Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

LA Times: Turk Compares U.S. to Hitler

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Latest Breaking News Donate to DU
 
autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 04:50 PM
Original message
LA Times: Turk Compares U.S. to Hitler
THE CONFLICT IN IRAQ

Turk Compares U.S. to Hitler

An official says the 'genocide' being committed in Iraq is the worst in human history.

From Reuters

ANKARA, Turkey The head of Turkey's parliamentary human rights group has accused Washington of genocide in Iraq and behaving worse than Adolf Hitler, in remarks that underscore the depth of Turkish opposition to U.S. policy in the region

<<snip>>

"Never in human history have such genocide and cruelty been witnessed. Such a genocide was never seen in the time of the pharaohs nor of Hitler nor of Mussolini," Italy's World War II-era fascist leader, Elkatmis said.

<<snip>>

A diplomat at the U.S. Embassy in Ankara said, "Such unfounded, inaccurate, exaggerated claims are not good for relations, especially at a time of strain when Turkish public opinion is so critical of what the United States is trying to do in Iraq."

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-tur...

(It's starting.)

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Zanti Regent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 04:53 PM
Response to Original message
1. The diplomat sees that Ann Coulter is getting her wish.
We ARE killing Iraqui Men, abusing their women and forcing their children into Xtianity.

Ann should be so excited at seeing her wishes come to pass!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. Please world speak out because we have no voice

In Amerika, one of our Media whores had the nerve to say that they looked for a soldier to talk in a negative way about the war and they could not find one.

I'm sure they could not find one to talk on TV.

I saw a segment about the wounded at Walter Reed. The soldier's face was burned so badly he could not move his lips. I believe they said that he had be operated on 28 times!

This war has got to end and the rest of the world will have to speak out and say that we have broken every rule in the book.

The Hague is too good for this jokers!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
genieroze Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #9
41. Go to Michael Moores site
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
illflem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
2. The US is bad
but nowhere near killing 7 million, give them four more years
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. This type of charge is bad for the U.S.
I posted what this rather influential Turkish politician said. Given that his party *supported* the invasion and tried to get the rest on board, this is particularly troubling.

This is the start, I am afraid, of an avalanche of charges against us. We're screwed in the world period. But of course, we don't need the world, do we? Oh, no, not our allies, not "old Europe," not the only country in the ME that supports us. No, we're special or as they say, the voters support the notion of "American Exceptionalism."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. ....Hitler had to take the first step also!
What country in the world approves of junior and his plans for democracy at the point of a gun?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #2
14. If Hitler wasn't Hitler until 11 million were murdered ...
Edited on Sat Nov-27-04 05:48 PM by TahitiNut
... then cancer isn't cancer until the patient dies, and there's not a damned thing medical science can do except try to prevent it? That's exactly the same "logic."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. Whoa,...now THAT post has resonance!!!
Very impactful statement there, TahitiNut.

I'll have to keep that one under my belt.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #21
29. Thank you.
Edited on Sat Nov-27-04 06:42 PM by TahitiNut
It takes me a while to distill this stuff in my skull and, as a lifelong "wordy nerd," I try hard to get pithy - often without success.

There're just too many things identical between the Busholinis and the Fascists of the 20th century to ignore. The Nazis and Italian Fascists exploited regional animosities. The Bavarians were the "South" of Germany; Sicily was the "South" of Italy. These regions were the heart of the "anti-intellectual" movement. The Nazis and Italian Fascists exploited religious animosities. Catholics were, in both countries, long habituated to a "siege mentality" as political control and societal control was eroded by Protestantism and secualrism. Both countries demonized homosexuals and Gypsies.

It's the same opening act. I'm not interested in sitting through the (re)play.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #29
37. Chiseling is difficult,...but SO IMPORTANT!!!
Chiseling all our knowledge down to simple human terms everyone can understand,...is a challenge that we must meet.

Being concise is still a challenge I seek to polish because it is necessary to make a difference in this very complicated and nuanced world in which we live.

When I see someone being simply,...precise,...I get very excited and inspired because,...I just know that,...we can communicate the very best of ourselves to the very best of the human spirit.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #37
49. Indeed.
There have been times when I've been, along with others, in that "zone" - "centered" - when language becomes easy, concise, and seminal. Would that those times were more frequent. And more common.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FreeCajun Donating Member (167 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #29
82. Don't forget the 5th column:
FOX news, the start of the annexation of Canada.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Delphinus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #21
68. Amen!
I'll second that!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #14
67. right on
> light bulb goes off! :think: :think: :think: :think:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Spiffarino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #2
32. The US isn't bad
...Bush and Co.* are bad. They are giving the US a bad reputation by association.

* Including the corporate whores and Republican shills in media
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #32
43. Exactly but we need to get used to the collective accusation!
It's like the red-blue state debate which I dislike so much except we're now all a 'red' state to the world. You and I, all of us, will be, are being tarred with the same brush. This is what this moron had done. I traveled in Europe for three months during Viet Nam. There was little overt hostility. It was a different time and the world was still close enough to WWII to have a tolerance point high enough to tolerate Viet Nam (what were the French going to say given Algeria?). Now it is different. We are the culprit. This post is just awful because it's a harbinger.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Spiffarino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #43
48. All good points
My contention was with the poster who said "the US is bad." I beg to differ, being one of 55+ million who tried to boot Bush.

I hope we Americans aren't tarred with the same big brush, but I think you're right...I fear it's already happening.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lucky Luciano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 03:01 AM
Response to Reply #48
57. I don't think so...
One thing many people in other countries are good at is separating politics and people. Americans are not so good at that and that is why the freeps paint the French one way or the RUssians one way during the cold war or all muslims are violent psychopaths...people in other countries have always been good to me despite my being American - even the French - they loved me and a nice lady let me stay at her place in Paris for a couple weeks when I was a poor college grad traveling around. I was in Egypt a year ago and I was treated very well. I was in Europe a month ago and I was treated very well - Spain, England, and Ireland were all kind to me. The southeast Asians were all good to me. They just hate b*sh - not us. Sites like www.sorryeverybody.com are also good to reinforce the fact that many Americans are good.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
VivaKerry Donating Member (609 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #32
54. After this last election, bush IS the american public
every last one of us. We are responsible. Yes, I believe the majority in this country wanted bush gone. But not enough to foil election fraud, intimidation, etc. These charges against us are directed at all of us. until we take to the streets en masse..we are condoning everything bush does.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
chenGOD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #54
66. Here's a story that will give you hope...
I teach English as s Second Language over here in Seoul. My grade 6 kids last week were talking about places to visit, and of course the US came up (Koreans obviously have a big relationship with the US). One kid said something like "oh no, America's a bad place", but another kid said "oh, it's not America, it's Bush who's bad". The rest of the class was in agreement after that (including the kid who spoke negatively of America). It's amazing how many kids over here can seperate the government from the people.




*for full disclosure, I'm a Canuckistanian, so I have no vested interest in portraying America in a positive/negative light.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Seabiscuit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #54
70. Yes, it's getting harder to make the distinction.
Of course, the populace in other countries can see the difference between Bushco and American citizens. And yes, they typically are still warm to average Americans abroad. But their patience has been pushed to the limits - how are they supposed to embrace us when our country as a whole has embraced Bushco not once but twice in four years?

Unless Americans abroad are openly critical of Bush, there will come a day when they *will* be tarred by the same brush.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #2
83. oh, so killing is a pass/fail depending on numbers to be obscene?
only until 7 million is reached is it something to worry about?
proportional ethics?

what exactly are you suggesting (and not just you). That as long as we are NOT QUITE as bad as hitler, its not right to point out similarities?

At what number does it become ok? 6,999,990? or is that ten innocent civilians shy?

my oh my.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
davhill Donating Member (854 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
3. Turks should be careful about using that word
After what they have done historically to the Greeks, Armenians and Arabs themselves.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
amber dog democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. and we should too
after the genocide of the American Indians.

A good place to start is ": Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee " by Dee Brown.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kenergy Donating Member (834 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. That's an excellent book. Heart breaking, but a good read
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Spiffarino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #15
33. It put me on the road
...to DU and a new ideal of democracy. America wasn't supposed to be about unjustified killing and conquest. It was about liberty, justice, freedom, and all that "crazy liburrul" stuff.

"Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee" opened my eyes to the reality that my government couldn't always be trusted to do the right thing and that it is every American's responsibility to see that justice prevails.

I'd like that it were required reading in every high school.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Malikshah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #3
26. Uh, how much do you know about the Ottoman Empire?
Just wondering, as your statement is so general it appears to be based in large part on legend and not necessarily on the facts of the case.

This is not to deny the Armenian genocide, nor the treatment of Greeks and Arabs historically in the Ottoman Empire--

When one actually looks into the events, though, the story is much less black and white than you appear to convey.

Don't even get me started on the highly romanticized Greek Revolt.

Thousands of Muslims massacred--but that's OK

Thousands of Turkish villagers massacred/died of starvation in Eastern anatolia, but that's OK.

C'mon folks, we're better than generalized statements.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Spiffarino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #26
34. OK, I'm intrigued
I love history, but I am stone dumb about the history of the Ottoman Empire. Are there any books, websites, etc., you would recommend?

:hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Malikshah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. Here are a few
Colin Imber, The Ottoman Empire (as well as numerous other works)
Heath Lowry, The Nature of the Early Ottoman State
Donald Quataert The Ottoman Empire, 1700-1922

Quataert, especially deals with the thorny issue of the late Ottoman Period.

Others like Malcolm Yapp, Stanford Shaw, Halil Inalcik, Bernard Lewis, and Jane Hathaway deal with other examples.

As for websites-- focus on the academic ones (.edu)-- the others are inherently suspect, agenda ridden from a variety of viewpoints and do not hold up to the criteria of the academic world for the most part.

As with anything in this world-- the issues of the late Ottoman Empire are not black and white. The C.U.P. (Committee for Union and Progress) which basically ran the show for the final years of the Ottoman Empire were complicit in the Armenian massacres. The context of the situation needs to be explored to understand what took place and to bring the guilty parties to the justice they so deserve.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Spiffarino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. Thanks
I can imagine what a Google search of "ottoman empire" and "armenian massacre" would bring up, and your point is well taken. I look forward to my next library trip.

I had an Armenian friend many years ago who despised any and all Turks. He told stories handed down from his parents and grandparents describing the horrors of the Armenian genocide. His was the only side I had ever heard. I think it necessary to get another point of view in order to gain perspective.

Be well, and many thanks for the information.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Malikshah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. There are sides, yes
But the Armenians were massacred and those that survived were forcibly marched southwards

There were Turkish muslim villages that were decimated as well, but in terms of sheer numbers etc. the Armenians of Eastern Anatolia bore the brunt for some of their leaders' working with the Russians. As ever-- the civilians pay the price.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EdGy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #42
69. genocide of muslims in the balkans
don't forget Death and Exile: The Ethnic Cleansing of Ottoman Muslims, 1821-1922 by Justin McCarthy

This book documents very well how the much of the Muslim population of the Balkans were systematically massacred and expelled, with the approval of the "christian" west.

McCarthy argues, persuasively I think, that some Turks learned an important lesson here: To have a viable state you needed some kind of ethnic/religious homogeneity; that the accepted way to do that was through expulsions and massacres; therefore if the Armenians were in the way, Turkey should just proceed in the accepted European way...

As for the very European nature of this kind of thing, we only have to fast forward a few decades to the most European of European states, Germany, to see how deeply embedded in European culture genocide was (is?). And I don't think I have to rehash the US policy of actual genocide against native indigenous peoples, in the name of "spreading civilization and freedom."

Which of course does not justify genocide. But it explains how and why the United States so gladly and easily goes around the world claiming to act in the name of "morals" while perpetrating crimes against humanity. Go back to the genocide against native americans. look at the press coverage. substitute Iraqis or Muslims for indians. Same picture.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Malikshah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #69
72. Thanks, I'd forgotten to list that one
McCarthy does a good job as well in doing an overview of the Ottoman Empire (in a textbook style survey-but good nonetheless)

Yes the Romantics of Europe can eat shit in my book for ignoring the massacres of Muslims and promoting the image of the Terrible Turk.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #38
52. Agreed--look at the academic sites and sources.
Edited on Sun Nov-28-04 12:00 AM by igil
But don't think they're unbiased or the authors don't have agendas circumscribed by politics beyond their control.

I watched a faculty position funded by the Armenian government and American-Armenians rejected by a research university. The Turkish government told the Ottoman/Turkish specialists that if the faculty position was endowed, they could kiss off any trips to Turkey for them or their students, any Turkish funding, and exchanges with Turkish faculty would become a lot harder. The professor that led the charge to kill the endowed chair is in your list, and this is what he told a faculty-student committee in closed session. That history department voted the endowed chair down. A year or two later, guess who was on a sabbatical, in Turkey, with Turkish funding?

It was the same in Russian depts.: criticize the USSR before 1985, and your career suffered.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Malikshah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #52
73. True case
But also look at the case of Heath Lowry and his position
As well as countless others--

The Turkish govt is not innocent, but by far the most cases involved Greek and Armenian groups protesting any position in Turkish history/Ottoman history that is linked in any way shape or form with Turkish money (ex pat or otherwise)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BuddhaGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #38
71. Heath Lowry is a Genocide denier
and the Genocide is not a "legend."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Malikshah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #71
74. Lowry is not a denier
and the genocide is indeed not a legend. Never said it was.

However, there is more to the story than the blanket statements of the above post refer to. Sorry, this simply proves my point that more study needs to be done.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cheney Killed Bambi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #3
35. I couldn't agree more
What the Turks did to the Armenians during WWI was one of the worst crimes of the 20th Century.

If you're interested in learning more about the genocide of the Armenians, read this:

http://www.endgenocide.org/genocide/armenia.htm
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 03:20 AM
Response to Reply #35
59. Bush must be right up there for the 21st century, though
The century is young, and a mere 100K (maybe 120K if you include Afghanistan) won't keep the lead for long. But Bush has plenty of time to pad that total.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #3
78. Fallacy: "Poisoning the well."?
:shrug: (A kind of ad hominem.)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
amber dog democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 05:07 PM
Response to Original message
4. Give it time - Chimp is just getting started.

Since George W Chimp is now the Reich's Chancellor, we may be entering upon a new era of 21 Cent Warsaw Ghettos - so that Democracy continues on the march.
Not since LBJ and Nixon have we inflicted so much death and misery abroad.

Maybe we'll have a Stalingrad or two while we are at it.

Not my president - this is not done in my name.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #4
55. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Lucky Luciano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 03:11 AM
Response to Reply #55
58. Point taken,
but see Tahitinut's post #14 (?)

The point is that you want to catch shrub before he descends into the lunacy that would eventually be on par with Hitler. He is fully capable of it and that is what people mean when they compare b*sh to hitler - only that he is capable of killing millions of people if he is not checked. He is steadily working on it. As you often hear, "The first million is the hardest to get." Wait a minute! That refers to money! D'OH!!!! I guess it could apply here too.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 05:48 AM
Response to Reply #55
64. Even Hitler started somewhere.
To compare b*sh to the full-blown genocidal Hitler near the end of WWII is patently ridiculous.

To compare him to the early, emergent Hitler is quite appropriate, however.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #64
77. Yup. See my little post at ...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
indigobusiness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
7. NOMINATED...Where do I board the Peacetrain?
Edited on Sat Nov-27-04 05:11 PM by indigobusiness
Or join a relief agency?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bahrbearian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 05:21 PM
Response to Original message
10. The Turks would know!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ima Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
11. They are
still mad, that the US wouldn't let them take over northern Iraq.


Talk about the pot, calling the kettle black.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pretzel4gore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. maybe they get a better, closer look
at what the US is doing...remember, the US military budget is 1/2 of the entire planet's....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ima Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #13
27. Re
maybe they get a better, closer look.


Yes, I'm quite sure they do, but that does not negate one bit, what they have done in the past. And also what they would be doing in northern Iraq, if allowed.


I am, in no way, condoning what we have done in Iraq, it's despicable.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ima Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. good guys?
There are many historical links between Turkey and Germany that illuminate the present policy in Turkey. For instance, the origin of the party Millietci Hareket Partisi, now part of the Turkish government, can be traced back to the second world war when the Nazi government financed the formation of a Nazi group within the Turkish army. One of its earliest and most enthusiastic members was a young officer named Alparslan Turkesh, who went on to lead the ultra-nationalist Millietci Hareket Partisi from its inception in the sixties until 1997 when he died.

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:soXoOXeQ8xoJ:www.afs...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pretzel4gore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #27
46. prior to the war
i was listening to a radio program about that area of the world, an interview with a long term journalist who seemed to have a detached, professional approach to the job....saddam was no more, or less, ruthless then he had to be to survive, and the same was true about most of the leadership in that area...the journalist went on to say, and this was quite jarring when spoken aloud, was that the local political gangsters who held sway in the area around iraq looked with amazement upon the west, britain and US mainly, because the level of western depravity was at times almost unlimited...they didn't fear or respect the west so much as consider it a mindless force that needed no reasoning to do anything, which sometimes was good but just as often beyond anyone's belief (i'm paraphrasing what the journo said, so you must take this with grain of salt)...it struck me that we think of ourselves as the height of civilized behavior, yet the 'hard men' as that journalist called the saddams of the area, thought we were so depraved even they were often shocked by what our people did...
and of course the turks are right there in the middle of the mess...and don't forget our mass media spoonfeeds us pablum like news that's often nonsense if not put into context (which cnn/fox etc never ever do)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
liberalmuse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
12. Isn't it nice to be compared to Hitler?
Bush may surpass Hitler, Stalin and Mussolini by the time he's through.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
snippy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. I have always found it telling that Karl Rove was the first person
to compare Bush to Hitler. Of course Rove did it in an admiring and complimentary way.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Rzrbk Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. I agree, Davhill
The Turks history of abuse isn't the best. Being called a "Hitler" by them isn't exactly accurate criticism.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #18
47. Unless you think in terms of expert knowledge of the subject.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
danielleengen Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #12
20. Very good point....
The only thing missing in our case is the deliberate torturing. But all in all, it's not so farfetched that when all this is through, there will be more than or equal to the number of casualties resulting from Hitler's reign. God if only someone could say that to Bush. I really sit here and wonder, what the hell would he think if someone told him that?

And you know what else I wonder, how in God's name does he sleep at night in his warm, expensive bed knowing that when he wakes up in the morning, 5 more soldiers are gonna be dead and 10 more soldiers are gonna be permanently wounded??

It's just so sick. How does money and oil really mask everything else that's going on in spite of it? How do these people live with themselves knowing what they're supporting?

I guess these are questions that will torment me as long as I live, because I have yet to hear a valid answer to them...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Haven't both invoked God to rationalize mass murder?
With respect to how those people live with themselves, I think they fully believe in their own pricelessness and righteousness above all other human beings.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
2Design Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. we are torturing - we did not allow any male 15 -45 to leave a city
we were bombing

we shot and killed anyone who tried to escape if they were male and got a few women and children too

then said it was the women and childrens own fault for not leaving - yea leaving their men to murdered -

the usa is a firing squad - using bombs instead so they don't have to look at their killing

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #23
44. Precisely!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jokerman93 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #20
28. Try to understand
He is of a different class. The men and women dying in this war are chattel - on all sides.

The death count is about as morally meaningful to him as a stock market report.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
They_LIHOP Donating Member (151 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #20
51. I imagine their self-justification goes something like this...
"Well, our point man on the earth's remaining available petroleum resources, Matthew Simmons, has informed us that the phenomenon commonly known as 'Peak Oil' is either imminent, or it is actually here. In other words, the economics of Oil is soon to change dramatically - the price will begin an upward trend that will NEVER EVER be reversed. Our cronies from the state of Texas are in a unique position to exploit this situation for all it's worth, and if we play our cards right, our beloved Lone Star State will become the unquestioned center of power in the world, if not the universe. Boy will Mom and Dad be proud that we fostered this glorious day.

The United States' financial house of cards is built on the petro-dollar. Old Europe has put together a monetary unit to challenge the hegemony of said petro-dollar, and had made deals with Saddam Hussein to develop Iraq's oil fields. This meant that, w/o US intervention there, the possibility that oil would soon be traded in the Euro instead of or at least in addition to the dollar meant that Europe would soon be getting much richer, and the United States MUCH MUCH poorer as a country.

Furthermore, the United State's entire infrastructure is based on the use of petroleum products, and without them (especially the crude petroleum itself), the entire society basically collapses to abject ruin. There would be no fertilizers for growing food (although to be totally accurate, this is mostly made from natural gas, but Iraq has that as well), no tractors to till the fields, no trucks (and less trains) to bring the food to market. There would be no airplanes to carry people or products to destinations in the quick way society is accustomed to, and some products require. There would be no heat for our homes and businesses, no lights, and no combustion-powered automobiles. In short, the masses would be freezing, starving, and in the dark.

It would seem almost axiomatic that, of course through no fault of any of OURS, once peak oil hits, oil will, by definition, be too scarce to use for anything apart from keeping the wheels of our existing society turning. And since, to convert our entire infrastructure to alternative sources of energy would demand summoning political will even greater than that needed by FDR to motivate the nation into working together to win WWII... And since, to even make such an sweeping infrastructural change (esp. without universal and unimaginable sacrifices) is beyond today's technological capabilities... And since, to even scratch the surface of such a project would require an incredibly wide-scale, all-encompassing national program, the very idea of which we 'philosophically' despise, for a whole host of reasons... And since, to even mention to the sheeple of the USA that "HUGE sacrifices to the entire country's standard of living, along with MASSIVE human die-off, are foregone conclusions at this point, and there is absolutely nothing anyone can do about it" would result in a catastrophic dip in our popularity ratings, not to mention our campaign donations from our Wall Street cronies... And since, to pull such a thing off would require a national unity that we've set about fighting against for decades now...

Because of all these factors, and many more, we've decided it's in the best interests of the USA that we go ahead and secure as much of the world remaining petroleum reserves as is physically possible, and let the chips and bodies fall where they may.

Given that we were re-elected, it is apparent to US that the majority of Americans thus supports the use of our military forces to secure as much of the worlds natural resources for our own consumption as possible. And, if they had all the facts before them that we now know, they would both prefer to avoid making such sacrifices AND understand WHY we absolutely HAD to bullshit them all along about what we were really doing in Iraq.

Bottom-line, as it now stands, if the USA didn't do something to secure considerable petroleum riches of Iraq, both to keep the EU from getting it, and to divert a large portion of it to our own use, it is entirely possible that within twenty years, her entire economy would collapse, her transportation infrastructure would be little more than millions of tons of rusting scrap metals, and in all likelihood 10's, if not 100's, of millions of the citizens of the USA would perish due to starvation and/or exposure.

Furthermore, all throughout history, responsible leaders have responded to potentially catastrophic threats to their citizenry (be they due to hostile enemies, or depleted natural resources within their territories) by taking ACTION, quite often in secret, to mitigate the problem using military force. Hell, the Europeans who now fight US hegemony most publically NOW are the very same ones who lived by such a policy of 'whatever it takes' for the bulk of their existence. Who are these former Colonial Powers to tell US what is acceptable behaviour when it comes to OUR Nation's survival? What a bunch of hypocrites!

In other words, I'd say "Yeah, it's worth 1,200 soldiers, and pretty much ANY number of innocent Iraqi's, to maintain both dollar hegemony, and the free flow of oil to our country. Once the People are ready to hear the truth, once they truly understand why all this had to be done, and more importantly what the alternative clearly is, they will come to regard us as the brilliant, patriotic saviours of The Greatest Nation The World Has Ever Known - save, of course, the unappreciative, bleeding-heart, candy-ass, librul pinko commies who hate the USA, and the freedom for which she stands, and by then we'll have burned their dead, broken bodies for electricity anyways, SO ..."

Now, I'm not saying I AGREE, but, I DO think this is how they justify their actions to themselves ... since you asked ;)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
VegasWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
16. Yes, but Hitler could write a book, bush can't even read one. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
peterh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. 
Im all for giving the twit a chance to prove his writing skills.while in prison. ;-)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
VegasWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. I'm all for giving bush a chance in jail, but I still don't think he
Edited on Sat Nov-27-04 06:21 PM by VegasWolf
can write a book, even a children's one.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #25
31. It seems he loves the pictures so......
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sara Beverley Donating Member (989 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
24. And rightly so. At least Hitler was honest about what he was doing, the
US "pretends" to be working for Iraqis' freedom and democracy. Of course, we have to kill most of them before they get the message and certainly it is really helpful to utterly destroy their beautiful architecture and infrastructure, make sure they have little clean water, little electricity, and few hospitals to care for their war wounded civilians. We are doing just great!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cynthia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #24
36. lol
:)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #24
40. *sniffle*
:cry:

I NEVER defined "freedom" that way. I never approved of such slaughter of those words,...or the neo-murder-cons slaughtered others hearts and minds and bodies in order to impose their will upon others. Praying for a plague against the neo-murder-cons is mercy,...in my heart and mind.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 08:32 PM
Response to Original message
45. Two words: "Torture Flights"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
VegasWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 10:48 PM
Response to Original message
50. Bush says its been another good day in
Fallujah!


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
alexisfree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 12:26 AM
Response to Original message
53. Turks be careful Bush & Co will come after you next for WMD
Edited on Sun Nov-28-04 12:28 AM by alexisfree
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lucky Luciano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 02:54 AM
Response to Original message
56. Well, b*sh
Edited on Sun Nov-28-04 03:21 AM by Lucky Luciano
has not outdone hitler yet, but he is working on it.

The Turkish guy might also be forgetting about the 1.5 million Armenians his countrymen killed in 1922. We have not done anything like that under shrub's leadership yet. Tell him to come back in 2008 when his prophesies come true.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 03:33 AM
Response to Reply #56
61. U.S. may well have killed that many Africans and Indians, though
Back in the 1800's. Probably way more. I would be careful about getting in a numbers debate with Turkey.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lucky Luciano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 04:05 AM
Response to Reply #61
62. I thought this was a discussion about b*sh...
also, there were many countries that were complicit in teh crimes you spoke of...France, Spain, Portugal, the Dutch before the nineteenth century...after the nineteenth century we singlehandedly did in the North American Indians and the whole slave thing is a clear stain as well. The aforementioned countries went on to do their own brutal things elsewhere until they all collectively suffered so much during two world wars that they no longer had the will to oppress with the same viciousness...though it is still in them.

No powerful nation has ever been that way in a purely benevolent fashion. Basically, if a country is powerful, they have done bad things. One of the things I often wonder is whether it is possible to be a leading country that is purely benevolent. In this day and age it seem like pure fantasy...I cannot enivison how it could occur. That was really pessimistic...oh well.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 04:35 AM
Response to Reply #62
63. You brought up the Armenian genocide in your post
That is all I was responding to. But, it is true that most human populations have something in their past that wouldn't bear scrutiny. We have to be careful not to use that as a reason to ignore the crimes of the present though. After all, we can try to effect the present (and the future, I suppose), but not the past.

But, the discussion was originally about Bush, and I reiterate what I said in an earlier post - he is on track to have the highest body count of any leader of this young century.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 03:26 AM
Response to Original message
60. Does the country exist
that could criticize ours without having its own war crimes to live down?

Perhaps we should start grading the legitimacy of foreign criticism based on how long ago that nation was guilty of similar actions?

Or, by how many they killed compared to the Iraqi death toll so far?

C'mon, folks. We all know that BushCo is guilty as charged, even if this Turk employed a little dramatic license by saying it's worse than Hitler. Innocent people are being badly mistreated and dying with our government's approval...That's all we need to know to be outraged. No yardstick required.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
65. Here we go...ignition...middle east...
Turkey supposed to be our friend... they are now on the list of American haters...Any country left that is not on this list? Oh Poland yeah ... don't forget Poland...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
euphrasie Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
75. Okay, seriously, Hitler comparisons make me sick
Hitler was honest about what he was doing? What? That is completely untrue. He was NEVER honest about anything. Take the T4 euthanasia program; the families were told that their relative had died overnight and been cremated. Nazi Germany was incredibly secretive. More secretive than you think the Bush administration is. And, believe it or not, way more oppressive.

Ban me if you want, but I had to speak out. I HATE Hitler comparisons. My family lived in Nazi Germany, and it is incredibly disrespectful to them, as well as to anyone else who suffered under the Third Reich, to compare anyone to Hitler who isn't short of deserving it. By the way, my requirement for that isn't just starting a preemptive war. If that were the case, a lot of world leaders would be Hitler.

If anyone WAS Hitler, it was Saddam. I have no qualms about saying that. He not only committed systematic genocide of one particular group, but he killed about 2 million people. The History Channel regularly compares him to Hitler. You say that he was only ruthless when he had to be? Are you KIDDING me? Tell that to the Kurds!

How the hell do you think Holocaust victims feel when they read this crap?

*waits to be banned for showing one tiny bit of rationale* I'm not coming back to read replies either. I've said what needed to be said. Comparing Bush to Hitler? You people make me SICK.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #75
76. The point of sharing this article is that the tone * has set in the ME
By posting this I do not endorse the comparison directly. On the other hand, it is quite appropriate to note when others make these comments. It is a harbinger. Our actions in the ME are seen by even those who traditionally favor us as abhorrent. They dilute their point logically by bringing Hitler into it. They broaden their reach rhetorically however. It's also an emotional response to something that is just crazy.

The larger point should not be missed: Bush is a horror, the horror on the planet right now. While he is not committing genocide against a particular group, he is engaged in flagrant disregard for world safety. We are facing a flu pandemic. Is the US prepared? No. Is the US leading the world in preparedness? No. Do you know how many people the World Health Organization estimates will perish in the next flu pandemic (long overdue according to WHO)? 7 Million Thats right, 7 million people. It could go as high as the last pandemic (where we lacked the science and technology we have now), 20 million. In addition, Bush is intent on ignoring global warming and impending eco-catastrophes. Entire cultures will be wiped out by just what we know is happening now -- melting of the polar cap. Disease will be rampant when this happens due to increased temperature. Many will die from epidemics and possible pandemics.

I say, Bush is potentially the most dangerous world leader in history because his negligence and stupidity are in place at a time when the highest order of intelligence and leadership is required. We face global threats from the mismanagement of the fucking planet. Everyone is at risk this time. Think about that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #75
79. Rather than stifle any comparisons to fascist atrocities ...
... which can only assure their unannounced ascendancy again, those who've been most affected and directly involved in such historical atrocities would be better served by eternal vigilance to the harbingers of any recurrence.

Silence only serves the agenda of the stealthy oppressor-wannabe: the power-addicted and predatory. When sheep close their ears to even the first or second cry of "Wolf!" they're sure to be eaten. Indeed, the deliberate falsification of such cries is intended to deafen the vigilant. (How many times over the past 20 years has the extreme right hurled the 'fascist' epithet at the left? Thousands? Millions?)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bhikkhu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #75
80. A few points of difference, and you are sick?
History often makes me angry, but what makes me sick is seeing it repeated in my own time, and seeing otherwise reasonable people unable or unwilling to draw parallels. Human behaviors aren't terribly complicated. Plain and simple - where we are today is where the Germans were in the thirties. Perhaps if we recognize that, speak out, open our eyes, we will be able to avoid the fate of Hitler's Germany.

If the desire to avoid such things makes people sick, let them be sick.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
symbolman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
81. Time to dust off my old animation
"Bush is Not a Nazi - So Stop Saying That.."

http://66.230.230.110/geeklog/public_html/staticpages/i...

Don't forget to take a look at our DVD "Electile Dysfunction" while there! It's a Premuim at Buzzflash.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Sat Dec 16th 2017, 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Latest Breaking News Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC