Call for Europe-wide swastika ban

[whatelseisnew]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4178643.stm

German politicians have called for Nazi symbols to be banned throughout Europe after Prince Harry was pictured wearing a swastika to a fancy dress party.
...
A senior Christian Democrat said the proposal may be discussed at the next meeting of European justice ministers.
...
The Duchess of York told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "Harry is a fine young man. He needs to be supported now.
...
The UK's Ministry of Defence has said the incident will not affect Prince Harry's place at Sandhurst military academy.

[D-Notice]

1. I have problems with this:

1. Swastikas have been used as good luck symbols for thousands of years, and

2. As usual we have a knee-jerk over-the-top reaction to someone's stupidity.

How about punishing him for doing this & trying to reclaim swastikas from the Nazis?

[DrDebug]

2. The Swastika has too many negative associations

I think that a ban in Europe and the US will be a good thing.

It's true that it has been used in other cultures and that it is even a good luck symbol, but in the western world it is synonymous with the Nazi regime. Let's face it the nazis borrowed from a lot of cultures like the roman salute etc.

[Mr Creosote]

6. I agree with you about the negative associations

but completely disagree about the ban. It seems that a lot of people - here in Britain anyway - are unaware of what the Nazis were about. What this "Prince" Harry thing has done, in addition to drawing attention to the crass attitudes of the toffs, has put the death camps back in the news. With Christian fundamentalists and fascist politicians rattling their cages here spotlighting where their policies lead is a good thing. If we forget the past, we might make the same mistakes again.

[Igel]

14. There's an age difference.

You can't both say there are too many negative associations and "a lot of people ... are unaware of what the Nazis were about." Many kids and young adults have no strong associations with the swastika, but when they use it (being trendy, rebellious, or whatever) they're condemned. Which is exactly what they want.

I think that older folks that have the strong negative associations want to make sure their associations continue. (As though it was the symbol that was so bad, not the behavior or attitudes.)

[fedsron2us]

7. So what are you going to do about all those ancient monuments

such as Roman mosaics that incorporate the symbol. Smash them up. It would also mean that Mel Brooks classic 'The Producers' could no longer be staged. This play is possibly one of the Jewish peoples greatest revenge on the Nazis. Context is everything. I am happy for the wearing of Nazi insignia in public to be banned but this would have had no impact on what Prince Harry did. This sort of atavistic fear of Nazi symbols only enhances their mystique and their power to induce fear. Far better to adopt the Mel Brooks principle and hold them up to ridicule. People need to be told that fascists are losers. Personally, I think if you start imposing blanket bans on this type of thing then the Nazis have won.

[chenGOD]

10. what about Buddhists? Hindus? They're just supposed to roll over and

accept this? "Oh yes, we know it's been a part of your religion for thousands of years, but sorry, not from today".

Censorship benefits nobody.

[Walt Starr]

62. YOU CANNOT BAN THE SWASTIKA IN THE UNITED STATES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Little thing called the First Amendment to the Constitution gets in teh way of that little bit of censorship.

Banning any symbol whatsoever is tyrannical.

[sweetheart]

4. yes, here's wikipedia on the traditional symbol of luck

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

[AP]

11. "trying to reclaim swastikas from the Nazis"!!!

How about if we let the Nazis keep them so that it's easier to figure out who the fascists are, so that it's easier to identify people who should have no say over the functioning of government or about society.

[sweetheart]

16. perhaps the symbol is the problem

People seem unable to distinguish fascism without the labels... were we
teaching history based on more substantial understanding of how fascism
arises, and what its roots are, and relied less on facile symbology,
we'd likely be in less trouble today.

The swazitka is sanskrit, has been around for thousands of years, and
will be around thousands of years after hitler's national socialists
are forgotten.

[AP]

20. I don't understand what you're trying to say.

But my knee-jerk response is that if people don't understand the danger of fascism, it has nothing to do with society's feeligns about one of its symbols. It's probably because a lot of wealthy interests would probably like to see it come back in vogue now that more and more of the people who risked their lives fighting it are disappearing.

But I guess you can say that if one of those royal boys is walking around with a swastika on his arm, either he's not aware of some things about fascism that he should be, or he is aware of some things about fascism and he's trying to send us a not-so-subtle hint about his political inclinations and his theories about society.

[sweetheart]

30. Hitler had a scottie dog, lets ban scottie dogs

THAT's what i'm trying to say. The symbol is being mistaken for the
real vice, and that be fascism. It seems that learning has been
reduced to identifying the symbols and not using them to divine the
current.

Likely this boy is a toff party boy, and did not think about it at all,
as he probably put very little thought in to his costume... as men of
his age generally are unaware... especially those of military ilk.

A friend in my youth was very proud of his fathers samurai sword that
he took off a dead japanese soldier in ww2. He did not see the sword
as a symbol of imperial japan, rather a neat toy. Honestly i think
that as generations progress, and WW2 grows increasingly in the distance
with generations unable to fathom its visceral reality, we will see
more "forgetting" and abuse... like you say.

I recall watching "world at war" on late night TV growing up in
california. It was sooo exotic... snow, funny looking cities, guns
and lots of neat looking toys, huge forests, trains, explosives all
that was done is running hours of propaganda video of how cool all these
toys were that i had never seen or played with. Surely had you handed
me an afrika corps shirt at age 20, i would have worn it to a party
as well, as the culture had engrained in me for many hours, how
exotic all that stuff was. Anyone can wear an armani shirt, but
africa corps is a real find... something my friends who wanted to go
in the military would have been jealous of.

My point is that the propaganda is having a reverse effect than what
appears to be intended. It is actually indoctrinating modern
generations to be curious about something that they really should
not be interested in... and its our own fault for showing them
all those infomercials.

[Hoping4Change]

36. I think your point about the danger of focusing on symbols is

on the mark sweetheart. People get hung up on the symbols of Hitler's regime and remain ignorant of what fascism is.

[AP]

50. I understand that Hitler tried to eradicate Weislaws -- a dog breed.

I've talked to Weislaw owners who feel that their dog is symbol of the fight against fascism, and of surviving.

I don't have a problem with that.

[0007]

39. The four paths will walk over all ignorance.

[anarchy1999]

3. Support Harry why?

I'm sorry, but I'm deeply offended by what he did, and I live in Texas, Dallas. This was an outrage, plain and simple. Own up and say I'm sorry, no excuses.

on edit:

You dear, Sir Harry are an embarressment(sp?) to your mother, she would be shamed of you.

[sweetheart]

5. Such a ban is silly

Obviously the CDU is not in power for a reason... they're busy with the
age old right wing pasttime of bringing up divisive stupidity instead
of dealing with real political issues like reforming germany's bloated
pensions and welfare problem.

It stinks of opportunism, and the CDU is as useless as its british
counterpart, the torys and the american re-pukes and indeed they
puke all over every body over and over again, the same tripe.

[inslee08]

35. Neo-Nazi Laws

I think the free speech provisions in European countries are weaker than they are here, and I do believe that laws banning Neo-Nazism in general exist in Europe. Thus, a ban on swastikas (with exceptions for historical monuments, etc) would make perfect sense.

[sweetheart]

42. Depends which state in europe

I know for a fact that france and germany have such laws. THe UK does
not, perhaps as it was not occupied. In germany, you can be arrested
for saying the holocaust did not happen. I don't know about all
european states, but the mistaken american assumption of a federal
law is exactly that. Each nation makes its own laws in this regard,
and i hope it stays this way.

[no_hypocrisy]

8. Why does a ban need the force of law in order to make it applicable?

Isn't the symbol in recent history strong enough on its own merits to encourage a choice of not displaying it? It seems like a classic right to free speech argument.

[TahitiNut]

9. Such a ban would increase and legitimize the 'power' of such a symbol.

I quite frankly don't know whether, on balance, more 'good' would come of that. Would it mean it was banned in stage plays? Movies? Art? Political speech?

I'm strongly inclined to oppose such broad prohibitions on free speech, prohibitions that don't separate wheat from chaff.

[Matilda]

12. Banning symbols seems a bit too Bush-like for my liking.

I understand the sentiment, but where do you draw the line? Just
about any symbol you can think of will offend somebody, and it's
really context that's all important.

Prince Harry wearing a swastika was insensitive and insulting because
of who he is, not just because of what it is.

[The Backlash Cometh]

18. Swastikas should be treated like the "N" word and the confederate flag.

At one time I had no objection to the confederate flag, until I grew increasingly convinced that those who were the most adamant about flying it were racist. Taught me something that had not occurred to me in my youth, and that was, that there were people, Americans, that one would do good to avoid.

These symbols aren't just about someone's heritage or political affiliation. It's about hatred that if allowed to grow, would culminate in murder. Remember Doug Williams from Lockheed? He was allowed to talk about killing black people for two years, before he went and did it. Though it was never determined that he was strongly affiliated to a Nazi group, he did have artifacts which suggested that he shared their views.

[fedsron2us]

19. Serious fascists in Europe do not prance around in Nazi gear

They wear business suits. Their ideology is just as dangerous. The hate comes first the symbols are taken up later. Here in the UK we have a substantial Indian population many of whose temples are adorned with the swastika. This does not stop them from being a target of racial hatred from fascist politicians.

[tx_dem41]

25. I'm not buying that the banning of symbols...

...is somehow going to eliminate the ugly ideology behind them. In fact, a case could be made that the banning would bolster the ideology.

[Kagemusha]

28. You really think controlling speech controls people?

That stopping people from talking about racist killings stops them from committing them?

And people wonder where the idea of thoughtcrime came from.

[The Backlash Cometh]

31. Oh, yes I do. When hate talk becomes so ingrained that people

like Rush Limbaugh are allowed to spew it on the open air and validate it to every white male across this country, I believe the results are predictable. There is absolutely no one in government today or in the media today stopping that kind of crap because once the right calls it political correctness, the media gets weak in the knees. The government won't stop it because the government is now controlled mostly by Republicans who want to keep the race wars alive.

So, if you don't stop it, then the only thing to do is fight back with stronger words from those who are left to defend themselves. Will this lead to civil war? I don't see how it can't. But if that's the world you prefer, then have had it. I was hoping to delay it a little longer by denoucing the hate symbols, organizations and talk.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

57. Go ahead and denounce them

Just don't expect most Americans to agree with the idea of banning them. We have a society that believes pretty strongly in the right of free speech and that right includes the right to speak things most of us find offensive.

[The Backlash Cometh]

60. I have no doubt that we will free speech ourselves into a civil war.

[Lorien]

32. It was speech that inspired the Nazis in the first place

it is speech and the control of the message that keeps BushCo in power. It can come from repetition or charisma, but speech can and does often control the thoughts of others.

[IndianaGreen]

33. Why don't we ban the Christian cross while we are at it?

Historically more people have been exterminated under the Christian banner than under the Nazi swastika. If we are going to start banning symbols, why should we stop with the swastika? Let's ban the Christian cross and the confederate flag while we are at it. All three have been symbols of intolerance, oppression, and murder.

Censorship is a slippery slope!

BTW, how come the costume party that Prince Harry attended was not criticized? I've read reports that some of the upper-class attendees were dressed as coolies and other "lower classes." Seems like Prince Harry was not the only one garbed in an offensive costume.

[The Backlash Cometh]

34. If the Christians began a modern day crusade in the same vein

as Hitler's Nazism, I have no doubt that there would be global pressure to denounce the cross & Christians. But Christianity hasn't taken that road...yet.

However, there has been a modern Christian sect which has promoted murder or genocide and which has been denounced by the larger Christian body. Because of it, burning crosses have been banned because they represent the beliefs of a wayward Christian based group called the KKK.

So, as you can see, we have banned hate crosses before, for the same reason that we should ban swastikas.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

58. You can still burn crosses

You just can't do it to either intimidate or, of course, do it on someone else's property.

[The Backlash Cometh]

61. No kidding? So when it's a sign of hatred, it is subjected to a hate

crime? Who knew? Alicia, burning crosses and men in white robes are intimidating to black people for reasons steep with historical background. You are pissing into the wind on this one.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

70. If a person does it in his yard to intimidate next door, that's hatred

But if a bunch of mother kluckers get together on a farm, there is no direct target and they can do as they please. I am talking about the 1st Amendment.

[DoNotRefill]

13. man, I bet the greeks would be pissed about that...

it's used in a lot of their ancient artwork.

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

15. Yeah, there's a new regime that plans to use it again

and it ain't in Germany- it's in Washington.

[The Backlash Cometh]

17. Is the iron cross a swastika?

I saw it on a cd holder at Best Buy.

[dummy-du1]

29. No

It was a Prussian medal for bravery, that was designed by the architect and painter Karl Friedrich Schinkel for his King Friedrich Wilhelm III in the beginning of the 19th century. After the first German unification of 1871 under Prussian leadership it was inherited by the Second German Empire.

[mogster]

21. What is 'banned' supposed to mean?

I mean, is the ban going to affect _any_ use of the symbol, even when it's used in anti-nazi gear?

Like this:



As for PH; how dumb can you get? :crazy:
Don't they have PR advisors in the royal court?

[nickine9]

22. i went to see The Producers in london...

yesterday, looks like i did it just in time. The whole "Harry/Nazi" fiasco gave an extra frisson to the whole thing epsecially when bialistock (sp?) and bloom have to wear swastika armbands to get the author of Springtime For Hitler to give them the rights to his play.

I think censorship like this merely feeds the warped paranoia of the people who support extreme right wing causes.

[Taxloss]

54. The cast of the producers will not become heads of the Commonwealth.

Harry might be.

[nickine9]

59. which is a bit of a shame

as they'd probably do a better job than the windors

[amazona]

23. harry needs to be ignored not supported

"Harry is a fine young man. He needs to be supported now.

Yeah, right, just when the royal family and the British tourism commissions have extracted all they can out of the death of Diana, bogus claims of murder, blah de blah and so on...along comes Harry to draw new attention and to keep this long-running soap opera in the headlines.

At least let them work for the publicity. Release a movie with Paris Hilton or something...

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[mogster]

24. Prince Charles did the right thing

He's sending him to Auschwitz to learn that this isn't something you joke about.
Good thing. A lot of European youngsters are travelling down there each year (We've got two girls in our family that went with their class at school) to experience and see for themselves what the nazi's did, in closeup.

Make them see things in a different light, allright.

[amazona]

27. yes, agreed, a classy move by Charles

I understand he is a difficult personality but he seems to try to do the right thing where he can.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[Darth_Kitten]

26. I don't think many swastikas are floating around Europe.....

:eyes:
Not all europeans are stupid, pampered fools who think dressing up Nazi chic is trendy.
Not the solution, Harry needs to face the consequences for his stupidity, not the whole of Europe. :eyes:

[Hoping4Change]

37. Why aren'tt any of his teachers being pulled on the carpet?

I'd like to know exactly what he was taught about the World Wars.

[Taxloss]

53. His teachers are too busy helping him cheat.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/3743646.stm

Overprivileged prick.

[Hoping4Change]

66. How utterly pathetic is that. I am astounded that

it was cheating in self-expression. I find it odd that when he had a choice at self-expression when I believed no one was looking ie the choice of a costume he opted for a Nazi uniform.


To play the Devil's Advocate perhaps the costume expressed how he feels about his royal family where by all accounts one sucks in ndividuality to tow the "family" line.

[amber dog democrat]

38. This is stupid. What is needed is a world wide ban on Fascism

I could care less about the symbols. As fascism is found in multitudes of places and expressions, world wide opobrium would be better directed to the kinds of political systems where the industrial and political systems combine to form oppressive governments who oppress civil rights, suppress dissent and do not respect the rights of individual citizens. I could care less about a swatika or two being worn at some party.

I used to see frat boys wearing Klu Klux Klan outfits to Frat parties as late as 1976 here in Austin, Texas. I am sure the attitudes did not go away even if the costumes did - PR being what it is these days.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

40. How do you ban fascism?

Just curious really, but I agree with you about not banning symbols.

[Deja Q]

47. It's a lovely thought, but it's also a paradox.

To ban fascism would in turn make those doing the banning fascists.

People need to be in control. Not give it to a handful because the handful will eventually find a way to sleaze it and exploit it. America was the latest attempt at this; but I can see many laws and doctrines that just don't jibe with the Constitution either.

[Nitrogenica]

41. They are either with us or against us!

[Stop_the_War]

43. Anti-Semitism is wrong

I think the ban makes perfect sense.

[Deja Q]

46. Hypocrisy in this world, your comment is beyond absurd.

We demand that bad things be hidden under the guise that for people to see this will make them feel that way too, or whatever.

Then we cry "we want freedom and education and awareness!" when somebody else in power hides something we like to see.

It's almost funny, how life works...

The swazzie symbol and all of that is vile, yes. Undoubtedly. I'm not Jewish but I am homosexual so I too know the utter intricacies of the Nazi movement, never mind the base philosophy that many a fascist state adheres to...

But I find that education and remembrance are a bit more important than hiding things, pretending they never happened. After all, if we don't remember and learn from the past, we'll repeat it. How many examples of this do I get to say? I shouldn't have to say ANY. At all. (Who wouldn't agree to this, or is it just too rational for our spoon-fed, namby-pamby masses?)

As for anti-semitism, my friend: So do I. It is wrong. But it doesn't make the ban a good thing, and there's no sense in it at all!

(on edit: BTW: The subject line is not aimed at you specifically. I speak of a more generalization in people.)

[Stella_Artois]

51. Thats an admirable sentiment

But banning the swastika will not make anti-semitism or any other far right beliefs disappear.

On the contary, it will martyr their cause.

Everyone should be able to see a swastika, and learn what the symbol meant.

As George Santayana said "Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

[gottaB]

44. the Swastika is unlike other symbols of hate

When Prince Harry, third in line to the succession of the throne, called the chef at the Rattlebone Inn a "fucking frog," the meaning of the insult was provided by the context. He was not expressing animosity towards our amphibian friends, but rather towards the people of France, a group which includes the chef at the Rattlebone.

The Swastika immediately symbolizes hatred. It stands for mass murder in the name of racism. The context in which it is used gives it other meanings. For example, it may be used to dramatize the tyranny or luridness of the Nazis. But it never loses its essential meaning. Not for those who remember, anyway.

And there's the rub. Who remembers? Many here have surely read the piece in Spiegel by Matthias Matussek, When Harry Met Hitler. One line that was not translated from the German piece (entitled appropriately Drink, Zigarette, Hakenkreuz: Cool ins Vergessen) was this:

Offenbar haben die Briten die Opfer der Nazis inzwischen gründlicher vergessen als wir.

Roughly,

"Apparently the Brits have forgotten the victims of the Nazis more profoundly than we have."

As an American, my kneejerk response to these sorts of issues is to advocate complete freedom of expression. However, the ignorance and meanness exhibited by the young Prince Harry, third in line to the succession of the throne, may indeed be worthy of special consideration, given Europe's rather recent history of totalitarianism, mass murder and war. If they agree that displaying a swastika is the political equivalent of burning a cross on somebody's yard, it's no skin off my nose.

[Deja Q]

45. Can you say 'knee-jerk'? OTOH, look at who's making the request...

The symbol and the meaning behind it would anybody feel squeamish.

But what's to ban? The swazzie there is akin to America's own confederate flag. And while that flag is despicable, to ban it is no better than banning a 63 year old Bugs Bunny cartoon.

We need to keep these things around to REMEMEBER the past so we can improve on the future.

Besides, anybody who chooses to proudly show their symbol takes away a lot of guessing; the confed flag alone can be seen on many a redneck's car even in Minnesota.

Keep it. Let their own flaunt it. That's their business, so long as they don't start hurting or killing people. THAT is when it needs addressing. Not before. Tolerance is the issue, folks. Not fascism. Even if it is against something seen almost universally as a representation of evil.

[Taxloss]

55. I agree.

Remember, don't eradicate.

But Prince Harry is still and idiot.

[Tinoire]

48. No. Do NOT ban it!

Let it come out in the open. Let them show their faces so we can see who they are. Let the KKK wear their hoods and the neo-Nazis wear their swastikas. I want to know who they are.

And Harry. I hope that was no more than an incredibly stupid, juvenile thing to do.

[phrenzy]

49. It's Called SATIRE?

My God. I don't know why, maybe it is my penchant for tasteless humor but I found the whole thing hilarious. He KNEW the irony of it. He KNEW it would stir shit up. He KNEW it would get finger-wagging do-gooders to throw a fit and I'm sure he's kicking back and enjoying it.

Not to mention, I kind of empathize with the kid. He was clearly from the beginning considered 'the other one of Diana's kids' with his Goody-goody brother getting all of the attention - he was just some expendable red-headed little shit. Hell, all the headlines even constantly went on about how prince William was Diana's 'favorite' - I think he's just giving the whole thing a big 'fuck the world' and I don't blame him. He is an absurd situation.

Punk bands have used the swastika (with IRONY) as a form of satire for a long time to spoof fascism. Or do some of you actually believe that Prince Harry somehow wishes to encourage a resurrection of the Third Reich and join them?

I look at this the same I would look at showing up at a costume party dressed as a hillbilly w/ a confederate flag cap and overalls. It's clearly just goofing on something. Of course, the confederate flag is connected to something just as despicable as Nazism.

And this doesn't even touch on the chilling idea of banning 'symbols' because they 'offend' you. That is fucking scary and I am sad to see other lefties support such crap.

Finally, let's face facts - In terms of a 'costume' - Well, the Nazi uniforms were just plain cool designs. They were pure evil scumbags, but damn they were the most stylish villains of all time.

I know I'll get flamed to hell for all of this - But I have to just be honest. Maybe somebody will call the cops on me and have me arrested for being a Nazi 'sympathizer' because I feel it is OK to spoof the nazis.

Is it EVER OK to make fun of the Nazis then?

[Taxloss]

56. Oh, please.

:eyes:

I'm not going to "flame you to hell", but Harry was wrong. For a start, there's the hypocrisy involved. This was not a public event - it was a private party and another partygoer took the photo and flogged it to the Sun. It wasn't satire, it was a grotesque error of judgement from an ignorant and over-privileged young man.

I don't support the banning of the symbol at all, it's an absurd over-reaction, but Prince Harry deserves the vilification he has received. A man who may well lead the Commonwealth should never have attended a party with a "natives and colonials" theme, let alone in the Nazi outfit.

Yes, it's still fine to make fun of the Nazis. But it's not on to wear a swastika armband if you're third in line to the throne.

How would you react if Jenna Bush wore a KKK hood to a party "satirically"?

[nascarblue]

63. "How would you react if Jenna Bush wore a KKK hood to a party "

Are you serious? What rock have you crawled out from under? Barbara Bush (Jr.) just joined the Skull and Bones last year! Who by the way, if you do your research, make Nazism there main credo.

It's rich kid costume satire. He wasn't making a political statement and if he was, it was just might be a statement that so many of us would make at an Anti Bush, Anti Blair rally. How many nazi references have you seen associated with our current administration and political climate? I could draw comparisons for a day on here. I can't believe this thread has gotten so much clucking like a bunch of hens considering we live in the friggin fourth reich right now! Wake up! What's next, Robert Blake?

And as far as the anti-semitism goes, that gets more and more worn out with 50 years of Israel doing to Arabs what was done exactly to them. When I drive by the museum of Tolerance now in L.A. I want to post that photo of the Palestinian playing violin, or the wall, or the camps, or the dead kids, or the barb wire, or the bulldozers. Tolerance is getting old for me to be quite honest. Not to mention other parts of the world like South America, Mexico, South Africa, and even here in the good ol' USA that you all think is still a Democracy that Israel's Mossan have put there bloody hands on.Of ocurse my apologies to any of the very few remaining holocaust survivours maybe still around. I know most of you don't agree with the current state of Zionist Israel.

But you fellow Dems, cut the guy some slack. If I was him I would hurl back at you that at least we don't have a a President whose grandfather Prescott who funded 50 million to Hitler to kill 100's of 1000's, or whose daddy covered for dozens of Nazi war crimes protecting them from prosecution, paying them top dollar to give us bunk information causing dozens more of our own citizens to be killed and hundreds arrested, or his brain KK Rove, whose poppy was an Nazi SS officer, and even my own damn Calif state governor whose papa who also was tied into the Austrian Nazi faction and "amires Hitler" makes us way more guilty, in my opinion, by our lazy complacency and our arrogance at lashing out at this rich kid having a prank. There should be 4 or 5 million of us taking the week off headed for the White House instead of bickering over a uniform that gets rented out 100's of times every Halloween!

[Taxloss]

64. Harry is supposed to be the third in line to the throne.

I don't think he's a Nazi, and I'm sure no one else on this thread does. But he has shown the most spectacular error in judgement in wearing a costume that many people will consider to be offensive. He showed an error of judgement for attending the party in the first place, in my opinion, because of the theme "natives and colonials". About as much taste as holding a "slaves and confederates" party in the US.

Comparing Bush and Blair to Hitler is one thing. This is another. I didn't even mention anti-semitism, and I didn't have to because Hitler's attempt to flatten my home city is still comfortably within the living memory of many of its residents.

As for "What rock have you crawled out from under?", leave the insults in the playground.

[neweurope]

52. Some answers from Germany:

„I think the free speech provisions in European countries are weaker than they are here.“
I would not call them „weak“ at all. We just have good laws against hate speech, and these laws wqork very well. No Rush Limbaughs (hope I got one of the right names here) for us so far. It cannot be, can it, that you still underestimate the influence of hate speech?

„Why does a ban need the force of law in order to make it applicable? Isn't the symbol in recent history strong enough on its own merits to encourage a choice of not displaying it?“
Unfortunately not. Some people never learn. We have Nazis in Europe now (in fact a growing number of them – with growing unemployment people tend to go looking for the simple answers). Society hs to show them that this thinking is not welcome and will never be welcome again.

„These symbols aren't just about someone's heritage or political affiliation. It's about hatred that if allowed to grow, would culminate in murder.“
Exactly. Takimng the symbols away won‘t make that kind of thinking go away. But the symbol is a rallying point and an advertising.

„I mean, is the ban going to affect _any_ use of the symbol, even when it's used in anti-nazi gear?“
Of course not. Neither will it be removed from ancient design as some here also suggested.

„This is stupid. What is needed is a world wide ban on Fascism - I could care less about the symbols.“
It‘s not stupid. World wide ban sounds fine... one of the first steps on this way is baning the symbols they use.

„But banning the swastika will not make anti-semitism or any other far right beliefs disappear.“
No. But – see above – it takes away advertising and rallying point. Like the swastika is a sign so is forbidding the swastika a sign.


-------------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[sweetheart]

71. I don't think people on DU realize that the CDU is the german GOP

and that we're having our chain yanked by some right wing asshole
parliamentarians who are just being opportunistic to get some attention
for their flaccid political fortunes.

[neweurope]

72. You are right - they are being opportunistic. But I support the idea

nonetheless. Schröder was opportunistic when he didn't send troops to Iraq. It was still a good idea :)


-------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague

[Phelan]

74. Or maybe you took a long nap in your comparative politics classes

While the CDU is right of center in German politics, they are still quite far to the left from the US GOP. The political spectrums of Germany and the US don't line up, rather the entire German political field is to the left of the US.

[sweetheart]

75. Maybe not

I accept that all european parties are left of their american
counterparts, and i've even asked theo waigel, the CDU finance minister
under a previous administration questions regarding globalization in
a berlin forum for european business. There are, however some common
dreams between these right wingers and they are supported more so by
the GOP than their left coutterparts, much as european parties support
the democrats, even though truth be told, the democrats are a lost
party relative to the greens that are closer to their politics.

My point is that the Christian Democratic Union is an opposition party
that, like the birtish tories, is desperate for some attention, and is
shaking their opportunistic stick.

[Dirk39]

76. One answer from Germany to Germany:

Did you ever have a look at Schröders' Desk?

60 years after Ausschwitz we have a chancellor with a swastica on his desk.
A chanceloor mourning about his lost father, who died before he could kill more jews and "Untermenschen".
A corporate whore and idiot. And people all over the world are angry about a 20 year old guy in Great Britain with a Swastica?
I don't care about Harry at all as long as people like Schröder are part of any european government.
And I'm pretty much aware of what's going on in Europe and esp. Germany before I give North-Americans lessons in democracy.

Dirk

[nascarblue]

65. Doesn't anyone remember the movie where a kid wears...

..A Nazi uniform for a Halloween prank and he's Jewish? It takes place in the late 50's somewhere on the east coast? Baltimore maybe? His dad is a bookie and he catches alot of the same crap. Damn, I wish i could remember the movie. the point is whether it's a prank which is what we all did at the age, or an actual political statement, it says something about the world we're living in right n ow and where we're headed and if you can't see that with indefinite detention with no due process and the US building concentration camps all over the world not finding one out of 1,631 ""terrists" detained under heavy torture, that should tell you something. They know within a few days these guys are innocent. They're just practicing for what's more to come. Iran, Syria, Jordan, Venezeula, the rest of the nations ending in Stan, and so forth. Why do you think theyre so many israeli, and Saudi secret service "contractors" in Iraq? You don't send 300+ rabbis for a few hundred Israeli's. Who do you think is going to do all the bombing of Iran with us? Heeeeellllo?

[Fleshdancer]

67. banning it will give it far more power it does NOT deserve

Perhaps I'm dead wrong on this issue, but one does not become educated on the extreme racism and hate the swastika represents by just banning it. Banning it doesn't do anything to inform younger generations of the hell hitler created and it doesn't win the hearts and minds of those sick enough to believe the Holocaust was "no big deal", or worse, change the minds of the idiots who believed it never actually happened.

[Jack_DeLeon]

68. I think European laws that ban....

certain symbols are rediculous.

You cant even play any sort of historical WWII game with swastikas because they are banned in Europe.

[tuvor]

69. I agree with manwoman and George Carlin

www.manwoman.net and http://www.manwoman.net/swastika/swastika2.html

It's been around for fucking ever, folks. God damn nazis aren't gonna change that.

I saw George Carlin on Tim Russert the other night saying that words are just words. I'm sure he'd say the same about symbols.

All this being said, li'l Hank should get a damn good thrashing for being a thoughtless, insensitive son of a bitch.

[Kinkistyle]

73. We need to ban all forms of the word "nigger"

Because we all know only racists use that word... oh wait.