Kerry still working on stolen election. If this is true, it's good news.

[Amaryllis]

This was blogged today on http://www.bradblog.com/archives/00001340.htm#comments

COMMENT #13
...jen said on 4/21/2005 @ 3:05pm PT... Anyways, I wanted to share this bit of happy "news" I got this morning! I posted this earlier on my "home" blog and am just copying that post here:

When I got home I got a phone call from someone working for Kerry. They called to thank me for signing the "Kids Come First" Act, and of course for $.

Before he could get to any of that I expressed to him that my #1 concern is with the election system, went over some of the problems from the '04 election, and asked if he knew if Kerry was aware that the election was stolen. He said he is very aware of it and one of the reasons he's not speaking out is because they are still in the process of gathering all the information and proof they can before publicly addressing it.

He said they knew that if they tried to address the stolen election before they had "all their ducks in a row" (my words, not his) they would be labeled conspiracy nuts and ridiculed to the point of people not believing any of what they said. He said as far as the paperless voting machines that it would take longer than if there had been a paper traill, but that it is still traceable. He also said the same thing about the Vote Tabulators - that even if the hacking of the machines was done in a way that couldn't be detected, that they can detect it but it takes longer...

I didn't ask how or any details of what's being done, but I thought it was somewhat encouraging and interesting that Kerry is in fact part of the investigations and discovery process - makes me wonder who else is involved that is just being very quite about it!

[LatePeriduct]

1. I knew John Kerry was always with us!

Its never in his character to abandon a case, until it has embarked to its logical and inevitable conclusion.

I wonder if he knows about the phantom voters yet, hoo boy there's a whole lot going on behind the scenes that nobody is even aware of.....

[Amaryllis]

6. Sure seems that way to me, from everything I know about his character.

[BlueIris]

60. Same here. My first comment at my first DFA meeting on Dec. 1st?

"John Kerry wouldn't abandon us; John Kerry wouldn't do that."

Nobody believed me, but I still knew. We have that bond you see, he and I. I knew he wasn't done yet.

[Jo March]

79. Oh, no he's not. Don't you know? He's a coward

He's a loser who ran crying to his Skull and Bones master, *.

:sarcasm:

[BlueIris]

100. What else can we expect from someone who prolonged Vietnam?

Two extra years? Through his own personal actions?

[Wickerman]

2. It is encouraging but perhaps self-defeating to leak to someone who posts

on a blog that is read by many who post it other places who post it other...

IF you are trying to keep it quiet...

[Amaryllis]

5. I thought about that, but I don't think this would get anywhere near MSM.

[Wickerman]

7. true 'nuff

they would ignore it anyway.

After getting hopes up too many times I am prone to suspecting EVERYTHING.

nice bit anyway!

:thumbsup:

[FreedomAngel82]

18. Why would they?

They'd just be labeled consperiacy theorists so that's why you need the proof. I don't know of who all is aware of BradBlog.com unless you are active in politics like on site's like this.

[kster]

12. I hope it mean's

his ducks are in a row, and its time to start getting the story out there, meaning Kerry is going to go public with it soon. Lets hope.

[FreedomAngel82]

19. I thought it was strange

how he was talking about this not too long ago. :shrug:

[Amaryllis]

37. About what? Can you say more?

[Wilms]

13. Wickerman is this thread's voice of reason.

We are not the MSM.

But we sure are media.

Post accordingly.

[Amaryllis]

20. So do you think there is anything in here that shouldn't have been posted?

See Freedomangel's post number 18. That's my take.

[Wilms]

22. Yep. The entire thread !

:hide:

:hi:

[Amaryllis]

26. If that's true, then the guy who told her this stuff, if indeed he

actually did, and if indeed it is actually true, never should have said anything, and Kerry should have sworn them all to secrecy, and Teresa never should have practially come out and said the eleciton was stolen.

[Wilms]

28. Sort of agree.

But at some point the national discussion has to begin. Perhaps this is revving the engine.

[tavalon]

53. yeah,

I think they're leaking it. To what end I'm not sure.

[Wickerman]

32. Whoa, hold on there big fella

I've been called a lot of things, but voice of reason is beyond the pale of the usual, that is for sure.

:D

Speaking for myself, put me in the skeptical column - or the I'll believe it when they frog march them off to Leavenworth column.

[Amaryllis]

34. Me too, which is why I said "IF this is true" (big IF) in the subject head

then it's good news. I wanna believe it, but after the whole lead up to Jan. 6, I'm with you. Leavenworth... now that's a really sweet thought.

[Wilms]

35. Well, let's do a little "Creative Visualization".

[Amaryllis]

38. He gets to wear an orange shirt? !!!

[Wickerman]

39. I can FEEL it! I can, I can!

:rofl:

[KaliTracy]

42. oh my...

:spray:

[Amaryllis]

49. Is that kool aid?

[KaliTracy]

50. nope.... it's the Anti-kool aid!

:rofl:

[AndyTiedye]

84. He Can Have a Cell In This Place

the U.N. Prison at the Peace Palace in the Hague.
Home of convicted war criminals. pResidential pardons not accepted.
Boosh** obviously has nightmares about this place, considering how
he goes on about the ICC.

[BlueIris]

138. I'm with Andy. Damn, now THAT's a visual I can believe in. n/t

[babylonsister]

3. Great news, and I totally respect

bradblog, so it's all good. Thanks!

[Vektor]

4. I thought as much...

This version of events makes a hell of a lot more sense than any other I have heard. I think the newfound vigor, and dare I say, aggression in Kerry's persona as of late in the senate is a good indicator he's pissed, and definitely has a lot up his sleeve. He has really been vocal about sticking it to the Repukes recently, and I think it has a lot to do with knowing full well he was duped out of the presidency.

[Amaryllis]

8. It's the only version I've heard that makes sense, also. Couldn't wrap

my brain around the other versions. I wondered who this guy is who told her this stuff and how close he is to the source, and if he really knows what he is talking about, but it does fit. Kerry is not one to give up. Did you read this?

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2004/102904.html

or this?

Follow the Money by David Sirota and Jonathan Baskin
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2004/0409.sirota.html

He is no quitter, and he is not afraid to take on serious power, but not before he has his ducks in a row. The guy is methodical.

[Vektor]

15. Which is exactly why

I would not be inclined to believe that he's doing nothing. When has he ever done nothing? He's a damn crafty prosecuting attorney, and I have no doubt he's working in the same methodical "under the radar" way he always has. I'm not bothered a bit by his quiescence on the matter. I have learned from experience, and from observing Kerry's investigative methods over the years, that he takes his time and does things "just so" in order to get the desired result. He's doing everything right. Investigations do take time, but we will hear something in good time. I'm sure of it.

[FreedomAngel82]

24. I remember

watching the PBS "Indecision 2004" video and there was one guy who ran against Kerry for the Senate one year and he did like Bush and used his record against him. After they showed a video clip of the two debating the guy said that Kerry was a very smart politician and always made sure he did certain votes right and whatnot. For the most part I haven't been disappointed except for Negraphonte (sP?) and the Iraq bill. I do understand about the Iraq bill because of the whole thing from the first time but Negraphonte?! Oy. Didn't he deal with him with Iran/Contra?

[LatePeriduct]

29. Its a setup....

Negroponte is being put out there on a fishing expedition, the only reason there wasn't a blockade around him is they know he holds some part in the third act.

[Amaryllis]

36. Third act??

[LatePeriduct]

52. Quote by Ghandi.

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you"

Negroponte is still in contact with all his Iran-Contra friends, he makes for good bait. He has the biggest mouth of all Bush's nominees and I bet there is someone just jotting down notes of what he says....

[meganmonkey]

66. Don't forget: THEN YOU WIN!!!

The happy ending :D

[FreedomAngel82]

68. Yep

Now they're fighting us.

[LatePeriduct]

96. And trying to remove checks and balances....

Congress wants to become a dictatorship.

[KaliTracy]

47. and he went on his trip to Europe and the Middle East prior to * -- there

could have been a little "hang in there, it'll be over soon" kind of discussion (4 years, earlier? who knows?) But when * went over there, suddenly everyone was willing to give him another chance.

http://www.boston.com/news/world/europe/articles/2005/01/15/kerry_urges_repairing_us_europe_ties/

[rainy]

9. Agreed, plus, Michael Moore has been strangely silent as well

as many others who know the election was stolen. They said things in the beginning that hinted to the silence for now approach. Remember Susan Sarandon's remarks about the secret workings? This is good news. Also note that Theresa was talking about voting irregularities too.

[Amaryllis]

14. OMG. I just had a fantasy flash...what if they found hard, irrefuable

evidence, and Kerry, MM, Susan Sanrandon, etc. etc. etc. called this giant press conference, all of them at the same time in different parts of the country, or maybe they all come together in DC, and spill the beans? Just a fantasy...

Kerry has got to know, with what Teresa said, and he isn't one to sit around and twiddle his thumbs while Rome burns. Fraud is hard to prove, or so the attorneys say...

[Wilms]

16. Help me understand.

My take on it is the MM & SS would be the last people that should join Kerry in announcing anything.

I mean, I'd feel good--until the backlash.

If the election was stolen and we need MM and SS to help get that across, I'm afraid that won't fly.

Perhaps I'm being too harsh. It's not like you suggested that Whoopi should grab her crotch in order to help remove * from office.

[Amaryllis]

21. It was just a fantasy flash, Wilms. Those aren't logical:) I wasn't

proposing it as a plan of action!

[FreepFryer]

25. Look to the Watergate scandal for an idea how it'll play out...

...it took 18 months after the break-in for those guilty to be found so.

And don't forget - back then, Nixon's Attorney General and others went to prison as a result.

Believe!

[Wilms]

31. Dig it!

And not one celebrity was required.

With the exception of Archibald Cox. :)

[Montauk6]

129. That was also a different era back then, unfortunately

That's when you had principled Republicans, a media in pursuit of the truth, and committed Democrats (namely, those in elected positions).

[Amaryllis]

159. And real investigative journalism in MSM, not just Brad and Pitt. Uh, I

meant Brad Friedman and Will Pitt! CAn't forget the others like Bob Fitrakis, etc.

[BlueIris]

62. Moore, pluse Dean, Gore, Sharpton, Kennedy and the Clintons. n/t

[tommcintyre]

10. Hmm... I must remain skeptical until...

he actually does something of substance on this issue.

Also, who is "jen"? I don't know at this point. Did this REALLY happen? There are reasons why people from "either side" may want to spread such "disinfo" (if that's what it is).

But thanks for posting this. It's good to have ALL available information. I just think we have to take everything we hear "with a grain of salt" until it's proved - or disproved.

[Amaryllis]

11. Which is why I said "IF this is true, it's good news." Strong salt grain:)

[bleever]

33. Yes tom, salt it all, and

keep doing what you're doing.

And, I do think that the power of the "tainted source" tactic to dismiss evidence has a short shelf-life, and woe to those who think they can ride this pony all the way to Valhalla.

My view is that eventually the stench of the rotting carcass of this "election" will be so universally acknowledged the nobody can get away with pointing at the "liberals" and saying, "THEY farted!"


:thumbsup:

[Amaryllis]

45. THEY farted! Love the analogy, Bleever.

[jen4clark]

136. I'm jen

I wanted to post this here the day it happened, but I'm not so comfortable here yet and didn't know where to post it - also wasn't sure it would be "smart" to post it on a blog that gets so much attention. Pretty funny to "stumble" upon it today! lol!

As far as the validity - who knows? The guy I spoke with could have just been trying to shut me up for all I know! Or maybe it IS valid info and it didn't occur to him I'd pass it on? although I did let him know that election fraud was of major concern to me.

Anyways, like you say we have to take it "with a grain of salt", but I have to admit it made my day!

[Verve]

146. Welcome to DU jen4clark!

:hi:

[Amaryllis]

160. Welcome to DU, Jen! As you can see, it's received a lot of attention. As

far as whether it's smart to post it, I thought it certainly couldn't be as noteworthy as Therese Heinz Kerry's remarks where she practically came out and said they stole the election. We can assume from that that JK isn't just forgetting about it.

[FreedomAngel82]

17. I just read about that

I hope that's right. I do remember reading how Kerry and Edwards would pop up to sign things if needed. I remember hearing an audio file of Kerry at a rally or something talking to someone and he was telling who was next to him that the Bush administration were the biggest bunch of criminals he's ever seen and he's just getting started on them. Does anybody have that audio file?? And it does make sense that they'd be quiet so they can work behind the scenes without people being suspecious and without being labeled "consperiacy nuts." That happened with the Ohio elecotral vote objection. I think things are finally happening and I hope and pray it's soon!

[Amaryllis]

41. Wow! you have any more on this? I never heard about it; the part

about "biggest bunch of criminals he's ever seen and he's just getting started on them."

[tavalon]

54. You didn't hear about it?

It was one of the first things they tried to smear Kerry with. He wasn't aware that he was hot when he said it and the rethugs had a field day with it.

[Amaryllis]

80. No, didn't hear. You have any links?

[liberalla]

115. see post #114

I put a couple links there.

[FreepFryer]

23. It's just an anonymous comment but it happens to be true...

...I've been saying it all along because I honestly have believed it all along.

Kerry and his team were, and are acting in the only responsible way they can, given the evidence and case in hand.

Stay in it - keep the netroots activity strong!

We are making a difference, in an unprecedented way!

[FreedomAngel82]

27. This is also

a way to get rid of the voting machines. If Conyers can prove how unreliable they are they could get rid of them for future elections and then we'd always know for sure.

[Amaryllis]

30. I was thinking that too. If they proved fraud, and that it was done by

machines, and KErry called a giant press conference, wouldn't even MSM have to pay attention? And wouldn't people demand they get rid of the machines? Or is this just wishful thinking on my part, that any of this could even happen? Sigh. I still keep hoping there will be some kind of miracle, some kind of Watergate, except it would have to be SO much bigger than Watergate to make an impact. Look at Gannon; that should have been as big as WAtergate, and MSM hardly touched it.

[merh]

40. Never forget, Kerry was a prosecutor, a very successful

prosecutor. He would never make allegations before the investigation was completed. Grand juries are conducted in secret for a reason, to keep the bad guys from interferring with the witnesses and destroying the evidence. Maybe that is why all of the investigation is done in secret, to keep the bastards from hiding the evidence or killing any more witnesses than they have.

:hi:

[Amaryllis]

43. or killing any more evidence than they already have...Triad tech.

[merh]

44. Have we heard anything from or about him since Nov 2004?

:shrug:

I was thinking about Lemme.

[Amaryllis]

46. Who? The Triad tech?

[merh]

48. Sorry, that was confusing,

Yes, the triad tech.

[LatePeriduct]

55. You don't mean...

Raymond Lemme!!!! http://www.bradblog.com

I have a feeling Tom Delay knows quite alot more....

Gee what a tangled Diebold web Mr. Delay weaves hmm?
http://houseofscandal.org

Friends of mine have also found a whole stack of things related to what appears to be a secret conspiracy in Florida, which they were covering up so nobody would investigate and so the FDOT and people Lemme worked for wouldn't cry fraud.

[Amaryllis]

64. Conspiracy regarding what? The election?

[LatePeriduct]

94. The election is correct.

It has to do with Jeb Bush, and a whole group of extreme whackos putting out radio broadcasts everywhere about voter fraud.

[merh]

65. Yes, that Lemme

Does anyone know what has come of the triad tech?

[FreedomAngel82]

70. Exactly

You're right. If he was going to get them he'd come out with a bang and hit them all at once when they're not expecting it and they can't defend themselves.

[smartvoter]

163. Crossing my fingers in hopes that it's true. nt

[FreedomAngel82]

69. And also

if you think about it the concession makes sense too. They knew he stole it again I'm sure. So he conceded because they had to work behind the scenes. If Kerry did like Gore he would've made people mad etc. and they would've been on his tail like with Gore and the "riots." This time a lot of work got done and more proof to get Bush and his people and get rid of the voting machines so they'll never be used again. It's smart how people like Conyers are on the team to get rid of the voting machines and not going about the "Bush stole 2004" route while other people work behind the scenes. I found the video of Mr. Dean talking about them being brought down in the spring and it was the February meeting where he is sworn in as chairman.

[Amaryllis]

81. do you have a link for that, or a transcript or anything? I didn't know

he said that until I read it here yesterday.

[liberalla]

114. He said it in March 2004, I believe...

Here's a couple:

"Kerry, thinking he was off-mike, said this to some union members:

"We're just getting started. These Guys Are the Most Crooked, Lying Group I've Ever Seen"

Personally, this makes me like Kerry a LOT more. He's just speaking the truth, and, following in the tradition of Howard Dean, not being afraid to say what we all know anyway."

snip>

Statement from Kerry Spokesperson on John Kerry’s Comments on Republican Attacks

Washington, DC – The following statement was issued by Kerry spokesperson, Stephanie Cutter, regarding comments made by John Kerry on Republican attacks while on the campaign trail today:

“Four years ago, John Kerry saw what the right-wing attack machine did to John McCain in South Carolina. Two years ago, he saw what they did to Max Cleland. Now they’re coming after John Kerry. What he was saying today was that we’re not going to take it. Our opponents are willing to say or do anything to stop John Kerry from bringing change to America. We’re not going to shy away from knocking down their deceitful attacks.”

http://www.opednews.com/kall031004_lying_crook.htm

CHRIS MATTHEWS, HOST: Tonight the Republican Party gangs up on John Kerry for his description of them as crooks and liars.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: "These guys are the most crooked, you know, lying group of people I‘ve ever seen. "

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4514639/


I also remember seeing (and hearing) it on TV national news...

[Amaryllis]

117. Wow! And that was BEFORE they stole the election!

[rigel99]

174. WHY DID lead Attorney for OHIO Cliff Arnebeck say

in a recent 200 person Nashville conference on Election Fraud
say loud and clear..

Kerry knew then what we know now, the mounting and substantial
evidence.. and

KERRY TOOK A WALK....

see Arnebeck saying Kerry took at walk at this website..

http://www.countpaperballots.com/VIDEO/NashvilleVideo.htm

click on the Cliff Arnebeck video#1 file...

either way, I'm holding my opinion for when the citizens make Kerry look like crap spending money out of their own pockets because DNC and Kerry's millions of money we gave him out of our pockets were SAVED FOR HIS NEXT run instead of fighting for election fraud...

face it..Kerry is a fraud... I will never believe he had backbone at this time in our history....

[New Earth]

51. hmm

didn't i (among others) spend months trying to tell people this and no one would listen? and of course some still won't. nope, not Kerry, he's a traitor and a fake :eyes:

[Kip Humphrey]

56. You & me both!

question is still: when will there be enough evidence for Kery o move out of the shadows?

[merh]

75. Hey Faye

Yes, some of us tried for months to convince others that Kerry had people working on this. And yes, some people listened then and some didn't and some still are not listening today.

Good to see you! :hi:

Remember your thread about freepers? Will you post in at the other forum for us? I think it is a great resource. :thumbsup:

[New Earth]

93. sure will

:hi:

[merh]

95. It is one of my favorite posts/threads and worthy of

the attention it so deserves! :thumbsup:

I hate that it was locked away here! ;-)

Thanks

[New Earth]

97. heheh

man those were the days.....nostalgia.......

[merh]

98. Yeah, those were the days

The last couple of weeks (months) around here have been so odd!
:toast: To the good ole days that weren't that long ago! :beer:

[Amaryllis]

82. There were lots of us who listened. I'd read a lot about him taking on the

BCCI and know it wasn't his M.O. to give up, but also not his M.O. to act before he had his ducks lined up.

[New Earth]

92. i know you were one of the ones who believed

:)

[seito]

90. Hi Faye

I remember you saying something along those lines awhile back :)

Nice to see ya.

[New Earth]

91. i remember you saying the same thing as well :)

and hey nothing's changed, a certain person around here still thinks i'm a freeper :rofl:

[LittleClarkie]

104. He's still on the BCCI case, so if it takes him forever, I have no doubts

he will keep at it.

Ah yes, the obsessive/compulsive former prosecutor. He'd never come out unless he knew he had a solid, airtight case. Anything else would damage our cause immeasurably.

[dandrhesse]

57. I'm glad to hear that you addressed it with the phone volunteer,

unfortunately for me the person who called me was totally out of touch. I mentioned my concerns and also the fact that until the vote issues are taken care of then contributing and running campaigns are a waste of my money. They responded with some lame canned answer like "well you know how well funded the Republicans are, we need money so we can fight back"

I glad you got the response you did. I have been hoping that was the case but it is hard because if they are doing that then they can't afford to tip their hand even if it means we are mad as hell at them.

[lostnfound]

58. I have a reason to believe at least 2 dozen Senators believe it also

which is all the more frightening, isn't it?

[iconoclastNYC]

59. With control of the house republicans could pour water on any smoking gun

If anything happens with this fraud thing it won't blow up until we have control of the house. Rove knows how to control the press. If something came out it would get killed off by the MSM. We all know this here at DU.

So hopefully the Kerry crew had done prelim investigation and has leads for the house to pick up on when we get regain control of the house in '06.

Or they are just analyzing how it was done in hopes of laying a trap in '06. One thing is certain the DNC or other liberal groups need to have an army of private investigators on the ground, months before the next election....survailing the vote equipment storage facilities and and watching for the visible signs of conspiracy. The army of lawyers didn't actually do much in 2004, save maybe for Ohio, and that was Arneback, and i think he wasn't even associated with the DNC.

Honestly I think our only hope is to trap the crooks.

[Verve]

145. Just a thought iconoclast, we won't regain the house in 2006

if election fraud is occurring. It just won't happen!

You bring up a good point though. Should Kerry try to catch them in the act during 2006 elections or should he try to expose the fraud before the elections?

[Hanging On]

61. Encouraging news....

I was so proud of Kerry, Biden and others at the Bolton hearing. Kerry was openly disgusted with the depths to which the committee had sunk; and also said he had learned a lot about "politics" over the last couple of years. I believe he is furious enough to pursue these people until hell freezes over. And he STILL has my confidence.

[gordianot]

63. In every organization there are opposing factions.

John Kerry is an opposing force to the current occupants. I will continue to back John Kerry.

[meganmonkey]

67. Splendid - I hope it is true

and I believe it is.

Even if it isn't, a lot is being accomplished by the Election Reform movement, waves are being made, fraud is being exposed piece by piece, and if this serves as inspiration for us to keep working, then great!

:bounce:

[Wilms]

71. Look out, George.

[FreedomAngel82]

74. Kerry

has his eye on him! ;)

[KansDem]

72. This is good news, however, the next election is only 1.5 years off...

If electronic voting isn't outlawed before then, it might be that the Diebold Magic Tabulator could give the GOP a filibuster-proof majority and we'll be singing "goodbye Constitution, hello King George II!"

[satya]

77. Time's slipping by.Can't wait for legislation;can 2006voters request paper

alternative to black boxes? Even if the tabulators are hacked again, at least we'll have paper backup.

They can't force us to e-vote, can they? (well, on second thought, I guess "they" can do just about anything they want...)

[lthuedk]

169. How would one propose "outlawing" the black box when

any move towards verified voting is promptly killed by the legislature?

-sp

[Nightjock]

73. I've been let down so many times by DU information

but I will allow myself ONE MORE TIME to get my hopes up. I love and respect John Kerry and it makes sense that he would not go foward until all of the evidence had been collected. He is going to be a great President.

[ginnyinWI]

76. Proving it was stolen is one thing,

but taking over the White House is quite another. Even if Bush and Cheney resign, they won't just hand over the keys to Kerry. He'll have to run for the presidency again. They'd have to change a whole lot of laws to just put Kerry in--it would be wonderful, and make history, but---what are the odds.

If/when Kerry makes a move, you can be sure that he'll have a complete case all wrapped up against BushCo with irrefutable evidence. It will be wonderful to see. They will realize that they picked the wrong guy to steal an election from--he's a fighter, not a quitter.


The Negroponte vote is a good example of why we at DU should not be so quick to judge what our politicians do or do not do. There is usually more to the story that we don't know about. So we need to take the long view.

[1956]

78. Yippee! But let's dummy up a little!!

I have suspected all along that Kerry was getting his ducks in a row, but folx since we all love our Prez Kerry so much,and desperately want him to claim what is proudly his own- the best thing we can do to help him,us, and the world!.. is to keep this quieter. I fear there are a lot of Rethuglican spies out there just waiting to have something to report to their bosses, to stop the process. On the other hand, I like to think they are all so busy in GOP land with damage control with Delay,Frist,Bolton, you name it, plus the global domination plans they have in mind, (I mean... they are busy!), that the Nov. theft nastiness trail might have slipped through their fingers. Plus, they probably think that like the former poster that it isn't that easy to just prove it and take over. They are probably less paranoid about that than anything else! But, JK was a prosecutor, and I look forward to the zeal with which the wrath shall fly.Kerry is extremely smart, and I'm sure he has a good plan, but he's staying in the fight, and that is really s
something to cheer about. I imagine he is more than just mad as hell!
GO-KERRY-GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ginnyinWI]

87. true,

But everyone knows that DU is only full of a bunch of left wing nuts, right? ;) So what do we know? We're just being pathetic losers who need to "get over it" :sarcasm: :)

[kster]

83. I thought it was congress

who would choose prez and vice prez if they were to resign? I think if the true facts come out ,and 70 80 million people were pissed about what happened, I think congress would have to choose Kerry/Edwards "faster than a cat trying to sh*t on a hot tin roof"

[Amaryllis]

116. Nope, not the way the law is written.

[kster]

121. How is it written?

[Amaryllis]

124. There's that whole chain of command thing. I can't remember who is

next after Cheney. But then, we have never had a stolen election proven, either.

[rzemanfl]

86. The only things that matter are the following:

1. Who does the military accept as their Commander-in-Chief?
2. Who does the Secret Service protect?

[Blue Shark]

85. Problem is...

...there are all those video clips of John Kerry's lawyers (and the candidate himself) saying: (paraphrase) "We don't question the outcome of this past election, just the process by which it took place."

...Why couldn't they just shut the fuck up?

[ginnyinWI]

88. followed by:

"new evidence has come to light which prompts us to revise our position on this matter."

[kster]

89. How could you

question the outcome of the election "at that time" * won, Kerry did not have enough proof "at that time".If he would have questioned the outcome he would have had to been prepared to fight "at that time" on *'s terms.If he comes out when he has the proof,then Bush has to be prepared to fight on Kerry's terms. If true, Kerry has turned the table.

[rigel99]

101. And Kerry's Lawyers on VIDEO

when asked by a judge, would Kerry personally fight in Ohio for the recount, the answer was a very loud and clear NO..

I'm not convinced... sounds like revisionist history.. and Edwards being so silent.. something more going on behind the curtains..


and goddamn... I love all this FUCKING EXCITEMENT about the 'taking longer but DRE machines fraud can be prove'.

WHY? Cause I"m the one doing the audit of GA, a full 100% DRE state. and it takes time. and it takes blood and sweat and money and I'm fucking tired.

where the hell is kerry now... huh? where is Dean or the DNC 500K money being spent only on REFORM and not fraud..

why doesn't anyone contact the citizens that have the real evidence...


LIKE MY 206 PAGE DIEBOLD CONTRACT I had to fight my SOS office to receive a copy of.. where is Kerry in this fighting, huh?

loose words in a congress that has since become no longer valid in a fully dictatorship country, is precious little solace to someone like me who is bleeding in the trenches wondering like crazy where are all the goddamn leaders..

I have 2 leaders, they are lawyers their names are Arnebeck and Finley. Everyone else can just go to hell as far as I'm concerned..

I believe acctions louder than words.....

enough said.....

[LatePeriduct]

102. Just wanted to point this out.

would Kerry personally fight in Ohio for the recount, the answer was a very loud and clear NO..

This was false, he never said anything about the recount. A lawyer for the team was asked to state whether Kerry's group would be joining the recount lawsuit, he said no and they were still evaluating problems on the ground.

Like everything Kerry does, its always taken out of context by somebody. Later this was reversed, and Kerry fully joined the recount lawsuit amending new complaints and verified evidence which they requested the state to investigate immediately. This never lead to anything until Blackwell, completed the investigation he whitewashed and fired the BOEs in the whole state.

See now, Kerry never said any of that.

[kster]

103. Your wasting time

looking for leaders,seems to me you are doing fine work on your own,whether Kerry goes public or not, don't stop doing what you are doing. Good work .NGU

[The Devils Advocate]

99. Good News. Fingers are crossed.

[garybeck]

105. still skeptical. but hopeful.

I would like to know where that $500,000 went

and where is terry mccullife? he said he wanted to "pry those machines open."

[FreedomAngel82]

106. Yeah

I never heard anything about that. :shrug:

[LatePeriduct]

110. Probably in the courts and tied up...

They have to fight a corrupt court system in that state to make sure the tabulators are impounded. Clifford Arnebeck and them are still fighting.

[rigel99]

168. I called DNC the 500K is going to pay

Donna Brazile Lawfirm employees and not one place further..

it's a big fat joke. I heard at nashville conference DNC can only spend money on Election REFORM and cannot spend on anything like open records or FRAUd as they are not wanting to get labeled as whiners..

well, DNC wake up and smell the FRAUD... it's time for him to wake up to the huge problems of DRE machine purchases and realize hiring folks to run Democrat offices in states is just bureacracy and no need for it if you cannot get folks elected!!!

[Robert Oak]

107. good deal!

I agree with this strategy for they will need to prove it so
strongly, unquestionable...

it's fairly amazing if this idea is even mentioned you are "paranoid"
with the media and the public.

[feelthebreeze]

108. Can't just browse, gotta jump in...

Scuse me whilst I say a little prayer: Please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please,please, please... let it be true.
I worry with all the upcoming stress and fear about nuclear option, that this is all just hopeful wish fulfillment, but WTF I need a little hope.

[loudsue]

109. Great thread! Kickin' with fingers crossed!

I hope Kerry has enough information to FRY the bush cartel... and then I hope he does it...taking prisoners!

:kick:

[Laurab]

111. I believe it - I've believed it since day 1

and I've never stopped believing it. And I have to say, Kerry has been smiling a LOT lately (except in Foreign Relations Committee meetings), and looking pretty darn relaxed. If anyone has what it takes to do this thing right, he's the guy.

[1956]

118. some smiles, but also pretty pissed as well!

I noticed Kerry looking different, but thought he was mostly pissed by the nuclear/Bolton/disentergrating(sp?) of America thing happening. He looked less gray...grecian formula? I thought he looked better than months before.With everything happening on the senate floor as well as this fight surfacing- I can imagine he must be exhausted! I hope everything goes so well in this fight I knew he had not abandoned all along! It is very exciting to think of the possibilities! Very exciting! I imagine he will come out fighting like he did after Vietnam, "How do you ask a man to be the last man to die in Vietnam?" I wonder how he will put all his claims out to the public? How exactly will it be worded?
Or will it be just one huge lawsuit or impeachment thing? Any one have possible scenarios? If the s*** hits the fan like I know it will, it will be a fantasy come true for me. I hope his hard evidence-some I bet none of us really know about- is so irrefutable
that it just totally cooks the GOP!
And folks-esp. some of you-let's give him a lot more credit. Think about what JK has been thru and how much courage it will take to stand up and really put up the fight, and to face the consequences if it fails! Because of all of this alone, I remember the best reason of all I voted for him! The man rocks! He is not a coward by any means!

[glitch]

119. You are most welcome to DU! Love your optimism and your screen name. nt

[autorank]

112. If true, Kerry is Lord! IMHO

[NVMojo]

113. I hope someone from the Kerry crew looks into those 2,100 paperless

10-yr old Sequoias that Las Vegas voted on ...Especially since Bush only beat him by 21,000 votes in Nevada ...

[Bill Bored]

123. Is that all?

I was thinking how close IA and NM were, but without OH or FL, not enough electoral votes. But NV has 5. If you add that to IA and NM, you get 17. Switch them from Bush to Kerry and you have a TIE! 269 to 269!
So the electoral college was decided by less then 40,000 votes???

Uh, has this been reported anywhere?

[Amaryllis]

125. In Iowa, Florida, Nevada, and New Mexico, exit poll data showed Kerry

leading, but the final computer tallies had Bush as the winner. In Pennsylvania, Minnesota, New Hampshire, and California, exit poll data showed Kerry with a much higher lead than what the final computer tallies indicated.

In 10 states where there were verifiable paper trails -- or no electronic machines -- the final results hardly differed from the initial exit polls. Exit polls and final counts in Missouri, Louisiana, Maine and Utah, for instance, varied by 1 percent or less. In non-paper-trail states, however, there were significant differences. Florida saw a shift from Kerry +1 percent in the exit polls to Bush +5 percent at evening's end. In Ohio, Kerry went from +3 percent to –3 percent. Other big discrepancies in key states were: Minnesota (from +10 percent to +4 percent), New Mexico (+4 to –1), Nevada (+1 to –3), Wisconsin (+7 to +0.4), Colorado (-2 to –5), North Carolina (-4 to -13), Iowa (+1 to –1), New Hampshire (+14 to +1) and Pennsylvania (+8 to +2). Exit polls also had Kerry winning the national popular vote by 3 percent.

In close Senate races, changes between the exit poll results and the final tallies cost Democrats anticipated seats in Kentucky (a 13 percent swing to the GOP), Alaska (9 percent), North Carolina (9 percent), Florida, Oklahoma, South Dakota and possibly Pennsylvania -- as well as enough House seats to retake control of the chamber.

http://valleyadvocate.com/gbase/News/content?oid=oid:91516

[Bill Bored]

127. Linky no worky

But my point was that the entire electoral vote was DECIDED by less than 40,000 votes and I never realized that before! We keep focusing on the 118,000-vote margin in Ohio, but NM, IA and NV have almost as many EVs and in the aggregate, they were decided by less then 40,000 votes! Congress would have had to decide if there were a 269/269 tie. Perhaps this is trivial, but I think it's cool; what can I say?

[vince3]

130. I never realized that....

I have followed this caper since the election. It seems like I have read just about every internet post on this stolen election, and I followed Olbermann's blog from November to January, and Conyers' work, and never realized that 40,000 votes are the difference. No one else has made that connection, either, as far as I know. Great work, Bill Bored. This can only help. We don't even have to somehow have Kerry deemed to be the winner in OH. If, somehow, these other three states can be shown to be stolen, Kerry is ahead in the electoral college (He was crooked out of one electoral vote in MN when an elector somehow voted for Edwards).

[FreedomAngel82]

147. Why did they vote for Edwards?

I thought that was pretty strange.

[Bill Bored]

172. Yes, who did that?

There was one EV for Edwards wasn't there?
Is that counted in CNN's total for Kerry, or???
Which state was that anyway?

[Bill Bored]

157. Not ahead, just TIED. But then Congress would have had to decide.

Result: Another unelected Bush Presidency!
Missed it by THAT much!

And imagine this combined with the Ohio stuff! The media should have been on top of it before Jan. 6! I wish I had noticed.

NV's population is amall, so even a 3% difference is only 20,000 votes. That's why no one noticed.

[Amaryllis]

132. Hot damn, you're right! Screech of dismay...he only lost by 40,000 votes!

[Amaryllis]

134. ONe of those funky DU link breakups. Try this.

Add the second part which begins with "content" right after the forward slash after "news".

http://valleyadvocate.com/gbase/News/

content?oid=oid:91516

[Bill Bored]

171. I'll try but if you put 's around the link, it stays together. nt

[Verve]

148. Wow Bill Bored! I've never realized or read about the 40,000 vote

difference either. Great work!

[Bill Bored]

158. Thank NVMOJO too. But it's still only a TIE in the EC. nt

[tandem5]

120. I'm not going to hang my hopes on some stray reply... besides

even if its true best to leave it alone anyway

[femme.democratique]

122. What would happen legally if it were proven?

Could Kerry still become president? If there is a God this would be Her will...

[tandem5]

126. its a subversion of our electoral process so...

installing Kerry would only further our rift with democracy. We can hope for the exposure of the truth and the readjustment of public perception on the importance of our voting system. Oh and the muffled screams of a self-imploding Republican party - that would be nice too!

[kster]

128. Don't agree

"installing Kerry would only further our rift with democracy."

After proving Kerry is our right full president, making Kerry President would only strengthen this country beyond your wildest dreams,showing this country and the world that a crime, is a crime, is a crime no matter who you are, would make us stand above the rest.

[femme.democratique]

131. I agree with this. In fact, I think the knowledge that the current..

...president got the position through fraud and illegal activities, how could he possibly stay in office? You think there wouldn't be massive unrest if Bush were allowed to stay in office? We'd then REALLY be the laughingstock of the world (not like we aren't already). I agree certainly there is no precedent in American history, but there must be some sort of legal guidelines for this.

[Amaryllis]

133. That's a very good question. We have laws for succession in the case

of impeachment, but are there any if it's proven that the wrong person is in office due to election theft?

[Dr Ron]

135. Doubt any laws to handle this

If it was proven Bush stole the election, conceivably he could be impeached but the normal line of succession would apply--possible with others in the line of succession also being implicated.

There would still be benefits. If it was really commonly believed that Kerry won but had the election stolen, this would greatly increase his support for 2008, probably making him unbeatable. Most importantly, if the 2004 election was stolen, getting the evidence would be a tremendous step towards preventing it from happening again.

[beammeup]

140. Bush's "victory" in 2000 was a fraud, and what has been done about it? We

... know that the Bush win in 2000 was not legitimate- the felons list, the butterfly ballots, the outrageous stop-counting order by the Supreme Court, the fact that black voters had their ballots labeled "spoiled" (and thus thrown out) at a rate NINE TIMES that of whites- and now he's elected again on even shakier ground. And who knows or cares?

[vince3]

166. And with all the dirty tricks...

and the tens of thousands of African-American voters who were eligible to vote but were denied the franchise, and the 179,000 ballots that were deemed to be "spoiled", Gore still won FL. A media recount of the crooked ballots showed Gore winning the state by about 150 votes. The study was released September 12, 2001. Unlucky timing dictated that it got little media coverage. You don't think that the 911 attacks could have had anything to do with the release of a report that said, in spite of all the dirty tricks in FL, Bush still lost, do you? Weird.

[tandem5]

137. If it’s just about Kerry being president then this country is in trouble..

I don't think enough credit is being given to how critical a working voting system is to our country.

Proving fraud doesn't necessarily mean you have proven Bush was involved or that Kerry even won for that matter and proving all three points doesn't mean you have convinced a suitable amount of people that such events actually occurred.

So where does that leave us? The country as we know it would now be on hold - laws are now mere suggestions and the people involved in the fraud would act quickly to cultivate existing doubts. Moving to replace Bush with Kerry as president would be perceived by some, ironically, as an attempted coup... before you know it riots in the streets, tanks, big guys with guns, etc.

I guess my argument has boiled down to the infeasibility of Bush being exchanged for Kerry which really only addresses one part my position. My other point is that the preservation of our electoral process (and our country) is a million times more important than Kerry being president. It seems to me that in the name of restoring democracy by replacing Bush with Kerry you dismiss the fundamental role our voting system plays in preserving our country.

[Amaryllis]

139. Agree it's not just about Kerry being president, and I don't think that

even if they proved the election was stolen that would happen. The way the law is written I believe it would still follow the same succession as if a pres is impeached, but this would be unprecedented if they actually proved * was fraudulently elected. Any election lawyers out there? Or do we need constitutional lawyers for an opinion? Although the constitution doesn't seem to mean a lot any more.

[FreepFryer]

142. The likeliest scenario is a resignation of all those in the chain...

...of Presidential succession who are proven to have been involved.

Even this administration would not withstand direct public knowledge of outright election theft. And they would never let the story live long enough to go through even a failed impeachment hearing.

Arrests of mid-level folks, convictions, confessions, investigations and then resignations followed by more resignations.

Instead of doing the people's business. What utter scum to so circumvent the time-honored American electoral process so egregiously and severely.

[AtLiberty]

143. What about the members of Congress who...

...are in office because of electronic fraud? State and local leaders?

I guess I'm getting greedy. I'd settle for just the Bushies to be outed and meaningful national election reform.

[FreedomAngel82]

149. Question I have

If it's proven the election was stolen for Bush from Kerry wouldn't they impeach them all? Because they all would be there illegally this time around.

[tommcintyre]

152. This was covered right after the election...

and I believe some qualified (attys?) were involved.

In summary, this was the gist of the thread:

Once Bush was sworn in (1/20), the only way to remove him from office is to impeach him.

But there must be legal grounds to impeach him for this to happen.

The ONLY legal grounds would be if you could prove he personally knew about the election fraud (they used terms like willful, foreknowledge, etc., as I remember). This would be much harder to prove than election fraud. In reality, He may never have been told. Rove is probably smart enough NOT to have told him. The "man behind the curtain" doesn't need to tell "the great OZ" which levers he pulls.

Would he (be forced to) resign in this case? We can only speculate on this point. Going by the Bushco history, I doubt it. Look at the current Delay situation, etc. They have NO sense if integrity anymore, and a repub congress is unlikely to force it. And the American public seem to be so desensitized to the shame of Bushco, I doubt enough would call loudly enough for it.

If he did step down for some reason, the rules of succession would apply.

Our best strategy is to expose the fraud still. It greatly increases our chance of getting meaningful election reform. It would probably seriously damage the effectiveness of the Bush admin (and repub congress; and would likely hurt them badly in the 2006 and '08 elections.

No doubt, it would certainly ruin his legacy. History would NOT wait to judge him until after he was dead (as he told Bob Woodward). He would live the rest of his life in a shame that would certainly be much greater than anything Nixon ever experienced - if that's any consolation.

[glitch]

141. Exactly. Without a fair vote count, everything is up for grabs.

"laws are now mere suggestions"

[Peace Patriot]

144. That's a pretty strange argument, tandem5--that replacing Bush with...

...Kerry would be dismissing "the fundamental role our voting system plays in preserving our country." It seems to me that the rightfully elected candidate taking his place as President would reinforce the fundamental role of our voting system and RESTORE our democracy. Maybe I'm not understanding you.

It's my understanding of the legal side of things that a finding of a stolen election would have to be made by Congress in the course of an impeachment proceeding. The courts do not have any power to remove a president. Only Congress does. (And the Supreme Court should damn well have kept their paws out of it in '00. They violated several principles and provisions of the Constitution in Bush v. Gore, among them Florida's right to run its election according to state laws; Congress' role in the Electoral College and succession issues, and its ultimate power to determine who will be president; and the "balance of powers" principle.)

Anyway, here's the deal. Congress holds all the power in this situation. (This is possibly why Kerry conceded--he didn't have a prayer of getting justice from Bush's "pod people" in Congress.) Kerry or someone else could win a court case that Ohio was stolen, or could win 10 court cases in 10 states, and it wouldn't have any legal force, as to who gets to be president. The only way to remove a president who has been granted the Electoral College vote by Congress is to impeach him.

Could Kerry present such a strong case to Congress that even Bush's "pod people" would be forced to impeach him--say, via public pressure? Possibly--but it's a very, very outside possibility. For one thing, you can be sure that they have insulated Bush from any direct involvement (they would be fools not to). So Bush's "pod people" could choose some scapegoats (Kenneth Blackwell comes to mind), and say that Bush himself committed no "high crime and misdemeanor" and took office in good faith. I can just see the "pod people" weeping over these misguided Republicans who stole Ohio, and lied to Bush's people, and on and on. Articles of impeachment (at least historically) have not been brought for anything but alleged crimes by the president himself, not by underlings (and not for election fraud or chicanery). (Nixon would have gotten off scot free in Watergate if it had not been for the tapes in the Oval Office that had him involved in funneling money to the burglars. Prior to that, he probably would have evaded impeachment, because there was no evidence of his direct involvement, even though people on his Committee to Re-Elect the President, and his own A.G. were involved.)

That's what Emperors do when they are accused of anything. They find scapegoats.

And you can be sure that the Bush "pod people" in Congress--if they are forced by public opinion to look like they are doing something--will jump at the slightest excuse not to impeach Bush.

If Kerry or someone else nevertheless pursues it in Congress (with little hope that Bush will actually be impeached, but with the purpose of exposure of the fraud and maybe election reform)--or if it is exposed in another venue (the news monopolies, in an effort to prevent revolution maybe? --or, thinking creatively, the U.N.? --or, the International War Crimes court? --or, just through the cumulative impact of books, blogs, movies, grass roots conferences like Nashville, possibly local political action--city council resolutions? and other such means--what is the likely outcome? And what will the Bush Cartel do to counter it?

Create a "commission" on election reform. Guess what? They've already done that. And put James Baker in as co-chair (with Jimmy Carter). An entirely private "commission" in which the public has no rights whatsoever, but it's acting all official, and intending to issue a "report to Congress" in fall '06; this private "commission" is stacked with paperless voting advocates and BushCons.

So, whatever head of steam election fraud '04 gets up, they will try to deflect it, with this already existing, offiicial-seeming "commission," and I think they have planned all along to go further than that--I think they intend to nationalize our election systems, under Bush Cartel control, and that will be the end of any real election reform. The people won't have any power any more at the state/local level to demand paper ballots or auditable elections.

This private "commission" gives the Bush "pod people" in Congress political cover for such a power grab (in dealing with secretaries of state, county election officials and other state-oriented groups). It's pretty clever. And once they have the power of election systems, procedures and rules, they can do whatever they want.

Will they succeed with this scheme? Dunno. Maybe. (They actually have the power in Congress to do it right now, but it's a little brazen. That's why the "commission," in my view. What other reason could there be for this "commission" to spring up all of a sudden? According to just about all powermongers in DC and in the states, and, of course, according to the news monopolies, there is nothing wrong with our election system. Why have a "commission" about it? Could be just a preemptive strike on emerging election fraud evidence. Could be preparation for something they think Kerry has. All possible. But the arrival of this "commission" certainly stinks to high heaven. They're definitely up to something.)

Other likely outcomes: Voters will be upset, of course--if the truth comes out. (And their outcries will just bolster the private election "commission"'s self-appointed mandate--I can hear it now.) If a lot of people become convinced of the election fraud, Bush will be discredited, and the Bush Cartel may be prevented from committing some of the worser crimes they have in mind (invading Iran, Syria and Venezuela, to consolidate all control over oil, for instance). I think that's what we might be looking at--somewhat of a caretaker government, with Bush Cartel people scrambling to cover their asses (an orgy of shredding!).

Or, if they succeed in taking total control of elections, they'll just ride it out. What do they care? I'm sure they wouldn't mind a few riots--the opportunity to bash some heads and show a little muscle here at home. Given the lapdog press, it's all spinnable, to the extent that they even bother to spin it.

The best scenario (of the probable ones) is that the Baker/Carter "commission" fails in what I'm pretty sure is their mission--nationalizing elections, the election fraud is exposed, Bush & Co. are discredited, and can't do much in their final years, the election fraud inspires serious election system reform in the states, and we are able to elect a decent president and a decent Congress.

What we have to do NEXT is even harder than what we have to do now--insure that a fascist coup never happens here again; get the corporations out of our government and our political system; remove private money from our election system (maybe a Consitutional amendment); reform our political parties; bust up the media monopolies; recover from massive looting of federal and state treasuries; convert to alternative energy; restore government openness and transparency; join with other countries in saving our planetary environment; replace all the Bush Cartel yes-men in government, in the military, in the diplomatic corps, and in the intelligence agencies; investigate 9/11, etc., etc. We have to UNDO all that the Bush Cartel has done, and move forward.

But I think this is true about Americans: Just set out the program for progress, for justice and fairness, and for environmental protection, give us a little inspiration and even set before us impossible tasks for the common good, and we will damn well get it done. That's the country I know. A good country. A well-meaning country. A practical, "can do" country.

I want to warn people here against hoping for a savior--or any big revelations suddenly changing the political climate. We may have to restore our democracy step by step, in a long term effort--and I'm thinking, in particular, state by state, locality by locality, with election reform. Anything Kerry might do to help that along would be very welcome. I won't (and can't) judge the man, pro or con. I really don't know what's up with him (--although Teresa's recent remarks about the election were certainly interesting). If he helps us, fine. If he doesn't, he may have good reasons and he may not. Most of all, I hope he-- and a lot of others--help us get rid of the electronic voting machines (or open them up to public scrutiny and control), and help prevent the nationalization of elections while this regime is in power.

[Verve]

150. Thanks for the reality check Peace Patriot!

I needed that.

The fact is, having proof of election fraud will not be enough. The real fight with the media, congress and of course, Bushco, will just begin. And we all know breaking down these three barriers will be no small task. Yet, if anyone can do it, Kerry can.

[Amaryllis]

161. It would sure help to get media attention if he jumped into the fray big

time. Maybe then finally MoveOn and MM would get on board the train they are ignoring.

[FreedomAngel82]

151. You make a lot of good points

I also think if it's found out they stole the election it WON'T be going to Bush. Someone else will fall for them. Probably Blackwell is my guess. The thing I've noticed with the Bush family is they keep their hands clean from the law. Look at what has happened already. Bush has done numerous illegal activities and he's STILL THERE!!! It is strange about this electoral reform thing. Either Carter got a lot of pressure from people about this who wrote him (never saw anything about that though) or he just decided to join. It really is quite strange. This happened not too long after the rightwing "election" group either. So I really don't know. I guess they just want to descredit Conyers and other people who are working on the election. I wonder why they wanted to work with Conyers though? Knowing all the information he has.

[tommcintyre]

153. Yes, they do "keep their hands clean" See post 152 above

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x360895#362256

[AtLiberty]

154. Blaming Bush for anything would be like blaming the idiot child...

As Bill Maher once said in cooing tones, "He...doesn't...know. He...doesn't...know."

[Amaryllis]

162. I've often wondered if he knows. My guess is no, since he has to know

to be impeached; seems Karl would have kept him out of the loop.

[tandem5]

156. I don't think I disagree with any of the points you make...

of course with the exception of your first statement. I apologize if I wasn't completely clear on my point – looking back at my original post I realize that I could have better articulated my argument.

I believe that when a group of individuals acts to commit fraud in an election that group acts to disenfranchise the entire electorate not just those whose candidate is directly harmed by such actions. Would you agree that an election that is fixed is, indeed, not an election at all?

Further an election that has been conducted fraudulently, and on a mass scale has been irreparably harmed. To demonstrate proof of fraud in order to catch those responsible and to protect our voting system from future harm is one thing, but to use methodology outside that of the electoral process to "correct" the fraud is quite another.

As you pointed out our country is a republic and are represented officials have been endowed with the authority to muddle their way through such a political crisis.

So my question is would the election process be restored if such a representative body set the precedent of choosing the candidate they deemed actually won?

I think the best way to protect our voting system is to acknowledge its fragility. Past elections can't be "fixed" and trying to do so runs contrary to the election process itself.
It is my hope that we work to expose election fraud and the parties responsible in order to ensure the integrity of elections to come.

[GetTheRightVote]

155. Thank God Kerry is still looking into it, our country needs the truth

:kick:

[Independent_Liberal]

164. Good to know Kerry is still working on it

I knew he wouldn't abandon us.

[Independent_Liberal]

165. BTW, like many of you, I do believe

Bush is going down. Yep, there's no way he'll be able to survive.

Like some of you said, Kerry and Edwards are the last two people in the world who Bush and his buddies would want to pull this on.

They won't let it stand.

[Amaryllis]

167. You're right; Edwards isn't exactly the type to take it lying down either.

[intensitymedia]

170. although both have been doing fairly good corpse imitations ...

yet may we hope

[rigel99]

173. BUSH will be impeached by end of summer

this is my prediction, he won't see the light of the next Sept. 11...
how fitting.. get rid of the guy that started the worst chapter in American history...

outta here.. he's gone.. but it won't be kerry bringing him down.. it'll be noname citizens... and we know who they are now...

[kster]

175. I predicted that

everyone will know the election was stolen by the end of August,impeached by the end of summer even better.Kerry/Edwards knew they couldn't bring this operation down alone,that it would have to be a team of dedicated investigators or "noname citizens" to do it.In the end, I think they will acknowledge this.

[garybeck]

176. but impeachment would

only bring Cheney or Hastert into the office. another puppet for lying killers.

and I still don't see the pubnicks in the congress impeaching him...

[Amaryllis]

177. It would take such a huge and blatant smoking gun that even MSM

couldn't ignore it, and massive citizen protest, like hundreds of thousands camped out on the capital steps or some such thing...
maybe if someone who actually was involved in tabulator switching of vote totals came forward and testified that Karl Rove had him do it...something like that.

[ginnyinWI]

178. It might take some whistleblower

or maybe several of them, then a respected journalist with tons of credibility to report it, and then maybe the networks would pick it up--but the evidence would have to be overwhelming. I think also, Bush's numbers would have to remain low all summer, or they still won't want to touch him. But as it's going now, he'll still be at least as shaky this summer as he is now. And the Repub Congress will be looking worse and worse.

But then, say the story is out: Republicans stole votes to get Bush elected. Then what? Bush can deny he was involved, and maybe he really wasn't--maybe they kept him in a state of plausible deniability. If I were Rove, that's what I'd do--but Cheney likely knows. Then Bush won't just say, oops, and leave. More likely he'll just stay in place as a very, very, very lame duck, the 2006 elections will swing Democratic, and hopefully, with electoral reform, a Dem president in 2008.

[Amaryllis]

179. I agree Rove would have kept * in the dark; it would be the only smart way

to do it. Bet Olberman would report it...it would take a HUGE whistleblowing event; mayb several whistle blowers all coming forth at once.

[Dancing_Dave]

181. I don't see that happening with a Republican Congress

Work to reform the voting systems on a state by state level, vote in a lot of Democrats in 2006, then out he goes.

It's true that a few Republicans will abandon him, such a Ron Paul, but not many. We don't have to have a majority in both the House and Senate to take Bush and Cheney out. But we need to make BIG gains in the House for starters. Given a bit of election reform where it's most needed, that's very likely indeed.

[Dancing_Dave]

180. The only way they could really trace that all out

Is talk to just about everyone on the voting rolls.

I hope this turns out to be for real, not just something a campaign worker says to keep a contributer on board.

[jen4clark]

182. me too

I did make it clear to the guy from the beginning I didn't have any money so I don't think he was trying to squeeze me for $$. I poured out my bit and when I asked if Kerry was aware it was stolen, he said yes. I was so excited I didn't ask details of what they were doing, just asked about general stuff and he was very sort of matter of fact about what he told me. Like someone said way upthread - grain of salt. I want to believe it so bad I can taste it but I'm also tired of being smashed into the ground so I'm not taking it as absolute.

[Amaryllis]

183. My sentiments exactly....want to believe it, but not going to count on it.