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cal04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 01:34 PM
Original message
Dems Block GOP Efforts in Schiavo Case
Edited on Sun Mar-20-05 01:35 PM by cal04
House Republicans, seeing Congress as a last hope for brain-damaged Terri Schiavo, convened an extraordinary Palm Sunday session to pass legislation aimed at prolonging the Florida woman's life. Democrats refused to allow the measure to go ahead with a vote, forcing Republicans to scramble to bring their members back to Washington.


Republicans were denying that political motivations were behind legislative efforts to reconnect Schiavo's feeding tube.``I hope we're not ... making this human tragedy a political issue,'' said Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz. ``We've got plenty of other issues that are political in nature for us to fight about.''Leaders of both parties agreed Saturday on legislation that they said would allow Schiavo's feeding tube, which was disconnected Friday afternoon, to be reinserted while federal courts review her case.

But when the House convened Sunday afternoon, Democrats made clear they would not let it pass on a voice vote, requiring the assembly of a quorum for a roll call vote.


With that, Republicans called a recess and said they planned to meet as early as one minute after midnight on Monday, if they get the needed quorum of 218. The Senate was ready to give its quick approval and President Bush was planning to return from his ranch in Crawford, Texas, to sign it.The bill, ``for the relief of the parents of Theresa Marie Schiavo,'' gives the parents the right to file suit in federal court relating to the withdrawal of food and medical treatment needed to sustain the life of their daughter

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Schiavo-Congress.html?
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
1. Dems from Florida
are on CNN right now blasting the repukes over this.
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MO_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. And Doofus-Woofus Blitzer
keeps saying congress wants to "vote to have the feeding tube re-inserted". CNN, the misleader in news.
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Cooley Hurd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. He started off at the top of his broadcast repeating 2-3 times...
...that congress was convening to "save her life."

2 minutes before that, Howie Kurtz reported on the Project for Excellence in Journalism's report on cable news net bias and anchors exhibiting bias via opinion...:eyes:
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MO_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Ya know,
ever since Friday, it seems to me that CNN decided THEY THEMSELVES were going to save her life, and they are having to resort the same deliberately misleading tactics that repigs use.
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okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #10
53. see this is what I'm thinking, forget about worrying about voting
machines, we need to be worried about the media. this is why the repugs are winning elections all over the country. right now the media is feeding the lie that the dems are blocking, let me say that again blocking the motion to have the tube re-inserted.

that is a bald face lie, dems are waiting the votes to be on the record and the repugs don't want there to be any records of their votes to interfer in state affairs. but with the so-called liberial media the dems are being made out to be mean.
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Protagoras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-05 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #10
108. Do you think they feed him
good-doggy biscuits during the breaks for doing such a good job? The man has become such a shameless dog for the admin that I've entirely stopped watching CNN.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. aka "Cr@p Not News" n/t
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Rose Siding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 01:40 PM
Response to Original message
2. What have we here?
An opposition that reconizes the feds are making yet another power grab?

snip>
But some House Democrats were objecting to congressional involvement. Rep. Robert Wexler, D-Fla., said he plans to make an objection Sunday in an effort to stop the vote.

``The Republicans in Congress do not like the results that the Florida courts have reached and they are going to this extraordinary remedy of now stripping the Florida court of its jurisdiction so that maybe there can be another outcome,'' Wexler told NBC's ``Today'' show.

Rep. Earl Blumenauer, D-Ore., said in a statement, ``The assault by ideologues and intolerant people who would impose government on these most personal decisions continues.''
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Keep expecting some nasty amendment to anything the neocon rabble
tries to pass in the name of 'protecting Terri'.

Look at the fine print VERY CAREFULLY. At best, this will force people to be medical consumers even when it is not the wish of the patient and even when (or, perhaps, ESPECIALLY WHEN) it means financial ruin for the family. Interesting that this comes on the heels of the bankruptcy reform which just about sets the stage for indentured servitude for Americans faced with medical catastrophes.

At worst? :shrug: Since legislative reality of late has been worse than my worst fears, I do not venture to speculate how bad this rushed legislation could be. Just hope Congressional Dems have plenty of coffee and that their staffs keep awake to get them into session when the jerks, er, GOP leadership, decide to pull their crap up for a vote.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
3. They are losing it!
Edited on Sun Mar-20-05 01:44 PM by proud2Blib
David Weldon, repuke from Florida is now comparing Terry Schiavo case to that little 9 year old girl who was just murdered in Florida!
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hector459 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #3
32. Send the Congress the story about the black child that the hospital pulled
off life support over the protests of its mother. Where was the Congress then? This is so horrifyingly political and hypocritical I can't stand it!! Thousands are denied life support because they are poor or have no access to health care thanks to the political rightwing of this country. Do they even give a damn!! You bet they don't. Thousands are starving and living in poverty across the nation but do you even hear about them?
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Arkana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
4. This woman is not being allowed to die
with what little dignity she has left. 70% of her brain is liquid, for chrissakes! There is nobody home! She is NOT coming back!
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. This woman *is* dead. It's her body they won't let die. (nt)
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #7
73. This woman's SOUL is being held hostage!
WHY don't we frame it like THAT?

"You're the Bible party- why are you holding this woman's soul hostage?"
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #73
79. If that's what you believe, then that's what you should say.
I believe her soul has already gone and they're just keeping a corpse "alive".

In matters of faith there isn't often only one answer.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #4
66. Not According to "USED SCUMBAG" delay
Edited on Sun Mar-20-05 07:37 PM by saigon68
According to him, she is about to Jump out of bed and

DANCE A JIG, SINGING SWANEE RIVER!!!!

lol
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #66
68. Correct.
According to the right-wingers, she's just lazy.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
5. We need to email all members of congress on this and
ask them why they are violating their sworn oaths to uphold the constitution. This action violates the 10th Amendment. The Florida statutes have been followed, the Florida courts have decided the matter and Congress has no business or right to interfere with the laws of the State of Florida. No federal right exists to allow this resolution and it is in essence a "bill of attainder".


"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." --10th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States


Bill of Attainder

Definition: A legislative act that singles out an individual or group for punishment without a trial.

The Constitution of the United States, Article I, Section 9, paragraph 3 provides that: "No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law will be passed."

"The Bill of Attainder Clause was intended not as a narrow, technical (and therefore soon to be outmoded) prohibition, but rather as an implementation of the separation of powers, a general safeguard against legislative exercise of the judicial function or more simply - trial by legislature." U.S. v. Brown, 381 U.S. 437, 440 (1965).

"These clauses of the Constitution are not of the broad, general nature of the Due Process Clause, but refer to rather precise legal terms which had a meaning under English law at the time the Constitution was adopted. A bill of attainder was a legislative act that singled out one or more persons and imposed punishment on them, without benefit of trial. Such actions were regarded as odious by the framers of the Constitution because it was the traditional role of a court, judging an individual case, to impose punishment." William H. Rehnquist, The Supreme Court, page 166.

"Bills of attainder, ex post facto laws, and laws impairing the obligations of contracts, are contrary to the first principles of the social compact, and to every principle of sound legislation. ... The sober people of America are weary of the fluctuating policy which has directed the public councils. They have seen with regret and indignation that sudden changes and legislative interferences, in cases affecting personal rights, become jobs in the hands of enterprising and influential speculators, and snares to the more-industrious and less-informed part of the community." James Madison, Federalist Number 44, 1788.

Supreme Court cases construing the Bill of Attainder clause include:

* Ex Parte Garland, 4 Wallace 333 (1866).
* Cummings v. Missouri, 4 Wallace 277 (1866).
* U.S. v. Brown, 381 U.S. 437 (1965).
* Nixon v. Administrator of General Services, 433 U.S.425 (1977).
* Selective Service Administration v. Minnesota PIRG, 468 U.S. 841 (1984).

http://www.techlawjournal.com/glossary/legal/attainder.htm


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Delphinus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #5
23. Thank you, merh
for pointing out the 10th Amendment. But, if you'll recall, they violated their sworn oaths to uphold the Constitution when they gave * the power to go to war. Nevertheless, I'll e-mail them about this with your wording. I did yesterday, reminding them it was a judicial matter, not congressional.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #23
30. Because they violated it then does not mean I am not going to
Edited on Sun Mar-20-05 03:56 PM by merh
call them on it now! Damn it, I will call them on it every time they violate the Constitution.

You may want to read Judge Scalia's concurrent opinion in a similar matter and then use his words to remind them that the SCOTUS has opined that "the federal courts have no business in this field".


Scalia's concurrent opinion from the case of
Cruzan v. Director, Missouri Dep't of Health, 497 U.S. 261, where a woman in PVS sought (through her guardians) to terminate her life.

Cruzan v. Director, Missouri Dep't of Health, 497 U.S. 261 at 292:

JUSTICE SCALIA, concurring.

The various opinions in this case portray quite clearly the difficult, indeed agonizing, questions that are presented by the constantly increasing power of science to keep the human body alive for longer than any reasonable person would want to inhabit it. The States have begun to grapple with these problems through legislation. I am concerned, from the tenor of today's opinions, that we are poised to confuse that enterprise as successfully as we have confused the enterprise of legislating concerning abortion -- requiring it to be conducted against a background of federal constitutional imperatives that are unknown because they are being newly crafted from Term to Term. That would be a great misfortune.

While I agree with the Court's analysis today, and therefore join in its opinion, I would have preferred that we announce, clearly and promptly, that the federal courts have no business in this field; that American law has always accorded the State the power to prevent, by force if necessary, suicide -- including suicide by refusing to take appropriate measures necessary to preserve one's life; that the point at which life becomes "worthless," and the point at which the means necessary to preserve it become "extraordinary" or "inappropriate," are neither set forth in the Constitution nor known to the nine Justices of this Court any better than they are known to nine people picked at random from the Kansas City telephone directory; and hence, that even when it is demonstrated by clear and convincing evidence that a patient no longer wishes certain measures to be taken to preserve his or her life, it is up to the citizens of Missouri to decide, through their elected representatives, whether that wish will be honored. It is quite impossible (because the Constitution says nothing about the matter) that those citizens will decide upon a line less lawful than the one we would choose; and it is unlikely (because we know no more about "life and death" than they do) that they will decide upon a line less reasonable.

The text of the Due Process Clause does not protect individuals against deprivations of liberty simpliciter. It protects them against deprivations of liberty "without due process of law." To determine that such a deprivation would not occur if Nancy Cruzan were forced to take nourishment against her will, it is unnecessary to reopen the historically recurrent debate over whether "due process" includes substantive restrictions. Compare Murray's Lessee v. Hoboken Land and Improvement Co., 59 U.S. (18 How.) 272, 15 L. Ed. 372 (1856), with Scott v. Sandford, 60 U.S. (19 How.) 393, 450, 15 L. Ed. 691 (1857); compare Tyson & Brother v. Banton, 273 U.S. 418, 71 L. Ed. 718, 47 S. Ct. 426 (1927), with Olsen v. Nebraska ex rel. Western Reference & Bond Assn., Inc., 313 U.S. 236, 246-247, 85 L. Ed. 1305, 61 S. Ct. 862 (1941); compare Ferguson v. Skrupa, 372 U.S. 726, 730, 10 L. Ed. 2d 93, 83 S. Ct. 1028 (1963), with Moore v. East Cleveland, 431 U.S. 494, 52 L. Ed. 2d 531, 97 S. Ct. 1932 (1977) (plurality opinion); see Easterbrook, Substance and Due Process, 1982 S. Ct. Rev. 85; Monaghan, Our Perfect Constitution, 56 N. Y. U. L. Rev. 353 (1981). It is at least true that no "substantive due process" claim can be maintained unless the claimant demonstrates that the State has deprived him of a right historically and traditionally protected against state <**2860> interference. Michael H. v. Gerald D., 491 U.S. 110, 122, 105 L. Ed. 2d 91, 109 S. Ct. 2333 (1989) (plurality opinion); Bowers v. Hardwick, 478 U.S. 186, 192, 92 L. Ed. 2d 140, 106 S. Ct. 2841 (1986); Moore, 431 U.S. at 502-503 (plurality opinion). That cannot possibly be established here.

At common law in England, a suicide -- defined as one who "deliberately puts an end to his own existence, or commits any unlawful malicious act, the consequence of which is his own death," 4 W. Blackstone, Commentaries *189 -- was criminally liable. Ibid. Although the States abolished the penalties imposed by the common law (i. e., forfeiture and ignominious burial), they did so to spare the innocent family and not to legitimize the act. Case law at the time of the adoption of the Fourteenth Amendment generally held that assisting suicide was a criminal offense. See Marzen, O'Dowd, Crone, & Balch, Suicide: A Constitutional Right?, 24 Duquesne L. Rev. 1, 76 (1985) ("In short, twenty-one of the thirty-seven states, and eighteen of the thirty ratifying states prohibited assisting suicide. Only eight of the states, and seven of the ratifying states, definitely did not"); see also 1 F. Wharton, Criminal Law § 122 (6th rev. ed. 1868). The System of Penal Law presented to the House of Representatives by Representative Livingston in 1828 would have criminalized assisted suicide. E. Livingston, A System of Penal Law, Penal Code 122 (1828). The Field Penal Code, <*295> adopted by the Dakota Territory in 1877, proscribed attempted suicide and assisted suicide. Marzen, O'Dowd, Crone, & Balch, supra, at 76-77. And most States that did not explicitly prohibit assisted suicide in 1868 recognized, when the issue arose in the 50 years following the Fourteenth Amendment's ratification, that assisted and (in some cases) attempted suicide were unlawful. Id., at 77-100; id., at 148-242 (surveying development of States' laws). Thus, "there is no significant support for the claim that a right to suicide is so rooted in our tradition that it may be deemed 'fundamental' or 'implicit in the concept of ordered liberty.'" Id., at 100 (quoting Palko v. Connecticut, 302 U.S. 319, 325, 82 L. Ed. 288, 58 S. Ct. 149 (1937)).

Petitioners rely on three distinctions to separate Nancy Cruzan's case from ordinary suicide: (1) that she is permanently incapacitated and in pain; (2) that she would bring on her death not by any affirmative act but by merely declining treatment that provides nourishment; and (3) that preventing her from effectuating her presumed wish to die requires violation of her bodily integrity. None of these suffices. Suicide was not excused even when committed "to avoid those ills which had not the fortitude to endure." 4 Blackstone, supra, at *189. "The life of those to whom life has become a burden -- of those who are <***253> hopelessly diseased or fatally wounded -- nay, even the lives of criminals condemned to death, are under the protection of the law, equally as the lives of those who are in the full tide of life's enjoyment, and anxious to continue to live." Blackburn v. State, 23 Ohio St. 146, 163 (1873). Thus, a man who prepared a poison, and placed it within reach of his wife, "to put an end to her suffering" from a terminal illness was convicted of murder, People v. Roberts, 211 Mich. 187, 198, 178 N.W. 690, 693 (1920); the "incurable suffering of the suicide, as a legal question, could hardly affect the degree of criminality . . . ." Note, 30 Yale L. J. 408, 412 (1921) (discussing Roberts). Nor would the imminence of the patient's death have <*296> affected liability. "The lives of all are equally under the protection of the law, and under that protection to their last moment. . . . is declared by the law to be murder, irrespective of the wishes or the condition of the party to whom the poison is administered . . . ." Blackburn, supra, at 163; see also Commonwealth v. Bowen, 13 Mass. 356, 360 (1816).

<**2861> The second asserted distinction -- suggested by the recent cases canvassed by the Court concerning the right to refuse treatment, 497 U.S. at 270-277 -- relies on the dichotomy between action and inaction. Suicide, it is said, consists of an affirmative act to end one's life; refusing treatment is not an affirmative act "causing" death, but merely a passive acceptance of the natural process of dying. I readily acknowledge that the distinction between action and inaction has some bearing upon the legislative judgment of what ought to be prevented as suicide -- though even there it would seem to me unreasonable to draw the line precisely between action and inaction, rather than between various forms of inaction. It would not make much sense to say that one may not kill oneself by walking into the sea, but may sit on the beach until submerged by the incoming tide; or that one may not intentionally lock oneself into a cold storage locker, but may refrain from coming indoors when the temperature drops below freezing. Even as a legislative matter, in other words, the intelligent line does not fall between action and inaction but between those forms of inaction that consist of abstaining from "ordinary" care and those that consist of abstaining from "excessive" or "heroic" measures. Unlike action versus inaction, that is not a line to be discerned by logic or legal analysis, and we should not pretend that it is.

But to return to the principal point for present purposes: the irrelevance of the action-inaction distinction. Starving oneself to death is no different from putting a gun to one's temple as far as the common-law definition of suicide is concerned; the cause of death in both cases is the suicide's conscious <*297> decision to "put an end to his own existence." 4 Blackstone, supra, at *189. See In re Caulk, 125 N.H. 226, 232, 480 A.2d 93, 97 (1984); State ex rel. White v. Narick, 170 W. Va. 195, 292 S.E.2d 54 (1982); Von Holden v. Chapman, 87 A.D.2d 66, 450 N.Y.S.2d 623 (1982). Of course the common law rejected the action-inaction distinction in other contexts involving the taking of human life as well. In the prosecution of a parent for the starvation death of her infant, it was no defense that the infant's <***254> death was "caused" by no action of the parent but by the natural process of starvation, or by the infant's natural inability to provide for itself. See Lewis v. State, 72 Ga. 164 (1883); People v. McDonald, 49 Hun 67, 1 N.Y.S. 703 (5th Dept., App. Div. 1888); Commonwealth v. Hall, 322 Mass. 523, 528, 78 N.E.2d 644, 647 (1948) (collecting cases); F. Wharton, Law of Homicide §§ 134-135, 304 (2d ed. 1875); 2 J. Bishop, Commentaries on Criminal Law § 686 (5th ed. 1872); J. Hawley & M. McGregor, Criminal Law 152 (3d ed. 1899). A physician, moreover, could be criminally liable for failure to provide care that could have extended the patient's life, even if death was immediately caused by the underlying disease that the physician failed to treat. Barrow v. State, 17 Okla. Crim. 340, 188 P. 351 (1920); People v. Phillips, 64 Cal. 2d 574, 414 P.2d 353, 51 Cal. Rptr. 225 (1966).

It is not surprising, therefore, that the early cases considering the claimed right to refuse medical treatment dismissed as specious the nice distinction between "passively submitting to death and actively seeking it. The distinction may be merely verbal, as it would be if an adult sought death by starvation instead of a drug. If the State may interrupt one mode of self-destruction, it may with equal authority interfere with the other." John F. Kennedy Memorial Hosp. v. Heston, 58 N.J. 576, 581-582, 279 A.2d 670, 672-673 (1971); see also Application of President & Directors of Georgetown College, Inc., 118 U.S. App. D.C. 80, 88-89, 331 F.2d 1000, <*298> 1008-1009 (Wright, J., in chambers), cert. denied, 377 U.S. 978, 12 L. Ed. 2d 746, 84 S. Ct. 1883 (1964).

The third asserted basis of distinction -- that frustrating Nancy Cruzan's wish to die in the present case requires interference with her bodily integrity -- is likewise inadequate, because such interference is impermissible only if one begs the question whether her refusal to undergo the treatment on her own is suicide. It has always been lawful not <**2862> only for the State, but even for private citizens, to interfere with bodily integrity to prevent a felony. See Phillips v. Trull, 11 Johns. 486 (N. Y. 1814); City Council v. Payne, 11 S.C. L. 475, 2 Nott & McC. 475 (S. C. 1821); Vandeveer v. Mattocks, 3 Ind. 479 (1852); T. Cooley, Law of Torts 174-175 (1879); Wilgus, Arrest Without a Warrant, 22 Mich. L. Rev. 673 (1924); Restatement of Torts § 119 (1934). That general rule has of course been applied to suicide. At common law, even a private person's use of force to prevent suicide was privileged. Colby v. Jackson, 12 N.H. 526, 530-531 (1842); Look v. Choate, 108 Mass. 116, 120 (1871); Commonwealth v. Mink, 123 Mass. 422, 429 (1877); In re Doyle, 16 R.I. 537, 539, 18 A. 159, 159-160 (1889); Porter v. Ritch, 70 Conn. 235, 255, 39 A. 169, 175 (1898); Emmerich v. Thorley, 35 A.D. 452, 456, 54 N.Y.S. 791, 793-794 (1898); State v. Hembd, 305 Minn. 120, 130, 232 N.W.2d 872, 878 (1975); 2 C. Addison, Law of Torts § 819 (1876); Cooley, supra, at 179-180. It is not even reasonable, much less required by the Constitution, to maintain that although the State has the right to prevent a person from slashing his wrists, it does not have the power to apply physical force to prevent him from doing so, nor the power, should he succeed, to apply, coercively if necessary, medical measures to stop the flow of blood. The state-run hospital, I am certain, is not liable under 42 U. S. C. § 1983 <***255> for violation of constitutional rights, nor the private hospital liable under general tort law, if, in a State where suicide is unlawful, it pumps out the stomach of a person who has intentionally <*299> taken an overdose of barbiturates, despite that person's wishes to the contrary.

The dissents of JUSTICES BRENNAN and STEVENS make a plausible case for our intervention here only by embracing -- the latter explicitly and the former by implication -- a political principle that the States are free to adopt, but that is demonstrably not imposed by the Constitution. "The State," says JUSTICE BRENNAN, "has no legitimate general interest in someone's life, completely abstracted from the interest of the person living that life, that could outweigh the person's choice to avoid medical treatment." 497 U.S. at 313 (emphasis added). The italicized phrase sounds moderate enough and is all that is needed to cover the present case -- but the proposition cannot logically be so limited. One who accepts it must also accept, I think, that the State has no such legitimate interest that could outweigh "the person's choice to put an end to her life." Similarly, if one agrees with JUSTICE BRENNAN that "the State's general interest in life must accede to Nancy Cruzan's particularized and intense interest in self-determination in her choice of medical treatment," post, at 314 (emphasis added), he must also believe that the State must accede to her "particularized and intense interest in self-determination in her choice whether to continue living or to die." For insofar as balancing the relative interests of the State and the individual is concerned, there is nothing distinctive about accepting death through the refusal of "medical treatment," as opposed to accepting it through the refusal of food, or through the failure to shut off the engine and get out of the car after parking in one's garage after work. Suppose that Nancy Cruzan were in precisely the condition she is in today, except that she could be fed and digest food and water without artificial assistance. How is the State's "interest" in keeping her alive thereby increased, or her interest in deciding whether she wants to continue living reduced? It seems to me, in other words, that JUSTICE BRENNAN's position ultimately rests upon the proposition that it is none of the State's <*300> business if a person wants to commit suicide. JUSTICE STEVENS is explicit on the point: "Choices about death touch the core of liberty . . . . Not much may be said with confidence about death unless it is said from faith, and that alone is reason enough to protect the freedom to conform choices about death to individual conscience." Post, at 343. This is a view that some societies have held, and that our States are free to adopt if they wish. But it is not a view imposed by our constitutional traditions, <**2863> in which the power of the State to prohibit suicide is unquestionable.

What I have said above is not meant to suggest that I would think it desirable, if we were sure that Nancy Cruzan wanted to die, to keep her alive by the means at issue here. I assert only that the Constitution has nothing to say about the subject. To raise up a constitutional right here we would have to create out of nothing (for it exists neither in text nor tradition) some constitutional principle whereby, although the <***256> State may insist that an individual come in out of the cold and eat food, it may not insist that he take medicine; and although it may pump his stomach empty of poison he has ingested, it may not fill his stomach with food he has failed to ingest. Are there, then, no reasonable and humane limits that ought not to be exceeded in requiring an individual to preserve his own life? There obviously are, but they are not set forth in the Due Process Clause. What assures us that those limits will not be exceeded is the same constitutional guarantee that is the source of most of our protection -- what protects us, for example, from being assessed a tax of 100% of our income above the subsistence level, from being forbidden to drive cars, or from being required to send our children to school for 10 hours a day, none of which horribles are categorically prohibited by the Constitution. Our salvation is the Equal Protection Clause, which requires the democratic majority to accept for themselves and their loved ones what they impose on you and me. This Court need not, and has no authority to, inject itself into every field of human activity <*301> where irrationality and oppression may theoretically occur, and if it tries to do so it will destroy itself.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3307696#3308002
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
9. Compare the rational, reasoned Dem perspective with the reactionary
freakazoids on the other side who hold up that poor woman as a symbol for their gouhlish ends. This is BIG, friends...i'm so happy to see that many of our leaders have stepped up and spoken TRUTH to power!!
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AngryOldDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 02:15 PM
Response to Original message
12. If it's not a "political issue," then what exactly is it?
<<``I hope we're not ... making this human tragedy a political issue,'' said Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz. ``We've got plenty of other issues that are political in nature for us to fight about.''>>

Too late, John.

I think everyone recognizes shameless moral grandstanding when they see it.
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MO_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Did you see Mel Matinez on Fox this a.m.?
When confronted with the repig talking points memos, he almost broke into a grin knowing they'd been caught redhanded with a political motive, then he straightened his face up and denied that it was a political matter. Sheesh!
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. GOP memo says issue offers political rewards
... "This is an important moral issue, and the pro-life base will be excited that the Senate is debating this important issue," said the memo, reported by ABC News and later given to The Washington Post. "This is a great political issue, because Senator Nelson of Florida has already refused to become a co-sponsor and this is a tough issue for Democrats."
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002213728_memo20.html

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AngryOldDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. Missed it, but not surprised
I'm waiting for Bush's Breathless Midnight Entrance onto the South Lawn so he can rush in and protect Terri from the inevitable. :eyes:

Channel switching just now and came upon a "Fox exclusive" -- a videotape from 2002 or 2003 (Fox unsure) that shows her dad talking to her. Terri's response? Sounded ike an animal wail. I found it not at all compelling evidence to keep the tube in. I found it very disturbing.

And am I the only one who's noticed that most of these tapes the Schindlers keep offering as evidence that she is functioning are at least four years old? What is the date of the most recent one? Regardless...her cortex is GONE. Without that, you have NO functioning. The cortex will not regenerate. She cannot be rehabbed.

The brain is gone, folks; let her die while she still has some semblance of dignity left.

So...if this succeeds, what other private matters will the Feds declare worthy of their intervention?
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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #20
27. Midnight Entrance............
Say, do you think we'll get to see the Midnight Entrance made by the coffins of dead Americans coming home to Dover AFB?

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LibDemAlways Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #27
50. Dead soldiers are inconvenient and
Edited on Sun Mar-20-05 05:34 PM by LibDemAlways
score no one any political points, thus they are kept out of sight. Prolonging the "life" of a braindead woman in defiance of court orders panders in the sickest, most cynical way possible to the fundie whack jobs that make up the "base" of today's repuke party. I can only hope that this backfires bigtime and that the moderates who keep making excuses for the chimp and this admin. start to wake up to how evil they truly are.
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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #50
61. A picture really is worth a thousand
or several billion words.

If Mrs. Schiavo's parents hadn't, in defiance of a court order specifically prohibiting them from doing so, videotaped their daughter when they did, and then circulated the heavily edited final version, none of this would be happening. I am solidly convinced of it.

The power of pictures. That Ratface In The White House and his band of squatter thugs know this better than anything else they know, and look what they've gotten away with.

I wish Mr. Schiavo could have shown people what his wife really looks like and ended their charade. But, he respects her dignity.

So, now tell me who loves her - her exploitive, immoral parents, or her steadily loyal and dedicated husband?
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NYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #61
74. The Florida courts watched the unedited videotapes.
Edited on Sun Mar-20-05 09:51 PM by NYC
They ruled that the tubes were legally removed, that her parents had no new medical info. to change the decision, and that Jeb Bush did not have the right to act to reinsert the tube.

I read a 30 page PDF file. Can't remember the link.
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louis-t Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #20
28. What I recall is the husband saying:
"they took 10 to 12 hours of video of her to get the few seconds where it looked like she was responding." He said they would talk to her-no response. Wave something in front of her eyes-no response. Grab her hand-no response. This poor mother is now begging the Congress to 'save her little girl'. Save her from what? They can't cure her. * wants to take her medical coverage away. The mother says "we talk, we laugh," but the mother is doing this for herself, not her daughter. Very sad decision to make.
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AngryOldDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #28
45. I just have this sad image
of a woman curled in a fetal position. You know there HAS to be signficant atrophy and deterioration over a three to four year time span, especially with an organ so central to functioning as the cortex.

I'm sorry, but that is no way to "live." I feel for the parents. I would not want to see my child die, either. But enough is enough. There is no hope here. So for what are they keeping her alive? Another Lazarus miracle?

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LibDemAlways Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #45
57. Michael Schiavo ought to invite
the chimp, Delay, and any other politicians trying to postpone the inevitable to come see Terri before uttering another word. If these assholes are going to try to interfere in somebody else's private business, they ought to become familiar with the situation firsthand. I bet they'd quietly change their tune if confronted by the reality of what that woman's "life" is actually like.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #20
33. CorporateNewsNetwork Showed AF-1 Landing at Andrews
The only thing missing was the sound of "Hi-Oh Silver!" (Mighty Mouth is on his way.) :eyes:

GOP = Ghoulish Odious Perverts!
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AzDar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. Sometimes McCain seems horrified by his own party...Too little too
late,Johnny-Boy,after your Campaign 2004 role as Shrub's favorite beyotch.
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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #12
26. You meant ............
......"immoral grandstanding," didn't you?

I thought so.

:)
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AngryOldDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #26
43. Thanks for the correction!
Edited on Sun Mar-20-05 05:12 PM by AngryOldDem
Sounds even better! :) :thumbsup:
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cal04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
13. House Republicans Fail to Win Immediate Passage
Jeb couldn't get the florida courts to side with him, so he goes to his brother)

House Republicans Fail to Win Immediate Passage of Legislation Aimed at Terri Schiavo
"The Republicans in Congress do not like the results that the Florida courts have reached and they are going to this extraordinary remedy of now stripping the Florida court of its jurisdiction so that maybe there can be another outcome," Rep. Robert Wexler, D-Fla., told NBC's "Today" show.

Rep. Earl Blumenauer, D-Ore., said in a statement, "The assault by ideologues and intolerant people who would impose government on these most personal decisions continues."

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGBJOZEMJ6E.html
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_TJ_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
15. Can't these politicians just stop playing games...
...with this persons life? She is a human being for god's sake -
why won't they let her find peace :(



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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
17. Now she is being denied communion!
Oh my heavens, what will they deprive her of next?

http://amightywind.com/whatsnew/050125terrischiavo4.htm

<sarcasm off>
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durablend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. Next you'll tell me they won't let her watch FOXsnooze
THE HORROR!!!!!
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. She wasn't denied communion. They tossed it into the tube.
Her parents requested that she get communion, so that's what was done.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #22
31. Not today
read the link.
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #22
46. Does the Catholic Church permit that to happen?
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #46
63. I don't know, but her parents wanted her to have it, and Felos,
Edited on Sun Mar-20-05 07:17 PM by janx
Michael Schiavo's lawyer, said that she was given communion just before they removed the tube.
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #63
67. That might had been the last rites
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AngryOldDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #46
70. Generally, I think not...
...but this has become such a cause celebre that I'm sure they're making an exception in this case. (And I'm Catholic, by the way, and this is perhaps the most cynical thing I've ever written about the institution. But I think it is so wrong on this issue.)
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Mr.Green93 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 03:20 PM
Response to Original message
24. Alright!
if we can keep this tied up for a few more hours nature will take it's course and the repubs will be losers all the way around. This event may be the catalyst that gives us back the Congress.
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Pettson Donating Member (22 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. I doubt...
Actively fighting to have some woman starve to death so her husband can collect the insurance money will look good ...media-wise. I predict bad news for those who have.
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northzax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. and I doubt
that fighting to ensure that the federal government passes laws denying spouses the right ot make medical decisions for their husbads/wives, a millenia-old tradition, will go over real well either. That is what they're saying, you know that right? you may be legally married, but you do not have the right to make a decision on medical care for your spouse when she is incapacitated. The United States Congress knows, better than you, what your wife wants.

think about that fora second. You can get married, but your wife's parents still have more of a say than you do.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #34
76. They both had living wills. It was the woman's explicit wish to NOT be
alive is the exact condition she is in.

She has NO BRAIN.

These repukes and the parents are expressly going against the explicit wishes of both the woman and her husband.

But yet the repukes send out a "talking points - action" memo ONLY TO REPUKES - but the whore media REGURGITATES repuke talking points that this is "not political".

And the Swift Boat Liars had just another valid viewpoint after they were PROVEN to be LIARS.

Same with bunkerboy, kindasleeza & colin bowel.

LIARS.

Fucking pigs.
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Red State Rebel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #76
84. She did NOT have a living will
I just did a google search because I thought that was the case.

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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #84
88. Thanks for the update.
I "heard" she did. My bad.

Now: All the more reasons for folks to GET A LIVING WILL so there can be NO NISUNDERSTANDING in situations like this.

Especially for GLBT persons.
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KDLarsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-05 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #88
105. While I might be too young (I'm "only" 22)..
Edited on Mon Mar-21-05 12:02 PM by KDLarsen
.. I think that it might be a tad early to take out a living will. OTOH, I have had a discussion with my dad before, and we both know the other persons decision on this matter (I assume I, along with my sisters, would be the one to make the "official" decision, given that my parents are divorsed).

However, I would also recommend that if other DU'ers make a living will, please include details of organ donation as well. In Denmark we have a central register for these things, and I have registred as a full donor (ie. everything useable will be donated), but I don't know how these things work in the US.
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FredScuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #29
35. There is no "insurance money" for him to collect
Do yourself a favor and peruse one of the trillion threads on this matter to get caught up to speed.
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Red State Rebel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #35
86. There were proceeds from a lawsuit of over $850,000
He will receive those funds.
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moobu2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #86
87. That is old ass news. The money has been gone for years..
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #29
62. oh please, educate yourself before spouting crap (n/t)
(self-deleted the rest, but y'all can imagine what it was)
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moobu2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #29
83. That's because you've formed your opinion around a rightwing religous lie.
This is from the court appointed guardian report.
Of Michael Schiavo, there is the incorrect perception that he has refused to relinquish his guardianship because of financial interests, and more recently, because of allegations that he actually abused Theresa and seeks to hide this. There is no evidence in the record to substantiate any of these perceptions or allegations.


Wolfsons report to Jeb Bush
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Amfortas Donating Member (625 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-05 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #29
99. what insurance money !
there is NO money ! sheesh !
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nytemare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 03:22 PM
Response to Original message
25. If she is finally allowed to pass, the Dem party will be then known
as "the party that killed Terri Schaivo". I can feel it coming already, despite the fact that she really is already dead, and she is being kept alive technically against "God's will".
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #25
77. She's being kept alive against HER WRITTEN INSTRUCTIONS.
She's being kept alive against HER will!

Fuck "god's will" - it's HER will that the repukes are going against.
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Red State Rebel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-05 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #77
94. Repeating - she did NOT leave a written Living Will
This decision is being based on what her husband told the court that she verbally said to him. There is plenty of documentation on this case and it doesn't take very long to get the facts if you look.
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Protagoras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-05 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #25
109. And if we stop fighting and she's allowed
to be used as a sock puppet by the Right, then be a few steps closer to the Democratic party being known as "That party that used to exist before the God inspired Party of the Right finished it's conversion of God's country to single party, rapture headed unity."

We have to learn how to defend our positions AND fast...or we're going to be swept away.
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Cooley Hurd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
36. CNN Breaking: Senate passes bill on Schiavo case
Edited on Sun Mar-20-05 04:42 PM by Cooley Hurd
...passed unanimously.

legislation approved that would allow feeding tube to be replaced, as well as giving her parents standing to sue in federal Court.

still looking for link...
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whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Go here to see DU comments...
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FlemingsGhost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. In any other reality, this would be deplorable and haunt the GOP.
Edited on Sun Mar-20-05 04:39 PM by FlemingsGhost
Alas, the American public are about as awake as Schiavo.
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PROGRESSIVE1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. true
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rogue_bandit Donating Member (105 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. Thought they canceled
I thought I read they stopped debate because Dems wanted to comment.

So, was there any debate?
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oneold1-4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #39
58. Some dumb dems-
Edited on Sun Mar-20-05 05:56 PM by oneold1-4u
need some high school civics lessons as bad as the republicans!
The house of representatives did not have a quorum to vote and not enough republicans around to create passage. They did have enough to force a recess until midnight to try to get their s--- together.
They just might do it, but I think there are a lot of good republicans who are about ready to quit playing this game soooo dirty! There has to be quite a few who know that nearly all the rules for this nation, set in the constitution, have already been abolished, or certainly whored, for the sake of this regime. They understand that they, each one, is marked if this regime falls!
We cannot hope to use the laws if we don't know and understand them!
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. Does the Senate have any jurisdiction over a court ruling?
If this has teeth it is an *extremely* bad precedent to set
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maddezmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #36
41. correct, now it needs to go to the House
and they are reconvening at 9:00pm EST...if I heard correctly.
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Danmack Donating Member (478 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #36
47. As soon as I read this I sent Reid an email that this registered..
democrat voter is changing to an Independant.

May all the talibornagains go to hell.

This is fukin unbelievable.

I guess it really is time to get a third party going because the assholes we got just don't GET IT.

:argh:
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hyphenate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
44. I have become so outraged
so fed-up with the fucking GOP on this matter. Between Randall Terry, her asshole parents and the entire right wing of politics, this has arguably become one of the most horrible and divisive battles that ever has been foisted on the citizens of our country.

These asshole pukes just want something to raise their hackles about, to scream and shout their fucked up agenda, and take what is an essentially PRIVATE matter and turned it into a raison d'etre for the entire anti-choice side of the fence.

I am APPALLED at their continued lack of sensitivity for this shit, and especially for the parents of this woman, who are showing NOT their compassion for their daughter, but for the entire sanctity of marriage, and the entire existence of the right to a dignified end for their daughter.

This circus, plus the celebrity trials we have going on in this country, show exactly the entire mindset of the fucked up wing in the U.S. Once upon a time, the right wing was supposedly all about keeping the government OUT of the private lives of the people. Now, it's quite obvious that these assholes now are quite the opposite: between all this crap, the Patriot Act and every other rotten to the core element of this fucked up administration, we're all going to be micro-managed to even the gum we chew and the shoes we wear.

Is there no end to the control that these asses are imposing on every single one of us? Is there no way to find a solution to their constant hatred of our civil liberties? There must come a day when we can tell them to shove it up their own asses because we're not going to take it anymore. When will that be, though? Will it be exactly one day before the asshole pushes the buttons to the nuclear weapons aimed at parts of the middle east? Or will we be able to stop this regime once and for all before that madness leaves us little to no choice to straighten out our country?
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Mr.Green93 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #44
48.  for the entire sanctity of marriage
Which marriage are you talking about?
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hyphenate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #48
52. The marriage between Michael Schiavo
and his wife, Terri. Her parents should get the fuck out the way since she was his wife, and not under the jurisdiction of her parents anymore. As her husband he DOES have the right to follow what her wishes would have been, and her parents are blocking that right.

I was just now thinking as I was reading the rest of the thread, that what Schiavo should do is move the hell out of Florida, even if it's only for a short while, and take Terri with him. After all, as her husband, she should legally be allowed to travel with him anywhere in the country--or world--that she wants. Then they should head to either Washington state, Oregon, or somewhere here in New England. That way, we wouldn't be dealing with the likes of such ignorant assholes as the Bush family, or the anti-choice rabble. I wonder if anyone has even thought about that possibility.
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potatoe Donating Member (34 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-05 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #52
97. I must admit it is a head scratching moment to see feminists
taking the side of a husband who is opposing the wishes of a helpless woman's blood relatives. Tom DeLay comes off looking like Gloria Allred.
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Binka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-05 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #97
100. I Suspect You Do More Ass Scratching Then Head Scratching n/t
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hyphenate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-05 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #97
101. What does feminism really have to do with it?
It has nothing to do with feminists and "equal rights" or anything like that! What it HAS is a right for people, regardless of gender, to be able to determine their own fate in their lives, and for those close to them to accept and follow those wishes, regardless of what those wishes are.

I watched one of my best friends die two years ago, in respecting her wishes for final disposition. She had a DNR (Do Not Resuscitate) order on her file, and this meant making her comfortable and allowing her to peacefully sleep until her last heartbeat. She died, as a result, in a very serene, very comfortable manner, without arguments, without fights and without any rigamarole over her "right" to die. THIS is the issue!

Since Terri Schiavo did not have a DNR on her chart, as she was still in her twenties when this all happened, it was and IS up to the person closest to her to follow her unspoken wishes. That person HAPPENS to be her husband--NOT her parents. She was NOT in the care of her parents, she was a married woman, out of her parents' home, and therefore it is her HUSBAND who has to rely on her knowledge of his wife to follow her unspoken wishes. That "closest" person is one of the reasons that gays want to be able to have a legal union with their loved ones--it helps give the partner, who has been with them for many years in some cases, the right to BE that "closest" person, and be the one to help determine the fate of their partner, instead of some relative just barging in and making decisions for someone they essentially know diddly about.

The RIGHT to help his wife with that final wish is probably one of the most challenging decisions he will or has ever had to make, and if you think he's doing it for selfish reasons, you should look at some of the other threads where pix of Terri's brain show absolutely NO upper brain function, and that she is NOT a thinking person now--doesn't even have the capacity to think. Her brain essentially is functioning about the same level as a paramecium right now. The autonomic functions are really the only thing which separates her from death and life.

So don't even go there in respect to considering this a matter of "feminism" because it's not. The husband is the only one who lived with and loved his wife enough to know what her choices would have been if she'd had any foresight to write them down.
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potatoe Donating Member (34 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-05 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #101
107. Her husband may have been the person closest to her
a long time ago, back when she was still able to cook and clean house for him. Now that she is of no use to him, who is closest to her now?

Her Mom & and Dad have had to step up to the plate and see to it that she is at least provided with water and food.

When it comes to speaking up on her behalf, the silence of the National Organization for Women is deafening.
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Merlin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
49. We are complete idiots to block this. Let them keep her alive.
Who gives a rat's ass. It's only a matter of money, and as long as her husband doesn't have to pick up the tab, they can keep her alive for another century as far as I'm concerned.

We should not seek to impose our will on this issue upon those who feel a strong personal and spiritual importance for not permitting her to starve to death.

We liberals must stop ignoring the passionate religious beliefs of others and start cutting them some slack. Is the GOP exploiting those beliefs? Yes, of course. But that's no reason for us to foolishly step into their trap and play the bad guy--the role they want us to play.
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Pettson Donating Member (22 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #49
54. Yes
Exactly my point. This is looking like a PR disaster for democrats. After the story has been through the media, it will look like anyone voting against the bill was trying to kill that poor woman.

You cannot win. Either you vote against it and win the vote, she dies. Or you vote against it and lose the vote, she lives. Both scenarios make you look bad.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-05 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #54
95. So--what's your political affiliation?
The phrase "make you look bad" sounds like it's coming from outside the Democratic Party.

This is a matter of right or wrong, not "PR".
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johnnyrocket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #49
55. YES! YES! YES! The Dems better NOT fall into another obvious trap!
They do it time and time again...let it go the the DAMMED Supreme Court, WHO CARES!?

My guess is the Supreme Court will say pull the plug 5-4...they've been acting that way lately.
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oneold1-4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #49
59. You are Soooooooo Right
She hasn't been politically important for 15 years, so let it go! It's kind of like a house on fire, when the fire is out, everyone goes home!
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oneold1-4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #49
60. I have another ?
She must have been declared dissabled over 14 years ago! Who has been getting dissability payments all that time??
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Inland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #49
65. I don't get it. Upon whom are we supposedly imposing our will?
This is the law of the state of Florida.

Thisis the wish of Terry Schaivo.

This is the wish of her husband.

But there are people who haven't a care in the world who have "strong personal and spiritual beliefs", so they should be allowed to step in and decide what's best for Florida, for the family, and for the individual.

Of course, you start from the premise that only religious fanatics are allowed to involve themselves in anything that doesn't affect them directly. The rest of us--we don't have any deeply held beliefs, so we should just butt out. Can't wait to hear how THAT plays out.
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Merlin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #65
72. Yes, we should just butt out.
We don't have a dog in this fight.

What does it profit us to be that bad guys here?



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Theduckno2 Donating Member (905 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-05 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #72
92. Schiavo legislation
I believe it was Will Rogers who upon losing a political race, congradulated the victor, but then stated "...as for me I would rather be right." I think it will take a great deal of discipline not to pander to those who would look past the law of the land (and 7 years of litigation), just to look like good guys. I think this fight is worth it.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #65
80. It's to hard for the morons to understand logic.
Even on DU.
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sleipnir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #49
75. You're missing the point entirely.
It's no longer about Terry at all. Now the monster we're dealing with is the United States Congress vs The State of Florida and each and every state of the Union. Congress is trying to declare a "do-over" because they didn't like the 6 different court rulings in Florida. I could give two shits about Shiavo, but the real issue at hand is that Congress is about to abandon 275+ years of checks and balances all on a nice, neat little platter.

The fact that Congress feels that it can overrule the courts by passing a bill is dangerous and is outside of their checks and balances. They merely approve fair justices to the bench, that is the check of Congress.

The abandonment of law here is real and quite frightening. What's to stop them with Shiavo once they set a popular precedent? Perhaps they'll declare Roe v Wade illegal by a bill? Who knows, the flood gates are about to be opened.
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Merlin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-05 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #75
102. And you're missing the politics entirely. The politics are more important.
Look, these bastards are going to do whatever they can get away with as the majority. Bank on it.

Our job is to recover the majority before they have a chance to do more damage. We can't do that by taking ridiculously unpopular positions on relatively insignificant issues simply to uphold a theoretical principal.
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moobu2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #49
82. You've completely fallen for all the rightwing religous lies
Your post also indicates an extreme lack of understanding of the issues involved here.

and, I don't give a rats ass what religious superstitions people hold, I do not want a bunch of lying scumbag politicians and religous fruitcakes making my medical decisions.
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Merlin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-05 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #82
103. They're not YOUR medical decisions to make. That's liberal elitist crap.
They belong to everybody. And in this case, the people most ardently affected are the Shiavos.

Step into the real world. You're not the only one who has a right to get what you want in the world. These people also have rights. This is a profoundly personal matter with them involving their daughter. How DARE you preempt their ability to do all they can to preserve the possibility of her recovery--no matter how remote.

If it were a matter of who's PAYING for it, that would be different. But that's not at issue here.
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Spiffarino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
51. Let them sink or swim on this
If they want to insert themselves into people's personal lives in this way, let them hang themselves on it. They presume to be the party of "freedom" and personal responsibility. The Dems need to give them the rope and, when it gets long enough, yank it hard.
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johnnyrocket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #51
56. Absolutely! Give them PLENTY of ROPE! And stand back!!!
The people will eventually see through this grandstanding, and realize the overbearing nature of the GOP...and hopefully spook the average Joe to get a clue "Oh crap, the GOP is all in my personal life."
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #56
64. just how much rope are we talking about here?
They've circumnabulated the globe a few times already and are weaving corn rows to the sun......
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #56
81. Just like the last "election" - right.
The amerikkkan sheeple won't ever see anything unless it is THEIR nuts in the vice.

Faith in the amerikkkan sheeple was lost LONG ago.
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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #56
89. That rope
is taking away your civil liberties.

You better rethink your stance, and try to comprehend what the ramifications of this matter are to you and yours.
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 07:46 PM
Response to Original message
69. What is it about the FL courts that the GOP doesn't like?
Gore 2000, and now this.

Someone needs to give the GOP leadership a class on the separation of powers.
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Spiffarino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #69
71. What they want is total control
First a rubber-stamp Congress, then a rubber-stamp Court. After that, the takeover is complete. Bush becomes der Fuehrer.
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
78. Dems willing to fight R's on this
but not on the egregious bankruptcy bill? I'm confused.
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iamjoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 10:58 PM
Response to Original message
85. OH, Now They Want A Suit In Federal Court
If a person is injured by a company's negligence, they must sue in state court (which could create problems if the company is based in one state and the person lives in another).

But Terri Schaivo's parents should be able to sue in federal court.

:eyes:
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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #85
90. No
It's no problem if a company is doing business in the state where the injury takes place. Go read about rules of jurisdiction and venue in your Civil Procedure casebook.

Oh, you don't have a Civil Procedure casebook?

Then, you've got to get yourself a law degree and a license before you start practicing law.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-05 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #85
91. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
BlueIris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-05 09:27 AM
Response to Original message
93. While the bulk of my emotional effort in this matter
is still expended feeling sorry for Schiavo's husband, (and the death of democracy) what still stands out to me about this post specifically--John McCain trying to be decent. Thank you, Senator McCain, for continuing to try to inject some sort of reason into the sad, sorry state of affairs that is your party.
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-05 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
96. uh, yeah, more important than stolen elections, phony wars, bankruptcy
Edited on Mon Mar-21-05 10:29 AM by robbedvoter
yeay, dems! :eyes:
Steroids, forcing people to vegetate - we trully became the Roman empire - the decadent stage - Caligula, Tiberius type - where we gross out the world as we kill them.
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doodadem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-05 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
98. This is just ridiculous
Edited on Mon Mar-21-05 11:02 AM by doodadem
I heard an interview on NPR yesterday with a doctor who was saying he has to make a judgment on at least one case like this PER DAY. There are thousands upon thousands, so why the fixation on this particular case? It's like the whole Laci Peterson case--murder is the leading cause of death in pregnant women, so why the total media blitz on this one case? There was another case in, I believe Arizona? where there was a brain dead baby being kept alive on life support. The mom (poor African American lady) wanted to keep the baby going. The hospital pulled the plug over her protests. There was no outcry over this, and if you blinked, you missed it in the media. So what is the difference in these two cases?
Let the Shiavo woman rest in peace for godsakes! All this bullshit and wishful thinking on the part of her parents that she can be "rehabilitated" is just that--bullshit. If it could have happened, it would have happened in the past 15 years. Her husband has already completed a normal grieving process and moved on with his life. Hard as that is to do, her parents should do the same. And everyone else should just BUTT OUT.
I also agree with the folks who foresee this being twisted into some legislation on abortion.
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Merlin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-05 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
104. What's ridiculous is how much shame liberal elitism brings upon our cause.
It is preposterous and outrageous that there are so many fools on this board who can not grasp the human issues in this situation and who want to impose their ELITIST OPINIONS on a case far away involving a family which deeply loves this woman and BELIEVES a recovery is possible.

Why do you give a damn if they keep her alive?
For Christ's sake let her parents do all they can. They feel it's their duty.
WHO do you think you ARE? A commisar in Soviet Russia?
What the hell do you think FREEDOM is all about?
Must the whole fucking world do EXACTLY as you want it to do just because YOU are so GODAM ENLIGHTENED???

This is EXACTLY why we are losing elections. For all our talk about compassion, so many of us have no idea what it means in a real world situation.

The arrogance and stupidity of the impulse to block this action makes me furious.
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Lisaben2619 Donating Member (193 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-05 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #104
106. Let me get this right...
Your idea of "freedom" is for Right Wing lunatics in this counrtry to make our country into a theocracy so that the person I choose to be MY next of kin is renedered powerless to make medical decisions? If this woman chose not to protect herself with a living will, her choice was that her husband would make said decisions--it's just that simple.

What you're saying is that no matter what decisions we make, the government will decide for us--that's certainly the opposite of freedom in my book.

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Moderator DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-05 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
110. locking
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