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TomPaine.com: What didn't happen in Ohio

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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 04:57 PM
Original message
TomPaine.com: What didn't happen in Ohio
http://www.tompaine.com/articles/what_didnt_happen_in_ohio.php

<snip>

For casting doubt on the conspiracy theory, TomPaine.com and I received virtual barrels of e-mail, most from angry anti-Bush activists who could not believe that their hard work had been for naught. I also heard from Steven Freeman, a University of Pennsylvania professor and author of a widely cited study that served as the primary basis for the pro-theft-theory folks, The Unexplained Exit Poll Discrepancy . His remarks, and my response to them, appeared on TomPaine.com.

Privately, I heard from many Democratic officials, election reform advocates and analysts from inside Ohio and elsewhere, who believed my reporting to be accurate, and who were more than a little perturbed by the frenzy, which they found a counterproductive distraction from the serious ongoing effort to reform election practices. Since the debate refuses to die, this seems a good time to trumpet the arrival of not just one, but two, new technical analyses that cast further doubt upon the conspiracy theories out there. The author of the first is an earnest young fellow in San Diego named Rick Brady.

<snip>

So, absent the emergence of true polling methodology experts screaming theft, we may reasonably conclude that no evil genius rigged the results. Instead, what we experienced was probably an amalgam of system failings, miscalculations, incompetence, and, in some cases, the variably successful exertions of biased election officials. These are, at worst, symptoms of gaming the system, a deplorable practice hardly limited to this election or, historically, to one party. The anomalies being cited, including by Christopher Hitchensapparently without any notable independent verificationin a widely cited Vanity Fair piece, may prove to be invalid, or attributable as well to other factors. Perhaps fraud occurred on an isolated basis, but no one has come forward with careful documentationas opposed to hystericalunscientific allegation.

Until the public becomes confident in the underlying integrity of the electoral apparatus in this country, none of the urgently needed improvements to that system can take place. Thats why the conspiracy-mongering must cease. Can we instead please turn now to the many substantive proposals already being proffered to make things betterincluding pending legislation? Lets keep our eye on the real ball thats in our court.

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Botany Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
1. Bullshit!
Edited on Thu May-05-05 05:53 PM by Botany
I saw it with my own eyes I heard it w/ my own ears. I live
in Columbus, Ohio too.

"gaming the system this.....????? this was multi leveled multi pronged
attack on John Kerry's final vote count and artificially inflating
*'s vote count.

"Perhaps fraud occurred on an isolated basis" ?????

Only if isolated basis means nationwide.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-06-05 01:26 AM
Response to Original message
2. Congratulations! More self-defeating bullshit, naysaying. Wunderbar!
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-06-05 03:32 AM
Response to Original message
3. Two very close elections. Two Republican Secs of State.
Both Republican Secs of State doing double duty as Bush's state campaign chairs. Diebold machines manufactured and in use in key counties in both states. Big GOP donors running Diebold. Not least, a strong racist undertone re voter-access -- longer lines in heavy black precincts, etc.

In sum, that is the infrastructure of cheating.

Bush-Cheney cheated. Kerry-Edwards won.
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tommcintyre Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-06-05 06:27 AM
Response to Original message
4. LOL! "Thats why the conspiracy-mongering must cease."
So why ARE they so concerned if there's nothing to it?

Hmm... they're not ignoring us anymore, are they?

Notice: WE ARE NOT GOING TO STOP UNTIL JUSTICE IS DONE!

Drip, drip, drip
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Chi Donating Member (921 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-06-05 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
5. Nothing good comes from framing it 'anti-Bush activists'.
Couldn't be we actually care about our right to vote.

"Until the public becomes confident in the underlying integrity of the electoral apparatus in this country,
none of the urgently needed improvements to that system can take place."

Talk about getting AssBackwards.
Kinda tough getting confidence in a system before it's fixed.

'will you people just shut up, we're not gonna fix it till you say it's good, now just shut up'
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MissWaverly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-06-05 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. remember how we were shouted down over Iraq
now it's proven that Bush knew there were no WMD's and
trumped it up to get the America people to back the war, now this is the same thing, they want Bush's numbers back up and this is starting
to cost them, we want the truth, we are not going to listen to SPIN!
I saw the machine default to Bush 5 times, I want my vote back and I
want this to be a free country again.
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Chi Donating Member (921 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-06-05 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. I'm sorry to hear about your voting experience...
and I share in your feeling of losing your country.
(I don't mean this politically, I mean it morally)

Seems as though truth, justice, and the American way are only a memory of times past.
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MissWaverly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-05 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. we must stand up for America
the constitution is just an old piece of paper, unless it's precepts
are lived by the America people, that's why we must continually work
for change in this country. I think we are beginning to have a voice, and in the Republican primary in South Carolina this year, after a challenge, they found that the vote was erroneously padded 3 to 1, (this happen to Republicans, not "dirty liberals", not wild
eyed tin foil hatters). Of course, it was blamed on human error, so
what, it still happened, it's a fact. It is now documented that our reason for going to war with Iraq was a deliberate lie. It's a fact, they can't spin it. Blair has said the memo was true.
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-06-05 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
6. Boy, will Baker ever regret this. We are past ignore and laugh..
now they are fighting in wild desperation.

And then we win.
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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-06-05 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Baker?
I thought from the content of the piece, it might have been written by James Baker! Maybe this jerk has some of the same defective genes or something!
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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-06-05 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
8. ??????????????
Edited on Fri May-06-05 07:19 PM by Bill Bored
"Until the public becomes confident in the underlying integrity of the electoral apparatus in this country, none of the urgently needed improvements to that system can take place."

WTF does that mean? If it's not broke, fix it anyway?

This lazy moron should read a Diebold User's Guide and see how much confidence he/she has in the underlying integrity of the electoral apparatus after that! Uninformed lazy ignorance is NO excuse.

I don't give a crap about the EXIT POLLS. It's the machines STUPID!

And the voter suppression too!
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-06-05 08:58 PM
Response to Original message
10. Russ Baker has written other negative articles about Democratic efforts.
Edited on Fri May-06-05 09:08 PM by KoKo01
I'm surprised to see such a vicious article on Tom Paine, though. Apparently he writes for them as a contributor or maybe he's now a full time employee.

Here's an article much the same he wrote this January about Election Fraud. (He writes for the Nation and has his own blog, and some of his articles about Bush have been good...but he doesn't believe the machine code is bad or that the machines can be hacked. Sounds like he has a real "thing" about it.)


Election 2004: Stolen Or Lost
Russ Baker
January 07, 2005


CONCLUSIONS


While it's appallingly easy to mess around with a computer, it's a lot more difficult to rig an election.

To have a conspiracy of this magnitude, you'd need more than a bunch of individual mishapsyou need a plan and coordination. And you'd need a large number of collaborators willing to commit felonious and treasonous behavior of the highest order.

None of this is to say that election fraud could not, theoretically, happenparticularly in a truly opaque system that produces no paper trail. Indeed, with 88 counties, a bewildering variety of voting systems, and often conflicting decisions by courts, and state and local officials, it's a wonder that elections work at all .

More allegations of fraud in the 2004 election will be floated. The problem is that those who float these claims don't bother to perform any measure of due diligence. So far, every claim of fraud that I have examined has turned out to have a credible alternate explanation.

Legitimate avenues of inquiry remain. Exploring how particular companies get contracts is one; the appropriate role and behavior of top state elections officials is another. Then there are the kinds of bad administrative decisions made at the county level.
http://www.russbaker.com/TomPaine_com%20-%20Election%202004%20Stolen%20Or%20Lost.htm
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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-05 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. Here's what I think:
I've used this analogy before:

You build a million cars that can go 100 mph.
The speed limit is 65.
It doesn't take a conspiracy for a certain number of drivers who figure out that they can go 100 mph to do so, despite the fact that it's illegal. This makes the average speed of all the drivers on the road more than 65.
Now to extend the analogy further, suppose you don't even do your own driving; you hire a chauffeur. Now it's up to him whether or not obey the speed limit. You really have no control over the situation at all.

In case anyone doesn't get this:

Cars=Votin' machines
Breaking the speed limit=election fraud
Chauffeur=outsourcing election management, e.g., to Diebold or another vendor
Average speed above 65 mph=a change in the outcome of the election.


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Wiley50 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-05 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
14. Send This Idiot A Copy Of " Citizen's In The Rain"

Man, This Is The Most Disheartening Thing I learned
Last Week When Trying To Help Defend Koehler:

All Of The Otherwise Progressive Websites
That Refuse To See The Plain Truth!
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