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rightfoot Donating Member (41 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-29-05 10:17 PM
Original message
Optical scan machines hacked in Florida
(Is it true that memory cards are used in optical scan machines? I thought they were only for touchscreens and the scan machines use paper ballots. --rf. (note: permission to reprint granted with link)

Tallahassee, FL: "Are we having fun yet?"

This is the message that appeared in the window of a county optical scan machine, startling Leon County Information Systems Officer Thomas James. Visibly shaken, he immediately turned the machine off.

Diebold's opti-scan (paper ballot) voting system uses a curious memory card design, offering penetration by a lone programmer such that standard canvassing procedures cannot detect election manipulation.

The Diebold optical scan system was used in about 800 jurisdictions in 2004. Among them were several hotbeds of controversy: Volusia County (FL); King County (WA); and the New Hampshire primary election, where machine results differed markedly from hand-counted localities.

http://www.bbvforums.org/forums/messages/1954/5921.html

New regs: Counting paper ballots forbidden

Most states prohibit elections officials from checking on optical scan tallies by examining the paper ballots. In Washington, Secretary of State Sam Reed declared such spontaneous checkups to be "unauthorized recounts" and prohibited them altogether. New Florida regulations will forbid counting paper ballots, even in recounts, except in highly unusual circumstances. Without paper ballot hand-counts, the hacks demonstrated below show that optical-scan elections can be destroyed in seconds.

A little man living in every ballot box

The Diebold optical scan system uses a dangerous programming methodology, with an executable program living inside the electronic ballot box. This method is the equivalent of having a little man living in the ballot box, holding an eraser and a pencil. With an executable program in the memory card, no Diebold opti-scan ballot box can be considered "empty" at the start of the election.

The Black Box Voting team proved that the Diebold optical scan program, housed on a chip inside the voting machine, places a call to a program living in the removable memory card during the election. The demonstration also showed that the executable program on the memory card (ballot box) can easily be changed, and that checks and balances, required by FEC standards to catch unauthorized changes, were not implemented by Diebold -- yet the system was certified anyway.

The Diebold system in Leon County, Florida succumbed to multiple attacks.

Ion Sancho: Truth and Excellence in Elections

Leon County Elections Supervisor Ion Sancho and Information Systems Officer Thomas James had already implemented security procedures in Leon County far exceeding the norm in elections management. This testing, done by a team of researchers including Black Box Voting, independent filmmakers, security expert Dr. Herbert Thompson, and special consultant Harri Hursti, was authorized by Mr. Sancho, in an unusual act of openness and courage, to identify any remaining holes in Leon County's election security.

The results of the memory card hack demonstration will assist elections supervisors throughout the U.S., by emphasizing the critical importance of accounting for each and every memory card and protecting access.

Findings:

Computer expert Harri Hursti gained control over Leon County memory cards, which handle the vote-reporting from the precincts. Dr. Herbert Thompson, a security expert, took control of the Leon County central tabulator by implanting a trojan horse-like script.

Two programmers can become a lone programmer, says Hursti, who has figured out a way to control the entire central tabulator by way of a single memory card swap, and also how to make tampered polling place tapes match tampered central tabulator results. This more complex approach is untested, but based on testing performed May 26, Hursti says he has absolutely no reason to believe it wouldn't work.

Three memory card tests demonstrated successful manipulation of election results, and showed that 1990 and 2002 FEC-required safeguards are being violated in the Diebold version 1.94 opti-scan system.

Three memory card hacks

1. An altered memory card (electronic ballot box) was substituted for a real one. The optical scan machine performed seamlessly, issuing a report that looked like the real thing. No checksum captured the change in the executable program Diebold designed into the memory card.

2. A second altered memory card was demonstrated, using a program that was shorter than the original. It still worked, showing that there is also no check for the number of bytes in the program.

3. A third altered memory card was demonstrated with the votes themselves changed, showing that the data block (votes) can be altered without triggering any error message.

How to "Roll over the odometer" in Diebold optical scan machines

Testing also showed that integer overflow checks do not exist in this system, making it possible to stuff the ballot box without triggering any error message. This would be like pre-loading minus 100 votes for Tom and plus 100 votes for Rick (-100+100=ZERO) -- changing the candidate totals without changing the overall number of votes.

A more precise comparison would be this: The odometer on a car rolls over to zero after 999,999. In the Diebold system tested, the rollover to zero happens at 65,536 votes. By pre-loading 65,511 votes for a candidate, after 25 real votes appear (65,511 plus 25 = 65,536) the report "rolls over" so that the candidate's total is ZERO.

This manipulation can be balanced out by preloading votes for candidate "A" at 65,511 and candidate "B" at 25 votes -- producing an articifial 50-vote spread between the candidates, which will not be obvious after the first 25 votes for candidate "A" roll over to zero. The "negative 25" votes from the odometer rollover counterbalance the "plus 25" votes for the other candidates, making the total number of votes cast at the end of the day exactly equal to the number of voters.

While testing the hack on the Leon County optical scan machine, Hursti was stunned to find that pre-stuffing the ballot box to "roll over the odometer" produced no error message whatsoever.

Simple tweaks to pass L&A test and survive zero tape

Though the additional tweaks were not demonstrated at the Leon County elections office, Hursti believes that the integor overflow hack can easily be covered up on the "zero tape" produced at the beginning of the election. The programming to cover up manipulations during the "logic & accuracy test" is even simpler, since the program allows you to specify on which reports (and, if you like, date and time of day) the manipulation will affect.

The testing demonstrated, using the actual voting system used in a real elections office, that Diebold programmers developed a system that sacrifices security in favor of dangerously flexible programming, violating FEC standards and calling the actions of ITA testing labs and certifiers into question.

In the case of Leon County, inside access was used to achieve the hacks, but there are numerous ways to introduce the hacks without inside access. Outside access methods will be described in the technical report to be released in mid-June.

Security concerns

Putting an executable program into removable memory card "ballot boxes" -- and then programming the opti-scan chip to call and invoke whatever program is in the live ballot box during the middle of an election -- is a mind-boggling design from a security standpoint. Combining this idiotic design with a program that doesn't even check to see whether someone has tampered with it constitutes negligence and should result in a product recall.

Counties that purchased the Diebold 1.94 optical scan machines should not pay for any upgraded program; instead, Diebold should be required to recall the faulty program and correct the problem at its own expense.

None of the attacks left any telltale marks, rendering all audits and logs useless, except for hand-counting all the paper ballots.

Is it real? Or is it Memorex?

For example, Election Supervisor Ion Sancho was unable to tell, at first, whether the poll tape printed with manipulated results was the real thing. Only the message at the end of the tape, which read "Is this real? Or is it Memorex?" identified the tape as a tampered version of results.

In another test, Congresswoman Corrine Brown (FL-Dem) was shocked to see the impact of a trojan implanted by Dr. Herbert Thompson. She asked if the program could be manipulated in such a way as to flip every fifth vote.

"No problem," Dr. Thompson replied.

"It IS a problem. It's a PROBLEM!" exclaimed Brown, whose district includes the troubled Volusia County, along with Duval County -- both currently using the Diebold opti-scan system.

This system is also used in Congressman John Conyers' home district, in contentious King County, Washington, and in Lucas County, Ohio (where six election officials resigned or were suspended after many irregularities were found.)

Diebold optical scans were used in San Diego for its ill-fated mayoral election in Nov. 2004.

- - - - - - - - - - -

Optical scan systems have paper ballots, but election officials are crippled in their ability to hand count these ballots due to restrictive state regulations and budget limitations.

The canvassing (audit) procedure used to certify results from optical scan systems involves comparing the "poll tapes" (cash register-like results receipts) with the printout from the central tabulator. These tests demonstrate that both results can be manipulated easily and quickly.

Minimum requirements to perform this hack:

1. A single specimen memory card from any county using the Diebold 1.94 optical scan series. (These cards were seen scattered on tables in King County, piled in baskets accessible to the public in Georgia, and jumbled on desktops in Volusia county.)

2. A copy of the compiler for the AccuBasic program. (These compilers have been fairly widely distributed by Diebold and its predecessor company, and there are workarounds if no compiler is available.)

3. Modest working language of any one of the higher level computer languages (Pascal, C, Cobol, Basic, Fortran...) along with introductory-level knowledge of assembler or machine language. (Machine language knowledge needed is less than an advanced refrigerator or TV repairmen needs. The optical scan system is much simpler than modern appliances).

The existence of the executable program in the memory card was discernable from a review of the Diebold memos. The test hacks took just a few hours for Black Box Voting consultants to develop.

Nearly 800 jurisdictions conducted a presidential election on this system. This system is so profoundly hackable that an advanced-level TV repairman can manipulate votes on it.

Black Box Voting asked Dr. Thompson and Hursti to examine the central tabulator and the optical scan system after becoming concerned that not enough attention had been paid to optical scans, tabulators and remote access.

Thompson and Hursti each found the vulnerabilities for their respective hacks in less than 24 hours.


"Open for Business"

When it comes to this optical-scan system, as Hursti says, "It's not that they left the door open. There is no door. This system is 'open for business.'"

The question now is: How brisk has business been? Based on this new evidence, it is time to sequester and examine the memory cards used with Diebold optical scans in Nov. 2004.

The popularity of tamper-friendly machines that are "open for business" in heavily Democratic areas may explain the lethargy with which Democratic leaders have been approaching voting machine security concerns.

The enthusiasm with which Republicans have endorsed machines with no paper ballots at all indicates that neither party really wants to have intact auditing of elections.

The ease with which a system -- which clearly violates dozens of FEC standards going back to 1990 -- was certified calls into question the honesty, competence, and personal financial transactions of both testing labs and NASED certifiers.

Revamp and update hand-counted paper ballot technology?

Perhaps it is time to revisit the idea of hand-counted paper ballots, printed by machines for legibility, with color-coded choices for quick, easy, accurate sorting and counting. We should also take another look at bringing counting teams in when the polls close, to relieve tired poll workers.

This report is the "non-techie" version of a longer report, to be made available around mid-June, with more technical information.

PERMISSION TO REPRINT GRANTED AS LONG AS YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO http://www.blackboxvoting.org

Discuss this article here: http://www.bbvforums.org/forums/messages/72/5936.html
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-29-05 11:38 PM
Response to Original message
1. Thank you for posting this.nt
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lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-30-05 12:09 AM
Response to Original message
2. kick nt
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-30-05 12:27 AM
Response to Original message
3. Tabulators always come up,
"Black Box Voting asked Dr. Thompson and Hursti to examine the central tabulator and the optical scan system after becoming concerned that not enough attention had been paid to optical scans, tabulators and remote access".

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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-30-05 12:49 AM
Response to Original message
4. Simply amazing.................kick for greatest.
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-30-05 01:59 AM
Response to Original message
5. Optical scanners use memory cartridges to hold the vote data
Edited on Mon May-30-05 02:01 AM by Carolab
They first scan the paper ballots and "count the votes".

That is why we MUST address TABULATORS. Specific language and procedures MUST be crafted regarding the physical media that are used to store and transport the precinct data AND the security issues of physically transporting the stored data to the central (state) location.

There must also be specific language outlawing ANY electronic transmissions between precinct tabulators and central tabulators, and NO ONLINE or WIRELESS connections ANYWHERE in the system. And there must be random manual audits at the precinct level.

Better yet, let's just MANUALLY COUNT THE BALLOTS!
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MadisonProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-30-05 03:39 AM
Response to Original message
6. I just kicked it to the Greatest Page!
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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-30-05 07:04 AM
Response to Original message
7. hi bev
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-30-05 07:29 AM
Response to Original message
8. Bev Harris the Freeper
Edited on Mon May-30-05 07:30 AM by Boredtodeath
It is true that in the early stages of these (AndyScam, BTW) threads, the puns and photos were quite funny -- some of you would make great comedy writers and you did capture a few of us old women with your wit. I think my all-time favorite was the "disguises" post.
Best,

Bev Harris
726 posted on 05/29/2005 5:59:43 PM PDT by BevHarris
Freerepublic Bev Harris Fan club

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BigTentDemocrat Donating Member (54 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-30-05 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. The entire post shows a completely different picture
And the term "these threads" appears to represent other threads where she has spoken of election fraud, not Andy. She states quite cleatly in this (entire) post that she is not active in the thread because most of it is about Andy, totally unrelated to what she is working on.

To: Barset
I haven't spent the bandwidth to reply to the Barset posts because you show a propensity to misquote and spin.

For example:Since Bev had made the claim that all the vote fraud fund-raising organizations moneys went through Bev's BBV, did Bev have to approve expenditures from these websites for plane tickets and hotel accommodations in D.C. during the inauguration, if such were made?

That's a nonexistent quote and a ridiculous spin. Black Box Voting was not involved in any inaugural activities, and did not go to Washington D.C. except to meet with John Conyers' staffers about FOIA matters.

You made this quote up: "all vote fraud fund raising activities went through Bev's BBV."

Obviously, only donations specifically to Black Box Voting go through Black Box Voting. It is usually illegal to use a 501c(3) to raise funds for another non-501c(3) organization.

Also, MoveOn.org is the pioneering Internet fundraising organization, and Howard Dean is no slouch. Most of Black Box Votng funds came in from traditional fund raising outlets: Television coverage, newspaper coverage, radio coverage, and (40%) the traditional method: grants.

15 people

Never said that either. Black Box Voting has three paid staff members and seven unpaid directors.

I haven't been active here for two reasons:

(1) Most of this is about Andy, and what I am working on is totally unrelated to these threads.

(2) I've been in the field, where we demonstrated on Thursday last week that the executable program on the memory card, which you feel is "hilarious," is in fact a reality.

We hacked the Leon County Florida optical scan voting system three times in five minutes, and the preliminary (non-technical) report of that is now posted at http://www.blackboxvoting.org .

Some of us really do other things than hang out on message boards. It is true that in the early stages of these threads, the puns and photos were quite funny -- some of you would make great comedy writers and you did capture a few of us old women with your wit. I think my all-time favorite was the "disguises" post.

Best,

Bev Harris
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-30-05 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. You're right
It shows she's trying to fit right in so she can grab the freeper money and run.

You should note - her new freeper buddy "frolish" thinks the person she is responding to is Andy.

Thanks for allowing me to point out that she believes she's attacking Andy while he's recurperating in the hospital.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-30-05 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #21
30. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-30-05 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. Answer Bill Bored's legitimate questions
Edited on Mon May-30-05 11:39 PM by Boredtodeath
Lots of questions on this thread - not one of which the BevBots can answer.

Ooops, I forgot. Bev's too busy answering freeper posts............

Unless the freepers are asking her about Andy's insurance, that is.

on edit:
That's one of Bev's dead giveaways - she just keeps digging that hole a little bit deeper. Too dumb to figure out she should just stop digging.

Oh no, Ms. Harris just runs after a bigger shovel. :evilgrin:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-05 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-05 06:05 AM
Response to Reply #36
37. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
BigTentDemocrat Donating Member (54 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-05 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #37
39. You are out of line
Continuing to make wild and slanderous accusations.

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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-05 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #39
40. Not quite
http://dailykos.com/story/2005/5/31/3249/89901

Oooops! Ya messed up ole buddy. Not a thing slanderous about the truth.

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salvorhardin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-05 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #40
42. I'm not sure what you're implying here
because BigTentDemocrat posted the same thing here at DU.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Also, I can state unequivocally that BigTentDemocrat has no connection to Bev Harris at all and definitely does not post at FR.

You take a very familiar tone in your post SO I wonder if you might just have a personal grudge against BigTentDemocrat.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-30-05 08:06 AM
Response to Original message
9. Kick
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AtLiberty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-30-05 08:08 AM
Response to Original message
10. The article refers to 1.94 software...shouldn't it be 1.96?
Typo?
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-30-05 08:13 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. You're not supposed to notice little details like that
Edited on Mon May-30-05 08:22 AM by Boredtodeath
AccuVote-OS Precinct Counter Firmware version 1.94W
AccuVote-OS Precinct Counter Firmware version 1.96.4
http://www.nased.org/ITA%20Information/NASEDQualifiedVo...
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BigTentDemocrat Donating Member (54 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-30-05 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. 1.94 has had problems for years
The internal Diebold memos made it clear that 1.94 had problems, long before "BBV.org"'s latest discoveries.

This link goes to a post where a rational explanation of why 1.94 is being discussed, vs 1.96.

http://www.bbvforums.org/forums/messages/72/5936.html?1...

So what's the point?
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AtLiberty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-30-05 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. I know our county commission officials would say...
...that this system is different that THEIR Diebold optiscan.

I'll never trust the name "Diebold." Never did. Never will.
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garybeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-03-05 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #18
56. you'll have to ask your commission which version
as stated:

The 1.96 version is used in California, but most of the Florida optical scan counties are still on 1.94 levels, as is much of the rest of the U.S. We had an opportunity for a field test with the 1.94 software, and we took it.

Therefore, only the 1.94 series -- which is still very widely used -- is mentioned in this article. No comment on 1.96 (yet).
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ananda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-30-05 09:15 AM
Response to Original message
12. skewed results in FL
In places where people voted on optical scan machines, the election results were anomolous and further from the exit polls.

FL elections were, again, a fraud.

Sue
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Blaze Diem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-30-05 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Kudos to those who have pressed on to prove the much suspected
falibility of the voting system.
Knowing this now, can we fight for true voter reform before the 2006 elections?
I don't want to hear Diebold issue a statement that the problems have been resolved and its back to business as usual.

You'd think with somthing as important as a national election, Diebold would have considered this flaw.
Unless they created it as such.

What was that "Diebold Memo" to George Bush, again?
..."we are doing everything we can to insure your success.."

Nasty fuckers..We were correct..Diebold caused Bush to win, and maybe a few State Reps also.

Once again WE will have to see that this info gets proper attention. Its the only way to bring back democratic elections in our country.
We certainly won't hear anything from the MSM about this.

DU needs its own 24 hour Network News Station.
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-30-05 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
14. kick.nt
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-30-05 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
17. Oh man - you're posting something from that lying conartist whore?
Bev Harris is fucking scum. I trust NOTHING she says anymore, and she brought it on herself with all her lies and fraud.

When you go back, tell Bev that I said "fuck off".

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Gelliebeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-30-05 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. I thought about that too
when I realized where this information came from

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KnowerOfLogic Donating Member (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-30-05 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. Right, let's just disregard it all since it came from Bev. After all,
it's really about personalities, not about stopping vote fraud.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-30-05 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #23
33. Nah, the issue is real. Her contributions to the issue are in question.
You forget, I was one of those tangentially involved, and I risked a lawsuit on her behalf. I know both that this issue is real, and she is a conniving fraud.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-30-05 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #17
29. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-30-05 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. Holy crap, you're right.
Edited on Mon May-30-05 10:48 PM by Zhade
I need to delete that lying shit's website from my blog. Thanks for reminding me - I haven't blogged in a long time.

Off to edit.

EDIT: the entry has now been edited to clearly state my opinion on Harris. Thanks again for enabling me to not look like a hypocrite!

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-05 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #17
43. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-30-05 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
20. .
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-30-05 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. -
:rofl: :rofl:
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-30-05 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
24. Can we have a moratorium
on posts from the lying scum Bev Dudley, aka, Bev Harris, aka Sonja Johnson?

She has gotten enough money from DUers, smeared enough people and told enough lies.

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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-30-05 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Evidently, Barnum was right
There's a sucker born every minute, David. Some folks appear to WANT to be taken by a proven liar.



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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-30-05 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Well, good for them
I just don't want people seeing posts from Bev or her supporter at DU and thinking she's legite.

She's claimed enough victims.

I am very close to asking for a ban on bbv.org posts. Her site is disreputable and now a Freeper haven.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-30-05 06:12 PM
Response to Original message
25. rightfoot, Welcome to DU!!! This is amazing.
Wonder if the Carter-Baker Commission has this. I doubt it. Or if they do they'd say something like, "well, this isn't proof." This is just another nail in the coffin. Thank you.
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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-30-05 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
27. Please cite references.
"New regs: Counting paper ballots forbidden"

"Most states prohibit elections officials from checking on optical scan tallies by examining the paper ballots."

Please cite references.

"In Washington, Secretary of State Sam Reed declared such spontaneous checkups to be 'unauthorized recounts' and prohibited them altogether."

Please cite reference.

"New Florida regulations will forbid counting paper ballots, even in recounts, except in highly unusual circumstances."

Florida??? Is that still one of the 50 states? Shouldn't be. But if it is, please cite reference.

You can't expect anyone to work to change their laws if you don't cite them.

And another thing: Why are these posts written like an ad for toothpaste? If you have some computer experts working on this stuff, let them publish their own work in a peer-reviewed journal somewhere. Or have the BOE come out with a press release!

You say, "The results of the memory card hack demonstration will assist elections supervisors throughout the U.S., by emphasizing the critical importance of accounting for each and every memory card and protecting access."

Really? How will this report be deseminated to them?

Don't you think they would kinda, sorta, keep track of their memeory cards NOW? (Not that there's anything wrong with additional safeguards.)
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-05 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #27
41. I agree, Bill Bored. These are very alarming statements, indeed--
---that "most states" prohibit checking optiscans against paper ballots, that spontaneous checkups have been prohibited (Washington) and paper ballot counts forbidden (Florida). They certainly sound like things that fraud-prone election officials and fraudulent political representatives would do. It has boggled my mind that ANY responsible election official would ADVOCATE paperless voting, so these outrageous practices, if true, would certainly not surprise me (especially in Florida). But I want to know IF they are true, and what the details are.

Sam Reed/Washington: When did he say this, and how did he implement it? Was he interpreting a statute? Which one? Was it general, or in regard to a particular election? What was his argument for such counts being "unauthorized"? (Did he have a leg to stand on?) Should pressure be put on legislators, or on him...or what?

Florida: The wording would seem to suggest a FUTURE law ("New Florida regulations WILL FORBID..."). Is this a bill in the legislature? Is it likely to be passed? Is it being done by fiat (Jeb Bush and the Bush machine)? Is it already in force? What is the mechanism for getting it done or undone? Where to put pressure (if possible)? (And, is it statewide, or some county?)

"most states": Yes, please, cite the regulations and the states, or give a reference.
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-30-05 10:18 PM
Response to Original message
31. Congrats for making "Greatest Discussion Threads"and
welcome "rightfoot"
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-05 01:21 AM
Response to Original message
35. kick.nt
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-05 08:36 AM
Response to Original message
38. BigTentDemcrat=John Dean=BozosforBush=FrankSolich
Edited on Tue May-31-05 08:36 AM by Boredtodeath
Stuck in a time warp with Jeff Fisher and Wayne Madsen with Bev Harris.

This is just too delicious.

http://dailykos.com/story/2005/5/31/3249/89901
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salvorhardin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-05 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #38
44. Again, there's nothing secretive going on here
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-05 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
45. kick.nt
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-05 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
46. Isn't this just glorious!
:sarcasm:
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-05 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
47. KICK.NT
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 06:59 AM
Response to Original message
48. Is it possible to separate the message from the messenger?
--or are all findings reported to BBV going to be discounted? :shrug:
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 07:03 AM
Response to Reply #48
49. They SHOULD all be discounted
There are no FACTS or supporting documentation.

And, Bev Harris is a proven liar.

You want the hard work of election fraud to be FURTHER discredited by touting her unsupportable musings?

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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #49
50. But are there "no FACTS or supporting documentation"...
Leon County Elections Supervisor Ion Sancho and Information Systems Officer Thomas James had already implemented security procedures in Leon County far exceeding the norm in elections management. This testing, done by a team of researchers including Black Box Voting, independent filmmakers, security expert Dr. Herbert Thompson, and special consultant Harri Hursti, was authorized by Mr. Sancho, in an unusual act of openness and courage, to identify any remaining holes in Leon County's election security.

Me? I'm willing to wait to see if the claims are substantiated.
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 07:37 AM
Response to Reply #50
51. Why publish without substantiation?
Just like everything else Ms. Harris does - she'll pretend this never happened when she can't substantiate it.

You know, like all her other unsubstantiated work. (Volusia County poll tapes in the trash ring any bells?)

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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #51
52. As you may know, that was perhaps my biggest gripe with Ms. Harris...
she compromised promising leads by publishing too early. However, I'm still willing to wait this one out because:

1.) there was a lot of good work done after the election which showed the optical scan counties in Florida were out of line with the rest of the state.

2.) many reputable election fraud investigators have long suspected the "false zero value report" hack.

3.) many good people continue to work with Ms. Harris

Again, separate the message from the messenger.
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #52
53. LOL, if she could, she would skin you alive for that
Ms. Harris thinks she's both - the message and the messenger.

And that, sir, IS the problem in a nutshell.

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garybeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #48
54. It's up to you. I agree and I read her stuff
Edited on Thu Jun-02-05 10:34 PM by garybeck
Don't discount everything she says just because someone told you to.

Me, I read it all. I take her stuff with a grain of salt. I think this article is worth reading. Here in VT we have almost all Diebold opscans. I need this info and no one else has it.

gb
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-03-05 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #54
58. I'm especially interested in this paragraph...
New regs: Counting paper ballots forbidden

Most states prohibit elections officials from checking on optical scan tallies by examining the paper ballots. In Washington, Secretary of State Sam Reed declared such spontaneous checkups to be "unauthorized recounts" and prohibited them altogether. New Florida regulations will forbid counting paper ballots, even in recounts, except in highly unusual circumstances. Without paper ballot hand-counts, the hacks demonstrated below show that optical-scan elections can be destroyed in seconds.


If that checks out, I think it goes a long way toward showing an organized attempt to subvert democracy. I've always suspected that, once in power, people that were 'elected' via a rigged system would pass laws to cover their tracks. Indeed the timing of such laws may be used to determine when and where cheating has occurred.
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-03-05 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #58
59. Here's the kind of documentation you SHOULD see
Edited on Fri Jun-03-05 10:04 AM by Boredtodeath
To achieve full compliance with Title III HAVA requirements the Georgia General Assembly in its 2003 Legislative Session considered and passed Senate Bill 258 (hereinafter SB 258), which was signed by the Governor on June 2, 2003. SB 258 revises the following six election code areas:
? Definition of a vote The Election Code currently provides for the definition of a vote for each election system used in the State of Georgia for federal, state and local elections; SB 258 authorizes the State Election Board to promulgate rules to consolidate and define a vote as required by HAVA.
http://www.sos.state.ga.us/hava/state_plan_final.pdf

And this:
Said chapter is further amended by striking paragraphs (7) and (8) of Code Section 21-2-31, relating to the duties of the State Election Board, and inserting in lieu thereof new paragraphs (7), (8), and (9) to read as follows:
"(7) To promulgate rules and regulations to define uniform and nondiscriminatory standards concerning what constitutes a vote and what will be counted as a vote for each category of voting system used in this state;
http://www.legis.state.ga.us/legis/2003_04/fulltext/sb2...

and not "he said, she said" unsupported claims. Unsubstantiated claims like those of Ms. Harris diminish the very REAL claims as documented above. The behavior of Ms. Harris harms us all by allowing officials to dismiss very real concerns of allowing a select few appointed officials to define a vote with her he said/she said claims.

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garybeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-03-05 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. how is that related to the question?
The question was whether or not there are laws preventing observers or officials from counting any of the ballots in optical scan systems.

the article claimed that in many states this resorts to an unofficial recount which is illegal.

the reply seems to discuss what constitutes a vote and what doesn't constitute a vote, not whether or not observers are allowed to hand count the ballots.

Are not these two different issues?

Personally I think it is a lot to ask someone writing an article to reference the source of every detail. This is not usually the case in most journalistic writing. Open up a newspaper read any article. Is every statement referenced with a source?

Rather than make accusations of false reporting simply because the source is not supplied, I think it would be more useful to find an actual error and point it out.

I believe the statement in question is generally true. I have been told that here in Vermont it is illegal to view or count the optical scan ballots unless there is an official recount, and I've had lawyers tell me that is the case in many other states.
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-03-05 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. It's entirely related
Because one example deals with FACTS and the other example deals with statements of fact not proven.

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garybeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 10:29 PM
Response to Original message
55. This article is now reprinted on Solar Bus
Big Security Holes Found in Diebold Optical Scan Systems
Experts call for decertification; affects 800 jurisdictions


http://www.solarbus.org/election/articles/050602-bbv.sh...

peaceout
gb

------------------------------------
the solar bus
ELECTION JUSTICE CENTER
your home for updated information on the fight for democracy in America
http://election.solarbus.org
------------------------------------
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-03-05 01:58 AM
Response to Reply #55
57. Thank you Garybeck
for getting important stories posted on your site,you are able to see through the silliness. Thanks :toast:
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