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S.O.S. in Ohio did not allow recount of 3% sample in DRE TS counties-why?

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berniew1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-06-05 10:33 AM
Original message
S.O.S. in Ohio did not allow recount of 3% sample in DRE TS counties-why?
Even though the DRE machines have a memory that stored the individual election day votes by precinct, and
there could have been a recount of the votes from DRE touchscreens just like other counties by printing out the individual vote results by precinct. (I don't think that voter identity is an issue since the individual votes aren't identified by voter.) But the Ohio S.O. S. decreed that there would be no recount of election day votes in Ohio for touchscreen counties.
(See Green Recount Witness summary of Auglaize County recount at
http://www.flcv.com/greenrc.html )

But there is another issue, the recount and audit teams found evidence of widespread fraud and vote manipulation in at least 3 of the touchscreen counties, Mohoning, Franklin, and Auglaize. Further audit of these counties likely would have produced further evidence.

So what was the real reason for not allowing a recount and audit in touchscreen counties in Ohio?

http://northnet.org/minstrel/alpage.htm Mahoning
http://www.flcv.com/fraudpat.html Mahoning and Franklin
http://www.flcv.com/mahonts.html
http://www.flcv.com/mahondt.html
http://www.flcv.com/franklin.html


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berniew1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-06-05 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
1. Even more touchscreen fraud documented in Florida & no audit, why?
Widespread vote switching in Florida touchscreen counties,
as well as widespread dirty tricks and manipulation of absentee and provisional ballots to suppress minority and Dem votes.

http://www.flcv.com/fraudpat.html
http://www.flcv.com/dirtytrf.html
http://www.flcv.com/EIRSFla.html
http://www.flcv.com/EIRSFla2.html

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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-06-05 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. It would be interesting to compare the exit polls of all counties in Ohio
controlling for the type of voting machine against the actual results.

I'll bet that the varience of results in counties using paper ballots would be within the projected MOE, while those using electronic voting would, oddly enough, show Bush winning outside of the predicted MOE.
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berniew1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-06-05 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Already done to some degree; Hout, Freeman, myself, etc. showed
Edited on Sun Feb-06-05 11:10 AM by berniew1
statistically that there was a big unexplained swing in touchscreen counties in Florida, Ohio, Pennsylavania, etc.
Link to all these studies in
http://www.flcv.com/fraudpat.html

my study for Florida which got similar results to Houts(U. of Calif.-Berkeley) study showed big unexplained swing in the big touchscreen counties.
The documentation of widespread vote machine fraud patterns and other manipulation of votes in those counties are seen to explain this swing. See above URL.

The best Exit Poll data by county/precinct has not been released, but the big swings are in states with documented touchscreen switching like Florida, Ohio, Pennsylvania.
http://www.flcv.com/ussumall.html


my statistical vote analysis for Florida was
http://www.flcv.com/fla04EAS.html

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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-06-05 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. Thanks!
TIA has been making the case on a state-to-state basis for some time, but I'd like to see the detailed results in Ohio and Florida to see if they mirror the agragated inference. I think this is where the case can be made that Electronic voting is susceptible to fraud.
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-06-05 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
4. Do you know if the DRE data are still intact, or have they been wiped?
In other words, if the recount were to be ordered now on those machines that Blackwell refused to allow to be examined, are the data still there? No doubt Blackwell and the other GOPs involved in the fraud have been pushing to get the DRE memories erased, destroying the evidence. Has this happened yet? And if not yet, do you know what the status of preserving the DRE data is?

As always, thanks for everything you are doing, including telling us about it!
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KaliTracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-06-05 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. there were some lawsuits asking for freezing the machines for inspection
I don't know where they stand. Many areas in Ohio are getting ready for Spring Ballot initives (such as levies that didn't pass, etc.) - so I don't know what this will mean besides the data getting wiped for the next election -- BUT -- aren't things like Ballots, etc. supposed to be accessible for 22 months after an election -- wouldn't then the DRE data be a part of this rule?
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-06-05 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. Unfortunately,
the lawsuit to secure the machines (which Kerry entered) for examination, filed in the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of Ohio., only applied to one county's Triad machines. See Will Pitt's article here. http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/122804V.shtml

It was the Triad tech's comments that caused Conyers' to request the first FBI investigation. The FBI responded that after "investigation", they found nothing to be concerned with. I don't know if that has any effect on the court matter, which I believe is still pending.



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berniew1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-06-05 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. I don't know about Ohio, but there has been big court case in N. Mexico
over clearing the touchscreens. New Mexico had widespread touchscreen fraud similar to Florida and Ohio, and the Greens have fought a big battle there over being allowed to carry out a recount/audit before the machines were cleared. New Mexico had not only documented vote switching similar to F. & O. but also documented phantom votes(more votes than voters), as has also been found in other touchscreen counties where an analysis was conducted.
But no state has allowed a full scale audit of their touchscreens so far. Apparently they don't want the public to know how broke the U.S. electoral system is.

I think there may still be court action going on in Ohio on this.
But its not getting much attention. Blackwell has been successful at violating Ohio law by preventing access to vote logs, public election information, etc. by the public and recount teams, somehow without being taken to task.


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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-06-05 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. This really needs to be pushed and publicized. If DRE data are wiped,
then there goes some of the strongest evidence for fraud.

The expressed outrage about this needs to be loud and constant, or they will succeed in covering their tracks. How do we go about ramping up the publicity?

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berniew1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-06-05 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. Does anyone know status of Green legal efforts in Ohio on the recount issu
I hear they are still trying to get a more legitimate recount, where you really look into fraud and try to determine the will of the voter. Does anyone know if they still have legal efforts ongoing in Ohio?

And what is status of their legal efforts in New Mexico???
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KaliTracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-06-05 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
6. This reeks.... how can anyone think we had a fair honest election?
Because they don't know about this? When they hear, they say, "sore losers" -- "wouldn't make a difference" -- "Why are you still talking about elections?"

though -- I DID get my Letter to WMUB (88.5 Oxford Ohio) read on air Friday -- they read the First Paragraph and Last paragraph of a rather long "information" post I sent them via e-mail, and during the reading, referred people to the Website for the Cobb/Lamarche links I had provided in my letter!

http://www.wmub.org/feedback/2005/02/voting-in-ohio.htm...
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Amaryllis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-06-05 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
8. What is he hiding? Who wants to guess? Let me think....
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #8
18. Yeah... why?
Why are they hiding this? Why won't they do a simple recount as described by law?

This example makes the case for getting rid of e-voting. Even with a smooth machine, they won't allow any audits, so a recount from a trail of paper a mile long ain't even gonna happen. Kiss your little ol e-vote, goodbye!

Here's a new saying for the e-vote makers: Your vote belong to us!
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KaliTracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-06-05 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
11. This area (Butler County) has a vote on Tuesday Feb. 8th. Though we
have punch cards -- I fear that unless the election machines were impoounded in other areas, it might be too late -- anyone have any information on this?
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berniew1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-06-05 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
13. I notice that one county(Lake) did a recount of 3% DRE sample
as noted for Lake County at
http://www.flcv.com/greenrc.html

They printed a 3% sample out of memory and did a handcount to see if it matched the memory total- which it did for the sample- which would be expected in this case.

But Lake is also a county with no indication of touchscreen vote fraud.

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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-06-05 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
15. Kick! Let's keep this going. n/t
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berniew1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-06-05 10:47 PM
Response to Original message
16. Anyone know which DREs have individual votes stored in memorty like these
in Ohio? The Green Recount Team said these were
ESE but I know some in Ohio are ES&S
Are these 2 ways of abreviating the same machine?

Which of the commonly used touchscreen machines have votes in memory and thus a papertrail; and why are most not aware of the papertrail??

Anyone know why they were allowed to get away with not doing a recount in the counties like Auglaize that had DREs with a paper trail?

The reason obviously wasn't that they couldn't do it, since Lake county did do a recount of 3% sample.

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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 12:09 AM
Response to Original message
17. kick!
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