Venezulean leader: U.S. citizens oppressed

[Minstrel Boy]

Venezulean leader: U.S. citizens oppressed
Hugo Chavez in Havana for trade talks

Friday, April 29, 2005

HAVANA, Cuba (AP) -- Saying that U.S. citizens are oppressed by their own government, Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez promised Friday that he would not visit the United States again until Americans "liberate" their nation.

Chavez, in Havana for trade talks, told an international gathering of activists here that before an earlier trip to Cuba, a U.S. State Department undersecretary he did not identify warned him not to go because he would no longer be received in Washington.

He said he went ahead with that trip anyway, and later traveled to the United States to visit U.S. President George W. Bush, who he said greeted him with a Coca-Cola in his hand.

"I have not returned, nor do I think about returning again, until the people of the United States liberate that nation," said Chavez, saying that Americans are "oppressed" by their government and U.S. media.

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/americas/04/29/venezuela.cuba.ap/

[The Magistrate]

1. Col. Chavez, Sir, Impresses Me Ever More Favorably....

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

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[Solon]

18. Then how do you explain the coup against Chavez...

After all, our CIA and Ambassador to Venezuela were both at least complicit in it, not to mention that some of the plotters now reside in the good old USA.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

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[Solon]

23. I don't agree with the characterization of Chavez as a thug...

Also I advise you watch "The Revolution will not be televised", a documentary that was filmed at the same time as Chavez was arrested and detained by the Coup Plotters. The Ambassador of the United States was the FIRST ambassador to enter the presidential palace after Chavez was deposed. Also Bush's own public statements of the time, more along the lines of "It was a great day for democracy." or some such obviously showed where his own sympathies lie.

As to the Domestic situation in Venezuela, let's see, its bad, could be worst. I don't see how Chavez is destroying it, it was damn near destroyed before he was elected, but he is trying to introduce reforms that benefit the poor, land reforms big on the list, and at the same time, have some economic independence from the United States and other hostile western powers, while trying to help form a coalition within Central and South America for economic co-dependence outside the purview of the IMF and World Bank. I don't see any of that as bad, if you do have information of him destroying his country, then by all means present it, I'm not nearly closed minded about this as you think. I wasn't a fan of Saddam, but at the same time, our regime change was worse than the disease. At worst, Chavez opposes the US government of Bush's and so do I, but that isn't nearly the end all, be all, of our commonalities.

[clem_c_rock]

35. Thanks - most people who criticise Chavez are basing on

our media reports.

[Solon]

36. I know, and the thing that really annoys me...

is the fact that they bring in rhetoric, instead of facts, to argue the point. I would have less of a problem with criticism of any leader of any nation if they actually stuck to facts, and based their opinions of those leaders because of those facts. Labels only go so far, and using them and innuendo as a basis for opinion makes that opinion weak, in my opinion of course.

[katty]

51. Chavez is standing up to bushcrap and the CIA

[hector459]

69. Chavez is more legitimate than Musharaff.

At least Chavez was elected...twice!

[Gyre]

34. You don't know squat about me

But I despise Bush, AND like Chavez A LOT for being a democratically-elected leader of a little country, AND because he makes A LOT of sense when he speaks. Actually, makes more sense in a single press conference than chimp has made during his ENTIRE time in elected office.

My conclusions: 1) you're presumptuous, 2) you're arrogant, 3) you have no objective reason to be either.

Gyre

[Don Claybrook]

40. You can go ahead and stop typing now

It's hard to really care how much or how little you know about Venezuela, and I don't feel at all compelled to attempt to pass your little litmus test just because you claim to have relatives in Venezuela who hate Chavez.

[aneerkoinos]

43. I think

this newbie "with family there" has an OD'd on Cisnero-media.

There's lot's of people hear on DU who have been watching Venezueala very closely, looking into facts not just propaganda, and debunking the constant lies and inaccuracies by Corporate Media and the fools who repeat them with verifiyble facts.

[cliss]

56. Thug?

Remembe the old saying: the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Anybody who's opposed to Bush is my pal.

[Zhade]

96. Gah! Even though that freeper got banned (rightfully)...

...that's not a great worldview. I mean, that's why Hussein was useful to the U.S. at one time.

The freep was an uninformed, arrogant liar. That doesn't mean I can agree with the "EOMYIMF" line.

Just sayin'.

[Name removed]

112. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PhuLoi]

29. What line of work are your family members in down there?

My sympathy is with someone who demonstrably benefits the poor and working class, as opposed to the top one percent more frequently assocciated with the petroleum industry and the landed gentry. I make neither claim nor inference as regards your family.

[The Magistrate]

31. My Engagement In This Matter, Sir, Is Long--Standing

My support for Col. Chavez and his policies in Venezuela is deeply rooted. That he is opposed by those who have long predated on that country's people and resources comes as no surprise.

Countries with oil, you know, must sell it somewhere....

[LeighAnn]

41. Nicer than anything I would have said about her

I could think of a lot worse things to say about a person directly responsible for the deaths of many thousand Iraqi children and more than 1500 American Troops. They owe an apology for going too easy on her.

Ode to Hugo Chavez

http://www.hereinreality.com/hugo_chavez/

[PaDem]

42. Please educate those of us who are in the dark on Chavez?

Why is he not all that people at this forum have him cracked up to be?

[GHOSTDANCER]

53. Damn, How's that Koolaid taste?

Day after day alone on the hill,
The man with the foolish grin is keeping perfectly still,

[Wizard777]

55. Mc Clellan can say.

There is smoke behind us. There are flames rising in the glutious maximus region. But is our ass any less on fire just because Chavez has sounded the alarm?

[Itsthetruth]

59. Viva Chavez!

You've been reading too much right-wing and perhaps "liberal" DLC propaganda and believing it!

[Ms. Clio]

64. Would that family in Venezuela be "in-laws?"

Hmmmm.

[dingaling]

32. CHAVEZ

should shut the f..k up. Fidel is an infidel. Chavez is a democratically elected leader and should watch what he says in public and who he associates with. He can make Venezuela a socialistic democracy but really shouldnt be trying to imitate Cuba and Castro. Castro has a bad human rights record and anyone that respects human rights would not associate with Castro.

[aneerkoinos]

44. Mr. Dingaling,

The truth is that Chavez could not do much in terms of education and health care without help from Cuba, which happens to have best know-how and human resources in América in these human development issues.

It's Cuban doctors that are providing healt care in the favelas, where uppity (and often racist) Venezuelan old school doctors would not work. It's the Cuban developed literacy- and education programs that have worked wonders in Venezuela.

I have great respect of human rights, and I would be happy to shake mr. Castro's hand.

[Zhade]

97. A democratically-elected leader should "watch what he says"?

No, see, that's the attitude of that traitor in the White house. Most people would think that any country free enough to democratically elect Chavez is free enough to let its leader speak his mind.

Hell, WE'RE less free than Venezuela in many respects, and yet that arrogant, lying, murderous waste of DNA sonofabitch b*s* still babbles nonsense about an "axis of evil", and we're supposed to expect CHAVEZ to "shut up"?

What drugs are you on? Did you bring enough for the class?

[peacetalksforall]

108. What a leap...just because they talk in the here and now means that

Chavez is going to imitate Castro? C'mon.

Everything is totally different between them. In the last forty years....the U.S. has hurt Cuba by an embargo demanded by Cuban-Americans at the same time they collaborated with Venezuelan Presidents who let the U.S. call the shots. The little people of both countries suffered.

Now it's becoming an of the people, by the people, for the people - the way it is supposed to be here. But our Presidents are Banking Presidents, Corporation Presidents, Military Brass, Cabinet Secretaries, Intelligence officials, Lobbyists, PNAC type organizations, the Fed Society who leads the way in revising the constitution and the bill of rights, and an army of think tankers who figure out new ways to screw us.

Viva the little people!

Education, Medicine, Opportunity.

Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Verse 3)
Blessed are the meek: for they shall posses the land. (Verse 4)
Blessed are they who mourn: for they shall be comforted. (Verse 5)
Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill. (Verse 6)
Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. (Verse 7)
Blessed are the clean of heart: for they shall see God. (Verse 8)
Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. (Verse 9)
Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Verse 10)

[Judi Lynn]

113. That's a wonderful post, higher class.The Beatitudes look even MORE

relevant in this context. I truly hope they bear a promise which will be fulfilled. Anything less would reveal an entire world lost to evil.

[anarchy1999]

78. Go see and read everything from Al Giordano.

http://www.narconews.com/

http://www.bigleftoutside.com/

Your mind will be enlightened in new ways.

[anarchy1999]

80. These arguments.these flames, the anger tossed around, just plain damned

stop it now!

Go read and and then everyone, let us all get back together, okay? It is just a thought and a good one. Chavez and Bush are going nowhere this week..

Back to Congress Critters.........and what are they up to this week?

[Zhade]

99. Anarchy, some longterm DUers insist that Narco News is 'not credible'.

Some also insist that Greg Palast just makes shit up, and that the 2000 election wasn't stolen.

No matter how good the evidence (such as that from Palast, or the links you brought forth), some will still refuse to see reality - and I'm talking about longterm, otherwise-liberal DUers.

There will NEVER be consensus and unity when even good liberal Dems can't see what's going on around them.

[knowbody0]

2. every time he speaks

i love him more.

[Dhalgren]

3. Chavez is telling the truth.

And we are going to need all the support we can get, if we are ever to liberate this nation. It's good to know that more and more foreign leaders are discerning the reality of the current US...

[Frederik]

4. Right on!

You can't help but like the fella.

[Rabrrrrrr]

5. Would be nice if other world leaders would start speaking up for us

and doing the same.

God, I never thought I'd have to say this, but I think it's time for sanctions against us so that we can be freed and liberated again.

[yorkiemommie1]

8. he's right and i agree w/ you

n/t

[frictionlessO]

6. Wouldn't it be great if the millions of us that agree with President

Chavez, could some how let him know?

Send him flowers and a special edition Don Quixote or something?

Something positive that he could show other central and south American leaders. Just in case the neoconsters go to extreme lengths and start "neutralizing" us. Maybe they'd come to our rescue??

Then again its friday and Im all serendipitly twisted.

[GirlinContempt]

30. One thing you can do

Is sign some of the petitions, such as the one HOV is doing

[frictionlessO]

47. Why thank you! and thanks for the link in your sig!

I like your name as well!

[GirlinContempt]

75. You're welcome, you're welcome

And thank you :)

[frictionlessO]

87. I signed the petition as well.

and yer welcome ya radical gamer!

[GirlinContempt]

92. Thats awesome

Check out that site and see if anything in your area is coming up, I know next weekend here is a thing for HOV. Always lots of info and good stuff going on :)

[Zhade]

100. Another video game addict thanks you for the link to HOV!

Petition happily signed.

Viva Chavez!

[eridani]

77. Or a Spanish language mp3--

--of Man of La Mancha? "To dreeaam the impossible dreeaammm.."

[frictionlessO]

88. Bwahahahah!!

Yep! You were feelin' my words!

A very fitting title as well.

Dank ya!

[babsbunny]

7. Yes!

That is what I am feeling! Oppressed!

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

9. I'm up for that suggestion!

Viva la liberacion!

[dxdem]

10. I thought

it was Falwell et al's crew that was oppressed, not us.

[meganmonkey]

11. I hope Chevez helps bring democracy ot the US

(not the way way we 'bring democracy' to other countries of course!)

[Justitia]

12. Hey Hugo, thanks for thinking of us!

And realizing that we are not all fundamentalist fascists.

And, uh, can you keep us updated on all your contact info - for when they eventually come to lock all us liberals up?

:hi:

[mutus_frutex]

13. As much as I don't like Chavez..

I have to give it to the guy.. :-) He has a knack for saying exactly what will piss-off the WH.. :-)

By the way, Fidel looks really old in that pic, it makes me sad..

[IChing]

14. Chavez

Is leading a revolution on real economic and democratic liberty in latin america.
Stay safe amigo.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Minstrel Boy]

17. One answer:

You better f*cking believe it.

But I only speak for myself. And I'm just a stoopid Canuck.

[Solon]

20. I'm ambivelent on Castro myself...

Too much misinformation on both sides of that coin, but in the case of Chavez, he's the elected leader of his nation, multiple times, survived a coup, and has yet to be dictatorial in any of his powers, look at Venezuela's media and who owns and runs them to see that. If he wanted too, he could have closed all those stations and newspapers down. Instead, he is encouraging his own supporters to compete with them, HOLY shit a market being created by a socialist.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Solon]

25. Did I say I liked Castro?

I guess mischaracterizations are your cup of tea, I presume. I said I was ambivelent, look it up at www.dictionary.com ignorance isn't always bliss after all.

[elias49]

26. How much do you know

about the US?

[AP]

28. This road you're taking is one that many before you have travelled.

Rather than ask people to repeat their opinions about Venezuela for the dozenth time, just make a donation to DU and search the archives.

Search "I have family there," "Chavez is a thug," and "what do you people think of Castro."

Feel free to cut and paste any of the earlier replies into this thread if you want to engage this debate.

But please don't ask people to rehash this debate anew with you (unless you can prove that you're more worthy of people's time than our favorite anti-Chavez DU'er, windandsea.)

[Zhade]

101. windandsea! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Ah, AP, that takes me back. Such an arrogant blowhard, that guy. He worked hard as a propagandist - so hard, in fact, that I hope he was paid for it.

Not paid much, mind you; he was a terrible liar and very unconvincing. But his sheer efforts at trying to duck and weave around reality are worth a few peanuts.

windandsea. What a guy! We had so much fun with him, it was almost a shame he got thrown out of the joint.

[AP]

109. The funny thing about this is that w&s's successors rehash...

...windansea's failed arguments.

It's like there must be a textbook out there that they all follow. Their personal stories are always exactly the same as are their tactics and arguments.

[Judi Lynn]

114. Correct! They all seem the same after they've explained their positions

I'm not going to mention the points by which we identify them, as it would encourage the next wave to try to create variations to stump us, when it's always hilarious seeing them all go through the same routines, as if each one is unique.

Absolutely will never forget how dazed and confused Windansea finally got before he simply self-destructed.



To Windandsea: the windier they are, the harder they fall...

[GirlinContempt]

33. Oh for effs sake

My ex took a trip to Venezuela, and he'd support whats being said in this thread, and I'm not talking about what you're saying.

I'm sorry Chavez is a well spoken unrepentant socialist, and this causes people to blacklist him, but the Venezuelan people seem to love him. He's the future of Latin America, strong, intelligent, and unabashedly outspoken in the protection of his people.

[nodehopper]

105. actually, having just spent 6 months in South America

and having met many people from Venezuela,

there is at best a strong ambivalence about him at the moment. Call it backlash that befalls every visionary leader, or call it reaction to growing autharitarianism, but he is not a public figure beloved by all, or even necessarily a majority. At least not anymore.

[gordianot]

38. Welcome to DU.

I do not know that much about Chavez but suspect he is trouble. It is easy to fall in the old trap of the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

I have a problem with authoritarian demagogues. Fidel Castro, George W. Bush, Adolph Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Benito Mussolini, Korean Kim's, Tom DeLay, Bill Frist, Richard Nixon. I could write a long list of authoritarians on both the left and right. Problem is news reporting in this country is broken. I have not taken the time to research Chavez to form a solid opinion.

I know this the Mig 29 Sunburn missile system he purchased is major trouble to the United States and all of South America. In my opinion that is why Bush is staying away. As much as I detest wars of aggression Iraq, Chavez's linkage with Castro is troubling. Together they could make the United States and all of South America pay dearly for Bush's oil adventures in the Mideast.

[aneerkoinos]

46. Hello there, enemy! :)

I see you belong to the "my country right or wrong" moderate imperialist crowd.

All the best, love you! :)

[gordianot]

62. Not quite.

Just a little too tolerant of other opinions. I've seen my country do a lot of wrongs, how about you? Time will show who the real imperialist are.

[AP]

70. Who are the hopefuls for the title of "real imperialist"?

???

[aneerkoinos]

72. Tolerant?

Sure, that's why I said moderateimperialist, not fascist one. Of course imperialists can think they are tolerant, civilizing the (barbarian, socialist you name it) wogs is the noble and tolerant cause of imperialists with a Manifest Destiny in mind.

How could "As much as I detest wars of aggression Iraq, Chavez's linkage with Castro is troubling. Together they could make the United States and all of South America pay dearly for Bush's oil adventures in the Mideast." be interpreted any other way but that in your opinion Latin America must stay under US thumb and be denied the democratic freedom to choose socialism and real independence from US and IMF?

[gordianot]

90. I agree with that. Does that surprise you?

Sometimes it is easier to discuss things.

South America does not need to stay under U.S. thumb. Brazil's De Aquino is one of the worlds best hope to break suppressed energy technology. I have been watching his publications regularly, it (and similar research) has the promise to make oil barons, dictators, obsolete.

Castro is a tool. While a teenager he wrote I think it was either Truman or Roosevelt asking for a $100.00. He has continued that behavior pattern to this day. The Russians supported him then leave. Life was so dry he even befriended Saddam Hussein. (No I don't think we should have invaded Iraq) Guess he has found a new mark with lots of oil money to fund new adventures and buy some of the latest gadgets. Castro has a talent making arms dealers everywhere wealthier. I'm sure he is more loved by American arms dealers than those who supply him.

As for as America paying dearly if you have not noticed there are now vigilantes on our Southern border a terrible development. They even scare the Bush administration. Instead of paying attention to his own people and neighbors, Bush is Balkanizing the American hemispheres. Actual Diplomacy and fostering relationships has never occurred to him. You would think he would work something out with neighbors, Bush has his own agenda.


I swore off Chavez posts and I mean it. Bye

[aneerkoinos]

95. Tools

Not really much, I'm allwaus happy to be positively surprised.

My knowledge about Cuba is limited and relative, objectively most I know is very positive. I agreee Castro is a tool, but in this historical context Castro is and has been a tool for Cuban people to create a good, equalitarian society, and a symbol to keep the Miami oligarchs away, and important symbol of struggle against US.

You can't honestlu suggest that freedom loving Cuban people would have kept Castro as the symbol of strugle, if the gringo imperialists were not so vehemently against democratic socialism.

Yup, Castro is a tool of Cuban revolution, deal with that fact.

[AP]

57. "Authoritarian demogogue"? There's enough information out there about

Chavez so that you have no excuse for having an uninformed opinion. He's written a couple books and there's a great documentary about him out there. Do some research and then come back and tell us your informed opinion.

Your claim about the Mig 29 and the threat to the neighbors defies logic. Rice just paraded around SA trying to drop up hostility towards Chavez and every country down there told her to buzz off. Venezuela is signing pipeline deals with Columbia and co-development oil deals with every other country in South America. Your claim that he's a problem to his neighbors is the first I've ever heard anyone say that. Do you have an legitimate support for that claim?

[gordianot]

60. Don't think you read my post or I was not clear.

I do not like Castro.

As far as Chavez is concerned I quote; "I have not taken the time to research Chavez to form a solid opinion". Maybe I can be convinced that Chavez is a positive development. From what I have seen from some of his supporters (here) they don't seem to like discussion. That is too bad I really am trying to keep an open mind. What I have against Chavez he is hanging with bad company namely Castro. I never put Chavez in my list of Authoritarian Demagogues.

I believe the United States needs to stop once and for all "Gun boat diplomacy" treating South and Central America as our personal sphere of influence, however they are neighbors and their well being is in our best interest.

What I have read and studied the new technology Venezuela, Cuba is buying from Russia threatens good old American Carrier Task forces (gun boat diplomacy). If I was in Chavez place I would want some insurance, but South America has a long history of arms races. See Brazil, Argentina, Chile when they started buying and wasting money on Battle Cruisers at the turn of the 20th century. The Sunburn missiles have the potential to start a South American arms race and plays into Bush's plans to create some tension in South America. Just what South America needs is an arms race with Russia and the United States competing for limited resources. Arms dealers profit while poverty works its continuous special magic in the developing third world.

I have been on DU for sometime and know there are a lot of different opinions here. For the most part the different opinions are tolerated and the moderators are good at keeping everything civil. I will try not judge Chavez by those who allege to support him.

I am convinced that Bush is a new phenomena in American politics. He is a threat to everyone who deals with him. As far a Chavez is concerned I will wait and see. Right now I am more interested in seeing sanity reestablished at home.

[AP]

63. Like I said,

I don't think there's an excuse for having an uninformed opinion about Chavez.

As for you impression that DU'ers don't tolerate diverse opinions on the issue: you couldn't be more wrong. DU tolearated very diverse opinions on Chavez for a long time and Chavez resoundingly won that debate. People are just tired of having to go through the debate one more time especially when the doubters don't bring any new strategies or information to the debate. They all start like that one above (with the reference to relatives and to Castro) and they ALL end the same way.

There should be a FAQ or something on this issue, I guess. But really, there was a lot of dissent on this issue and it has pretty much been resolved. And, without new arguments or information, it's going to be hard to get a result different from the one that you get every time the issue comes up.

If you do a search of posts by windandsea, you'll see the arc that the debate always takes. DU'ers may be reluctant to rehash the issue one more time, but I'm sure they have no problem with anyone who wants to revisit all Windandseas numerous posts on this issue.

[gordianot]

66. My writing must be really off base.

I need to quote again, guess I am not clear.

"I have been on DU for sometime and know there are a lot of different opinions here. For the most part the different opinions are tolerated and the moderators are good at keeping everything civil."

Translation: I thought I said for the most part people at DU are tolerant. I enjoy DU and have made many friends here and have learned a lot. I never implied DU is intolerant on this subject. I doubt that anyone could find a position (other than Bush is a disaster) that is consensus.

No reason to rehash anything with me. I must thank you for the impression of this topic maybe it is worth more research. On this thread I have a clear view of (some) Chavez advocates and concerns. As far as Chavez topics on DU are concerned I intend to confine my activities to reading.

[AP]

68. I was replying to this:

"From what I have seen from some of his supporters (here) they don't seem to like discussion."

My impression is there haven't been a lot of differing opinions on Chavez for a while. There were about 16 months ago, but the the one anti-Chavez line of argument was rebutted pretty firmly. Nonetheless, that line of argument reappears every once in a while, and it's not so much a "discussion" as an echo of an argument that failed to convince anyone a long time ago.

[Mika]

65. Castro this/Castro that

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(((YAWN))) :boring:

[gordianot]

67. That's good.

You're right he has never done that much other than being used as a pawn and surrogate in superpower struggles. I think he is still in business. One of those enablers and lightning rods for trouble.

If the embargo would have been lifted he would disappeared long ago.

[Selatius]

94. He bought MiG-29s, not Sunburn missiles

As far as I've seen, he has not bought Sunburn anti-ship missiles. If you have a source that says otherwise, I'd like to see it.

[LynnTheDem]

71. Canada has been on excellent and very close terms with Castro & Cuba

for many, many years.

Does that "trouble" you? Does that make Canada a threat to the USA and the North Pole?

Most the world except the USA has been on good terms with Cuba for a long time.

As with Iraq, when the rest of the entire world stands on the opposite side of America on an issue, maybe it ain't the rest of the world that's wrong.

[gordianot]

83. Not at all.

The US should have ended the embargo years ago. United States opposition to Castro has in many ways been his greatest gift.

[eridani]

79. Yep, those Sunbursts could keep him from being attacked--

--by US aircraft carriers. Sounds like a good idea to me. Unless you think invading Venezuela for its oil is a good thing or something.

[gordianot]

84. Good defensive weapon for now and I don't blame Venezula for ordering.

They do effect the ballance of power. One country gets new toys others also want them. An old pattern in South America. See how many Venezuala get and how they are deployed. My problem with this the superpowers (U.S., Russia, China) are starting up the same old crap using surrogates. The cold war never really went away, it got sneaky. Problem is America has been seized by neo-con mad men.

If Venezuala is a mess it is America's fault for too many years of meddling in other people business especially in South America. No I do not think the United States should have been involved in a coup, nor do I think the United States has any business invading other countries for oil. I have a friend who is an electrical engineer who says the energy crisis could have been solved long ago with the right motivation. Maybe we need to get hungry before we get that motivation. I do wonder though how many who complain about America's "Imperialsism" will complain about high gas and energy prices next winter.


Empires, American (US), Russian, German, Roman, Spanish, British, Communist, French, Arab etc. all add up to same thing.


I'm swearing off Chavez posts. Bye

[frictionlessO]

85. You shouldn't swear off any posts in regard to Chavez.

You tookk soem heat but I thought you debated very well. For me you brought a view I didn't have before into the equation. Im still fine with the Sunburns and Migs but at least you opened someone elses eyes just a little bit to the possibilities that eat at you a bit.

Just saying that DU needs varying opinions from posters who know how to argue without setting bait traps to catch some flames.

Thanks for posting your thoughts in a reasonable manner.

[AP]

89. Are you implying that if energy prices are high next winter, DU'ers who

object to US imperialism in Iraq and Venezuela shouldn't complain?

Not only are these obviously not binary choices (imperialism is morally and economically wrong regardless of its impact on prices for raw materials), it's not a given that helping big oil companies circumvent OPEC and monopolize the production and distribution of oil will neccessarily lead to lower prices.

In fact, the plan might include a compenent where the power of national oil companies dissipates so that private companies don't have to worry about price competition from them and can charge uncompetitive higher prices for oil.

[gordianot]

91. As one who objects to Imperialism I won't complain.

Good point.

"Not only are these obviously not binary choices (imperialism is morally and economically wrong regardless of its impact on prices for raw materials), it's not a given that helping big oil companies circumvent OPEC and monopolize the production and distribution of oil will necessarily lead to lower prices."

I also object to ANWR drilling

If you haven't noticed American imperialism is not working out real well in Iraq. Maybe if we can ever find out what Cheney agreed to in 2000 (Energy Policy) we would know what is going on today.

[AP]

107. American imperialism is working mighty well in Iraq if you think its goal

is to cause chaos in Iraq in order to create uncertainty in the oil markets, which drives up prices and profits for Bush's favorite industry, and if you think part of the goal is to increase the cost of economic development in Russia, China, India, the EU and the developing world at a time when their efficient development would be a problem for an America which is more interested in using fraudulent accounting to drive up share prices so insiders can cash out than it is interested in building competitive companies which produce goods and services consumers freely choose to consume.

[gordianot]

110. Since I am not discussing Chavez I will respond.

There are new world alliances being formed in reaction the stupid adventures of the ** administration. Production and access to oil is going to become more difficult as OPEC and others that are pissed off holds off distribution. Gas prices as I hear it may fall but the long term outlook next winter is not good.

I can give up my commuting job anytime and head for the country and the farm.

[eridani]

93. An alternative to imperialism--

that is, conquering a resource base, is throwing all our resources instead into inventing the post-oil economy.

[Zhade]

102. You should keep reading them. You sound willing to learn.

Always stuff to learn when you have an open mind. Like AP said, your arguments have been refuted by others long ago, but you can still learn a lot from these threads.

Stick around! :)

[blindpig]

24. I do

I'd sure as hell rather have him for head of state. A least he cares about his people, his country. All bu$h cares for is his class.

Please save your outrage for someone who is uninformed. I've been there and seen it. The US Government has done far more harm to the Cuban people than Fidel Castro has.

[LynnTheDem]

37. I'm appalled by YOUR comments, and obviously you know little to

absolutely nothing whatsoever about President Chavez.

[Ashy Larry]

52. Sounds like you need to do some reading

Here is a very informative article from The Nation written by Christian Perenti: Hugo Chávez and Petro Populism
The author actually spent some time in Venezuala interviewing both supporters and opposers. He is doing alot to help his people which is more than anyone can say for you.

[Judi Lynn]

54. Excellent. I've read part of your article,have saved it for later tonight.

It's really hard getting information outside the propaganda storm directed at us from the administration and it's long reach within our own media.

Thank you.

Welcome to D.U. :hi: :hi: :hi:

[David__77]

19. I wholeheartedly agree. We need liberation!

There is a rancid oligarchy pulling the puppet strings here. If Venezuela can do it, I firmly believe that the US can as well.

[Toucano]

27. Ain't it the truth! n/t

[cal04]

39. Looks like he calls it like it is.

Chavez also criticized the current Latin American tour by U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, referring to her as an "imperial lady" who is trying to divide and conquer the hemisphere's developing nations.

[Rainscents]

45. Amen!

[JanMichael]

48. I like Chavez and hope he's able to stay the course.

The plutocracy will try again to remove him, that's almost a given as far as I'm concerned, let's hope he smacks their greedy asses down...Again.

[Judi Lynn]

49. Our own ignorance is the only power our right-wing has ever had

over U.S. citizens. When they mold our perceptions about leaders they don't like it's done only through our own unwillingness to educate ourselves.

For ambitious trolls trying to seize the upper hand here concerning Hugo Chavez, you are attempting to pull a fast one over people who have made it their business to start getting informed. You'd be better off trying to dupe someone else.

We've already been through this countless times, as AP said. Most DU'ers are conscientious, diligent citizens who don't fall for propaganda from any source.

Trying to encourage people to hate leaders in this hemisphere while we have supported and encouraged dictators in Latin America and the Caribbean who actually slaughtered their citizens is beneath contempt.

[loudsue]

86. Bravo, Judi Lynn! Very profound post, and so true...

:applause: You nailed it!

:kick:

[Zhade]

103. It's stupidity in the unwitting service of evil, actually.

You're right, btw - thanks to people like yourself and Mika, newbie maybe-freepers (never can tell, some are just misinformed) would have an easier time making Niagra Falls reverse than to convince me to buy into USG propaganda of any kind.

Even if Chavez were evil (he's demonstrably not so), I'd have preferred to learn it on my own instead of swallowing the information whole. Educating yourself (hopefully) means never having to say you were duped.

[MontageOfFreedom]

50. Then lets get the ball rolling and permanently liberate it....

http://www.velvetrevolution.us

Divestiture the liars and traitors of democracy.

[Robeson]

58. Thank you for representing the U.S. citizens, Mr. Chavez....

...its nice to see that somebody cares about us.

[chlamor]

61. The axis extends in all directions-nominated

"If of axis we are going to speak, the axis one would be extending in all directions", said Chávez.

When will the wage slaves break the chains

[AuntiBush]

73. Wow! Luv the Pict!

Shew... it's late but it was a great read and even better picture that explains it all, as I bid all good night!

:hi:

[AuntiBush]

74. Ya think we can get any other LEADERS to HELP US?

I mean, this is pretty bad when other countries are saying it.

Aw-boy.

[anarchy1999]

76. Is Chavez sending a message to George? "Bring it on, bro?"

Damn. Okay Chavez, I love you man, but back off, quit taunting this family. It is not a healthy thing to do. mmm,kay? Good.

[chlamor]

81. kick

[bobthedrummer]

82. For years and years and years oppressed Americans have sought

relief, who listens to them? President Hugo Chavez.
Now, how much do flats rent for in Caracas?

[Voltaire99]

98. Bravo, Hugo!

Chavez is the light of our hemisphere. Would that the US had a leader with even a tenth of his decency.

[femme.democratique]

104. I love it! You said it, man!!!

[bush_is_wacko]

106. God, ain't that the truth!?!?!?!

We can talk about this crap all day long on DU but it gets us NO WHERE with the GD administration that controls our every political move. I still fear something will come along and allow him to shoot Social Security dead on the spot. His recent claims of a non-existent SS trust fund should have put America in a tailspin and into the streets to DEMAND he put the money back in their trust fund, but it went mostly unnoticed!

Will any nation come forward and liberate us from our evil dictator?

[Name removed]

111. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bridget Burke]

117. It's not that Cuba & Venezuela will keep getting better....

But that WE will keep going on our destructive downward spiral, under the control of the WRONG party.

[larry_walker]

115. Chavez's remark in context..

.. makes a lot more sense and is a lot less inflammatory than it's being taken in this discussion.

I was at the Teatro Karl Marx in Havana on Friday for Chavez' speech, along with 40 other Americans who were in Havana for the anti-FTAA conference.

Chavez' remarks about the American people needing to liberate their government were preceded (as best I can recall, given 4 hours of simultaneously translated Spanish) by remarks about the undemocratic manner in which trade agreements are pushed through the US Congress. He pointed to the fast-track arrangement that prohibits amendments, to the Republican leadership's fondness to late night and short-notice votes, to the American media's failure to expose the public to any details of these agreements' effects on workers (US or Latin American). He (rightfully, in my opinion) said that America has a lot of nerve claiming to be the paragon of democracy when the people and their representatives are denied any meaning deabte or voice in the content of these agreements.

Taken in context, his remarks were no more inflamatory than the bumper stickers I see on the streets of my home town: "Regime Change Begins at Home".

I would also like to add that the US press does not seem to have paid any attention to what I felt was the most significant thing Chevez said on Friday. Based on the mediocre simutaneous translation, he said approximately: "What we in Venezuala call Bolivarianism, others may call Socialism, but perhaps most accurately should be called Christianity."

Chavez made a nnumber of references to his upbringing as a Christian and his belief in the teachings of Christ, with special reference to the quote "A camel can pass though the eye of a needle easier than a rich man can enter the kindogm of heaven."

Some may dismiss this as propagandistic grandstanding, but after 5 hours of sitting ten rows back from the man, I came away with an unexpectedly strong impression that Hugo Chavez is genuine in his profession of Christian concern for the poorest and the weakest among us...
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[AP]

116. There you go -- bloggers doing a better job of reporting than the media.

Interesting observations.

Sounds like Chavez and God's Politics author Jim Wallis are on the same page.

Incidentally, to me, the meaning of the eye of the needle parable is not that being rewarded for your hard work is contrary to christianity. It's dying with a lot of money that is a problem. If you die with a lot of money, that means that there were a lot of good things you could have done which you didn't (and many of them involve helping to create a world where, during people's one chance on earth, they're able to accumulate economic power, and live in dignity and live happily).