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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 10:40 AM
Original message
A NEW legal challenge in Ohio!!!
From the Glibs' recount listserv...

Dear friends,

The shameful conduct of our Ohio Senators on January 6, and partisan stonewalling by Ohio's Secretary of State, Ken Blackwell, left us all tired and battered. Any hopes we had for the Contest of Election suit have dissipated. Although the results were expected, in the midst of the skirmishes, there is a new beacon of hope.

Triumphal tears flowed in Lafayette Park when one brave Senator, Barbara Boxer, stepped forward. Sheer joy and exhilaration enveloped the Winter Freedom bus riders lobbying their representatives in Washington. The tireless organizing work in Ohio and across the nation called attention to the injustices of the 2004 election. The Congressional Black Caucus and their allies would not stand down in the face of mounting evidence of electoral fraud. This led to a rekindling of hope and a resurgence of commitment to electoral justice.

We are at a critical juncture. It is not a lull or a moment of defeat, but a turning point upon which Democracy itself depends. Now is the time to step forward, hit the streets, and loudly sing songs of freedom. The waters of justice, though now but a trickle, are far from still. Together we must make it rain, make it rain for the people of Ohio and all Americans. In the next few weeks we will regroup in
preparation for the next phase of the struggle. A team of very capable and experienced attorneys from California and other states will arrive to lead a new legal effort with other attorneys from Ohio as well as the original election contest team. The work ahead will be demanding and complex. Volunteers are needed at every level to help with organizing, investigating, educating and mobilizing. Over the next several months we hope to have enough solid evidence to pursue criminal prosecutions and prove widespread electoral fraud.

On January 30 there will be a meeting at (time and location in Columbus to be announcd) to meet the new attorneys and launch a consolidated campaign. They will present a range of possible legal options and offer recommendations as to how to proceed. We are depending on your input. This will be a time to share your ideas and help determine our course. We will establish working committees which will handle various ongoing tasks. The new legal team will issue regular updates and maintain a website for announcements. This will be a true community effort where everyone's contribution is valued. Please attend. If you can't be present, call (614) 946 -3834 (this number can be used temporarily until we establish a voice message line) to be added to our contact list. Someone will get back to you promptly. We look forward to working together and continuing this groundswell for electoral reform.

Regards,
Evan Davis

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BamaLefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
1. Uncover.... But Not Accomplish
Kerry 04 is history, now we are fighting for Clark, Clinton, Warner or whoever the candidate is in 2008.

May the truth be revealed!
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ynksnewyork2 Donating Member (138 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. exactly!!
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NVMojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. I'd like to know how and why Kerry was done in ...he still seems to be
Edited on Sat Jan-22-05 11:10 AM by NVMojo
a threat to the neocons. And I am sick and tired of the neocons sending our young people to their corporate enhancement wars while the smear any war veteran who takes them on. Sick bastards.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. What I find ridiculous is how so many on this forum write off
John Kerry when it is so obvious that the neo-cons and fundies fear him so much. They are still trying to destroy him (petition to excommunicate, petition to have him tried for treason, et cetera) and believe he is a powerful foe, yet our folks turn their back on him. He hasn't turned his back on us and he is pursuing the BFEE deliberately and methodically. He just isn't doing it the way many "instant gratification" posters here think he should, so therefore they write him off.

I will not write off John Kerry, he is our most powerful leader, as is obvious since the neocons fear him so.

John Kerry is a hero and is my president.

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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. In most cases it's not our folks turning their back on him.
It's the DUDQ chorus singing their songs of division and hate.

NGU.


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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #6
37. I could provide a list of the choir members
but I think that would upset the mods and they would delete it.

Their constant song of despair is out of tune, way of key and gets on my nerves.

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New Earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #37
43. uh, better not talk about those guys!
Edited on Sat Jan-22-05 04:02 PM by Faye
Tom will tell you that you are divisive!!!! :eyes:
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. Oh, I know!
That doesn't mean I don't maintain a private list of names of those divisive little snots. :evilgrin:

:hi:
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tommcintyre Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #43
60. You WERE being divisive Faye. Here's the proof:
Faye's post:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

My response:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

<Anyone with time (and interest in potential "distractions") may want to read more of my posts in this thread.>

It's one thing to disagree, it's quite another to "invite" those you disagree with to go somewhere else; AND try to SHUT THEM UP. <If someone tried to do the same thing to the "pro-Kerry" people, I'd feel, and do, EXACTLY the same.>

Shame on you Faye!

btw: Feel free to keep bringing this up. I'll be glad to oblige you by reposting these links in answer. Except I won't waste more valuable time rewriting the response. I'll just copy and paste this one, so I'm not distracted further from working on what really matters. <I thought taking the time to write this may prove useful to those who are sincerely focusing on the important issue. If anyone sees a similar post elsewhere, please quietly PM me, and I'll go paste this message there.>

Who knows, maybe Faye's trying to stir up the same divisive shit right here? Before commenting further on this (taking the "bait"), I would advise ALL (pro, anti, mixed) to remember WE ALL HAVE A COMMON GOAL - MEANINGFUL ELECTION REFORM.

Another btw: We should all expect more "distractions" like this to "pop up" (either as stand-alone threads, or as unnecessary "diversions" in very meaningful threads like this one). <I comment more about this here.>
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

All of us that are sincere and serious about exposing election fraud and bringing about meaningful election reform, need to KEEP OUR EYES ON THE PRIZE.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. Now who is being divisive and has taken their focus off of the
issues? Actually, this post borders on a violation of the rules. :shrug: Looks like a personal attack and/or stalking? :freak:
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tommcintyre Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #62
73. Aw C'mon merh. FOCUS!
At the very least, I will respond that your judgment is being clouded because you are too emotionally involved in a certain issue? YOU perceive me as an "enemy" of your "friend" on this issue, so you see ME as your "enemy"?

"Actually, this post borders on a violation of the rules. :shrug: Looks like a personal attack and/or stalking?"

How could any "rational" person come to such a conclusion? Faye, posted about ME in this thread (attacked?) - in case you missed that. At worst, I "took the bait" - as you have also done. The difference is,

"I thought taking the time to write this may prove useful to those who are sincerely focusing on the important issue."

A little word of advice. If you are going to make such wild accusations, take the time to TRY to build your case on facts. People will have much more respect for your opinions, and you won't appear like you are emotionally flying off the handle again.

btw: Respond if you must, but I won't be responding again. Obviously, you have nothing OF SUBSTANCE to say on this issue. I look forward to reading future posts of yours where you don't have overly strong emotional bias clouding your judgment?

Meanwhile, I getting back to work on what REALLY matters - meaningful election reform.

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New Earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #73
74. merh has nothing to say of substance?
um, what forum have you been reading? :shrug:
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tommcintyre Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #74
75. nothing OF SUBSTANCE to say on "this issue".
Obviously, your post about ME here. A truly pathetic attempt Faye.
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New Earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #75
76. attempt at what?
:shrug:
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tommcintyre Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #76
78. Funny how you left off the end of that sentence, isn't it?
have nothing OF SUBSTANCE to say on this issue. Gee, could that be interpreted as an attempt to cloud the issue?
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New Earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #78
80. what are you talking about?
Edited on Sat Jan-22-05 07:33 PM by Faye
i really don't understand what you are getting at :shrug:
and what is it exactly you are trying to imply about me? have you even bothered to read my original reply to your first response here?

you don't know shit about me and you make baseless accusations. my original post here wasn't 'attempting' anything other than warning merh not to point out Kerry bashers as I have done before she hears from you that SHE is 'divisive'. that was all. have fun.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #73
100. Please stay out of threads like this if you feel they are taking
you away from your meaningful election reform work. I would hate to distract your efforts. I just find it odd that you accuse others for posting divise and emotional posts when yours lack such impartial clarity. :shrug:

pzzzzzzzzzzzcheeeeeeeeeeezzzz.
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tommcintyre Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 07:18 AM
Response to Reply #100
120. CW's thread is GREAT...
It's your close-minded, divisive, and now exclusionary comments to me that I find almost totally worthless. Not totally worthless because they ARE a good example of how NOT to be constructive.

You really don't get it, do you? This is NOT about pro/anti Kerry shit. As obnoxious as I find your comments to be, I still would be willing to help defend you if someone was trying to inhibit your freedom of expression, or "encouraging" you not to participate because they didn't agree with your views (as YOU are clearly now doing).

That kind of attitude REALLY isn't very progressive merh.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #120
123. No, you don't get it. It is you that started the divisiveness, the
personal attacks on folks and your petty little judgmental diatribes about people not "focusing" and not being constructive. Go back and review all of your posts. You responded to a post that did not name you, it named "tom". The poster could have been referring to tom jones or tom payne or tom jefferson, but you, out of guilt for previously attacking the poster on another thread and labeling her divisive, came to this thread and reposted garbage from that other thread. So you personally attacked her and you stalked her by bringing arguments from one thread to another.

You are ignorant of what I have or have not done relative to the election reform issue, yet you assume that I am not being constructive because I came to the poster's defense. Now how silly is that? I will not defend your attacks on someone that has been part of the effort, no matter how much you have done to promote the effort. Rudeness is not defend-able and the only obnoxious comments are yours to me, Faye and bunnyplanet. Freedom of speech does not include the freedom to personally attack people on this forum. Feel free to attack their message, do not feel free to attack the person or their efforts.

You simply could have ignored the post and not respond to it, just as you had promised you would not respond to me again in this thread (which of course you must have forgotten since you again attacked me). I think the poster doeth protest too much!
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #123
124. Knock it off, you two!!
Yer killin' me here, ya big lugs!

NGU.


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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #124
126. Sorry ClassWarrior
Edited on Sun Jan-23-05 11:44 AM by merh
I just get tired of the "know it alls" that think they are the only ones doing something constructive. I'm one of those people that don't like being lectured to by folks that are so obviously misguided and uninformed. :silly:
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tommcintyre Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #123
133. For the record... incoherence should be ignored, not encouraged
Ya lost me at:

"You responded to a post that did not name you, it named "tom". The poster could have been referring to tom jones or tom payne or tom jefferson..." <and on reading further, it looks like ya went "downhill" from there.>

<Faye's original post here:>
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Tom will tell you that you are divisive!!!!


<Faye's explanation to ME what she was trying to do (posted here YESTERDAY):>
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

"...warning merh not to point out Kerry bashers as I have done before she hears from you that SHE is 'divisive'."
<I made bold the most important part for you. I hope that's enough for YOU to understand it?>


When I read your list of "possible Toms" her post could've been referring to, I nearly fell on the floor, I was laughing so hard. Actually, it could've been soooo funny, except you were serious, weren't you? I suggested you take the time to back up your claims with facts in my initial response to you. I was good advice. Too bad you didn't listen. You wouldn't have damaged your credibility so badly - as you have no doubt done here.

This experience with you reminds me of a cross between: "getting in a peeing contest with a skunk", and "dueling with someone who has an empty pistol" - a neither pleasant or satisfying experience. In hindsight, I should've known better. I've noticed you picking fights recently in other threads - as you did with me here. I should've ignored you as I will be doing after making this post (putting you on "ignore"). I'll take it off occasionally to see if you are making meaningful posts (again). Who knows, maybe something will change in your life, or whatever.
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New Earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #60
64. why would i of all people try to be divisive?
Edited on Sat Jan-22-05 06:50 PM by Faye
you obviously don't know anything about me. there are people here who have met me in person and know that i am not like that. i am actually very offended by the things you say about me. i have sacrificed debts and responsibilities to take part in patriotic events this past month, such as Jan. 6th and this past Thurday. i don't see how can anyone can even attempt to say something like that about me.

you seem to be alone in your opinion of me, despite maybe a few here and there who just don't say so. that being said, i see no reason to care what you 'think' you know about me.

ps) ask the people sitting around me at RFD's on Thursday night (ALL WHO POST ON THIS BOARD), just how 'divisive' or disruptive I am. I think you'll end up feeling pretty stupid.

oh yeah, ask these guys what i'm like, thanks: http://brainshrub.com/adventurefolder/inauguration2005/...

very bottom picture -

that's me with the glaring glasses and rosy cheeks on the left :hi:

oh and check out his whole site while you're there!
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #64
135. You're Mr. Scorpio??!
Well, you're kinda attractive... for an African American man...

:7

NGU.


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New Earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #135
136. he is um
uh, attractive isn't he? :loveya:

shhhh :hi:
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tommcintyre Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #135
137. Man.. you are cracking me up!
ROFL (with tears in my eyes even).

Faye, I think they moved your pix or put you into deep cover? B-) Or (very) heavy cosmetic (and other) surgury? ;)
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New Earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #137
138. brainshrub added pics
Edited on Sun Jan-23-05 11:00 PM by Faye
i am now in the pic, 3rd from the bottom i think....where we are all in the street - scubed holding the orange sign....

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New Earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #135
139. he added pics since i posted that
geezus kryst, forgive me for i have sinned :eyes: :P
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bunny planet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #60
67. What is your problem. Faye was in Washington protesting on the 20th.
Were you? Get over yourself.

Many of us still support Kerry and are also very serious about exposing and election fraud and restoring free and fair elections. Have you written to your state's Secretary of State yet to inquire about what kind of machines will be in use in your state in 2005? I suggest you start there.
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tommcintyre Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #67
95. Yes, and I was speaking on Election Fraud at our State Capitol...
Edited on Sat Jan-22-05 10:09 PM by tommcintyre
NION Rally. So what?

What counts is the substance of each individual thread - not who posted it, or what they've done before.

First, the more substantive issues:

"Have you written to your state's Secretary of State..."

We're dealing with the issue:

Safe Vote Hawai'i "...our goal is safer electronic voting."

Hawai`i Clean Elections an organization dedicated to research and education on the issue of campaign finance reform. HEP believes that elected officials should answer to voters, rather than to special interests. HEP is working to increase awareness of money in politics and promote proposals for comprehensive reform. HEP believes that only full public funding of political campaigns would eliminate the influence of big contributors and special interests. This reform would fundamentally transform the system and shift politicians' attention and obligations back where it belongs - to the public.

<On my site here.>
http://www.independentmediasource.com/hawaii_happenings...

If you have similar groups in you State, I suggest you participate/support them - if not, found them now.

On the same subject, if you haven't listened to the following interview yet, I strongly suggest you do so immediately. You will learn that we only have until the 2006 election (when HAVA mandated 100% (paperless so far) evoting goes into effect.) After that, DEMOCRACY IS GONE FOR GOOD. As ED Griffin (the executive producer of "Invisible Ballots" explains, <when that happens> "no reform candidate will EVER be able to win". <On my suggestion, the Hawaii Dem Party purchased "Invisible Ballots" and has been showing it to groups.> If you haven't seen it yet, I suggest you get it, watch it, and show it to as many people as you can ASAP.

http://www.independentmediasource.com/evotingfraud.htm#...
6-17-04 - Listen Online (52 minute interview) - INVISIBLE BALLOTS
Edward Griffin discusses electronic voting machines and how they will negatively affect our lives. (Source)
<G. Edward Griffin is the Executive Producer and host of the documentary, "Invisible Ballots". (watch preview online).>

Finally,
"Get over yourself"
was clearly an out-of-line personal "attack" (remark?). It was totally unnecessary and, understandably, has only served to diminish my opinion of you. It's something you might consider for future posts. Putting your "two cents in" is a lot what this board is about. But such additional comments accomplish nothing positive.

btw: "Many of us still support Kerry..." is NOT the issue at all. I would work just as hard to defend your position, should anyone try to intimidate your right to your opinion, and even invite you to "go elsewhere". I'm not kidding. If it happens, PM me, I'll be there.
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bunny planet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #95
102. Sorry for the emotional 'get over yourself'. I'm human afterall.
I know and like the person that you seemed to be directing your 'out of line' personal attack towards.

Your diminished opinion of me while unfortunate, seems premature seeing that it's based on one comment I made in defense of another dedicated person like yourself (and myself for that matter).

There are as many ways to view what has taken place in this past election as there are people on this board I'd imagine. There have been quite a lot of Kerry bashing threads on DU for weeks now. Those of us who feel that this is counterproductive, and does not accomplish anything positive have felt a bit under siege from the negativity. I think this is what catalysed the original post that highlighted several of these JK bashing threads and expressed frustration with them.

As for your other information, while given in a somewhat patronizing tone, I imagine due to your 'diminished opinion' of me, it will be helpful as a reference I'm sure. I'll check it out.



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tommcintyre Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 06:57 AM
Response to Reply #102
119. Aren't we all :)
The info wasn't meant to be delivered in a patronizing tone (abrupt yes - patronizing no). You "opened the door", and I was just glad to get more of the vital info out there. I am very glad to hear your going to check it out. Also (IMO), opinions are dynamic. They should change as new info is available. I do think you are a well-meaning person that is willing to be objective. That IS what is most important (and badly needed here.)

I would just like to share one other thought with you (for what its worth). No person, candidate, political party, etc. is the issue here. Whether we like/prefer someone/something or not is secondary. The real issue is just too important (so much is at stake). For me, I will continue to ask myself whether the thread/idea in question is moving us closer, or farther away from our goal - and act accordingly. That's the best I can do.

take care...
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #95
128. "btw: 'Many of us still support Kerry...' is NOT the issue at all";
Edited on Sun Jan-23-05 01:54 PM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
and "Putting your "two cents in" is NOT what this board is about", mcintyre.

You could not be more mistaken on both scores. This board is NOT for ivory-tower putative idealists; it's a battle wagon. And the sooner you and your kind understand that the better it will be for all concerned.

Such people do as much harm to the cause to which this board is sworn as any crypto or overt nazi. Do you think DU should give them houseroom? Grow up, or go to an ivory tower high-school debate board.
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Laurab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #60
79. Hey, I checked out the thread and I learned something:
pzzzzzzzzzzzcheeeeeeeeeeezzzz!
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New Earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #79
81. LOL
^w00t!!! exactly :hi:
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brainshrub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #60
96. I like Faye.
Edited on Sat Jan-22-05 09:53 PM by brainshrub
She's sweet.
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New Earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #96
97. aww thanks
:o hi :hi: you're sweet too!!
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #37
57. Yeah, and the only song they know is...
..."What a Fool Believes." ~shudder~

NGU.


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fooj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #37
111. Hi merh! it's fooj...Got a minute...?
What does DUDQ mean? Dem. Underground... just curious! BTW-I wish those dreary downers would go away, too! I try and stay away from them because sometimes they just put me over the edge!!! Have a good one! Peace!
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #111
113. Democratic Underground Drama Queens!
Edited on Sun Jan-23-05 01:09 AM by merh
ClassWarrior coined that for the overly emotional and totally irrational Kerry bashers.

I miss ClassWarrior's threads on the DUDQ. Let me get you a link so you can go enjoy one. I'll be back. :hi:

This is one of the threads. Enjoy!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Never Give Up! :hi:
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New Earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #113
114. omg!
Class Warrior is so divisive!!! :eyes:
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #114
115. No you are
Edited on Sun Jan-23-05 01:19 AM by merh
Or is it me :shrug:

I know you are, but what am I? :shrug:

How ya doing Faye? :freak: Be careful don't mention tom, dick or harry in any of your posts. Don't say Uncle Tom, our Dick Tracy or tricky dick or Harry Reaonser, some one may think you are posting about them and take it personal, you know what I mean? :freak:

What are they afraid of? :think:

Don't bother me, I am focusing! :silly:
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New Earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #115
116. LOL!!!
:hi:
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. Amen...........
Is there a statute of limitations on stolen elections? Kerry, of all Democrats, is the one these criminals fear the most. He knows where the bodies are buried. He's the one who had this election stolen from him. We may not be able to prove it....yet. But time is on our side, yes it is.
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sickinohio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #7
122. I still think the way to bring Bu$h down is to get
proof of his adulteress un-christianlike affair that he is no doubt (in my view) having with Condom Rice. There should be someone somewhere out there that is willing to spill the beans, shouldn't there?

:shrug: :smoke: :think:
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. Even Nixon feared Kerry, and they have attacked him ever since
Nonetheless, he has risen to the occasion every time. Posters at DU need to realize that Kerry is a lot brighter than they are. I think his strategies can be trusted.

If you throw enough mud, you build a nice mountain.
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Amaryllis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #12
38. They have good reason to fear Kerry. See this link:
Follow the Money
How John Kerry busted the terrorists' favorite bank.

By David Sirota and Jonathan Baskin

Two decades ago, the Bank of Credit and Commerce International (BCCI) was a highly respected financial titan. In 1987, when its subsidiary helped finance a deal involving Texas oilman George W. Bush, the bank appeared to be a reputable institution, with attractive branch offices, a traveler's check business, and a solid reputation for financing international trade. It had high-powered allies in Washington and boasted relationships with respected figures around the world.

All that changed in early 1988, when John Kerry, then a young senator from Massachusetts, decided to probe the finances of Latin American drug cartels. Over the next three years, Kerry fought against intense opposition from vested interests at home and abroad, from senior members of his own party; and from the Reagan and Bush administrations, none of whom were eager to see him succeed.

By the end, Kerry had helped dismantle a massive criminal enterprise and exposed the infrastructure of BCCI and its affiliated institutions, a web that law enforcement officials today acknowledge would become a model for international terrorist financing. As Kerry's investigation revealed in the late 1980s and early 1990s, BCCI was interested in more than just enriching its clients--it had a fundamentally anti-Western mission. Among the stated goals of its Pakistani founder were to "fight the evil influence of the West," and finance Muslim terrorist organizations. In retrospect, Kerry's investigation had uncovered an institution at the fulcrum of America's first great post-Cold War security challenge.

More than a decade later, Kerry is his party's nominee for president, and terrorist financing is anything but a back-burner issue. The Bush campaign has settled on a new strategy for attacking Kerry: Portray him as a do-nothing senator who's weak on fighting terrorism. "After 19 years in the Senate, he's had thousands of votes, but few signature achievements," President Bush charged recently at a campaign rally in Pittsburgh; spin that's been echoed by Bush's surrogates, conservative pundits, and mainstream reporters alike, and by a steady barrage of campaign ads suggesting that the one thing Kerry did do in Congress was prove he knew nothing about terrorism. Ridiculing the senator for not mentioning al Qaeda in his 1997 book on terrorism, one ad asks: "How can John Kerry win a war if he doesn't know the enemy?"

More: http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2004/0409.sir...
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Laurab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #38
86. This one sentence:
"Over the next three years, Kerry fought against intense opposition from vested interests at home and abroad, from senior members of his own party; and from the Reagan and Bush administrations, none of whom were eager to see him succeed."

really stood out when I read that, for some reason. I've read it before, but that's the first time I noticed the "over the next three years". This is a man who doesn't give up easily.
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Amaryllis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #86
89. That's what I keep thinking. He also is not afraid to stand up in the face
of intense pressure and criticism, which is why I hesitate to criticize him for his actions post election. There is so much behind the scenes stuff that we just don't know about. He did the same thing with the POW/MIA issue which was also highly unpopular and met with intense opposition from both parties. Of course, it didnt have nearly the political backlash of the BCCI investigation.
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il_lilac Donating Member (756 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. Kerry is my President too! n/t
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rdmccur Donating Member (622 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. Well said!
Kerry knows so much more than most (if not all) of us about the Bushes, etc. Greg Palast explained why Kerry conceded (even though he suspected or knew he had won the election) and it made all the sense in the world to me. Palast insinuated though that he (Kerry) had no backbone but Palast is not in Kerry's shoes!
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Amaryllis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #5
26. BFEE?
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. Bush Family Evil Empire.
From bartcop.com. Mike Malloy calls them the Bush Crime Family.

NGU.


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Amaryllis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. By any chance related to the evil empire in Star Wars? I see such
striking similarities! :)
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pacalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #5
32. They feel let down because Kerry didn't give them a circus show.
They apparently wanted a to see a good public scrap, which, of course, wouldn't have gotten Kerry anywhere. The corporate media wouldn't have shed light on the election fraud itself, but on a character assassination campaign against John Kerry.

Anyone who turned against John Kerry because WhatsHisFace cheated to stay in power is seriously displacing their anger. They've chosen to give a free pass to a life-long cheater & parasite who wanted the presidency so badly that he had to steal two elections to get what he wanted (as he has had to do to achieve anything in life).

To blame John Kerry for not acting like a shoot-from-the-hip fool after the election is unreasonable.
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Amaryllis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #5
39. Tried for treason? What's that about? Also see post #38 for why they
fear Kerry.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #39
47. Check out this thread.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

There is another one about a internet petition floating around against Kerry, but I couldn't find it. I think it was posted yesterday.

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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #39
112. Here is the other thread I was looking for on the treason
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Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #5
54. Thank you, Merh. I second that. n/t
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Catamount Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #5
66. I'm with you, merh! All the way!
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Laurab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #5
77. Yeah, bushit's regime wants Kerry to go away
and the DUDQ seem to want to help them.

Now, why in the world would the nut-cons be afraid of John Kerry? They're not letting up, which means they really DO want him to go away. Could it be he's got something on them? I sure as hell hope so. I don't write him off for ANYTHING. Deliberately and methodically indeed! Probably effectively, too.

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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #77
104. Thanks for the supportive reply.
Edited on Sat Jan-22-05 10:54 PM by merh
Seems that alot people like to attack posters that don't think the way they want them to. :shrug:

:hi: Thanks! :thumbsup:
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #5
85. You completely misundertstand their opposition
Edited on Sat Jan-22-05 07:51 PM by Eloriel
and in the process greatly -- and unnecessarily -- lionize John Kerry.

ANYone who stands in the way of their accumulation of power, even symbolically, is a threat. They would, and have, done what they could to discredit and destroy ANY Democrat, and will continue to do so.

It's not so much that kerry is a unique or especially muscular threat, but rather that he's a Democrat, and a Democrat in office would by definition keep a Republican OUT of office.

Further, the REAL threat is The People -- we are overwhelmingly in support of Democratic positions and policies, the demographics are continuing to move in the direction of supporting Democrats (as pitiful as they are), etc. They can't allow these trends to work out as they would without the kind of massive intervention and fraud they've been practicing, at all levels (not just election fraud -- they also have to lie about who they are and their policy initiatives and bills, giving them Orwellian, faux-Democratic names like "Clear Skies Initiative" to mask their true intent).

All the trends and all the demographics and the polls are against them (if they're read accurately and not "spun" by a complicit, enabling press). And that means the Republicans have no choice but to lie, cheat and steal IF they are to remain in power and they damn well intend to remain in power.

So it's not Kerry. Don't build him up as some sort of anti-Repug superstar because of their opposition to him -- that's a complete misreading of reality. Rather, their opposition to Kerry is merely Kerry as "generic Democrat" in a position to keep one of their own out of office. Period.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #85
98. Gee, you are so right, forgive me for my
misinterpretation of the facts. They have moved to have Biden ex-communicated and they have been assaulting Dean and Clark constantly in the press over the last several months and have petitions floating on the internet seeking to have then face charges as war criminals.

How silly of me. Kerry is just another dem.
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Alizaryn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #5
88. I think BamaLefty was saying that despite the fact
that Bush was inaugurated the battle HAS to continue for the future of any and all candidates to stand a chance. We have to fix the process of voting. (At least thats how I read it, not as a slam on Kerry.)
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #88
103. I think you should go back and recognize who I was responding
to. My reply was to NVMojo
"I'd like to know how and why Kerry was done in ...he still seems to be
a threat to the neocons. And I am sick and tired of the neocons sending our young people to their corporate enhancement wars while the smear any war veteran who takes them on. Sick bastards."

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Alizaryn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #103
106. Oops ...sorry merh. I responded to the wrong person.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #106
109. It's okay, I guess I am overly sensitive...
;-) :hi:
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Alizaryn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #109
118. Nah, not at all (Even though we are all entitled to be after the 20th)
Even my dogs hid from me for the day!
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sepia_steel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #5
134. Amen, merh. nt
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zann725 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #5
141. Agreed. And there is still a chance if this litigation moves forward,
Shrubco may not serve out their term. Kerry won. They committed criminal acts to make it look like they won. That's an impeachable act.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #4
55. Welcome, newcomers!
should be our response, I strongly suspect. A little courtesy never did anyone any harm.
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Amaryllis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #1
35. And for congress in 2006! We can't for get that. Just as important.
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zann725 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #1
140. If RICO charges are leveled against Shrubco, Kerry may NOT be history.
n/t
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meganmonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
2. Good News!
So nice to get an update. We need to be STRONG AND PATIENT and keep up what we're doing - supporting these groups on the front line, contacting our Congresspeople and the media - this will take a while, but it is starting to TAKE, if you know what I mean. We've seen the Ohio GOP freaking out, that means we are getting somewhere.

WooHoo!
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fooj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. I have NEVER stopped believing!
I admit there have been some low times. No one can argue that! However, we are now part of a movement that is becoming stronger and stronger with each passing day and WE WILL TAKE BACK OUR DEMOCRACY! Meganmonkey is right! We have to remain strong and patient! We can't let up...not even for one moment! Ours is a just and noble cause! We must keep fighting and moving forward! Freedom and Liberty does not belong to those who have simply used these ideals to further their corrupt agendas! Lady Liberty cannot stand alone! She needs our help! We can't let Her down! Our democracy depends on it! I see powerful forces of light shining through the darkness. That light is in all of us! The light is coming from the flame of hope and passion within us all. As that light becomes brighter, we will ignite a flame of promise for all of the world to see! Keep the faith. OUR TIME IS NOW! Our day will come...
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greenmutha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. AMEN! NGU! n/t
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Amaryllis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #8
41. REALLY appreciate the optimistic posts! Need to be reminded when it
all starts getting me down.
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fooj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #41
46. No worries...this nightmare can be pretty overwhelming at times!
Keep the faith! NGU!! Our beliefs are strong and our cause is righteous! WE MUST STAND UP!! It helps to lean on each other when times get tough...PEACE!
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
10. How long can they hide the fact that this election was stolen from
John Kerry?

Why would we ever blame the victim of this crime, and thereby aid the enemies who continue to try to destroy him?

This upwelling of positive, grass-roots level energy across the country spells major trouble for those who thought that if they stole it big enough, no one would dare to question it.

We dare. We're not giving up. And that scares them more than anything else. As a result, look for them to make more mistakes.

:thumbsup:
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Four words. Four powerful words.
NGU.


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seito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #13
23. Hmmmmm....
I wonder what those four words could be :)

...and how long can they hide it?

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fooj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #10
110. They fear the power of the people...
That was quite apparent on Jan 20th when he had that ridiculous amount of security...he needed to be protected from his own countrymen and women! How pathetic is that? These monsters didn't think the American people were tenacious enough to courageously stand up and say "ENOUGH". Yet ANOTHER tremendous blunder and miscalculation by Shrub and Co.
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dogindia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
11. kick.
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rdmccur Donating Member (622 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. Kick!
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OKthatsIT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
17. That would be great IF there were any honest Judges left in Ohio
...I have felt Arenbeck's team was incompetent, particularly the case was thrown out for something they should have foreseen. It was lame. And wasted precious time.

Hope this team is legit and competent. I'd like to see more of their proposal before donating money to the cause.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #17
31. It was not thrown out, they asked that it be dismissed as the
Edited on Sat Jan-22-05 03:41 PM by merh
time for what they wanted (an injunction preventing the certification of the electoral college votes) had passed. The opinion of Moyers relative to the expediated consideration was legally questionable. The only difficulty was MOYERS is in the BFEE's pocket and would never have given the proper consideration to the action and the silence of the corporate media whores allowed him to remain biased.

Arnebecks work was not inept or incompetent, it did not waste time, through it he tried to get timely justice, only crooked Moyers prevented justice.

DO NOT BLAME ARNEBECK. Do not blame Kerry. They are not the enemy or the ones to blame and doing so is the waste of energy. Recognize the enemy and the incompetents -- the BFEE and their loyal followers -- if you recognize who is responsible then you can effectively move to defeat the enemies and support the fighters and the leaders.

What are they hiding?
Whay are they attacking Kerry and Arnebeck?
What are they afraid of?

:shrug:



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Democrat Dragon Donating Member (699 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
18. This needs to be treated as a criminal case
complete with detectives and private investigators.

Remember that although the corpse has been buried, the trial has only begun.

Although I cannot fully forgive Kerry for not trying hard enough I think Kerry might at least help smear BushCo. so bad that people aren't going to vote Republican for years.
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rdmccur Donating Member (622 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Well it says
"Over the next several months we hope to have enough solid evidence to pursue criminal prosecutions and prove widespread electoral fraud."
I think the investigation includes historical ties of the Bushes (and other prominent politicians) to the German Nazi party predating WWII.
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IndyPriest Donating Member (685 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
19. VERY good news. Step by step. Inch by inch... n/t
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
21. Focus on the Cover-up!
Although we have a lot of evidence of Election Fraud, most of it is circumstantial and it will be dificult to prove that the "irregularities" were intentional. However, Blackwell, Triad, and many others blatantly broke the law following the election. It will be easy to prove Blackwell's criminal behavior, which will bring the question "what was he trying to hide" to the forefront and give us access to stronger evidence of the fraud itself.

Go after the cover-up!
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emlev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
22. kick
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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
24. Can we recount a few key counties 100% by hand?
Butler, Clermont, Warren and Cuyahoga + the 93,000 undervotes?
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
25. good news
and I like the way they are calling it a "community effort" and will be using volunteers. It's a big job, and they can see that. They seem prepared to do it right.

We should offer our support.
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
27. Make it rain, make it rain, wash the dirt away, let the truth be seen
Make it rain. I love that slogan. I just love it.
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Amaryllis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 03:19 PM
Response to Original message
28. Any idea if this will go before the federal court where the Cobb/Badnarik
Edited on Sat Jan-22-05 03:23 PM by Amaryllis
suit is now? (At least I think it's still there. Anyone know?) Merh, you posted the last update I saw on that. Any more news? Do you know what's hanging it up?

I hope it isn't the OH supreme court they'll have to deal with. Much better chance in the federal court.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #28
48. Litigation is a slow process. You can't force the courts to
act any faster than they act. As far as I know, the case is still pending. There have been instances of federal judges taking 5 years to decide an issues. The wheels of justice grind slowly.

That is why we must never give up the hunt for evidence. A smoking gun or a deep throat needs to be found, something so explosive that the media and the authorities cannot ignore it.

NEVER GIVE UP!

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Amaryllis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #48
65. I will never give up!
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eaglenetsupport Donating Member (150 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
30. "A NEW legal challenge in Ohio!!!" - An Analysis
We need to analyze this until there is nothing left to analyze. Informed decision-making process is the route to salvation here. Observations:

We dont have an open and shut case. The nuts and bolts of this case have yet to be developed. From this perspective, I understand exactly why Kerry threw in the towel when he did, taking great criticism in doing so. The safe harbor provision placed constitutional guides that must be met. There simply wasn'tt enough time in the six weeks allotted to conduct an adequate investigation. The true case that will roll heads will take many months and possibly a year or more to develop.

We have a ton of anecdotal evidence of manipulation of the number booths in democratic precincts compared to republican precincts. Clearly, one party had a great advantage by having the co-chair for Bush also in charge of the states election apparatus. Use of partisan challenges, voter intimidation, and at least five major categories of deliberate caging tactics that can only be viewed as acts in furtherance of conspiracy exist. Significant anecdotal evidence of illegal purges in democratic strongholds exist. I believe we can produce probable cause, but not proof beyond reasonable doubt of election monkey wrenching. The investigation will produce the proof.

Anyone who has been involved with large scale organizing would report one man could not do all this alone. It would take possibly hundreds of workers and probably more than a year to implement. This cannot be accomplished in a vacuum. In other words there absolutely MUST be tons of evidence existing, both direct physical, in the form of documents, orders, expenditures, memos, etc. (the paper trail would have to be enormous) and in witnesses testimony, both conspirators and victims, to the crime.

Heres the rub. The investigation needed to uncover the facts must be high enough level to produce in depth analysis of the facts. This would require an investigative body with the power to subpoena and to compel testimony. This would mean a congressional investigation. Not likely when both houses are controlled by the same criminal organization that committed the crime. Therefore there is only one, little known, little used, option. The Special Prosecutor is the single possibility to conduct the investigation necessary.

The ability to appoint a special prosecutor has been severely diminished after the exploits of that office for partisan politics during the Clinton administration. But that didn'tt dump the Special Prosecutors Office. The Special Prosecutors Office is a judicial function. These are prosecutors that are independent of the other two bodies. So the case must be bifurcated into two parts. The first part must be greater than anecdotal. It would not necessarily contain proof beyond the mere shadow of a doubt, but must be at least significant enough to raise probable cause a significant crime has been committed and the demonstration to the court that no lesser level of investigation would produce justice.

Important in any case is what the victims wish to receive in compensation. We should state this clearly that this is what we want is a full and thorough investigation so as to never let this happen again. Any reasonable Federal Ct. would go with this request I believe, due to the fact that this is the most reasonable, rational out come of such an important case, that is to not let it happen again. This is the only way I can see to proceed to the second and most important stage, a real and viable investigation. Anything less and these questions will remain unanswered forever and well go to our graves with only our suspicions.

Show me another route to accomplish a thorough investigation and I'll look at it.
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Amaryllis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. Thank you. Do you think when Kerry came out with the statement
"Not enought evidence to change the outcome" in the letter he sent a few days before Jan. 6, he meant "not enough admissable in court as evidence" ? People seem often not to make this distinction. If after assessing the situation he came to this conclusion, then conceding was really the only option, right? Even as more and more "evidence" was uncovered and many were pushing him to unconcede, if there still was not enough evidence that would stand up in court that could be put together in time, unconceding would not have been an option.

Arnebeck seemed to think he had enough hard evidence that was sufficient to change the outcome. Thoughts? It seemed like Kerry and Arnebeck were working at odds with each other at times.
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KaliTracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #33
53. the problem is that there still wouldn't be a way to quickly make the case
as above posts stated, it's going to take a long time. In a way, I kind of think that the first lawsuit representing the voters was merely to get the issue out into the public eye and in the courts, not that they didn't believe it in, but that they knew there probably wasn't a chance to get their day in court. Because of Blackwell's stonewalling there was no possible way to adequately try the case, even if we had a judge who was interested in an election that was False.

I feel that Kerry had no choice but to concede -- and I'm not sure what that means now. Given that Blackwell did everything in his power to minimize the recount -- I truly don't think it would have been different if Kerry led the call for one, and I think, he knew he was up against partisans who wouldn't play fair. Unless Kerry's legal team could have demanded a full-hand count recount of Ohio, it wouldn't have mattered one bit if Kerry hadn't conceded when he did. Right now, as Ohio stands -- there is still the illusion that * won the state. I tend to disagree with this.

Someone posted yesterday that many counties (including the area I live in) will be doing elections in the Spring -- I see signs up for the School Levy that failed, so I know that this issue will be on the ballot. The machines will all be purged unless somehow there can be an injunction to hold them for investigation. I fully expect the courts to not grant this -- so any investigation will have to be comepleted either with this information gathered with in 8 days after the meeting on the 30th, or not at all. Which means other investigations will need to be able to go above the machine evidence.
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anamandujano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #53
63. "The machines will all be purged"
This is going on now. What hope of getting any evidence. A timely response from Kerry might have helped.

I'm trying not to post with the delusionals here that still think Kerry is the goods. He once had the second loudest voice in the country, now he is in the minority party and won't even be able to get a bill to the floor. They don't fear him. And to those who thought his self imposed silence would keep him safe from slander, I guess you were wrong.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #63
70. .
:boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring:
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Laurab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #70
82. Let me add
pzzzzzzzzzzzcheeeeeeeeeeezzzz.

I should give credit to will pitt - I learned that reading one of his posts....I liked it.
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anamandujano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #70
92. We already know that you're fast asleep,
so you don't have to post your Zzzz's anymore. I worry about what will happen to your psyche when/if you wake up. You are in denial. Keep holding on because the depression that follows is not much fun.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #92
99. pzzzzzzzzzzzcheeeeeeeeeeezzzz.
:freak:
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Laurab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #99
132. Lol
thank YOU, merh - I didn't want to have to do it again. De Nile is a river in Egypt (I think?). I don't think that's where I am, I think I'm being realistic, with a little bit of educated guessing in there.

I don't, and never will, understand the negative posts about Kerry. Anyone who has studied his background should REALLY give him the benefit of the doubt. If they can't give him the benefit of the doubt, I'm wondering why they feel the need to bash him over and over (and over and over....). What does it really accomplish?
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #30
36. The U.S. Marshals.
They have broad powers to accomplish an actual investigation.

-Hoot
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eaglenetsupport Donating Member (150 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #36
42. "The U.S. Marshals."
All you'd have to do is get the Attorney General to open an investigation. I wouldn't hold my breath. Even a maverick in the US Marshal Office would still have to produce probable cause to the court and ask the judge to appoint a special prosecutor. I believe only the court can appoint a special prosecutor, but not sure if anyone else could, I'll check it.
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #42
50. I've had trouble finding the Oath of Office for Marshals...
Admittedly, they are paid by the DOJ, but, I don't think it should take the AG for them to investigate violations of Federal law. From thier website:

A Broad Range of Authority

The offices of U.S. Marshals and Deputy Marshal were created by the first Congress in the Judiciary Act of 1789, the same legislation that established the Federal judicial system. The Marshals were given extensive authority to support the federal courts within their judicial districts and to carry out all lawful orders issued by judges, Congress, or the president.
...
Thus, the Marshals also provided local representation for the Federal government within their districts. They took took the national census every 10 years through 1870. They distributed presidential proclamations, collected a variety of statistical information on commerce and manufacturing. supplied the names of government employees for the national register, and preformed other routine tasks needed for the central government to function effectively.

Over the past 200 years, Congress and the president also called on the Marshals to carry out unusual or extraordinary
missions. such as registering enemy aliens in time of war, capturing fugitive slaves. sealing the American border against armed expeditions aimed at foreign countries, and swapping spies with the Soviet Union.


In looking at this in Nov. I ran across rumors that the marshals oath changed in the late 80's removing the phrase Serve Protect and Defend the Constitution from it. I have been unable to substantiate this, as I've been unable to find the oath in any form in my feeble attempts.

-Hoot
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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #30
71. Welcome to DU Counselor! n/t
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davidgmills Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 03:56 PM
Response to Original message
40. RE-exit poll Ohio now
This is the back up proof these lawyers will need to convince a court that there has been widespread fraud and to allow discovery to proceed without court objecton and obstruction.

We need this proof.

This is 27 years of legal experience talking.

Make these lawyer's jobs easier, please.
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eaglenetsupport Donating Member (150 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. "RE-exit poll Ohio now"
I'd introduce good exit poll info, but it would still be anecdotal. We'll need more than exit polls.
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Beth in VT Donating Member (224 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #40
51. how could this be done anonymously? n/t
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eaglenetsupport Donating Member (150 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #51
61. "how could this be done anonymously? n/t"
Please expand. What do you mean by done anonymously?
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Beth in VT Donating Member (224 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #61
68. Isn't it important
for people to be able to answer anonymously to encourage participation and candid responses? I thought this was a standard technique for polls and surveys.
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. I have NEVER understood why MoveOn didn't mobilize the troops.
There were volunteers organized at the precinct level in 10,000 precincts across the U.S. to GOTV. We went door to door to interview "infrequent Dem voters" and interviewed people to find out whether they planned on voting and for whom. This would be indicative of how the voting should have gone--percentage of Dem turnout for Kerry in each precinct. MoveOn had tables set up outside of precincts to allow people to check in and indicate that they voted and how. What happened to that information? And, why isn't MoveOn is not using the volunteers to canvass now?
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davidgmills Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #69
121. MoveOn has taken a pass on election fraud
I am very disappointed. I asked them almost two months ago to support a re-exit poll. Heard nothing since. Not even a serious acknowledgement of my request.

I was nominated by MoveOn to be the local coordinator, prior to the war, to meet with Harold Ford, Jr., our Congressman.

But since their anti-war stance, I've not seen much progressive action out of them.

Maybe they got too much money from the likes of Soros and have begun to lose their way. I don't know.
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
49. One of the better threads
I've read in two days. Thanks
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Beth in VT Donating Member (224 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #49
52. I agree - a sign of life! n/t
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #49
105. You're very welcome.
The folks on the listserv wanted DU to know.

NGU.


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torque Donating Member (167 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 05:20 PM
Response to Original message
56. kick
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KaliTracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
58. anyone here planning on going to the meeting on the 30th? I'm thinking
about it, but I could only be a "weekend warrior" so I'm not sure there would be things that I could do.
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Stevepol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
59. All the evidence about DREs in general shd be used. Everything.
Sooner or later this has to be done. Diebold, ES&S, Sequoia and the other clones like Triad have to be put on the stand to face the music. There's too much evidence of their wrongdoing. Diebold has used uncertified software everywhere they've been used. ES&S is linked w/ Diebold thru ownership and management and shared software. This can be shown thru documentary evidence. The many places where the machines mis-counted or can be logically inferred to have mis-counted (as in GA 02) can be entered as evidence of the need, the necessity, for recounts and audits. Because the results have not been audited and recounted and in some cases can't be recounted and where even the source codes are off limits, this is the only recourse that the citizen has. The lawyers have to realize this. This is a systematic effort to pervert the democratic process that has been provably going on since 2002. It started before that of course. It needs to be tried in a federal court that will allow for evidence from other states as to the intent and methods of these companies, etc.

DEMAND A VOTER-VERIFED PAPER BALLOT AND AUDITS FOR ALL ELECTIONS
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BigBearJohn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 06:43 PM
Response to Original message
72. I had a personal realization about JFKerry today. I will not abandon him.
John Kerry has been in government for over 20 years.
He knows what is REALLY happening behind the scenes.
I'm sure he knew what could and could not be done about the election.
As a prosecutor he knew firsthand how the system works.
I am not going to second guess him.
I will, however, watch what he does in the next two years.

I can't see Hillary winning in 2008
I can't see John Edwards winning in 2008
I can't see Obama winning in 2008
I can't see Dean winning in 2008

After 4 more years of * disasters, Kerry can come back
and say, "Just as I predicted. Now move over and let me get
something done!"
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Laurab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #72
83. I agree with most of what you said
I can't see any of the four (Hillary, JE, Obama or Dean (mainly if he's DNC chair, as I think he will be), winning. I can't say who would, but I wouldn't count Kerry out. All I know is I'll be watching every single one of them, because the time to fight is now. Really it was before now, but now will have to do. I really do expect big things from Kerry - I don't think he'll let me down. He hasn't yet.
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Zan_of_Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #83
90. Jesus Christ with Mother Teresa as VP can't win in 2008. Not with ...
these fake voting machines in place.

Engaging in speculation about who should run in 2008 should only be done for entertainment purposes, like figuring out what you will do with the money you will win in the lottery.

If you want to do something, work to get the fraud exposed, and P A P E R B A L L O T S in place.
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anamandujano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #90
91. Correct!
They have forgotten that KERRY DID WIN, but did not step up to the plate to redeem the prize. If that didn't let them down or feel abandoned, nothing will.

Someone up thread has suggested that in 2008 he can say "just as I predicted". He could have said that during this campaign, maybe he did. If so, it didn't get us anywhere. What further disasters does anyone need to vote Bush out. We voted him out.

I'm not suggesting that you are on board with me in forgetting about Kerry as leader or savior, just supporting your point that the machines are in charge until they aren't. The repukes would love us to start fixing what we did wrong in this election and work on the next one. What a waste of time and energy.
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deacon2 Donating Member (396 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #90
93. Dead on Zan_of_Texas
Love the folks on your ticket, but as you point out, they wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell under the current election "set up." Even Jesus and Mother Theresa wouldn't be enough to quell the bloodthirst going on in GOP Land. I can only imagine the trash talk over at Free Republic:

A wimpy hippy and a freakin' nun! "Blessed are the poor..." my ass, Junior. Get yourself a haircut and a job!

toostoopidtospell

America's Elections - Fix It or Forget It
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Laurab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #90
101. Well, that too, then again I think my dog could have won
against * this year if those machines hadn't been in place. Actually I've said exactly what you said in most of my posts about '08, but it was getting kind of redundant. That's what I'm going to be watching (hounding might be a better word), all the potential candidates for - they've got some work ahead of them.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #90
117. Well, even if the voting machine's were removed and auditable,
paper ballots were used, that ticket wouldn't work, it's too Catholic. Fundies only use Catholics. Fundies have a problem with our sacrament of confession and our saints.
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mousie Donating Member (398 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #72
84. well said...
and I hope all the Kerry supporters-turned-bashers see your post and think hard about it! (Maybe you should make a separate post of this!) :)
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Oversea Visitor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #84
108. Hey they did good too
Some spanking don't hurt. :spank: All Kerry Bashers want is some action.
Once Kerry start taking some action they turn to :loveya:

Who know maybe all those Bashers did make a different to Kerry to come out and really fight.

Objectively the only reason they bash Kerry is they feel let down by his silence and inaction. Don't see anything wrong in the way they feel.

But anyone trying to make them look like anti Kerry. Now that I cant agreed with.

Don't see why some trying to make a big deal out of it. End result is it can only divide support for the cause and not unite.
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mousie Donating Member (398 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #108
131. you've got a point there
and I hope that's all it is...people speaking out or trying to generate some action that they wanted to see happening. But still some people have taken the bashing too far. I think we just have to believe (and I do) that Kerry surely would have taken more action if he knew it could change things.
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #72
87. I hope that
it will not even take four years. As long as we get behind every move our guys and girls make, Kerry, Boxer and Conyers .In the coming months. Like the DU did since nov 3rd and especially on the 4th and 5th of Jan.
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Pam-Moby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 09:18 PM
Response to Original message
94. Could a petition
be started that all of us sign that could be part of any lawsuit that is presented to the courts? That could make any lawsuit stronger because more voices are stating that they are not agreeing with what has taken place and that we want justice for all of the suppression and civil rights violations that have taken place!!!
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eaglenetsupport Donating Member (150 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #94
107. "Could a petition"
To enter a case a litigant must have standing. Standing means a direct personal loss within the jurisdiction of the particular court. Petitions are a political apparatus that expresses a political opinion on a matter. The court would not allow a petition to be entered nor except a petition as evidence of a litigants standing in a case.
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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #107
127. But in a FEDERAL election, we ALL have "standing" in this case.
If it was just a state issue, no. But it is not. It is Federal.

At least, that's my argument!!

:kick: :kick: :kick:
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texpatriot2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
125. Thanks ClassWarrior for this info. Can people in other states
volunteer? I will call them during the week and find out. I wonder what the next phase of legal activity will look like?
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #125
129. You know what I know, tex. Give 'em a try and let us know.
I'm sure there are lots of others here who could help too. And God bless you for wanting to...

NGU.


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ClintCooper2003 Donating Member (629 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
130. Brilliant. I hope people end up behind bars for this.
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KaliTracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 12:40 AM
Response to Original message
142. where is the link to this? I'd like to find more information about who
can participate in the meeting on the 30th.

Thanks!
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dbDESIGN Donating Member (47 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
143. Did thsi meeting happen? Is follow up on a another thread? eom
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