Cleft lip abortion done 'in good faith'

[truthpusher]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1439312,00.html

Cleft lip abortion done 'in good faith'
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James Meikle, health correspondent
Thursday March 17, 2005
The Guardian
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Doctors and health officials will consider whether more guidance on abortions is needed following the decision of the Crown Prosecution Service not to prosecute two doctors who authorised a late abortion on a foetus with a cleft lip and palate.

Jim England, the chief crown prosecutor for West Mercia, said the doctors believed, in good faith, that there was a substantial risk the child would be seriously handicapped. "In these circumstances, I decided that there was insufficient evidence for a realistic prospect of conviction and that there should be no charges against either of the doctors," he said.

The inquiry began after a legal challenge over a previous decision by police not to charge the doctors involved in the abortion carried out, in 2001, on an unnamed woman from Herefordshire who was more than 24 weeks pregnant.

(snip)

The Cleft Lip and Palate Association accepted the CPS verdict.

"Our concern was that if it was beyond all doubt that all it was a cleft lip and palate, then we could not understand why a decision to terminate had been taken," said the chief executive, Gareth Davies.

complete story: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1439312,00.html

[politicat]

1. Why is it that people can't mind their own bloody business?

The woman who brought the case had absolutely nothing to do with it.... And everything was legal.

Sometimes I think we need more clue-bats.

[Teaser]

2. England has different standards maybe?

You got me.

[rodeodance]

3. I think this is the same that is happening with KS case where the Att. Gen

is seeking medical records of 20 women--complete medical records from a Planned Parenthood Clinic.
It is probably not the same--expect for the fact that some busybody is involved.

[muriel_volestrangler]

5. Not really the same; it centres on the definition of 'serious handicap'

The foetus was described as having a cleft lip and palate. Sometimes this is associated with more serious problems. As the Cleft Lip and Palate Association said, "Our concern was that if it was beyond all doubt that all it was a cleft lip and palate, then we could not understand why a decision to terminate had been taken". But the Association has accepted that the decision is OK - which may mean that there was some further evidence suggesting greater problems for the foetus.

[Pert_UK]

8. I beg your pardon, but you're wrong........

This woman had an abortion past the legal time limit. She was only allowed to do this because the law in the UK allows for foetuses that are discovered to be severely handicapped to be aborted up to a later deadline than "healthy" foetuses.

The woman who brought this case believed that the disability in question was not anywhere near serious enough to qualify for a legal abortion, and that the doctors had acted illegally.

I support this case, actually, because it's important to test the standards/laws from time to time. Otherwise you'd end up with the very late abortion of foetuses due to all manner of trivial handicaps, purely because the parents wanted a "normal" baby and couldn't be bothered to bring up a child with a minor handicap.

The woman who brought this case believed that she had been born with the same deformity as that suffered by the foetus, but had led an active and fulfilled life. Effectively she wanted to highlight that she would have been aborted for the same reason as this baby was.

[politicat]

11. Cleft palate can be very minor; it can also be extremely serious to the

point of fatality. Not all cleft palates can be corrected properly with surgery, and since CP interferes with the neonate's ability to suckle, it is quite often a life-threatening deformity at the minor stage.

At the more gross deformity levels, CP cannot be fully corrected, condemning a child to a lifetime of gastric feeding, which carries a huge risk of infection, and usually results in the early death of the child from systemic infection. All we know from this article is that the fetus had a cleft palate, not how severe it was. Had it been a 1-2 on the scale of 1-10, maybe it was not a perfect solution to abort. However, if the severity was far higher, and the parent knows she is incapable of providing the effective and needed support for a child that will never be able to live normally, then abortion was the better option.

Regardless, the vicar-trainee was not involved in the decision and had no business using her own prejudices to bring this case. Her interference cannot bring the fetus back to life and cannot change her own state. It is, in my opinion, a case of Mrs. Grundyism run amok.

Pcat

[Blue to the bone]

12. Agreed. Some would consider red hair a handicap. n/t

[SoCalDem]

4. Womb Detectives & Crotch Inspectors are EVERYWHERE

:(

[lynne]

6. I believe that the conflict here -

- has as much to do with the timing as the cleft-lip.

From the article:

"The prosecutor's decision coincides with heated debate over whether the 24-week limit on terminating pregnancy should be reduced. The 1967 Abortion Act allows for later termination if two doctors decide a child would be seriously handicapped."

The article indicates the mother was more than 24 weeks pregnant but does not indicate her actual gestation. Another factor was that a cleft-lip is not normally considered "serious" as it can be fairly easily corrected with surgery.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

7. Aren't Cleft Palets easily corrected now?

A friend of mine had a kid last year with a cleft palet and he's doing great, except he's a devil child, but that has nothing to do with the cleft. :shrug: This is the year 2005 afterall. There are ways to fix that, and even fix spinabifida before the baby is born. Medical technology is amazing.
Duckie

[KansDem]

27. Probably more easily corrected than say 50 years ago...

Several surgeries may be required, from infancy to adulthood.

Other factors to consider:

Orthodontia, sometimes requiring years of work. The skeletal structure of the upper mouth is malformed, causing the teeth to grow erratically, particularly on the side of the cleft. Sometimes, a tooth will need to be turned 90 degrees. Other teeth may grow in at bizarre places, like the roof of the mouth, and have to be removed.

Also, there is a passageway (the "cleft") that connects the upper mouth just behind the front teeth with the sinuses. That should be closed.

Speech therapy is often required for children.

Children will often have more ear aches while growing up, and could develop hearing problems in the ear on the side of the cleft.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have heard that males with cleft lips/palates may have problems with organs that tend to line up in the middle of the body, ie, brain, heart and testicles. I think this has to do with that particular stage of fetal development.

[davsand]

9. You can't know the impact of a cleft lip and palate.

I am horrified at the idea that anybody would think they have the right to interfere in something like this decision. Maybe my visceral reaction lies in the fact that I was born with a cleft lip and palate myself. Maybe it lies in the fact that I was a parent late in life with all the attendant warnings about increased risks of birth defects. Either way, I just want to scream at these people who think they have some mandate to interfere.

I grew up with a mother who was traumatized by the guilt that comes with birthing any child who is less that perfect. Her guilt was compounded by a March of Dimes representative in the hospital who asked her "What did you do wrong?" My Mom always loved and supported me, all the while blaming herself for some medical anomaly.

My parents had borrowed money to have my corrective surgery done by one of the best surgeons they could find. In spite of his skill, I still looked different and kids are never reluctant to point that kind of thing out. I grew up with a lot of teasing from kids about my appearance.

When I was young I remember just feeling like I wanted to die whenever someone started up about my scar. Hearing the term "harelip" would ruin my day. I lived with that for years. Finally, I got to the age of Jr. High when I discovered rage and learned how to fight back. I think maybe those early experiences made me the "uppity woman" that I am today, so maybe that part of it wasn't so bad in the long run, but as a kid I sure didn't see anything positive about it.

My life sorted itself out, and I am blessed with many wonderful people around me. I wear slip on tennis shoes and pants with elastic in the waistband. There are days I don't bother to put in contact lenses and actually go out in public in my glasses. Everything on my body is either going gray or heading south. I am now a middle aged woman. I figured I'd finally hit self acceptance.

A few months ago, my daughter came home from school and told me that one of the kids in her class made fun of her because her Mom "looked funny." My kid is sitting there in tears...

That same feeling of Jr. High rage came flooding back.

To this day, I can't walk into a Dr's office without seeing my blood pressure jump by huge amounts. If you want to see a classic case of White Coat Syndrome, I have it. I can't deal with a trip to the dentist without serious anxiety issues. I have drains in my ears because folks like me have lots of trouble with Eustachian tubes, and my eyesight is not terribly good. I am told that is not uncommon for cleft palate people. I also can't begin to describe the sinus infections that I get...

I am not sorry my Mom gave birth to me, nor do I feel that people with cleft palates should die. I do, however, understand FULLY the parent who chooses not to give birth to a child they KNOW is going to be dealing with a lifetime of corrective surgeries and medical issues. I also understand not choosing to birth a kid who will face a lifetime of emotional injury.

Yeah, cleft plate and cleft lip are correctable, but it is not an easy road to go down for the kid or for the parents. If somebody wants to opt out of it, I would not be able to blame them, in spite of the fact that my life has turned out well.

I just want to ask that busybody in Britain if she REALLY thinks she has the right to make this call for anyone else.



Laura

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lars39]

15. Oh, you're just "winning friends and influencing people" aren't you?

Reading comprehension is sadly passe today.

[daleo]

16. Re-read her post. Here's the key part.

I am not sorry my Mom gave birth to me, nor do I feel that people with cleft palates should die. I do, however, understand FULLY the parent who chooses not to give birth to a child they KNOW is going to be dealing with a lifetime of corrective surgeries and medical issues. I also understand not choosing to birth a kid who will face a lifetime of emotional injury.

Yeah, cleft plate and cleft lip are correctable, but it is not an easy road to go down for the kid or for the parents. If somebody wants to opt out of it, I would not be able to blame them, in spite of the fact that my life has turned out well.

[Just_a_rancher]

17. The child didn't make that choice.

And didn't 'opt out' of anything.

If you want to avoid having a child who experiences a lifetime of emotional injury the only option it to not have children.

How far is this from Gattaca or 1984? Is that the kind of world you want to live in?

[Ronnie]

18. I am always amazed

at people who speak with such certitude on the abortion issue. It must be so satisfying to be so sure you are right.

[Just_a_rancher]

20. Nice avoidal of the issue

"I don't agree with you so rather than address the issue I'm giong to insult you for actually standing for something."

BTW, I never addressed abortion in general. I think it's sickening that people are advocating illegal abortion (this abortion WAS illegal) because their child isn't perfect. It's something that's been coming for a long time and I must admit I'm not surprised. It's still sickening.

[Ronnie]

22. avoidal?

...

[leftynyc]

19. Reading comp isn't your forte - is it?

"You claim that this cleft lip is something that isn't worth living with. "

Where did she say this? Or are you just being an asshole?

[Just_a_rancher]

21. Then explain...

...what's the 'meaning' of her long dialogue about how hard it is to live with a cleft lip and how it justifies the death of this child?

[Bridget Burke]

23. If you had read any of the other posts...

You would realize that cleft palate can be far worse than the situation described by the poster. We don't know the clinical details for the aborted fetus.

Find your own meaning.

[leftynyc]

25. Why don't you ask her rather than putting words in her mouth?

n/t

[The Icon Painter]

26. Your assault

What an extraordinarily cruel comment for you to make. This poster has spoken to us of her painful experience and has suggested that, just maybe, a totally disinterested party is not the proper one to make the ultimate choice in such situations. You sound so abominably certain of your correctness and accuse this woman of such vile motives and unthoughtful decisions that I seriously question your own objectives. Why can you and those like you not simply leave medical and personal choices in the hands of those who must deal with the results thereof? You horrify me with your callous words.

[davsand]

29. You may be direct but, you failed the reading test.

Additionally, you exhibit a limited level of empathy. All in all, I'd place you someplace about average in the human scale, and that leaves you lower than most on this website...

You did, however, prove my point beautifully, and for that I thank you.

There are cruel assholes born every day, and those same assholes presume to know what is best for everyone else on the planet--without having any comprehension of other people's day to day strife. Those same presumptuous assholes tell women how to manage the occupancy of their uterus, tell couples who they can "marry" or presume to tell other people what church to attend.

Late term abortion is a terrible point to begin any discussion and expect it to remain calm. I understand that you hold you views dear--just as I do. What I do not comprehend is your deliberate rudeness or the things you attribute to me that are simply not present in my post.

I have no time or tolerance left for the deliberately ignorant or the assholes of the planet.

I'd like to invite you to have a nice cup of shut the fuck up.


Laura

[w4rma]

13. This was an illegal abortion. Making them illegal doesn't stop them. (nt)

[muriel_volestrangler]

24. Not necessarily illegal at all

It hinges on the medical information available at the time, and the doctors' judgement of whether there was a substantial risk of serious abnormality. We don't have enough information to decide that; it's possible that it's a justifiable medical judgement - in which case, it wouldn't be prosecutable.

[patcox2]

14. I'd put this right up there with using abortion to choose gender

IF it was only because of a cleft palate. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. But its not far from that to red hair, or just about anything.

[AllegroRondo]

28. Interesting twist

it seems that the criteria here is that the doctors believed, in good faith, that the child had a substantial risk of being seriously handicapped.

Lets say that some time in the future, they discover a gene that determines whether your child will be homosexual. Two parents discover that their child has this gene, and feel this is a severe handicap. Thier doctor agrees, and they have an abortion.

Discuss.

[Pithlet]

30. Let's just say

That is decided that women have no reproductive freedom anymore. We can no longer decide when we have children or what happens to our bodies. What happens to society then?

Discuss (Ad Nausium).