Soldier: England Pics Had Legitimate Use

[swag]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050504/ap_on_re_us/prisoner_abuse_england;_ylt=AlIz.Bs9RT3l.f_ZnK0lnfWs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--

FORT HOOD, Texas - The reputed ringleader in the Abu Ghraib prison scandal on Wednesday contradicted a key part of Pfc. Lynndie England's guilty plea, in which the defendant said she knew she was committing wrongful acts when she took part in the mistreatment of Iraqi detainees.

The testimony of Pvt. Charles Graner Jr., contending that notorious photos taken of England at the prison were to have a legitimate use, could endanger England's guilty plea to seven abuse charges. Under military law, a judge can formally accept England's guilty plea only if she knew at the time that what she was doing was illegal.

. . .

Pohl abruptly stopped England's sentencing hearing after Graner testified for the defense that three pictures he took of England holding a naked prisoner on a leash were meant to be used as a legitimate training aid for other guards.

On Monday, when England pleaded guilty, she told the judge she knew at the time that the pictures were taken purely for the amusement of the guards at the Baghdad prison.

. . .

[swag]

1. To me, the implications of this fairly explode.

I wonder what others here think.

[UCLA Dem]

3. I dunno...they whole thing just seems totally warped and crazy to me.

[trotsky]

2. TRAINING FOR WHAT?

A picture book of "Don't do this" interrogation techniques?

[UCLA Dem]

4. Thats what I was thinking...what the hell kind of training is that?

[harpo]

19. said in the voice of Bill Murray "Aaaaaaaarmy training"

[spooked911]

5. They have a legitimate use in sowing discord in the Islamic world

which I'm sure our country would never ever ever try to do. The US really really really wants a stable democratic middle east.

Not.

[fob]

6. Wait a minute, he's testifying on Lynndie's behalf and then contradicts

her statements? This is the guy who is the father of her baby, right? Which one of them is lying then?

[swag]

7. I think the judge is going to try to figure that out this afternoon.

[fob]

16. The Judge? What about Lynndie's damn attorney? He didn't know

what this guy was going to say? Something's pretty stinky there.

[RaleighNCDUer]

8. Seems obvious to me --

Graner has already been sentenced and feels he's been screwed, so he is telling the truth -- they were doing it under orders.

England still thinks she's being the "good soldier" by covering for her superiors and taking the rap herself.

[Bridget Burke]

9. Originally, she was going to say something about "orders"....

But the new deal for a reduced sentence involves saying she & her pals were just having fun.

Of course, nobody should get off for following illegal & immoral orders. But that line of defense involves finding out who GAVE the orders.

[insane_cratic_gal]

18. England had every intent

on hanging her superiors along with the rest, but given their hearings have gone so badly she opted to plead guilty for a lesser time. She has a baby, and family she wanted to just due her time and move on. 2years vs 30 years to life. I'd of plead guilty too.

Not that I am defending her actions for what she did, but as a mom there is no way I would of been able to handle 30 years to life away from my child. I would of rolled over and continued to be beaten if it meant I only got 2 years from my baby girl vs 30 years. Does that make me a person of lesser principle? Maybe, but certainly a person of different principles, one that focused on my child vs my f'd up government.

She's only taking the rap for her ability to still have a future with her kid, not covering up for anyone, but taking the safer course.

[RaleighNCDUer]

35. An excellent point, which still supports Graner telling the truth. nt

[rodeodance]

25. but Englands defence always was that she was just following orders

.....England still thinks she's being the "good soldier" by covering for her superiors and taking the rap herself.

[harpo]

10. Where did the leash come from?????????????????????????

[swag]

11. I think Alberto Gonzalez had a spare.

[SodoffBush]

12. "On loan" from Scottie McClellan?

[Mist]

14. The leash - interesting...

As far as I know, most Middle Eastern cultures think of dogs as "unclean," and certainly don't keep them as pets. Ergo, the leash was brought in by someone in US forces, which shows foreknowledge and planning.

[harpo]

17. I just filed an FOIA requesting the following about the leash

Who authorized the purchase?
The chain of command for the person who authorized it
A copy of request/approval
Justification for the original request

I'll let you know what I get back :)

[Lochloosa]

26. 100 pages w/ 90% redacted....n/t

[swag]

13. More about the Graner letter

http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/2230451558

"Private Charles Graner, says PFC England was just following orders when she stood for photos with nude prisoners in the Baghdad prison. He also says he is unhappy England pleaded guilty to mistreating the Iraqi detainees.

In a written letter, Graner writes, “Knowing what happened in Iraq, it was very upsetting to see Lynn plead guilty to her charges,” wrote Graner, who was scheduled to testify today at England’s sentencing hearing. “I would hope that by doing so she will have a better chance at a good sentence.”

Graner says he and other guards were also following orders from higher ranking interrogators.

Upon hearing the testimony, the judge stopped the hearing and removed the jury. The judge says if England was following orders, she should not have entered a guilty plea."

[cestpaspossible]

15. Seems clear England will say whatever she is told

by the last person to speak to her in a position of 'authority'.

[Jack Rabbit]

20. BBC (Wednesday): Judge questions England's guilt

From the BBC Online
Dated Wedneday May 4 17:37 GMT (10:37 am PDT)

Judge questions England's guilt

The court martial of a US woman soldier who admitted abusing detainees in Iraq's Abu Ghraib jail has been halted over doubts about her guilty plea.
A judge delayed the hearing for three hours saying: "There is evidence being presented that you are not guilty."

Witness Charles Graner, who was jailed over the scandal, said he ordered Private Lynndie England, 22, to perform some of the now infamous acts of abuse.

Pte England has pleaded guilty to the charges to receive a lighter sentence.

Read more.

I, for one, would like to see this come to trial.

[swag]

21. There's some more discussion of this here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1444281

Your story has a better headline.

[Jack Rabbit]

28. Yes, this is a better headline

I saw your thread title and thought it might be related, but not the same. I was wrong.

The cause of justice is not served well by allowing PVT England to plead guilty. While what she did was reprehensible and she should be punished for it, I do not believe for a minute that she did this of her own accord or would have done it if she knew that her commanders in Iraq would be unable to protect her against charges like those she is now facing.

The torture scandals at Abu Ghraib and in other facilities in Mr. Bush's worldwide network of gulags reflect a failure of leadership. It would not be fair to either PVT England or any of the anonymous Iraqi detainees photographed with her if she were to be punished without those in more responsible positions also being brought to justice.

[txaslftist]

30. "the cause of justice is not served by allowing her to plead ..."

"..guilty."

Are you kidding me? She has a RIGHT to plead guilty. The supreme court decided that in a case called Allford v. US several years back.

She's cutting her time by cutting a deal, and that's the American Way. So what if she has to whitewash the thing and avoid fingerpointing at her superiors to do it? What's that to her?

[Jack Rabbit]

34. No, I'm not kidding

I want you-know-who on the dock. And yes, I think it's possible to get him there.

[txaslftist]

36. Heh. You need to set an alarm clock.

'cause you're dreamin.

[Jack Rabbit]

43. Last time somebody told me that was when . . .

. . . I said Nixon would be gone over Wathergate.

I won some money on that one.

[Toots]

37. Isn't this a military court?

I have not been paying attention but I just assumed it was a military trial and if that is so the judge can do whatever he wants..

[Kadie]

22. Judge Stops Penalty Hearing For Abu Ghraib Soldier

Judge Stops Penalty Hearing For Abu Ghraib Soldier
Witness Testimony Threatens Reservist's Guilty Plea

POSTED: 9:43 am PDT May 4, 2005
UPDATED: 9:58 am PDT May 4, 2005

FORT HOOD, Texas -- A military judge has abruptly halted Pfc. Lynndie England's penalty hearing at Fort Hood, Texas.


The judge stopped the trial after testimony from the reputed ringleader of abuse at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison that could endanger England's guilty plea.

Pvt. Charles Graner told the court that pictures he took of the Army reservist humiliating prisoners were meant to be used as a legitimate training aid for other guards.

The testimony clouds the issue of whether England knew she was committing wrongful acts when she mistreated Iraqi prisoners. Under military law, a judge can formally accept her guilty plea only if she knew at the time that what she was doing was illegal.

http://www.thekcrachannel.com/news/4448841/detail.html

[meganmonkey]

23. Well, then she is guilty of perjury

because she testified that this was all fun and games on the part of the soldiers.

[insane_cratic_gal]

31. wasn't that's Rummy's line?

If your Neo-Con leader happens to say it was just soldiers releasing tension? There for, you follow suit. Who knows which general prompted her to say "it was fun and games on the part of soldiers."

We know this goes to the top, there just isn't anyway to bring justice to those responsible and giving their approval for such acts. Thier act of silence is confirmation of guilt, for me.

[meganmonkey]

32. Yep. That's the most frustrating part.

This was NOT an isolated event. It has happened at prisons (sorry, 'detention camps') all over Iraq, Afghanistan, and Gitmo.

And the people who should be on trial at the Hague just get to watch smugly from the sidelines. Evil SOBs.

:grr:

[DrDebug]

24. Interesting...

So it now boils down to whether she was doing exactly what she was told and it's not even about her knowing what she did was wrong and that she even had a lot pleasure doing it.

I like the part that Graner applied his experience from a job as a Pennsylvania prison officer. What the hell happened in there? Now it's becoming an even bigger story...

[rodeodance]

27. the army uses dogs a lot over over-plenty of collars and leashes

laying around I suspect.

[txaslftist]

29. She's not being a good soldier...

and taking the fall for her superiors.

She's being a good client, and getting her sentence reduced by whitewashing the whole scandal to clear her superiors.

The Justice Department (headed by GWB, ultimately) gets what they want, which is: "it's a few bad apples like Ms. England who did the torture, not govt. policy."

She gets what she wants, which is less time in the pokey.

The only ones who don't win out here are the rest of us, because the truth (that our government is at best ambiguous, at worst complicit in acts of torture)remains concealed.

But then, what did you expect?

Mulder lied. The truth ain't out there.

[killbotfactory]

33. I wonder how many times she's been threatened with death

by people working in the interests of (but totally unrelated and you can't prove anything, damnit!) the top military officials.

[Az_lefty]

38. The Judge threw out the guilty plea...

She's going to trial.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7734657/

[daleo]

39. The pictures had a legitimate use, as neo-con pornography. n/t

[Vinca]

40. Oh . . . well . . . now I feel so much better about it all. nt

[Solly Mack]

41. I've said this before but I'll say it again.

Though people won't listen

Those pictures of England with the leash were taken during HER birthday party that was put together by Graner.

I know this for a fact. I know this because they were in Mannheim at the prison at Coleman barracks prior to their article 32 hearings(that's hearing...not a trial). During those initial hearings, the party came out.

They were partying, people.Oh, I'm sure their superiors didn't care, it was probably encouraged... and I'm sure it served the purpose of Rumsfeld and Bush.... that those soldiers made a party out of torture.

[iamjoy]

42. Maybe This is Beside The Point

But she doesn't look happy in those - the pictures with the leash, I mean. She looks unhappy. I know she is smiling in the other pictures, but if this was supposed to be fun and games, why does she kinda seem upset?

[Solly Mack]

44. Don't know. Some of the party pictures she is laughing and sitting in

Graner's lap...maybe while she was doing the leash bit she felt some guilt and it showed on her face.

I think it's blatant hypocrisy to convict those soldiers and not go after the officers, MI,contractors, Bush, and Rummy...but I think those soldiers are guilty as well.

[iamjoy]

45. I Know She Was Laughing In Some

I'm not sure what to think.
Here's a theory (flawed, I know)
I don't believe those pictures were for training purposes.
I think the soldiers were given a green light (if not direct orders) to torture. As for Private England, well, was she really participating in the worst of it (the electrodes to gentials, I mean)? I think it is entirely possible she just failed to grasp that standing in front of naked prisoners and laughing was a serious matter, and by many definitions, torture. She was with her boyfriend and having fun (at the time). A lot of women have done stupid, even criminal things for guys they love (including abusing -or allowing abuse of- their own children). Anyway, back to PFC England, maybe in the picture with the leash, something about that struck her as wrong. And maybe when all of this came out, so did her feelings of guilt and regret.

Or maybe she's a bitch and I'm totally misreading the leash picture (or maybe she had a headache that day, who knows) and she feels no guilt but is trying to cover her ass and the brass told her if she protected them they would look out for her.