Pope Falters During His Speech

[demdave]

BRATISLAVA, Slovakia (AP) - Slumped in his chair and slurring his words, Pope John Paul II struggled Thursday at the start of a trip to press Roman Catholic values on skeptical Europeans.
The frail 83-year-old pope, who is battling Parkinson's disease and crippling knee and hip ailments, looked pale and short of breath as he failed to read his full arrival speech for the first time in 102 foreign trips. An aide read most of the rest.


http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAWX0B4HKD.html

[ender]

1. wonderfully prophetic, doncha think?

[soleft]

2. If Arafat and the Pope die on 9/11 - well - see ya all whereever

[prolesunited]

10. You must have read my mind

because that's exactly what I though when I saw these two headlines.

[twilight]

3. Pope John Paul ...

I hope he is going to be ok. He has fought long and hard for many people and don't forget how hard he fought against the invasion of Iraq PLEASE! Have some respect for this very holy man!

:kick:

[soleft]

4. When he respects me I'll respect him - but I hope he's okay

[gWbush is Mabus]

6. first of all

I don't believe in "holy" men.
Secondly, I take offense to _anyone_ "pressing" their religion on to others.

[Octafish]

8. Pope John Paul 2 helped bring down the Iron Curtain.

That's more than most people do in their time on earth.

Here's to his speedy recovery.

[bambo53]

5. hmm,

It's getting harder to sell that bullshit in these modern days huh?

[demdave]

7. Once again...the religious tolerance of the DU shines through.

[Spider Jerusalem]

9. So...

we're supposed to be "tolerant" of beliefs which are outdated, misogynistic, homophobic, and themselves INTOLERANT because they bear the halo of RELIGION? Hmmm. Would you be tolerant of somone who said he thought homosexuality was evil, birth control was the work of the devil, and so on if he WEREN'T a religious figure? Apparently harboring beliefs like this in the name of "religion" gets you a pass.

[demdave]

11. Tolerate ..to respect others beliefs without sharing them.

Perhaps you don't understand the word.

[bambo53]

12. Respect being the key word,

Imposing your delusions on your neighbors is something else indeed

[Spider Jerusalem]

14. Oh, I understand the word, all right.

But I'll only go so far as to respect the rights of others to HOLD their beliefs. The beliefs themselves I am under no compulsion to respect, as I disagree violently with them. I suppose I tolerate beliefs of this sort in another accepted sense of the word: "to put up with; endure."

[roughsatori]

13. Some here think bigotry is OK when it is sanctioned by the Bible

Just do a search and read the "Gay Marriage" threads. I guess it is easier to support him if you are not a member of a group of people he encourages the oppression of in his Memos. That said, I wish no one ill health.

[PartyPooper]

15. A question for Catholic DU'ers

At what point will the pope be allowed to relinquish his daily duties without sacrificing his papacy? He is a very old and sick man. Are there provisions for someone else in the church hierarchy to assume his tasks? Or, is he expected to perform all of the functions of the pope until he dies? To me, it seems so sad and inhumane for him to continue like this. I hate to see anyone suffer unnecessarily.

O8)

[patcox2]

16. The pope has recognized the difficulty of his situation

He has stated "the hierarchy has no place for a pope emeritus." He feels he cannot step down because of this. In other words, his existence would be a problem for his replacement. Its silly, maybe.

[Selwynn]

17. Actually yes you are....

"we're supposed to be "tolerant" of beliefs which are outdated, misogynistic, homophobic, and themselves INTOLERANT because they bear the halo of RELIGION?

Frankly, yes - you are supposed to be tolerant of people you disagree with, even when you really don't like their point of view. That's pretty much one of the pillars of liberalism, and I'm liberal when its hard just like when its easy.

I'm happy to speak out and voice my disagreement with believes I believe are intolerant or wrong. I'm happy to choose not to participate in any organized Christian institution, even while possessing myself a Christian faith, because I do not support or condone what they support or condone. I believe dissent and debate is good and healthy when we feel something someone else is saying is wrong.

But that's not the same thing as spraying venom - a healthy degree of outspokenness is different than hatred, disdain or disgust. I don't hate Jerry Falwell, for example. He hates me, but I do not hate him. Instead I feel heartbroken for his wasted life, and feel sorry for him. And one of the main reasons I do not hate him is because I realize that by doing so I'm no better - in fact I'm doing the exact same things that I am criticizing in that man - hating someone else because I don't agree with them.

There is no place in this world for hatred. So yes, I answer yes, you are indeed to be tolerant of those who you disagree with. Actually I have a better word that "tolerance" -- you are to be compassionate to those who are without compassion, merciful to those who aren't worthy of mercy, peacemakers in the face of those who want to war with different races, or sexes, or creeds. That is how you show that you are BETTER than they are. Otherwise, I find you to be no better.

And forgive me, but a lot of people hear who spew out daily, vehement, snide, sarcastic, hatful, hurtful, mean-spirited, ranting tirades against the snide, sarcastic, hateful, hurtful, mean-spirited, ranting religious group of the day sound pretty fucking pathetically hypocritical to me, and an utter embarrassment to the Democratic Underground, the Democratic Party, or just human existence in general.

Why is it so hard for us to ACT BETTER than the people we so freely speak out against. Hey you've got a speck in your eye! You should listen to me and let me take that speck out for you! Never mind the two by four hanging out of my own eye socket...

Far be it from me to paraphrase a fairly unpopular figure on these forums, but I guess not that far because I'm going to do it: let he who is without fault cast the first stone. Or, in modern day language - unless your own life is perfectly flawless think very carefully about the kind of arrogant judgments pass over others, and give special consideration to the possibility that sometimes, the best thing you could possibly do is SHUT THE FUCK UP.

I am not Catholic. I find the idea of the infallibility of the pope to be impossible to comprehend rationally. I am pretty hurt in my heart at the way the catholic church has handled its scandals in the priesthood. And I think it is wrong for the catholic church to lecture the rest of the world on morality when they have dead rotting corpses of immorality rotting in their own house.

But...

I also wish the pope good health, and a speedy recovery. I believe that he is a man of passion and conviction. Some of it not so good, but not all of it. I believe many good things have been done through people that I don't always agree with. I am not willing to demonize or slander religions on the whole for the actions of specific people, nor will I ridicule or demonize faith because I don't understand faith in the way perhaps my religious neighbor might. And even if some of the most hate-filled mean-spirited anti-religious folks out there were right on nearly all of their bitter accusations against all men and women of faith, I would still not stoop so low as to act EXACTLY LIKE THE THING I SPOKE AGAINST. At least I wouldn't want to, and would feel deeply ashamed of myself if I ever did.

I'm not sure which makes me more heart-heavy or sick to my stomach - fundamentalists interpreting faith in hate-filled or ignorant ways, or "progressives" and "liberals" - the intellectually sophisticated and "enlightened" interpreting their own positions in hate-filled and ignorant ways.

Institutional religions of all kind have a lot of problems, corruption and dogma. But there are also a lot of good, honorable, loving, decent men and women of faith who find through those institutions something of value for their lives, and GOD BLESS THIS NATION THAT PROTECTS THE RIGHTS OF THOSE PEOPLE to do so every bit as it protects my rights not to do so.

In my world, the DU forums would be a place for people who believed in a progressive ideas to come together to think reflectively and compassionately about how to care for fellow human beings and make the world a better place. What I have found is that the DU forums are more often than not a place for religious bigotry and absolute hate-filled intolerance of faith, the likes of which I haven't seen since I escaped ultra-right wing fundamentalism years ago. You guys are every bit as bad as that - just on the opposite side of the spectrum, and that's a tragedy. :(

I don't recognize the authority of the pope, nor agree with his claims on most issues. Yet, I pray for the health and happiness of the pope - long life of joy and peace to him.

Sel

[soleft]

18. to sum up in a slightly shorter version

to be truly tolerant you have to tolerate the intolerant.

I'm not there yet, I have a difficult time when the intolerant are discriminating and trying to deny me human rights.

[Spider Jerusalem]

19. I don't think anyone on this thread has sprayed any venom...

as you put it. I don't wish the man ill, but I don't agree with him, either. And I'm sorry, but I have a hard time being tolerant of intolerance. Not only that, is seems that "tolerance" of beliefs which are antithetical to the precepts of liberalism only allows them to be perpetuated, and as such is ultimately self-defeating.

[Selwynn]

20. The only thing that is self-defeating..

Is demonstrating in yourself all the qualities of the people you are so against.

That is why, hard or not, compassion is the answer to compassionless people. Mercy is the answer to the Merciless. Love is the answer in the face of hate. It's not easy, but you know how I know that this true? Because it is the only thing that ever has ammounted in lasting positive change.

There is no one here who understands better how hard this attitude can be some times. I get extremely angry when I see injustice, because I get angry when I think of people being actively hurt by some idiots actions. But nothing good comes out of tapping into the same source of anger that fuels the idiot I mentioned. Nothing good comes of it. If we believe what we believe, then we ought to be called to something better than that.

[patcox2]

21. The number of catholics among those who developed those precepts

Is surprising.

There is some conflict between western religion and western liberalism.

But it is less than the conflict between most other cultures and religions and western liberalism.

Science itself developed in christian europe, and nowhere else on earth, invented by a priest, I beleive. You could look it up.

You perceive this antagonism between the church and liberalism, I do not.

Liberation theology was so antithetical to liberalism it was downright socialist.