Rove says win due to GOPs "largely INVISIBLE grass-roots effort" in Ohio
May 3, 2005
Rove says GOP ready to keep power for years
by Bill Sloat Plain Dealer Reporter
Sharonville, Ohio- White House political operative Karl Rove told a Republican rally in Ohio Monday that Democrats faded from national power because the GOP has claimed the "mantle of idealism" over the past 40 years.
Rove told the 700 Republicans at the dinner that the Kerry campaign never had a chance in Ohio because the GOP had a huge grass-roots effort that was largely invisible but still potent across the state.
"Election night, they thought they were going to win," Rove said of the Kerry forces. "And they thought they were going to win because they thought they had us beat in Ohio."
"We defend time-tested values," Rove said, adding that the Republican Party is determined to reform and update 20th century programs such as Social Security that will be confronted by demographic upheavals in the decades ahead.
Putting aside nefarious interpretations, this goes along with many legitimate interpretations of what happened. Bush got many more votes than expected from exurban and other areas.
Of course it is necessary to continue to investiagate any possible outright fraud, and change the laws which allowed for voter suppression (which by itself might have made the difference in Ohio). However it also does not help us long run to ignore the fact that there were people the Democrats didn't account for who the Republicans were able to mobilize.
This is particularly important as so many people voted Republican contrary to both their economic interests and contrary to their political views due to the tremendous misinformation campaign the Republicans had.
We are already at a disadvantage in much of the country due to the right wing noise machine. Having areas which in a sense really were invisible (because the were ignored by Democrats and virtually left uncontested) just makes the Republicans job easier.
I believe that my Ohio vote was stolen by the Diebold electronic systems used to tabulate votes in this state. I believe that my Ohio vote has been stolen by a rigged system set up under the watch of a Republican secretary of state and a Republican-controlled state elections office. 1. I believe that thousands of votes cast by those good hard working people who came out for the first time to vote, who voted for the first time in years, who stood in line for two, four, six or even eight hours to vote when they needed to be working, or taking care of their kids, but they went to vote because they knew they could make a difference--- their votes have been stolen by rigged electronic tabulation here in Ohio.
I don't know if your vote was stolen, but such charges should definately be investigated.
Regardless of whether it was stolen, there really were "invisible voters" and Democrats need to adjust strategy to this. We need to both ensure that votes are not stolen in the future, and to pay attention to areas where the Republicans really did get votes.
48. I'm from Maryland, my vote was stolen, machine default to GWB
But I copied that from the link, was it investigated, no, nothing to see here. That's what the Conyers investigation tried to do, but it was toothless because the Republicans prevented an investigation with subpoena power by the House Judiciary Committee, who would investigate in Ohio, Fraudwell, I mean Blackwell????
8. Yeah, and the Supreme Court five will be imprisoned over Dec 12th.
Sorry, I hope you're right, but I have little hope. SCOTUS ruled on December 12th, 2000, that while votes were cast in the election that were not counted, the election could be decided without counting them. No one fought. No one grabbed a pitchfork. Very few even wrote good editorials.
No one cares. Americans don't want democracy, and they certainly haven't earned it. They want bread and circuses. McDonald's, Starbucks and American Idol. The rest they won't care about until they are behind bars being jabbed with cattle prods for thinking a non-approved thought.
19. in a simple world, a cartoon, perhaps, I would corral Rove in an
undisclosed location prior to, during and for long after any election. Make him write his own rules of war tome whilst in seclusion. I know he must have many hand-groomed underlings who could take over, but he seems to be the Big Cheese, so lock him up for the duration.
46. They started this crap before the election--Cheney saying they had
some sort of church-related voter registration secret weapon. But there is no evidence of it. The Democrats blew them away in new voter registration--almost 60/40.
Diebold is just one company--there are several that make electronic systems. And, yes, there is substantial testimony by voters themselves of turning the electronic "page" back to the presidential vote, in touchscreen systems, and finding their vote changed from Kerry to Bush. Only the most conscientious voters, who turned back to check that vote, would have noticed. And it was always Kerry changed to Bush, not the other way around. That cannot happen at random. There are also reports and studies of machines defaulting to Bush, and of party votes automatically deleting votes for Kerry. All this is documented in the Election Incidents Reports and in the Conyers investigation. What's even more important, though, is who controls the central electronic tabulators: Diebold & ES&S, both major contributors to Bush and to rightwing causes.
And most telling of all is that the software that controls the machines that were changing Kerry votes to Bush votes, and the machines that tabulate all the votes, is owned and controlled as secret, proprietary information, by major Bush donors and supporters. Anyone who says "I have seen no evidence of fraud" or "You don't have any proof" of fraud is suffering from a serious inability to connect the dots--and also very clearly is not familiar with the facts.
35. And any poll would have a margin of error of at least 5%, 19 times
out of twenty.
Where is that part of the poll? Because statisticians are not allowed to publish polls without putting out the margin of error.
Where Kerry was only 3 points ahead of Bush.
Where Bush voters may have been told not to answer any polls, or to lie in the polls..so that democrats would think they had won and watched the news earlier in the day and said "heck - we won..I can stay home and I don't have to pay a babysitter for the kids while I walk 20 minutes and stand in line for 2 hours".
That could easily have happened. The people doing the poll would have had no idea who they were talking to. Hell, they could have loaded up buses of repukes and driven them to 10 polls in a row all day long and had them walk out one by one (not having voted) and lied. Hell, the repuke war rooms could have been empty of staff all day long while they messed with the outside polls, one after the other.
There is room for dirty tricks there. There is no laws to polling that could be broken except for distance from the voting centre.
So put the margin of error up whenever you post your poll results. Unless you want to misrepresent the facts. The margin of error (often a paragraph long at least) belongs right beside the numbers of the poll (which is not scientific to begin with because they have no way of knowing they are actually getting a random sample).
36. Were republicans asked to lie or not talk to pollsters?
For someone who is worried that we are all being misled, you need to look at your own assumptions. Please show a link proving that republicans were told to lie or not talk to pollsters. Or are these "millions" of people still not talking? Are MILLIONS of invisible people still supposedly keeping this secret?
WHAT DOES EDISON-MITOFSKY SAY ABOUT THE MOE FOR THE NATIONAL EXIT POLL? CLUE: READ THE NOTES AT THE BOTTOM OF THE SCREEN: "Sampling error for the OVERALL results is plus or minus one percentage point...."
56. So what I gather is that for the exit polls there was over 1% error rate.
Seems Bush got the majority of white men & women and got all evangelicals to vote and stole some of the protestant and catholic vote.
What would be telling is if we had these same numbers and percentages from the previous 3 presidential elections. That is something we could sink our teeth into. We could see the trends.
Also interesting that those with some college or one degree went to Bush (not all of them, but a majority).
It is the baby boomers it looks like (if you look at the age section) who went for Bush there.
No proof of funny stuff there.
And no - sampling people outside a polling station is not scientific. Because of length of lines, write in ballots, pre-voting, the fact that the election day is not a national holiday.. all these things and the fact that there is no way to verify the truth of what someone says or their origin.. it is not scientific.
Very close. I'll admit that Kerry should have won if it were not for the nefarious deals and tribalism. If you had real leaders who didn't target their opponents.. the voters like these bushites do.. Kerry would have won. It was very, very close. And we know that Rove had all the numbers a year before and knew he needed to move 3% of the black vote, a few catholics in Ohio to push that over the top for them. And they did it.
Let us hope that are guys are so organized that they fight smart and reach out to voters who may have been wedged.
There is still the '19 times out of 20' stat missing. I don't know where it went?
"There is still the '19 times out of 20' stat missing. I don't know where it went?"
The chances of a given state deviating beyond the MoE to BUSH is a one-tailed test. That means that at a 95% confidence level, we are only concerned with the Bush tail of the Normal Distribution, or 2.5%. That makes the odds 1 out of 40 that Bush would exceed the Moe in a given state, not 1 out of 20.
For this to occur in at last 16 states, which it did, the probability is 1 out of 13.5 trillion.
All your errors have been corrected.
Now do us all a favor and learn this lesson: Unless you know what you are talking about and can back it up with numbers, it's best to keep quiet. No one has EVER been able to refute my calculations. Even Febble knows better than to try to do that.
Once the RbR is taken care of (and it already has been), there will be no excuses left for you naysayers. You will be left with fraud as the only explanation.
63. You the exit polls are not scientific. They are not a perfect sample.
And here we see they were added into the telephone polls (which may have been more scientific).
I see nowhere ..where you come to your conclusions that could not have won. He got the religious vote. He got the male vote. He got the White vote. He got the college graduate vote.
You state something as an abject truth which simply has not been proven in any way.
Those overwhelming numbers from exit polls in the morning & afternoon were skewed.
Please do not present something as proof when it proves nothing!
As if attitude alone will sell it! Your stats prove the race was close. I am surprised Bush got the majority of White Women and college graduates. But there it is right there in the stats. And they tell me nothing about Ohio or the closest races. There is no surprise the Bush won.. the stats were pretty close. And they are not scientific so they really say very little at all.
65. Why don't you do some research and find out what the 'statistically
significant' percentages were in the previous 5 Presidential elections. That would show something.
And I am not a freeper. I just want DUers to invest their strength and their might in the battles where there is proof of nefariousness. As in the wedging and the growing down of the Repuke followers.
There are many, many issues we should be investing time in.
A close election being stolen by machines is not one of them.Simply because there is no proof. It benefits the GOP a great deal for Duers to be so divided.
It scares moderates.
I'm for a big DU & Democratic tent.
I'm for people grieving and stepping back from 'details' that could be read so many ways. And being more discerning in where they invest. I am for people accepting the awful truth about this WH and the lengths they will go to (as is getting the Vatican to help influence the election or vetting black voters and not Hispanic or White voters for previous felony charges).
26. Please. You are not moderate if you go to an extreme and disregard
traditional methods of fact finding. If you go on your worst fears and follow that - despite any proof - you have been extremed on the emotional scale. You have not stepped back and grieved the loss of the election (you think it could be overturned.. and you want to have that). You have not said:"well the Bushites are awful and liars but they got re-elected and I have to fight to keep the stealing of hearts and minds from happening again. Americans should be voting on their own best interests and not narrow tribal needs..because we are a democracy.. and I will reach out to people under the big tent who do not think exactly as I do because that is what democracy and its big tents are".
I always say there is much evidence of voting irregularities. But so far no evidence on diebold. For sure electoral reform needs to take place and paper trails need to be legislated everywhere.. to renew and improve the trust between the voters and the results.
We are dealing with propagandists here. The scales have much less to do with the domestic issues (not why people voted) and more to do with one feeling or another. And everyone thinks they are justified in their feelings. And yes - that puts you at one end of the scale. You have been radicalized. Emotionally yes.
I agree Bush & co are the creepiest bunch of freaks the American electorate has ever seen. Much worse than Nixon.
30. By grieving I mean you accept that they won the election. Then
Edited on Wed May-04-05 04:02 PM by applegrove
you step back and you accept that there is evil in the world. And you have the strength and the knowledge to fight against the horrid cabal in an adult way. Where you use your adult might (pocket book, reading skills, activism, demonstrations, volunteerism, teaching skills, empathy, life decisions, consumer decisions, voting patterns, leadership skills) against them.
You are more discerning then of where you fight. You do not invest hours in fighting for overturning an election (and impeaching a president) that will never happen because there is no proof. You fight in the areas where there is proof of their dirty deeds and you fight for the hearts and minds of people, you reach out to groups you have been separated from with empathy, you work to build a strong and varied coalition of your own party, and you invest your time in building up our combined strengths and not isolating yourself from the rest of the people..who have grieved and accepted the election was lost.
And by being more discerning you stop and think before you emotionally invest in a fight. That way you do not fall into the traps the GOP & this Bush cabal sets up for us. To divide us.
He is stirring the pot. Don't let your emotions be stirred up. It is bullshit. He purposely was vague about Ohio. He needs you to be running around looking for proof he knows you will never find. That keeps you busy. Don't fall for it!
42. He is purposely vague about Ohio because he has to be!
Your so called "conspiracy theorists" on this forum are not raving lunatics. Many are professionals who felt and continue to feel there were too many discrepancies in the November election to make sense. Looking into these discrepancies is a healthy reaction!
It's one thing to be in shock and not move on as you're telling us to do, yet it's another thing to accept discrepancies and the bogus excuses Bushco is fabricating without looking into these discrepancies. That is not healthy!
I don't believe many people here still believe we can overturn the election or even impeach. Yet, for the future of our democracy, continuing to look at the discrepancies of the November election is imperative. How dare you imply this isn't important.
58. Too bad the Republicans don't give up as easily as the Dems
They are fighting the Gregoire election in WA state tooth and nail. It is never over for them, ever.
Again, we have probable cause. Why don't you want to find out the truth? Would you ignore a corpse in your back yard because the mere presence of a dead body does not prove foul play? Just get over it and move on because the body can't come back to life?
applegrove, from earlier posts, you apparently don't live in Ohio. So you don't know merde about what went on here except third-hand. You also don't know merde about polling and sampling. Polls of 8,000 or more responders have an accuracy of +/-1%. The NEP had over 73,000 samples, of which a "national" sample of 13,047 in about 250 carefully selected precincts was used to predict the 51-48 Kerry margin. It was only the next day, 11/3 about 1:30 p.m., that another 613 "ghost" samples appeared, to match the rigged results. It takes about six hours from the final reported results on the evening of 11/2 for the riggers to add needed votes in those precincts, usually high-bush, where the surplus votes wouldn't be so obvious. You are very uninformed for a "moderate Democrat." I'd say your profile more closely matches a non-reality-based Rove plant. EVERY evidence points to a Kerry win...get over your own denial!
In Harris County, TX (Houston) the Hart Intercivic "eSlate" DRE's were programmed to deliver a Bush vote on straight Dem party ballots; that is, the machine recorded all Dem votes EXCEPT for President. This ploy showed up in NINE states. The ONLY way to confirm a Kerry vote was to scroll the cursor back through the five-screen ballot two more times to cast the intended, complete Dem straight-party ballot. And it took (23) turns of the cursor wheel, each time, to return to top-of-ballot. I'm aware of this because a Houstonian I correspond with there is a savvy IT person, and knew what to look for. How many trusting Dems, in good faith, cast their straight-party ticket, and unknowingly added a bush vote? Yet applegrove persists in his/her delusions...
33. largely invisible like the largely invisible missing rare coins
I am a democrat and I don't understand the concept of largely invisible, you have to get a big time Republican fund raiser to explain.
The number of missing rare coins purchased with state money controlled by local Republican fund-raiser Tom Noe now totals 121, documents obtained by The Blade show.
An accounting firm hired to check the inventory of rare coins purchased by Mr. Noe or his associates for the state found last year that not only were the coins missing, but 119 coins were possibly stolen by a Colorado coin dealer, according to a 2004 audit report released last week. (They meant to say largely invisible)
Mr. Noe hired the dealer to run a coin subsidiary funded with money from the Ohio Bureau of Workers' Compensation, the agency charged with paying the medical bills and providing income to workers injured on the job.
Like the largely invisible money that missing in Iraq. Now that's what I call LARGELY invisible, of course, being democratic there's subtle nuances I miss about any missing money, a lot of people just jump up with the word "stolen" but reframed to "largely invisible" it does kind of trip off the tongue.
And I wouldn't call SOS Blackwell "invisible" or "grass-roots". Maybe he's talking about the "grass-roots" folks handing ou tthe fliers telling Demcratic voters to vote on Wednesday. Or maybe the grass roots guys from Texas who called Democrats and told them if they any parking tickets they'd be arrested when they voted. And, of course, the "largely invisible grass roots" ES&S technicians who tampered with the tabulators before the recounts.
Or, as many have suggested, the largely invisible rigging of the DRE's and tabulators. I guess that's about as close to the "roots" as you can get.
62. invisible and fraudulent. They're shaping history alright, by breaking the
law every chance they get and stealing 3 elections to date. I think Karl is getting a bit too outspoken about his 'winning' strategies, he might just slip up soon, he's so drunk with power. What a disgraceful person he is. :puke:
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