass. And I apologize to all jackasses out there for having made the comparison.
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #143
147. Yes. The "maverick" moniker is pure MSM propaganda. Welcome to DU,
Total Disaster!
:hi:
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sojourner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
144. My letter to Senator McCain...not sent yet (comments?)
Edited on Mon May-16-05 12:50 PM by sojourner
Dear Senator McCain:

I am writing in response to your comments regarding the leaked British memo which alleges that President Bush conspired (too strong a word?) to get British cooperation for his planned war on Iraq. I do so with a sense of outrage that you would insult the average Americans intelligence by stating, I do not believe that the Bush administration decided that they would set up a scenario that gave us the rationale for going into Iraq."

Most of us were there, Senator McCain, when the President started up the war drums. I personally doubted that any justification existed for this war, aside from the Administrations own agenda. I listened to the explanations being made at the time and drew the conclusion that they were trumped up charges. The one bit of evidence that did give me pause was Colin Powells testimony to the UN but my confidence in that was shaken once I observed how the war was conducted.

For a war conducted in search of WMD would place the highest priority on securing the sites containing explosives. To allow people to loot and destroy would simply not be smart military strategy. And we have in our military the best and the brightest do you not agree? Furthermore, a war that liberated a people would not require American troops to pull down a hated dictators statue while a small crowd of spectators looks on. (Id rather expect to see mobs of people taking it down themselves while our troops looked on in amazement.)

I would prefer that I could place my confidence in the Leader of the Free World so I take no pleasure in having seen one after another of the Presidents allegations shown to be based on distorted and faked intelligence. But to stand today and claim that the President did not set up the scenario is dishonest of you, if you possess the intellect that I expect you do. It may be politically expedient. But it is dishonest and you ought to be ashamed if you have the moral fiber that I believe you do.

I happened to be in Great Britain in June, 2003. I read with some interest the articles coming out in the British press about the sexed up intelligence behind the war, and saw firsthand the anger of a people who knew theyd been lied to. Prime Minister Blair has had a lot of explaining to do with the British people with regard to this war.

But the British people were not traumatized by the events of 9-11 like Americans have been. And they have had the luxury of a free and open press that brought out a healthy debate over facts and allegations such that they could make informed judgments about their governments activities.

This is in stark contrast to the homogenized on message coverage of events that has been the mainstay of American media. And thanks to an overblown sense of patriotism that has been rampant since 9-11, all logical debate about the war (indeed, about the government) has been cast aside in favor of unquestioning support. So the President and his Administration have gotten away with lying to the American people, to the Congress of the United States, and to the world.

You have clearly thrown in your lot to support and continue this deception. I am disappointed and ashamed.
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donkeyotay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
145. faithbased reasoning. If they don't "believe" then it's settled.
"But I do not believe that the Bush administration decided that they would set up a scenario that gave us the rationale for going into Iraq," the Arizona Republican said.

Republican beliefs:

I DO Believe that Saddam had WMD.

I do not believe in global warming.

I DO Believe that Iraq is better off today, having been invaded.

I Do not believe the president could lie about anything, because he's a Republican and Republicans are moral.

Democratic beliefs:

I believe our country is going to hell in a hand basket. I believe our presidente lied his ass off with the complicity of the allegedly free press.

I believe thousands of innocent people have died.

I believe the Republican party has been taken over by evil men.

I believe McCain is an idiot.

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Generator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
149. Hear no evil see no evil
But we still have a monkey on our back no matter how we try to claim he ain't there.

Poor McCain, his monkey is literally on his back. And it's a dumb beast. Maybe, Rove? Cheney? had McCain's conscience and vestiges of real manhood surigically removed.
Maybe he's joined the reptile nation.

Hey-I'm just askin'.
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jmcon007 Donating Member (782 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
150. It's not for Mc Cain to agree or disagree...it is what it is..
British representatives were merely reporting back to their leaders as to the direction Bush was taking on Iraq well before the war. That's an undisputed fact.
What part is McCain actually "disagreeing" with?
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Caoimhe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
151. Death of Outrage
I don't even get what "I don't agree with the memo" means... Does that mean I don't agree with what Bush did? I don't agree the memo is real? WTF? What drugs are these repukes on?

I forget who it was but it was a conseraturd that wrote a book called Death of Outrage, and I think we should steal the title back because it is exactly what we are seeing in America right now under this corrupt regime.
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katty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 05:02 PM
Response to Original message
153. McCain brain implant gov stooge-"activate when necessary"
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apple_ridge Donating Member (406 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-17-05 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
159. He just might be tied with Susan Collins for "Dumbest member
of the Senate".

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Chicago Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-17-05 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
160. Keep talking idiot mccain, the McCain 08 boat is sinking...
:)
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