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Could 14.4% of Gore voters have voted for Bush?

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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-05 08:30 AM
Original message
Could 14.4% of Gore voters have voted for Bush?
Edited on Sun May-08-05 08:32 AM by TruthIsAll
That's what he had to get to win by 3 million votes if you
believe rBr.

National Exit Poll
12:22am: 
rBr Factor:	0.0%				
Kerry margin:5.91	million votes		

	2000	Mix	Kerry	Bush	Nader	
21.150	None	17.30%	57.00%	41.00%	2.00%
49.214	Gore	40.25%	91.00%	8.00%	1.00%	
48.690	Bush	39.82%	9.00%	91.00%	0.00%	
3.206	Other	2.62%	71.00%	21.00%	8.00%	

122.26	Total	100.00%	51.94%	47.10%	0.96%	
		122.26	63.50	57.59	1.17	


12:22am: 
rBr Factor:	-7.0%				
Bush margin: 2.98	million votes		

	2000	Mix	Kerry	Bush	Nader		
21.150	None	17.30%	53.01%	44.99%	2.00%	
49.214	Gore	40.25%	84.63%	14.37%	1.00%	
48.690	Bush	39.82%	8.37%	91.63%	0.00%	
3.206	Other	2.62%	66.03%	25.97%	8.00%	

122.26	Total	100.00%	48.30%	50.74%	0.96%		
		122.26	59.05	62.03	1.17		
							


rBr 	Kerry	Votes		Bush	Votes	Margin	
3%	53.50%	65.40		45.55%	55.68	9.72	
2%	52.98%	64.77		46.07%	56.32	8.45	
1%	52.46%	64.13		46.59%	56.95	7.18	

0%	51.94%	63.50		47.10%	57.59	5.91	Exit Poll

-1%	51.42%	62.86		47.62%	58.22	4.64	
-2%	50.90%	62.23		48.14%	58.86	3.37	
-3%	50.38%	61.59		48.66%	59.49	2.10	
-4%	49.86%	60.96		49.18%	60.13	0.83	
-5%	49.34%	60.32		49.70%	60.76	-0.44	
-6%	48.82%	59.69		50.22%	61.40	-1.71	

-7%	48.30%	59.05		50.74%	62.03	-2.98	Recorded Vote

-8%	47.78%	58.42		51.26%	62.67	-4.25	
-9%	47.26%	57.78		51.78%	63.30	-5.52	
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smoogatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-05 08:34 AM
Response to Original message
1. Could you distill these numbers into language
for thos of us who are innumerate? According to Kkkarl Rove, the 4 million evangelicals who stayed home in '00 turned out for Bush in '04, and that accounts for the 3 million vote margin. No?
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-05 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. EXPLANATION OF THE WEIGHTINGS AND RESULTS OF THE ANALYSIS
Edited on Sun May-08-05 02:23 PM by TruthIsAll
EXPLANATION OF THE WEIGHTINGS AND INTERPRETATION OF THE RESULTS OF THE ANALYSIS

As I have posted numerous times on DU, the absolute maximum possible weightings in the How Voted 2000 category are as follows:

Bush: 39.82%, Gore 40.25%, Other (Nader): 2.62%.

FORGET ABOUT THE POLLING WEIGHTS. THESE ARE THE ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM POSSIBLE WEIGHTS BASED ON THE TOTAL NUMBER OF 2000 VOTERS WHO WERE STILL ALIVE AND COULD COME TO VOTE IN 2004.

FOR THIS ANALYSIS, WE SHALL ASSUME THAT ALL OF THEM (GORE, BUSH AND NADER VOTERS) CAME TO VOTE. WE KNOW THAT SOME DID NOT VOTE IN 2004, THEREFORE THE ACTUAL WEIGHTS ARE SLIGHTLY LOWER FOR GORE, BUSH AND NADER.

TO THE EXTENT THAT GORE, BUSH AND NADER VOTERS STAYED HOME, THE CORRESPONDING PERCENTAGE WEIGHTINGS MUST DECLINE AND THE PERCENTAGE OF NEW VOTERS (WHO WENT STRONGLY FOR KERRY) MUST RISE.

I WELCOME ANYONE WHO CARES TO DISPUTE THESE FACTS TO STEP FORWARD AND DO SO.

Since the Final 13660 respondent timeline (which Bush won) is rejected due to the IMPOSSIBLE 43% Bush /37% Gore weighting, we will use the 13047 timeline as our base. We will assume the 13047 timeline voting percentages as a base case, along with the maximum weightings given above (100% turnout for Gore and Bush voters).

We will calculate vote totals using one percent increments applied to the base case vote percentages for each subgroup: New voters, Gore, Bush and Nader/Other.

In the base case (rBr factor =0%), Kerry wins 51.94% of the vote, a 5.91mm margin.

If we assume a 7% decrease in the Kerry vote in each subgroup and apply the difference to the Bush vote for each group, we find that Bush wins the election with 50.74%, a 2.98 million vote margin (very close to the actual recorded vote). But for Bush to win by a 3 million vote margin 14.37% of Gore voters must have voted for him, as well as 44.99% of New voters, 91.63% of Bush 2000 voters and 25.97% of Nader voters. These percentages are totally implausible and far beyond the 1.75% margin of error.
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kiwi_expat Donating Member (526 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-05 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. kkkarl's "evangelicals who stayed home in '00 turned out for Bush in '04"
Edited on Sun May-08-05 07:52 PM by kiwi_expat

would have answered "No Vote" to the Vote2000 question and "No" to "Are you a first time voter?" - because they had voted in some prior elections, but not 2000.

So, they would not be included in the percentages you mention in #10. Right?


p.s. I am steeling myself for being called a "koolaid-drinking kkk supporter". :-) :-) :-)



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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-05 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. They are in that group. Actually, 11% were first time voters..
Edited on Sun May-08-05 07:57 PM by TruthIsAll
The other 6% did not vote in 2000 but did before.

In any case, it's irrelevant. The category includes both and Kerry won 57% of all those who did not vote in 2000.

Lets look at the numbers:

Kerry: 12.5mm
Bush: 9mm

Who cares where Bush's 9mm came from?
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kiwi_expat Donating Member (526 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-05 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. What happens if you hypothesize that Bush's lead came from the....

...group that "did not vote in 2000 but did before" and that those Evangelical Christian "reluctant VOTERS" did not participate in the exit poll (i.e., it was hard enough to get them to even vote)? Assume that other Bush voters responded at the same rate as Kerry voters.

Thanks very much for exploring this, TIA. I know you will not be able to resist starting a new "Reluctant Bush VOTERS" thread. Go for it. Just please do not say "now 'they' are saying...". Ta.


p.s. have you done or seen an analysis, anywhere, examining how much of the difference between the exit polls and the canvass is due to the under/over vote and the rejected provisional ballots? Uncounted votes would include a very high percentage of Kerry votes.

I believe that the Miami Herald used such an analysis to show a Gore win in Florida (before the newspaper consortium actually proved it when they counted the under/over votes). The Herald assumed that vote distribution of the uncounted votes was the same as that for the counted votes for each precinct. It would take a lot of computational grunt to do the analysis nation-wide. But Ohio might be doable.
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-05 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Why don't YOU do it? You have the numbers. n/t
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-05 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. Kerry was leading Bush in 1st-time voters & those who did not vote in 2000
Edited on Sun May-08-05 11:58 PM by TruthIsAll
At 11027 respondents:

Kerry won 59% of those who did not vote in 2000
and led Bush 12.49-8.25mm;

Kerry won 56% of first-time voters
and led Bush 7.53-5.78mm;

Kerry won 66.4% of those who voted prior to 2000
and led Bush 4.73-2.32mm

Assume maximum weightings for 2000 voter turnout: 
************************************

VOTED IN 2000	
         Mix	Bush	Kerry	Nader	
No	17.31%	39%	59%	1%	
Gore	40.25%	8%	91%	0%	
Bush	39.82%	90%	9%	0%	
Other	2.62%	13%	65%	16%	

	100%	46.15%	52.13%	0.59%	
	120.88	56.42	63.73	0.72	
*********************************************					

Have you ever vote before
         Mix	Bush	Kerry	Nader	
No	11.0%	43%	56%	1%	
yes	89.0%	48%	50%	2%	

	100%	47.45%	50.66%	1.89%	
	122.26	58.01	61.94	2.31	

*****************************************					
Did not vote in 2000 (votes in millions)
     17.31%	8.25	12.49	0.21	20.95

First vote
      11.31%	5.78	7.53	0.13	13.45

Voted before 2000
	6%	2.47	4.96	0.08	7.50

*********************************************					

Did not vote in 2000
		39.39%	59.60%	1.01%	

Voted before 2000
		43.00%	56.00%	1.00%	

First vote	
	      32.93%	66.04%	1.03%	
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kiwi_expat Donating Member (526 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-05 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. That's assuming the Evangelical RBVs were interviewed.

:-)
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-05 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Well, I guess that just about wraps it up.
/
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-05 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #10
20. TIA Challenge -- Who Will Step Forward & Challenge This Analysis!
What a great line: " WELCOME ANYONE WHO CARES TO DISPUTE THESE FACTS TO STEP FORWARD AND DO SO."

Let's have a debate. It's time to separate the wheat from the chaff!

Bring 'em on!
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kiwi_expat Donating Member (526 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-05 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. What about my "reluctant Bush VOTER" hypothesis (#18)?
I can not resist a "challenge"....

RBV Hypothesis: Bush's lead came from the group that "did not vote in 2000 but did before" and those Evangelical Christian "reluctant VOTERS" did not participate in the exit poll (i.e., it was hard enough to get them to even vote). Assume that other Bush voters responded at the same rate as Kerry voters.

Do I really have to do the math??? :-)



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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-05 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. haha...Don't expect me to do THAT math!
No, the TIA Challenge is a duel with opponents using his/her choice of spread sheets. The math just gets you in the door.

I'm not a statistician. However, I can read and think, write on occasion. My belief is that the 'debating society' days are over here. We have monsters running the country who stole TWO elections. The idea of the challenge, which TIA made in his explanatory post is to just end the quibbling once and for all.

I'm sure that if you do the math and respond to him somewhere, you can have some fun and find out why your wrong.

:hi: Enjoy and let me now when you do the math.

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kiwi_expat Donating Member (526 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-05 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. I'm afraid the only way to end the quibbling is with manual recounts...

We are looking for a couple of really suspicious Ohio precincts to recount (under Ohio's Sunshine laws) and see what actually happened.

If we can find tabulator fraud, the big organizations will come in and manually recount the entire state.

Until then, we can only discuss different hypotheses - some more compelling than others - but hypotheses, nevertheless.
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Sawyer Donating Member (131 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. When do you expect to do those recounts?
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kiwi_expat Donating Member (526 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. Liam_laddie is currently negotiating with Hamilton County staff.

They have agreed to do some recounts but are procrastinating because of preparation for various local elections. Liam will not be brushed off!

He is also beginning negotiations with Clermont County staff.


Would anyone else like to do some Ohio recounts - after Liam has demonstrated how it is done?
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #28
31. Well, you're doing God's work. Thank you from my heart.
I thought you were in NZ from your profile.

Yes, manual recounts are the only true test but with paper ballots. Maybe we'll get that someday soon. I have a feeling election fraud will gather the same force in public consciousness that the doubts about the Kennedy assassination did. I can't recall the source, but there was at least one poll after the election that showed a fairly high level of public doubt in the reliability of the election process, results, etc.

I want to make one point that I think is important for every election fraud resister. While tabulator fraud discovery would be mind blowing and a recount heavenly, the work done by TIA on the exit polls proves fraud. It's the difference between an eye witness (recount, fraud discovery) case and a circumstantial case in court. You can prove an event took place entirely with circumstantial evidence. The exit poll data is a combination of both really. There were actual events that took place, the exit polls, and then the analysis. The proofs are multiple and varied here by TIA but they're compelling. The critics of this never seem to answer his points.

Given the validity of the exit poll analysis and the support of that by TIA and the many academic statisticians, we have enough to scream recount! investigation! fraud!

Good luck in Ohio. I would not be surprised at all if you demonstrate tabulator fraud, the most elegant way to fix the whole thing.
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kiwi_expat Donating Member (526 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. It is liam_laddie (not I) who is doing God's work !!
You were correct, I am an American citizen living in NZ.

My number one priority is demonstrating that Kerry won Ohio and thus is our rightful President. I am hopeful that we will discover tabulator fraud, but it is not essential. All we really need to do is demonstrate that errors (intentional or not), combined with uncounted votes, were sufficient to bridge the 110,000 vote-gap in Ohio.


Cheers.

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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-05 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. Sure you do.
/
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acmejack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-05 08:39 AM
Response to Original message
2. No, they couldn't have
wouldn't, couldn't, no Fing way, etc...
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MasonJar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-05 08:54 AM
Response to Original message
3. Kerry was cheated even worse than Gore because by 2004 the
scum were better at the theft.
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In Truth We Trust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-05 09:14 AM
Response to Original message
4. Nope, No way,frawd frawd frawd .......thanks TIA
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Botany Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-05 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
5. U DAAA MAN!
Example In Delaware, OH 5 (about that #) precincts that voted for
Gore in 2000 went to * in 2004 despite having more democratic
voters registered.

I wonder how the media is doing on the run away bride story......
or Paula Abdul strory?

BTW TIA, any guess to the # of votes that migrated from Kerry
to *?
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MissWaverly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-05 09:42 AM
Response to Original message
6. Okay, let me see if I understand you
You are saying the Bush percentage of the vote was 44.99% which corresponds to approximately what he has now, (or at least what he had until he remain fixed on Bolton & SSN) so the only way that
he could have reached the winning percentage that he did was a 14.37% rejection of Kerry by Gore voters? That would not happen, since they were basically po'd that Gore rec'd more popular votes than Bush and should have been elected president. There's is no way they would have done that.
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-05 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. If you didnt vote for Bush the 1st time--------------
Why would you vote for him in 2004?
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MissWaverly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-05 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Ask me how I know-Because the machines tell us so
Edited on Sun May-08-05 01:51 PM by MissWaverly
The voting machines show Bush votes in democratic precincts all over
the us. So democrats were voting for Bush, if the democrats didn't
reject Kerry then where did all those dem votes for Bush come from.

Maryland
Kerry 1,334,493 there were 1,340,778 registered Dems who voted 11/2
Bush 1,024,703 there were 733,643 only 81% of Republicans voted
Now where did all those votes for Bush come from, Greens or maybe
Independents or MAYBE it was all those "dirty felons" the Republicans are always claiming sneak in to vote illegally.
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-05 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. You are looking at the wrong line.The base case Bush percentage was 47.10%
Edited on Sun May-08-05 03:58 PM by TruthIsAll
To win by 3 million, he needed 14.37% of Gore Voters. That's 1 out of 7.

In other words, 1 out of 7 Gore voters were glad that Bush stole the election in 2000 and wanted to reward him with re-selection.
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super simian Donating Member (292 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-05 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. yeah fucking right
This "adminstration" has hijacked our democracy. The gun at the head of the American voter is held by the MSM, those manipulators of "popular opinion." Questions about the political affiliation of media ownership? Are they right wing extremists? Are they eager to protect their profits at the expense of human values?

Duh.
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MissWaverly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-05 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Thanks TIA, can't see that by choice
but every 7th vote switch, I could see it as a default, yes
you have heard from me how the machine defaulted to Bush 5 times.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-05 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
9. The logical explanation is that the evangelicals turned out in troves
And that they didn't in 2000. I'm mixed on this issue. First off, Kerry's supporters did SO much grassroots get out the vote work that it's so hard to believe that it's hard to believe that anything could match that. But the religious right is a strong organization that not only has a strong following, but also a huge amount of money. It is POSSIBLE that they were able to match our get out the vote efforts but it seems very unlikely.
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-05 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. If that is so, how come Kerry won 57%+ of 21mm New voters?
There is a direct contradiction between the turnout of new voters and the "silent" faih-based turnout.

Follow the numbers closely.
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Melissa G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-05 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #11
21. kick for truth! n/t
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MissWaverly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-05 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Didn't happen
Edited on Sun May-08-05 02:21 PM by MissWaverly
Although voter turnout was up generally in 2004, there is no indication that white evangelicals boosted their level of participation more than other groups in the population...white evangelicals constituted the same percentage of the electorate in both years: 23%. My note: GWB did not receive all the religious vote, 86% of black Protestants preferred Kerry and 58% of Hispanic Catholics preferred Kerry according to the National Exit Poll & 74%
of the Jewish vote went to Kerry.

http://people-press.org/commentary/display.php3?Analysi...
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #12
33. Well then, its seems that Kerry won.
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MissWaverly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. That's the truth
I don't think that I am hard to please, we let George steal first base in 00, there's no reason to give him a "walk" to 3rd now.
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-11-05 03:57 AM
Response to Reply #12
35. CHECK THE 13047 EXIT POLL: 78% OF THE JEWISH VOTE WENT TO KERRY
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