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Fitrakis & Wasserman discuss Ohio's referendum electronic "defeats"

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AtLiberty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 10:14 AM
Original message
Fitrakis & Wasserman discuss Ohio's referendum electronic "defeats"
Has American Democracy died an electronic death in Ohio 2005's referenda defeats?

by Bob Fitrakis and Harvey Wasserman
November 11, 2005
Free Press


While debate still rages over Ohio's stolen presidential election of 2004, the impossible outcomes of key 2005 referendum issues may have put an electronic nail through American democracy.

Once again, the Buckeye state has hosted an astonishing display of electronic manipulation that calls into question the sanctity of America's right to vote, and to have those votes counted in this crucial swing state.

The controversy has been vastly enhanced due to the simultaneous installation of new electronic voting machines in nearly half the state's 88 counties, machines the General Accounting Office has now confirmed could be easily hacked by a very small number of people.

Last year, the US presidency was decided here. This year, a bond issue and four hard-fought election reform propositions are in question...

http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2005/15...
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Stevepol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
1. I guess this is very much to be expected. VERY HIGHLY RECOMMENDED!
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MelissaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 11:03 AM
Response to Original message
2. snip

The Dispatch was somehow dead accurate on Issue One, and then staggeringly wrong on Issues Two through Five. Sadly, this impossible inconsistency between Ohio's most prestigious polling operation and these final official referendum vote counts have drawn virtually no public scrutiny.

...snip

And thus the possible explanations for the staggering defeats of Issues Two through Five boil down to two: either the Dispatch polling---dead accurate for Issue One---was wildly wrong beyond all possible statistical margin of error for Issues 2-5, or the electronic machines on which Ohio and much of the nation conduct their elections were hacked by someone wanting to change the vote count.

If the latter is true, it can and will be done again, and we can forget forever about the state that has been essential to the election of every Republican presidential candidate since Lincoln.

And we can also, for all intents and purposes, forget about the future of American democracy.
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Melissa G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
3. Rec number 5 to Greatest
and posted on daily news thread which also needs some votes..
you know what to do!
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yowzayowzayowza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. Rec #10 ...
fer a 2nd star.
:kick:
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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 11:57 AM
Response to Original message
4. this is the perfect one to crack-
there is no person here to be smeared, called sore loserman. the issue at hand is not a person, but clean elections, period.


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Marthe48 Donating Member (473 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
5. Marietta Times had a poll day after the election
Do you think Ohio elections still need reforms. 61% said YES! You can leave comments, so I mentioned black box whammy.

This is a Republican enclave and if 61% of the respondants think Ohio needs reforms, why the heck didn't the reforms pass?
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DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. because Ohio is corrupt
The people in power, Republicans, want to stay in power.
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Mr_Jefferson_24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
7. The citizenry of...
Edited on Sat Nov-12-05 12:49 PM by Mr_Jefferson_24
...Ohio needs to wake up and smell the corruption. They should demand a re-vote by paper ballots for these unbelievable results.
This would be the surest way to show how stolen elections were.
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mom cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
9. The skew is even more blatant than before! This must be challenged or
democracy is dead as a doornail.
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
10. It only seems to matter to election reform advocates, even RON officials
have said the Dispatch polls were inaccurate (but then again they never believed there was theft only dirty tricks in the '04 election)

Ohio is f#@*ed up. We need other states to abolish voting machines and get momentum to spread across country until it is forced to include Ohio.
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
11. I can't bear to read the article yet -- I knew Ohio was being stolen
while watching the returns last Tuesday.

I worked the phone banks for Reform Ohio Now last weekend and had 71 numbers for Columbus. I reached 40+ people and everyone single one said that they were determined to vote. 32 said they would vote 'yes'; 8 said that they preferred to keep their vote private; 4 were undecided; and exactly 1 said she was voting 'no'. Issue 2 (vote by mail) should especially have been a landslide. Voter turnout must have been BIG by comparison to other 'off year' elections - and yet I wound up in the argument here with someone from Ohio who wanted to blame low voter turnout and the Ohio Democratic Party for not getting behind the issues.

I was on a conference call with Paul Hackett last Sunday and asked him if he was aware of the possibility of electronic voting fraud and he, essentially, said no.

I am still feeling sick from all of the DU posts who took wins in VA, NJ, and CA as evidence that there is no voting fraud in the US -- that we only cry 'voting fraud' when we lose. That is bullshit.

I've been watching for posts from Autorank -- and have been hoping his absence means that he is on the case...

I will be back on topic soon - but :puke: :puke: :puke:
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
12. I am just ill over this...
I went to a 'Strickland for Governor of Ohio' meeting this morning just so I could ask him what he plans to do about Voting Fraud in his race....after all he is going to be running against Blackwell (more than likely)....the Prince of corruption and stolen elections.

I also said that I am sick and tired of working my ass off for candidates/issues that don't understand the Voting Fraud in this state. He told me that he understood how I felt....clueless. I told him I wanted this to be an ISSUE OF THE CAMPAIGN.

I hate Ohio....I want to leave.
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mikelewis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Bullshit... If we don't change it, if we cut and run...
who is going to fix this nightmare of a state? We don't need to leave, these people need to be exposed and incarcerated. Tampering with an election is a felony crime and punishable by a prison term and severe fines. We need to work to make sure that happens. The only way to take these guys down is to keep forcing them to steal election after election. Eventually, the people will catch on. Even if it takes 4 cycles or 8 cycles, people will catch on. Their mistakes keep getting worse, their arrogance guarantees their failure. Have you ever heard the old saying, "Oh what a tangled web we weave when at first we practice to decieve?" Imagine the web they have to keep spinning. Eventually, they will screw up and we'll nail them to the wall but only if good citizens are still here to weild the hammer. Don't leave Ohio, start swinging.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. I know there has to be someone in Blackwell's office that
knows what went on 11-2-04. I keep thinking someone will have loose lips....or guilt will get to them...especially now that our country is in such a mess.

I can last one more year...I want to see Jennifer Brunner take the Sec'y of State post. She has stepped down as Judge to run. She knows more about Election Law than anyone in the state. She would make this state proud.

Maybe we need to find a disgruntled Diebold employee that might know something.

Let's fight 'em.
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PATRICK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-05 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. I think there are but
the whistleblowers are barely remmebered here because NO DA on any level is taking them under their wing, no FBI agent, no top political leader, no protection, no process, no outcomes. You can write a book when you lose your job and are persecuted. You can be shot and vanish down the same memory hole. The fact that the new cheating takes so few people(and fewer who understand the process they are involved in completely) while the blatant traditional manpower operations have mostly, even when out in the open, been done with impunity, is not a good sign for hope.

Settling scores by divisions at the top, the pressure of a grand jury, the support of the Law. Those deliver(in law results) compared to even the most widely circulated whistleblowing.
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babsbunny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. I was ill on election night!
I knew issues 2,3,4, and 5 were suppose to pass (reform Ohio) and didn't know much about issue 1, which Taft was very pleased about it's passing........... If Mayor Coleman used this platform of getting rid of Diebold, in his run for Governor, would he win?
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Couldn't hurt. I don't know that much about
Coleman. Has he done a good job in Columbus? Anyone who would advocate for paper ballots and hand counts would be someone I would work for!
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texpatriot2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
13. "The Woodward and Bernstein of election fraud"
isn't that what the Rev. Jesse Jackson called them
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AtLiberty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 05:21 PM
Response to Original message
14. Thanks for keeping the #1 issue alive!
KICK THE DAMN MONEY CHANGERS OUT OF OUR TEMPLE!!!
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PATRICK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
20. Reading other posts
it seems to me people have reflecxively stuck their necks out without the proper poll supports and examining in this case sound traditional and sadly reflexive reasons why people may have wanted reform then blanched at the heavily worded props in the booth. In fact the uniformity of the nays on the already ad opposed 2 through 5 would show an unfortunate typical response to the process, not the ideas behind the props. Experience about the reflex response to prop wording and controversy is one thing. The other is only haviung a pre-poll in an off election year to make your quick stand on. Not only is it dangerously kneejerk but where can be the support and followthrough without proper exit polling?

I think well intentioned reformers have put at risk the main premise, which fortunately is getting some steam even from an unjustifiable claim here because the system cheaters find the topic radioactive. It is not a case of voters suddenly opposing the ideas, but the mechanics of getting through the ballot shock, of which this might become a classic, not unique, example. I am not one to do anything except pose the uncomfortable question which since has been added to by Ohioans working on the system and witnessing the ballot shock syndrome, and experiencing it themselves. Whether one tried hgeroically to cope with the wording and its possible insufficiencies or reacted in panic or anger to the appearance of the text itself, the results would likely doom anything except the common agreemnt in the press that 1 was a good thing. In fact, the tragedy may be they went in to support reform but only could trust themselves on one. The others had no chance. A further tagedy would be for activists and the lighter weight pundits to damage their credibility on this one. A further irony might be if someone actually did tweak the ballots and can hide behind the lack of foundation for this case.

Anyone with basic experience of the dangerous reefs propositions must navigate know it is not just about adequate consideration of the content or even massive guns supporting it. The Right gets away with kneejerk shoutouts all the time, and maybe we are getting some benefit over these locked away vote counts anyway, on principle. But that does not mean the truth must be shoved aside and that there is no price to be paid for error.
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