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Griffy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-05 03:45 PM
Original message
Doctors: Shiavo tapes dont tell story
I was just so happy to see some common sense.. I wish every American that sees the tape reads this article... Please rate it up too!

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050...


By ALLEN G. BREED and MATT CRENSON, Associated Press Writers

PINELLAS PARK, Fla. - They say film doesn't lie, but does that mean it tells the truth? The public sees fleeting videotaped images of Terri Schiavo, appearing to many to turn toward her mother's voice and smile. They hear what sound like moans and laughter. They watch her head move up and down, seemingly following the progress of a brightly colored Mickey Mouse balloon. And often they ask: How could anyone conclude but that she is aware of her surroundings?

The answer lies not so much within Schiavo's brain as in the minds of those who observe her. As social beings, humans are hard-wired to examine another's face for clues to what the person behind it is thinking. They naturally associate vocal tones with specific moods. They detect meaningful words in nonsense utterances.

<snip>

But all of those apparent signs of awareness are the product of a brain so damaged that by medical definition it has no capability of thought, no sensory awareness, no sense of its own existence in the world.

In Schiavo's condition, only the most primitive part of the brain survives. That region, known as the brain stem, merely sustains the vital functions of breathing, heart rate, sleep-wake cycles and primitive reflexes such as coughing and blinking.

"I think the term should be permanent unconsciousness," Schneiderman said.

<snip>





Imagine that.. the world is complicated.. and the truth is in the details! The problem is where you get your facts, help your friends and family get truth! I feel this Schiavo case clearly demonstates how people disagree not because we are so different, but because we are being feed different streams of info, and the propagandist are purposly feuling the fires between Americans to further their corperate and idealogical causes. The 4th estate is gone.. the blogs are picking up some of the slack and investigating, Progressive talk and Air America Radio are out there, we are growing!



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deadparrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-05 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
1. Rated a 5. nt
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Demit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-05 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
2. I suspect the stories now will have the purpose of winding the public down
After whipping them up in a frenzy, in the hopes of influencing the outcome, they see the courts have withstood the onslaught, stood firm on the rule of law; the media has now been charged with the job of getting people ready for the inevitable denouement. Thus the release of "second thoughts" info--or what the media in all responsibilty should have been doing in the first place, educating people. What slime they are.

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Norbert Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-05 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
3. Some pro-life say she can be rehabilited. Why is she in a hospice then?
Edited on Sat Mar-26-05 03:54 PM by Norbert
I feel for the Schindlers but they aren't facing up to reality.

BTW, Rated a 5.
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ElectroPrincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-05 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
4. Exactly, she has only a functioning brain stem ...
If I hadn't had a research background physiological psychology, it would be tempting to conclude that her utterances were "cognitive" (emanating from the cerebral cortex) instead of "reflexive."

Someone noting the movement of the "Venus fly-trap" may be callous but more accurate in emphasizing the fact that Terri does not process information within her higher brain centers, i.e., any point above the brain stem.

It's sick how so may people have been drawn in and "used" when respected neurologists who've studied this woman extensively have ALL concluded that she is in a persistent vegetative state.

Unfortunately, for fame and fortune, even highly educated people will sell out their moral principles and testify what equates to "lies" instead of solid scientific findings.

What else should we expect in Bush-World? Where if you massively screw up our blessed country, Dub-ya gives you the "Metal of Freedom." I'm still pinching myself at times ... I always knew that parts of bureaucracy were inept but I'm frightened that it's gravitated to the highest office of our Land.

Why not lie, steal and cheat? After all, that's the way our ruling class (Government, Wall Street, Big Business, etc.) behave and it proves to make them even more wealthy and powerful.

God Bless that Mean Green! /sarcasm off



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Griffy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-05 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. so true... they are crooks and behave as such.. in fact..
I would be SHOCKED if they DIDN'T rig the election... I'm still suprised to meet good dems that still give bush the benifit of the doubt, I dony get it.. its pure denial!

Spread truth! ;)
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-05 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
5. Excellent story - good, reasoned, objective medical perspectives.
Required reading for those of us who have to refute arguments that Terri Schiavo is alive! Alive! And responsive!!! She's not. She can't be. She won't ever be again. It's over. She's not even there anymore. It's just a shell.

Good find. Thanks for posting this! I'm keeping a copy.
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-05 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
6. Yet CNN plays these videos and photos in a continuous loop it seems
I tried watching an interview on CNN with a doctor from NYU, after the lawyer for Micheal Shiavo gave his press conference. I couldn't make it more than a minute or two into the show, because they had this loop of photos of Mrs. Shiavo going all the time. It is distracting, meant to arouse the emotions and suppress the reason I suppose. It almost seems pornographic.

The press conference was good though - a very impressive lawyer and person in many ways.
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Griffy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-05 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. It is.. ALL TV "news" is corporate owned.. they no longer serve..
the people... the 4th estate is dead, WE must pick up the torch and take it to our friends and family. I personally have been burning DVDs with documentaries I think people need to see... alot from Sundance. Like Unprecedented, which lays out clearly the fraud in FL. during 2000. Uncovered, and Unconstitutional on the war in Iraq and the Patriot act. I am working on others... don't wait for people to find out on their own. We the bloggers are a strong force today, especially if we take what we learn here into the real world around us, we are the pamphleteers of the 21st century!

.. and support progressive talk radio!
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-05 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. I agree with all of your points. n/t
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-05 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
8. this is rather crude----
she is not a human anymore she`s more a "reptile"-her reptilian brain is still functioning.god will these people just let her die with dignity.
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-05 06:51 PM
Response to Original message
11. so in other words her grifter parents willfully manipulated the tapes
to con the courts and the public into believing their lies. they are nothing but despicable con artists who have exploited the tragic situation of their own daughter's living death to bilk the public and gratify their own twisted need for attention, sympathy, and lots of cash. may they rot in hell forever, they are scum.

oh and by the way, does this article lay to rest the ridiculous notion that she is merely "disabled"??
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Griffy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-27-05 02:47 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. kick.. nt
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PittLib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-27-05 03:55 AM
Response to Original message
13. A quote from The Most Rev. Donald W. Wuerl, bishop of the Diocese of ...
Pittsburgh:
"The media reports, both electronic and print, on the condition of Terri Schiavo indicate that she is seriously impaired but aware of her surroundings and capable of responding to some stimuli, particularly pain. On the one hand are those who approve of the recent removal of her feeding tube, which has terminated her nutrition and hydration and which will bring about, since she is still aware, an excruciatingly painful death. On the other hand are those who argue that she must be allowed to continue to receive basic human care a care that is obligatory to every human being."

Apparently he's been listening to Frist ... and only Frist.

Oh yeah ... I wrote a response to this.
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-27-05 04:11 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Perhaps her continued tube feeding would cause excruciating pain.
How would he know either way?
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Griffy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-27-05 04:26 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Frankly, If she was aware, shes crazy by now!
I just shudder to imagine what it would be like if she was aware on some level, unable to control ANY physical control (even blinking or eye direction) if she could hear and understand what said she knows she has very little brain left... this is just the wrost nightmare, I pray for her to go peacefully, the torture is almost over!

Thankfully for my sanity all the facts point to her having no awareness left...

I will note that the Husband will need our support in the coming months!
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-27-05 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. I agree.
Remember the movie The Elephant Man? The scene where the doctor realizes that Joseph Merrick was not mentally defective but rather very intelligent. The doctor's sudden realiztion that Joseph was fully aware of all the indignities of his life but powerless to do anything about it horrified him.

IF Teri is still inside that shell of a body, she is probably nearly insane with no way of conveying it.
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Window Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-27-05 04:20 AM
Response to Original message
15. Excellent assessment.
Rated.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-27-05 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
17. Ah, the wonders of modern medicine!
Edited on Sun Mar-27-05 11:37 AM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
"That region, known as the brain stem, merely sustains the vital functions of breathing, heart rate, sleep-wake cycles and primitive reflexes such as coughing and blinking"

What? No mention of smiling. Oh, I forgot.

"The answer lies not so much within Schiavo's brain as in the minds of those who observe her. As social beings, humans are hard-wired to examine another's face for clues to what the person behind it is thinking. They naturally associate vocal tones with specific moods. They detect meaningful words in nonsense utterances".

Silly old us!

<snip>

"But all of those apparent signs of awareness are the product of a brain so damaged that by medical definition it has no capability of thought, no sensory awareness, no sense of its own existence in the world".

But I loved that "'apparent' signs" of something as incredibly subtle as a smile. And not engendered mark you normally, but apparently randomly and chaotically by a terminally damaged mind. A billions-to- one simulacrum of a loving, joyful smile.. engendering crazed flights of fancy in the minds of the great unwashed.

How fortunate we are to be vouchsafed the definitively inerrant intuitions of a materialist. He doesn't believe in intuition, himself, yet he wants us to believe he can intuit the quality of her thinking! Oh, sorry. He must have measured it under laboratory conditions! Definitely, a giant step forward in medicine.

I would also remind the poster that "by medical definition", slaves who wanted to escape to freedom were deemed by the medical Establishment of the day, to be suffering from a disease. I forget the formal designation. And there is ample evidence that, in terms of wisdom, modern physicians are as mixed a bag as their predecessors. Some just as brilliant, and others just as daft. And eminent status and accreditations in their fields are no guarantee of the most elementary wisdom.
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-27-05 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. This article states that smiling is a lower brain function
"Because Schiavo's brain stem has remained largely intact, however, certain automatic body functions--sleeping and waking, breathing, metabolizing nutrients and others--are proceeding. Blinking, startling in response to a stimulus, changing facial expressions and making occasional sounds also are among the body functions controlled by the brain stem.

"The part of the brain responsible for these responses--smiling, crying, chewing, moaning--is still working. But the part of the brain responsible for thinking is not," said Dr. Ghada Ahmed, attending physician at the Rehabilitation Institute of Chicago.
...
If the person cannot follow commands, consistently interact with others or repeatedly respond to stimuli, "we conclude whatever reactions they might have are involuntary, not purposeful," he said.

In other words, that hint of a smile is nothing more than a reflex unless Schiavo smiles frequently when her mom comes into the room."

"Facial contortions do occur that could be looked at as smiling if taken out of context," said Nathan Zasler, medical director and chief executive at Concussion Care Centre of Virginia. "The question is, what is the context and is there any consistency in her response?"


I am not sure whether the link will work, given its length.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0503...
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Griffy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-27-05 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. your point is unclear... do you believe she is aware?
or just believe we cant know anything.. or cant trust the doctor?... I think modern medical science is totally different then 1800's voodoo. Do you have a problem with the article? ....
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Claire Beth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-27-05 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
20. rated it a 5! n/t
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hector459 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-27-05 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
22. Not mention the fact that the tapes we are shown are from 2002
What do you imagine Terri looks like now? May she rest in peace soon.
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