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wicket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 07:08 AM
Original message
Boy, 12, charged in toddler's rape, death
http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2005/01/12/boy_12_charged_in_toddlers_rape_death/

A 12-year-old Springfield boy has been charged with murdering and raping a 3-year-old boy, a prosecutor said yesterday.

The 12-year-old is not being identified because of his age. He was scheduled to be arraigned in Springfield Juvenile Court today.

Hampden District Attorney William Bennett said that 3-year-old Jeremy Rosario Milan died on Dec. 19, after being hospitalized with bruises and a severe head injury. The 12-year-old was charged with assaulting the child and pleaded not guilty to the crime in Juvenile Court on Dec. 20. He is being held on $10,000 bail in the custody of the state Department of Youth Services.

According to an autopsy, Jeremy died from blunt force trauma to the brain. Bennett said Jeremy was raped at least twice and beaten several times between Dec. 11 and Dec. 17, while he was left in the care of people outside his immediate family.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 07:20 AM
Response to Original message
1. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
BBradley Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. WTF?
You can understand somebody wanting to have sex with an 8-10 year old. I sure as hell can't.
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Connie_Corleone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 07:40 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Ditto...WTF?? n/t
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melnjones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. 3-4 year olds are raped, even by adults.
Unfortunately it does happen, quite a bit.
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AngryOldDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #6
15. It happens, sadly
But rationalizing it at ANY age is totally unacceptable and obscene, as I'm sure you know.

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melnjones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. Of course...
That wasn't my argument:-)
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AngryOldDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 07:43 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. Sexual abuse of a child is unthinkable at ANY age
And I just do not understand the mind of anyone who would post such a thing...
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #1
8. You can?
Damn

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Pert_UK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #1
11. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt......
and assume that you just phrased that really, REALLY badly.....I mean, as badly as anyone has ever phrased anything.

Sorry, but your statement really does give the impression that you share these desires. I suspect (and am hoping) that what you mean is something like....

"Given society and the media's increasing sexualisation of children, and how children are forced to act and dress in ways that far outstrip their genuine maturity, I can understand how somebody might mistake a 10 year old as somebody it is appropriate to be sexually attracted towards...."
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #1
24. Uh, was this guy banned?
Or reported to the police?
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wordout Donating Member (355 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. ya,that's right.
everybody call pat fucking robertson.
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BBradley Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. I'm with Pert_UK in that I seriously hope he worded his response badly.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #24
36. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 07:30 AM
Response to Original message
2. Look, this may sound really stupid to some, but there's a whole trend
toward pushing little kids into situations and styles of dress and behavior that they aren't not only ready for, but really shouldn't be having to worry about at their age.

Ever see Disney Channel? These little girls that they have on there are not only 'rock stars' but even the ten year olds look like junior street walkers. And Disney has a habit anymore of depicting adults as morons who are always being rescued by their kids. So the kids not only don't respect adults, they think they're all idiots as well. (Although I admit, this is not new.)

I don't condone the behavior of this kid at all. But what they're being exposed to anymore is definitely a factor. And don't start me on video games.
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AngryOldDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 07:49 AM
Response to Reply #2
9. Still no excuse, as you know...
...and typically, that reasoning has been used about the victim in such circumstances.

While I wholeheartedly agree with you about the Disney Channel (where kids aren't really kids and adults are played for fools) and video games, there is something very psychopathic and pathological going on here. I can't begin to think where the wiring in this kid's brain is so f---ed up to the point that he would consider doing this to a 3-year-old.

I have a 3-year-old myself and these stories just make me physically ill.
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bleedingheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #9
16. while I agree that there are kids wearing provocative clothes
including much older kids...the problem is that parents are buying it.

What is more pathetic is the parent who complains but buys the g-strings for their 12 year old kid anyways...

As to this situation I think this is more than video games and tv...
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AngryOldDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #16
26. I don't buy it....
...and let me tell you, shopping for my young teen daughter (she'll be 14 in about a month) began to be a slow trip through hell for us beginning when she was about 9 or 10. We started calling some girls' clothing departments Hookers 'R Us...the gauzy material, suggestive print on t-shirts, low cut tops, low cut pants, skirt hems clear up to you-know-where...even she would not wear this stuff. Luckily, we have found a store that has relatively conservative items, and I am grateful that I have a relatively conservative kid (clothing wise, that is) who knows good taste from cheap.

Walk though the halls of her junior high and you get an eyeful. You do have to wonder what parents are thinking, and my daughter's explanation is that some parents want to be considered "friends" and "peers," not parents.

The kid in this story is just plain sick. Put him away now.
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #9
31. The wiring
I can tell you something about the wiring of the young rapist's brain. He himself has been a victim of child sexual abuse -- apparently pretty rough sex, too. I'm 99.99999% positive this is yet another case of a child acting out what was done to him. CHildren don't have a frame of reference for this type of thing unless it's "taught" to them by others.

We can all be outraged -- okay, we SHOULD all be outraged -- but let's be equally outraged for what the little criminal himself represents: another victim himself.

Does that mean he shouldn't be punished? What it mostly means is that first and foremost he needs HELP, and quite a bit of it. And HIS abuser(s) need to be caught and punished severely. Should the 12-year old be punished too? I can't know from this vantage point, but I rather doubt it: psychological help is THE imperative.
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Sterling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #31
45. You are right.
I posted my next post before I read yours. This kid has most likely been abused similarly.
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Meldread Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #31
55. You took the words right out of my mouth.
This is exactly what I was going to post and is exactly along the same lines of my thinking. It is EXTREMELY common (like, literally in 95%) in cases like this for the child victim to be abused him or herself, and just be acting out their abuse onto another child.

First and fore most he should get the psychological help that he needs. Then, and only then, should any punishment be administered. It will also help to bring the REAL criminal to justice -- the one who abused him.
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CoffeeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #31
67. I agree with you 100 percent...
Edited on Thu Jan-13-05 03:37 PM by TwoSparkles
It is most likely that this 12-year old boy was a victim of sexual abuse.

You reiterated what I've heard many therapists say. It is unnatural for a child to act out sophisticated sexual behavior. If children do it, it is a red flag, indicating that they were sexually abused.

It is true that many children are curious and will "play doctor" or an innocent game of "you show me yours, I'll show you mine." However, this is normal curiosity and certainly not sexual in nature. They're simply curious about their bodies and about others' bodies as well.

One therapist I talked to put it this way. All children dance. They all move, wiggle and jump around to music. However, children don't naturally know how to waltz. If you saw a child waltzing, you would know that they had been taught. Same with highly sophisticated sexual behaviors--such as intercourse, oral sex, etc. Someone taught this 12-year old these things--most likely an abuser in his immediate family.

Also, this child is using sex as a weapon--to power up on someone less powerful than himself. This is also typical with children who have been sexually abused by a more powerful figure. These child-victims find someone powerless (usually a younger child or an animal) and they repeat what was done to them.

Children are not born with the desire to rape, dominate and harm people who are less powerful than themselves. Those are learned behaviors.

I believe this 12-year old is a victim of sexual abuse himself. Most adult rapists, child molesters who are studied reveal horrid childhoods. I hope this 12-year old receives therapy and that his perpetrators are held accountable.

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Sterling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #9
44. It sounds like this 12 year old has been abused himself.
Could be wrong but it would be par for the course.
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CoffeeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #9
61. The Disney mentality serves pedophile perpetrators...
Edited on Thu Jan-13-05 01:41 PM by TwoSparkles
Pedophiles have incredibly sophisticated denial systems. That's what allows them to molest children and still lead seemingly normal lives.

Two thought-process that are nearly universal to pedophiles are:

--Sex with a child does not harm the child. There are no deleterious effects.

--Children are sexual creatures and they want to have sex with adults.

As sick as this sounds, these are two common sick beliefs that those who treat pedophiles find--almost always. After you break through the, "I didn't do it. I swear I didn't touch that child" this is the muck that you find in the perpetrator mind.

Disney's sexualization and adultification of children plays into the denial systems of the pedophile. Disney portrays children as having adult-like intellectual and cognitive thought process--that children absolutely do not possess. Disney movies (and similar media) portrayls of children reinforce sick pedophile belief systems.

On another note--The initial post has been deleted, but I get the impression that this poster was advocating thoughts that were congruent with a pedophile. If we have a live pedophile here, please take note: Child sexual abuse is devastating and traumatic to a child. A child lacks the ability to fight back--physically and psychologically. They will comply out of fear and their bodies will react purely out of automatic biological responses. Their silence and the natural, automatic responses of their bodies should never be used to justify raping a child. Initial poster--if you believe that children are provocative or if you believe that they like sexual abuse--I urge you to seek professional help before you harm an innocent child--if you haven't done so all ready. I assure you--children who are molested grow into adults who have eating disorders, depression, panic attacks, phobias crippling emotional problems and addictions. They spend thousands on therapy and struggle with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Sometimes they do kill themselves. All of this is directly due to the sexual abuse. Again, please seek professional help.

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sherilocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 07:51 AM
Response to Reply #2
10. Huh ?? I don't think that you mean to say that
if a child wears provocative clothing they are asking to be raped or that a 12 year old child should be excused because he watched too much TVs. Hmmm, maybe the 12 year old had too many Twinkies. The TV defense is not new and was used in Florida a few decades ago. It didn't work and the kid (now an adult) has recently been released.
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #10
38. Oh for Pete's sake, how did you ever get that out of what I said? I said
that kids are being forced into situations that they shouldn't be having to deal with until they are in their mid-teens at the very least. And Disney Channel, one of the biggest and best examples, is really pushing it. No one intimated that a trampy looking little prepubescent girl deserves ANYTHING. Kids are not allowed to be kids anymore.

I think you've had too many Twinkies today yourself.
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sherilocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. I could not make the connection at all
with the original post, expecially when you said:

"I don't condone the behavior of this kid at all. But what they're being exposed to anymore is definitely a factor. And don't start me on video games. "

If it is "definitely a factor", what is it a factor of? I'm glad that you don't try to excuse the 12 year old's behavior, but he raped and murdered the victim. It sounded to me like you were blaming his crime on adult pressures, the way kids dress, and TV stations like the Disney Channel.
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. So, you don't think anything they see or experiece vicariously every
day influences their behavior or their actions? This shit is being thrown at them through no fault of their own, it's just that it has become big business to pander to little kids and dress them up like trash. You know, like the 'Ho and Pimp Halloween costumes that we available this year.

Or do you think this kid was a natural born killer/rapist? You think he just up one day and decided to rape and kill a three year old? I supposed that's possible, but I doubt it. You get all huffy and puffy, but offer little by way of your own ideas. So I say run with you own interpretation of what you think I meant. Or for that matter since you're so tuned into everything, why don't you tell us all why he did it since apparently you know. That way we won't have the problem of discussing the issue, we can get it from someone who knows exacly why kids are having so many problems now days and why they do what they do.

BUT FOR THE LAST TIME, KIDS ARE BEING PRESSURED INTO ADULT SITUATIONS AND BEHAVIOR BY ADULTS BECAUSE IT'S BECOME BIG BUSINESS. And Disney isn't the only one, but it's a good example. And I don't know a whole lot of people who think some of these video games that they have now, i.e. Grand Theft Auto San Andreas, is a healthy influence either.


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sherilocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 06:10 AM
Response to Reply #40
42. I don't have any inside information on the mind of
the 12 year old who raped and murdered a three year old. Nor am I dismissing the notion that kids watch too much TV or that they get pressured into adult situations. But I do seriously doubt that the cause of the 12 year old's crime was any of the above.

The usual root cause for heinous sexual crimes is that the perp has been seriously abused himself/herself. The pressures that you speak of are modern in origin; sex crimes, unfortunately, predate the existence of tv and video games.

I don't think that you need to get yourself into such a snit because I found your first post difficult to decipher and because I disagree with you. I don't know anymore than you do exactly why this particular 12 year old turned out the way he did.
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Sterling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #40
46. Grand Theft Auto San Andreas
Great game, not for little kids though.
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DrWeird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #40
53. What a steaming pile of horse manure.
Grand Theft Auto San Andreas?

Disney Channel?

What's next? Catcher in the Rye? Witchcraft?
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wicket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #2
23. I've noticed that
And I find it quite disturbing. I'm no prude by any means, but why not let kids be kids, there is plenty of time for all of that stuff when they get older. Bleh.
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 07:35 AM
Response to Original message
3. WTF???
I can imagine the environment a 12 yr old who rapes and kills a toddler comes from.

Ah but it must be TV, not horrible parenting. Ugh.

Julie
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llmart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #3
12. More than likely.......
the 12-year old has been the victim of sexual and/or physical abuse himself.

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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #12
20. Exactly
that would be the environment he's from.

Julie
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KingChicken Donating Member (814 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 08:04 AM
Response to Original message
13. Psychosexual problems quite common....
Most people's psychosexual problems can be kept secret, but others come out in rape, murder, torture, public exposure & indecency, and extreme fetishes. I'm sure a lot of people posting here have some kind of fetish, usually it doesn’t involve harming others, but sometimes it does, sometimes it's much more extreme. This kid was probably developing some kind of sexual complex as a result of the trauma he was exposed to when he was younger.
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bleedingheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 08:06 AM
Response to Original message
14. this is just so sad...
I am so sorry for the parents of the little boy and I wonder if the 12 year old isn't a victim of sex abuse himself and just acted out what was happening to him.

Clearly the 12 year old is going to be going to a psych hospital.
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OKNancy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 08:09 AM
Response to Original message
17. What is wrong with these people in Blue states?
<sarcasm>
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Prisonerohio Donating Member (63 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 08:33 AM
Response to Original message
19. Why?
I would almost bet money the kid is a victim of sexual and physical abuse, but the right will use this as an example of how TV and INTERNET needs to be censored. The Christians will use this as another reason why we need to teach creationism in schools. Why doesn't anyone try to discover the real reason why this happens.
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SheepyMcSheepster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. exactly
welcom to DU!

until people can honestly look at what causes and perpetuates human behaviour like this, it will always be a problem. try as you might there are somethings you can't sweep under the rug.

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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. Lack of supervision is a contributing factor. n/t
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jhain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #19
30. Part of the reason
http://tinyurl.com/49whb


High Risk : Children Without A Conscience
by KEN MAGID


ANNOTATION
A compelling study of "children without a conscience" including case histories that explore the development of antisocial behavior.
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FizzFuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. I just read the customer reviews on that book..incl. this interesting one
Edited on Wed Jan-12-05 10:03 AM by FizzFuzz
woa.

I might have to buy it. Don't have any kids, much less at risk ones; I'm just interested in the subject. I've had too many experiences with psychopaths (milder cases on the spectrum, thank god)--brrr, scary.

On Edit: I just had to add this review from the Amazon site--does this describe Smirky??

<snip>
Excellent, frightening stuff, June 14, 1996
Reviewer: A reader
I stumbled across this book when it was first issued in 1987 and have found the information contained in it to be extraordinarily useful and accurate. It is a book about how sociopaths are made. When you consider that many of the 20th century's most prominent personalities have been sociopaths (Mao, Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot), it becomes clear that this is not a trivial subject. That said, it is amazing how little good information is available on sociopathy (now called "Antisocial Personality Disorder," once called "Psychopathy"). Dr. Magid really nails it. One of the perverse pleasures of reading this book is that he describes the typical childhood of the sociopath so well that every time you read about the life history of a tyrant or serial killer, you can basically predict what will be said: Abandonment & rejection by the parents, brutal physical punishment, and frequently a history of head injury and torturing animals. This book is essential reading for anyone who must deal with personality disordered individuals, which is to say, for everyone on the planet (they often rise to positions of considerable power -- ever wonder about your boss?)

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jhain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #33
37. of course... good reasons for W being W
what else can we expect with the Quaker Oats Man for a Mama?
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Princess Turandot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #19
48. What is your point??
a 12 year old boy who rapes and murders a 3 year old is a baby Ted Bundy. There are an awful lot of children who suffer various levels of abuse but do not kill toddlers before they are even teenagers. A similar case occured in NYS awhile ago, in which the killer was even younger than this one. A complete lack of empathy in a human being has to do with bad brain wiring IMO. AKA a sociopath. Personally, I think you are mocking the death of this child by tossing a gratuitous comment abt religion into the discussion. But your probably already know that.

The only plus side of this is that the kid was caught before he killed another six children.
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noonwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
28. What a double tragedy
A dead 3 year old kid and a 12 year old who is the perpetrator.

Questions I have:

Has the 12 year old been a victim of sexual abuse? If yes, was that abuse particularly sadistic?

Did this crime occur in a foster home? Was the 12 year old in some kind of therapy or treatment at the time?

I hate to write off a kid as young as 12. He's young enough that he can still be worked with, but he killed someone. There's a part of me that believes once that happens, he's probably on his way to being a sociopath.
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hyphenate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
29. One has to wonder how the 12 year old
has been treated in HIS lifetime. For a 12 year old to have thoughts about "raping" a 3 year old, there must be something in his own childhood which has led him to act in this manner. I'm not excusing it, but there has to be either sexual abuse in his own background, or physical abuse. Or both.

For a 12 year old to physically abuse a 3 year old, that's one thing. Some children do have a very high violent compulsion (those who will likely become the bullies at school) and beating is something their own family performs on either them or siblings. If the parents have neglected the child in terms of consistent punishment/actions discipline, of course the child will not understand the link between their actions and why it is not tolerated. However, one must wonder what the role of those parents is if a 12 year old, who most likely has had disciplinary actions somewhere in his background, could be left alone with a 3 year old without supervision. A 12 year old, while highly intelligent, can not understand the ramifications of what he has done in an adult fashion.

I would most certainly question the environment the 12 year old has had and what could have led up to such a horrific act.

If the 12 year old himself has been sexually abused, his actions are a way for him to act out his anger and his confusion. It's been proven that children who abuse animals are victims of child abuse themselves. They do not see the immediate connection between the way they have been treated and the way they treat an animal. It's also been shown that many serial killers have been abused in one fashion or another, and were also likely to have tortured small animals when they were children.

Everything is connected and totally linked in terms of the abuse circle. The link needs to be broken so that future acts of violence are not going to happen, but trying to make that kind of intervention is not easy, especially when parents are not always fit to be parents, and there is little to no supervision of their activities.
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ally_sc Donating Member (238 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #29
47. yes the whole thing is cyclic...eom
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FizzFuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 09:45 AM
Response to Original message
32. could be good old Psychopathy
Edited on Wed Jan-12-05 10:05 AM by FizzFuzz
Personality Disorders can surface early. It can be "helped along" by parental abuse/torture of course, or it can show up in kids despite parents who do a good job.

Harming, setting fires, tortureing and/or raping small weak victims, animal or child, is typical in the early background of diagnosed Psychopaths. The psychopath does these things because it's fun and exciting, basically. They are incapable of normal emotions, particularly empathy and fear. About the only emotion they are capable of is anger or whipped up excitement, so harming others, getting a buzz off of the victims pain and fear is a big motivation.

Dr. Robert Hare is the acknowledged expert in the field. His book, "Without Conscience: The Disturbing World of the Psychopaths Among Us is enlightening.

--so said FizzFuzz, not a professional, just an interested lay person.
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indie_voter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #32
41. Thank you
Edited on Thu Jan-13-05 12:06 AM by indie_voter
Bad parenting isn't always the culprit.

I confess to bias, I have a 4 year old son, so when I read this, I see my baby as the victim.

Yes, the 12 year old has problems. I am not sure it is something which can be cured. MHO.

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FizzFuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #41
52. you're welcome! I'm not a parent, but I've known many cruel kids
All psychopaths? I doubt it, but it takes Nature AND nurture to create a person. In varying amounts.

Here's a novel you might want to read, "We Need To Talk About Kevin" by Lionel Shriver. It was powerful. Very painful to read, for me, most of all because how Shriver evokes the mother's life, laid to waste by a child who appears to have been malevolent from the beginning. Also, society's, the school's, neighbor's and most of all, her husband's refusal to respect her reports of the steadily worsening, willful destruction being wreaked by this child are painstakingly described. She is the only person spending enough time with the child to actually see the full personality in action, yet on all fronts, her concerns are dismissed as her neurotic imaginings or are blamed on her motherly overprotection/neglect/medling/lack of involvement (see the contradictions? No matter what she does, it's not ok). As a woman, I could identify with this invalidation all too well.

It is a maddening study on the need for feminist awareness, in terms of the disrepect shown for women's experiences, and how this common attitude contributes in this case to the steadily escalating wreckage that perhaps could have been blocked somewhere before the ultimate tragedy, had a woman's testimonies been taken seriously.

Here's a snip from one of the reviews on Amazon:

<snip>
Eva Khatchadourian, Kevin's bereft mother, narrates this novel through a series of compelling letters to her estranged husband, Franklin. She examines her son's life, from conception to his terrible act of violence, trying to understand the why of it. What becomes clear early on is that Eva tortures herself with blame. She is guilt-ridden that her shortcomings as a parent might have caused Kevin's evil act, his violent behavior, his very nature. She must have failed, she must have been deficient as a mother, for her boy to commit such a chilling crime. She also considers that neither nature nor nurture are solely responsible for shaping a child's character. Her honest, introspective correspondence to her beloved husband causes the reader to consider that some children just might be born bad. How and when are psychopaths created? The reader is pulled back and forth between empathy and blame, anger and grief, and perhaps, ultimately to forgiveness.
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devilgrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 09:59 AM
Response to Original message
34. Jesse Pomeroy didn't have cable TV
Looks like we need a road trip down memory lane...



http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/history/pomeroy/1.html
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Florida_Geek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. Good point
there are just some people born evil IMHO.

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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #35
49. I cringe every time someone uses this phrase.
Edited on Thu Jan-13-05 10:18 AM by Commie Pinko Dirtbag
"Born evil." There's no such thing. It's RW codespeak.

Don't you think the boy having been a victim of abuse himself is a much simpler and more likely explanation?
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shrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #49
50. Not always, sadly enough
Some people are just a mystery -- there seems no reason for what they do.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #49
51. Yes.
Environmental factors almost always are at play in the development of behavior such as this. That doesn't mean that genetics are not a big factor, as well. Alas, the likelihood that someone with the genetics may also face environmental triggers for those genetics is also increased greatly.
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Ed C. Finley Donating Member (59 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #49
56. So let me get this straight
Because this kid might have been (probably was) abused himself, he gets a pass on raping and killing a baby. Works for me, my car got broken into and a bunch of shit stolen, that means I'm clear to break into other peoples cars and steal their shit. I'll be sure to tell the cops you said it was ok.

Whether this kid was abused or not, he had to know what he was doing was wrong, unless he was seduced by this 3 years olds sexual charms.

If, and only if he is found guilty, execute his worthless ass. (Then go after his parents)
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. "execute his worthless ass"?
Like I said, cruelty and perversion are native to our species.

:eyes:

Cruelty and perversion characterize the very moral reasoning that we set up to defend ourselves against (what else?) other people's cruelty and perversion.
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Ed C. Finley Donating Member (59 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #58
63. You are right
It was cruel and perverted (if he did what he did, after all he has not been convicted yet). And its not like I'm putting the whole blame on him. I said, if hes convicted and removed from this vale of tears, to go after the parents. If they abused him give them the chinese treatment too. (A bullet in the back of the head, caliber your choice.:) Hey, I'm a reasonable guy.
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #63
65. since I'm to choose the caliber...
... I choose a .000000000000000006 rimfire.
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Ed C. Finley Donating Member (59 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #65
66. Careful
That might leave a welt. Your right tho, wouldn't want to hurt him and put a cramp in his budding day care business.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #56
60. I was wondering when the first punishist willing to EXECUTE A 12YO
would show up. But please don't weasel out of it by locking him in jail until he looks like and adult and THEN executing. Execute him now, and make it public so the nation can see what it's collectively doing (through its lawful representatives). Jesus H. Christ.

Oh, and who said anything about "getting a pass"? That's a straw man. He's dangerous and society should be protected from him, but the right place to lock him up is a mental institution.
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Tacos al Carbon Donating Member (326 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #35
54. There are monsters in this world
Yeah, he might have been abused or suffered some trauma or something. On the other hand, maybe his parent(s) loved him and did their best. Or maybe whatever he went through was no worse than whatever millions of other kids go through without turning into beasts. Maybe this child is just a monster. What scares me is, at best, he'll be out when he's 21 and maybe he'll still be a monster then.
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prolesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #54
64. What do you think about
applying the death penalty in this case?
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Tacos al Carbon Donating Member (326 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #64
68. I don't know the facts
My initial instinct would be against it but, again, I don't know all of the facts. I suppose that they could theoretically be such that I would support the death penalty or acquital or anything in between. However, if the boy is, in fact, guilty of the monstrous crimes that he is charged with, I do think that civil confinement in a mental institution after age 21 should be carefully considered if officials do not believe that he is completely cured of whatever abnormality made him do this. The idea that this person could walk out in 9 years with an apparently clean (and sealed) record and might not even have to register as a sexual predator is frightening to me.
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shesemsmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 07:26 AM
Response to Original message
43. There is another good argument for testing for that extra y chromosome
and smothering at birth. Where where the Adults in this situation??
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
57. Demon child!
I, too, would caution people against assuming that the kid who is alleged to have committed these acts was necessarily a victim of abuse himself. A twelve year-old boy is certainly capable of forming sexual impulses without coaching, and it's a rare person who needs to be "taught" cruelty. It's just not true that human beings are naturally innocuous, and become wicked only with explicit prompting.

Cruelty and perversion are native to our species. The predatory boy somehow got a staggeringly big helping of these things when his nature was formed.

Upbringing is important. No one denies that. But I don't assume that it accounts for everything.
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bling bling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
59. Where were the people who were supposed to be watching the 3-yr old?
They seriously neglected that kid while he was under their care. Especially considering the article says he was raped twice and beaten several times.

Disgusting. On so many levels.
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AngryOldDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
62. Woman also charged in murder
Edited on Thu Jan-13-05 01:52 PM by AngryOldDem
...possibly the 12-year-old's mom...

http://news.bostonherald.com/localRegional/view.bg?articleid=63179&format=

<snip>Hampden District Attorney William Bennett said the woman, Marisol Alverio, 28, was arrested Wednesday afternoon on charges of murder and reckless endangerment of a child. She is scheduled to be arraigned Thursday in Springfield District Court.

``The evidence gathered indicates that Marisol Alverio acted with malice in failing to protect the victim from someone whom she knew was abusing Jeremy and in failing to seek medical attention for an obviously injured three-year-old child,'' Bennett said.

Bennett did not reveal the relationship between Alverio and the 12-year-old boy, whose name was not released because of his age.<<snip>>

ON EDIT: Provided link
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