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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 12:45 PM
Original message
U.S.-Italy Relations Chilled by Killing of Agent
Edited on Sat Mar-05-05 01:41 PM by leftchick
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20050...


The shooting was the worst diplomatic incident between Italy and the United States since 1998, when a U.S. Marines jet flying recklessly low and fast cut a ski lift cable, killing 20 people.


<snip>


The agent had helped free Sgrena a month after she had been kidnapped and held hostage. Sgrena returned to Rome on Saturday. Calipari's coffin will follow.

"The hardest moment was when I saw the person who had saved me die in my arms," Sgrena's long-time companion quoted her as saying on her flight back to Rome.


Such poignant words are fueling national rage.


Berlusconi, whom the opposition accuses of taking orders from Washington, put on a brave face but leading newspaper Corriere della Sera cited political sources as saying he was furious.



I hope to see lots of these this weekend in Italy!





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riverwalker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
1. the agent who was killed
was married, had two children and was a skilled hostage negotiator.
Bush made a five minute phone call to "express" his concern, five minutes.
The whole incident is a metaphor for his entire Iraq war.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. The Italian Negotiator's Widow....
Edited on Sat Mar-05-05 01:07 PM by leftchick
More blood on bush's hands....



Rosa Maria Calipari, widow of Italian Police officer Nicola Calipari, center , leaves her house in Rome, Saturday, March 5, 2005. Calipari was killed in Iraq (news - web sites) by fire coming from an US armoured vehicle while he was escorting in a car Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena to Baghdad airport after her liberation. (AP Photo/Angelo
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librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #1
29. can't wait to see the movie
hope it's as anti-Bush as this incident would dictate.
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against all enemies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #29
113. The American movie will have her car being driven by a guy in an
Osama mask. Who wouldn't shoot at Osama?
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kitty1 Donating Member (772 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #1
54. I wonder what kind of info this journalist had on operations
going on over there. Could it be that she discovered more than she should have about some covert work that was going down. Maybe, she wasn't supposed to live.
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The Zanti Regent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #54
151. You know our Whore Press will cover it up
Well, I guess Mr Negroponte will have to take his Death Squad leader to the woodshed!
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regnaD kciN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #1
284. Let's hear it for "national rage"...!
People of Italy, in case you don't understand yet: America (as represented by its leaders) doesn't give a shit about you or anyone else living outside God's Favorite Country. You are meaningless pawns, only useful when, like your leader, you can be manipulated into giving us support. So, one of your heroes was killed by our forces for no apparent reason. Who cares? It wouldn't matter to us if it had happened to a thousand of you. Your "national tragedy" will barely merit a story at the bottom of the front page, heavily quoting military sources to make it look like it was your slain agent's fault. Bush will make a perfunctory apology, and it will go straight down the national memory hole. Forget about that -- let's hear more about Jacko and the next NASCAR event.

You foreigners mean nothing to us. Never have, never will. Don't forget it -- now, take that with your Freedom Fries.

:puke:

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NeoConsSuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #284
385. Truer words have never been spoken.. (nt)
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #284
392. Our Republican controlled government doesn't care about anyone INSIDE
America, either. We are pawns to them, and their ultra-wealthy masters, also.
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bluedog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
2. Italy
think they'll pull their troops out now?.........I would......
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cubschicago Donating Member (123 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
12. Well, Berlusconi is finally pissed off
This hit him personally. I hope that you are right on this one. Italy is the third largest force in Iraq. And 90 percent of the population is against the occupation.
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Southsideirish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #12
22. Why is he risking his own position for the sake of "Jr. "? He must be
getting something out of it,maybe in the way of weapons or planes. They don't need our money.
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Jose Diablo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #22
72. P2
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #72
99. Thanks for the great link.....
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chomskysright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #99
190. aMAZING fucking link: go Chomsky!!!
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DixieSticks Donating Member (14 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #99
383. Welcome to George Bush's America...
truely pathetic.
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cubschicago Donating Member (123 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #22
157. I wish I had the answer.
There are a lot of possibilities, but none that I am sure are fact. All I can be sure of is that Italians don't like this war at all and they are not very happy with the excessive involvement Italy plays in it. I am just hoping Berlusconi is finally ticked off enough to pull out of the war.
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lebkuchen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #157
160. W/Berlusconi's billions and his control of Italian media
and the fact that he's a Bush bud, you don't think he had advanced notice of what appears to be another hit on a journalist?

The Italian media is saying he was popping champagne corks over the rescue operation. Was that staged?
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cubschicago Donating Member (123 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #160
201. I definitely don't have all the answers, but
Edited on Sat Mar-05-05 07:16 PM by cubschicago
Nicola was too important and not replaceable. He wouldn't put one of his best at harm's way if this were staged. We are dealing with two countries that leave a lot behind closed doors, so I couldn't tell you what the truth is. Almost no one knows. Who knows if we ever will?

Edit: I shouldn't say 'harm's way', but he wouldn't purposefully have a journalist right next to him assassinated.
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lebkuchen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 06:10 AM
Response to Reply #201
330. point taken
The Colosseum lit up and other fanfare for Sgrena's return was likely Berlussconi's attempt to showcase his "leadership" in the face of constant public pressure to pull troops from Iraq. This was his chance to shine. Bush blew it for him, and now Berlussconi is the goat for being a Bush ally and is under even more pressure to remove Italians from Iraq.

An interesting state of affairs...
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tsuki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #160
336. To be a "Bush Bud" is to get a knife in the back. Everyone
that is associated with Bush gets diminished.
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Pachamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-05 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #336
405. Bush Buds either get the knife in the back or they are constantly reminded
that there is a knife to their back and if they displease * then the knife comes plunging at them....
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cthrumatrix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
3. what is chilling is the "scathing articles on US conduct" -- it was a "hit
http://www.ilmanifesto.it/pag/sgrena/en /

THE NATION CALLS FOR RELEASE OF GIULIANA SGRENA

Florence and the others
GIULIANA SGRENA
il manifesto 14 January 2005

Ten thousand Iraqis in US and British prisons
GIULIANA SGRENA
il manifesto 29 December 2004

Two thousand victims in Fallujah
Giuliana Sgrena, Iraq
il manifesto 26 November 2004

Napalm Raid on Falluja?
GIULIANA SGRENA
il manifesto 23 November 2004

The death throes of Fallujah
Giuliana Sgrena
ilmanifesto 13 November 2004

Stop the massacre
GIULIANA SGRENA
il manifesto 12 November 2004

Bombs and tanks, hell breaks in Falluja
GIULIANA SGRENA
il manifesto 09 November 2004

Interview with an Iraki woman tortured at Abu Graib.
Giuliana Sgrena, our correspondent in Baghdad
il manifesto 01 July 2004

Imminent attack against Falluja
GIULIANA SGRENA
il manifesto 06 November 2004

Flight from a Falluja massacred by bombs
GIULIANA SGRENA
il manifestp 21 October 2004

UN: US crimes in Iraq
GIULIANA SGRENA
il manifesto 05 June 2004


Now ask your self something. Why would the Iraqis who want the US out of Iraq want this woman kidnapped or killed? I smell a Negroponte type "El Salvador" option in action here. This is his MO.

Don

(Pulled from the DU thread)
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Hard to believe otherwise
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Dover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. The U.S. is making a habit of murdering "unfriendly" journalists.
Edited on Sat Mar-05-05 01:03 PM by Dover
Italy isn't the only country to have been 'hit'. And so far there has been no price paid by the U.S.
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. That's bullshit Dover.....prove that our troops have "murdered"...
....journalists. Prove it.
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Reuters has been asking for an investigation
they think there's cause for suspicion.

And Al Jezeera also is suspicious about incidents involving their reporters, in Yugoslavia and in Baghdad (remember the Palestine hotel?).
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. Al Jezeera is suspicious......
.....wow, now that's an objective source.

You people who hate our troops make me want to puke. Sure, there are some bad apples in the 150,000 that are there. Any group of 150,000 people has some bad apples.

Accusing our troops of murder without proof, and believing every negative or wild-ass conspiracy story about them is just one of the reasons why the other side controls the White House, the Senate, the Congress, the Supreme Court and God-only-knows what else.

We're marginalizing ourselves with our own paranoia.
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Laurab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. I don't hate our troops I hate our government
I have a nephew over there. I like him a lot. He's a good kid, who didn't have much of a future, and signed up to defend his country. He says we shouldn't be in Iraq, we should be in Afghanistan. He also says his fellow soldiers feel the same way.

I'm quite sure most of the troops are decent kids just like him, who shrub has decided are disposable, and useful only for cannon fodder. I'm also pretty sure that some of our troops are not as decent, or have been brainwashed into thinking some of the things they're doing are right.

"marginalizing" is an interesting word. A lot of freepers use it. One told me people like me need to be "marginalized". I don't really see it a lot on here, so I couldn't help but notice - that, along with all your posts defending this administration are somewhat curious to me.
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. I haven't defended our criminal administration....I've defended and...
....welcomed good news. Somehow, some on here seem to think that all good news must be the responsibility of the criminal cabal in Washington and therefore only negative news seems to be met with joy.

We are 'marginalizing' ourselves. Look at the election results if you don't believe me.

God Bless your nephew. I wish him a safe and speedy trip home to his loved ones.

On the issue of hating our government, we're in agreement.
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Laurab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. The stolen election results??? n/t
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. That's right, the stolen election. I also forgot that Carl Rove murdered.
....JFK.

Next.
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Laurab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #30
43. Ok it was a fair election
And all those hundreds of thousands of votes that got screwed up were just a little mistake. And all the votes that went to shrub when they pressed Kerry were a mistake, and all the disenfranchised dem voters couldn't vote cause it was a mistake, and now all the bush voters just have buyer's remorse, and that's why his approval rating is so low. And every error was in the shrub's favor by accident. Yeah, right.

I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you, and I'm pretty sure you're on the wrong board.
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #43
48. Oh no, I'm on the right board all right......
....this is the conspiracy board, right?
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #48
167. No "conspiracy" involved...
Edited on Sat Mar-05-05 06:01 PM by Darranar
She was shot. She was not a combatant. It was not a stray bullet.

If one shoots at a car in the United States, where there are plenty of murders and plenty of incidents where cars hit and kill pedestrians, and one kills someone, it is considered murder and should be considered murder.

The same logic applies in Iraq.
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #167
175. Remember Darranar, the mission really hasn't been accomplished...
...it's a war zone over there. The US soldiers have rules of engagement.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #175
181. Which is irrelevant. I do not care about "rules of engagement"...
The ones that take into account human rights tend to be violated constantly. My concern is for what actually happened, not for what some military propagandist says could not have happened thanks to the "rules of engagement."

Wars are full of atrocities, a very good reason to oppose the vast majority of them, but the fact that this is not isolated does not make it any more justifiable.
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #181
184. Did I justify the killing???? No!
It's a terrible tragedy at the least, and perhaps something much greater at the worst.

All I've suggested is that we hold our tongues on accusing our troops of MURDER before we know the facts.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #184
189. What facts do you intend to wait for?
That is what I am missing from your arguments.

What possible truths about this incident that have a significant chance of being factual do you think would excuse the soldiers in question?
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #189
200. How about we hear from the soldiers involved?
Edited on Sat Mar-05-05 06:59 PM by Blue to the bone
Or have you already decided that they're liars as well as murderers?

Then again, it does appear that you believe nothing 'factual' can change your mind.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #200
206. I do not think so, no...
unless the reports I take for truth are in fact not truthful, or something I do not consider significantly possible in fact happened.
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Ouabache Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #200
390. so will the soldiers involved be interviewed ?
by whom?, CNN reporters EMBEDDED by the DOD and RummDumm? That will be thourough, no doubt. /sarcasm off/
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martymar64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #184
344. And if the facts don't see the light of day . . .
through obstruction or cover up, then we can never say anything?

Look at our history. The assassination of JFK was covered up, so we must tow the party line?

Look at the coverups revolving around 9/11. If the gov't wanted to get to the bottom of it, why all of the obstruction to the fact finders.

Look at the facts. The car carrying the reporter had successfully passed multiple checkpoints and the troops were aware that their car was coming. It was not speeding as would a suicide bomber. Hundreds of rounds were fired at the car.

Sounds extremely suspicious. The circumstantial evidence is overwhelming.
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Blue_Roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #175
227. While I do support the troops
some of the "rules of engagement" stink. This wasn't a situation that violence was needed. I think it warrants further investigation. It reeks...
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purduejake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-05 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #175
400. Okay...
Well how often do we hear about these rules of engagement slaughtering innocents? It's always some car full of families that just doesn't stop despite "warnings." In a war zone, especially one where we are loosing, it is not hard to believe they may shoot at anything that moves. This situation is the fault of the administration... the troops are the ultimate victims. I can't say I wouldn't be trigger happy if I dealt with daily car bombings.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #48
368. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
purduejake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-05 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #48
399. So you are a coincidence theorist?
What in the hell is wrong with a lot of us believing that a war criminal and his regime are capable of working together in an attempt to keep journalists away from a country where we circle around entire cities, only let certain people out, and then bomb the hell out of it with explosives and chemical weapons?

I think I first heard the term "coincidence theorist" on AAR. In spite of everything we know about the administration and their will to control, buy off, and manipulate the media, your coincidence theories are suspect, not ours.
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Pachamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-05 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #48
407. This is not the Conspiracy Board...try "Marginalizing" elsewhere....
You are on the wrong forum if you think that this is what the DU is....I suggest you go to http://www.freerepublic.com
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #43
375. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #25
165. We are marginalizing ourselves by being afraid to criticize...
not by over-harsh criticism.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #25
174. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #174
178. Yes, tell that to the Democratic Senators and Congressmen...
...and even to John Kerry, for that matter.

They're thinning the herd people, we are being marginalized with insane murder accusations and conspiracy theories before we know the facts.
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countryjake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 04:29 AM
Response to Reply #178
327. Which "herd" are you speaking of?
The herd of politicians who think it's more important to grab that piece of the pie, keep a comfy office & all the perks that go with it, while upholding a system which touts the "ownership" society, glamorizes a corrupt military, empowers the "law" with unheard of violations of rights, destroys the work ethic under the guise of "free trade", celebrates both consumerism & hopeless debt, rapes world resources in the name of "good economy", & tags, numbers, & files its citizens to "secure" the homeland?

Or did you mean the HORDES of honest, working people who struggle most of their lives to keep one step ahead of the poorhouse & view most elections as hilarious games for the rich? The millions of "have-nots" in this country who know that gap has forever been widening, not because they read about it in some book, but because they've lived right on the edge for generations & can see with their own eyes exactly what the bottom of that chasm looks like!

The smartest thing John Kerry ever did was wag his finger at the military 34 years ago & point directly at the vile government who controlled it! It's only too bad he couldn't have mustered up the courage to make that sort of stand again.
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #327
339. Yes, the herd of politicians you so eloquently described. n/t
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silvermachine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #327
365. Brilliant post
eom
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Misunderestimator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #178
381. LMAO... "we are being marginalized with insane murder accusations..."
You'd rather sit back and wait for a verdict from the US media... or the US government? You'd rather make an assumption about the innocence of these soldiers, or more importantly, the innocence of our government... the government that imprisons thousands of people without trial... that has murdered tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis... that has supressed dissent?

Your claim that we are being marginalized because we seek to find out the whole truth about this episode seems to be a ploy to shame us out of our mission. After all, if we dare talk about this, or ask questions about how our government might have been involved, we're hurting our side... right? :eyes:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #174
235. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #235
245. Is that why you don't like the word?
I'm not afraid to use it because I see it happening.

Look at our numbers in the Congress and the Senate.

It's fucking frightening.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #174
369. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
TheWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #25
366. A lot of the news you have "defended"
Is pure propaganda.

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slor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #14
26. Yeah...why believe anyone else...
when you can just believe the American military. Blind obedience maybe, but it is easier to look in the mirror. Well fuck that! Maybe they control all three branches because not enough people were willing to think this past election, and you sound like you are ready to jump headlong in that direction. It is not a "wild-ass conspiracy story" to suggest that some of our soldiers are doing some bad things. Hell, you even said yourself, "there are some bad apples in the 150,000 that are there. Any group of 150,000 people has some bad apples", so why is this hard to believe? Remember the soldier that said, "the chick got in the way"? Sure maybe it was an accident, but to be so callous about it, says alot too! Yes, this latest incident requires investigation, and we should all wait for the facts. But you can keep your "hate the troops" crap to yourself, because shit like this happens in war, and is made even more senseless when the war could have been avoided!
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #26
33. Oh, he was callous.....mommie....
....he's looking at me. Make him stop.

Damn right this incident needs INVESTIGATION and it's outlandish for us to be accusing our boys of murder until the results are in.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #33
154. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #154
179. It's a shit-hole war zone Madison.....
....people die. Saying something 'callous' is the last thing we should fret about.
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purduejake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-05 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #179
402. For once, I agree with you...
Look... I know that the soldiers sound like monsters at heart when they say stuff that seems callous to us. I have never been in battle, but I've been told that a lot of people deal with the violence by numbing themselves and de-humanizing the enemy -- which in this case is anything that moves toward you that isn't a US vehicle.

Some of our troops do say horrible things, and from only one year in 1 year in Navy ROTC, I suspect a lot of them do. It doesn't make it all-right and I know most on here probably could never imagine taking life and not really thinking about it, but I'm willing to bet a lot of us have not seen battle like in Iraq. Just to live with myself, I'd have to think of the people as less-than-human and I am sure I would struggle once having that mentality, like many vets do.

Perhaps people understand what I am saying, but I'd like to acknowledge the insanity over there while trying to imagine filling their shoes. I believe the administration is directly responsible for ALL of this and limit the responsibility of the people on the ground.
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purduejake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-05 02:11 AM
Response to Reply #33
401. "Boys" and brave women.
And again, you are waiting for accurate results from the US government. According to the people at the top of this government, there are WMD in Iraq.
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Frederik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #14
65. I think Al Jazeera
is at least as objective as CNN and more much more objective than Fox.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #65
81. Al Jazeera has one of the highest reliability factors.
Edited on Sat Mar-05-05 03:14 PM by TankLV
More than almost any other media outlet.

Don't believe me - look at their stories and compare.

At least their more reliable than ANY US media.

Al Jazeera was formed by former BBC "JOURNALIST" - not talking heads like we have - who wanted to form a middle eastern based news agency.

NONE of these JOURNALISTS has EVER been found to speak anything other than the TRUTH.

Wish our media whores could stand up to their caliber.
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Frederik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #81
86. True,
it was formed mainly by BBC journalists and they continue to adhere to the same high standards of journalistic integrity that BBC is known for. I agree that you can't say the same about most US outlets.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #14
78. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Spinoza Donating Member (766 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #14
95. "We're marginalizing ourselves with our own paranoia".
Sadly, true.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #14
169. Do you ever read its English website?
Edited on Sat Mar-05-05 06:07 PM by Darranar
If not, how do you know how objective it is?

Can you understand Arabic?
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truth2power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #14
243. How does a belief that journalists are being murdered
translate to "hating the troops"? I think the US military has been engaged in murdering journalists for some time. That is, the guys at the top have given the orders. The US certainly has motive to keep what's really happening in Iraq out of the public domain. Too many journalists have been offed to be a coincidence.

Can I prove that? Of course not! Given that we have probably the most secretive administration in our history, it's not likely the evidence will ever be available. That doesn't mean one can't speculate, question, and have an opinion in the matter.

Given that we have Negroponte running things over there now, it's dead certain he's ass-deep in the "Salvador Option". Sgrena wasn't supposed to get out of Iraq alive.
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alarimer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #243
367. This is not the first incident either
there was a case where the American military shot up a hotel where non-embedded reporters were staying. There have been a number of reporters killed (I don't know how many but is is quite a few), some of whom were killed by US troops. It is not paranoid to wonder if maybe there is something the US does not want revealed.
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puddycat Donating Member (884 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #14
302. Al Jezeera is certainly just as reliable as any story on Fox News Cable
Fox News -- oxymoron of the century

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Pachamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-05 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #14
406. "You people who hate our troops make me want to puke."
First of all, for someone who has been on the DU for only 3 weeks, you have some nerve to refer to us in general terms or any terms for that matter as such....

No one here hates our troops....we support our troops, we feel for our troops...its people who claim they support our troops and support the fucked up Neo-con Cabal and George Bush who sent them there under misguided false pretenses (try LIES) and who put them in harms way that make us WANT TO PUKE!

Bad Apples? I think the only BAD APPLES are Bush and the Military Brass that have been putting out the orders. Our TROOPS are put in a no win situation right now and quite frankly, if I were there and I knew that at any moment that a car or even a woman coming towards me with groceries could be a suicide bomber, I might be shooting around like a crazed cowgirl too! But your forgetting one little factoid here - there are more than just our "troops" in Iraq....there are also paid contractors (try mercenaries) and there are secret units that are killing units in Iraq sent there purposely to kill, kill, kill anyone they think is an insurgent and there are things your little mind and most Americans could never even imagine going on, and no, that ain't paranoia, that is fact.

:grr:
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Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-05 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #14
417. "you people"?
May i suggest you kept an airsick bag handy, then, because this incident stinks to high heaven.
You don't have to "hate our troops" to see that.

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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Watch the documentary "The Control Room"
Edited on Sat Mar-05-05 01:11 PM by IndianaGreen
The US has purposely targeted journalists, and you can see this on video tape as it happens!

Have you forgotten the Abrams tank firing on the Palestine Hotel during the capture of Baghdad, or do you suffer from the same short term memory as many of our compatriots?
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slor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Can you prove that they have not?
How about that cameraman that was killed last summer, and the firing on a hotel brimming with journalists? Of course all of our troops are not bad, but screw that damn fool logic that says they are all good too!
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. Prove a negative, nice try.
I'm not sure what 'cameraman' you're referring to, but have you ever seen a picture of someone at a distance with an RPG launcher on his shoulder, then compare that to a cameraman with his camera on his shoulder.

It's a war zone. Bad shit happens. People die and things get broken.
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sonicx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. 'bad shit happens' is a lame excuse.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. Al-Jazeera Kabul offices hit in US raid
Stop being a shill for US war crimes! Here is some of the evidence:

Tuesday, 13 November, 2001, 13:48 GMT
Al-Jazeera Kabul offices hit in US raid



The channel says everybody knew where the office was,
including the Americans

The Qatar-based satellite channel, which gained global fame for its exclusive access to Osama Bin Laden and the Taleban, announced that none of its staff had been wounded.

But al-Jazeera's managing director Mohammed Jasim al-Ali, told BBC News Online that the channel's 12 employees in Kabul were out of contact.

Mr Jasim would not speculate as to whether the offices were deliberately targeted, but said the location of the bureau was widely known by everyone, including the Americans.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1653887.stm

US Bombs Al-Jazeera
Baghdad Office - Kills Cameraman
4-8-3


BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Al-Jazeera television said on Tuesday its cameraman Tarek Ayoub was killed during a U.S. air raid on Baghdad which also set the Arab network's office ablaze.

The Qatar-based satellite network said Ayoub, a Jordanian national, died in hospital after he was wounded in a missile strike on Jazeera's office near the Information Ministry.

Another member of Jazeera's Baghdad crew, Zohair al-Iraqi, was slightly wounded. Reuters correspondent Samia Nakhoul had earlier said U.S. planes were bombing targets near the ministry.

"We regret to inform you that our cameraman and correspondent Tarek Ayoub was killed this morning during the U.S. missile strike on our Baghdad office," Jazeera said in a statement read out during its news bulletin.

http://www.rense.com/general36/camm.htm

Journalists organizations demand inquiry

US bombs Al-Jazeera center in Baghdad

By Henry Michaels
9 April 2003

Journalists organizations have demanded investigations into two incidents in which US military forces killed three journalists in Baghdad on April 8, including Al-Jazeera correspondent Tariq Ayoub, and seriously wounded several others. The attacks came amid broadcasts showing some of the mounting slaughter being conducted by US troops throughout the Iraqi capital.

Ayoub, a 34-year-old Palestinian Jordanian, was killed in a direct missile strike on Al-Jazeeras Baghdad offices. Surviving Al-Jazeera staff sought shelter in the nearby offices of rival satellite station Abu Dhabi TV, which then also came under US attack.

At one point, Abu Dhabi TV correspondent Shaker Hamed issued an emergency on-air call for help, saying Twenty-five journalists and technicians belonging to Abu Dhabi television and Qatari satellite television channel Al-Jazeera are surrounded in the offices of Abu Dhabi TV in Baghdad.

Hamed called on the International Committee of the Red Cross, the International Organization of Journalists, Reporters Sans Frontieres and the Arab Journalists Union to intervene quickly to pull us out of this zone where missiles and shells are striking in an unbelievable way.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/apr2003/jaz-a09.shtml
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slor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #16
31. Far less lame than...
"we hate troops" when we point out the bad things that happen.
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Laurab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. I'm not so sure it's bullshit...prove that they haven't
why don't you? I seem to be running into quite a few posts of yours, and believe me, I'm not trying to. The ones I've seen have all defended this administration, even though anyone who knows anything about them knows they cannot be trusted.

Even journalists think they're murdering journalists. Is it just a coincidence - are we THAT inept? I think not. The problem would be proving it, of course. If it could be proven, obviously it wouldn't be done. However, with this administration's track record, It's not a great leap of the imagination to think maybe, just maybe, it's not accidental at all. I put NOTHING past them.
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. I don't defend this criminal administration but I do defend the troops...
...who didn't ask to be sent there.

Too many here in my opinion lash out at anything or anyone that does not conform to their belief of reality.

Well, we can live in our little world if we wish......throwing nothing but negatives on the table and believing every kooky conspiracy theory out there that conforms to our idea of reality.

And the herd just keeps getting thinner and thinner. We're losing and it's our own fault for hating anything that resemebles good news coming out of this country.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Following orders is no excuse for war crimes
We hung and incarcerated German troops that used the same excuse for their war crimes that some American troops, and their apologists back in America, are now making.
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #21
32. So are you saying...
...that the troops that fired on this speeding car were just carrying out order for murder from above?
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #32
39. the troops are shooting at anyone they think is an Iraqi
but the evidence in this particular case suggests something more sinister since it involves the Italian intelligence service, and the Italians had a plane waiting for the arrival of Giuliana Sgrena.

Of course, I don't watch Faux, but I do know that CNN has been adhering to the White House's propaganda line.
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #39
85. So let me get this straight....
....any car driven by an Iraqi is getting fired upon by US troops?

I don't watch either Faux or CNN. What is CNN reporting?
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #85
247. I wonder how much it pains you
to type F-A-U-X instead of FOX?
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #247
393. I don't recall ever typing either word....n/t
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lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #32
97. The military was aware that the reporter
was in transit from the airport. It is hard to believe that the military has such sloppy communication between the troops in this communication age. Is it a problem of poor leadership in the ranks? Too many goofups.
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #97
124. Sloppy communications and military fuckups are much easier....
....to throw on the table as explanations than murder.

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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #124
162. Easier on one's conscience, maybe. But not necessarily more sensible. n/t
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #162
180. It's been implied here that I don't have a conscience therefore...
...I'm not looking for the easy way out. Just the truth before making outlandish accusations against our troops.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #180
187. That would be a legitimate argument against the person who implied that...
I did not, in fact I implied the opposite.

We know the truth already, more or less. US soldiers shot at non-combatants, and killed one.

It is simply wrong to fire at people simply because one does not know they are non-combatants.
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #187
192. Let's see, it's a war zone and US soldiers shot at non-combatants...
....and killed one. That's a first. I don't recall that ever happening before in a war.

But now that you've pointed it out, yes, I would have to agree that it's wrong.

We need to re-think this war thingy.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #192
196. Quoting my post #181...
Wars are full of atrocities, a very good reason to oppose the vast majority of them, but the fact that this is not isolated does not make it any more justifiable.

The fact that this event has company means nothing on a moral level.

I do not see what you are trying to argue. Do you think that this attack, because it was in a war zone, was okay?
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #196
198. No, all I've said is that I believe it serves us better to wait until we..
...know the facts before labeling the troops involved as murderers.

If they're not really murderers, does anyone here think that claiming so makes their lives any easier.

For Christ's sake, we have the relatives of DU members over there right now trying to survive and do the best they can with a war they didn't ask for.

Can't we wait until we know the facts before we paint them with a murder brush?
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #198
205. So how is your "war zone" argument relevant to that? n/t
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #162
216. Or more true.
NT!

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burrowowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #97
209. Yes
it seems Berlu was in communication with DC at the very moment.
Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if Berlu wanted her out of the picture as well since her newspaper is NOT one of his.
I don't blame the troops, they could have been kept in ignorance of the transit and the U$ Admin. LIHOP.
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Laurab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. Don't know if this link will work or not
Edited on Sat Mar-05-05 01:37 PM by Laurab
if it does, you may want to check it out. The italian journalist's companion said the shooting was not accidental. If it doesn't work, you may want to check out the thread on LBN.

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Iraq/0,,2-10-1460_16...
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tlcandie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #23
155. Snipped from your linked article...
<snip>
Rome - The companion of freed Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena on Saturday levelled serious accusations at US troops who fired at her convoy as it was nearing Baghdad airport, saying the shooting had been deliberate.

"The Americans and Italians knew about (her) car coming," Pier Scolari said on leaving Rome's Celio military hospital where Sgrena is to undergo surgery following her return home.

"They were 700m from the airport, which means that they had passed all checkpoints."
<snip>

<snip>
"Giuliana had information, and the US military did not want her to survive," he added.
<snip>
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #18
66. Um....
I hate to spell it out for you, but did you ever consider that the soldiers who are doing these things may be the ones who signed up AFTER 9/11 to "go kill some sand niggers"?

Yes. I've heard that. And these are people who will judge skin color as an indicator of nationality. It could very well be that the men who fired on this journalist's car joined the military specifically to kill people who have darker skin.

(We have police like that right here in the US, so don't try to claim that that couldn't possibly be the case. Such men would be perfect recruits for such actions.)
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ProudToBeLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #18
132. how can you spport the troops?
Supporting the troops is bringing them home to there families.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #132
137. "Support the troops" is a pretext for support of Bush's war crimes
The real support for the troops is to call for their immediate withdrawal.
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #137
194. No it's not just because you say it's so.
I support the troops and think Bush should be tried for his war crimes along with the rest of his corrupt administration.
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countryjake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 05:04 AM
Response to Reply #194
328. Oh yes it is!
Take a look around & read the gazillion signs out there that say, "WE SUPPORT THE TROOPS!" Who exactly are these words aimed at? To say such a thing implies only one conclusion...that there are "others" lurking around who do not support any troops! You either back this War or you don't & those aren't our rules!
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #18
164. So this is "good news"?
Was she never really shot, and the story of her being shot is merely a "kooky conspiracy theory?"

Or perhaps she shot herself, just to smear the US and the troops who didn't ask to be sent there?
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purduejake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-05 02:30 AM
Response to Reply #18
403. Wait...
What good news? Last time I heard, the insurgents outnumbered us and the closer we get to "democracy," the faster troops and Iraqis die.

And I will agree with you and give you some credit for sticking to your guns as somebody with a minority opinion on here. I don't agree with most of what you say and suspect you may be a freeper, but know that I was accused of the same thing in another post for not agreeing with most others, which is rare.

For the time being, I am thinking perhaps you are not so skeptical of the US government because you haven't really been following things it's been doing as closely as the rest of us.
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cliss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #7
52. You've got to be kidding.
If you have been following the news here at DU, in particular the LBN (Latest Breaking News) you will see thread after thread about journalists who have been killed under mysterious circumstances.

The most egregious would be the Palestinian journalist who was standing outside Abu Ghraib prison with a cam corder, filming. Very soon, a US tank came rolling out of the prison. US troops had him in their sights. They shot and killed him.

This is not clandestine stuff. This is just - aim, shoot and kill. Don't ask me for links. Just go look the stuff up in LBN.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #52
218. So much for the "you hate the troops you conspiracy theorist" bullshit.
(Emphasis added.)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,10...

US troops 'crazy' in killing of cameraman

Jamie Wilson in Baghdad
Tuesday August 19, 2003
The Guardian

Journalists who were with a Reuters news cameraman shot dead by US troops while filming outside a Baghdad prison yesterday accused the soldiers of behaving in a "crazy" and negligent fashion.

They claimed the Americans had spotted the Reuters crew outside the jail half an hour before Mazen Dana was killed and must have realised he was not a guerrilla carrying a rocket-propelled grenade launcher.

<SNIP>

The US army, which has launched an investigation, claimed its soldiers thought his camera was a weapon.

But colleagues who were with the award-winning cameraman when he was killed told a different story.

Nael al-Shyoukhi, a Reuters soundman, said the soldiers "saw us and they knew about our identities and our mission.

<SNIP>

Stephan Breitner, of France 2 television, added: "We were all there for at least half an hour. They knew we were journalists. After they shot Mazen, they aimed their guns at us. I don't think it was an accident. They are very tense. They are crazy."

Conspiracy theory MY FUCKING ASS.

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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #7
64. Well, there was the TANK and the hotel....
That's one that sort of sticks out...
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bahrbearian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #7
68. No its up to you to prove they didn't.
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aint_no_life_nowhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #7
75. I don't know about murdering journalists - but the troops have murdered
If we had a true independent press, you would have been seeing it night after night the way these images have been shown in Europe. Just last month, a GI was exhonerated following an investigation of the shooting of an unarmed insurgent prisoner of war. In the video footage, the US soldier is clearly seen murdering a man who is not moving, not armed, and clinging to life. To me it was an intentional homocide without justification or excuse, thereby murder. And there have been many similar incidents. At the beginning of the Iraq war, I remember seeing European footage of a group of US soldiers shooting at a uniformed Iraqi soldier (i.e. not an insurgent) crawling away, unarmed. The US soldiers were engaged in a type of contest to see who could nail the guy first. When they finally shot the crawling man, high fives and cheers rose up. Killing uniformed soldiers hors combat is clearly against the Geneva Convention.
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MrModerate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #7
161. Define murder.
Is putting a tank round into the window of the Baghdad Hotel and killing a pair of journalists "murder?"

Or criminal ineptitude?
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phoebe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #7
203. here's some proof - I heard this interview several times
March 18, 2003: Kate Adie, a highly reputable, veteran war correspondent, says that the Pentagon plans to fire on any satellite uplink points in Iraq, including those being used by independent journalists. Journalists and film crews could be killed or gravely injured if the military acts on the Pentagon plan. A senior Pentagon official confirmed this with "Who cares? . . . They've been warned."

GuluFuture.com, a number of Independent Media Centers, and an interview with Adie on Democracy Now! relayed this information, and a summary and clip of the Democracy Now! show are available at: webactive.com/pacifica/demnow....

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w13rd0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #7
244. BttB...
...please note that Dover didn't say "our troops", he said "the US government". Remember that Rumsferatu has approved the use of apartheid thugs and chilean death squads as "independent contractors" in Iraq. The vehicle they were hit from was a "US armored vehicle", but we don't know for sure who was in the vehicle. Did it flee the scene? No, we don't really know any of this. Heck, the Pentagon "lost" the car that they were in, and those that fired on them and the vehicle they were in? Nothing so far.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. I hope this one does it...
It is painfully obvious to the rest of the world the murdering ways of the Americans in Iraq.
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #5
24. It's not a big deal to be a communist in Italy except to Condi Rice et al.
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Dover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #5
42. Remember when Bush was first campaigning for prez, and he was
Edited on Sat Mar-05-05 02:17 PM by Dover
accidentally overheard (on microphone that was left on) commenting to a fellow GOPer, spewing some four letter words directed at one of the "unfriendly" reporters spotted in the crowd? I believe this attitude is pervasive in this administration and comes directly from Bush/Cheney.

Their hostility to the press and desire to control information is very apparent...which is why they have had to plant so many of their own in the press corp and in the creation of their own self-serving blogs. Control and intimidation is the name of their game.
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procinderella Donating Member (110 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #3
242. Wow!
Calling the war like you see it. And more cities are to to be bombed soon. Stop the madness. Stop the hate. Believe in one another and the goodness that has been and will be again.

Peace to everyone. Italy, we too mourn.
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #3
288. Hit with a capital "H". (eom)
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TexasUnderground Donating Member (85 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #3
343. If it's a hit, why isn't she dead?
Why was she taken to a US hospital instead of an Iraqi morgue? It would've been simple enough for the US "hit squad" to walk up to her after wards and carry out the Coup de Grace. Or do you think the "death squad" had second thoughts once they approached the vehicle?

Occams razor suggests two simpler explanations: someone got trigger happy and lit up the vehicle or the vehicle approached the checkpoint at a high rate of speed and did not respond to signals to stop and got lit up.

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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #343
371. Oh, stop it
If you read through this entire thread (a daunting prospect, I admit) you will find there is incontrovertible evidence that the car was not speeding, there was no checkpoint, and nobody signalled the car to stop before it was shot full of 300-400 bullets.

And after that incident, with Italian troops standing a few hundred yards away, and probably numerous other onlookers watching, you think that one of the killers is then going to finish off the wounded people.

She wasn't even taken to a U.S. hospital until after all the cell phones in the car were confiscated.

But you sure do have all the talking points down pat. Bravo!
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TexasUnderground Donating Member (85 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-05 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #371
410. Oh please
"If you read through this entire thread (a daunting prospect, I admit) you will find there is incontrovertible evidence that the car was not speeding, there was no checkpoint, and nobody signalled the car to stop before it was shot full of 300-400 bullets."

Sgrena's own words are not "inconvertible" evidence. Looking at pictures of the vehicle, it doesn't look like 300 to 400 bullets were fired into the vehicle. More like 10 to 20, if that many. All into the engine block.

Talking points?! You must mean common sense.

If I were a diabolical neocon and wanted to get rid of Sgrena, I would do one of the following: dress up some troops like an insurgent group and cut her head off and send it in to Al Jazeera, or
have a car bomb go off next to her vehicle, or just have her plain disappear. I would not have her vehicle shot up and her not even killed by some US troops at a checkpoint. That strikes me as rather incompetent, and I think this administration and the CIA are fully capable of being diabolically competent.
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-05 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #410
411. What pictures? I haven't seen any pictures--Link please
And if those "10 or 20" bullets all went into the engine block, then how did Nicola Calipari get shot in the back of the head?

Yes, you're right. The military always gets its man. Why, just look at Osama bin Laden.

Uhhhhh....well, maybe not such a good example.

Okay, let's look at Mullah Omar, last seen seen riding a motorcycle outta town?

Uhhhh...gosh, he's still on the loose, too.

In fact, General John Pershing never got Pancho Villa, either.

Funny how your dress up troops theory sounds so much like what has been said about the Berg video. And I never said anything about the CIA. The point was to make it look like just another tragic checkpoint accident, and if all the people in the car had died, that would still be the story.

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TexasUnderground Donating Member (85 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-05 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #411
415. AP video
misleading never mind. Nothing to see here, move along.

Car has disappeared, which makes it look bad for the US.

Anyway, soldiers were right there. If they managed to kill the body guard, they should've been able to kill Sgrena...if that had been their intent. Unlike Pancho, Osama, and Omar, she was in their hands.
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-05 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #415
416. Where is the LINK???
Edited on Mon Mar-07-05 04:06 PM by Ms. Clio
Around these parts, we don't just take anyone's word for these things--so where is your PROOF?

LINK TO THIS VIDEO--we all want to see it.

On edit: So how do you explain this? When did the AP take this video?

"When The Associated Press in Baghdad asked the U.S. military to see the vehicle on Saturday, the military said it didn't know where it was."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/2005...






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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-05 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #415
418. Yes, in fact, it is misleading
Edited on Mon Mar-07-05 06:21 PM by Ms. Clio
That is the car she was kidnapped out of, not the car that was shot to hell. Edited to add that the actual car is now on its way to Italy for forensic examination.

Nice try, though. So which rightwing blog did you get that information from, anyway?
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Rainscents Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
13. I am so sad for the killed family and heart goes out to them.
Unfortunately, Bush and the company don't give a shit who they kill and how many they kill.
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
28. Does anyone here really believe that this incident was motivated...
...by a desire to MURDER this woman?

Do you really believe that?

I don't.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. So you choose to believe Rumsfeld over the Italians?
If a fascist like Berlusconi is pissed about this, you can bet that this was no accident!
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. Don't put words in my mouth IG.....
...I don't believe Rummy for a damned thing he says. Berlusconi is probably pissed because he now looks like an idiot for agreeing with our idiots.

I'm pissed because before an investigation is done, we're accusing our troops of murder.

If they wanted to murder the woman, why didn't they just put a bullet through her head as she sat in the car?
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. The entire invasion of Iraq was wholesale murder!
If you can't comprehend such a basic fact, no wonder you are having trouble understanding the depth of the anger the entire world feels towards America.

I hope this incident will force Berlusconi to pull all the troops out of Iraq. At least no more Italian blood will be shed by American bullets!
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. Nice shift there IG, but your gears are stuck. n/t
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #44
51. You can't hide your views behind a Kerry avatar
You have yet to reply to my posting of several stories about the US military targeting the media in Iraq and Afghanistan. All you have been doing is stick to the Pentagon line, ignoring even the news that is coming out of Italy.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #51
74. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #74
80. Yeah right, bah....
....they're out to murder the woman but don't finish her off as she sits in a disabled car.

IG's response: The whole war is murder.

The whole war stinks. I'll just wait until it's proven that our military targeted this woman before calling them murderers.

That's not left, nor right, it's the decent thing to do to those who are forced to defend their lives on a daily basis in a war they didn't ask for.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #80
96. She had a dead guy on top of her
in all probability the shooters thought they occupants of the car were all dead or dying. They didn't count on the Italians that were awaiting for the car at the airport.
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burrowowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #80
210. If they had finished them off
Edited on Sat Mar-05-05 08:30 PM by burrowowl
then it would really look like an assasination rather than accidental manslaughter.

Edited to add accidental manslaughter.
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #80
353. who is going to "prove it"
the Americans? :crazy:


....one of the countries that does whatever we tell them?


....the Iraqis? are you going to believe them?


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anitar1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #80
376. Your wording sounds familar, blue To the Bone
I was on a long thread last night on DU and cannot remember the title at this time. But a member was doing a lot of posting just as you have been doing, and the language was so similar, that it seems uncanny. But that poster had a different name.
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #376
377. Yes, it was I who was posting. I'm also IndianaGreen. n/t
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #44
225. Might be a shift, but technically she's right, unfortunately.
NT!

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MadisonProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-05 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #36
395. Did it ever occur to you that maybe the soldiers that fired
the 300-400 rounds into the car had been given limted information? Perhaps they were told the car was carrying 'terrorists' and that it should be stopped by any means?

Let's demand to know who gave them the orders!
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #28
35. yes of course...
Edited on Sat Mar-05-05 01:47 PM by leftchick
have you read anything she has written? I would guess you haven't or you would not even be asking this question. She has documented case after case of US atrocities in Iraq and especially the destruction and killing of thousands in Fallujah. Let's just say the US Military was not real happy to see her leave the country to tell her tales of US war crimes.

You sound like you side with the US version of events. So be it.
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. So why didn't they kill her as she sat in the car? n/t
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #37
53. Has it ocurred to you yet that Iraq is FUBAR?
half-assed instructions from half-assed officers to the poor grunts who don't know wtf to believe or wtf fuck is going on most of the time? Hard to make sense out of a senseless situation.
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #53
70. Yes, that's occurred to me. It's also occurred to me that our troops...
....are doing trying to survive day to day in a tough situation that they didn't ask for.

Some may wish to believe they're murderers. I don't.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #70
152. some are and some are not..
that is life.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #70
212. has it occured to you that we are RAPING, TORTURING and MURDERING
men, women and children over there, yet?

no, of course not, war is hell right?

:puke:

peace
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #37
229. Because it would LOOK OBVIOUS, maybe?
I mean, do you even think about the questions you ask?

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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #229
239. Apparently isn't really interested in the answers, either n/t
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #229
246. Look obvious? Why would that stop them?
After all, if that patrol was nothing but a death squad, then what's to worry about? Do you job boys, murder those people, how will anyone know? It was a shoot out in the streets.

If anyone complains, just murder them too, right. You're a death squad.

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MadisonProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-05 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #246
396. Man, you are incorrigible.
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TexasUnderground Donating Member (85 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #229
348. Well
apparently this "hit" looked obvious to you and a bunch of others, so why not finish her off? Sloppy and stupid if it was a real hit, which makes me think it wasn't, just a big cock-up.
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librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #28
38. no
Edited on Sat Mar-05-05 01:54 PM by librechik
and of course there is no proof that we could produce that would show absolutely that the US was involved in the original kidnapping.

Nevertheless, citizens need to be aware and not blind to history. We know that the CIA and other unnamed covert ops groups have reasons to inflame and assist (if not stage) "insurgent incidents" in order to justify the continued occupation. We also know that they have done so many many many times in the past. We also know that many many many of these incidents were tolerated by THESE VERY SAME LEADERS (Negroponte and Abrams) notoriously and shown in open court.

Now they are back in charge. Do you really expect anyone anywhere to believe that they are not repeating the horrendous sadistic "blunders" that they got away with so painlessly 20 years ago? When they now have a motive to do the same?

Fool me once...

The killing itself seems to me to have been a stupid, tragic accident, more indicative of the general fuckup-and-ignore-the-fuckups strategy the US is following in Iraq.

After all, what is the definition of a "military checkpoint" in this war? There are no towers, no blockades, nothing to show it is a place where the US soldiers hang out. That would invite attack.

No, a military checkpoint is anywhere a soldier is standing, waving his arms, and then shooting at you. That's why so many Iraqis make the mistake of trying to speed through. They think they are being attacked out of nowhere in the middle of the night by armed men and they run. Our guys have orders to shoot when they do that. No doubt the driver in this incident was doing the same thing.

Is this the kind of action we want our kids to be involved in? Is this the face of the US we want to show to God at the end of history (if such it is)
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #28
67. The few bad apples are rotten right to the core of the WH
What think tank did you drop out of?
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Frederik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #28
76. I think,
considering the information we have at this point, that it is a possibility, in light of all the other "unfrienfly" journalists who have been targeted. They were shot without warning from an armoured vehicle, and it wasn't a checkpoint and they weren't speeding. Doesn't sound like the soldiers (in the armoured vehicle) had any reason to panic. So if they didn't know who they were shooting at, that means they pretty much shoot at anything that moves, just for the hell of it. This is my assessment based on the information we have at this point.

It wouldn't necessarily have been ordinary soldiers who did it. Let us not forget that Doanld Rumsfeld has created an "SS" force to do dirty work for him. And that the "Salvador option" is "being discussed", meaning death squads. It has been done before. In Italy, in the 70s, the CIA in cooperation with Italian right-wing groups, killed innocent people and staged terrorist events and blamed it on the Communists. They killed left-wing journlists. This is not tin-foil stuff but cold, hard facts.
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lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #76
110. Looks like you might have nailed it.
The occupation has been out of control since the beginning. We have seen plenty of video showing the hoo haw boys celebrating the kill. Leadership is the key.
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chomskysright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #76
355. sorry: I think it was Rummy's special hit squad....
and not the soldiers.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #28
84. Stop her at all costs. Murder. Yes.
So far, the track record of this criminal misadministration has proven these thoughts 100% correct.

100%.
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tlcandie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #28
156. Read this and tell me you STILL believe they did NOT intend for her to die
http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Iraq/0,,2-10-1460_16...

><snip>
Rome - The companion of freed Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena on Saturday levelled serious accusations at US troops who fired at her convoy as it was nearing Baghdad airport, saying the shooting had been deliberate.

"The Americans and Italians knew about (her) car coming," Pier Scolari said on leaving Rome's Celio military hospital where Sgrena is to undergo surgery following her return home.

"They were 700m from the airport, which means that they had passed all checkpoints."
<snip>

<snip>
"Giuliana had information, and the US military did not want her to survive," he added.
<snip>
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regnaD kciN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #156
292. But we were "shooting at the engine block" to stop the car...!!!
:eyes:

I'd like to know how it's possible to supposedly shoot at an engine block and kill or wound every single passenger in the car while doing so!

:grr:

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MrModerate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #28
166. I don't know what to believe.
Except that anything that comes from lying shits like Bush and Rumsfeld -- especially anything embarassing or incriminiating -- is probably not true.

As in "How can you tell George Bush is lying . . . ? His lips are moving."

And we may never know, or never know with confidence. But if they're saying that a car full of security professionals failed to respond to multiple warnings and attempted to blow past a heavily armed checkpoint, I say, "how stupid do you think we are?"
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #28
223. I certainly believe it COULD have been, yes.
As I (and MANY others) posted upthread, this has happened before.

Do we know for sure? No. Is it possible? You'd have to be blind to think otherwise.

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Charles19 Donating Member (353 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #28
386. Difference of reporting in the US and Outside...
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/03/06/italy.iraq/i...

She then thought of something her captors had told her:
"The Americans don't want you to go back."

http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=news&cat=8&id=3299...

'The Americans don't want you to return alive to Italy.'"


There is a big difference in the wording there, don't you think?

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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #386
387. That's a giant difference in the wording. The gravity of the incident has
intentionally been watered down in the CNN report.
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Charles19 Donating Member (353 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #387
391. Directly quoting they should have got it right but
instead they are watering it down. The state of journalism in this country gets worse every day.
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
41. Come on guys, why didn't they murder her as she sat in the car?
Their orders from above were to murder this woman, after having released her (remember, we kidnapped her as well), so why didn't they put a bullet through her head?

Why didn't they kill the other guy too? Dead men can't talk.
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librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #41
45. it looks like they tried
and didn't manage to do it.

Unless it was a tragic accident.

right?
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. What's so difficult about putting a bullet through her head?
They hauled her out of the car and sent her to a hospital.

If their orders were to murder her, why didn't they finish the job when they found her wounded in the car?

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Frederik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #47
83. Again,
I don't know whether it was an accident or an attempted murder, but if it were the latter, for the sake of speculation, it would probably be imperative to make it plausably look like an accident and at the same time let it be sufficiently transparent to serve as a warning. A bullet through the head at close range would be difficult to explain.
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #83
106. Another thoughtful post Frederik, but....
....since when would murderers need to explain anything.

Afterall, we've heard from some here that this event was akin to some sort of goon squad tracking down this woman to execute her.

If that's the case, they surely failed miserably.

It all just doesn't add up. I don't know what the real story is, but I'm inclined to give our troops the benefit of the doubt before writing them off as murderers.
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Frederik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #106
142. I 'm inclined to agree
about the benefit of the doubt, even under these unusual circumstances. But your comment, "since when would murderers need to explain anything", well, if they were members of the US military they certainly would have a lot of 'splainin to do if she was found shot through the head at close range? And I've speculated (just speculating) about the possibility that the troops in question were simply (deliberatly) not told that an Italian vehicle would pass them. That still doesn't explain the seemingly unprovoked attack from an armoured vehicle which was not at a checkpoint.

I am in no way suggesting that the troops acted alone, shooting at an Italian journalist that they had been told to let pass. THAT is ridiculous. I don't think anyone is suggesting that. Either it's a miscommunication (screw-up), or they were deliberately not told that the Italians were coming, or they were some kind of "assassination patrol" (I know, sounds corny but Rumsfeld has just initiated such a force; it's called P2OG. I agree that they failed miserably if that was indeed what it was).

I would go with the screw-up explanation as default option, but there just doesn't seem to have been any reason at all to open fire, if we are to believe the journalist's account. It should certainly be interesting to hear the soldiers' account of what happened.
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #142
144. Bingo! Ding ding ding ding ding....
Has anyone posted an account from the soldiers involved.

Perhaps so, but I haven't seen it, other than someone getting all outraged because one of the soldiers said something 'callous'.

Please post a link if you can find one.

Frederik = Voice of Reason
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Frederik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #144
148. The thing is,
last time I checked the Pentagon wouldn't say which troops were involved, what unit they belong to etc. So I don't think such an account is available yet.
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #148
182. Fair enough, then we should demand that the Pentagon make them...
....available.

After all, they managed to come up with a soldier trying to support their contention that those explosives were moved out of that Iraqi bunker BEFORE our troops arrived, even though all evidence pointed elsewhere.

They're not supposed to play politics with our soldiers, but they sure did in that case.

I say they should produce those involved. Let's hear their side of the story and look into their eyes as they tell it.

We deserve that much.
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martymar64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #106
347. Just like when the CIA tried to murder Castro
Not all murder attempts succeed. Doesn't mean they didn't intend to.

Perhaps there were too many witnesses in the are a to shoot her point blank. After it was right next to the airport.

Why are you so quick to tow the party line.

Can you say Cognitive Dissonance?
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lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #47
111. That is a dumb question
Rather obvious that they didn't 'finish the job' when they found her wounded in the car.
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #111
120. Yes, true, they just didn't finish the job. Glad we cleared that up. n/t
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #47
230. That is so disingenous
Edited on Sat Mar-05-05 10:21 PM by Ms. Clio
Sure, they are going to put a bullet in the head of a wounded woman with numerous witnesses on the scene.

Nobody is fooled here, "Bluey."
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #230
252. Hey Clio, it's a death squad, remember?
WTF do they care about witnesses? Kill them too!

Can't have it both ways, can you?
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #252
254. Actually, no, it was just a terrible, terrible "checkpoint accident"
Remember?

Can't have it both ways, Bluey.
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #254
257. Perhaps it was.........
I don't know, I wasn't there and haven't heard both sides of the story.

You apparently have gathered enough information to finalize your decision about the matter.
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #257
259. Well, let's see, we have the victims' side of the story
And the official Pentagon version--how many more sides do you think there are? Or do you think the soldiers are going to say something different than the Pentagon?
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #259
264. Yes, the soldiers might say something different...it happens...
...or perhaps you'd rather have the word of a Pentagon spokesman in Washington. I wouldn't. Until we hear what the soldiers have to say, then we don't have the whole story.

If the Pentagon refuses to let them speak about the incident, then they're hiding something.
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #264
266. And if the Pentagon does let them speak
and they just happen to confirm the Pentagon's version, why then they must not be hiding anything at all.

Gosh, I wish I could live in fantasyland, too--sounds like such a simple and happy place.
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #266
270. Nope, I guess you got 'em red handed Ms. Clio....guilty. n/t
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #270
274. Yes, it would seem so n/t
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MadisonProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-05 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #264
397. BINGO!
"If the Pentagon refuses to let them speak about the incident, then they're hiding something"

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silvermachine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #47
372. You know...
...being intentionally obtuse is a rather ineffective way of arguing your already untenable position.
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Ripley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #41
46. CAN YOU SAY INCOMPETENT?
jesusfuckingchrist! Like we're supposed to explain why they didn't kill her earlier? Why did they unload on this car when it was expected and the Italian soldiers were WAITING for her at the airport?

If it was a mistake, it would be rather coincidental. The few bad apples has become a god damned pestilence-filled orchard.
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #46
49. You're right, if we also kidnapped, why didn't we just lop off her head?
I hadn't thought of that one.

You're right, in addition to being murderers, our troops are incompetent.
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Ripley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. You don't think it is a sign of incompetence for soldiers to continually
shoot and kill civilians? They weren't underfire from this car. The woman says they were not speeding. This has happened time and time again where our soldier shoot first and then find out oops, there was a family of 6 including babies that they shot to death.

I didn't say they kidnapped her or beheaded people. Funny how you are now making blanket statements about all DUers.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #50
55. She also said that the shooting did not come from a roadblock
but from a patrol. The plot thickens as each Administration lie falls like dominoes.
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #55
63. So why didn't they put a bullet through her head as she sat in the car?
Explain that part of the 'plot'.

Afterall, they send out a patrol to hunt her down and kill her after the CIA released her from captivity.

Quite a plot all right.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #63
71. Perhaps they thought they were all dead
Edited on Sat Mar-05-05 02:55 PM by IndianaGreen
and the patrol left before other troops arrived.

One can only speculate, but one thing is certain by now: there was no roadblock and no speeding car, therefore the part of the Pentagon's story about warning shots and flashing lights is not supported by the facts.
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lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #63
119. You are right,, Blue.
We don't have all the facts of this sorry incident and probably won't ever have them. It has been pretty well established that the car was fired on by US troops whether by incompetance, accident or what have you. The only conclusion that one can make, is that due to the fact many people have been unjustly killed, is that it is a matter of incompetance, deliberate or troops completely out of control. Who is responsible?
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #119
123. Who is responsible? We all know who is responsible!
Bushco and his criminal cabal who are profiting from this war. That's who's ultimately responsible.

Oh, I forgot, the buck doesn't stop there.
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #50
56. You didn't say it, but another poster proposed the idea that the....
Edited on Sat Mar-05-05 02:21 PM by Blue to the bone
....CIA had kidnapped the woman.

A sign of incompetence for soldiers to continually shoot and kill civilians?

Well, let's see.

I'm a soldier in Baghdad and every day, sometimes several times a day, a civilian drives a car into a group of US soldiers, or Iraqi soldiers, or civilians and blows up the car.

SOP is that when a car approaches and fails to yield to assorted signals to stop, it is best to assume that the driver has something nasty in mind, like turning my body into ground meat.

So I follow SOP, the car continues to approach, and I'm finally faced with disabling the car and possibly killing or injuring the occupants, or losing my life.

No, I don't think they're incompetent. I think they're doing the best they can in a very bad situation that is not of their making.


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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #56
77. a soldier in Baghdad - oh...
got internet access and all... how much time do you get online a day?

is it true that rummy BANNED picture cell phones?

if not can you post images at my image blog? i'm sure MANY would love to see whats goin on over there from the boots on the ground.

:hi:

peace
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #77
92. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #56
281. Bzzzzz! Lies again. Wrong answer.
"SOP is that when a car approaches and fails to yield to assorted signals to stop, it is best to assume that the driver has something nasty in mind, like turning my body into ground meat."

1) The car was NOT approaching at high speed.
2) The car ALREADY passed ALL the checkpoints.
3) The car was continuing on to WAITING ITALIAN TROOPS.

These points are not in doubt. These points have already been proven.

Just how much shit do you intend to post here that has already been disproven?
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MrModerate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #49
171. Excuse me, but you think our troops are competent?
One-on-one, yes -- I've seen them in action at Baghdad checkpoints and that was my perception (course I'm not military so I don't really know).

But they kill waaaaay to many civilians, and those civilians all seem to suicidally charge checkpoints with their cars full of children.

It's leadership. And their leadership sucks from the top on down. And at the top, the leadership is CAPABLE OF ANYTHING. There is nothing these fucks won't do. And that includes putting some of their special guys in an armored vehicle on the way to the airport and taking out a single auto. Or trying to.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #41
91. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #91
93. So why do you think I'm in the wrong forum? n/t
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Spinoza Donating Member (766 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #93
103. Sadly,
I was expecting to hear from posters that you "don't belong" even earlier. Now it's starting. I'm actually surprised you have made it to 300+ posts.

I don't necessarily agree with everything that you have to say, but what does that have to do with your right to express a legitimate opinion? For Gods, sakes simply saying that there should be a non-biased INVESTIGATION before jumping to conclusions is NOT exactly a wing-nut position. Why are so many people here so damn intolerant of different, albeit still LIBERAL opinions?
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #103
114. Thank you Spinoza, and I mean that.
No two posters will ever agree on everything, that's for sure.

I'm not happy about this war, who could be except for those in Washington how are profiting from it personally.

You hit the nail on the head though, I don't see how automatically jumping to the conclusion that our boys are guilty of murder helps anyone, especially those who are struggling to survive in that God-foresaken country on a day to day basis.
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Ripley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #103
117. Because it is not a liberal position to accept soldiers targeting civilian
Do you know that if there had not been an outcry from foreign press and Sy Hersch (a journalist) there would have been no investigation into Abu Graib? Why do you trust this administration, this Pentagon, this cabal running things in Iraq to 1) conduct a "non-biased" INVESTIGATION (whatever the hell that is), 2) admit to mistakes or corruption and 3) change their ways? Tell me again how many officers or civilians in charge were courtmartialed and forced to resign after Abu Graib came to light?

How do you explain the American soldier who shot and killed a journalist who was holding a camera on his shoulder and had a press badge on his chest, when the soldier was looking at the journalist through his sniper scope? The "official investigation" said it was an accident. How can a soldier looking through a scope at the guy mistake him for a terrorist? Yes, war is hell, the fog of war, blah blah blah. I believe there is an unprecedented number of journalists being killed in Iraq. Strange how that could be when 99% of them are embedded and protected by the Marines. Dan Rather was on his own in Vietnam, as were most journalists then. Why would the numbers go up in this new embedded scenario? Why are the journalists always "accidently" shot in areas of extreme controversy...i.e. Abu Graib prison and Fallujah?

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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #117
129. On the specific issue of how an American soldier could make that mistake..
....I recall seeing a piece on PBS many years ago about journalists who put their lives on the line in war zones.

One segment showed the profiles of two different guys. One was holding a camera, the other holding some sort of shoulder-fired weapon, RPG, don't recall the exact type, but the result was the same. From a distance it was difficult to tell one from the other.

Looking through a scope at the target does make it harder to explain, though you'll also find numerous instances of deer hunters with high powered, scoped rifles, killing other hunters ever year.

If it can happen under the quiet conditions of deer hunting, I can imagine it happening in the chaos of war.

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Spinoza Donating Member (766 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #117
130. Yes, there SHOULD be an outcry.
There IS an outcry. Now lets have an unbiased investigation before jumping to any further conclusions. Whats unfair about that?
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silvermachine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #103
373. Why is it...
Edited on Sun Mar-06-05 02:52 PM by silvermachine
...that low posters (admittedly, I don't have a TON of posts but I have been on this board for years now) that always defend this administration often seem to use a pic of MLK Jr. to deflect analysis of their real views and purpose for being on this board? Kind of like a chronic drunk driver that puts a M.A.D.D. bumper sticker on their car in hopes that the cops won't pull them over when they are driving erratically.

I should probably mention that about half of my posts were flame war arguments with Frodo...those were the days, lol.
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w13rd0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #41
249. You are really stretching...
...first you say, "Stop hating the troops, we don't have all the facts!" But then as the "facts" start rolling in, you spin like a top... What's up with that?
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #249
250. Have you heard what the troops involved have said?
If so, post it please.

If not, then we don't have that side of the story, do we?
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w13rd0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #250
253. And we never will...
...but there's a reason for that. The Pentagon can just keep changing its story to fit discovery of evidence. Earlier, the car was shot, then it was on fire. What's the story now? Why hasn't the Pentagon released any information about debriefing of those involved? Do they have any? Isn't it in our diplomatic interests to ferret out the truth if there's no US policy behind it. Bush doesn't seem to object to grinding up a few bad apples if it saves his money tree. Why don't we see any grinding?
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #253
261. I beg to differ.
I recall watching in horror one night right after we took control of Baghdad as a US convoy was approached by a car on the highway.

The soldiers inside the truck motioned and yelled at the driver to back off. He didn't. They then fired shots in front of the car and he still refused to back off.

They then sent a volley of bullets into the car and it crashed on the side of the road.

A terrorist? Nope, a family. Killed a bunch of 'em too.

But you know what, I saw an interview with surviving members and I saw an interview with the two soldiers.

I think we will hear from those who did the shooting and until the Pentagon says we won't, then I'll hold off on finding them guilty of attempted murder.
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Dover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
57. Control of information.....through intimidation or murder if necessary..
Edited on Sat Mar-05-05 02:52 PM by Dover
is the name of the game with Bushco. They've managed to succeed so far, and unless journalists and those who would protect these freedoms unite....this will continue until there is no free and independent information available anywhere.

If they feel they have to plant and payoff journalists and 'purchase' whole networks in order to promote their radical agenda then you can be sure that intimidation and murder is simply another means to their end. Propaganda is their main tool. Why would anyone underestimate that potential, given Bushco's long list of dirty laundry with regards to the media?

And I wonder if the soldiers involved in the targeting of journalists are special forces rather than regular military.

Bush is right about one thing. This IS a war about FREEDOM.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. Well, to use the logic of some here, prove he's not involved. n/t
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #58
61. The crap is your being in denial about the killing of journalists
as I stated in my reply to you here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Instead you continue to adhere to the Pentagon's Talking Points despite the mounting evidence to the contrary.
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. I've not denied the killing of journalists.....
Edited on Sat Mar-05-05 02:33 PM by Blue to the bone
...journalists die in every war.

I just chose to not accuse our troops of murder until the facts are in.

I guess you've already completed your investigation of this latest incident.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #62
73. yeah, you just think that it wasn't a policy of the U.S. government
Edited on Sat Mar-05-05 03:00 PM by bpilgrim
against all information to the contrary, which is pretty common by M$MWs and their consumers as well these days :crazy:

not a common trait round DU though... we got a PAPER TRAIL ;->


http://images.globalfreepress.com

peace
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #58
69. lol
Edited on Sat Mar-05-05 02:50 PM by bpilgrim
yeah... it's all in our heads :crazy:

http://images.globalfreepress.com

_|_

peace
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #69
79. .....is Gannon ghost around or what?
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #79
82. You do seem strangely fascinated by the guy. n/t
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #82
87. You come home every time I whistle....well ya kind of sound
like that misstater. Probably not as fascinated as junior and Rove are!
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #87
88. Like I said, I'm a cork socker. Are you really surprised about Rove? n/t
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #58
89. Oh really? Name him. We'd like to know.
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #89
90. Who needs evidence?
He's in the military, he's in Iraq. That should be proof enough, shouldn't it....at least by the standards of some of this forum.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #90
289. It's YOUR claim. It's another one of YOUR lies.
I noticed YOU didn't name him.

Caught you in ANOTHER LIE.

You are sooooo transparent now.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #58
94. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #94
98. Personal reference? Where?
I get insulted all the time on here. Are those not personal references?

So now I have to go to the principal's office?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #98
102. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #102
104. Still here?
As in able to post? Studying? Actually, reading some of the links.
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Placebo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
100. This entire thread is sickening...
blaming our troops and calling them murders, saying this was a "hit job" before all the facts are in...sickening.

There's a fine line between rational outrage over a tragic event like this, and reckless hate fueled by intense paranoia...this thread has crossed that line.
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #100
101. Is yours a trick post?
I ask because I agree 100% with you.

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Spinoza Donating Member (766 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #101
107. I'm also surprised.
See my post #103.
("I was expecting to hear from posters that you "don't belong" even earlier. Now it's starting. I'm actually surprised you have made it to 300+ posts.

I don't necessarily agree with everything that you have to say, but what does that have to do with your right to express a legitimate opinion? For Gods, sakes simply saying that there should be a non-biased INVESTIGATION before jumping to conclusions is NOT exactly a wing-nut position. Why are so many people here so damn intolerant of different, albeit still LIBERAL opinions?")
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #107
112. you're suprised that we are killing reporters, allies, civ and that people
are upset :crazy:

this a place of discussion and more than one side of the story is going to be argued for the benifit of everyone.

the ones arguing that this could be an accident are entiled to their opinion and outrage just like the rest.

peace

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Spinoza Donating Member (766 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #112
183. I'm not surprised
that people are "upset". I'm "upset". I'm only suggesting that we hold back the lynch mobs until we know for sure what really happened.
Peace.
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #101
109. Pot tag Kettle - WWF
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4321913.stm

Ms Sgrena, denied US military accounts that the car was speeding past a checkpoint when it was fired upon.
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #109
116. Interesting though, isn't it?
At the same time that you quote Ms Sgrena, you guys are also posting comments about the anti-US military stories she's been writing.

So, she'd have no axe to grind with the US military?

I'm not taking sides, just asking objective questions. We need more facts, IMHO, before we label our troops as murderers.
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #116
122. More.....
But I'm sure you won't approve of the source.

http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=38054
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #116
126. "We need more facts, IMHO, before we label our troops as murderers."
The invasion of Iraq violated international law and it was as big a crime as Saddam's invasion of Kuwait, and Hitler's invasion of Poland. In that respect, while not all US troops are murderers, they certainly stand on the same moral platform as the German troops during the Second World War.

And on a religious note, the Pope did warn that if the US and the UK invaded Iraq, they would do so without G_d.

I refuse to be a good German!
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #116
127. Show me one post on this thread of an anti-US military quote
that you claim Ms Sgrena has wrote.

And why would Ms Sgrena have an ax to grind with the US military? I've yet to read anything by Ms Sgrena, but I sure plan too.
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #127
135. Not in this thread, but others on the same page.
Edited on Sat Mar-05-05 04:26 PM by Blue to the bone
Read them. From what others have said, she's been reporting on US atrocities in Fallujah and elsewhere.
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #135
153. Then give me a link, eh?
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #153
173. Your linky, sir....
...the thread to which I was referring was combined with this one, but I found another on the 'general discussion' forum.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #173
208. Those are only titles to articles that she wrote
No anti-military post by a DUer. Sorry no cigar! If you do find one do a cut & paste.
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #208
217. Here's a link to a post that mentions why the US military wanted her dead.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Read the whole thread and you'll see plenty of comments about how our IMPERIAL troops are murdering, raping, and torturing Iraqis.

And yes, I know those crimes have been committed, but that still does not give anyone the right to paint all our troops as criminals.

They're simply not.
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lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #116
131. Oh oh
So now we will question the integrity of the Italian journalist? New twist.
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #131
138. Not her integrity, her story.
Was she aware of everything going on outside the car as it headed for the airport.

Was she in the front seat or back. I think she said she was speaking to someone on the phone, or someone in the car at the time.

Is it not reasonable to hear both sides of the story before labeling one as murderers?

I think it is.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #138
149. You question neither the story, not the integrity of the Pentagon
You can't question the reporter's story without at the same time questioning her integrity. Yet you have never challenged the official Pentagon version, despite the mounting evidence to the contrary.

Lucky that a fascist like Berlusconi is also among those demanding for an impartial investigation, rejecting the bullshit he heard from Bush over the phone.

This incident is as much an accident as the attack on the USS Liberty.
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #149
186. I've stated very clearly that we should hear from the soldiers involved...
I don't trust the Pentagon either because it's a given that we'll hear that it was just a SNAFU.

So you know it wasn't an accident? Perhaps you'd like to tell us about your inside sources?
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lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #116
134. Oh oh
So now we will question the integrity of Ms.Sgrena? New twist.
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Placebo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #101
128. Not a trick post at all.
I am 100% serious. I want all the facts too, and I know our military isn't infallible, but these reactionary reckless and hateful remarks are truly getting out of hand, I think.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #100
105. Can you give us an explanation as to why they would fire on the
Edited on Sat Mar-05-05 03:47 PM by BullGooseLoony
car in the first place?
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #100
115. Spare me the faux outrage!
The real outrage is the way we have destroyed Iraq and murdered her people, not to mention the over 1,500 GIs that have died for nothing!

Meanwhile, let's turn the channel to American TV and watch the coverage of Martha's release and the Jacko trial.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #115
125. It is transparent as hell after watching US soldiers shooting unarmed...
...and wounded Iraqis in a mosque like dogs even on US cable news channels. I don't know where some of these poster have been living? Perhaps in a cave with Osama? I don't know? Pretty pathetic when you stop and think about it.

Don

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MrModerate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #100
177. Maybe you're reading different threads than I am . . .
What I'm reading is:

1) Some of our troops HAVE murdered.

2) We HAVE targeted journalists (Palestine hotel, a literal "targeting" of journalists).

3) This incident sounds intensely fishy and we don't trust Bushco to tell the truth on anything. We'd like an investigation but expect a whitewash.

4) This whole war is mass murder.
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soothsayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
108. our boys over there are real jumpy
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #108
118. I wonder why? Guess 2 or 3 car bombings a day will do that to you. n/t
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #118
133. Duh? Perhaps it is the Occupation that is bringing the violence.
Who is occupying whom in here?

If France had done to America what we had done to Iraq, we would be dancing in the streets everytime an American suicide bomber kills a French Occupier.
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #133
136. What's that got to do with the price of beans? n/t
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #136
139. Nothing to do with beans, but everything to do with the violence in Iraq
Or are you also going to deny that our occupation is the raison d'etre for the violence in Iraq?
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #139
141. And what's that got to do with the question of whether our troops.....
....are murderers?

No one has questioned the insanity of going into the country in the first place, nor the insanity of trying to survive there on a daily basis.

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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #141
143. Every day US troops stay in Iraq is a crime against humanity!
Edited on Sat Mar-05-05 04:40 PM by IndianaGreen
I don't hear you calling for their immediate withdrawal.
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #143
145. Once again, changing the subject. So, our soldiers are murderers, right?
Is that what you're saying? That's been the theme of much of what has been posted on this thread and I find it disgusting to label them as such until we know the facts.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #145
146. Yes, they acted outside international law, so they are criminals
Published on Saturday, March 5, 2005 by Agence France Presse
US Attack Against Italians in Baghdad was Deliberate: Companion


The chief editor of Sgrena's left-wing newspaper Il Manifesto Gabriele Polo meanwhile branded Calipari's death a "murder".

"He was hit in the head," he said.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0305-05.htm
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Conservativesux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #146
256. Worse for us is that these cowards will come back here and become cops.
Edited on Sun Mar-06-05 12:20 AM by Conservativesux
Woe-is-be to anyone who gets in the way of a untreated, PTSD laden police officer.

One "wrong" move at a traffic stop will ruin your whole day.

"Shoot first, ask questions later" was heard by me, first-hand, from a returned American soldier from Iraq, after a few weeks of police academy training.

He will be in a patrol car in a few weeks from now, so remember to keep your hands in place at all time during a traffic stop or a domestic call.

The results, if you don't, will probably be deadly.....for you. :(

BushAmerika at it's best!
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #256
262. Lovely....cowards, criminals, murderers, what have we left off in...
...describing our troops.

Thanks folks. Makes me proud.
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Conservativesux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #262
267. In an unjust, profit-driven war, what else can we expect ?
I urge everyone to take some serious heed here.

Transfer from the military back to a civilan life is not an easy task, but we must also should take care who we let the Chief of Police hire to be deputies and police officers in our communities.

Many of these new police hires, who were soldiers in Iraq, are going to kill innocent Americans.

You can count on it. :(

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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #267
278. We can count on it? Then perhaps we should just jail them now.
Could you point them out to us?
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Conservativesux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #278
294. Just keep watching the news reports. You'll see it soon enough.
Edited on Sun Mar-06-05 01:33 AM by Conservativesux
Remember the Marine from Iraq that took on the cops in Ceres, CA?

There are plenty more where that poor PTSD laden man came from and some of them will be wearing Blue uniforms and carrying badges and guns.

When the red and blue lights go on, pull over _fast_ else you will be a target, just like these people in Iraq.
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #294
303. So why not just jail the whole damn bunch of them right now?
You know, all 150,000 of those murdering, raping, war criminal bastards? Serve 'em right, wouldn't it?
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MadisonProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-05 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #303
398. Why not just bring them all home
and treat them?
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #262
273. um
exactly what the hell do you think they are doing over there? they ain't exactly the red cross or the peace corps...

this is an illegal occupation...and unless EVERY one of those tens of thousands of civvie deaths were 'justified' according to the rules of engagement, unless ALL those millions of rounds of ammo hit the right target, unless EVERY cluster bomb dropped in a residential area only killed suspected 'insurgents' then YES, they are murderers
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #273
276. Thank you, I'll update my file.
What was your name again.

Murderers, geez.
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #276
290. oh, so everything we're doing over there is
wholesome, good, caring, etc, etc??

i forgot, we're on some mercy mission of peace over there
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Conservativesux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #290
297. Yeah, right. I think we are "installing democracy" or something, right?
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #290
305. Yes, haven't you seen my posts where I've denied that any American..
...soldiers could possibly have taken part in rapes, murders, robberies, or whatever other crimes you might come up with?

You must not be paying attention.
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #305
335. Play it again Sam!
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #305
361. then why are you throwing a pissy-fit when i call them out as such?
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Conservativesux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #273
298. Yeah but we can't call them that until they murder over here, can we?
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #298
306. No, let's call a spade a spade. They're all murderers......let's jail...
the whole damned bunch....all 150,000 of them. That's what they get for following orders.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #262
295. So you defend the murderers, criminals and cowards that have been exposed
so far in Iraq?

Because it is THOSE who we are referring to. As is likely with these criminals, thugs and murderers who did THIS latest in a string of COUNTLESS atrocities.

Yes, we will continue to call those "soldiers" who commit such atrocities murders, criminals and worse. And we are justified to do so.

But far be it from US to defend THEM like you seem so willing to do.

I have yet to hear you condemn them, too.

But these are ALL honerable soldiers to you.

Pathetic.
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #295
308. Please read post #172 about two line below this one. Posted much earlier.
You should read my posts before condemning me.

I have no problem calling those who have been convicted of crimes, criminals.

I do have a problem calling those whose story we've not even heard, murderers.

Apparently you don't.
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countryjake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 06:39 AM
Response to Reply #262
331. And what does it take for you to understand?
Try "capitalist running dogs"; there, do you feel properly persecuted now?

Ever hear the term "conscientious objector"? Instead of ranting to folks here, who express indignation at disastrous events brought on by an illegal war, why couldn't you actively demonstrate a bit of your own belief that this administration is as corrupt as you claim? How often do you sit down with your 3D buddies to discuss & come up with concrete solutions to end our National Guard being asked to bear the brunt of this occupation? People in Montana are requesting that their Guards be returned stateside, as are states in the Northwest, due to a real NEED & fear of a wildfire season that has already begun, with nobody here to protect.

I have dear friends with Honorable Discharges who have been in the Reserves for decades & ya know what, they've thrown it all away because they refuse to support another illegal military action! You do know that old saying, right...Fool me once? When you live in a country where the career military are quitting in droves, I'd say that's a pretty good sign that something is rotten, somewhere. The sooner the soldiers all stand up & use their bravery & courage to shout, "Hell NO!", the quicker this country will run out of expendable pawns for their twisted games!
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #331
338. Can't disagree with anything you've said......but the key to it all....
......is that it is THEIR decision to make, not mine, not yours.

If they wish to be conscientious objectors, I'll be leading the band supporting them. But I'll not condemn them all, call them murderers and the numerous other labels that have been applied in this thread, simply because they don't do what I want them to do.

Freedom of choice I'd call it.

That war is evil, the administration that sent our men and women there is evil. But the vast majority of our servicemen and women are not evil, and I'm damned proud of them.

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librarycard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #141
168. Do you believe our soldiers have tortured?
I only wish America treated its teachers as sacrosanct, as it does its soldiers.
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #168
172. Yes, American soldiers absolutely have tortured Iraqis and....
....they have been, and are being, tried in military courts of justice.

Any member of the military who willingly commits torture (no matter the order from above) should be punished to the full extent of the law.
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Spinoza Donating Member (766 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #118
140. Yep
According to the 2 hour Frontline T.V. report last week on the experiences of a single Army company in Iraq, our soldiers are under ORDERS to prevent any unidentified auto from coming close to them. They are told that, IF TIME PERMITS, first fire a warning in the air; if the car continues to approach and IF TIME PERMITS, fire a second warning right over the car; if the car still continues to approach, shoot to kill. And if time does not permit any warning shots--shoot to kill. According to Frontline those are the orders of engagement for the entire U.S. military in Iraq. Certainly, under those kind of orders, it is at least conceivable that a genuine mistake was made and the soldiers had no idea who was in the car? Shouldn't this be investigated before we jump to any conclusions?
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zippy890 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #140
147. companion of reporter says shooting deliberate

"Our vehicle was running at normal speed which could not be misunderstood," she said, rejecting US fears of a possible suicide attack.

"It wasn`t a checkpoint but a patrol which immediately opened fire after they trained their light on us," Sgrena said.



http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=38054
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Spinoza Donating Member (766 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #147
159. Again,
according to Frontline, NO unidentified automobile, no matter its speed is to be allowed near ANY U.S. soldiers. It makes no difference whether this is a "checkpoint". Soldiers are under orders to respond as I previously noted, if an unidientified auto approaches them ANYWHERE in Iraq. Secondly, even IF eye-witnesses are claiming the shooting was deliberate, how do we know for certain that they are not mistaken? Don't the soldiers deserve an impartial investigation before convicting them? Why is everyone jumping so quickly to conclusions?
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #159
299. They were between the LAST CHECKPOINT & WAITING ITALIAN TROOPS.
How much clearer does it have to be to you that these "soldiers" are murderers, thugs & criminals?!?!

The whole point of this thread is that it has already been proven, THAT THERE WAS NO JUSTIFICATION FOR THIS LATEST IN A STRING OF "INCIDENTS".

ALL of the government "explainations" are dropping like flys.

ALL siminar "incidents" in the past our government has been proven to be the criminals they are & OUR "accusations" have been proven the TRUTH!
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Spinoza Donating Member (766 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #299
382. YOU SOUND HYSTERICAL.
Nothing at all has been "proven". Remember the quant idea of innocent until PROVEN guilty. How "insensitive" of me to actually believe IN old-fashioned notion.
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countryjake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 07:16 AM
Response to Reply #159
332. That seven miles of Airport Road is THE most surveilled...
stretch of pavement in Iraq. There are intelligence-blimps floating above it & checkpoints the entire length. The Italian secret service car had been passed thru by every one of those checkpoints...they were 700 meters from the end of the damn thing. Nervous, trigger-happy, bunglers, failure-to-communicate, under-orders, murderers; look at it how you want, but whatever, this was a deadly mistake that has happened in the name of the USA & shames us ALL!
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #118
163. Out of curiosity...
if it had been Iraqi resistance fighters who had apparently tried to kill a journalist in Iraq promoting US propaganda, would you consider it an accident, too?

Would you say that they were probably jumpy, thanks to the constant US attacks on them, and that that was probably the reason?

Or would you call them vicious terrorists, trying to murder an innocent woman without any legitimate justification?
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #163
170. Would these be the same 'resistance fighters' who held her and..
...threatened to cut off her head?

Since I happen to be on the side of our troops, as opposed to pulling against them, I would have to say that any time a 'resistance fighter' knowingly kills an innocent civilian, it would be considered murder.

Do you have information that our troops who fired on this car KNEW there was an innocent woman inside?

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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #170
176. I do not know who captured her...
Edited on Sat Mar-05-05 06:29 PM by Darranar
so I do not know whether or not I would consider them resistance fighters or jihadists with no real interest in Iraqi nationalism, merely in religious fundamentalism.

Those who captured her committed an atrocity, as do those in the US government who order the arrests of many innocent Iraqis in an attempt to intimidate the population.

If being on the side of the US soldiers means supporting what they are fighting for - US dominance of Iraq - I am certainly not on their side, but if it means hoping for their continued survival and for a swift trip back home, I am firmly on their side.

I don't care whether or not they knew. They certainly did not know she was a combatant, because she was not. The possibility that the people in the car could have been combatants is not enough to justify shooting at it.
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #176
191. Some here claim the CIA kidnapped her.....then let her go.....
....I guess so they could then track her down and kill her near the airport so that Bushco and company could be embarrassed.

Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

There's no evidence of a conspiracy therefore I guess it's working perfectly.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #191
193. I do not believe that. Sure, it is possible, but you are right...
that it makes little sense.

If they kidnapped her and wanted to kill her, it would be far easier and suit them far better PR-wise to do it when they had her kidnapped.
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #193
195. Thank you. n/t
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tlcandie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #163
333. Interesting that NONE of the journalists were killed by Iraqis...n/t
I would think that IF it was truly accidental that journalists were being killed that there would be journalist deaths from both sides, but it seems the deaths are only coming from the "coalition" side. :shrug:
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #108
121. And many of them are on drugs provided by the Pentagon
Shall we mention Go-pills and who knows what else the Pentagon has been giving the troops to keep them going?
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Conservativesux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #121
300. Provigil: The drug of choice for US GI's courtesy of Uncle Sam.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
150. So much carping, it gets in the way of the discussion, I fear
Italy gets a BUNDLE from the US, and is a huge contributor to the economy of Italy, just through the bases at Aviano, Gaeta, Naples and Sicily. There's benefit on both sides--Italy can shave their defense budget, the US gets basing and overflight rights (important when you want to bomb, say, Libya...).

Berlusconi is to the right of Attila the Hun. He owns a ton of media outlets over there, and he is the ultimate media baron. He'll be slow to change his country's participation in this farcical exercise in the sandbox, because it brings substantive benefits to him, personally, as well as his country. If you aren't with 'em, you're agin 'em, and only those who are WITH are allowed access to all of those lucrative rebuilding contracts. The country will have to rise up and really make life difficult for him before he loses his grip.

The service personnel over in Iraq are stressed, overstressed, and stressed some more. They have a set ROE established, and one of the elements of the ROE is that if the car doesn't stop on signal, you fire a burst in front of it, if it still doesn't stop, you light it up. Aggressively. The kids at the checkpoint have no clue who is in the vehicle, and if there is a question, they have to protect their own asses. To do otherwise is disobedience of a direct order.

Now, for those who would wonder WHY there was no coordination between the Italians and the US about the route of this woman, that's a good question, a valid question, and a reasonable question, and no one has answered it yet at the government level.

It seems to me that the impossible task we are asking these teenage kids to do over in Iraq is made much harder by a complete failure of command and control protocols. Accidents will always happen, but they are happening with great frequency, and you can't fault the soldier for following a set ROE, or aiming at a target that they have been ordered to take out. You can fault seniors in the chain for failing to disseminate information in a timely manner, or for failing to provide adequate comm gear so that timely information is disseminated to those tasked with maintaining security.

This happens way up the chain from the dusty little boots on the ground, who are just hoping like hell that they'll make it back to their shitty little billets at the end of their daily grind of guarding a checkpoint, or carrying out a patrol. Endless boredom, and the odd, unexpected moments of extreme, pantpissing fear. Not a recipe for normality. Not a good spot to be in.
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chlamor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
158. List of Journalists and Media Assistants Killed in Iraq
48 journalists and media assistants killed since the start of fighting in Iraq in March 2003, four still missing

33 have been killed this year while doing their job.

Four other journalists are still missing

The names of the deceased:

33 Journalists killed


25.02.2005 - Raeda Mohammed Wageh Wazzan, Iraqiya

09.02.2005 - Abdel Hussein Khazaal, Al-Hurra TV

01.11.2004 - Dhia Najim, Reuters

27.10.2004 - Liqaa Abdul-Razzaq, Al-Sharqiya

14.10.2004 - Karam Hussein, European Pressphoto Agency

14.10.2004 - Dina Mohamad Hassan, Al Hurriya Television

7.10.2004 - Ahmad Jassem, Nivive television

12.09.2004 - Mazen al-Tomaizi, Al-Arabiya

26.08.2004 - Enzo Baldoni, Diario della settimana

15.08.2004 - Mahmoud Hamid Abbas, ZDF

15.08.2004 - Hossam Ali, freelance

03.06.2004 - Sahar Saad Eddine Nouami, Al-Mizan, Al-Khaima, Al-Hayat Al-Gadida

27.05.2004 - Kotaro Ogawa, Nikkan Gendai


07.05.2004 - Mounir Bouamrane, TVP

19.04.2004 - Assad Kadhim, Al-Iraqiya TV

26.03.2004 - Bourhan Mohammad al-Louhaybi, ABC News

18.03.2004 - Ali Al-Khatib, Al-Arabiya

18.03.2004 - Ali Abdel Aziz, Al-Arabiya

18.03.2004 - Nadia Nasrat, Diyala Television

28.10.2003 - Ahmed Shawkat, Bila Ittijah

17.08.2003 - Mazen Dana, Reuters

02.07.2003 - Ahmad Karim, Kurdistan Satellite TV

08.04.2003 - Jos Couso, Tele 5

08.04.2003 - Taras Protsyuk, Reuters

08.04.2003 - Tarek Ayoub, Al Jazeera

07.04.2003 - Christian Liebig, Focus

07.04.2003 - Julio Anguita Parrado, El Mundo

04.04.2003 - Michael Kelly, Washington Post

02.04.2003 - Kaveh Golestan, BBC

02.04.2003 - Kaveh Golestan, BBC

23.03.2003 - Terry Lloyd, ITV News

22.03.2003 - Paul Moran, Australian Broadcasting Corporation

15 Media assistants killed


25.08.2004 - Jamal Tawfiq Salmane, Gazeta Wyborcza

29.05.2004 - Mahmoud Ismael Daood, bodyguard, Al-Sabah al-Jadid

29.05.2004 - Samia Abdeljabar, driver, Al-Sabah al-Jadid

27.05.2004 - Unknown, translator

25.05.2004 - Unknown, translator

21.05.2004 - Rachid Hamid Wali, cameraman assistant, Al-Jazira

29.04.2004 - Hussein Saleh, driver, Al-Iraquiya TV

26.03.2004 - Omar Hashim Kamal, translator, Time

18.03.2004 - Majid Rachid, technician, Diyala Television

18.03.2004 - Mohamad Ahmad, security agent, Diyala Television

27.01.2004 - Duraid Isa Mohammed, producer and translator, CNN

27.01.2004 - Yasser Khatab, driver, CNN

07.07.2003 - Jeremy Little, sound engineer, NBC

06.04.2003 - Kamaran Abdurazaq Muhamed, translator, BBC

22.03.2003 - Hussein Othman, translator, ITV News

http://www.rsf.org/special_iraq_en.php3





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chomskysright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #158
357. thnks; I passed to her news service: redazione@ilmanifesto.it
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
185. Most of DU wants to get to the bottom of this crime.
Were the shooters just regular "troops" not up to guard duty? A couple of "bad apples"? Was this some operation not unrelated to shootings of other reporters--not involving regular soldiers at all?

The usual suspects have shown up to point out that any inquiry means we don't support the troops. Hey, we'll be marginalized! Where have I heard that before?





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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #185
188. You don't want to get to the bottom of anything!!!! You called it...
...a CRIME in your title. You've already made up your mind, what's to get to the bottom of?

Hang the fuckers, right?
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sonicx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #188
197. if it's not crime, what is it?
If you accidently hit someone while running a red light, it's a crime.
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #197
199. Yeah, that's a perfect analogy alright....
Edited on Sat Mar-05-05 06:54 PM by Blue to the bone
....it's a shit-hole war zone over there....not a red light in front of a Sonic drive-inn (notice the pun).

Anyway, it could be nothing more than a tragic wartime accident. If it's more than that, then let's get the facts and punish those who are guilty of whatever crime was committed.

PLENTY of American servicemen have committed crimes in Iraq and they're serving time or have been kicked out of the military.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #199
211. they just made the man who authorized torture the HEAD of JUSTICE
and you think we will get to the bottom of this :crazy:

peace
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 07:21 PM
Response to Original message
202. A couple of quotes from Ms Sgrena.....
<<"There was suddenly this shooting, we were hit by a hail of gunfire, and I was speaking with Nicola, who was telling me about what had been happening in Italy in the meantime, when he leaned towards me, probably also to protect me," Ms Sgrena told Rai radio.>>

<<Asked if the car was going too fast when the US troops opened fire, she said: "We weren't going particularly fast given that type of situation.">>

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4321913.stm



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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #202
204. "The Americans and Italians knew about (her) car coming,"
US attack against Italians in Baghdad was deliberate: companion --The companion of freed Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena on Saturday leveled serious accusations at US troops who fired at her convoy as it was nearing Baghdad airport, saying the shooting had been deliberate. "The Americans and Italians knew about (her) car coming," Pier Scolari said on leaving Rome's Celio military hospital where Sgrena is to undergo surgery following her return home. "They were 700 meters (yards) from the airport, which means that they had passed all checkpoints." The shooting late Friday was witnessed by Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi's office which was on the phone with one of the secret service agents, said Scolari. "Then the US military silenced the cellphones," he charged. "Giuliana had information, and the US military did not want her to survive," he added.

http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=38029

peace
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ProudToBeLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #204
207. Some one got told Big Time. NT
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cal04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #204
213.  There was a plane waiting for her, so how
Edited on Sat Mar-05-05 10:03 PM by cal04
do they not know, when I'm sure that plane had been there since he got there and the car had to be the same one they left with.
There was heavy rain and you can't travel at speed on that road
The Iraqi resistance has nothing to gain from these atrocities and the invader/occupiers have everything to gain in the propaganda war.

"All the American media said the Italian car, which was carrying the former hostage and Italian intelligence officers, was speeding at checkpoint and thus fired upon by American troops. However, foreign news reports it differently.
http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/printer_16096...

A plane was waiting to take her home. But while the car was still some 600 metres from the terminal, American troops opened fire, unleashing a volley of 300 to 400 shots, killing Mr Calipari outright and wounding Ms Sgrena and the other two intelligence officers in the car, one of them seriously.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.j...

Enzo Bianco, the opposition head of the parliamentary committee that oversees Italy's secret services, described the American account as unbelievable. 'They talk of a car travelling at high speed, and that is not possible because there was heavy rain in Baghdad and you can't travel at speed on that road,' Bianco said. 'They speak of an order to stop, but we're not sure that happened.'

Pier Scolari, Sgrena's partner who flew to Baghdad to collect her, put an even more sinister construction on the events, suggesting in a television interview that Sgrena was the victim of a deliberate ambush. 'Giuliana may have received information which led to the soldiers not wanting her to leave Iraq alive,' he claimed.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1431553,00....
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #213
220. Yes, and al Zawarhiri has reported that Rove headed the hit squad! n/t
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #220
233. Awwww, you're so cute and funny
Just having a blast, huh?
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #233
234. Sorry, whether right wing or left wing, I have no patience for.....
....conspiracy theories.
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #234
236. Well, hopefully DUers won't test your patience for too much longer
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #236
237. Are you hoping I get banned?
So much for our "big tent" theory I guess.
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #237
238. Goodness me, did I say such a thing?
Sounds like a conspiracy theory to me.
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #238
240. Yes, they're coming to take me away ha ha! n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #202
214. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #214
224. I've said JUST THAT about a hundred times today Lancey....
....but it rolls off like water off a duck's back.

Yeah, "not particularly fast for that situation"....all the while talking to someone in the car about the last month's events in Italy......her words, not mine.
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Strelnikov_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #214
226. Typical Reich-Wing Strategy, Blame The Victim

Here are some 'weasel words' for you:

"As you know, you go to war with the Army you have. They're not the Army you might want or wish to have at a later time."
- Rumsfeld

"Every dime that goes in from payroll taxes is spent. It's spent on retirees, and if there's excess, it's spent on government programs. The only thing that Social Security has is a pile of IOUs from one part of the government to the next."

- The Chimp

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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #214
231. I'd say 300-400 bullets was a pretty meaningful attempt
Edited on Sat Mar-05-05 11:01 PM by Ms. Clio
to kill everyone in the car--it was just sheer luck that any of the occupants survived. Most Iraqis in that situation have not been so fortunate.

And since you like to repeat Bluey's quotes, let me repeat one of mine for you:

Scregna says the conduct of the car in which she was being transported to liberty couldn't possibly justify the fusillade that riddled it and its occupants with bullets. "Our car was rolling along at normal speed, so it was impossible for there to have been a misunderstanding," Scregna told the Italian magistrates who've been charged with investigating the murderous incident, according to the Italian wire service Ansa-- which also says her account has been confirmed by one of the Italian secret service agents in the car with her, who was likewise wounded.

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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #214
232. Oh yes, our troops have super human ability to kill anyone at will. Right?
By the way, did you see the latest Osama video? He didn't look too dead to me.

Don

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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #202
228. Again, repeating meaningless quotes
Let me repeat one that is actually pertinent:

Scregna says the conduct of the car in which she was being transported to liberty couldn't possibly justify the fusillade that riddled it and its occupants with bullets. "Our car was rolling along at normal speed, so it was impossible for there to have been a misunderstanding," Scregna told the Italian magistrates who've been charged with investigating the murderous incident, according to the Italian wire service Ansa-- which also says her account has been confirmed by one of the Italian secret service agents in the car with her, who was likewise wounded.
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #228
248. Okay, we have one half of the story.
But you know, I wasn't there. Anyway, I'll believe what she's saying. I have no reason not to believe her.

Now, I'd like to hear what the troops who actually did the shooting have to say.

Perhaps one half of the story is sufficient for a conviction in your court. It's not in mine.
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #248
251. Yes, of course, I'm sure those soldiers will be deposed
and thoroughly questioned--perhaps by Italian prosecutors. Right? Uh huh.

By the way, do you know that the car that was shot up is missing, and nobody seems to really know who or where those soldiers are, either?

Curiouser and curiouser.

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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #251
255. The car is missing? Has it been beamed up to the mothership?
Geez Louise people, you grasp at every single digital straw on the internet.

Relax, take a deep breath, and let's get some facts.
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #255
258. Golly, Bluey, do try to keep up with the facts, would you?
When The Associated Press in Baghdad asked the U.S. military to see the vehicle on Saturday, the military said it didn't know where it was.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/2005...


Aren't these the same guys you think will present those soldiers for a complete and truthful accounting of this incident?
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #258
263. So do you believe the military is hiding the vehicle....
.....or that the military person asked about its whereabouts didn't know where it was or perhaps cooler heads on both sides are prevailing and they're not giving out any more info until and investigation is completed?

I don't know. Do you? Yes, you apparently do know all the answers.
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #263
265. There is absolutely no valid reason not to let the AP see the car
And if the person they asked didn't know, then that person could have asked someone who did know. What a lame ass excuse.

And you seem to have all your own answers. They are just different than mine.

Yes, of course, the military will complete an investigation of itself, and then the entire and unvarnished truth will be presented.

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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #265
268. No valid reason?
I thought a criminal act had been committed. Wouldn't it be prudent to confiscate the vehicle and not allow anyone to snoop around it until investigators had a chance to do their work?

I'd damn-well want the evidence protected if I was going to be charged with murder. But then again, I keep forgetting that this was a goon hit squad hired to kill the woman after the CIA let her go. Silly me.
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #268
269. What, it will compromise the super secret investigation if the press
just looks at the car from a respectful distance?

Weak. Really incredibly weak.
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #269
272. No, I don't think that would compromise anything.
Edited on Sun Mar-06-05 12:38 AM by Blue to the bone
They should be able to photograph it from a distance.

As for military justice in such instances, see my post #261. I recall a similar incident where innocents died.

Don't recall the punishment of those responsible, but we got to see and hear their side of the story. I believe, due to the high profile nature of this case, we'll hear the troop's side as well, from the troops.

I certainly hope that to be the case.
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #272
275. There have been thousands of such incidents where we never heard anything
Edited on Sun Mar-06-05 12:49 AM by Ms. Clio
Certainly not the Iraqis' side.

Why you think the troops are going to say anything substantially different from the Pentagon is truly baffling to me.

For instance, here is some extremely important new information:

"Italian reconstruction of the incident is significantly different. Sgrena told colleagues the vehicle was not travelling fast and had already passed several checkpoints on its way to the airport. The Americans shone a flashlight at the car and then fired between 300 and 400 bullets at if from an armoured vehicle. Rather than calling immediately for assistance for the wounded Italians, the soldiers' first move was to confiscate their weapons and mobile phones and they were prevented from resuming contact with Rome for more than an hour. "

Edited to add link: http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,69...

So what was that again about getting the soldiers' side of the story? What possible explanation do you think they could have for this? On second thought, however, I am sure you can spin, spin, spin this, too. Well, it will be interesting to watch.
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #275
277. No Clio, you're right, it's obviously attempted murder. Case closed!
Why even do an investigation? You've got it all figured out.
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #277
279. Well, do keep us posted about that investigation, Bluey
We'll just never know the entire truth until the Pentagon lets those soldiers tell it--heaven knows they would never ever lie about something like this.

Clearly even you have no remotely plausible explanation for taking the wounded Italians' cell phones and weapons before rendering aid.
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #279
282. No plausible explanation for taking their cell phones and weapons???
BEFORE RENDERING AID.....That's really laughable Ms. Clio.
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #282
285. I knew you wouldn't disappoint me n/t
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #275
280. Actually Ms Clio....re-read the quote you've highlighted....
....<<the soldier's first move was to confiscate their weapons and mobile phones>>

Now, sounds to me like that would be the wise thing to do if you'd just fired upon a vehicle you thought might hold bad guys. Would you not agree.

<<Prevented them from resuming contact with Rome for more than an hour>>

Again, sounds wise to sort things out before handing phones back to people you don't know. I suspect these troops realized pretty quickly that they'd fucked up and wanted to wait for orders from higher up before proceeding.

What the quote doesn't say is how long they waited before calling for medical assistance. To me, once you've disarmed the occupants and secured the area, that should be the first thing they should do.
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #280
283. Yes, cell phones can be deadly weapons in the wrong hands n/t
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #283
286. Ah yeah....how about a bad guy phoning his location to a buddy?
Duh.
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #286
287. Yes, you have all the answers
So why did they prevent the Italians from calling Rome for an hour?

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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #287
293. I told you why I thought they might have waited that long...but then...
....I wasn't there and don't know. I'd like to hear the troop's side of the story. Wouldn't you?

Oh, and another point about cell phones, do you know how the bombs in the Madrid train stations were triggered? Or how about most IED's in Iraq?

Wanna guess?
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #293
296. Yes, because even though the Italians surely told them who they were
And their identity could have been confirmed in one minute by those who shot at them, they had to take the cell phones away and keep them from calling Rome for an entire hour, just to be safe.

Weak. Again.
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #296
301. You know Ms Clio, you keep asking me to explain their motives...
...when I wasn't there. I've told you over and over again that I don't know what happened and that only those who did the shooting can provide their side.

All I want to know is the whole story, both sides, before making my decision on guilt.

If you're comfortable deciding guilt and a some related grand conspiracy before both sides have provided their story, then you have that right.

'K?
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #301
304. Duck and weave and spin
Smoke and mirrors.

I'll bet you're just so reasonable and open-minded and anxious for evidence from all sides whenever one of those beheading videos appears, too.
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #304
309. If wanting to hear both sides of the story is ducking, weaving, and...
.....spinning, then consider me guilty.

Beheading videos? Let me guess, the CIA, right?
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #309
311. Gosh, I don't know--I'm waiting for the full and impartial investigations
I want to hear from all sides, including the beheaders, before I draw any conclusions.

It's only fair.
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #311
312. Man, that was close. I was afraid you were going to tell me that you...
....believed the CIA was involved. You had me scared Ms Clio.

Yeah, I'm with you. Let's wait till we hear their side of the story too.
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #312
316. Yes, all those investigations should be completed soon
Oh, wait, there aren't any investigations, and never will be.

Well, we'll see how this one plays out.

Ciao for now.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #301
307. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:53 AM
Response to Reply #307
310. She may be "unknown" to you
But she is a renowned and highly respected journalist.

What an incredibly ignorant and ethnocentric comment.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #310
313. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #313
315. Hmmm....do I detect some suspicion in your tone about her...
....kidnapping, Lancey?
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #313
317. I'd be willing to bet there's a lot of prominent "furriners"
you've never heard of.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #317
320. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #310
314. I heard she worked for some communist rag....
.....was I wrong?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 02:31 AM
Response to Reply #314
324. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #314
379. "some communist rag...."?
Isn't that the language of the rightwing? Referring to a newspaper as a "rag" just because it is to the Left?
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #379
380. Ha. You're right. It's somewhat amusing, when you google "communist rag"
Look at this entry on page two of 51,2000 hits for "communist rag:"

Islamic Militant Group Threatens to Kill Italian Journalist ...
... No way! You should see the website of the Communist rag where she used to
work. They have her face plastered on every single page. ...
www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1337090/posts - 35k - Cached - Similar pages


http://www.google.com/search?q=communist+rag&hl=en&lr=&...

You definitely nailed that old McCarthyesque slur!

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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 02:31 AM
Response to Reply #307
323. Let's get the entire story. Any idea why it's being buried by the U.S.
press. How are we going to get the "American side of the story" when our press runs away from it?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 02:35 AM
Response to Reply #323
325. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #325
351. well for one thing...
we have no reputable American news outfit in Iraq. They are all embeded with the Military and anything they say has to be approved first. So much for the free press eh?
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cubschicago Donating Member (123 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #323
334. They are afraid they will be the next victim! n/t
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #323
340. Good question Oasis.
All I see is Michael and Martha. You'd think the world revolves around those two clowns.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #307
342. "hitherto unknown 'Italian journalist'"?
What parochial bullshit. And what's with the quotation marks? She's an enemy combatant now, perhaps? Maybe not even Italian? WTF? :shrug:
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chlamor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #342
346. 700 meters from the airport hmmm
and they didn't know this vehicle was carrying a released journalist that had all international eyes out for her welfare in the last several weeks?

Oh, but she's a communist perhaps affiliated with the remnants of the Sandinistas who are trying to infiltrate the Ivy League?

Or perhaps there is something more sinister at work here with historical precedent:


Last month, it was widely reported that the Pentagon is considering a similar program in Iraq. What was not reported, however -- except in the Iraqi press -- is that at least one pro-occupation death squad is already in operation. Just days after the Pentagon plans were revealed, a new militant group, "Saraya Iraqna," began offering big wads of American cash for insurgent scalps -- up to $50,000, the Iraqi paper Al Ittihad reports. "Our activity will not be selective," the group promised. In other words, anyone they consider an enemy of the state will be fair game.

Strangely enough, just as it appears that the Pentagon is establishing Gladio-style operations in Iraq, there has been a sudden rash of terrorist attacks on outrageously provocative civilian targets, such as hospitals and schools, the Guardian reports. Coming just after national elections in which the majority faction supported slates calling for a speedy end to the American occupation, the shift toward high-profile civilian slaughter has underscored the "urgent need" for U.S. forces to remain on the scene indefinitely, to provide security against the ever-present terrorist threat. Meanwhile, the Bushists continue constructing their long-sought permanent bases in Iraq: citadels to protect the oil that incoming Iraqi officials are promising to sell off to American corporations -- and launching pads for new forays in geopolitical domination.

<snip>

'You had to attack civilians, the people, women, children, innocent people, unknown people far removed from any political game. The reason was quite simple: to force ... the public to turn to the state to ask for greater security."

This was the essence of Operation Gladio, a decades-long covert campaign of terrorism and deceit directed by the intelligence services of the West -- against their own populations. Hundreds of innocent people were killed or maimed in terrorist attacks -- on train stations, supermarkets, cafes and offices -- which were then blamed on "leftist subversives" or other political opponents. The purpose, as stated above in sworn testimony by Gladio agent Vincenzo Vinciguerra, was to demonize designated enemies and frighten the public into supporting ever-increasing powers for government leaders -- and their elitist cronies.

First revealed by Italian Prime Minister Giulio Andreotti in 1991, Gladio (from the Latin for "sword") is still protected to this day by its founding patrons, the CIA and MI6. Yet parliamentary investigations in Italy, Switzerland and Belgium have shaken out a few fragments of the truth over the years. These have been gathered in a new book, "NATO's Secret Armies: Operation Gladio and Terrorism in Western Europe," by Daniele Ganser, as Lila Rajiva reports on CommonDreams.org.

http://globalresearch.ca/articles/FLO502B.html
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #263
352. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #352
354. Uhhh Marty, I don't have the car. n/t
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confludemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
215. I hope and pray
(figuratively) that this will bring that asshole Berlusconi down. We all know that these people were killed on purpose. Plain and simple. They have targeted unimbedded journalists from day one. Berlusconi is now being exposed as the American puppet he truly is. He is a fellow traveler in a bloody game of death and destruction for corporate ends and every once and awhile events will expose this ugly, bloody Iraq fuckup in yet another demension.
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cire4 Donating Member (580 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #215
221. This incident has served as a wake up call to Berlusconi
We've all read the news reports saying that he is absolutely pissed. Hopefully this will make him re-evaluate his relationship with Bush and question the motivecs as to why the hell he and Italy are sucking up to * and America in the first place.
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fshrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 09:57 PM
Response to Original message
219. That's what happens when you team up with idiots.
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Chicago Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 10:07 PM
Response to Original message
222. Pace!
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procinderella Donating Member (110 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-05-05 10:54 PM
Response to Original message
241. My deepest sympathy for the family in Italy
How horrible for you!

Please know that many of us mourn your loss. May our prayers for peace mingle with your tears.
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chlamor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 12:00 AM
Response to Original message
260. Giuliana Wrote The Following
GIULIANA SGRENA
il manifesto 14 January 2005

Ten thousand Iraqis in US and British prisons
GIULIANA SGRENA
il manifesto 29 December 2004

Two thousand victims in Fallujah
Giuliana Sgrena, Iraq
il manifesto 26 November 2004

Napalm Raid on Falluja?
GIULIANA SGRENA
il manifesto 23 November 2004

The death throes of Fallujah
Giuliana Sgrena
ilmanifesto 13 November 2004

Stop the massacre
GIULIANA SGRENA
il manifesto 12 November 2004

Bombs and tanks, hell breaks in Falluja
GIULIANA SGRENA
il manifesto 09 November 2004

Interview with an Iraki woman tortured at Abu Graib.
Giuliana Sgrena, our correspondent in Baghdad
il manifesto 01 July 2004

Imminent attack against Falluja
GIULIANA SGRENA
il manifesto 06 November 2004

GIULIANA SGRENA
il manifesto 06 November 2004

Flight from a Falluja massacred by bombs
GIULIANA SGRENA
il manifestp 21 October 2004

UN: US crimes in Iraq
GIULIANA SGRENA
il manifesto 05 June 2004

http://www.ilmanifesto.it/pag/sgrena/en /

Maybe she saw this:


Who will arrest the colossal bandits:



Turn your eyes from the Medusa:

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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 12:34 AM
Response to Original message
271. wow...lots of fighting going on
Edited on Sun Mar-06-05 01:21 AM by Blue_Tires
can we all at least agree that:

1. The U.S. soldiers knew she was coming, and was supposed to protect her?

2. No matter if it's accidental or intentional, opening fire on a car after it has passed checkpoints is HIGHLY suspicious (even if it is a free fire zone, which it wasn't)?

3. The fact that the passenger in the car was a foreign journalist who has been very critical of the illegal U.S. occupation makes it even MORE suspicious?

4. The Pentagon/military has covered up and glossed over (i.e., lied and distorted) so much related to the occupation that their account of the facts means nothing?

And I agree, a full investigation (I'm sure it will be REAL thorough, lol) is needed before we pass judgement on if this was a miscommunication, a tragic accident, or something sinister. But I do want to say this: The "war/warzones is hell---the troops are really jumpy" and "fire first ask questions last" excuses hold NO water...If things are really that screwed up over there, then friendly fire deaths alone would be over 10,000. That excuse is flimsier than the 'frat pranks' for abu grihab
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #271
291. There is a whiff of DLC militarism in the air
which is why many of us can't stand the stench of those that support the US occupation of Iraq.
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 02:11 AM
Response to Reply #291
318. Careful, get too militant and you'll become a war criminal. n/t
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-05 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #318
409. Question the official line & you'll be "marginalized"...
Yes, we've heard the argument before....
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #271
360. Too bad this administration has lied
so much that I will never believe a word they say about anything. And that goes double for the military.



Guess it would be nice to be wearing those rose-colored glasses.
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 02:17 AM
Response to Original message
319. Bush admits, "There are a few bad apples" and is not accused of hating the
troops. Some here don't seem to get it.
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 02:27 AM
Response to Reply #319
321. This is really easy Oasis....
....the general principal is: You're innocent until proven guilty.

Bush was wrong. There are PLENTY of bad apples in the military and we've seen just some of what they're capable of doing.

Each and every one of them should recieve a fair trail and if found guilty of the crimes for which they're accused, then they should face maximum justice.

The problem I have with calling all our troops: criminals, murderers, rapists, etc, in an incident like the subject of this thread, is that they're not.

I just like having both sides of these stories before slamming our guys. And yes, I'm partial to the American servicemen. Some DU forum members have family members serving in Iraq. I respect the sacrifices they're making even though they didn't ask for this war.

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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 02:37 AM
Response to Reply #321
326. I've read many posts on this thread but none that accused all of our
Edited on Sun Mar-06-05 02:37 AM by oasis
troops of being "criminals, murderers and rapists".

I would take issue with anyone who had written such a blatant lie.
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #326
341. Oasis, for some 'blanket' condemnations, check out the following;
Post 146, 256, 267, 294, 298. I'm sure there are others. I just got a bit nauseated re-reading those.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #341
345. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #345
349. Because I can, and because I'll speak out for the innocent .....
...amongst our troops.

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TheWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #349
370. Nah.
It's because you have an agenda, and it's been painfully obvious for a while now.

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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #341
363. Bluetothebone,most of those post deal with troops if and when they become
Edited on Sun Mar-06-05 02:09 PM by oasis
cops. Concern for the psychological challenges that lie ahead for our troops is understandable. Those were the posts by Conservtivesux (sp).

Indiana Green condemns the Iraq war as a criminal act. Kofi Annan used more diplomatic terms.

It would be a stretch to say that they are painting our troops with the broad brush of "murdering criminals".

IMO,ninety-nine percent of DU members are on the our side in the pursuit of justice and human dignity. None of responses on this thread, by any poster, would indicate otherwise.
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Blue to the bone Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #363
378. Sorry Oasis, but the broad brush was most definitely used.....
Look at posts 145 and 146. I ask IG the following:

<<So, our soldiers are murderers, right?>>

His response:

<<Yes, they acted outside international law, so they are criminals.>>

He's also likened them to Nazis via the 'good German' analogy.

Deny his words if you wish, but he's clearly stated his views of our servicemen and women.
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-05 02:48 AM
Response to Reply #378
404. On post #146 there is a link provided by the poster. The person in the
linked piece uses the word "murder", the poster, Indiana green, does not.

Indiana Green refers to the behavior of the troops who shot up the journalist's car as "criminal". She was specifically refering to those troops, not ALL US troops.

BTW, IG is a she.
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Pachamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 02:28 AM
Response to Original message
322. I got my PACE flag from Rome hanging outside my house! I hope to see them
a lot too this weekend and in the coming weeks in Italy! :hi:

Actually, if you are in Rome and around Italy, you know that they are everywhere.

On my local news tonite, they said that the Journalist who was shot was known to have been Anti-American before the war....

Sheesh, the US Military and Bush Administration will come up with any excuse for their actions, won't they?

I listened to the story that the US claims that about what happened and then to an interview with her, and I don't think the US version stands up. Without knowing all the details, I can only say that I can only imagine that our soldiers are like a bunch of scared cowboys with guns blazing thinking that anyone driving towards them, even at 2 miles per hour is a danger to them and they just shoot and ask questions later.

I don't trust Italian Prime Minister Berlusconi any more than I trust Bush's motives on anything. I think the only reason he is greeting her and playing up this is because he knows how the Italian people feel about the War in Iraq and they want Italy out of there...He's trying to save face and calm the Italian people down.

I hope the Italian people raise their voices like the Spaniards did and insist that Berlusconi listen to them....

:kick:
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-05 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #322
414. Come siete Pachamama?
Molto buon! Accosento con voi! Spero che gli italiani protestino come lo Spagnolo!

:kick: Pra o malandro fela da puta nesta thread. ;)
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Robeson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 05:14 AM
Response to Original message
329. We've pissed off somebody else? Imagine that!
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 09:53 AM
Response to Original message
337. Recent related threads in LBN ...
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dArKeR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
350. How can AP's MARIA SANMINIATELLI write 'sped' when Sgrena said it's not
true?
Meanwhile, an autopsy performed on the agent who died trying to save Giuliana Sgrena reportedly showed he was struck in the temple by a single round and died instantly as the car carrying Sgrena sped to the Baghdad airport

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/2005...
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Merlin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #350
358. Good fucking point. n/t
.
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chomskysright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #350
359. good link: this says it all: block the journalists....
"The military mission must carry on because it consolidates democracy and liberty in Iraq," Communications Minister Maurizio Gasparri was quoted as saying by the ANSA news agency. "On the other hand, we must control but not block the presence of civilians and journalists, who must observe rules and behavior to reduce the risks."

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kilgore65 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
356. as an aside, y'all may be interested in reading this info on Bush's ...
ambassador to Italy, the shopping center developer Max Sembler and his fascist anti-drug program STRAIGHT... God, what an embarrassment...
http://www.thestraights.com/thestraights1.htm

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Merlin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
362. Why would the US want her dead?
The only possible answer is that we were pissed about the ransom payments and wanted to enforce our prohibition against such negotiations by making sure they didn't succeed in this case.

It's not just an idle hypothesis. She says her captors warned her the Americans would try to kill her when they released her.

In this Yahoo story from a couple of hours ago:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/2005...

...in an interview with Italian La 7 TV, Sgrena said "...I felt his last breath as he died on me."

Suddenly, she said, she remembered her captors' words, when they warned her "to be careful because the Americans don't want you to return."

Sgrena wrote that her captors warned her as she was about to be released not to signal her presence to anyone, because "the Americans might intervene." She said her captors blindfolded her and drove her to a location where she was turned over to agents and they set off for the airport.


Wonder why the article says she "wrote" this, then provides no link to here writing.

Earlier in the piece it also reports:

Sgrena, who works for the communist daily Il Manifesto, did not rule out that she was targeted, saying the United States likely disapproved of Italy's methods to secure her release, although she did not elaborate.

"The fact that the Americans don't want negotiations to free the hostages is known," Sgrena told Sky TG24 television by telephone, her voice hoarse and shaky. "The fact that they do everything to prevent the adoption of this practice to save the lives of people held hostages, everybody knows that. So I don't see why I should rule out that I could have been the target."


At first this seems so unlikely. We want to think they (we) wanted her dead because of what she had written, not how she was released.

But when you think about it further, it's typical of bush regime tactics. It's the "Salvador option" in action, as another DUer noted above.
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chomskysright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-05 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #362
412. b/c she speaks the truth: Napalm bombings and prison torture....

http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2005/03/benefit-o...

First, a July, 2004 interview with a woman tortured in Abu Ghraib:

I asked her if she was held on her own all the time. 'No. It was then that they put me in a cell with other women, two women per cell. There were thirteen women, mainly wives of men belonging to the previous regime, and seven children. There was even the wife of Sabah Merza, one of Saddam's guards in the 1970s, who kept her hands plunged in ice to soothe the pain caused by the torture that had been inflicted on her. Another woman was in really bad shape: they'd kept hurling her against the wall. Another had been locked in a tiny cage for six days and couldn't even move. One of the prisoners had been forced to walk on all fours and her knees and elbows were in a terrible state. Another woman had been forced to separate faeces from urine, using her own hands. The soldiers frequently forced us to drink water from the toilet bowl. A woman of sixty, who had said she was a virgin, was continually threatened with rape.'

Did you know of cases of rape? 'Yes, but I'm not going to go into that. In our society, it's something you don't talk about.' How old were the women prisoners? 'Between forty and sixty years of age.' And what about children, how were they treated? 'We heard them screaming. They were tortured too. Mostly dogs were set on them.'

And last November, in Fallujah:

"We buried them, but we could not identify them because they were charred from the napalm bombs used by the Americans." People from Saqlawiya village, near Falluja, told al Jazeera television, based in Qatar, that they helped bury 73 bodies of women and children completely charred, all in the same grave. The sad story of common graves, which started at Saddams times, is not yet finished. Nobody could confirm if napalm bombs have been used in Falluja, but other bodies found last year after the fierce battle at Baghdad airport were also completely charred and some thought of nuclear bombs. No independent source could verify the facts, since all the news arrived until now are those spread by journalists embedded with the American troops, who would only allow British and American media to enrol with them. But the villagers who fled in the last few days spoke of many bodies which had not been buried: it was too dangerous to collect the corpses during the battle.

As she was released, Sgrena's captors - whoever they were - warned her to take care, because "there are Americans who don't want you to go back."
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SodoffBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
364. I'm chilled knowing how cold-blooded the Bush administration is
They will stop at NOTHING to get "their" oil. Control of the media is paramount to them, and anyone who they feel gets in their way is going to be toast in short order.
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sr_pacifica Donating Member (775 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #364
374. Bush and Rumsfeld
Edited on Sun Mar-06-05 03:35 PM by sr_pacifica
Notice how they both have said how they "regret" the shootings. There must be a rule in this administration to never use the word "sorry" or "apology."

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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 06:20 PM
Response to Original message
384. Dead Messengers: How the U.S. Military Threatens Journalists
Do American soldiers purposely kill journalists, as CNN's Eason Jordan supposedly said? Or, could the problem be even worse?

Eason Jordan, CNN's freshly ousted news chief, hardly knew what hit him. On Thursday, January 27, he was schmoozing with the global A-List at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland. On Friday, February 11, he was looking for work.

"After 23 years at CNN," he wrote, "I have decided to resign in an effort to prevent CNN from being unfairly tarnished by the controversy over conflicting accounts of my recent remarks regarding the alarming number of journalists killed in Iraq."
....

Barney Frank, the liberal Massachusetts Congressman, spoke on the panel with Jordan and later added details of his own reaction.

"It sounded as if was saying the killings had been deliberate," Frank told the Miami Herald. "I sat up, and I said, 'That's very troubling to me, I feel an obligation to act on this.' "

"I'm not saying this is American military policy," Jordan responded, as Congressman Frank recalled. But Jordan insisted that U. S. soldiers had deliberately shot at journalists and not been punished,

Was Jordan talking about cases of mistaken identity or itchy trigger finger "in the heat of battle," Frank asked.

No, said Jordan.

....

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/022405A.shtml
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sr_pacifica Donating Member (775 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
388. Let's put the pressure on
I urge everyone who gives a damn about this horrific event to flood the White House with your comments: 202-456-1414. And call your reps too. The news media is allowing this story to fade into the background as though it is merely an Italian concern. We need to make our government and military stand accountable for this tragic occurrence.
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chomskysright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #388
389. KICK!
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chlamor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #389
394. Kick!




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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-05 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #394
408. Kick!
:kick:
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chomskysright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-05 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #388
413. cal your rep: 202 224 3121
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