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Rove says win due to GOPs "largely INVISIBLE grass-roots effort" in Ohio

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dzika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 12:56 PM
Original message
Rove says win due to GOPs "largely INVISIBLE grass-roots effort" in Ohio

May 3, 2005

Rove says GOP ready to keep power for years

by Bill Sloat
Plain Dealer Reporter


Sharonville, Ohio- White House political operative Karl Rove told a Republican rally in Ohio Monday that Democrats faded from national power because the GOP has claimed the "mantle of idealism" over the past 40 years.

(...)

Rove told the 700 Republicans at the dinner that the Kerry campaign never had a chance in Ohio because the GOP had a huge grass-roots effort that was largely invisible but still potent across the state.

"Election night, they thought they were going to win," Rove said of the Kerry forces. "And they thought they were going to win because they thought they had us beat in Ohio."

(...)

"We defend time-tested values," Rove said, adding that the Republican Party is determined to reform and update 20th century programs such as Social Security that will be confronted by demographic upheavals in the decades ahead.

"We're shaping history," he said.

more here
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Marnieworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
1. What a lovely euphemism!
Election Fraud, organized criminal conspiracy, fake security alerts, deliberate disenfranchisement. These words are so ugly but a "Grass Roots" movement sounds so American.

I wish there was a hell for these people.
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im10ashus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
2. Largely invisible?
Um, yes! That's because they STOLE the election there. As far as "shaping history" is concerned. Um, yes again. Much like Hitler shaped history in WWII, sure. What an asshat.
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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Invisible because they were with in companies like Di-Bold and
the Secretary of States office.
Invisible my ass!
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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #6
21. Not necessarily
Dibold didn't have machines in Ohio.

Putting aside nefarious interpretations, this goes along with many legitimate interpretations of what happened. Bush got many more votes than expected from exurban and other areas.

Of course it is necessary to continue to investiagate any possible outright fraud, and change the laws which allowed for voter suppression (which by itself might have made the difference in Ohio). However it also does not help us long run to ignore the fact that there were people the Democrats didn't account for who the Republicans were able to mobilize.

This is particularly important as so many people voted Republican contrary to both their economic interests and contrary to their political views due to the tremendous misinformation campaign the Republicans had.

We are already at a disadvantage in much of the country due to the right wing noise machine. Having areas which in a sense really were invisible (because the were ignored by Democrats and virtually left uncontested) just makes the Republicans job easier.
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MissWaverly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #21
32. see story how Ohio stolen by rigged Diebold tabulators
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/3/8848/86473

I believe that my Ohio vote was stolen by the Diebold electronic systems used to tabulate votes in this state. I believe that my Ohio vote has been stolen by a rigged system set up under the watch of a Republican secretary of state and a Republican-controlled state elections office.
1. I believe that thousands of votes cast by those good hard working people who came out for the first time to vote, who voted for the first time in years, who stood in line for two, four, six or even eight hours to vote when they needed to be working, or taking care of their kids, but they went to vote because they knew they could make a difference--- their votes have been stolen by rigged electronic tabulation here in Ohio.
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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #32
41. I hope it is investigated
I don't know if your vote was stolen, but such charges should definately be investigated.

Regardless of whether it was stolen, there really were "invisible voters" and Democrats need to adjust strategy to this. We need to both ensure that votes are not stolen in the future, and to pay attention to areas where the Republicans really did get votes.
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MissWaverly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #41
48. I'm from Maryland, my vote was stolen, machine default to GWB
But I copied that from the link, was it investigated, no, nothing to
see here. That's what the Conyers investigation tried to do, but it
was toothless because the Republicans prevented an investigation with subpoena power by the House Judiciary Committee, who would investigate in Ohio, Fraudwell, I mean Blackwell????
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whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
3. Ahaaa..... of course, just a variation on the famous "Invisible Hand"
...of Adam Smith, just the invisible voters coming up from under the grass....Diebold's Scott Plus Fertilizer, aka Bushit!
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
4. Did they use x-ray glasses and death beams too??
:rofl:

NGU.


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jean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
5. Largely invisible? Just wait, and it'll become visible to the most myopic
I have faith in the folks investigating GOP-sponsored Vote Fraud/Theft/Suppression. There will come a day when the GOP crime bosses, agents and puppets (like bush) will be brought down. It's coming.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Yeah, and the Supreme Court five will be imprisoned over Dec 12th.
Sorry, I hope you're right, but I have little hope. SCOTUS ruled on December 12th, 2000, that while votes were cast in the election that were not counted, the election could be decided without counting them. No one fought. No one grabbed a pitchfork. Very few even wrote good editorials.

No one cares. Americans don't want democracy, and they certainly haven't earned it. They want bread and circuses. McDonald's, Starbucks and American Idol. The rest they won't care about until they are behind bars being jabbed with cattle prods for thinking a non-approved thought.

Or not. Some days I'm not so cynical.
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jean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. I am too. But hope restores me. And I believe their last day is coming
We're living during an era (ick - just imagined bush enunciating 'era') of modern day bullying, thieving, raping, murdering robber barons, who use radical religious zealots as tools.

Their days are numbered and declining - Rove is a narcissist.

Stay strong and keep reading, writing and talking - even when you're feeling cynical and hopeless!


:grouphug:
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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
7. Make that "largely nonexistent"!
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
9. "Oh, so that's what an invisible grass-roots effort looks like!"
A reference to Time Bandits, in case anyone is keeping score.
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Loki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
10. Time tested Republican values
of bigotry, hatred and fear - yep that will get you elected every time. Keep pushing Karl, because this monster that you created will someday devour you.
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dbonds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
11. grass-roots-effort must have been the name of the program that
switched the votes.
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Melissa G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Exactly..His chubby little finger hit execute to the grass roots program
and VIOLA! instant invisible grass roots movement of Votes if not voters.
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jean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. in a simple world, a cartoon, perhaps, I would corral Rove in an
undisclosed location prior to, during and for long after any election. Make him write his own rules of war tome whilst in seclusion. I know he must have many hand-groomed underlings who could take over, but he seems to be the Big Cheese, so lock him up for the duration.
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Melissa G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #19
52. You are so kind...I'd exile Rove to Pluto n/t
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Amaryllis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #14
67. Brilliant, Melissa! Grass roots movement of votes, not voters.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
12. They should've created a visible facade of this, to make the lie more
believable. But then Rove is a genius. I know he is, he says so.
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
13. Is he stirring the pot? I cannot read. He is too creepy. n/t
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Verve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. I can't believe he said that!
Does he believe he's above the law and can start leaking the truth about the campaign ? Or is he playing with us?

I agree he is very creepy. He looks like a real live pilsbury dough boy that's rotten on the inside. What a combination.
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. He said it like that - just vague enough - so that it would play you off
me.

I have not seen or heard of any proof that the machines were toyed with... I do not believe for one second that the GOP (or agents thereof) did that.

He is encouraging your 'reality' and your 'fears' all the while making me pissed off because you 'theorists' are climbing out of the walls.

He is actually playing with your mental health.
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Verve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Applegrove, my mental health is just fine, thank you.
What are you doing in 2004 Elections Results and Discussion? I invite you to spend some more time here. Truth can change reality.
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. You offer absolutely no proof about diebold. None whatsoever. I rely
of facts.

You must admit that you have no facts on diebold (with the exception of some districts getting far too few machines).

Just the facts mack!
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #27
46. They started this crap before the election--Cheney saying they had
some sort of church-related voter registration secret weapon. But there is no evidence of it. The Democrats blew them away in new voter registration--almost 60/40.

Diebold is just one company--there are several that make electronic systems. And, yes, there is substantial testimony by voters themselves of turning the electronic "page" back to the presidential vote, in touchscreen systems, and finding their vote changed from Kerry to Bush. Only the most conscientious voters, who turned back to check that vote, would have noticed. And it was always Kerry changed to Bush, not the other way around. That cannot happen at random. There are also reports and studies of machines defaulting to Bush, and of party votes automatically deleting votes for Kerry. All this is documented in the Election Incidents Reports and in the Conyers investigation. What's even more important, though, is who controls the central electronic tabulators: Diebold & ES&S, both major contributors to Bush and to rightwing causes.

And most telling of all is that the software that controls the machines that were changing Kerry votes to Bush votes, and the machines that tabulate all the votes, is owned and controlled as secret, proprietary information, by major Bush donors and supporters. Anyone who says "I have seen no evidence of fraud" or "You don't have any proof" of fraud is suffering from a serious inability to connect the dots--and also very clearly is not familiar with the facts.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 03:37 AM
Response to Reply #27
57. There goddam well is probable cause, though.
You don't refuse to do an investigation because you haven't proven your results in advance.
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Amaryllis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #20
37. Not seen any proof...and how long have you been hanging out here?
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emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
16. Call the Cops, We Have Our Confession. . .
Now there is no doubt in my mind that they stole it.
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
18. Yup he is stirring the pot. Trying to get you guys going. One message
for the conspiracy theorists, one message for the moderates.

And he lies about compassion. Just like he does when they come up with 'healthy forests', and all the rest of the propaganda.

Rove got 5% more of the religious African American vote by appealing to ministers and another chunk of the Catholic vote (any Catholics in Ohio?). And in a close election that is all he needed.

So once again there is some information coming form the GOP and once again I - a moderate Democrat - hear it differently than you.

See how we have been separated? Given different realities?

Someone who had built things up like he has is not going to risk it all on phony diebold machines.
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. Bull. Kerry got the usual Democratic 91+% of the black vote.
Edited on Wed May-04-05 02:52 PM by TruthIsAll
Check the exit polls.
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. Exit polls were done mostly early in the day. People with early jobs
who may be church goers were not polled.

Exit polls are not polls. They are a sample (and a bad one at that).

They are more representative of people on fixed income and people out of the workforce..ergo... people who are more dependent on government programs.

EXIT POLLS ARE NOT SCIENTIFIC.
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #25
31. You are totally out of the realm here.
Edited on Wed May-04-05 04:11 PM by TruthIsAll
The exit poll of 13047 respondents was released 12:22am on Nov.3.
It had a 1% MOE.
Kerry won the poll 51-48%.

You are sadly lacking in your knowledge of the facts.
You have consistently contributed only noise to the discussions.

Until you have something of value to offer, your words will be taken as mere smoke.

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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. And any poll would have a margin of error of at least 5%, 19 times
out of twenty.

Where is that part of the poll? Because statisticians are not allowed to publish polls without putting out the margin of error.

Where Kerry was only 3 points ahead of Bush.

Where Bush voters may have been told not to answer any polls, or to lie in the polls..so that democrats would think they had won and watched the news earlier in the day and said "heck - we won..I can stay home and I don't have to pay a babysitter for the kids while I walk 20 minutes and stand in line for 2 hours".

That could easily have happened. The people doing the poll would have had no idea who they were talking to. Hell, they could have loaded up buses of repukes and driven them to 10 polls in a row all day long and had them walk out one by one (not having voted) and lied. Hell, the repuke war rooms could have been empty of staff all day long while they messed with the outside polls, one after the other.

There is room for dirty tricks there. There is no laws to polling that could be broken except for distance from the voting centre.

So put the margin of error up whenever you post your poll results. Unless you want to misrepresent the facts. The margin of error (often a paragraph long at least) belongs right beside the numbers of the poll (which is not scientific to begin with because they have no way of knowing they are actually getting a random sample).
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Verve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Were republicans asked to lie or not talk to pollsters?
For someone who is worried that we are all being misled, you need to look at your own assumptions.
Please show a link proving that republicans were told to lie or not talk to pollsters. Or are these "millions" of people still not talking? Are MILLIONS of invisible people still supposedly keeping this secret?

Now who's the conspiracy theorist?


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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #36
54. My is that when you do not know, keep your options open. Someone
states outright that the outside poll is proof of something. I point out it is not a scientific poll because of the many ways it is not a scientific poll, therefor cannot be used as proof.

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Verve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #54
61. Obviously you are not a scientist. n/t
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #35
47. APPLEGROVE, I WILL NOW PROVE TO YOU AND DU THAT YOU KNOW NOTHING
Edited on Wed May-04-05 08:13 PM by TruthIsAll
This is the Mitofsky MoE table.Since you will surely have trouble understanding it, let me help. Look at the right side.
Read the 8000+ respondents column: MOE = 1%



I posted this table of state exit poll MOE's and deviations in February. Where were you? Picking apples?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

WHAT DOES EDISON-MITOFSKY SAY ABOUT THE MOE FOR THE NATIONAL EXIT POLL?
CLUE: READ THE NOTES AT THE BOTTOM OF THE SCREEN:
"Sampling error for the OVERALL results is plus or minus one percentage point...."

HAD ENOUGH?

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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #47
56. So what I gather is that for the exit polls there was over 1% error rate.
Seems Bush got the majority of white men & women and got all evangelicals to vote and stole some of the protestant and catholic vote.

What would be telling is if we had these same numbers and percentages from the previous 3 presidential elections. That is something we could sink our teeth into. We could see the trends.

Also interesting that those with some college or one degree went to Bush (not all of them, but a majority).

It is the baby boomers it looks like (if you look at the age section) who went for Bush there.

No proof of funny stuff there.

And no - sampling people outside a polling station is not scientific. Because of length of lines, write in ballots, pre-voting, the fact that the election day is not a national holiday.. all these things and the fact that there is no way to verify the truth of what someone says or their origin.. it is not scientific.

Very close. I'll admit that Kerry should have won if it were not for the nefarious deals and tribalism. If you had real leaders who didn't target their opponents.. the voters like these bushites do.. Kerry would have won. It was very, very close. And we know that Rove had all the numbers a year before and knew he needed to move 3% of the black vote, a few catholics in Ohio to push that over the top for them. And they did it.

Let us hope that are guys are so organized that they fight smart and reach out to voters who may have been wedged.

There is still the '19 times out of 20' stat missing. I don't know where it went?

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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 06:57 AM
Response to Reply #56
60. You still have no clue. Its not 19 of 20.
Edited on Thu May-05-05 06:58 AM by TruthIsAll
"There is still the '19 times out of 20' stat missing. I don't know where it went?"

The chances of a given state deviating beyond the MoE to BUSH is a one-tailed test. That means that at a 95% confidence level, we are only concerned with the Bush tail of the Normal Distribution, or 2.5%. That makes the odds 1 out of 40 that Bush would exceed the Moe in a given state, not 1 out of 20.

For this to occur in at last 16 states, which it did, the probability is 1 out of 13.5 trillion.

All your errors have been corrected.

Now do us all a favor and learn this lesson: Unless you know what you are talking about and can back it up with numbers, it's best to keep quiet. No one has EVER been able to refute my calculations.
Even Febble knows better than to try to do that.

Once the RbR is taken care of (and it already has been), there will be no excuses left for you naysayers. You will be left with fraud as the only explanation.




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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #60
63. You the exit polls are not scientific. They are not a perfect sample.
And here we see they were added into the telephone polls (which may have been more scientific).

I see nowhere ..where you come to your conclusions that could not have won. He got the religious vote. He got the male vote. He got the White vote. He got the college graduate vote.

You state something as an abject truth which simply has not been proven in any way.

Those overwhelming numbers from exit polls in the morning & afternoon were skewed.


Please do not present something as proof when it proves nothing!

As if attitude alone will sell it! Your stats prove the race was close. I am surprised Bush got the majority of White Women and college graduates. But there it is right there in the stats. And they tell me nothing about Ohio or the closest races. There is no surprise the Bush won.. the stats were pretty close. And they are not scientific so they really say very little at all.
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. Oh, give it up already. You are just displaying your lack of understanding
And I am trying to be very courteous in using those words.

You refuse to admit that you were wrong regarding the MoE etc.

Now you resort to RW talking points which are no longer even used as excuses.

Don't you know when it's time to give up?
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. Why don't you do some research and find out what the 'statistically
significant' percentages were in the previous 5 Presidential elections. That would show something.

And I am not a freeper. I just want DUers to invest their strength and their might in the battles where there is proof of nefariousness. As in the wedging and the growing down of the Repuke followers.

There are many, many issues we should be investing time in.

A close election being stolen by machines is not one of them.Simply because there is no proof. It benefits the GOP a great deal for Duers to be so divided.

It scares moderates.

I'm for a big DU & Democratic tent.

I'm for people grieving and stepping back from 'details' that could be read so many ways. And being more discerning in where they invest. I am for people accepting the awful truth about this WH and the lengths they will go to (as is getting the Vatican to help influence the election or vetting black voters and not Hispanic or White voters for previous felony charges).

We need all of us.

I will not give up on you.
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Amaryllis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #25
38. Just the facts, please. You are parroting MSM spin.
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #38
66. You don't think that exit polls that came out late afternoon were done
earlier in the day? That they hid people who worked, people who voted from abroad, people who were waiting in lines?

And then you take those results and co to the electoral college.

Are you saying that this did not happen?



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Verve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. Are you saying I'm not a moderate democrat because I feel the election was
STOLEN?

Give me a break!
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Please. You are not moderate if you go to an extreme and disregard
traditional methods of fact finding. If you go on your worst fears and follow that - despite any proof - you have been extremed on the emotional scale. You have not stepped back and grieved the loss of the election (you think it could be overturned.. and you want to have that). You have not said:"well the Bushites are awful and liars but they got re-elected and I have to fight to keep the stealing of hearts and minds from happening again. Americans should be voting on their own best interests and not narrow tribal needs..because we are a democracy.. and I will reach out to people under the big tent who do not think exactly as I do because that is what democracy and its big tents are".

I always say there is much evidence of voting irregularities. But so far no evidence on diebold. For sure electoral reform needs to take place and paper trails need to be legislated everywhere.. to renew and improve the trust between the voters and the results.

We are dealing with propagandists here. The scales have much less to do with the domestic issues (not why people voted) and more to do with one feeling or another. And everyone thinks they are justified in their feelings. And yes - that puts you at one end of the scale. You have been radicalized. Emotionally yes.

I agree Bush & co are the creepiest bunch of freaks the American electorate has ever seen. Much worse than Nixon.


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Verve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. Your attitude is exactly what Bush and Rove want in a Democrat.
They want us to "grieve" over their rightful ownership of the White House.

They want us to resign to the fact that despite the overwhelming Democratic grassroots effort in November that Bush won by a mandate.

They don't want us to question secret proprietary software.

They don't want us to question the substantial monetary support the major voting companies gave to the Bush campaign.

They don't want us to question, period.

If accepting a fraudulent election is what you call "moderate" than our country is in deep trouble!

(I know there are far more issues that surrounded the election but I gotta run. Maybe someone else can fill in what I left out for you.)
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. By grieving I mean you accept that they won the election. Then
Edited on Wed May-04-05 04:02 PM by applegrove
you step back and you accept that there is evil in the world. And you have the strength and the knowledge to fight against the horrid cabal in an adult way. Where you use your adult might (pocket book, reading skills, activism, demonstrations, volunteerism, teaching skills, empathy, life decisions, consumer decisions, voting patterns, leadership skills) against them.

You are more discerning then of where you fight. You do not invest hours in fighting for overturning an election (and impeaching a president) that will never happen because there is no proof. You fight in the areas where there is proof of their dirty deeds and you fight for the hearts and minds of people, you reach out to groups you have been separated from with empathy, you work to build a strong and varied coalition of your own party, and you invest your time in building up our combined strengths and not isolating yourself from the rest of the people..who have grieved and accepted the election was lost.

And by being more discerning you stop and think before you emotionally invest in a fight. That way you do not fall into the traps the GOP & this Bush cabal sets up for us. To divide us.

He is stirring the pot. Don't let your emotions be stirred up. It is bullshit. He purposely was vague about Ohio. He needs you to be running around looking for proof he knows you will never find. That keeps you busy. Don't fall for it!
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Verve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #30
42. He is purposely vague about Ohio because he has to be!
Your so called "conspiracy theorists" on this forum are not raving lunatics. Many are professionals who felt and continue to feel there were too many discrepancies in the November election to make sense. Looking into these discrepancies is a healthy reaction!

It's one thing to be in shock and not move on as you're telling us to do, yet it's another thing to accept discrepancies and the bogus excuses Bushco is fabricating without looking into these discrepancies. That is not healthy!

I don't believe many people here still believe we can overturn the election or even impeach. Yet, for the future of our democracy, continuing to look at the discrepancies of the November election is imperative. How dare you imply this isn't important.



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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 03:42 AM
Response to Reply #30
58. Too bad the Republicans don't give up as easily as the Dems
They are fighting the Gregoire election in WA state tooth and nail. It is never over for them, ever.

Again, we have probable cause. Why don't you want to find out the truth? Would you ignore a corpse in your back yard because the mere presence of a dead body does not prove foul play? Just get over it and move on because the body can't come back to life?
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liam_laddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #26
44. polling
applegrove, from earlier posts, you apparently don't live in Ohio.
So you don't know merde about what went on here except third-hand. You also don't know merde about polling and sampling. Polls of 8,000 or more responders have an accuracy
of +/-1%. The NEP had over 73,000 samples, of which a "national" sample of 13,047 in about 250 carefully selected precincts was used to predict the 51-48 Kerry margin. It was only
the next day, 11/3 about 1:30 p.m., that another 613 "ghost"
samples appeared, to match the rigged results. It takes about
six hours from the final reported results on the evening of 11/2 for the riggers to add needed votes in those precincts, usually
high-bush, where the surplus votes wouldn't be so obvious.
You are very uninformed for a "moderate Democrat." I'd say your
profile more closely matches a non-reality-based Rove plant.
EVERY evidence points to a Kerry win...get over your own denial!
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Amaryllis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 03:13 PM
Response to Original message
28. Invisibly embedded in DRE software?
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liam_laddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #28
45. embedded software
Edited on Wed May-04-05 07:48 PM by liam_laddie
In Harris County, TX (Houston) the Hart Intercivic "eSlate" DRE's
were programmed to deliver a Bush vote on straight Dem party
ballots; that is, the machine recorded all Dem votes EXCEPT for
President. This ploy showed up in NINE states. The ONLY way to confirm a Kerry vote was to scroll the cursor back through
the five-screen ballot two more times to cast the intended, complete Dem straight-party ballot. And it took (23) turns of the cursor wheel, each time, to return to top-of-ballot. I'm aware of this because a Houstonian I correspond with there is a savvy IT person, and knew what to look for. How many trusting Dems, in good faith, cast their straight-party ticket, and unknowingly added a bush vote? Yet applegrove persists in his/her delusions...
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Amaryllis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. Perhaps largely invisible means invisible to all but savvy IT folks?
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liam_laddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #49
53. BINGO!
A real Frank Luntz wordcrafting....largely invisible..inDEED!
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MissWaverly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
33. largely invisible like the largely invisible missing rare coins
I am a democrat and I don't understand the concept of largely invisible, you have to get a big time Republican fund raiser to
explain.

The number of missing rare coins purchased with state money controlled by local Republican fund-raiser Tom Noe now totals 121, documents obtained by The Blade show.

An accounting firm hired to check the inventory of rare coins purchased by Mr. Noe or his associates for the state found last year that not only were the coins missing, but 119 coins were possibly stolen by a Colorado coin dealer, according to a 2004 audit report released last week. (They meant to say largely invisible)

Mr. Noe hired the dealer to run a coin subsidiary funded with money from the Ohio Bureau of Workers' Compensation, the agency charged with paying the medical bills and providing income to workers injured on the job.

http://americablog.blogspot.com/2005/05/ohio-gops-coin-...
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Amaryllis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #33
39. maybe largely invisbible is like sort of pregnant?
Edited on Wed May-04-05 07:23 PM by Amaryllis
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MissWaverly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. you got it!
Like the largely invisible money that missing in Iraq. Now that's what I call LARGELY invisible, of course, being democratic there's
subtle nuances I miss about any missing money, a lot of people just jump up with the word "stolen" but reframed to "largely invisible" it does kind of trip off the tongue.
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libertypirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
34. He has been defensive over the last week...
I have never seen this guy so much on the D.
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 07:33 PM
Response to Original message
43. Ahh, like those invisible 2002 Georgia
"angry white male voters" who defeated Max Cleland. You know...those voters who never showed up in the Credit for Voting Report 6 months later........

Invisible. That's it! Invisible voters. And, by golly, they're all republicans!

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Amaryllis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #43
50. How bout invisible like phantom votes? Phantoms are invisible...
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MissWaverly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #43
51. I said the election was stolen by the invisible man in the machine
but of course, only a great Republican like Karl Rove could truly assess the situation with the term "largely invisible"
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libertypirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 12:39 AM
Response to Original message
55. He can't hide the fact that nobody saw it
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 04:50 AM
Response to Original message
59. "shaping" history? They're REWRITING it!
And I wouldn't call SOS Blackwell "invisible" or "grass-roots". Maybe he's talking about the "grass-roots" folks handing ou tthe fliers telling Demcratic voters to vote on Wednesday. Or maybe the grass roots guys from Texas who called Democrats and told them if they any parking tickets they'd be arrested when they voted. And, of course, the "largely invisible grass roots" ES&S technicians who tampered with the tabulators before the recounts.

Or, as many have suggested, the largely invisible rigging of the DRE's and tabulators. I guess that's about as close to the "roots" as you can get.
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Amaryllis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #59
68. It's like Melissa said; grass roots votes, not grass roots voters.
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bunny planet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
62. invisible and fraudulent. They're shaping history alright, by breaking the
law every chance they get and stealing 3 elections to date. I think Karl is getting a bit too outspoken about his 'winning' strategies, he might just slip up soon, he's so drunk with power. What a disgraceful person he is.
:puke:
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