Used Prius prices like new (Toyota Hybrid)

[RamboLiberal]

http://money.cnn.com/2005/04/11/Autos/used_prius/index.htm?cnn=yes

Demand for the gas-electric hybrid Prius is so great that some used Priuses are selling for more than the list price for a new one, a report said on Monday.

Buyers who want to avoid the typical two-month waiting period for the hot Toyota model are willing to pay the premium, according a study conducted by Kelly Blue Book and Harris Interactive.

Waits at some dealerships can be considerably longer. The market for the used Prius is so strong that some owners are trying to sell them for more than they paid for them.

The survey said that 8 percent of the consumers considered hybrid vehicles in March, twice as much as 4 percent in February. It also said if gas prices reach $3 per gallon 77 percent of car shoppers will seriously consider a more fuel efficient vehicle.

[Tux]

1. I need one now

That is the way to go. If I can get one, I'll remind SUV owners how often I have to refuel and ask them how many miles they can get before refueling.

[physioex]

2. Finally....

People are chasing after a car that is worthy. However with all the drawbacks of a hybrid, I think they VW TDI is still a better choice....

[Rex_Goodheart]

9. Our choice came down to the Prius vs. the Jetta TDI

We went with the Jetta. I still think the Prius technology is too new to be trusted, and the Jetta was cheaper.

The Jetta is also kinda fun to drive. I can imagine that the 1.8T version of the car must be really peppy.

[tridim]

13. I want a TDI too

But people tell me they're much dirtier than gasoline cars. I've also been told that the batteries in hybrids have to be replaced a few times and are extremely expensive.

I would kill to have a brand new 91 Honda CRX that gets 45mpg. Those cars were awesome. I can't figure out why they ever stopped making them. Probably the SUV craze.

[physioex]

21. Yes I remeber the CRX...

And it's reviews for high mileage. There are plenty used going around and has become a cult favorite in the tuner market.

On Edit: The TDI can burn biodiesel as alternative. And diesel engines hav become more quieter and less pollution than the past....

[tridim]

27. I sold my 91 about 6 years ago

Gigantic mistake on my part. I've been looking for another good one ever since then. Hard to do now that the Ricers have bought and destroyed most of them. I'd buy one in a second if Honda re-released them.

[physioex]

32. I tend to agree...

The best cars Japan ever produced where in the late 80's to early 90's. With their low intial cost, quality, and ease of maintenance.

[HamstersFromHell]

24. The version of the CRX that got the great mileage...

was an absolute piece of crap. (The CRX HF)

Honda can do some wonderful engineering, but in this case, it was way under-engineered just to get good mileage numbers.

Lighter weight, slim skirted 2 ring pistons in it allowed for horrible oil control and wear. Most of them lived less than 100k miles, when the regular CRX engine was good for 150-200k with normal maintenance.


on edit: finally remembered what CRX model was the junker.

[tridim]

28. I had the mid-range model

Not the HF, not the SI.. It was the best model, getting about 37mpg. I miss it.

[TorchTheWitch]

48. That's what I had too

I think the mid-version was the "DX". Only a little over $10k, drove like a rocket, lasted nearly forever, and you could cram so MUCH stuff in it! I actually moved all my furniture in that car... even the sofa (well, yeah, most of the sofa hung out the back, but it FIT!).

Damn, I REALLY miss that car!

[tridim]

51. I got you beat.

I moved a full size pinball machine in mine, and towed an entire apartments worth of stuff from Kansas City to NYC and back to Denver. They just don't make em like they used to. :P

[bunkerbuster1]

62. Had me the CRX Si. Amazing how our perceptions change.

At the time, it had a 108hp 1.6 16valve engine (normally aspirated) pulling a ~2500# car, and it felt quick. 0-60 was around 8.5 seconds.

And yet it got great mileage. EPA numbers were 29city/36highway, but they were more pessimistic back then--I almost always managed low/mid 30s around town in that car, without babying it at all.

Nowadays, that power-to-weight ratio has been matched or surpassed by base versions just about any econobox.

Anyway, just to continue the stroll down memory lane--yeah, that thing hauled ass, and it also hauled. I put all kinds of things into the cargo hold--trees, furniture--and it was incredibly reliable.

Had the body not started to rot around the rear wheel wells after 12 years of ownership, I'd probably still have it today as my daily driver.

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. We have a hybrid Honda Civic

we took the 100,000 mile guarantee on it, or ten years... the battery is included. You think they would have this if the battery needed replacement that often? THINK

As a honda hybrid owner I cannot be happier, truth be told.

[Stella_Artois]

75. I'm sorry but you were misinformed

I've had a number of TDI cars and there is absolutley no difference in day to day driving and owning. None whatsoever. When you are crusing along in 5th gear, you don't even know what sort of engine it is.

Dirtier ? I don't understand it. As in emissions ? Smoke from the back ?

IIRC the thing about the batteries is a myth too.

[drm604]

10. What are the drawbacks?

I've heard about difficulties with snow. Does anyone here have any experience with that? Any other problems?

[physioex]

23. I can't say it's bad one way or another in the snow....

But I think a careful driver would do well even in the snow. What I was talking about is the fact these cars come with an intially higher price and the lack of dealers in the willingness to negotiate. A hybrid is also more mechanically complex than a regular automobile. Most grease monkeys aren't aware of how to fix these cars which might mean a trip to the dealership. Also if a battery pack were to go bad, this would be a large expense. You might be better of with a fuel efficient with an economy 4 cylinder car....

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. Ok negotiation, we went to dealership with Internet Offer

this is the offer from their fleet manager.... we got a hybrid, taxes and all that (did I mention the 10 year \ 100,000 mile guarantee... for less than 24K

You just need to know how to aproach the problem.

Oh and we have already saved quite a bit on gas, hubby takes it to work, he drives forty miles on average per day, we gas it once a week. the truck I drive it for groceries and things like that, I manage to push it to ten days... double the cost, double the tank half the actual range

[physioex]

50. Certainly, I am not against hybrids.....

Like all new technologies, I would wait till it becomes more mature and the costs begin to decrease. And I hope more manufactures come on board with these types of vechicles.

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. Oh trust me, they have matured quite a bit

I feel silly to be pushing this but we saw the first production model at a car show in Honoulu in 2000, the battery pack took the whole back seat

The battery pack on our 2005 civic only prevents me from abating the seat.

In 2000 we said, nope, not until this gets a tad more mature... in 2005 we woud not touch a US Escape since that was a Gen 1 Power plant, while the Honda Civic has a Third Gen power plant... the tech is actually here... but many folks are still leary, and the conventional engine companies love people for it... if they coudl... they woudl have never released this tech...

[pokercat999]

59. grease monkeys?

I'm not trying to be a smart ass or anything but next time you need a mechanic or automotive technician I wouldn't call him/her a GREASE MONKEY! You obviously have no idea of the training involved or cost of tools and equipment involved in becoming a professional.

I've worked with "grease monkeys" for over 30 years if you knew most of them (the guys) you would want your daughter to marry one. As a group the are without a doubt some of the nicest, most giving and honest people in America. Bad apples sure, but the % of bad apples compared to say CEO's or POTUS are minuscule in comparison and most of the dishonest ones become that way due to predatory practices of management.

And no, "grease monkey" is not a term of endearment.

As an aside, the number of female automotive technicians is growing. They have been well accepted into the "family" and with hard work and dedication they can reach the highest levels of their chosen profession.

[HamstersFromHell]

26. I would think that the big snow problem would be...

...unless Toyota's using some form of traction control, an electric motor makes full torque at 0 rpm, so it might be way tricky to pull off from a stop w/o spinning the tires uselessly.

[trogdor]

60. Civic HX coupe.

44 MPG highway, on gasoline, for under 14 grand (if you don't need air conditioning).

The LX claims 38 MPG.

[tridim]

3. And those of us who can't afford a new hybrid

get stuck paying more Bush gasoline tax, apparently the result of high demand caused by Hummer drivers. Joy! :mad:

[kliljedahl]

4. Who are still getting a tax cut

for buying one. Go figure.


http://www.kliljedahl.net

[Dover]

18. Buy a VW Golf. A great deal.

..

[SoCalDem]

67. Gas price should be indexed by vehicle

People who drive efficient, lower-polluting vehicles should pay less:)

[HamstersFromHell]

5. Above list for used is nothing new for any "car of the month"

The Prius joins the PT Cruiser, Honda S2000, the "new" Beetle and others in recent years that were selling faster than the maker could produce 'em, and in every case, there's always "speculators" with cash who'll get on the waiting lists to buy just to turn it quickly as a "used" vehicle to make a quick buck.

Most dealers are prohibited by the auto makers from selling a "new" vehicle for more than MSRP plus taxes, tags and documentation fees, so the more "creative" dealers get around this by not floor planning their high demand (waiting list) inventory, and purchasing the vehicles outright themselves (so it's now "titled", hence "used"), then running a few hundred miles on them so they are now a "used" vehicle and they can charge whatever above list the market will bear.

Harley Davidsons are often priced way above list because of yuppies who think they need 'em to relive their lost youth or because it's become a modern day status symbol. Ten years ago (with a year-long wait for some models) $13,900 MSRP Harleys (with 100 miles on 'em) were being snapped up at $25,000+ just to avoid the wait.

[Technowitch]

6. Kewl! We have an '04 Prius.

Best car I've ever owned, too.

[Selteri]

7. Not even mildly surprised.

Not after asking about the wait on a Prius and being told, "Well, we still are taking orders for next years model." in November.

[msongs]

8. I am trying to get rid of my Honda Civic Hybrid.................

it is cheap little car with a fancy hi tech power system. after I drive for 30 miles my leg gets sore. it has the same crappy seat as the cheapest Civic and the dealer refused to give me the better one that comes with the highest price regular Civic. they told me I had to get an after-market seat (buy it from some place elese) plus it has more vibrations and rattles than my 51,000 miles pick up which means the pieces and parts are fastened together in a shoddy way.

Under no circumstances would I recommend a civic hybrid. it is not worth the $21,000 they jack you for.

I am trying to sell it for about 19,500 which is the price for a used one in local dealers. it only has 2100 miles on it.

Hondas suck.

Msongs

[avenueb]

12. scion

I'm looking to save some money with a Scion Xa. Anyone have experience with it?

[Voltaire99]

20. We tested one. Very disappointing.

The Scion Xa was noticeably loud above 40 mph--a real irritant on the freeway. The interior seemed cheap, too, but that was less important.

Back it went, and we're still looking.

[Toucano]

66. You'll have to write a better ad than this! LOL!

Just kidding. Thanks for the review.

[msongs]

68. the hybrid technology worked great...45mpg --the civic part is...

what is wrong. everything ran well, great mileage, cd and air conditioner are wunnerful....just a crappy little shell of a car.

the prius was designed ground up as a hybrid, the civic is just a slap job.

Msongs

[benddem]

11. also have a 2004 prius

just wish they'd find a way to teach me to use the bluetooth phone and the destination thing.

[Catshrink]

14. How much is the income tax benefit on a hybrid?

[ClarkUSA]

22. $1500

[Dover]

15. If the market for Prius has been so strong since their introduction

4 years ago, why hasn't Toyota significantly increased production/distribution? Seems like they could sell as many as they could produce.

I looked at used Prius's in the classified ads and it's true. Some were selling their used vehicles for more than they paid for them.

[physioex]

33. Wrong question to ask Toyota...

Where are the big three in this picture? Ohh that's right they are advertising that big Hummer and "Hemi Powered Ram". Come on, you should be demanding the same of the US based automakers....

[Dover]

35. It wasn't a demand. It was a business question. Seems it would be

very good for business to have more production. Curious why they haven't done it. Perhaps there are limits I'm not aware of...

[physioex]

36. I assume it's limited manufacturing capabilities......

One manufacturer cannot supply a vechile that the market demands. The problem isn't the ability of Toyota to produce enough vechicles....

Really in the past few years US auto manufacturers have been breaking even if not selling cars at a loss. The huge profits they made were on the sales of SUVs..... With the drop in SUV sales, so go the profits....

[nadinbrzezinski]

54. Ford Escape Hybrid (EOM)

[Tesha]

63. The batteries appear to be the limiting factor.

> why hasn't Toyota significantly increased production/distribution?

The batteries appear to be the limiting factor; the vendor is only
geared-up to make so many of them and it will take time to ramp-up
farther.

Tesha

[hatrack]

65. They already have, doubling production from 50,000 to 100,000

They're also looking at opening a US hybrid plant. The decision is supposed to come this June or July.

[lovuian]

16. My friend has the Honda Hybrid and she loves it!!!

She's been on TV and every time she gases people ask her about it!!!

She was making a statement against War for Oil!!!
She hasn't regretted it!!! She knew right when Bush got in office Gas Prices would skyrocket and she was so right on!!!

[Dover]

17. Toyota will be out with their hybrid SUV Highlander this Fall

Don't know how gas efficient they will be. They are the same technology as the Prius, but have (I think) two batteries instead of one. And of course, more room than the prius.

[Chovexani]

53. We saw it at the NY Auto Show last week

My mom's in the market for new wheels and I've been trying to convince her to get a Prius; she wants an SUV mainly because all her friends have them (don't ask...she's a good liberal but sometimes Earth logic just escapes her).

I literally dragged her over to Toyota's section of the floor and she completely fell in love with the hybrid Highlander. I don't remember the exact specs, it's not as good on gas economy as the Prius (duh), however it is still pretty freakin' impressive. It's not obnoxiously huge, either; it has the space my mom likes, without looking like some of the space shuttles we've seen around town. It's looking like we have a decent compromise.

A final observation on the auto show as a whole: everyone and their damn brother has a hybrid now. Seriously. Damn near every other company was displaying some kind of hybrid model, and not all of them were funky concept cars. It's very much looking like the next big thing in vehicles.

[Dover]

19. Has anyone ordered their Prius online rather than at a dealership?

Curious how that works and what the drawback/advantages are. I wish the dealerships would at least keep one on the lot to test drive and see first hand. I have not even had an opportunity to look inside one.

[RamboLiberal]

25. On a hybrid I saw a PA Plate 54 MPG

Got a chuckle and was a bit envious of that.

And yesterday while at Toy N' Train Museum in WV saw a Corvair club drive in with about 10 Corvairs - one sported an Ohio plate - F Nader

[truthisfreedom]

29. 35 MPG for a hybrid VS 33 MPG for a BMW Cooper Mini? these guys had

better get their acts together. i bet the Mini outperforms the hybrid anyway... 1.6 liter with such a wide wheelbase that it can corner at 45MPH... and the price is about the same.

[physioex]

31. Not quite that simple....

Strictly speaking in terms of MPG the hybrid might come out ahead in typical driving. If you are stuck in Seattle traffic for an hour I would say the hybrid does better since it would shut the engine off and turn on recharge the batteries when needed. A Mini might not do as well in this situation. If you were driving continuously at 65mph maybe the Mini would do better with less weight.....

[salin]

58. two weekend trips in a row - on hilly roads - got more than 50mpg

in the Prius. I'll take the prius over the mini, thank you.

[seemunkee]

74. Not with the S

I get 27 in city driving in my Cooper S.

[wschalle]

30. Mines nice.

I got one for 13K.... 2002 its great.

[AuntiBush]

34. Sounds very interesting...

But, will most American's give-up their SUV'S?

See it everyday... 1 person driving SUV'S. Sorry fellow SUV owners, but when I see 1 person in them, morn/noon/night/weekdays & weekends, it more then ticks me off.

Neighbors own half a car lot of them. They could care less.

If I could afford one, I'd buy 1 tomorrow.

[Dover]

38. Hybrid SUV's are coming out this year....Toyota, Ford and Lexus

So people will be able to make the transition if their only hesitation is about size/look.

[eriffle]

37. I hate to say it...

Right now, and in the near future hybrids aren't worth the added cost. If everyone today, and I mean everyone, bought a hybrid yes demand for gas would go down along with prices, however two mid-size models of hybrids, neither domestic, are going to cut it. Here are the number of months it would take to regain the cost difference of your average car vs. a hybrid assuming 1,000 mi/month

@ $3/gal Prius Vs.
Camry 4cyl - 59.2
Accord EX 4cyl - 1.52
Ford Five Hundred - 12
Mazda 6i - 48.1

@ $3/gal Accord Hybrid Vs.
Camry 4cyl - 796
Accord EX 4cyl - 569.4
Accord EX 6cyl - 123
Ford Five Hundred - 270
Mazda 6i - 378.6
Chevrolet Impala - 144.7

@ $4/gal Prius Vs.
Camry 4cyl - 44.4
Accord EX 4cyl - 1.1
Ford Five Hundred - 9
Mazda 6i - 36

@ $4/gal Accord Hybrid Vs.
Camry 4cyl - 597
Accord EX 4cyl - 427
Accord EX V6 - 92
Ford Five Hundred - 202.6
Mazda 6i - 284
Chevrolet Impala - 108.5

I gathered all my information from edmunds.com and used the MSRP of comparable models. I took the EPA fuel mileage numbers for city and highway and averaged them together, because I personally drive 50% hwy and 50% city. These numbers do not take into account federal, state, or local tax, insurance, or any other incentives available for choosing a hybrid car. I have been a Toyota and Honda salesman, and yes I'm excited about hybrid technology. It works as well if not better than it's traditional brethren. However, with the Accord Hybrid and it's $30k pricetag it is more statement than rational choice as even if gas hits $4/gal it would still take you roughly 8 years to regain to addtional cost over the Accord V6. The Prius is a decent choice, but it is smaller than the other vehicles in its class and the american market does value interior space when choosing their vehicles. Government incentives at the time of purchase would help in the greater usage of hybrid vehicles because as of now the price difference is greater than the gas savings.

[physioex]

39. I tend to agree with this article...

I have no problems with someone with a family of four driving a Camry. It's a great all around car and serves the environmental and economy needs...

[Dover]

40. Don't forget to include the environmental benefits in your valuations.

IF everyone bought hybrids today, how would that benefit the enviroment?

[eriffle]

41. Well, what do you mean by environmental benefits?

See, there's an inherent problem with hybrids, they shut their engines off. The main thing that cleans your exhaust gases is your catalytic converter. The catalytic beads need to be hot in order to work best, since hybrids aren't always runing their exhaust over the beads the beads don't get as hot as usual and they don't work as well. Toyota helped this by routing the coolant plumbing around the catalytic converter before heading to the radiator, and it helped, but not as much as an always on car. So, even though less exhaust gas comes out of a hybrid, it is dirtier than a non-hybrid.

I'm a fan of hybrids, but my point is that I, like most americans, can't afford to buy a hybrid just to make a statement. We need to get people who don't need SUV's out of them. Getting them out of SUV's and into economical 4 cylinder cars is a good intermediate step.

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. Remember the Honda Accord has been hit

for shoddy MPG, the Cyvic has not

[Dover]

42. 10 BEST FUEL SAVING CARS

...the most economical cars do not always fit everyone's needs. The Honda Insight, to use an extreme example, produces astounding gas mileage from its hybrid two-seater/city car/semi-sports coupe shape. In practical terms, however, the Insight has limited uses. Rather than simply list the cars that use the least fuel according to EPA ratings we've chosen instead to present ten automobiles that combine fuel saving with what consumers really want in a car.


http://cars.about.com/od/helpforcarbuyers/a/10best_fuel_2.htm

[Ms_Mary]

69. Thank you, I'm doing some car shopping this week.

[dArKeR]

46. Good time to be a Costco member! I believe the price is set once a year

so you will only pay that price if buying through the Costco program.

[dArKeR]

47. The Scion A and B and the Toyota Matrix are good buys too.

[screembloodymurder]

57. I asked. No hybrids available.

Costco only sells stuff they get on the cheap. No real choice.

[dArKeR]

72. Every model is available through Costco as far as I know. It's not

a selective model program. It's any model the dealer sells. That's what the Fleet Manager at Toyota said. Costco sometimes has vehicles infront of their store just for advertising. You still go to the dealers and can purchased any model at the contract price.

[tmooses]

49. Are the Shrubbites doing away with tax breaks for Hybrids?

n/t

[Dover]

55. Volvo diesel - 48 mpg

Anyone have any experience with this one?

December 24, 2004
Volvo Introduces Its Most Fuel-Efficient Engine Yet

Volvo has extended downward the engine range for its new S40 and V50 compact models (launched in 2003) with the addition of 1.6-liter engines in both gasoline and diesel versions. The 1.6-liter diesel delivers an average fuel consumption of 4.9 liters/100 km (48 mpg US) and is the most fuel-efficient engine ever offered by Volvo Cars.

The inline-4, 1.6-liter diesel engine is a turbocharged unit with variable turbo geometry. Both the cylinder block and head are of aluminium to minimize weight and fuel consumption. The new diesel develops a maximum output of 81 kW (110 bhp) and a torque of 240 Nm, providing acceleration from 0 to 100 km/h in 12 seconds (0-60 mph in 11.4 seconds).

The new gasoline engine is a four-cylinder, 1.6-liter, normally aspirated unit. The engine output is 74 kW (100 bhp) and the torque 150 Nm....>

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2004/12/volvo_introduce.html

[The Animator]

56. From what I understand, the only drawback to a hybrid vehicle...

... is maintenance. Since the cars have not yet been manufactured in sufficient quantities to need a large spare parts market, parts, when needed, are extremely expensive. Add in the fact that there are very few mechanics with the training required to maintain and service these vehicles.

This is the same problem that has plagued Mercedes and BMW owners in the past. I've heard they are great cars, but it's pretty much the same deal when it comes to maintenance. You couldn't just run into NAPA, or Discount Auto when you needed to replace your alternator, you needed to take it to the dealer, which was always expensive, and even if you did manage to find the parts on your own, if you fixed it yourself you negated the warranty.

However, this boom in demand for the hybrid vehicles can only speed up the process by which the parts and maintenance needs of their owners transform from a scarce commodity to much cheaper mainstream industry.

I find it facinating that all the eco-talk in the world couldn't make people give up their gas guzlers for an alternative that was more environment friendly, but the wallet gets the every time. In the late sixties early seventies, the bigger and heavier your car was the better, who cares if it sucked up forty gallons to the mile, gas was cheap and you were cool, cause your car was big. Then came all that trouble with OPEC and the fuel shortages hit everyone right the nuts. Thus the humble little Voltzwagen Beetle went from being laughed at to being the biggest automotive superstar of the decade, and launching an entire generation of economy cars.

[BiggJawn]

61. What is the lifespan and replacement cost of the battery?

Since if I owned one, I would keep it longer than the customary 3-year lease (I buy 'em and wear 'em out)THAT is a real factor in my desire to chase one down and pay an inflated price for it.

[coffeenap]

70. According to my Prius-loving friend ( the one who convinced me to

get mine) there is no good info on battery life because they haven't had to replace them yet. I LOVE MY PRIUS!! It can outrun semis--going from 60 to 82 in no time--really. (It also has a DU sticker on the back)

[BiggJawn]

71. Guess I'll let you guys be the Pioneers, then...

I do find it odd that Toyota has no projections on battery life. They had to have SOME idea when they set the warranty period on it.

Still wonder how many $$$$$ for a replacement...

[masmdu]

64. *Not *helping the Enviroment by buying New Prius

You'd be doing your pocketbook and the environment a favor by buying a used car that gets good milage because the biggest burden on the environment comes from the PRODUCTION of a vehicle not in the OPPERATION. I've heard figures like 75% of the resources, energy used, and pollution created are a result of the PRODUCTION PROCESS!...buy used!

[parkia00]

73. How about a Mercdes?

A good cheap alternative is to buy a 1983-1985 Mercedes Benz 300D Turdodiesel. They only cost a few thousand and those things are built like a tank! The engine with proper maintainence can easily last 300k. They get good milage too. I drove down from San Francisco to Santa Barbare with one tank of diesel using Highway 101. Comes is Coupe, Sedan or Estate. Spare parts are easily found. Many are still on the roads and all over Europe. Parts are still being made by OEM manufacturers.

They are simplier oldr cars with less electronics and gizmoes. No ABS or airbag however. They drive great and there is really nothing quite like the feel of driving a "true" Mercedes at highway sppeds. Nothing feels like it. I can only describe it as confident. Sorry I just don't like the newer Mercedes. They feel too plasticky like any other econo car. And don't you just love the solid sound the door makes when closing? Acceleration is not the greatest but once you have built the speed up, travelling at 70-80 mph is no problem.

I had an 85, the last year made and absolutely loved the car. No problem, no rust and engine was so smooth (for a diesel). Had to sell it when I moved though. Really was a loss. Seriously thinking of purchasing another and have it completely restored.