Marines From Iraq Sound Off About Want of Armor and Men -NYT

[Rose Siding]

snip>
In returning home, the leaders and Marine infantrymen have chosen to break an institutional code of silence and tell their story, one they say was punctuated not only by a lack of armor, but by a shortage of men and planning that further hampered their efforts in battle, destroyed morale and ruined the careers of some of their fiercest warriors.

The saga of Company E, part of a lionized battalion nicknamed the Magnificent Bastards, is also one of fortitude and ingenuity. The marines, based at Camp Pendleton in southern California, had been asked to rid the provincial capital of one of the most persistent insurgencies, and in enduring 26 firefights, 90 mortar attacks and more than 90 homemade bombs, they shipped their dead home and powered on. Their tour has become legendary among other Marine units now serving in Iraq and facing some of the same problems.

"As marines, we are always taught that we do more with less," said Sgt. James S. King, a platoon sergeant who lost his left leg when he was blown out of the Humvee that Saturday afternoon last May. "And get the job done no matter what it takes."

The experiences of Company E's marines, pieced together through interviews at Camp Pendleton and by phone, company records and dozens of photographs taken by the marines, show they often did just that. The unit had less than half the troops who are now doing its job in Ramadi, and resorted to making dummy marines from cardboard cutouts and camouflage shirts to place in observation posts on the highway when it ran out of men. During one of its deadliest firefights, it came up short on both vehicles and troops. Marines who were stranded at their camp tried in vain to hot-wire a dump truck to help rescue their falling brothers. That day, 10 men in the unit died.

......MORE....

http://nytimes.com/2005/04/25/international/middleeast/25marines.html?hp&ex=1114401600&en=27af79ca337a2ec9&ei=5094&partner=homepage

[FlemingsGhost]

1. Hey ... on the bright side, gays can't marry!

Suck it up, America. You voted for this shit.

[AnnitaR]

10. LOL! I tell my dumb ass sister that all the time!

She was one of those lovely two issue voters. Gay marriage and abortion.

Makes me sick.

[wakeme2008]

2. Hell of a good read

and why do theses people not have the equipment they need.

" Defense Department officials have said they favored Humvees over tanks in Iraq because they were less imposing to civilians."

Nice to be able to say that sitting in Washington DC.... :banghead:

[Rose Siding]

5. The Captain who spoke up for them gets relieved; Pace get promoted

:banghead:

[lyonn]

45. More Strykers

and fewer Humvees in the future was what I heard at some committee hearing. It was during the budget hearings when a senator, describing the need for more $$ for armor, etc. The reply was that the military was up to speed with the amour and was now looking to spend more on the Stryker. The amendment was voted down.

[annabanana]

3. How can we have put our kids in this horrible position?

This is the meaning of obscene. This is filth of the worst order. This is why we can NEVER let up the pressure.

[rodeodance]

7. "you go to war with the army you have"--Rummy echo

[rocktivity]

38. You go to war with an army that can WIN, Rummy!

Not only did you NOT do that, you got rid of anyone who told you that you didn't have the equipment or manpower to do what Bush wanted in Iraq. Let's not forget about the 350 TONS of ammunition has disappeared. And let's not forget your first tour of Iraq!



:headbang:
rocknation

[maddezmom]

4. this admin is more disgusting every minute

:(

[SlavesandBulldozers]

6. 4 more years!

USA! USA!

:cry:

[grytpype]

8. How horrible.

Bush is destroying the Marine Corps.

[WebeBlue]

9. TY for posting...can we speak out now on behalf of the troops?

I was stunned to read this article, since it is the troops themselves speaking out, and that is Significant!! It is a shot of inspiration to me as I find myself lagging in energy and some despair after the Santiago v Rumsfeld decision. When the troops themselves do the speaking out, it's way past time to listen. I am a military family speaking out, and breaking with the traditional military culture of silence; but the risks to me, personally, are far less than to the troops when they speak out.

We really, really need to get behind the soldiers when they do try to get the truth out there as it is an act of courage and deep concern for their comrades that causes them to break with the code. I'm passing the article along to my own networking groups...and thank you for posting it.

[GetTheRightVote]

11. This is a sad statement about our country and her soldiers' protection

:kick:

[magellan]

12. And they wonder why recruitment is down.

I am SO tired of reading about the lack of body and vehicle armor. Two years on, and BushCo STILL can't get their frikkin' shit together enough to PROPERLY EQUIP OUR TROOPS in Iraq, who OBVIOUSLY have been and continue to suffer for this administration's inaction.

When the HELL does this become a crime of negligence worthy of attention outside the Liberal sphere?!?!?

/rant

[PennyLane]

13. Just Got This Email Tonight

......from a friend doing her second TOD in Iraq:

Hello, everyone. I'm still doing okay here in Iraq. Yesterday, as I was riding in a vehicle, around 1100 a.m., I heard this big explosion not to far away(we hear explosions everyday, and we don't react, because we are used to it). I was like"there the insurgents go again, trying to kill us, or someone". I went to the MWR(center where we play games, watch movies, etc) around 1100 p.m., and all my friends just wasn't the same. These guys go out on missions everyday and get shot at and all kinds of stuff, they keep us safe, they capture and take down the bad guys. Well, SGT XXXXXX was killed in that explosion that I heard at 1100 a.m that morning. A VBIED(vehicle borne improvised exploding device), this is where the bad guys have a truck or car loaded with explosives and ram it right into the vehicle that you are riding in. There were 9 people in their vehicle, and the medics were pulling them out, and some of them were still on fire. My friend, Sgt XXXXX(the only black sniper in his Brigade) had beyond third degree burns all over his body and his neck was burned where he couldn't breathe on his own. The doctors would not let us see him, I guess that's how bad he looked. You know the bullet proof vest that we wear, with the heavy metal plates, well, those melted on him. That's a hell of an explosion to melt metal. Well, don't forget that that could have been any one of us here, but it was him, my friend SGT XXXXX, 22 years old with a wife and two kids. He put his life on the line everyday for his country, and he did just that. Please keep us in your prayers.
__________________________________________________

Everyone keep her and her company high on
your prayer list, that they all come home safe.



:banghead:

[saigon68]

16. THE PEOPLE WHO JOIN TODAY

Are really ignorant to think they aren't tools in the Bush Criminals plan to colonize the middle-east and steal its resources.

They are nothing more than mercenary tools of a plot hatched by Thugs and War Criminals.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Stuckinthebush]

21. Out of line

Saigon68 said "mercenary tools", not "mercenaries". He, of all people, should know what it means to be a soldier used as a tool for the wrong reason.

[saigon68]

24. Thank You

I never called them "willing mercenaries". They are mostly simple people used by Evil Neocons and the Hooligan Bush Criminals to commit various murders and War Crimes.

They are like the IQ 75 types (like Lynndie) at Abu Ghraib--- they are thrown away and left to fend for themselves.

[saigon68]

23. ADIOS

[DoYouEverWonder]

14. When are folks going to realize

that Bush and Rummie don't want to win this war. That's not what it's all about. They could care less who gets killed or hurt. They just want more. This is not about bringing peace to Middle East or Democracy to Iraq. It is about bringing Chaos to the region that will never end, so they can stuff their pockets full with the profits. That's what it's all about.

[Charon]

18. Realize

The Kennedys and the Johnsons don't want to win this war. That's not what it's all about. They could care less who gets killed or hurt. They just want more. This is not about bringing peace to Viet Nam
or Democracy to SE Asia. It is about bringing Chaos to the region that will never, end, so they can stuff their pockets full with profits. That's what it's all about.

[DoYouEverWonder]

19. It is rumored

that Kennedy was killed because he was planning to withdraw all the troops from Vietnam.

Funny, Bush Sr was in Dallas that day and he can't seemed to remember what he was doing. I was friggin 8 years old and I remember exactly what I was doing.

[Massachusetts]

15. Chickenhawk Headquarters........HOW?

http://www.nhgazette.com/news/chickenhawks/chickenhawk_headquarters/

[sidpleasant]

20. O'Reilly will claim "liberal journalists faked the Marines' complaints"

Remember the Guardsman who last year asked Rummy why his unit had to weld scrap metal on their Humvees for armor? His perfectly legitimate complaint and Rummy's stupid answer were quickly obscured by a right wing counter - attack claiming that the question had been planted by one of those unpatriotic liberal reporters. Watch for the same sh*t here.

[underpants]

26. "Why don't we hear all the GOOD NEWS about what the US is doing?"

That is one of the standard RW cries. I am sure that something has to be accomplished but that isn't the focus of this question-as you said they are trying to blame the media.....THEY HAVE THEIR OWN FREAKIN' NETWORK!!! Why don't THEY show us all the wonderful images? Or are their reporters scared to leave the hotel too?

[lyonn]

47. Fox needs to report all that good Iraqi news

Excellent point.

[quaoar]

22. Don't these whiny Marines realize

that you go to war with the necons you have, not the neocons you wish you had?

Lt. Sean J. Schickel remembers Captain Royer asking a high-ranking Marine Corps visitor whether the company would be getting more factory-armored Humvees. The official said they had not been requested and that there were production constraints, Lieutenant Schickel said.

Recalls Captain Royer: "I'm thinking we have our most precious resource engaged in combat, and certainly the wealth of our nation can provide young, selfless men with what they need to accomplish their mission. That's an erudite way of putting it. I have a much more guttural response that I won't give you."

Captain Royer was later relieved of command. General Mattis and Colonel Kennedy declined to discuss the matter. His first fitness report, issued on May 31, 2004, after the company's deadliest firefights, concluded, "He has single-handedly reshaped a company in sore need of a leader; succeeded in forming a cohesive fighting force that is battle-tested and worthy."


This is what happens when you complain about your men getting killed needlessly.

[indepat]

25. The neocon way of supporting the troops placed in harm's way ostensibly

to make the world safe for democracy?

[Imagevision]

27. US. Marine Capt. relieved of duty complaining of lack of armor

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/25/international/middleeast/25marines.html?ex=1272081600&en=9fd9721141c8d56e&ei=5089&partner=rssyahoo&emc=rss

Marine Capt. Kelly D. Royer took photos of Humvees in which his men died. He was removed from command, accused of being "dictatorial."

"We were sitting out in the open, an easy target for everybody," Cpl. Toby G. Winn of Centerville, Tex., said of the shortages. "We complained about it every day, to anybody we could. They told us they were listening, but we didn't see it."

<snip> Rumsfeld/Bush " We're doing all we can that is possible to make sure our troops are equipped with the best posible equipment" (02/19/03)

[bemildred]

28. Does this mean he doesn't have to "patrol" anymore?

We could get a lot of "complainers" with this sort of "punishment".

[Hobarticus]

33. At his rank, that's a career-killer...

The Captain knows his duty is to his Marines first, and he speaks up for them, and he's PUNISHED for it?

His career is over as he knows it.

This is total bullshit.

[dhinojosa]

29. Self deleting my toungue in cheek commentary.,

[MindPilot]

30. Some Marines had to create carboard mockups of themselves

to mount in guard positions because they didn't have enough troops to actually guard the position.
This is being told by returning Camp Pendelton Marines -- story on the radio this am -- sorry no link.

[fryguy]

35. that's in the OP's article - n/t

[MindPilot]

36. I replied before I read

hanging head in shame...

[tanyev]

46. I hope they put photos of

Dubya, Cheney and Rumsfeld on those mockups. It would be as close as those men ever got to fighting in a war.

[MindPilot]

31. isn't accusing a Marine Capt of being "dictitorial"

kind of like accusing Ricky Rudd of driving too fast?

[fryguy]

32. doing all they can to support our troops???

is that why the marines had to use cardboard cutouts and hotwore trucks in the middle of a fire fight?

<snip>

The unit had less than half the troops who are now doing its job in Ramadi, and resorted to making dummy marines from cardboard cutouts and camouflage shirts to place in observation posts on the highway when it ran out of men. During one of its deadliest firefights, it came up short on both vehicles and troops. Marines who were stranded at their camp tried in vain to hot-wire a dump truck to help rescue their falling brothers. That day, 10 men in the unit died.

<more>

and yet shrub continues to wrap himself in the flag and the guise of being a military commander while he, and the rest of the chicken-hawks, turn their collective backs on the soldiers they claim to support . . .

[rodeodance]

34. well that was quick!!

[0007]

41. This country has become so sickening with stories like this

Marine Captain trying to do the right thing. That I'm surprised that we not having a civil war.

[Allenberg]

37. I can't wait until may 16th

which is my first day as a civillian after six years in the Air Force. I'm dedicating myself to bringing my brothers and sisters-in-arms home.

[emc]

39. address for further reading

Check this out--http://pub39.bravenet.com/forum/3267244940/show/384186

Its a blog concerning Capt Royer----

hope Ive got the address right---------

This guy took a typical screwing for opening his mouth---

Bush if he wants to investigate, better enlist his wife to go over there and check things out---its too dangerious for him---might fall on his face exiting the plane---

[KansDem]

40. This is utterly disgusting...

...tell their story, one they say was punctuated not only by a lack of armor...

How long did it take for Detroit to switch from manufacturing Buicks to tanks for WWII? Overnight? Yet, the US has been in this war for two years now (half the time of US involvement in WWII) and we still haven't manufactured enough of this one type of battlefield accessory?

to

overnight, however...


Uh, yeah, sure...give us a little time, will 'ya? Uh, leave us your number and we'll call ya after we manufacture some, oh, say, next year...(?)

Bush and his ilk should be brought up on AT LEAST charges of incompetence...

[sidpleasant]

44. We didn't switch from making Buicks to making that tank!

That's a German Tiger tank in your picture.

[KansDem]

48. I betcha we could've if we had wanted to!

We could have done anything! The point is, our industrial might was up to the job. We saw the need and we did it. And we did it through hard work and sacrifice!

Unlike the present situation which sends our troops into battle without the necessary gear and, it seems, dragging its feet the whole way. Even when it becomes apparent our troops need this armor...

Oh, and thanks for the clarification...:hi:

[Tsiyu]

42. But, but, My SUV has a ribbon on it!

That shows I REALLY care!

Your average Bush* supporter doesn't give a damn about these kids and what they're going through. They'll send their hard-earned cash to their Repuke causes and sit in church and talk about how much God hates fags and how much they love life all the while their fellow Americans are in hell, watching one another die so the Repukes can get some more tax breaks.

They. Just. Don't. Care.

[democrank]

43. But, but.....

I thought the mission was accomplished a long time ago. This is enough to make my blood boil.