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dArKeR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 12:45 AM
Original message
Chinese fighter jets increasing sorties near Japan airspace
Japanese fighter jets scrambled 13 times last year in response to Chinese military aircraft approaching their airspace, up from only twice in 2003, amid growing tension between the two Asian neighbors over territorial disputes and other issues.

Several of the Chinese aircraft were believed to be reconnaissance planes, said a Defense Agency spokeswoman on condition of anonymity. All turned away and no major confrontations were reported. She declined to provide further details on the approaching planes.

The spokeswoman, however, said Tokyo will continue to monitor possible violations of its air space and defend its sovereign rights over disputed islands, including the Senkaku, a group of islets in the East China Sea claimed both by Japan and China.

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2005/05/...
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democracyindanger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 12:51 AM
Response to Original message
1. More of the Iraq Dividend
Not only because our forces are stuck in Iraq, but the cost of the war is a major reason for China holding a whole bunch of our debt. Chimpy has given China a lot of elbow room.
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Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 12:56 AM
Response to Original message
2. Japan is living in the past
when it comes to globalization.

They still think they hold the edge over 'communist China', but the dragon is awake and on the move now...and Japan needs to rethink a few things.

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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #2
27. Any suggestions?
It sounds like you support allowing the Chinese government to invade and occupy any area they feel is "rightfully theirs".
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icymist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 01:10 AM
Response to Original message
3. With North Korea testing their missiles, what is the world to think?
Edited on Tue May-03-05 01:12 AM by icymist
I don't like it. The whole thing could erupt. China needs to be shown that support for North Korea (as in the past) will not be tolerated. So much of our debt is now towards China. What will we do? Man, this is not the time for corporate interests to be in control. Meanwhile, Taiwan.

On edit for spelling
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Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Will 'not be tolerated'?
By who? You?
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icymist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. By us. By the world. By all those who still believe that peace is possible
in the world. Oh what the Hell, man. Look at the position the Bushit administration put us all in.... What the hell do we have to do to show the Chinese, not the Chinese people, but Communist China, to show that we do not wish for nuclear confrontation? What's going to prevent China, who now has most of our former wealth, from telling North Korea "Go ahead and nuke them?" I mean that every way I look at this now, we are screwed.
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Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. The 'world'
is not having a problem with China.

The US is.
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icymist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Maybe you forget China's little back pocket of North Korea.
If North Korea is going to start flexing a nuclear muscle, than the whole world is effected. Didn't that earthquake and tidal wave teach you that we're all connected?
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Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #11
16. It's not China's back pocket
and you can't stop North Korea.

Yes, we are all connected. That's what the world has been telling you for years.

And the US doesn't run the planet, so learn how to play nice.
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icymist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 02:40 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. Go back and look at the Korean War we fought in the fifties.
Don't try to hand me that China can't handle North Korea. Look at the history of these two countries.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #21
31. Why in the heck would China WANT to handle North Korea?....
...North Korea is a definite thorn in the NeoCon backside, so why would China want to rein them in?

And another point the needs to be made:

The US illegally invaded another sovereign nation based on a pack of lies. Why do you think any other country should listen to anything we have to say at this point in time?
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NIGHT TRIPPER Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. "shown" what?
China needs to be shown that support for North Korea (as in the past) will not be tolerated
Show them What?
We have our hands tied in Iraq.
Bernie Ward just read somethiing on the air from a Pentagon Report that indicates we are currently unequiped to deal with ANY world conflict that may "errupt"!
-- a Pentagon Report!

Thanks Chimp --and Thanks to Corporate Corruption and to the Corporate Media for mustering support for an illegal invasion.-Thanks for putting us in a helpless position.

And don't think other countries don't realize our hands are tied.

So back to the point--The U.S. is unable to "show" China or anyone else anything.
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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 01:11 AM
Response to Original message
4. China knows that Japan is one wealthy country
its definite way of getting Bush of their back when China threatens them...

Is it me or is China getting aggressive!!!
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Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. China has been in isolation
for over 5000 years.

They are not 'becoming aggressive'...just joining the rest of the world at long last.
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democracyindanger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #7
12. Yeah, joining the world by testing another country's airspace
Sure, that's not aggressive at all. Their military pilots are just saying "Hello world!"

If Japan is "living in the past", where does that put China, which has been in "isolation for over 5000 years?"
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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. I agree testing someone's airspace is aggressive and especially
after you had thousands of Chineese attack your Japaneese Embassy now maybe I'm wrong but thats aggressive timing!!!
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democracyindanger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Maybe it's just us
Being isolated for 5000 years, maybe China is just a little awkward in social situations. Maybe the embassy attacks and the airspace threats are just China's way of flinging it's arms open and asking for a hug.
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icymist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. Yeah, and Bu*h attacked Iraq to establish democracy.
Without any corporate interests, nor any wish for personal gain. Yup! "Hug me!" "Love me!"
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #14
32. Maybe it's China's way of telling other countries, especially the US...
...and the US's allies, to stay out of China's airspace.

We've been doing recon over China since the U-2 flights out of Atsugi, Japan in the late 1950s.
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Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 02:17 AM
Response to Reply #12
17. Well people have been
violating Chinese airspace all this time.

What you're seeing is a giant STOP sign.

Pay attention.
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democracyindanger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 02:29 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. It's not a stop sign
You really believe that China is doing this as some kind of protest? You really think that if China's airspace wasn't violated anymore, that they'd do the same?

Wonders never cease.
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RelativelyJones Donating Member (162 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #17
35. Looks like China can't do much wrong in your eyes
Edited on Tue May-03-05 04:15 PM by RelativelyJones
Maple.

Tell it to the people of Tibet.
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Henny Penny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #17
39. remember that US spy plane...
Edited on Tue May-03-05 07:16 PM by Henny Penny
that not only would those pesky Chinese would not return... but they practically dismantled in front of the world.

I think that a lot of the "Chinese aggression" is them saying "we are in a strong enough position to reclaim what is rightfully ours but was taken from us in WW2."

But I admit I haven't really looked into the Chinese position closely enough to come to a firm view yet. I am not sure at all yet about the Chinese/Japanese tensions at the moment. Are they real, or not?
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The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 01:37 AM
Response to Original message
10. That's a fight that would be quite a challenge
The mighty US military, "best in the world - the only superpower", matched up against the Chinese. What a laff.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #10
18. How many million troops are we willing to lose? China fields an army....
...of about 3 million and can call up another 50 million with ease. A total population of 1.3 billion allows China that kind of luxury.

Are we going to use nukes against China and plunge us all into nuclear winter? Only the truely insane would do that...and I'm afraid that's exactly who we have for "leaders".

Give China another 15-20 years to get her military completely modernized, and the contest will definitely be a "challenge".

So, what is it exactly that you think is a "laff"?
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icymist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 02:37 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. 15 - 20 years? I'd bet more like five!
The Chinese are beyond us in many ways. The only thing I see holding them back is that they agree in the process of taking away our wealth in dollars. We will still have our wealth in land and ability to grow food, but for how long?
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The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 03:05 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. The idea that China could be challenged or bullied
by the US is a laff. There aren't enough bullets in the world to put down the Chinese Army, not that it would ever get that far, since they have ICBMs too.
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strizi64 Donating Member (192 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #18
30. They don't need to attack,
Edited on Tue May-03-05 10:53 AM by strizi64
they just need to stop buying US-Treasurys or even worse sell them. Yields would go trough the roof , the $$$ would plunge and the United States were toast. If it comes to economic warfare there's no chance for winning...

on edit: typo
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Turley Donating Member (585 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 03:06 AM
Response to Reply #10
23. What is that picture?
I can't make out the text. Is that pre-WW2?
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The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 03:13 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. Yes, 1929.
Malaga Cove School, Palos Verdes Estates California. The salute was commonplace. Very creepy.
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SalmonChantedEvening Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 08:09 AM
Response to Reply #24
28. Repercussions of the Bush Doctrine?
Find a reason, real or imagined, and act to put a stop to it. The U.S. has set the standard, but will object to ther countries applying it.

And rightly, when we object, we will be called on our hypocrisy.


Pandora warned us.


:scared:
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #24
29. Yes, Common, the US Olympic Team of 1936 even used it.
In the opening ceremonies and the Crowd returned the Salute (The 1926 Olympics was held in Berlin). When the Olympic games resumed in 1948 (They were none in 1940 or 1944) the "Olympic Salute" was forgotten and never been used since, but used in most, if not all, of the Olympics for 1936 and before.

My point is that type of Salute was quite common before the Nazis, used by a lot of people. The Communists even had a version of it (The raised arm with the hand in the form of a fist, this style of Salute was adopted by the Black Power Movement of he 1960s).

All of these are variations of the Traditional Greeting in the Western World, i.e. lifting your hat of your head (Which is believed to derived from Knights of the Middle Ages who would take off their helmets or left their face guard when greeting a friend).

With the introduction of Gun Powder and the dress uniform of the 1700s, putting your hand on the hat would leave gun powder residue on the hat. Thus the modern Military Salute was introduced in the form of bringing the hand up to the hat but not actually touching the hat (Thus Black Powder residue did not end up on the hat).

The Military Salute had become a tradition by the time of Napoleon, and came to be viewed as strictly military in nature. Civilians were discouraged from using it (Either to emphasis Civilian control over the Military or the separation of the Military from Civilian Society). Thus various types of Civilian Salutes have been proposed and used (None enthusiastically adopted). Since WWII, the hand over the heart (If wearing a hat, first taking the hat off one's head than putting the hand and hat over one's heart) has been the "Official" civilian salute in the US (No punishment if not done but listed in various formulation on respecting the Flag).

Prior to WWII, the hand over the heart salute competed with the raised arm salute even in the US (As shown by your Picture) but do NOT put these out of context. In Germany the arm upraised with the hand flat was the Fascist/Nazi Salute (Arm raised with hand formed into a fist was the Communist Salute). In the US the hand raised generally was not tied in with any right wing group, through it appears the raised arm open hand salute came into use in response to the Communists use of the Raised arm closed fist salute. Thus in the US the raised arm, Open Hand Salute was more anti-Communist than pro-Nazi (Through that is an admittedly fine line).

Thus when I first saw the Picture I was NOT surprised, such salutes were common prior to the 1940s, the real issue is someone doing this today not that it was done in the 1920s.

Remember even the Swastika had a different meaning prior to 1933, it was a symbol of Good Luck. In Greek Mythology the God Apollo had a Swastika curved on the back of his seat on My Olympus. You will see picture of people wearing Swastika before the 1930s, none of them viewing the Swastika as an anti-semitic symbol. The Swastika started to become an Anti-Semitic symbol in the late 1800s when a German Anti-Semitic group first started to use it to paint over Jewish Stars of David and other Jewish Symbols (The claim at the time was it covered up the Jewish Star of David better than a regular Cross). The Nazis adopted the Swastika in the 1920s as their party's symbol and flag and as they say, the rest is history.

Symbols and salutes have different meanings over time. Bad people often want to adopt traditional "Good Symbols" to give themselves the cover of being "good" (For example the recent Adoption by the Radical Right in France of St Joan of Arc as their symbol).

In a traditionally Christian nation like Germany a variation of the Cross has long been adopted by people to show people they are "good". Christ even mentions such people when he says that even the Devil and Cite Scripture (The tradition Jewish symbols of Good). As it been said by better people then me, Evil is NOT the opposite of Good, but the Corruption of Good. For evil to survive needs the cover of Good to survive, thus Evil will always cover itself with the cloak of Good. In the US it will be to "preserve" Democracy and the Constitution i.e. "To Save Democracy we must not let the majority decide", they will deck themselves in the American Flag, Support the Troops rhetoric, the Cross etc to give them the cover to do the evil they want to do.

Thus do NOT get hung up on old picture of people doing things that today we view as Fascists, remember the context and the history.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. I Can't type.
Edited on Tue May-03-05 04:02 PM by happyslug
I meant to type "The 1936 Olympics were held in Berlin", the 1932 had been in Los Angles, and the 1924 had been on Paris and Amsterdam:.

http://www.olympic.org/uk/games/index_uk.asp

Olympic Summer Games:

1896 - Athens
1900 - Paris
1904 - St. Louis
1908 - London
1912 - Stockholm
1916 - Berlin (Canceled due to WWI)
1920 - Antwerp
1924 - Paris
1928 - Amsterdam
1932 - Los Angeles
1936 - Berlin
1940 - Tokyo, than Helsinki, Finland, than Canceled.
1944 - Never Scheduled
1948 - London
1952 - Helsinki
1956 - Melbourne
1960 - Rome
1964 - Tokyo
1968 - Mexico City
1972 - Munich
1976 - Montreal
1980 - Moscow (Boycotted by the US)
1984 - Los Angeles (Boycotted by the USSR and Warsaw Pact Nations)
1988 - Seoul
1992 - Barcelona
1996 - Atlanta
2000 - Sydney
2004 - Athens

Olympic Winter Games:

1924 - Chamonix (First Winter Games)
1928 - St. Moritz Switzerland
1932 - Lake Placid NY, USA
1936 - Garmisch-Partenkirchen
1940 - Sapporo, Japan, than in 1938 St. Moritz than Garmisch-Partenkirchen in 1939, than Canceled.
1944 Never Scheduled
1948 - St. Moritz
1952 - Oslo (First games that the Soviet Union Joined in)
1956 - Cortina d'Ampezzo
1960 - Squaw Valley
1964 - Innsbruck
1968 - Grenoble
1972 - Sapporo
1976 - Innsbruck
1980 - Lake Placid, NY USA
1984 - Sarajevo
1988 - Calgary
1992 - Albertville
1994 - Lillehammer 1994 (Start of Winter games two years AFTER the Summer games)
1998 - Nagano 1998
2002 - Salt Lake City
2006 - Turin, Italy.
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mumon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 07:19 AM
Response to Original message
25. In defense of China...
Edited on Tue May-03-05 07:20 AM by mumon
I don't like the escalated militarism between these 2 countries; I've visited both, (Japan many more times, actually), and wish they'd get along.

But having said that, Japan's military m.o. has been the surprise attack from the ninjitsujin to the Russo-Japanese War to Pearl Harbor.

Given the state of conditions between the 2 countries, "tickling their defenses" is a pretty standard way of finding out what your opponent has and where he has it.

We used to do this all the time with the Soviet Union, and in fact did this to China ourselves back in the 2001, if you recall.

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democracyindanger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #25
34. Today's Japan is going to surprise attack today's China?
Their giant robots must be more advanced than I thought.
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rppper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. china doesn't have the amphibious capability to attack japan.....
china has a weak, outdated navy at best...a huge army yes, so so air force and a weak naval force. they led a month long incursion into Vietnam in 1979, seen by many as retaliation to Vietnam ousting the pol pot regime in Cambodia. they did manage to advance as far as Cao Bang, about 20 miles into N.Vietnam, before they abruptly withdrew. they army of Vietnam did manage to inflict heavy casualties.

japan would sit in a similar situation, only more well protected via the china sea. japan's air force is as modern as they come, their navy is large, modern and well equipped, sharing aegis technology with our own navy. they have a large submarine fleet as well with the capacity to launch cruise missiles at land or sea targets. they are also building 2 600ft long amphibious assault ships, which will probably be aircraft capable(helos and harriers or the f-35), thereby giving them their first aircraft carriers since WW2. their army isn't the WW2 monster it was, but it is modern and large enough to adequately defend the islands. they also have a large reserve.

japan has been upgrading and increasing their defense forces for the last two decades...they have seen the dragon awakening.
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. NYT: Chinese Navy Buildup Gives Pentagon New Worries
(This article has been archived and is unavailable, but I posted the abstract. China's navy is apparently no longer as outdated as "conventional wisdom" has painted it to be over the years.)

ABSTRACT - Pentagon officials say China is focusing its growing defense spending on weapons systems that could exploit perceived American military weaknesses in case United States ever needs to respond to fighting in Taiwan; say China has purchased or built enough amphibious assault ships, submarines, fighter jets and short-range missiles to pose immediate threat to Taiwan and to any American force that might come to Taiwan's aid; some American military analysts believe China could now defeat Taiwan before American forces could arrive at scene; even most hawkish officials at Pentagon do not believe China is preparing for imminent invasion of Taiwan, but it is quietly challenging America's reach in western Pacific by concentrating strategically on conventional forces; photo (M)

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F4091EFB...
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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. Who needs amphibious carriers when you have nukes!!!
Taking out Japan would be like taking out America's biggest Ally

thats the point!!!
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nine30 Donating Member (593 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 07:36 AM
Response to Original message
26. This is the price we pay for cheap Walmart shit
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