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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 03:05 AM
Original message
WP,pg1: Bible Breaks at Public Schools Face Challenges in Rural Virginia
Bible Breaks at Public Schools Face Challenges in Rural Virginia

By Carol Morello
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, January 23, 2005; Page A01


....For 65 years, weekday Bible classes have been part of the fabric of growing up in this town of 24,000 in Augusta County and in a score of other small towns and hamlets in rural Virginia. It is such an accepted tradition that 80 to 85 percent of the first-, second- and third-graders in Staunton participate (in a nearby church).

But now, the practice is being challenged by a group of parents who have asked the School Board to end or modify weekday religious education. Not only do they fear that their children are stigmatized for not attending, but in a decidedly 21st-century twist, they also argue that interrupting class for Bible study hinders efforts to meet state and national standards for test scores....

***

Bible classes in public schools were once common across the nation. The first proponents in the early years of the last century were liberal Protestant reformers who believed Christianity would mitigate the evils of segregation and war, according to Jonathan Zimmerman, author of "Whose America? Culture Wars in the Public Schools."...

***

For decades, the lessons were conducted inside public school classrooms. But in its 1948 decision McCollum v. Board of Education, the Supreme Court ruled that the lessons violated the principle of separation of church and state. Amid criticism that it was atheistic, the court returned to the issue four years later in Zorach v. Clauson. That decision approved classes held away from school premises, ruling that the practice might be unwise from an educational viewpoint but that to prevent it would be hostile to religious freedom....


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A29266-20...
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Cats Against Frist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
1. Why can't they just do it after school?
OH THAT'S RIGHT NO DISSENT INDOCTRINATION TOTAL CONTROL YOU WILL BOW TO OUR MONEY GOD WE'RE GONNA RULE THE WORLD!!!!

At least they have a reason. :eyes:
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #1
41. In a rural area, kids may have to ride school buses to and from

school and not have other transportation, especially if they are in elementary school. With so many families having both parents working, it's difficult.

That's my guess as to why they can't change -- and I'll bet it's been considered. As the article points out, this was accepted practice for many years, when everyone attended the same churches.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #41
70. Okay then, why don't they just do this bible study
at church like most of the rest of the country's public school students do?

It is mind boggling to me that in the 21st century in this country that any part of the school day in a public school would be taken up for bible study!!

What are the test scores like in West Virginia?
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VirginiaDem Donating Member (574 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #70
119. Umm...what's this have to do with West Virginia? n/t
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #70
151. They do.
"It is such an accepted tradition that 80 to 85 percent of the first-, second- and third-graders in Staunton participate (<b>in a nearby church</b> ;)."

Or did you mean "on Sunday"? (In which case the probable answer--I'm guessing--is that the parents want the kids raised "proper", but don't actually bother going to church themselves often enough.
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wallybarron Donating Member (165 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #70
157. West Virginia
and Virginia two different states.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #41
101. In the early 50s, when I was in elementary school in California (Glendale)
Edited on Sun Jan-23-05 04:58 PM by TahitiNut
... we had "bible study" (once or?) twice a week. The teachers (on a public salary) would queue us up in religiously-segregated lines at the back gate of the playground. When the gate opened, some kids would go one place, others would go another place, and a small group to a third place, somewhere in the YMCA that adjoined school property.

It was 4th grade. I had a "girlfriend." We called her 'Annie' (with a 'funny' last name). Everyone liked her; me especially. Annie and I were put in separate lines. When we asked to be in the same line, we were told we had to get our parents' permission. Neither gave their permission. It turned out that Annie was Catholic. (We really didn't know about that stuff.) We were segregated.



A couple of years later, after my family moved back to Michigan, I saw Annie with the 'funny' last name on TV. The 'funny' last name was funny-cello (Funicello). I rather enjoyed watching the 'A' and the 'E' disappear to either side of her sweatshirt over the years. Memories. Memories. Nostalgia ain't what it used to be.
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #101
196. Wow. Everone needs to read this post. (especially the small print).
that is chilling.

thanks for posting that, I didn't know kids were segregated in terms of religion.

this is one of those things I'll remember when I start to feel like nothing has changed.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #196
201. The Roman Catholic Church's ecumenism of the 60's changed some.
Edited on Tue Jan-25-05 09:33 AM by TahitiNut
In those days, however, a practicing Catholic had to get permission from their parish priest to attend the religious services or instruction of any other religion. It was almost never given for children. Further, since the presumption was that only Catholics were attending their instruction (much like catechism), the priest teaching it resisted other attendance unless conversion was sought. For kids in the 4th grade, it was virtually impossible. Both Annie and I were very disappointed.

My parents were titular Protestants (rarely attended church) and saw no virtue in my attendance at a Catholic instruction class. Even when I attended a Jesuit college where theology was required, non-Catholics were excused from class when Catholic dogma was covered under the condition they took that time to research and write a paper on their own faith or a chosen one.

I'll always remember, though, that being lined up in separate lines, not according to gender, age, or classroom, and lines that we couldn't change, gave us a clear impression that there was something 'different' about those 'other' kids - indeed, the more "home-educated" among us used some demeaning language. (I was pretty clueless.)


Some 20 years ago, shortly after moving back to California (Silicon Valley), I was driving south to visit my cousin in San Diego for the Fourth of July. Curious, I decided to take a short detour and try to find where I'd lived and went to school some 30+ years earlier in Glendale. Lo' and behold, I found the school (R. D. White Elementary School)! It looked like it hadn't changed at all. The neighborhood was unchanged, too. I parked my car and went over to the fence surrounding the asphalt playground. My God! It was unchanged! Identical! I saw the monkey bars where I showed off for Annie - and she for me. I saw the curbing around the base of a tree where we sat and played in the dirt. I saw the painted lines on the asphalt where I first learned to play baseball. (Embarassing! I was a 9-year-old who'd never learned to play baseball.) And I saw the gate in the back of the playground through which we went for 'bible classes.' Memories of Annie came flooding back. It was like a time warp. When I looked down at my body, it seemed overgrown for the 9-year-old I felt like. It was 1952 again. I'll never forget that personal "Somewhere In Time." It was hard to get back in my car. I was too young to drive.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 06:25 AM
Response to Reply #41
190. Everyone attended the same churches???
I can't believe you're even saying that.

You do know the real reason there's a public school system don't you? Catholic Schools were becoming so popular that the Protestants decided there had to be an alternative. And that the Protestant Bible would be taught in the alternative public school. This is anti-Catholic, beyond everything else, and I'll never understand Catholics that don't get it.
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #190
198. no way
makes sense to me.

wow.

truthfully, catholic schools still kick ass compared to public school, which is why so many non-catholics attend them.

aside from the pope though, the catholics I've known are a lot less obnoxious about their religion than protestants I've known.
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LizW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
2. Mind boggling
Why do people whose religion happens to be the majority belief think they have the right to use state resources to impose that religion on others?

Sure, they are not using state facilities, but they are using up the precious time that the schools have the children present.

I would be furious to find out that my children were being given coloring sheets and busy work while others went to church school during the school day.
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AliciaKeyedUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. School resources?
You mean like the ones used for football, or soccer or field hockey or speech and debate and music and such?

The people of this school district decided they want their children to have the time in the middle of the day for an extra-curricular activity that they support but do not mandate. How is that a problem?
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THUNDER HANDS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. because Jews are allowed to play football
last time I checked. We may not be good at it, but at least we can participate.
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AliciaKeyedUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. You can participate here too
It is an optional extracurricular, off-campus activity. But I have no doubt they would welcome you.
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MountainLaurel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #9
52. Bullshit
Welcoming, uh no. A good friend of mine grew up in this town. She spent most of her school years being told by her classmates and her TEACHERS that she was going to burn in hell because she went to a "pagan" church. (Her parents were Unitarian Universalists.) A Jewish family eventually fled because of the crap their kids had to put up with in school. That's how welcoming these sorts of "Christians" are to outsiders who don't share their beliefs.

If a non-fundie joined these extracurricular activities, it would either be a prostlyzing session, or that kid would be harangued the entire time for being a Jesus-killer, or a pagan, or just evil. They don't welcome folks who actually make them think.
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RetroLounge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #9
79. "interrupting class for Bible study "
is NOT an optional extracurricular, off-campus activity.

Duh.

RL
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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #79
83. Then you think the schools should prohibit the kids from leaving?
'cause that's the only thing I think they could do in this situation.

What about Muslim students who want to go to Mosque on Fridays?
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #6
43. Jews are allowed to read the Bible, too, at least the Old Testament,

and perhaps ought to read the NT to better understand Christianity, just like we'd all benefit from reading the Koran.
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Danmel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #43
116. Actually, we don't call it the Old Testament
That would imply a New one. It's called the Tanach, which stands for Torah (the 5 Books of Moses) Niveim (Prophets) and Kituvim (Writings).

In any event, Bible study, Torah Study, Koran Study, etc. best belong in dedicated religious schools or houses of worship. A comparative religion course is another matter entirely, but worship is something different.
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Tom Yossarian Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #4
11. Contrary to popular opinion, there are people who choose to think
Edited on Sun Jan-23-05 11:47 AM by Tom Yossarian Joad
rather than drink the fundie kool aide. Those people might decide that believing that things we don't understand is not due to magic.


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AliciaKeyedUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. There is no Koolaid required here
This is all voluntary and many choose not to join. Sounds ideal actually.
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Tom Yossarian Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #12
27. I'm sure it does "sound ideal" to you and your ilk.
"religion" belongs in the classroom/public school system as much as classes in phrenology.

That's all we need, a new crop of morons running around saying the world is only 6,000 years old.

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AliciaKeyedUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. Wow, I have an ilk now
This is NOT religion in the classroom and THAT seems ideal to me.

This is a classic example of a religious community coming to terms with keeping religion separate from those who do not want it. That many here object even to this is pathetic.
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PA Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #31
38. Let me quote you then on a thread in which the topic of
the inclusion of children with disabilities was being discussed. You stated:

"School is about educating, not just about making things look good.
Compassion is great, but it's not what schools are in business to teach."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

I would contend that children can learn much about the teachings of Christ without religion classes. There are lessons of compassion and tolerance that children can learn every single day without being pulled out of class for Bible classes.




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Tom Yossarian Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #31
44. If you consider so many here to be "pathetic," why do you persist
in hanging around? Ya' gonna save us?

Proselytize somewhere else. Some of us heathens are quite content to remain as we are.

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AliciaKeyedUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #44
67. I considering objecting to this pathetic
It doesn't mean I consider the people pathetic.
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arwalden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #44
166. Isn't It Obvious?
-- Allen

PS: Love your animated Bart!
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silvermachine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #166
184. Female Frodo....
....with a religious slant, rather than an economic one.
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ldf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #4
34. because wasting time in the middle of the day
is just that, wasting time.

if parents want to teach their children a religion, they can do it on their own time.

what, they don't HAVE time? well, they can MAKE time. all good things require sacrifice, do they not?

it is absolutely stupid to make students NOT attending the "church" bible class to sit around wasting THEIR time.

maybe while the little godbots are away getting their daily brainwash of perpetual intolerance, the students NOT participating could be taking a class on RELIGIONS, note the plural, and their disastrous affects on the civilizations they touched. do you think THAT would be allowed?

it is not about allowing bible class during school. it is about the captive audience.

they WANT to set up a situation where the children who do not attend are, dare i say it, PERSECUTED for their choice to not attend. because persecuting non-participants is just fine because the so-called little christian persecutors do it BECAUSE of their religion.

and if they are made to feel uncomfortable enough, they will give up and succumb to the pressure. which is EXACTLY the purpose of the so-called christians.

but you know that.

and to equate that with a physical education class is ludicrous. you know, there were times when the public education system was actually concerned about the student's physical health, too, and not just the kickbacks they could get from vending machines placed in the hallways that disgorged fatty, useless calories.

as for speech and debate? fine, let the so-called christians have to debate their beliefs. but again, you know that would not be acceptable because the debate may force them to think, and that is NOT allowed.

as an aside, is your sole purpose on this board to try to shove your religous beliefs down the rest of our collective throats?

yeah, go forth and teach, blah blah blah. you can do it on this board when you know we wouldn't tolerate it in our face. real brave of you.

i wonder if the church would tolerate us showing up to debate them during their services. after all, they ARE services that are open to the public, just like this board is open to the public.

oh, this board is not private property? but the church IS private property? the public sidewalks out front are just that, public. but do you think crowds of protesters would be tolerated on those sidewalks?

i seriously doubt it. freedom and equality for all is the antithesis of the basis of your warped interpretation of religion.

if this country is based on freedom of religion, let the school rotate the religions weekly. that is the only truly american freedom/liberty/democratic way of doing, don't you think?

and by the way, you can preach till you are blue in the face. you ain't necessarily preaching to the choir here.

and blue is certainly not a becoming color on you.

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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #4
61. "Bible classes in public schools were once common across the nation."
This is pure propaganda and bullshit. I went to grade school during the 30's in Colorado Springs, which even then was a stronghold for right wingers in those days. And never once did I hear of this kind of religious hijacking behavior.

The Baptist are so full of it I can't believe it!!
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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #61
71. Propaganda by who? The Post?
I think they are referring to the 1700s and 1800s, when most public schools, for lack of curriculum, used the Bible as a basis to teach. What does the Post say that is erroneous, and what do "the Baptists" have to do with it?
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #71
133. Read the article and figure it out for yourself.
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purji Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #4
62. So having a wiccan class
Or a Buddhist class,wouldn't offend Christians.After all they are free to participate too.
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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #62
66. If those classes were off of school grounds
and not paid for by the school, and students were not required to attend, or pressured or inhibited from attending, then Wicca/Buddhist classes would be perfectly legal.
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ldf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #66
126. legal is one thing
but do you think they would be tolerated?

these loving so-called christians would be frothing at the mouth about it.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #4
73. They must not have any
Jewish or Muslim kids in West Virginia.

And last time I checked, extra-curriculur means outside of school hours. At least, that is the definition we use where I teach.
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VirginiaDem Donating Member (574 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #73
120. Did I miss something? Why West Virginia?! n/t
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #120
200. I grew up in rural Virginia, and I don't remember anything like this.
But I was exceptionally lucky in that the principal of my high school was a Black woman, Patricia B. Lancaster, the first in the state and one of less than ten women principals. My civics teacher was an amazing Jewish woman named Toby Friedman, who educated us about the holocaust, which included bringing some horrific film from the holocaust camps (medical experiments) and showing them in class. I't heartbreaking to say that I don't know if she could get away with that today.

Ms. Friedman took us to Washington D.C. umpteen times on field trips and I am so glad that she was our chaperone on those trips, we got her perspective, and she was a ball of fire. Of course I did not appreciate it at the time, but looking back I can't believe how fortunate I was. My senior year I moved to a 4A school that was in the "West Wealth Sector" of Knoxville. The school and everything in it were state of the art, but no where was the diversity I had seen in rural VA. It was all achingly middle class/nouveau riche political conservatism, and just a handful of black students in a school of about 4000 kids.
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wallybarron Donating Member (165 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #73
160. Virginia and West Virginia
West Virginia became a state June 20, 1863. Augusta County is in Virginia.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #4
76. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
AliciaKeyedUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #76
88. Debate and other things like band do practice in the day
My children have "free periods" and can do extracurriculars then.

This is not in school and they are doing what they can to work with the separation of church and state. Why does that offend you?
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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #76
90. Yes and Yes
When I came through the system, the jocks were often excused from class early Fridays to prepare for the JV games. I didn't always like it, but if it's school policy, it's school policy.

The Academic Team would go on a local television program to compete occasionally, and they were excused from class.

Any Bible or religious group of students should have the same privilleges as the jocks/academic groups. That's the 1st amendment: "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" part.
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PA Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #90
192. Are you aware that civil rights are not absolute?
Classic example is that free speech does not guarantee me the right to scream "FIRE!" in a dark crowded theater if there is no fire. These children's right to practice religion DURING the school day could arguably be said to be an infringement of the nonparticipants right to receive an education, due to the fact that class has been suspended.

As I mentioned in a later thread there are more than 3,500 waking hours per year in which the typical elementary school student is not in the public school classroom. That leaves plenty of time for Bible classes.
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arwalden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #192
199. Such Simple And Rational Distinctions Escape Many Here...
... either they are incapable of understanding the concepts, or--more likely--they simply ignore it. They pretend not to understand because they don't care. It doesn't fit with their egotistical worldview.

That was a good post, PA-Democrat. It will be interesting to see who attacks it and how they choose to do so.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 06:29 AM
Response to Reply #4
191. That stuff is AFTER school
Kids can have Bible classes during lunch or after school, just like any other extra-curricular. But disrupting the classroom for Bible class is altogether a different matter. I cannot understand why we've got to have religion in the schools. I never had it a day in my life and neither have any of my kids.
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #2
197. it's something we are coming out of, not going into.
The fact that we can feel aghast at it is actually a very positive and hopeful sign. I was watching the Shakespeare thing on PBS the other night and they were talking about how during that time the national religion was changed three times in 12 years.
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PA Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
3. Bernie Ward is discussing this right now on his radio show
He just slammed a guy who said that this should be allowed. The guy told Bernie that people who had a problem with this being done could home school or send their kids to a private school. Unbelievable.

http://www.kgoam810.com/complexshowdj.asp?DJID=3284
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AliciaKeyedUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. The children are not forced to go
And the article makes it clear that many do not.
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THUNDER HANDS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. 10-20% do not
And think about the stigma that gets attached to the kids and the parents of those kids who refuse. You think being different is accepted kindly in podunk places like these?
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AliciaKeyedUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. Everyone is different
Even in places like that.
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #7
48. If 10-20% don't participate, there are a quite a few kids to
Edited on Sun Jan-23-05 02:39 PM by DemBones DemBones
bear the "stigma" of nonparticipation together. Those kids probably don't go to church, either, and in a small community, everyone knows where everyone else goes to church, or if they don't go at all, so not going to Bible study probably doesn't create any additional "stigma" for the non-religious kids.

Without studying this particular community, we don't know how much the kids are stigmatized. In the public schools in Appalachia where I taught, most kids who were religious were Baptists or belonged to a Pentecostal church but they understood about their classmates who were Jehovah's Witnesses not being allowed to attend birthday parties, say the pledge, or go to pep rallies (not an official Witness teaching, I'm told, but custom among local Witnesses -- I guess they also forbade attending sports events.) The other kids did not hassle the JWs. Sometimes a student would even ask if s/he might go sit in the office with a JW kid to keep him/her company while everyone else went to a rally or a birthday party.

And once, when I took a group of students to Athens for state science fair, one of the girls who went was a member of a small sect that taught that women and girls had to wear dresses or skirts, though girls were allowed to wear culottes that looked like skirts. If they went swimming, they still had to wear culottes.

We stayed in a motel with a pool and I was proud that not one of the brash young 7th and 8th graders even acted as if they noticed that "Christy" was swimming in her clothes. They all splashed and whooped and hollered like nothing unusual was happening, including her in the fun. I guarantee you that these kids were not little darlings who never teased and made fun of others. But they knew "Christy's" daddy was the minister at the snakehandling church and they had enough sense to know that they also had to do things that their parent required of them.
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shrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #7
97. Not necessarily
Of course, I grew up in the Midwest, but there were bible groups in my school, Youth For Christ, all that stuff. Only the geeks and apple-polishers belonged to that stuff.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. Not officially. (nt)
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. What do the kids who don't go do in class while it's going on?
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PA Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. They are given coloring and meaningless busy work.
There is no instruction occurring.
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PA Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. And do you honestly believe that those children who do not attend
Edited on Sun Jan-23-05 12:10 PM by PA Democrat
are not ostracized? How would you feel if your children were sitting in a classroom during what should be instructional time and given coloring books to color while some kids received instruction in the teachings of the Koran? Is that a wise use of school time?

Religious instruction should not be done during public school hours. I have no problem if they want to do the exact same thing AFTER regular school hours, but this is eating into instructional time.
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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. People who don't attend church probably are ostracized
What is the gov't supposed to do about it? Local scoolboards determine the hours and policies of schools in a way that is best accomodating to every student. In this case, they recognize the religious beliefs of students and the importance of these off-school classes to their families. They are not mandating or sponsoring the event, merely giving the children an opportunity to attend, as befits a religious institution seeking the cooperation of a secular institution. You could argue that they are respecting Christianitty, but since there are probably no Mosques or Senagogues in Staunton, I doubt there are any classes available otherwise.

As to the students, I'm sure those who don't want to participate are pleased as punch to get out of school early. If the schoolboard decided to have class until later those days, its easy to see who they'd blame, and it wouldn't be the Christians.
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PA Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. Have the classes AFTER school hours
Children should not be losing out on educational instruction because of Bible classes during the school day. Be honest, if there were a majority of kids of the Muslim faith in your child's school, would you have no problem with the school day being shortened to provide instruction in the Koran?

BTW, I think it is much more obvious to the kids who is not attending these classes than it would be to determine which of my neighbors do not attend any of the many churches in my community.
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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. No
"Children should not be losing out on educational instruction because of Bible classes during the school day. Be honest, if there were a majority of kids of the Muslim faith in your child's school, would you have no problem with the school day being shortened to provide instruction in the Koran?"

As long as it was off school grounds, away from the faculty, I would not care, and, more importantly, it would not be illegal.

"BTW, I think it is much more obvious to the kids who is not attending these classes than it would be to determine which of my neighbors do not attend any of the many churches in my community."

In these kind of communities people who don't attend church are often treated differently than others. It's discrimination and it's wrong. Do you think the gov't should ban churches?
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PA Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #28
33. Apples and oranges
I don't care what people do on their OWN time. I do care what my children do during the time they are supposed to be receiving EDUCATIONAL instruction.

Also, I don't think many adults would remain in a community that was so bigoted that they were ostracized for not attending THE church of the majority. These children obviously do not have that choice.

Asking if I favor "banning churches' is a false argument.
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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #33
45. more
"I don't care what people do on their OWN time. I do care what my children do during the time they are supposed to be receiving EDUCATIONAL instruction."

If there was a Gay/Strait Alliance meeting off campus during school hours and the majority of the class asked to be excused, would anyone here be complaining if the school allowed them to leave class?

"Also, I don't think many adults would remain in a community that was so bigoted that they were ostracized for not attending THE church of the majority. These children obviously do not have that choice."

They do. They can stay in the school and do coloring. The school does not pressure or inhibit them from leaving.

"Asking if I favor "banning churches' is a false argument."

You were critizing this school's policy for making those who didn't attend the Bible class feel like outsiders. The same can be said of church. If you want to prohibit one of these events, the same could be done with the other.
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PA Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #45
54. You said:
"If there was a Gay/Strait Alliance meeting off campus during school hours and the majority of the class asked to be excused, would anyone here be complaining if the school allowed them to leave class?"

Yes, I would complain if that educational instruction were cut to accommodate these meetings. Yes, I would object if my child's school lost NCLB funding because kids did less well on tests due to a shortened instructional day.

Guess we'll just have to disagree on this. BTW, if you like religion taught in school, you should consider a private school. I attended one for eight years as a child. There were pros and cons, but one thing I can honestly say, is that the kids with whom I attended Catholic school got into just as much trouble as the kids who attended the public school system.
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fedupwithbush Donating Member (159 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #45
72. Yes, I would.
Posted by Charlie Brown: "If there was a Gay/Strait Alliance meeting off campus during school hours and the majority of the class asked to be excused, would anyone here be complaining if the school allowed them to leave class?"

Yes I would. Public school is for universal educational purposes only in my opinion. I don't like it when athletes get time off from school with no backlash(ie don't have to make up school work).

My husband coaches baseball, soccer and basketball after school. They can't afford to do it anymore which is just dandy with me and him too. It's sponsored by outside groups and never interferes with school.

The criteria IMHO should be if it can't be used by everyone, it shouldn't be a given.

Notice I said can't be. Not won't. Science can be used by everyone. Math, reading, art, music, P.E., history, business skills, technical skills.

This "education off campus" won't be used by everyone because some will be atheist, some non-Christian and other religions.

I'm hesitant these days about even non-elective classes being taught in the atmosphere of hardly no money for essential school supplies, low teacher salaries, and cuts to P.E., the arts and music.

Priorities seem to be skewed way out of line by some (50% at last election).

I want my child to read, write, understand basic science and general math at the least! Most schools are being overwhelmed by outside stuff that shouldn't be a part of school, including religious teaching!



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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #45
136. yes.
If there was a Gay/Strait Alliance meeting off campus during school hours and the majority of the class asked to be excused, would anyone here be complaining if the school allowed them to leave class?

Absolutely, without question. School time is for instruction. Period.

They can stay in the school and do coloring.

And, a few years down the line, their middle schools can get reconstituted under NCLB because they were either coloring (!) or attending religious instruction instead of learning to read.
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kittykitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #15
36. Central PA--my son did not attend "bible release" time during school day
They had Bible Release Classes on Friday afternoons. My son and one other did not attend. The teacher gave them dictionary work, or they could read. They were not ostracized. The classes were held on a school bus in the parking lot. The attendees were given Popsicles, or other treats.

I couldn't believe this was going on. But this is the Bible Belt, Franklin County PA. The first PTA meeting we attended opened with a prayer, and the program was a movie about how Jesus could prevent your child from taking drugs. We walked out.
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #15
50. Atlanta public schools have been working on a plan to allow Muslim

children out of class to pray. Do you oppose that?
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PA Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #50
58. If teaching is suspended while the kids are away
from class, then I oppose it.
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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #58
64. If 85% of the class left
then the faculty would have no choice but to cease teaching, or offer some non-essential elective as an alternative.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #5
29. Doesn't matter. This is an institutional endorsement of Christianity.
Our taxpayer dollars are funding religious education.

It's wrong for a hundred reasons.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #29
81. Yours is the
best response yet. :)
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sunnystarr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #5
60. I must have taken a stupid pill today ... somehow I thought that
churches taught bible studies and had religious education. Sunday school? Bible classes?

I remember 6th grade eons ago when I attended public school at PS122 in Astoria, Queens; it was a time when Wednesdays were religious instruction days. So every Wednesday afternoon at around 1 or 2pm (it was long ago after all), some of the kids left the school for religious instruction at their churches. It was only Catholics. The Protestant churches had their Confirmation instructions on Saturday mornings. The rest of the class had reading,, spelling bees, and dance instruction.

Religious instruction for the Catholics was viewed as part of their responsiblity - and since the rest of us usually had fun we felt sorry for the kids who had to leave. No child was put at risk of ridicule.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #5
78. And what do the kids do who choose not to go
while the others are in bible class?

Somehow I don't think they get extra recess time.

You need to stop and think about the time spent on the bible study and what those kids could be doing instead - like reading, writing and 'rithmetic. You know, those subjects that every other kid in the US is studying while these kids are in bible study.
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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #78
82. If the schools prohibited these kids from going to the Bible classes
Edited on Sun Jan-23-05 04:20 PM by Charlie Brown
they'd be inviting all sorts of lawsuits from the Alliance Defense Fund/Center for Law & Justice, crowd, just like CAIR has filed suites against schools that won't excuse Muslims for prayer. It seems the Bible studies are something of a tradition in this community and the schoolboard is trying to accomodate for its religious traditions.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #82
96. So how does abiding by religious traditions
impact test scores?
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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #96
100. It may or may not
You could say the same things about the other extra-curricular events that eat into class time. I've no idea what the VA or WV laws on subject time are, but unless the parents can prove these classes subtract more time than the other extra-curricular events, I doubt they have a case.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #100
104. What other extra curricular activities
eat into class time? Do they have football practice during the school day?
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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #104
106. as I mentioned in other posts
The JV sports teams all got to leave early Fridays to prepare for games, and so did the the Academic and Debate teams when they did off-campus activities. The Bible clubs deserve the same breaks as the other groups get. I can see that this is bad policy-making, but school policy is school policy.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #106
109. They don't do that here
My dad was a coach and his kids had to be in school all day. They never excused them early for sporting events.
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VirginiaDem Donating Member (574 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #100
123. Since the article is about Virginia
the laws of West Virginia would not apply.
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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #123
124. as you pointed out, another poser mentioned WV
I thought it was best to include both states, to avoid any confusion. My apologies to all rational DU posters from WV.
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VirginiaDem Donating Member (574 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #124
127. Thank you! n/t
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wallybarron Donating Member (165 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #124
162. Thank you
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #5
80. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
kimchi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #5
180. Not forced; merely coerced.
I attended school in VA. Only one person was "allowed" to not participate; and he was Jewish, and this was after his parents made a big stink. There may have been a permission slip that I don't remember, but no teacher ever said we had an option to not participate. Also--this was ON school grounds, taught by a regular teacher. Early 70s. Another year it was moved to a school bus, but still parked on school property.

I doubt it has changed a lot since then. I just had my 20 year reunion and was amazed at how everyone still ASSUMES you think as they do. Best thing I ever did was to leave that damn town.
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AliciaKeyedUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 04:12 AM
Response to Reply #180
188. Sure it's changed
They have a bunch of students who don't participate, so they can't be coercing too well, now can they?
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
8. I'm OK with it, if they'll teach the kids that Jesus was a person of color
and not some Caucasian, blue-eyed fellow, with honey-colored soft flowing hair. :eyes:

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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #8
194. good point.
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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
16. No problem with this
They're giving the same privilleges to Muslim students where I live who want to leave class and pray during the day.

If they're not conducting the classes on school grounds with faculty involvement, I don't see that the school is "sponsoring" the lessons.

For people who are against these "Bible related" meetings, do you think we should outlaw the Bible from schools or ban headscarves?
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PA Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. There is a fundamental difference in the situation
And that is that while these kids are attending Bible class, the other children receive NO educational instruction.

While the Muslim students you describe leave the classroom to pray, the class I am sure continues for the rest of the students.
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rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Ding ding ding! PA Democrat, you're our grand prize winner!
...while these kids are attending Bible class, the other children receive NO educational instruction.

THAT'S why it should be done after school--it wouldn't cut into class time and the non-attendees will not be stigmatized.

:headbang:
rocknation
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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. You're upset b/c they don't continue teaching
after students leave to attend the Bible classes? The school is endorsing this event by ending the school day once the students have left? That's a tough sell, and were I a judge, I would not buy it. The event must constitute "an excessive entanglement of government and religion" in order to be unconstitutional. The schoolboard decides the hours of operation for whatever best accomodates people of the community.

The Christians in this community concocted this event to get around the "Lemon Test," and if it's struck down they'll find some other way to continue the Bible study. Why not just leave it as is? It's only playing to the "liberals hate Christians" myth.
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PA Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #23
30. This is done DURING the school day
Did you miss that important distinction? Classes are suspended in the middle of the school day, thus reducing instructional time.

I have no problem with the kids walking over to that church AFTER school hours. I have stated that, apparently you did not read what I wrote. If that paints me as some kind of Christian-hating liberal, then you are certainly entitled to that opinion.

Sad, that I even have to make this statement to somehow disprove that accusation, but I happen to be a Christian, and my children do receive religious instruction- AFTER school hours.
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Cats Against Frist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #18
74. Perhaps the pro-indoctrination crowd would like to answer one simple
question:

Why does religion need to be taught in school, anyway?
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AliciaKeyedUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #74
75. It isn't being taught in school
So we are not a pro-indoctrination crowd. In fact, this school district is bending over backward to accommodate both the overwhelming religious elements as well as those of different views.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #75
134. horse hockey.
It's religious instruction, during school time, to groups of school children. They can have their church time after or before school. Not during.
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AliciaKeyedUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #134
143. I believe the local school board decides that
This is not involving school personnel, property or funds. That makes it legal.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #143
147. is the school day extended to cover the lost time?
Unless it is, it is a violation of the separation clause. School time is going toward religious instruction. And teachers are supposed to simply stop what they're doing and let the other kids COLOR until the little churchgoers return?

Hell with that. If they're going to do it, instruction *has* to continue while they're gone, and they can make up the work as best they can every night.
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arwalden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #147
149. It Involves School Time And Salaries...
... and paying the instructors to be glorified baby-sitters while the rest attend the school-endorsed bible study. I also imagine that there might be some transportation and other liability issues that comes out of the state's pockets or is covered by state-funded insurance.

All these are separation of church and state issues that the other poster willfully ignores.
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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #74
77. um, read the article
These classes are not taught in schools.
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Cats Against Frist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #77
128. Picky, Picky
OK:

Why does religion (now not a class, mind you, but "religious education," need to take place DURING the school day or near the school day?

and next question:

What is this supposed to accomplish that Sunday school and home religious education cannot -- as in, disrupting the school day AT ALL for religion education?

Somebody comes up with a rational answer for this one, and I'll buy you a case of sparkling wine and crackers.
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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #128
148. It doesn't "need" to be taught
during the school day, or at all. People in the community believe it's an important tradition and have asked the local schoolboard to allow children to attend. That's their right as citizens, and the schoolboard saw fit to excuse the children. As no one is forced or pressured by the school to attend, there's no establishment of religion, and it's within the law.

"What is this supposed to accomplish that Sunday school and home religious education cannot -- as in, disrupting the school day AT ALL for religion education?"

As far as the participants in the community are concerned, its continuing a religious tradition away from public school which they see as imporant. The gov't cannot prohibit the free exercise of religion, and not deny it of students unless it severely hinders education. I don't see that happening here.

Do you think the gov't should prohibit students from praying/reading the Bible at all? Or ban headscarves? None of these serves an education purpose either.


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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #148
168. Reading the bible, praying and wearing headscarves
don't interfere with instruction.

Allowing kids to leave the school to attend a bible study class most definitely DOES interfere with instruction.
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arwalden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #74
150. It's The Tyranny Of The Christian Majority...
... that intimidates the runs roughshod over the non-Christian or non-religious minority and even over those religious Christians who believe in and support keeping the church and state separate.

The predominant attitude of one or two in this thread seems to be the same as with other church and state issues that crop up on other threads throughout DU.

When it's deals with nativity scenes, their answer is "if it bothers you don't look at it". :eyes:

When it deals with the words "under god" being included in the pledge, their response is "if it bothers you, then don't say it". :eyes:

When it comes to praying in class, their response is "if it bothers you, then don't pray". :eyes:

When it comes to Bible Study field trips, their response is "if it bothers you, then don't go to the class". :eyes:

I often wonder why those who come here to spout out the RW viewpoint on this issue (and others) are permitted to stay.
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maddezmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #150
152. I am one of those Christians that you speak of that
support keeping the church and state separate.
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arwalden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #152
159. There! You See?
Thank you!! It's not impossible or unreasonable for religious people to be able to recognize the importance of and to respect that church and state must remain separate.

The ones on this thread (and other threads), who naively see nothing wrong with it, would be certainly be singing another tune if the public school were in a predominantly Muslim community and *their* little Christian boy 'Johnny' was being singled-out as being different, and having stay behind, and not socialize... and color or finger-paint.

When the state-endorsed activity is Christian, the RW Christians on DU come out of their hidey-holes in support of it.

Christians such as yourself have an OBLIGATION to speak out against those who support a blending and blurring of the line between state and Christian activities. In my estimation, far too many "liberal" Christians choose to remain silent (so as not to offend their Christian brothers and sisters?). Such silence is, for all intents, a stamp of approval and an endorsement of these abuses.

I hope more folks follow your example and identify themselves as Christians and SPEAK OUT against things like this. Frequently, it seems that the only ones who speak out are the non-religious, non-Christian, non-believers... and as such our opinions are often INSTANTLY disregarded, or they carry less weight. Unfair but true.
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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #159
161. Had you bothered to read the posts
Edited on Sun Jan-23-05 08:23 PM by Charlie Brown
you would have noticed that those of us defending the school had cited examples where Muslim students in Atlanta and elsewhere had been excused to attend a Mosque. I myself praised this extremely tolerant policy toward Muslims.

Yeah, we're a bunch of religious bigots who are only concerned with churches and Christians.
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arwalden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #161
163. Oh Brother! --- Uh... Did I Say YOU?
If I live to be one hundred years old, I'll never understand why some people choose to "own" critical words that aren't intended for them in the first place.

If they don't apply to you, then they don't apply. It's as simple as that. If I didn't say YOU, then why do you feel that I meant YOU?

I see the "attack-on-one-is-an-attack-on-all" philosophy still exists among many here who choose to take offense at things that reasonable people wouldn't take offense at.

>> "Had you bothered to read the posts" <<

Heh heh heh! :eyes:

>> I myself praised this extremely tolerant policy toward Muslims. <<

And that would be wrong too. Whoo-hoo! You're praising something that's WRONG! What a "tolerant" and "enlightened" viewpoint... but still WRONG!

>> Yeah, we're a bunch of religious bigots who are only concerned with churches and Christians. <<

That's not too far from the truth. Not 'all'... but many.

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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #163
164. well, well, well.
I myself praised this extremely tolerant policy toward Muslims. <<

And that would be wrong too. Whoo-hoo! You're praising something that's WRONG!"

So you want to keep the Muslim kids from attending prayer on their holy day? Guess you and the Christians you detest so much have something in common.

"What a "tolerant" and "enlightened" viewpoint... but still WRONG!"

Really? Says who? Certainly not the Supreme Court.

"That's not too far from the truth. Not 'all'... but many."

I'm not a Christian. Why would you think that?

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arwalden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #164
165. Heh heh heh...
Edited on Sun Jan-23-05 09:47 PM by arwalden
>> Guess you and the Christians you detest so much have something in common. <<

Sounds like you're projecting someone else's emotion onto me. :eyes:

>> Certainly not the Supreme Court. <<

There are many things that the USSC is wrong about. "Legal" and "right" are two different things. I said "wrong"... I didn't say "illegal".

>> I'm not a Christian. Why would you think that? <<

Huh? :shrug: Did I say that YOU were? Did I say that I even *suspected* you were? I indicated agreement with your sarcasm because it was not as far from the truth as you would have me believe. I also clarified by specifying "many" not "all".

Of course you're free to intentionally misinterpret and twist my words in whatever way you please. Continue to search for hidden meanings and imagined insults that simply aren't there. There's nothing I can do to stop you.

You're welcome to seek as much attention as you desire with your vanity posts of faux indignation. The time you waste is your own, not mine.
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #16
26. the school day is for school..........not shoving religion into kids...
you said

"They're giving the same privilleges to Muslim students where I live who want to leave class and pray during the day."

and you said

"If they're not conducting the classes on school grounds with faculty involvement, I don't see that the school is "sponsoring" the lessons."

seems to me there is some difference in allowing a child to leave a room for a few moments for a personal prayer and packing up most of an entire school population DURING SCHOOL TIME to LEAVE the campus for direct religious instruction. If these students are hearded off campus during school time, the school IS SPONSORING the lessons, because everything the students do during school time is sponsored by the school.

you said

"For people who are against these "Bible related" meetings, do you think we should outlaw the Bible from schools or ban headscarves?'

boy that is quite a leap into faulty logic. disagreeing with schools providing direct religious instruction on school time is quite a bit removed from outlawing a book. When the state stops school instruction to substitute direct religious instruction in any religion, the state is endorsing and supporting that religion.

Maybe if the parents did a better job of promoting their religion at home, at church, in the media, they would not have to use school time to reinforce their messages. It is kinda sad IMO that 90% of the US population does such a poor job promoting its religion at home that they feel they have to promote it at school.

Msongs
www.msongs.com
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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #26
42. It's a little more than that
"seems to me there is some difference in allowing a child to leave a room for a few moments for a personal prayer and packing up most of an entire school population DURING SCHOOL TIME to LEAVE the campus for direct religious instruction."

The Muslim students are missing 45 minutes of class every Friday, and they leave school to go to the local Mosque. The school district accomodates them b/c of the importance of their religious beliefs, and I respect that. These students are doing the same thing. How is this any different?

"If these students are hearded off campus during school time, the school IS SPONSORING the lessons, because everything the students do during school time is sponsored by the school."

Unless I read the story wrong, no one is "herded off campus." The students leave voluntarilly, or stay and do coloring/busy work. The school has nothing to do with who stays and leaves. They are not pressuring anyone to leave, just allowing those who wish to do so.

"boy that is quite a leap into faulty logic. disagreeing with schools providing direct religious instruction on school time is quite a bit removed from outlawing a book. When the state stops school instruction to substitute direct religious instruction in any religion, the state is endorsing and supporting that religion."

"The state" is not substituting direct religious instruction. A church/churches in the community are doint that. The state is simply ceasing instruction while the students go elsewhere, which is not endorsing or inhibiting anything. Schoolboards can manage their classtimes and exempt students any way they see fit to respect religious beliefs. And yes, disagreeing with this policy is only two steps away from prohibitng students from bringing Bibles to school.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
20. So actual education is put on hold
Edited on Sun Jan-23-05 12:33 PM by Solly Mack
for Bible study.

"Children who do not attend stay in their classroom to do artwork* or remedial studies, he said.

"Generally, new work is not started, because the majority would fall behind," Lunsford said."

artwork defined as coloring or drawing (I guess this is how they have an "art program")<~~sarcasm...just in case

"The children left behind in the classroom have nothing meaningful to do," said Heather Ward, who moved to the area from New York City and has decided not to enroll her young son and daughter when they start attending school. "It's busywork. *Coloring or drawing."


Love this one:

"We happen to be Christians, but we do not want her to be a part of excluding other children," she said. "They get worksheets to do. She tolerates them, but they're not advancing her education"

Good thing it's a "school"

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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. If Kids Could Choose Between Taking An Actual Elective Or Religion
class, it'd be great.

Let kids choose between art, music or religion.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #22
24.  I agree....But they aren't getting a choice
it's bible school or busy work

My high school had a Christian Ed. building off campus, supported by area churches, and totally elective. But there's a big difference in sitting and doing nothing, and having a wide range of electives to choose from...

comparative religion is a good class to offer...if a 6 year old can get jesus...they can get other religions as well.
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #20
55. Allowing children time to color freely is a great art program and very

meaningful to children. Kids who don't like to color or draw have been taught that art isn't important and that they must be working on something important ALL the time. I pity such kids. I hate the whole "students must be on task at all times" idea. NOBODY can concentrate all day long and daydreaming is healthy. Leave the kids alone! Let them have recess! Let them color! Don't punish them for daydreaming!

Much of the "art instruction" given in public schools actually stifles children's creativity. Young children need to do a lot of drawing, without anyone teaching them how to draw. Lessons are for later.

My husband is an art professor, with one of his degrees in art education, and very well-versed in art education theory, which her has also taught.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. It's not the same as an instructional class
any kid can sit and draw...which they do enjoy...but it can get boring when that's all you get to do.

I used to teach Headstart... and children do grow tired of simply drawing and coloring after a while. They want something that challenges them. That stimulates them. An actual art instructor at these times would be a huge plus. The instructor could show them the magical world of art.

I never suggested they must be "on task" always. I am saying they need to offer the other students something better.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #55
84. You are obviously not a school administrator
We are strictly forbidden from having kids color and do do busy work like worksheets where I teach. It's a huge no-no. My principal often says she never knew a kid who graduated from high school not knowing how to color, so there is no need to 'teach' that skill.

Too bad we don't have more adminstrators with backgrounds in art, like your husband. Maybe then the kids could color once in awhile.
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klyon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
32. this just another attempt to go around the law
Who pays the insurance on the children when they leave the school for the church or where ever bible class is held?

If they are they holding hands when they leave the school is that promoting homosexuality? ala Sponge Bob. (Just to clarify)I see children on field trips holding hands for safety and control reasons. When on field trips the children are still covered by insurance, right?

Laws don't seem to matter to some people.

KL
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AliciaKeyedUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. This is the same as going to any extracurricular activity
It is voluntary.

It is designed to work within the law and keep church out of the school.
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klyon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. please
Bible school is for churches. With the many denominations and sects (cults) shouldn't religious people be worried they will get the wrong christian teaching. Dancing, hair cutting, even the 10 commandments vary for group to group. Why must you take up every bodies time with this nonsense. Follow the letter of the law please.

Most extracurricular activities take place on school grounds except for field trips and the like. What about insurance am I paying the insurance bill for this activity as I do for all other extracurricular activities. If it is during school hours I do not know how you can call that extracurricular.

KL
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AliciaKeyedUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #39
68. This is in a church
Edited on Sun Jan-23-05 04:08 PM by AliciaKeyedUp
I note you said MOST extracurricular activities take place on school grounds. This one doesn't. Nor is it mandatory.
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fedupwithbush Donating Member (159 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #35
40. I'm amazed at your posts.
I live in the "bible belt" myself. And if ever kids were let out during school hours to attend church, I can assure you plenty of us would raise "hell" about it.

We can barely afford to keep the classes small and the computers running. The admin has strict rules on what constitutes legitimate time away from school. They go to Saturday school if they are tardy five times! They freak when we have a snow day because they can't figure out how to make it up. The stupid tests required take up a lot of time too. Art, music and PE are already on a 2 times a week basis. The idea that any public school would allow this floors me. If my child misses school because of an outside appointment, they have to make up their work. The class doesn't stop just because they are gone.

Would you be so gung-ho if it were open to non-Christian religions too? Somehow I just don't think so. But I'd be upset either way. Religion is something that should be taught in the home by the family. Where do these parents get off using other students state and federally funded education time to cart their kids to church! The whole deal today that a lot of teachers get sick of is the encroachment every day by parents for them to bear the brunt of raising their kids. Not just educating them for the future, but teaching them to wipe their butts, manners, how to dress, how to speak, and on and on and on. Not to mention the free babysitting they get. (That's another reason my school district freaks at snow days. A parent or two MIGHT be inconvenienced and actually have to find a babysitter or watch their child.)

But seriously, your attitude is down right anathema to me. I and my husband decide our children's religion. I don't expect or want the school involved in that in any way! And I don't want my children preached to or pushed to attend a church by anyone. And I d**n well don't want my schools teachers to sit and twiddle their thumbs on my dime while your child waltzes off to church during the school day.

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AliciaKeyedUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #40
69. Open it to any who want to go
As long as the school isn't sponsoring it.

If the local Buddhist gathering wanted to teach, they could do so at the same time and those children could go there.

Religion certainly can be taught in church. The locals here have decided they want to honor their own beliefs AND be legal at the same time.

Please do decide your child's religion. He or she does not have to attend this and it's obvious that many are not.

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fedupwithbush Donating Member (159 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #69
113. I don't mean to be cruel, but are you really that dense?
Teachers and students sitting in school, on state and federal money time, twiddling their thumbs and wasting precious resources that the state and federal are whittling away at, to let some children go off and have bible school when it COULD be done after hours and on weekends. GIVE ME A BREAK!!!! Or let me shout it really loud. Keep your church out of my school during paid hours! If you want to send them to bible school, you do it. But not at my children's expense! I'd say the same thing about any non-religious, non-educational activity. If you want to have a cheer leading meeting, fine. But have it after school. If you want to have a football practice, fine. But have it after school. Those things and your religious beliefs are not universal and aren't essential to my child's upbringing. You pay for them. I don't have to. Get it?

And last but really not least, I'm ashamed to even continue the conversation with you. Tunnel vision is really hard to fight. On an aside to that, that's the way I feel about a lot of things Bush and Co. do. You and they have something in common. Beat it to death and tell the rest of us but, but, but. Don't cram it down my throat and expect me to take it. Give me one good reason why my tax dollars and others of different religions and no religion should fund a teacher sitting in a class not teaching, with my child sitting there, while yours goes off to a religious teaching? Maybe we should bill you?
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AliciaKeyedUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #113
138. Some of the students?
Sure seems like most of them are doing this.

And the teachers who are awaiting the return of these students are under control of a local school board that is entirely happy with the situation.

This church IS out of the school. The locals here have gone to great lengths to make it so and still many here are not satisfied.

This is why local school boards are indeed local. They make the decisions that the locals wish and they wish to allow children to take time off for this.

Take a look around this time. It's not tunnel vision. For once around here, I have a fair number of people on my side who agree this is OK. Read not just my posts, but theirs too.

No one is cramming anything down your throat. If you child does not wish to participate, give him or her a book to read.

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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #138
171. Just one, you and Charlie Brown
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #35
85. You continue to ignore the fact
that extra curriculur means after school, not during the school day.
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AliciaKeyedUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #85
89. No, it means not a class
And not a grade.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #89
95. Not where I teach
I have been in the education business for 25 years. My father was also a teacher and a high school coach for 40 years. Extra curriculur means outrside of the curriculum and outside of the school day. Every district in my state uses that definition.
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AliciaKeyedUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #95
110. This is outside the class and, since it's approved, outside the school day
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VirginiaDem Donating Member (574 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #110
125. So as long as its removed from the space and time
continuum, it may as well be temporal instruction ;-)
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #110
135. except that classes are interrupted for it
so it is not, in fact, outside the school day.
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AliciaKeyedUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #135
139. Classes are interrupted for lunch
and assemblies and other activities as well.

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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #139
142. yes, because food is sort of mandatory.
I have my own issues with assemblies, but at least they only happen rarely or periodically.
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arwalden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
37. The Number Of People Here Who Support And Spout The RW Line...
Edited on Sun Jan-23-05 01:36 PM by arwalden
is simply stunning! It makes me want to vomit!
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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #37
46. Okay, I'll bite
How is what is going on here illegal?

The school is permitting students who wish to attend the Bible classes go, while providing alternative activities for those who don't want to do it.

The "Lemon Test" says that in order to be unconstitutional, the school must excessively entangle itself in religion, or make a reasonable bystander feel like an outsider.

The churches might be making people feel like outsiders, but as private organizations that is their right.

All the school are doing is letting the students leave and ceasing school time while they're gone (probably 'cause most of them have left).
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. But they shouldn't cease school time
it harms the other students

and busy work such as coloring and drawing ...even worksheets...aren't a good enough substitute for actual class time. Those things aren't actual alternatives, it's what any parent or babysitter does to give kids busywork and keep them out of their hair. They might as well place them in front of the TV for all the merit it holds.


It's not a case of school continues while an elective is being held...it's a case of this single "elective" shutting down the school for portions of the week.

Yes, away from school premises has been determined legal..but they still need to provide educational instruction to the other students. Not some "busywork" with no educational purpose.



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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. with 85% of the class gone?
It would be impossible to maintain a steady curriculum for all the students in this situation. The students who didn't go would have an unfair advantage, and the parents would immediately sue the schoolboard, claiming they were pressuring the students to stay away from church. This would be the kind of thing the Alliance Defense Fund and the Am. Center for Law and Justice would snatch up instantly.

I'm no fan of these kind of "Bible classes," but constitutionally, as long as the schools do not pressure students to attend, they're within the law.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. Then they need to change their habits
Edited on Sun Jan-23-05 02:46 PM by Solly Mack
because PUBLIC, aided by federal dollars, school is for education first and foremost.

And let the 85% sue the school board because students are getting educated at school. Let them sue for religious discrimination...I dare them.

but FYI, I never said they had to continue to the normal curriculum during this time...they could offer actual art classes by actual art instructors to those kids who don't attend the prayer revival. They could offer actual music class by an actual music instructor at this time. There are a host of things they could offer...and don't. They just leave the other kids hanging.

and that's not right.
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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. Sure, they could do that
Edited on Sun Jan-23-05 02:55 PM by Charlie Brown
but it's very hard to keep 2nd/3rd graders interested in anything, let alone subjects they would probably find boring like music/art. I imagine the teachers just want something that will keep them occupied until the other students return, which the coloring accomplishes (these are young children, after all). Under these circumstances, I can't really fault the school for refraining from an alternative course of study.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #53
56. Well, I can fault them. I taught Headstart
and 2nd and 3rd graders have a much better time staying focused than a 5 year old does. We are talking 7, 8, and 9 years olds.

Beisdes, if they can pay attention long enough to sing in bible class (which the article says they do), they can pay attention long enough to participate in music class.



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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #53
91. 2nd and 3rd graders do not find music and art boring
I teach elem school. You are wrong. They love those classes.
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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #91
92. If you want to run for the Staunton, VA school board
so the kids who stay in class can learn art/music, by all means, run, or petition the Board to change its policies. Until then, coloring is as good as anything the faculty could supply to keep the scant number of children who do not leave occupied.

Criticizing this policy because the faculty do not teach the refraining students the way you want them to is a flimsy argument.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #92
102. No it is not
Are you not the least bit familiar with NCLB? We have entered the age of accountability in education. We are not allowed to do anything that does not impact student achievement. We are cutting back on music and art. Field trips will soon be a distant memory. Cutting a chunk of time out of the school day for bible study is very bad policy. And as I pointed out in another thread, in my state, it would violate state regs.

And I ask again, what are the test scores in this state? How many schools have not made adequate yearly progress?
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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #102
105. legally, it is
If you can find a VA/WV statute that demands a minimum of time for particular subjects, please present it. If not, your argument is not pertinent.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #105
108. Are you an attorney or a teacher?
If not, you don't have much authority to comment on this subject.
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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #108
112. I am taking education courses
Edited on Sun Jan-23-05 05:20 PM by Charlie Brown
No, I'm not an attorney, but I've done some work with a lot of legal contracts. You said your state had laws that demanded subjects be given a minimum of time each week. I asked if you knew of any laws in VA or WV that do the same thing.

I don't think I have to be an attorney to ask a commom sense question like that.

Perhaps you don't know of any laws in VA/WV, which would beg the quetstion of why you brought up the subject.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #112
115. I don't teach in VA
so I don't know. But I have been told that the time frame mandates we have are fairly common in many other states.

Sign up for an education law course. It was one of the most valuable courses I have ever taken.
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Torque67 Donating Member (32 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #115
204. So,
You cite that a law exists, when questioned on it, you say there might not be one, then suggest that the other person take an education law class?

Howzat work?

I think the whole thing of these kids leaving class to go to bible study ruffles my feathers, but then, I'm a readin, ritin, rithmatic believer. Music and art can be done after school too.
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #47
59. It seems to me that you want the kids who stay at school to be

PUNISHED for not going to Bible study!

Coloring is good for kids -- that's what art educators will tell you, that it helps them develop artistically, especially coloring on plain paper. (Coloring books often discourage kids, convincing them that they can't draw, since their drawings are not like those of the adults who do the drawings for coloring books. It's best to limit use of coloring books.)

I'd support this if these were my kids being left in the classroom to color. Instruction is given the rest of the day. And the majority of parents and children are allowed to have the Bible study they want, outside school property. If it's okay for Muslims to miss 45 minutes of school to pray at a mosque, then this is okay, too.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. OH BULLSHIT. I never once said anything of the sort
Nor implied it.

What's wrong with kids taking a music class? Are you against music? Are you against children singing? Of course you're not but it's not different from what you accused me of...Or do you just support children singing in bible class?

Same applied to art classes, etc.

See how the gross assumptions and mischaracterization of a person's words work?



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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #46
87. One way it could be illegal
In my state, the state dept of ed mandates that we spend x amount of minutes per week teaching each subject area. By the time we meet this mandate, there is no time left for anything else. If there is a similar reg in WV, these schools are obviously taking time away from other subject areas to allow these kids to go to bible study.
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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #87
94. That's a good point
and if that's the parents case, perhaps they have a point.

The overwhelming consensus on this thread, however, is that the schools are violating the 1st amendment by excusing children who wish to participate in the classes.

That argument simply doesn't hold up.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #94
99. Well I am not a constitutional attorney
but I would side with the majority on this thread. I can't even imagine this practice being tolerated where I teach.

And they tell me I live and work in the bible belt.
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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #99
103. Just because you or others are not happy with something
does not make it unlawful.

How is the school sponsoring this event? What are they supposed to do to prevent it? How is this any different than denying Muslims the opportunity to attend Mosque, or prohibiting headscarves/Bibles, etc?

You could argue that the churches are making people feel like pressured, but the CHURCHES are the ones doing that, not the school(s).
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #103
107. It's not about being happy or unhappy with this
It's about schools being held accountable for student achievement. And no way can you link bible study to achievement.

You need to study some education law. ANY activity the kids engage in during the school day or on school property is considered 'school sponsored'. Legally, the school is responsible for the students from the moment they leave home in the morning until the moment they arrive back home at the end of the day. Any activity during that time frame is 'school sponsored'.
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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #107
111. These classes ARE NOT ON school property
They're voluntary for children who want to participate. The only thing the school sponsors are the coloring activities. If a kid got injured at the church, it would be the church that got sued, not the school, and I'm certain that would stand up in court.

"ANY activity the kids engage in during the school day or on school property is considered 'school sponsored'. Legally, the school is responsible for the students from the moment they leave home in the morning until the moment they arrive back home at the end of the day."

So if a high school student gets permission to leave school and decides to go boating, the school is responsible for him while he's on the boat?

Gimme a break.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #111
114. No you are wrong
If a kid gets hurt while on a school sponsored activity, BOTH the school and the place where the kid got hurt (in this situation, the church) would be held responsible. Ask any attorney. It's really a no-brainer.

If the high school kid is not on a school sponsored boating trip, no, the school is not liable. And there isn't a school I know of that would ever 'give permission' to a kid to leave school and go boating.

About 20 years ago, a group of kids from a high school in St. Louis were on a field trip at a state lake and drowned. The kids had deliberately walked away from the group but the school was held liable as well as the state, since they died on state property. The teachers who were chaperoning the trip were also held liable AND they lost their jobs.

In my district, a kid was run over by a bus after he got off. He was chasing it and waving to his friends still on the bus. The bus turned a corner and the kid slid under the wheels. The bus company was sued, the school district was sued. The parents were awarded several million dollars. The bus driver was fired and so was the school principal.

So yes, we are held liable all the time for anything that happens to a kid during a school sponsored activity.
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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #114
117. You'd have to prove that this is a "school sponsored activity"
Edited on Sun Jan-23-05 05:43 PM by Charlie Brown
and the board would fight you all the way to the SC (whether it was a "no-brainer" or not).

I haven't heard your response to the oft-mentioned Muslim students in Atlanta, yet (excusing them for Mosque). Is what that school system is doing unlawful?
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #117
129. How many times do we have to tell you
that ANY activity during the school day or on school property is considered school sponsored. This is why I recommended you study education law. You will learn of literally thousands of examples of case law that prove this point. Your kid going boating story does not fit here because he is absent from school, therefore, under his parent's supervision, not the school's. However, if he showed up at school and ditched to go boating, then you bet the school would be responsible for his well being.

As for the Muslim kids in Atlanta, if the school is transporting them back and forth to the mosque, then yes, the school would be responsible if they were hurt. I would imagine that allowing them to leave and go to the mosque is legal or they wouldn't be doing it. I assume this is a fairly new practice, unlike the 65 year tradition of bible study in VA. Schools are so conscious of legalities these days that I would assume this school district checked into the legalities before they approved allowing the kids to go to the mosque. But as I said, I am ASSUMING and I could be wrong.

I do know of schools allowing Muslim kids to be excused from class to pray but I have not heard of any who actually allow the kids to leave school property to do so. There is a school in my area doing this and the kids go to a location in the school for the prayers and then return to class. My opinion on this is that if their parents are so determined to allow the prayers to interrupt their school day, then perhaps they should enroll their children in one of the area Islamic schools. Same thing in VA. Surely there are Christian schools in that state for the children who want bible study to be a part of their school day,.
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kimchi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #111
181. Then it has to be EQUAL!
I say let ALL the kids leave for 45 minutes every Friday. The Christians can take the Bible Study class, the Muslims go to the mosque, the Wiccans can learn new spells, the Snake handlers can handle snakes, and the atheists can discuss philosophy. And if the school transports the kids to Bible Study then they can also transport the others.

Voluntary? Ya think? Try this experiment: let everyone leave 45 minutes early and then count the number of children who actually attend the Bible class. I guarantee it would drop considerably; therefore proving that it is not truly voluntary.

It doesn't need to be in the middle of the day, it doesn't need to disrupt class. This way it would be voluntary and equal. As it is, the system is neither voluntary nor equal.

I'm sorry you can't see that.
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fedupwithbush Donating Member (159 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #46
118. Hey Charlie?
Who is paying for the teachers, staff, and administrators while those children are gone? Everyone. Go do it on your own time and make the legal argument to a court that you have the right to make these people sit idle while your child goes to bible school. If it wins, I'll home school. And I don't consider myself anywhere near qualified to do that. I volunteer at my kids school. I can't place a value on the teachers. I couldn't teach. I'd explode at all the extra crap the parents and administration expect me to do. (I work for my school system now. Obviously not as a teacher. And even that is driving me crazy!) But obviously you think it's okay they sit and do nothing and get paid for it. You must be a politician(joking, but not funny).
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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #118
121. fair enough
"Who is paying for the teachers, staff, and administrators while those children are gone? Everyone."

Yes, including the Christians who are asking the school to excuse their kids to keep this tradiiton going and including the Muslims who want time off to go to Mosque (in Atlanta). If you have a religius belief you want the school to respect, you have the right to ask them.

"Go do it on your own time and make the legal argument to a court that you have the right to make these people sit idle while your child goes to bible school."

I don't write the laws, and I don't agree with them all. But to aviod the inevitable lawsuits, the school is wise to excuse the kids from class, just like the schools in Atlanta are wise to excuse the Muslims.

"But obviously you think it's okay they sit and do nothing and get paid for it. You must be a politician(joking, but not funny)."

I don't think it's okay, these kind of people bug the hell out of me, but it's not UNLAWFUL.
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fedupwithbush Donating Member (159 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #121
132. I think it is.
That's fundie logic you are applying. If it's good for me, it must be good for everyone. Not true. Not even close. And it is unlawful. Schools, public that is, are supposed to be for all. Not a few, not 80% even. If it disrupts school and causes my teachers to sit idle, it's bull. Teachers participate in all school events. We have field day. All classes, all teachers. I don't begrudge them or even oppose them on it. Also teachers are expected to spend their time, off the clock to participate in some activities. Go peddal your religion to someone who cares. I don't. I believe in a higher power. I have 7 churches within 7 blocks and I attend not one. Am I less? No. Are my children expected to receive less at school because I don't attend a church locally? No. Do I expect that church to take up lesson time when my children are in school? NO!

If it is elective and is something that does not interfere with my children's education, you can have it. Otherwise, I'm sending you a bill for it, if it is during school hours.
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bleedingheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #37
182. I have to agree...it is stunning
School is for Reading, Writing, Math, History....not Bible study.

I suspect that as more people from the outside have moved into these communities it has shocked them enough to finally say something putting an end to this practice.

If tbey want bible study...go to church.
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diamond14 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
65. the real problem is that Virginia schools are FAILING schools...


that half-hour gawwddd session, probably does not include the time to walk over to the church/trailer back and forth.....soooo, total time lost is a complete HOUR of class time (15 minutes to shuffle over to and into trailer/church each way)...


with failing schools all over Virginia, low pay for teachers, and minimal investments in school equipment....the ONE hour time would be much better spent on EDUCATION (math, spelling, writing, etc.)....


Catholics run their schools as CATHOLIC schools....what fundies are doing is USING THE PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM as their propaganda.....THAT IS WRONG.....and those who say the 'non-believers' should go to private schools have got the whole public school concept backwards...those who want religion in schools should be like the Catholics: build their own religious schools, charge tuition, and then their 'fundies' will come and PAY TUITION for their religious beliefs.....if these fundies want their kids to do AFTER SCHOOL gawwwddd training, then they should PAY or CAR-POOL to get those kids to their AFTER SCHOOL activities and home again....
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
86. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
shrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #86
98. sigh ...
if Christians come to DU, they're probably not fundies.
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arwalden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #98
153. Au Contraire...
Many trolls and disruptors masquerade as "well-meaning Christians"... but eventually out themselves. Many of them fly under the radar of rules enforcement while spouting RW tripe.

Yet, when one takes into account all of their statements in hundreds of threads, throughout dozens of forums... it's very easy for most rational people to determine what their true intent is.
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Cobalt Violet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
93. Stories like this make me so glad I live in the Northeast.
Even if that means big blizzards.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
122. Here's a mind-boggling idea !!!
When the kids are at PUBLIC SCHOOL, how's about teaching them reading, math, science, art, music, grammar, spelling, etc. and let them "tend to their Godly needs" in their homes and places of religious worship.. Problem solved.

If the various chucrches want to pay for and sponsor religious classes for their young congregants, they have my "blessing"...
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Cats Against Frist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #122
130. So elegant, so simple and yet so difficult to understand
:hi: :shrug: :yourock:
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hickman1937 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #122
131. Its called religion on the cheap.
Parents don't have to invest(waste) any time or energy on religious instruction for their kids because they've conned the so called public schools into diong it at taxpayer expense. I'd really like to know what the teachers are doing while the non participating students are coloring. Instruction should be continued. If the other 85% fall behind them, too bad. That was the choice their parents made when they chose to interrupt these kids education. Life is choices.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #131
140. now, I could almost go for that.
Instruction should be continued. If the other 85% fall behind them, too bad. That was the choice their parents made when they chose to interrupt these kids education. Life is choices.

The only problem is that, with only 15% of your class present, it becomes difficult or impossible to conduct certain kinds of lessons. There's a big emphasis these days, at least in Atlanta, on cooperative groups working on problems. 15% of 30 kids would be four - enough for a group, but they'd have to work together all the time. They could call themselves the "atheist group".

But yes - if they're going to do this crap, instruction needs to continue at the school and the kids who go to church can make up the work every night. God help them when new stuff gets introduced while they're gone.
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hickman1937 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 04:05 AM
Response to Reply #140
187. I don't understand. Why are the kids
who don't participate called "the atheists"? Maybe they should be called students. And the other kids could be called part time students.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 06:19 AM
Response to Reply #187
189. I wasn't being entirely serious about the name
but you know that's what they'd be called by their classmates. I like your idea of calling the ones who leave "part time students". :)
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PA Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #122
137. Sounds good to me
My kids are in school 185 days this year, and our elementary school day is about 6 1/2 hours long. By my calculations that leaves more than 3,500 waking hours per year (assuming kids are sleeping 11 hours per night)in which parents can provide religious education for their kids.

And if that's not enough, then they can always send their kids to a private religious school.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #122
141. Mind-boggling indeed.
Use the public buildings, resources, and time for public education, leaving every family, and student, free to teach their own spiritual path of choice, or not. On their private time, in their private homes, churches, temples, etc..

Of course, every single individual is free to practice the teachings of their faith on school grounds, as long as they do so privately; don't expect public time or resources to be spent on your private choices, and don't intrude on other's private choices with yours.

Teach/learn your path on your own time; live it all the time.

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FlemingsGhost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
144. If I am Rastafarian, can I smoke "lamb's bread" (pot) at this class?
Just asking. "Religious freedom," you know ...
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #144
145. I'd like to see this extended
into the southwest, so that Native American kids can be officially excused from school to take peyote ceremonially. :D
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PA Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #144
146. Of course, and people of the Santeria religion
may be excused from class to go sacrifice a goat.

This could get interesting.
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VirginiaDem Donating Member (574 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #144
154. As an atheist, I demand
a taxpayer-funded school trip for my kid (and me as chaparone, naturally) to the Galapagos Islands!
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #154
155. hah!
A little science excursion? :D
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VirginiaDem Donating Member (574 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #155
158. Now all we need is the Supreme Court to endorse it!
Anybody got Scalia on speed dial?
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VirginiaDem Donating Member (574 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #154
156. It would be outside of school, not during school hours
so it would be legit. Of course, the guides in the Galapagos would be espousing anti-fundy beliefs, so fundy children can all stay home. To compensate, they'll each be given a Jesus coloring book and crayons. Oh yeah, and they won't have to roast in the eternal fires of damnation. But that comes later...it's really the ultimate reward...the kind the rest of us can only dream about...
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98geoduck Donating Member (590 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #154
173. Nice!!! It works for my Faith!
Shall we call it Mecca to the Temple of Evolution?
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progressivebydesign Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 10:16 PM
Response to Original message
167. Geez WHAT is with those RED STATES today?
Texas and the anti-Gay billboards, the Missouri woman gives her kid crack to calm him down, and now this? Glad I live in a Blue state. Yikes!
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MountainLaurel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
169. View from a former Staunton resident
A good friend of mine grew up in this town, and had this to say about the quaint little custom:

I was one of the first kids to refuse to attend bible class at Riverheads Elementary school. I had to bring a note from Mom - they didn't have permission slips then - everyone just went, and my not attending was really weird. I spent the time in the library, reading or working on homework. I enjoyed the time to myself.

Yes, this is still an issue people fight for. Scary, huh?

The bible trailers are usually located just off of school property. It's an interesting debate, and I'm glad to see it is phasing out.

I just told about it and he's gobsmacked - he didn't know this was happening either!

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arwalden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 06:47 AM
Response to Reply #169
174. Ahh... Clever...
>> The bible trailers are usually located just off of school property. <<

It looks more and more as though these folks are crafting their words and actions so that they APPEAR to fall inside the law... and so that it APPEARS that the Christianity classes are not actually endorsed by the school.

Of course, NEITHER IS TRUE. In fact we can easily see that the school is INDEED endorsing the Christian indoctrination classes and are allowing field-trips to these off-campus locations as a way of attempting to hide their endorsement behind an apparent "technicality".

Thanks for sharing that note from your friend, MountainLaurel.

-- Allen
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VirginiaDem Donating Member (574 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 07:11 AM
Response to Reply #174
175. I attended one of these 30 years ago...
in central Virginia (which is culturally southern). I was only nine so I'm going by memory here but...the trailer was off school grounds in that it was outside of the building lodged on a median or something not fifty feet from the school. At first I didn't go (along with a few other kids). Presumably my parents had pulled me out since this was well after the time when my parents let my sister and me decide whether or not we wanted to go to church.

I told my parents I wanted to go to the optional bible class in a trailer, so they tossed me into the mix. The only thing I remember is the lesson about not building your house on a weak foundation. Gotta have a strong foundation, doncha know? I believe they must have stopped as that is my only real memory of that trailer and I only went for a few weeks.
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Southpaw Bookworm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #174
185. You're welcome
Shit like this (and also fun "Christian" stuff like having your teachers tell you you're going to hell) is why said friend will probably be homeschooling the child she's due to spurt forth any day now.
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MountainLaurel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #169
186. Another perspective
This one is from another friend who grew up in rural Virginia, where a similar "extracurricular activity" was "offered":

What's happening at Staunton now happened in Forest when I was a middle and high school student. It was sheer hell for me, because my father, as superintendent of schools, was spearheading the effort and he ran smack dab into the fundies. My disgust for the Christian religion predates from this time. All my so called "friends" abandoned me. Dad had a preacher assault him in the parking lot of a Burger King. (This one always makes me laugh, the idiot assumed my father was a weak, over-educated city boy, when in fact, Dad grew up working in the coal mines until he was 17. Dad blocked his first punch and then clocked him cold. LOL) We had people take shots with rifles at the house, and received so many death threats that we had state police protection. Yea, I got nothing but contempt for Christians, and these days, they ain't doing NOTHING to change my mind.
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 11:50 PM
Response to Original message
170. I'd be pissed
if my time was wasted while the fundie kids went to handle snakes and pray to Jeus W. Bush or whatever the hell it is that they do. Back when I was in school (a long long time ago when a chunky lawyer from Arkansas was president) if I missed class for some extracurricular, instruction went on and I was responsible for making up what I missed on my own time. It didn't kill me to make the work up later.
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 12:35 AM
Response to Original message
172. They are wasting time either way.
When I was in school (I graduated from high school in 1968), students often left class for an hour during the day to go to religion classes.

I am not religious, but I have to say some things that will probably annoy the other on this thread who are not religious.

Schools often waste class time to hold rallies for the other American religionsportsand the students are not even permitted to skip those sports religion classes. Attendance at pep rallies is mandatory in most schools.

Schools waste lots of time for lots of dumb reasons. And as for the coloring sheets, thats what our grade school students are doing most of the time anywayand what our middle school and high school students are doing, too, from the evidence of their educational preparation.

I dont approve of students going to religion classes in the middle of the school day, but then again I also dont approve of most of what goes on in schools under the guise of education anyway. Schools are basically just conformist social clubs and arenas for indoctrination. In my opinion, the students who leave school for religion classes and the students who stay in the classroom are all being miseducated. Its all pretty much a waste of time.

By the way, I teach college. I see what our public education system produces.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #172
176. So, would you be the only person to support me
when I make my regular attempts to refocus my classroom on actual learning? When I protest the obsession with holidays, parties, performances, games, etc., and ask for more focus on taking care of the business of school--learning?

I'm not saying young children (I'm an elementary school teacher) shouldn't enjoy school; I'm saying we can design instruction and classrooms so that they enjoy learning, since that's what we're there for. They can have their parties, etc. on their own time.

So far, I'm the only person, teacher or parent, I've ever met that thinks this way. The biggest wastes of time I've ever experienced happened during the uproar over the very idea that I wouldn't do all of that other stuff, because I was busy teaching. I gave it up. These days, I just go along; at least then I get to focus my attention on planning instruction rather than defending myself from a bloodbath.

Just my professional opinion: We can become a lot more literate, numerate, etc., if we do less, but spend the time and focus to do it better. The best place to start would be by relegating things that don't have to do with our primary purpose to outside of the school day and buildings.
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PA Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #176
178. I would support you
And have been unpopular with our PTO moms who think the kids can never have enough parties, assemblies, etc. Imagine the outrage when I suggested using the money spent on one of the many parties throughout the school year be used to buy something for the classroom instead. The teacher thought it was a great idea and suggested computer software and some new games for the kids to use when they have indoor recess.

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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #178
195. Great idea.
I want my kids to have fun; I want them to have fun LEARNING. To know that learning is fun, and the rush you get from "getting it."

There are many ways to make the actual process of learning enjoyable; I'd rather spend my time and resources doing that than planning "parties" which reinforce the idea that learning is a chore. You get it over with, and then you "party."

I'd like students to see that learning IS the party.
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #176
179.  LWolf, I certainly would support you.
Edited on Mon Jan-24-05 01:09 PM by tblue37
Visit my Teacher, Teacher website, where I post my commentary on teaching and education. I think you will find that we are kindred spirits.

BTW, I am also appalled that all of these holiday and birthday parties end up adding enormous amounts of sugar, fat, and white flour to the children's diets. On my Who's Minding the Children website I have an essay called "Gummi Bears for Breakfast," in which I deplore the junk that gets stuffed into chidlren these days.

Teacher, Teacher
http://www.teacherblue.homestead.com/index.html

Who's Minding the Children
http://www.childrensneeds.homestead.com/index.html

"Gummi Bears for Breakfast"
http://www.childrensneeds.homestead.com/gummibears.html
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #179
193. I've been browsing the site.
I'm particularly enjoying the ADD/ADHD articles.

As an elementary school teacher, I am more than aware that traditional classroom structure leads to attention and energy difficulties for all kids; that's become more apparent than ever in the face of current mandates that take more and more control of how we structure our classroom and day out of our hands. As the demands rise, and the one-size-fits-all instructional methods are enforced, the number of children who can't stay focused on the agenda is rising, too. It doesn't have to be that way, but as long as we are marching along on the "factory model" of public ed, that's the way it is.

As the daughter of an ADD mom, I couldn't relate any more. It took me 3 1/2 decades to recognize it, and I'm so glad I finally did. For most of my life, there was tension with my mom. Not that I didn't love her; she just drove me crazy. I couldn't spend more than 2 days with her without losing patience, and then there would be conflict. When I finally recognized it, it helped me to know how to respond to her. A few years ago, I very gently and casually pointed her in the direction of some information. She came back electrified; so much of her life made sense at that point. We've found ways to support each other; I support her "butterfly effect," and help her find ways to reduce distractions long enough to complete tasks. She supports my efforts to listen by not getting offended when I get lost and redirect her to the point she started to make.
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #193
203. Actually, the ADD/ADHD commentary is on another of my
websites:

"A Flea Hopping through the Pages of an Encyclopedia"
http://www.hyperfast.homestead.com/index.html

I have about 400 essays and articles spread across ten different websites. If you find my articles and commentary interesting, just go to the homepage of any of my sites to find links to all of the other sites.

On the Teacher, Teacher site I also have a piece called "The Inmates Are Running the Asylum," about the fact that teachers in the public schools are no longer allowed to assert suffficient authority to make the classroom an effective learning environment.
http://www.teacherblue.homestead.com/inmates.html

That essay grew out of the experiences I had when I did some substitute teaching in our local elementary schools a couple of years ago. I was horrified at how things had deteriorated since the time in the late 1980s and early 1990s when I regularly did volunteer teaching in my own kids' classes.

I admire those of you who can manage in the public school classroom these days. Your efforts are heroic, even though the society at large, policy-makers, and school administrators generally do everything they can to make your job impossible.

I will never teach in a public school again. I will stay at the college level, where I still have some control over what goes on in my classroom!
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #172
202. My mom always said:
"Education is what happens in between all the interruptions." She was a high school art teacher for 35 years (a long time to be the only one in a Class B (really Class A, but that would've hurt the sports program) school). I had no idea how true it was until I taught, too. When I taught high school English (only three years, I know, but I had children and chose to stay home until I could open my yarn shop), I was constantly frustrated by the special schedules for this, that, and the other thing. I have a lot of respect for elementary teachers--they work freakin' hard for not enough pay or respect. I can just imagine what the teachers in that district think of the Bible study time.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 08:59 AM
Response to Original message
177. It looks as if the locals are dealing with the situation....
Perhaps the Bible classes were acceptable in the past, but things change.

However, I wonder just how common Bible classes in public schools actually were. I started school in the mid-50's, in semi-rural Texas. There was NO regular religious instruction; no Bible teaching. We had Christmas pageants, but all of us were more or less Christian. Prayers may have been offered at the occasional event--I do remember noting that they said the "Our Father" wrong....
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fob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
183. Paging Bouncy Ball!!
Bouncy posted a thread the other day about fucking with the minds of these types. The ones that talk about SpongeBob advancing the "gay agenda" need to be encouraged to get more and more zany. Drop info about other cartoons and how hyper-gay they are and be serious and when they take it back to the breeding grounds it will be regurgitated to the point that people tune them out and they discredit themselves. So this can be applied to "the libruls are attacking jesus and won't let us read the bible in school", by starting Koran Classes and Satan Classes and Snake-Handling Classes and Chanting Classes and anything else one can think of. See how fast church and state separates then!
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