This forum is now called 2004 Election Results and Discussion.
I am instructing the moderators to NOT MOVE ANYTHING out of this forum, even if it does not have anything to do with the topic of the forum. Want to talk about the Condi Rice nomination? Go for it. Apparently nobody here has noticed that it has nothing to do with 2004 Election Results and Discussion. But that's not my problem.
I must admit I am shaking my head in disbelief at the lack of perspective displayed over this. It makes absolutely no sense. But I guess we've always known that DUers are very resistant to change.
Everything is back to the way it was before.
And by the way: before you start celebrating or complaining, I am extremely disappointed with the behavior of some people on both sides of this debate. I cannot believe that something as inconsequential as a name change has caused you to act in an absolutely disgraceful manner, and I strongly suggest that you modify your behavior immediately.
If anyone has anything to add, post it in the Ask the Administrators forum. The moderators HAVE been instructed to lock any further topics debating this issue.
53. Exactly! It felt like someone 'moved my cheese.' Now everything's cool!
Although I must admit when I just logged on and saw the "2004" heading again, I thought I was having "flashbacks." I had to quick, take a look at the date on everything...to make sure that somehow my computer hadn't fallen into a time warp!
Now we can go back to saving the world...entirely centered!
You are mistaken about the Condi hearings. Barbara Boxer discussed the election irregularites and how the SOS needs to be cognizant of the problems. She went on to ask how it is that our admin can insist that we are bringing democracy to other nations when we cannot guarantee democracy and honest elections in our nation.
Several repugs responded to her and Cornyn even berated the dems for not giving up on the election conspiracy stuff.
Condi's hearings do involve election reform. Boxer is our voice in the senate regarding election reform and she is the only dem with back bone. We have to watch her back and remain aware of her stances so that we can be supportive of her.
Thank you for saying that. I also believe this issue of voting reform revolves around us being aware of all things political. If we do not know what the Senators are saying, how would we know who is fighting with us? People that want to focus EXCLUSIVELY can form a group, which was the original proposal.
Condi Rice's confirmation has a lot to do with how we are targeting Senators for election reform. We are beginning an important dialogue with them, and there is also the matter of Boxer and that we support her courage and integrity and those who stand up in the same way.
and yes, I agree whole heartedly with you about election reform being the penultimate action for us to achieve. Yes, we must focus on this issue and bring about real reform, before it is too late. However, the problem you are seeing on this forum is actually the solution for our stated goal. I feel it is premature to demand this hard focus just yet. We are now seeking to identify and create a common grassroots language and voice. This is what DU has and does give us. It also enables us to find and focus our sights on current and future champions who will help further our cause of reformation. Yes, SOS confirmations, votes in the Senate against Rice, John Kerry's viability as a leader for our voice are not causes that deal immediatly with the most important one of election reform. But first, before we undertake this step of reclaiming our country, we must begin to build a power base and let that base know that we will support them in other endeavours that seek to challenge the current administration. Aside from a mass revolt, where we the people storm down the Capital's walls, our stated goal of election reform will only happen from working within the current power structure that is in place. We as a group are building this, now. It is a harrowing and surprisingly fortifying process we are involved with and there will be confusion. I believe it is a necessary evil at this stage. This forum reflects that necessity. What you are seeing and getting impatient with is the small baby steps of a National movement that is going to be spoken about in history books. Who are the players? What is the plan? Who are the allies and oppositional forces at play to make our goal of reformation emerge? Building a base for our champions, backed by we the people is just beginning. We cannot compartmentalize an attack so vast and mighty as the realization of stolen election(s) just yet. It is not as easy as shouting "Here is what we want... so do it now!" It is a complex, multi-leveled and interconnected approach that is necessary now. If we are to gain our goal of election reform, this is how our movement must begin. With the help of this forum, as confused and unfocused as it appears to be, we have used information from it and made huge differences that will lead to our final goal. Boxer stood alone, on Jan. 6th, yet stood because of our raised voices of demand and support. Thanks, in part, to the information gleaned from this babble of a forum. She was joined by Kerry as a united voice of dissention against Rice, at her confirmation hearing, because of our voice of support. A voice of over 75,000 that found it's way to her, in part, because of this unfocused forum. The speeches by Democratic Senators today with their promise of a nay vote for tommorow, comes not from a focussed cry of election reform, but from all of us seeking to be merely heard first. This was afforded us by this unfocussed forum. Without the fluid interchange on this forum, the added side bars and extraneous information, I fear we will become mired into discussion with a myopic approach and not have the tools to act. Today, we have heard the "L" word levied at one of the most powerful positions in our government as well as the leaders themselves that seek this appointment, from Senators that want reform as well. If we first paint them as thieves and liars, the next step of accusation of immoral election theft will come easily into this Nation's zeitgeist. I am afraid that if this forum becomes too rarefied, the information necessary for this forward momentum won't be available for the here and now, but rather lost on some deeply covered disconneced thread. I am seeing the ground work being laid today, gaining strength and unity from our cries of outrage. For this plan of election reform to be established we must show the opposition our strength and force of will through our elected officials. Not just on one issue, but on a plethora of levels, that stack to a pinnacle of strength and defiance. When our representitives, backed by all of us, have the confidence to make that startling leap into the ultimate statement of "Liars and monsters, you have stolen this country's finest tool of democracy and we as a nation will never allow it to happen again... here is our demand for election reform." It will be a demand from a Nation led in common voice by our chosen champions. Then they will listen, because they must. I understand your desire to attain focus on this forum about election reform. I also fear it will be forgotten if we do not stay focused. I do want it, I want it now, I have never been more serious and concerned about any other issue that has affected my Country's dream and ideal in my life. But, I also call for a modicum of patience and restraint from all of us, as we all rebuild a stumbling Democracy. Let the babble continue for a bit as we push towards focus and strength. We are seeking our voice and this issue is at the heart of everything we are doing. To limit it's scope is premature. It will not be forgotten nor replaced. I believe it is gaining ground daily. We will have election reform in this country, but there are still steps to be taken before the end of this journey. Allow this confusion for a bit longer as we gain our strength.
The winds of change are blowing...do you feel the breeze?
48. you have put words to the gut feelings of many, feelthebreeze
...there is something about this "fluid interchange" as you call it--fits these times in which info channels are so multi-dimensional and dynamic. Our election theft affinity group has developed a synergy for networking and support under these conditions and it is successful. We are at a crossroads but I think we can maintain our collective vision for the next phase of this struggle.
This is a Coalition of the Stubborn -- those who know we can do MUCH better than this shambles of an election system --who make it our highest priority. And we realize how linked this is to the bigger picture of how our government and society functions in every aspect. We have now witnessed an election decided by the supreme court instead of the voters, and an election decided by voting machines instead of the voters. (Added to the "old style" vote suppression, alive and well...) We have serious and undeniable grievances.
Maybe this is a good time for those who have been with this forum since Nov 3 to realize the value of what we have here. The efforts today to focus the discussion and provide more organization are well-intentioned certainly, but...?!? I have worked with a lot of group projects. There's a time to let it happen and a time to make improvements. The majority rejected the changes for now and were heard.
Welcome to DU feelthebreeze, and Thank You Skinner. :)
Why should it be any different with this particular issue?
And I recommend that you reconsider this statement: "NOT MOVE ANYTHING" (in its proper context). However, I find myself at a loss for words to politely describe the short of behavior that I see this opening leading to. Certainly, however, some topics like "What my cat just spit up" (and the innumerable copycats) would be better posted in the Lounge (yeah, yeah, I see it coming).
And while beating up on our own does seem to be a favorite pastime, our forefathers were known to "tombstone" people on the grounds of being a "general nuisance". -- You gotta do what you gotta do.
"I am instructing the moderators to NOT MOVE ANYTHING out of this forum, even if it does not have anything to do with the topic of the forum."
after all, what makes the forum isn't the name or the rules for topics, It's the People
We form a community
that is why this forum is different than the others, that is why there is so much energy here
we have access to the greatest knowledge bank the world has ever known, the Internet and working as a collective we learn further and faster than one person sifting through the web and DU forums could ever hope to
this is our Living Brainstorm
do not doubt our ability to affect change through this medium
While I think a name change was a good step to help organize the group I also think it had some other strange effects.
Also, Condoleezza Rice might not be directly connected to the issue of election fraud but the senators opposing her are showing some guts. And for me that is what we'll need for election reform. The democrats are gearing up I think. Opposing Dr. Rice is a step we need to support. Those same Senators and Representatives will also hopefuly be on our side for election reform changes.
We are interested in election reform, but at the same time we are figuring out what is broken. In order to find what is broken there is still a lot of info to be found around the 2004 election. With the name not having the word fraud, or election, or 2004, it made me wonder what should be posted. As for the Condi hearings, we are stuck with this system of government and we NEED to know the players if we want to cause change. MANY of us know nothing about civics or government protocol. How can we reform such a huge thing as elections without that knowledge. I find this forum quite focused myself. Each thread becomes a classroom, after a while you know which classes you need, and which you have already taken. As for completely off subject things...sometimes people just need a laugh. Thank you!
82. I really don't care at all what the name is. What I DO care about is
Edited on Wed Jan-26-05 12:37 PM by Amaryllis
that this forum is getting so big it's hard to navigate and lots of valuable stuff gets buried in a day or two and there are those of us who are working very hard on fraud/reform and having so much unrelated stuff makes us a whole lot less efficient and effective! I really LIKED nashua advocate's idea of getting focused again on election stuff. It was right on. We have a ton of work to do and it needs to get done as quickly and efficiently as possible, and the sheer volume of threads in this forum, many of which are not related to elections, makes this forum a whole lot less effective for those of us seriously trying to work on these issues. I LIKED that people were headed toward getting more focused in this forum. And I wish the mods would just stick to having people just post their thread in the forum that is most relevant. There were at least as many of us who were happy with the change as who were unhappy, which was evident if you read the threads on this topic.
Look at the threads in this forum! A huge percentage are not related to elections and those of us who are working hard on this issue have to plow through all this unrelated stuff to work together on affecting real change! Why are people so resistant to just posting in the forum that fits their topic?
64. Happy to continue to contribute. ..... just wanted to be sure...
...that Skinner did not consider my genuine efforts at team-building to be 'disgraceful.' I'm delighted to have whatever name helps most to maintain and enhance our efforts. Glad that that seems to be happening with the reversion to the 2004ER&D!
83. DOn't leave! You contribute a lot of valuable stuff. And as far as
Edited on Wed Jan-26-05 12:45 PM by Amaryllis
your name change ideas, what the heck is wrong with just election fraud and reform action forum? This was not one of the choices and if it gets down to a vote it needs to include choices that weren't in the poll. Although it looks like a moot point now. And as I said before I don't care waht the name is, I care about focus and being able to find info we need to do our work on fraud and reform without having to plow through lots of unrelated threads.
47. Thank you for your consideration of this issue, Skinner......
Maybe we HAVE acted "in an absolutely disgraceful manner". I can see that we have in your eyes, and I wish that wasn't the case. You are greatly admired and respected by a great majority of us here (goes without saying! ) as a voice of reason, fairness and leadership. Even if you're occasionally kicking our butts for misbehavior along the way, we always appreciate your kindness and open-mindedness.
Thank you for putting up with us .... :hi:
:loveya: We'll get back to work now..PROMISE! :loveya:
I never posted anything on the name change subject -- it's a hard one.
All this is ALIVE and things tend to be interrelated, and it's darn hard to have the responsibility of trying to put it into rows and columns, or the formatting restrictions of the forum. But it's working pretty well in spite of that!
Please take some comfort in the fact that so many of us DEEPLY APPRECIATE the work you do, and deeply appreciate this forum being here.
A lot of bad things have been sold in the name of "progress," like Diebold, ES&S, Sequoia for example.
Also consider that this group is particularly sensitive to authoritarian manipulation--having been abused for too long by The Management, ie. the govt and media. It's reassuring to know that the objections at DU were heard yesterday. Like watching the senate weighing in on C-Span, but with the miracle of a reasoned response from the Administration.
Pigeons hmmmm...Pigeons seem really successful at what they do. Very resourceful. Don't need a lot of herding. They have their own herd instinct. Are not an endangered species. They are survivors for reasons that may not be clearly understood, allowing for evolution to occur naturally :)
PROGRESS: gradual improvement or growth or development; "advancement of knowledge"; "great progress in the arts"; "their research and development gave them an advantage" the act of moving forward toward a goal a movement forward; "he listened for the progress of the troops" develop in a positive way; "He progressed well in school"; "My plants are coming along"; "Plans are shaping up" form steadily; "Resistance to the manager's plan built up quickly" move forward, also in the metaphorical sense; "Time marches on"
The one I'm talking about is #2 above.
"the act of moving forward toward a goal" Which as I interpret it is... AKA "Change".
But, being that I'm more of a
concerned with practical matters; "a matter-of-fact (or pragmatic) approach to the problem"; "a matter-of-fact account of the trip" guided by practical experience and observation rather than theory; "a hardheaded appraisal of our position"; "a hard-nosed labor leader"; "completely practical in his approach to business"; "not ideology but pragmatic politics" of or concerning the theory of pragmatism
I think this whole discussion about the name of a forum which doesn't really represent that goal any longer is a total waste of time and is indicative of the disease rather than the cure.
"Pigeons seem really successful at what they do. Very resourceful." Yes, pooping all over their homes and pushing native species to extinction. Almost, like neocons in those respects.
"They are survivors for reasons that may not be clearly understood, allowing for evolution to occur naturally" Here, I will point out the Dodo was a type of pigeon.
which worried me a lot less than restrictions on content.
Moving so many threads around to other forums was disconcerting. And a good argument has been made by others that they were related in the larger sense. Made me wonder...OK, so what IS the purpose of this forum now? But we don't need to waste time doing that...examining navels...we need to move on, exactly as you are saying. However it had to be dealt with in the interests of the group reaction. I submit that the Administrators made a very pragmatic, very timely reversal--given the obvious effects of their original decision.
We are progressing on our goals--aren't we? There have been many progress reports posted here--don't think we need a highly paid consultant to tell us so.
I like pigeons and dodos too. And pragmatists. Peace :)
72. Thanks, Skinner. The 2004 election ain't over ...
... until the votes have REALLY been counted and the election thieves have been locked up. Appreciate your decision to change the name back. Even we tin-foil-hatters appreciate a little stability in our lives.
I think you were right in the first place, but whatever, ain't gonna get worked up over it man, its all groovy. You are right about the Condosleeza threads, I noticed that too in another thread. But whatever...
It's not about the forum name change. It's about how the political scene--for instance, Boxer's challenge of the Rice nomination, following her challenge of the Ohio Electors, and the progressive coalition she is creating--will impact potential Election Reform. We cannot get Election Reform in a vacuum. (We cannot depend on Congress for Election Reform--too many BushCons--but Congressional progressives can play a vital role in investigation and public education.)
I'm glad to see this forum remain, no matter what the name is. I am also happy to have more latitude in discussion topics. I think it is unfortunate that we can not be civil about the whole thing. :crazy:
Moderating DU ers and esp this driven crazy forum is worse that herding cats! It is a wonderful place though...Great appreciation to you for what you do!:yourock: :loveya: :grouphug: :kick: :toast: :party: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya:
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