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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 09:40 AM
Original message
Chiropractic college killed

Flexing its muscles, Florida's Board of Governors rebuffed the state Legislature and killed a proposed chiropractic school that lawmakers said last year should go to Florida State University.


"In the end, the money didn't matter, and neither did a state law nor the potential wrath of state legislators.
Florida's Board of Governors, the panel pushed into existence by former U.S. Sen. Bob Graham to watch over Florida's public universities, voted Thursday to kill a proposal to set up the nation's first chiropractic college at a public university.

The panel shot down the college even though the Florida Legislature had authorized its creation a year ago in a state law and guaranteed Florida State University $9 million annually to operate it. Earlier this month, FSU's own trustees had asked for more time to let their own faculty review the merits of the college.

But by an overwhelming margin, the Board of Governors rejected the idea, questioning the need for the program and whether it fit into FSU's mission to become a nationally recognized research university. They also pointed fingers at FSU's trustees, chiding them for not taking a stronger vote in favor of the school two weeks ago."


"FSU's bid to open the chiropractic college, which would have offered a doctorate in chiropractic along with a master's degree in other areas, was moving along smoothly until November, when the Board of Governors demanded to review the proposal.
Initially, FSU officials and lawmakers were inclined to fight the board, saying the measure had been in the works for years. FSU officials relented, but between that time and Thursday's vote, the university's own faculty began to rise up against the proposal, stoked on by a small band of angry alumni. Many faculty members derided chiropractic as ''pseudoscience'' and openly expressed fears that a college for chiropractic would harm FSU's academic reputation. Chiropractors in turn accused medical doctors of professional bigotry and turf-guarding."
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midnight armadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
1. Less quackery in the world!
Ah, good news from Florida for once. I'm surprised the story doesn't contain any mention of the Tasering of defenseless children.
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MissMarple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
2. There is a niche for good chiropractors.
But some of them try to act like M.D.s. That gives them all a bad reputation.
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Chiropractic: A Skeptical View by William T. Jarvis, Ph.D.
Chiropractic: A Skeptical View
William T. Jarvis, Ph.D.

Chiropractic is the most significant nonscientific health-care delivery system in the United States. As a result of their high level of organization and aggressiveness, chiropractors are licensed to practice in all 50 states and several foreign countries. Although a minority of chiropractors offer rational treatment, chiropractic's cultism is so well entrenched that the profession should be viewed as a societal problem, not simply as a competitor of regular health-care.

Spinal manipulation can be useful, but chiropractic's theoretical basis rests largely on a strange and never-demonstrated notion of "subluxations." "Chiropractic" literally means "done by hand" (chiros = hand; praktos practice), referring to manipulation of the spine. Manipulation (i.e., "the forceful, passive movement of a joint beyond its active limit of motion," according to Dorland's Illustrated Medical Dictionary) is not the exclusive domain of chiropractors. Folk practitioners sometimes called "bonesetters" have long used the notion of bones "going out of place" to explain maladies, and they employ manipulation as a panacea. Andrew Taylor Still invented "osteopathy" based upon the theory that luxated bones interfere with blood circulation, producing all manner of diseases. (Osteopathy officially abandoned Still's theory in 1948.)

Today, physiotherapists, athletic trainers, and several types of medical doctors sometimes employ manipulation for neuromusculoskeletal conditions. There is sufficient evidence that manipulation can at least temporarily improve the range of motion of impaired joints and relieve pain -- sometimes dramatically -- to make it a worthwhile, although limited, medical procedure. Manipulation requires a good deal of individual skill, which many chiropractors possess.

Chiropractic's uniqueness is not in its use of manipulation but in its theoretical basis for doing so -- which also explains why chiropractors overutilize spinal manipulation therapy (SMT), often applying it without justification.

Chiropractic is the brainchild of Daniel D. Palmer, a late-nineteenth century dabbler in metaphysical approaches to health care. Palmer had practiced phrenology and magnetic healing, and had some osteopathic training. He reported that a spiritualist medium inspired him in his search for "the single cause of all disease." He puzzled over the fact that pathogenic germs were found in both healthy and sick people and searched for an explanation. (Today, we know that the immune system makes the difference.) He claimed that in 1895 he restored the hearing of janitor Harvey Lillard and concluded that the spine was the key to health and disease.
Unique Theory

Palmer contrived the notion that "subluxations" of the spine impinge nerves, interfering with nerve flow, which he dubbed the Innate Life Force, and that all a practitioner had to do was to adjust the spine -- the healing powers of nature would do the rest. Neither Palmer nor any other chiropractor has ever been able to reliably demonstrate the existence of "subluxations," much less validate their importance to health and disease. Nevertheless, chiropractic has thrived and now has about 60,000 practitioners in the United States.

When chiropractors are challenged to explain precisely what effect nerve impingement is supposed to have upon a nerve impulse (i.e., frequency of propagation, amplitude, etc.), they either fall back upon metaphysical notions of the Innate Life Force or evoke one of many common ploys:

* Make a virtue of their ignorance by retorting that they don't know how it works but that it does.
* Claim that studies to determine the mechanism are now under way or just completed but unpublished (the "Oh, haven't you heard? You're behind the times!" ploy)
* Change the official rhetoric by adding ambiguous language: "Pathological processes may be influenced by disturbances of the nervous system. . . . Disturbances of the nervous system may be the result of derangements of the musculoskeletal structure. Disturbances of the nervous system may cause or aggravate disease in various parts or functions of the body." {1}These three statements are true but do not support chiropractic's subluxation theory or the general notion that spinal problems are an underlying cause of disease.

They do this while continuing to practice as if subluxations were an established reality.

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dryan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. I have nothing....
against chiropractic but we didn't need this school. Why is the Law School for FAMU (located in Tallahassee) in Orlando?
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #3
27. Whatever, my chiropractor fixed a debilitating pain
That i suffered from for years... and "KRRRAAAK"... and wow! i never
realized how much it hurt until it was gone... every single day
a subtle pain... back pain can be so deadening... and a real mood killer.

Since then, i go to an osteopath (same thing as chiropractor in the UK)
whenever i have the slightest back pain... and it is amazing how well
it works... for all the people crying "quackery" in this thread.

A chiropractor explained to me that the spine is like a building with
every story stacked on the lower story, that if one of the lower
vertebra is out of alignment, one of the uppper ones will generally
be out the other way to keep alignment... so the fixing starts at the
bottom and works its way up.

I've even had them do my feet and hips as muscular influences to
spinal misalignment.... all of it very helpful. I would recommend
a good chiropractor to anyone with any sort of back pain... its
really amazing despite what the quack rationalists have to say.
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liberalnurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. In all fairness, yes .....
But the few really, really have stained the practice. It's too bad the Chiropractic Association has not monitored their peers effectively.

My beef is with their delusional, misleading thinking and treat patients with say, a lumbar strain using Electric Stim, Ultrasound and Massage/Manipulation 3 times a week for a year ... and get insulted when the insurance stops the payment of services.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #5
12. How can we expect them to monitor their peers,
when the mainstream medical professionals don't monitor theirs?

If 5% of physicians are responsible for 95% of malpractice claims, why don't the 95% dump the 5%? They don't, and medical insurance costs skyrocket.

Maybe when the medical professionals clean up their act, Chiropractic will clean up theirs.
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liberalnurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. That is another thread......
Edited on Fri Jan-28-05 11:25 AM by liberalnurse
This is about chiropractors....why change the subject?

To answer your off topic question....the Medical community is not being denied school developement, chiro's are.....thats the issue of discussion on this thread.
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lateo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
6. I love my Chiropractor...
Yes, some of the things he does is quakery but when my back is hurting he is the first place I go these days. I spent years suffering from chronic back pain...going to the doctor to get muscle relaxants and anti-inflamitory drugs...then I discovered my Chiropractor. I still see my doctor for my back pain but I speed the healing by also visiting my Chropractor.

It is heaven getting my back cracked at his office and I always leave feeling great.
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Just don't let him touch your neck
Chiropractic is great for lower-back pain, but dangerous for the neck.

And pediatric chiropractic should be outlawed.
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lateo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #7
17. Not in my experience...
I had a neck injury for 10 years that the regular medical doctors couldn't cure. After 4 visits to my Chiropractor I have full mobility in my neck again.

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Piperay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #6
32. I love mine too
I was in constant pain until I started chiropractic treatment, now I am able to do things I couldn't do for years.
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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 10:59 AM
Response to Original message
8. chiropractic as ''pseudoscience'' ???? Neanderthals!!!!
And THIS, in an institution of higher education??? This is the 21st century, and yet there are still so many who haven't got a clue!!

Chiropractors are an essential component to the health and well-being of any population. They are treated as "witches" by ignorant people who have never seen the inside of a chiropractor's office....I guess they'd just rather go into unnecessary surgery and have their bones fused together or the good ole MEDICAL ESTABLISHMENT. Either that, or people just like to take pain meds forever & ever, amen.

There are good chiropractors, and bad chiropractors....just like there are good doctors and bad doctors. The bad ones destroy people's lives, but the good ones save people's lives, and support a good quality of life. Chiropractors rock! They've helped me and my husband....and many, many friends of mine, in situations where the medical doctors did not have a frikkin' CLUE what to do....other than hard drugs and dangerous surgery, of course.


:kick: :kick: :kick:
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. That would be because they're frauds
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #8
22. Why is it that
you can't find 10 chiropractors who agree on what a subluxation is, or demonstrate the actual existence of such a condition? It is the basis of their practice - why is it so mysterious?
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LibDemAlways Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
9. I used to have friends who became
a husband/wife chiropractic team. They subscribed to the notion that all illness could be cured by chiropractic and that all of the world's problems could be solved through "adjustments." I'm not kidding. They once showed me a video featuring a well-known tv actor - whose name escapes me - showing an atomic bomb going off because people weren't visiting their chiropractors.

I'm not saying all chiropractors are quacks, but those two certainly are - and they are still practicing in Southern California.
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pantouflard Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
10. Much of Chiro School is devoted to marketing. No kidding.
They teach you how to see the most patients in the least amount of time, how to keep them coming back, how to get new clients and how to sell supplements.

I once had a chiropractor tell me he could analyze my urine, and then adjust my knees and elbows for each allergy I had.

No thanks.
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liberalnurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. I know that is true.......
I have been with injured workers as their case manager....attended a physician visit....there was this chiro who said the same thing; said he could analyze the patient by looking into his eyes.....He actually frightened me......I was speechless for once.
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ernstbass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
14. Quack quack
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
16. Quacks in every field and profession and category of work/play
There are quacks everywhere. Even government. Do we outlaw them all? No. Do we regulate them all? No. Who would regulate them all? The government. Who regulates the government? The people.

Go ahead and laugh at me.

But there are quacks everywhere which is why regulation and common sense (an oxymoron) "beware buyer" is needed.
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Sgent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. As long as chiropractors
continue to hold onto the idea of subluxations, they are quacks.

The fact that no two chiropractors can find the same subluxations on an x-ray, IMHO, means they are completely made up.

That being said, there is a lot of benefit to manipulation, and a modern chiropractor that uses evidence based manipulation can be a valuable part of a medical course of treatment.
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LibertyLover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
18. Chiropractors in Florida
I am really glad that FSU' board rejected this proposal. In my opinion, Florida (or the rest of the US) doesn't need any more chiropractors. My family has reason to know.

About 10 years ago Susan, one of my cousins, 24 at the time, was living in Florida. She had had a baby about 2 months before and during the delivery her coccyx had been injured. She tried chiropractic and found that it helped. For some reason her chiropractor convinced her after a few spine manipulation sessions that she need neck manipulations too. During the second one she had a stroke, later determined to have been caused by a blood clot loosened by the manipulations. Luckily her mother was visiting, helping her with the baby. The doctor's office called the house to say that Susan was behaving oddly. Susan's mom put the baby in the car and rushed over to find her daughter stumbling around in the parking lot outside the office, mentally confused as well as having physical problems. My aunt got her in the car, and drove her to the nearest ER where the cause of Susan's problem was determined.

My aunt went back to the chiropractor's office a few days later to retrieve Susan's pocketbook, which she had left in her confusion, and asked why they had let her leave when she was in such obvious distress. The office girls first said they hadn't noticed any problem (then why did you call and say that Susan was behaving oddly?) and then said that it was policy not to hinder a patient if they wanted to leave, even if they were not in control of their faculties.

My cousin had a long but ultimately successful recovery and only has a little residual weakness on her right side and slight droop to her mouth when she gets tired. She even went on and had another child, although the pregnancy was deemed high risk because of the stroke. And there was a malpractice lawsuit which was settled out of court. The family had enough evidence, medical and otherwise, that had it gone to court, they would have won.
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enki23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
20. i can't believe they came that close to doing it
Edited on Fri Jan-28-05 02:47 PM by enki23
what next, the Iowa State University school of ear candling and craniosacral therapy?
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Just make sure you recharge your hot rocks under a full moon
by the outlet of a stream into the ocean and you'll be ok.
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. Proposed map of FSU campus:

To poke fun at Florida State University's bid for a chiropractic school, an FSU professor has created a new campus map. Opponents of the proposed school say more than 500 faculty members have signed petitions against it.

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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. lol..great map
but the artist forgot the holding pen asylum for the criminally insane and other sociopaths (otherwise known as the football team!)
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
21. Excellent news
Chiropractic has no place in a state university system. They may as well offer a Masters program in astrology.
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soup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 03:22 PM
Response to Original message
26. Politics and pet projects
In an Election Year, Legislature Likely Headed for Smooth Session

By Brendan Farrington Associated Press Writer
Published: Feb 14, 2004

TALLAHASSEE, Fla. (AP) - Don't expect state lawmakers to feud like they did last year. And don't expect a slew of special sessions to finish up business, either. And even when there's disagreement between the House and Senate, the leaders will probably be cordial about their differences.

It is an election year, after all.

Gov. Jeb Bush's brother is seeking a second term as president. House Speaker Johnnie Byrd hopes to replace retiring U.S. Sen. Bob Graham. Many lawmakers are running for re-election or pursuing other political goals.

An image of harmony is already developing among Republicans who control the Legislature.

"Everyone knows what the priority is and that is re-electing the president and winning the Senate seat," said Geoffrey Becker, executive director of the Republican Party of Florida.
(apologies if the link is no longer viable)


Here's a pretty good summary of the politics involved:

School proposal got easy approval

How FSU's chiropractic college came to pass opens a window on the workings of legislative politics.

By STEVE BOUSQUET, Times Staff Writer
Published January 9, 2005

TALLAHASSEE - Most legislative studies gather dust on a shelf. Not this one.

This study turned into an unstoppable political force that is more controversial than ever: the nation's first public chiropractic college, proposed at Florida State University.

Largely because of the influence of the chiropractors' lobby and lawmakers with FSU connections, the school got $9-million a year in public money with virtually no public scrutiny or debate.

FSU did not initially ask for the money. Gov. Jeb Bush, who once vetoed money for the chiropractic school as unnecessary, said he supported it last year to end a feud between legislative leaders.
>full article, definitely worth the time to read:


Byrd plans get funds; rate freeze foes don't

Republicans who voted against a phone rate freeze had their local water projects killed.

By JENNIFER LIBERTO, Times Staff Writer
Published April 29, 2004

Legislative power has its privileges, and Senate President Jim King used his to steer $25-million to a chiropractic school at Florida State University. The project is a priority of Senate Majority Leader Dennis Jones, R-Treasure Island, a chiropractor.

King also directed $1.5-million for police and fire safety equipment for Welaka, the tiny town on the St. John's River where King owns a weekend getaway.

"There's never a night that goes by, when I'm sleeping in my trailer, that I'm not afraid there might be some rubber-boat attack," King joked.


The part I find hilarious about this is jeb's recent rant about 'not bowing to political pressure', which is Exactly what he did to keep the peace between the Senate and the House for last year's lead up to the election:

Bush criticizes FSU handling of chiropractic school dispute

The state Board of Governors should "vote their consciences" on whether it gets built, he says.

By STEVE BOUSQUET, Times Staff Writer
Published January 19, 2005

TALLAHASSEE - Gov. Jeb Bush on Tuesday criticized the way Florida State University has handled a controversial proposal to create the nation's first public chiropractic school, and called for deep spending cuts in the program.

Bush urged his appointees on the 16-member Board of Governors, which oversees Florida universities and must approve the chiropractic school, to "vote their consciences" in a critical meeting next week.

"They shouldn't be swayed by political pressure," Bush said. "This has gotten way out of hand. They ought to vote what they believe to be the right way to go for the state university system."

Bush's comments appeared to provide maneuvering room for members of the Board of Governors, most of whom are appointed by Bush, to vote against the school Jan. 27.


In the meantime, professors were threatening to resign:

Chiropractic school angers FSU professors

Some threaten to resign over the proposed school.

By RON MATUS, Times Staff Writer
Published December 29, 2004

A growing number of professors in the Florida State University College of Medicine are saying they will resign if FSU administrators continue to pursue a proposed chiropractic school.

"I would no longer wish to volunteer my teaching energies to FSU medical school, should it encompass a school of chiropractic," wrote Dr. Ian Rogers, an assistant professor at FSU's Pensacola campus, in a Dec. 15 e-mail. "This is plainly ludicrous!!!!"

The threatened resignations - at least seven to date, all from assistant professors who work part time - reflect a belief among many in the medical establishment that chiropractic is a "pseudo-science" that leads to unnecessary and sometimes harmful treatments. Professors are even circulating a parody map of campus that places a fictional Bigfoot Institute, School of Astrology and Crop Circle Simulation Laboratory near a future chiropractic school.

But some FSU faculty members are upset, too, fearing the school will shatter FSU's academic reputation. The list of critics include FSU's two Nobel laureates - Robert Schreiffer, a physicist, and Harold Walter Kroto, a chemist - and Robert Holton, the chemistry professor who developed the cancer-fighting drug Taxol, which has brought FSU tens of millions of dollars in royalties.

In recent weeks, more than 500 faculty members have signed petitions against the chiropractic school, including about 70 in the medical college, said Dr. Raymond Bellamy, an assistant professor who is leading the charge against the proposal. The medical college has more than 100 faculty members.

Politics, Florida style.
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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
28. "Research" is where it's AT!
"...whether it fit into FSU's mission to become a nationally recognized research university."

You get Major Money one of 2 ways in this country if you're a college.
Either you go to a lot of Bowl Games and place high up in the "Final Four", or you stick your tongue down Industy's throat, offering them cut-rate R and D services. Lots of graduate students willing to do the low-paid grunt work for your next block-buster product line in exchange for a PhD...

There was a report from one of those "Blue Ribbon Panels" that said my school should get out of the Undergrad business, because it wasn't cost-effective. Uh, we're a LAND GRANT University? We have a constitutional DUTY to provide Undergrad education? Hello?

Why can't they go to Palmer if they wanna learn to be a back-cracker?
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
29. Kudos to DUers!

It's nice to see that skeptical analysis and commonsense critical thinking skills still exist around here. Without the ability to distinguish between fantasy and reality, between medicine and glorified witchcraft, society moves that much closer to the Dark Ages so beloved of the Freeptards.
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Borgnine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 05:21 PM
Response to Original message
30. Spinal manipulation does work, but... don't need a chiropractor. Seriously, just get somebody to step on your back. It does the trick for me, I don't have to pay anything, and no once is the word "subluxation" ever mentioned.
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. I'd rather have a chiropractor than a well-intentioned friend
If I was having lower-back pain, I'd rather go to a chiropractor.

At least they have malpractice insurance.

But again, for anything other than lower back or muscular / joint pain, they're either worthless or dangerous.

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CindyDale Donating Member (941 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #31
33. My dad went to chiropractors for over 60 years and swore by them
He had arthritis in his neck because of a football injury as a teenager.

Some were better than others, though, he said.

He tried acupuncture, too, but said the effects didn't last as long as the chiropractic manipulation.

I got a treatment once when I took my dad. Didn't do that much for me, but I thought it was interesting that the doc was able to tell I have a habit of lying on the sofa with my head up on the arm.

I think if it works, it's better for someone than taking those drugs with all the horrible side effects. I wonder if the pharmaceutical industry pays for propaganda against chiropractors for that reason.

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