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Kerry Criticized election Outcome at MLK breakfast!!

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meganmonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 12:43 PM
Original message
Kerry Criticized election Outcome at MLK breakfast!!
BOSTON U.S. Sen. John Kerry, in some of his most pointed public comments yet about November's presidential election, invoked Martin Luther King Jr.'s legacy on Monday as he criticized President Bush and decried reports of voter disenfranchisement on election day.

Kerry, Bush's Democratic challenger, spoke at Boston's annual Martin Luther King Day Breakfast. He reiterated that he decided not to challenge the election results, but went on to say that "thousands of people were suppressed in the effort to vote."

"Voting machines were distributed in uneven ways. In Democratic districts, it took people four, five, eleven hours to vote, while Republicans sorted through in ten minutes - same voting machines, same process, our America," he said.

In his comments, Kerry also compared the democracy-building efforts in Iraq with voting in the U.S., saying that Americans had their names purged from voting lists and were kept from casting ballots.

SNIP

http://www.telegram.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/2005...

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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
1. Wow.
That's sure to bring about some changes.

Yipee for us.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. What do you expect him to do?
Please, share with us what you would have done?

I am glad to see he is staying on point and will not give up on this.
"We're here to celebrate the life of a man who if he were here today would make it clear to us what our agenda is, and nothing would be made more clear on that agenda that in a nation which is willing to spend several hundred million dollars in Iraq to bring them democracy, we cannot tolerate that too many people here in America were denied that democracy," Kerry said.
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count_alucard Donating Member (105 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-20-05 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #4
181. for starters, BE A MAN
and REPORT FOR FUCKING DUTY.

He caved in less than 12 hours. Evidence of fraud was everywhere. He's a sad joke.

I don't deserve Bush for President. Kerry does.
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The Zanti Regent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
2. Too little and too late
Especially for my dead son, my only child.

The anger I have at Kerry will NEVER go away!
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rabid_nerd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. Too little and too late
just backing you up, Zanti...
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lady lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #8
29. Too little and too late
and way too much covering his ass.
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Citizen Kang Donating Member (424 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #29
97. Too little, too late
nm
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. Your anger should be directed to the weed.
It's his evil war.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #9
34. No it is not Bush's war
We live in a war-generating system within which an invasion of the Middle East has been planned and prepared for 30 years. It was certain to be an administration mobbed up with old CIA and "Enterprise" connections a la Bush to execute the invasion, but none of it would be possible without the overall system. Essential elements include a media that will never question the move to war in advance of the commitment, and an opposition that plays along. Don't give me bull about how Kerry didn't see the wars coming long in advance, and know the real reasons. If I did, if many others on this board did, then he certainly did. He knows how the game is played. He didn't move to stop the invasion when he could have, he voted for the war resolution, he has done nothing to expose the present administration as the gangster-led fascism that it is. Like his predecessor in the spot of leading the loyal opposition, he didn't make the moves to win and he did nothing to challenge the election fraud while it was happening. The name for that is complicity. Does it let off Bush? Certainly not. It's time to drop your illusions. How would the last 30 years of lies wars and above all plunder been possible without Democratic complicity at the top?
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #34
39. Excuse me, but what could one senator do to stop the war?
Just as you couldn't, he couldn't. HE DID NOT VOTE FOR THE WAR, as no resolution has ever been passed allowing for a war.

THE USE OF MILITARY FORCE, if all other means as elaborated in the Resolution failed, was authorized and he voted for that. But the weed did not comply with the resolution and the weed and his admin are to fault.

You should research the facts before spouting garbage opinions.

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mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #39
44. exactly. thank you for posting that
some of these posters sound like they would be more comfortable on FR
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #39
92. What could one senator do?
What makes Kerry's position more precious than mine? Why should he be less willing to take risks than I? If I was vocal, he could have been vocal. If I knew there were no WMDs and why, he did too. If I could dismantle the lies of the administration on Feb. 6, 2003 using nothing more than logic and open-source research, so could he.

Get real. The resolution was obviously to authorize what Bush clearly said he would do. We don't have declarations of war any more because Congress abdicated its responsibility about 30 years ago. Now some vague resolution is presented to them, when everyone knows the plan is to invade no matter what, and they are allowed to vote on it, knowing later they can cover their asses with this kind of prevaricating, faux-naive talk. "Aw, golly, I didn't authorize that! I authorized a set of options..." blah blah. And of course it was impossible that the invasion would go well, but if it had, no one would be bringing up this bullshit in Kerry's defense.

You're pathetic for producing no better response than crying "garbage." This is no-content and indicative of what you've actually got backing you. You want your illusions about Kerry, fine. You'll be finding justifcations for why one who knew what was up didn't do anything to stop it, all the way to hell.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #92
123. Go back and read the statement he made before casting his
vote. You will see that it was not a blanket "we back our prez" vote and he was taking a very loud position on what he expected the weed to do before military force was used.

The only thing pathetic is your misconstruing the FACTS to bash a man who has not only voted his conscience, but has taken flak for his votes. Like his vote against the 87 million for the troops, then his vote for it. He was vocal and stood up to the weed to say that there was no provision in the legislation for the funding of the 87 million, he wanted the legislation to provide a source of funding, yet he realized that the troops were committed and had to have funding to survive.

I am not living with illusions, nor am I justifying the war. I stating the FACTS. You on the other hand are blaming the wrong man for the war.
My posts are legitimate and factual, yours are emotionally and full of distortions. Go back and read the resolution and Sen. Kerry's remarks. Go back and read the FACTS.
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pbartch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #39
93. I agree with you ONE senator could NOT have stopped us from invading Iraq
Everyone knows that.
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #39
122. You know what, merh?
AFAIC, that's a "distinction without a difference." It's also, AFAIC, the kind of word parsing and legalism that is a turnoff at best and dishonest at worst.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #122
129. Do you care to explain? n/t
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GettysbergII Donating Member (664 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #34
114. Kerry's position on Iraq sounds like it was written by Foreign Affairs
http://zmagsite.zmag.org/Mar2003/shoup0303.html

The CFRs Drive for a War on Iraq

The Next Stop Baghdad? article by Kenneth M. Pollack appeared in the March/April 2002 issue of Foreign Affairs. As mentioned above, Pollack was at the time the Councils Olin Senior Fellow and Director of National Security Studies, directing a CFR Roundtable on Terrorism and Americas response. An expert on Iraq, Iran, and the Persian Gulf, Pollack is a Yale and MIT graduate who has worked for the CIA, the National Security Council under Bill Clinton and George W. Bush, and has also been a research professor at the National Defense University. An expanded version of the Next Stop Baghdad? article was published in October 2002 by Random House as a Council on Foreign Relations book entitled The Threatening Storm. A review of the book in the November/December issue of Foreign Affairs called it ...exceptionally thoughtful. If any book can shape the current thinking on Iraq, this one will assuredly be it. Pollacks blunt conclusion in both the article and book is, The United States should invade Iraq, eliminate the present regime, and pave the way for a successor...

Pollack admits that Iraq has little to do with terrorism or al Qaeda and goes on to argue that the containment and deterrence policy, which was mutually successful for 45 years during the conflict between the U.S.-led NATO powers and Soviet Russia, will not work in the case of Iraq because of the nature of Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein. Pollacks argument against containment and deterrence is thus based on the assumption of Saddam Husseins supposed pathologies, and the belief that he cannot be deterred, a problem that becomes more serious if he gets nuclear weapons. Therefore, due to the threat that Saddam might destabilize oil supplies from the Middle East, he has to be overthrown and a friendly government installed. This is where the argument about weapons of mass destruction comes in and why Iraq is seen as different than North Korea, in the view of ruling circles. Saddam can impact the western world through impacting the worlds access to oil, North Korea cannot.

Pollack concludes that other nations, regional and European powers, might join the U.S. attack in order to ...retain political and economic influence in Iraq later on. He sees a possible major problem once Hussein has been driven from power: ...the United States would be left owning a country of 22 million people ravaged by more than two decades of war, totalitarian misrule, and severe deprivation. The invaders would get to decide the composition and form of a future Iraqi governmentboth an opportunity and a burden. Some form of unitary but federalized state would probably best suit the bewildering array of local and foreign interest involved, but ideally this decision would be a collective one: as in Afghanistan, the United States should try to turn the question of future Iraqi political arrangements over to the U.N., or possibly the Arab League, thus shedding and spreading some responsibility for the outcome.... In the end, of course, it would be up to the United States to make sure that a post-Saddam Iraq did not slip into chaos like Lebanon in the 1980s or Afghanistan in the 1990s, creating spillover effects in the region and raising the possibility of a new terrorist haven.

Finally, Pollack asks and answers the question of when to attack Iraq. He argues on the one hand that it would be an error to launch an attack before al Qaeda is made innocuous, adding that: ...it would be a mistake to jeopardize success by risking a major break with U.S. alliessomething that a serious campaign against Iraq might well make necessary.

On the other hand, too long a delay in going to war could make it very hard to muster necessary domestic and international support.


Dean was the only Democratic candidate that dared to go against the CFR's position. And of cource the DNC sabotaged him for it.

http://shadowbox.i8.com/patriot.htm

Boxer, Conyers and the 30 other congressmen that challeneged the Electoral Vote on 1-6-05 are the only Dems I'll support from now on and only as long as they continue to show some spine.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-20-05 04:32 AM
Response to Reply #114
178. Dean the only candidate?
Pulleaze Louise! Kucinich organized what congressional opposition there was to the war, and Sharpton and Mosely-Braun took formal positions against it.

(The good Dr. has already apologized publicly for claiming to be the only opponent to the war, and everyone else should fall in line here.)
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robicat Donating Member (15 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 07:35 AM
Response to Reply #34
173. Agreed
I think people need to read a history of a Guatamala and countless other places to realise the carnage this nation has wrought on peoples lives and communities through their proxies and covert thuggery. The america that many of you have ignored now is at your own doorstep. And it isn't a pretty sight.

The shock (and denial) many people feel at Democrat complictity in this rising facism is a sign (in my opinion) about the naivity that liberal people in your country have about your nation and government. Why is the history of US foreign policy in Central America a secret history? Answer that question and you will also realise why this election stealing is going to be consigned to the dustbin of history.

It is just too painful for your citizens to face. it doesn't fit with your mythology of manifest destiny. Kerry is complicit. Your party is complicit. Most of us in the western world are complicit in some way. Betcha Kerry more than most. Always has been always will be. Clinton bombed that baby food factory in the Sudan i recall. 500,000 Iraqis died under sanctions that were held in place by the Democrats in power. So lets not pretend that this party somehow lost it's cherry when JK conceded.


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zalinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #2
13. I understand your anger
and I'm sorry for your loss, but you have to understand that Presidential candidates are isolated from reality, by their handlers. Kerry was told by the "experts" what he should do, and he conceded. I, too, wanted him to rage against the injustice of a stolen election, but I understand why he didn't. It wouldn't have focused the attention where it was supposed to be.

I know if I lost my only son, I would be filled with hatred too, but not at Kerry, but at Bush, where the hatred belongs. We tend to forget how nuanced politics is, and how for hundreds of years this dance for power has been going on. We may never understand how it works, but pray that those who represent us, do know, and have our best interests at heart.

I can only hope that you have precious memories to soothe your sorrow, and that one day you will find the sun shining for you again.

zalinda
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googly Donating Member (801 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #13
167. The reality is that 95% of the parents of the soldiers killed in Iraq
Edited on Tue Jan-18-05 01:33 AM by googly
support what their kids wanted to do in Iraq, and implicitly
the commander in chief who sent them there. And that is
simply amazing to me, cuz I would defeinitely be in the other
5% category.
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PartyMy6 Donating Member (7 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #2
23. More like..
WAY too little, WAY too late!!!!
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pacalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #2
64. Sorry to hear, Zanti.
Are you sure you're angry at the right person? If it had been my son, I know where my anger would be aimed.



Not even Billy Graham could win an election against WhatsHisFace's ("We're gonna win - you can write that down") vote-stealing machine.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #2
73. I'm sorry for your loss
Edited on Mon Jan-17-05 03:30 PM by LittleClarkie
Why the anger though: because he didn't win the election, or because he voted for the war?

If it's because he voted for the war, are you equally as angry at all the Senators who voted that way?

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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #2
86. I'm very sorry for your loss
Your son and all the other soldiers who have died or who are still fighting are one of the most important reasons that none of us can give up or stop trying to get the word out about all that's going on!

And...while I'm glad that Kerry finally spoke out...I agree that it is rather late. I am disappointed in him, but have to say that I keep wondering what's going on behind the scenes that we don't know about. Perhaps an orchestrated attack on * that will show the entire country exactly what's what.

It's my fervent hope-my fingers are crossed on a daily basis-that while we don't know when, we don't know how-that justice will prevail in the end.
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
3. Dig this quote!!
"We're here to celebrate the life of a man who if he were here today would make it clear to us what our agenda is, and nothing would be made more clear on that agenda that in a nation which is willing to spend several hundred million dollars in Iraq to bring them democracy, we cannot tolerate that too many people here in America were denied that democracy," Kerry said.

Wish we had a transcript of the entire statement.

"Bush Owns It: Let's Purge It -- NOW"
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whometense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. A little video
here: http://www.boston.com/news/necn /

Kerry Lashes Out At Bush At MLK Breakfast
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zann725 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. I can't get it to 'play.' Arghh!
n/t
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whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #10
28. That video link was taking forever to load, after 6 mins I stopped
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LibDemAlways Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #3
87. Does Kerry actually believe that we're spending our
national treasure in Iraq to "bring them democracy"? If he believes that, he sure as hell doesn't know much about the BFEE.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #87
98. No he doesn't believe that
He was just talking about the stated goal of the BFEE and how it compares with what we don't even have in our own country, as in "How do they think they're going to bring democracy to another country when they don't even know what it is at home."

I do believe that Bush Co. thought they could just create a democratic Middle East and fulfill the neocon goal of protecting Israel in that way. Deluded little fuckers, ain't they.
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Pam-Moby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
5. I think the sleeping giant has just awoken....
its to bad that its a day late and a dollar short.
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RubyDuby in GA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. No, he's not a dollar short
He still has millions of our dollars.
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Al-CIAda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
6. Wow
""Voting machines were distributed in uneven ways. In Democratic districts, it took people four, five, eleven hours to vote, while Republicans sorted through in ten minutes - same voting machines, same process, our America," he said."


Thats the way to be - 2 months behind on the issue...btw, where was your 'crack' team in the months BEFORE and during allocation and distribution of said machines?

Welcome back, hope you had a nice trip!


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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
11. Wow
I can't believe the negativity on this thread.

Here is a politician (Kerry) finally speaking some truth and some of us are acting like it's all false. Wow.
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meganmonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. I know, I guess I forgot to add the comment to my original post
'Here come the Kerry Bashers 3-2-1-GO!!!!
And off they went.

:eyes:

Gee, sorry everyone that Kerry is publicly talking about this, the media is covering his speech, I guess we should all be really really pissed now. THat makes so much sense.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #14
72. I thought they didn't come out until sundown
Who put out the lights?
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meganmonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #72
94. I know - I have to sign off for a while soon
for a meeting - I am afraid it will be even worse when I get home and check this thread.
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Pooka Fey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #14
101. Can we tolerate some diversity of opinion here???
As far as "Kerry-Basher" labels and "You must be a Freeper" comments; all I can say is The Right-Wing Neocons have truly trained many Americans to crush all dissent and ridicule the speaker, rather than addressing/debating the content of the message. Blind unreasoned faith is the hallmark of religious fanatics and totalitarians. Can we resist this re-programming/brainwashing here at DU??

Anyone who believes that Kerry could have done a better job at contesting the election has a right to say it WITHOUT BEING CALLED NAMES. Those who are pointing out that, on the eve of the inauguration, it's too late to rectify the abomination of the 2004 election are CORRECT. If Kerry had made these points back in November, MAYBE he would be having his inauguration on Thursday, rather than **. We will never know, because he chose to wait for 2 1/2 months. Some of us have a problem with HIS TIMING, not the fact that he is finally speaking out against violations of the Voting Rights Act. His TIMING! If you would like to defend Kerry's timing, by all means - go ahead.

What ever happened to "I may not agree with what my enemy says, but I will fight to the death to protect his right to say it."
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BlackVelvet04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #101
109. Thank you
I'm getting a little tired of having the repukes tactics used here by the liberals. If there is no dissenting opinion allowed we might as well go to a conservative forum and be called bush bashers.

Those who defend Kerry no matter what are no different, IMO, than those who defend bush no matter what. Blind loyalty is not something I've ever been good at. The fact of the matter is Kerry said he had our back, he said he was reporting for duty and yet he cut and ran. Maybe election fraud could not be pr oven as far as the black box voting "irregularities" are concerned but disenfranchisement damn sure could be proved. The disenfranchisement ALONE was enough to challenge this election. Why should minorities continue to support a party that doesn't think they are worth fighting for? Why spend money to appeal to minorities if you aren't going to make sure they are allowed to vote?

I daresay that if more of the members of DU were subjected to disenfranchisement they would be pretty pissed at Kerry for not fighting for their right to vote both before and immediately after the election.

As for what I expected Kerry to do I will say this. He should have had more people observing for disenfranchisement. After the election he could have taken a couple of days to hear reports from voters around the country who stood in line for hours and before he conceded he could have made it a major issue....one that couldn't be swept under the rug the way the MSM has done. Had Kerry spoken out BEFORE he conceded the press would HAVE HAD to cover it because they were waiting for the concession.

I don't hate Kerry. He did things the way he did for his own reasons and I'm not privy to those reasons, but I strongly disagree with his lack of action and if that's not acceptable at D.U. all I can say is I think it's sad that those of us who do disagree, but at the same time have financially supported D.U. and any number of causes, are being treated exactly the same way I was treated at other forums that were predominately conservative.

We ALL make mistakes and Kerry is no exception.
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Pooka Fey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #109
110. Excellent Excellent Observation!!!
"I daresay that if more of the members of DU were subjected to disenfranchisement they would be pretty pissed at Kerry for not fighting for their right to vote both before and immediately after the election."
You hit the nail on the head. We should NEVER underestimate how much our perspectives are influenced by our race in the U.S.A. If only more of us DUers had the personal experience of "Voting while Black" we would be hearing a different tune about how Kerry handled his concession. Thanks.
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meganmonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #101
115. I can tolerate it just fine - I wouldn't spend time here if we all agreed
It would be boring as hell. I don't think my using the term 'Kerry-basher' was inappropriate. There are many people who frequent this forum who generally react negatively to anything posted about Kerry. I NEVER called anyone a freeper, or implied such a thing. I was making a somewhat lighthearted remark about phenomena that was predictable.

As you can see in my comments elsewhere on this thread, I have no final verdict on Kerry, personally. I refrain from that debate.

I posted this article because I thought it was great that this issue is getting some attention from the corporate media. I thought it was great that a Senator chose this topic for his speech on MLK Day. I thought the subject of this thread would be more oriented around press coverage than it would about 'Is Kerry a chump? vs. Does Kerry have a secret plan to save us all?' . Which is a common argument around here that I generally refrain from particiupating in, and, IMHO, takes away from the point of this forum which is to research and expose fraud. And I am disappointed that this thread has become about that.

If you are irritated at the folks who call 'freeper' and get into big fights about whether or not Kerry sucks, take it out on them, not me.

Thanks.
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Pooka Fey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #115
118. Here's the kind of attention Kerry has brought to this issue
"Calculated deployment of personal principal is no principal at all: Kerry speaks of election reform 75 days late." ..."Too late, Senator....Too late to borrow selectively the principles of your betters when the timing of a display of courage is every bit as critical as its content."

http://nashuaadvocate.blogspot.com /

I believe this has everything to do with researching and exposing election fraud. Kerry knew about the disenfranchisement, but he sat on his hands. Now he trots out all kinds of feel-good messages on MLK day, well after it's too late to contest the election results. He looks like a conniving political opportunist feeding off the legacy of a true American patriot and social progressive, the Rev. Dr. King. IMHO, this is the opposite of helping our cause. He has sullied it with today's display, and that reflects poorly on the democratic party and those working in Congress for enforcement of our current election laws.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #118
120. Or he has picked an appropriate moment to speak on it
at a time and place where he wouldn't get in the way of what the congressmen were trying to accomplish on Jan 6th.

I could see the criticism if this is ALL he does. But Congress 109 has barely started. I'm not looking for insta-reform.
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meganmonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #118
138. Now who can't tolerate diversity?
I have made it clear that I am not defending Kerry. I am not even disagreeing with you, for God's sake.

I am not going to argue about Kerry with you. I am not going to defend him OR lambaste him.

That is not why I posted this article.

I read the Nashua blog. It was an interesting perspective.

AGAIN, MY POINT:

If any other Senator made this speech today and it got published on dozens of news websites, most people in this forum would be very pleased.
To me, that is what happened. A Senator made a speech about the election problems and it is all over the internet. That is a good thing.

That is all I am saying.
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Pooka Fey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #138
141. Disagreement with an idea does not equal intolerence of another's right to
speak it. I haven't called you anything for stating your opinions, I have focused on the topic.

I disagree that it was a good thing for Kerry to bring up this issue on MLK day. I think he looks like a political opportunist for doing it today. Other people don't see it that way, fine. IMHO, He would have been a hero and a patriot and worthy of Dr. King had he done it before he conceded the election, or maybe even as late as the Jan. 6th certification if he had voted with Senator Boxer.

I don't believe that ANY press is better than no press. Since Kerry is the subject of the article it is impossible to discuss what he did without discussing him.
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meganmonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #141
143. Why didn''t you just say that in the first place
instead of implying I was intolerant and called someone a freeper?
You replied to my post with remarks like this: "As far as "Kerry-Basher" labels and "You must be a Freeper" comments..." and "has a right to say it WITHOUT BEING CALLED NAMES". That was a little unnerving since I have done none of the above.

Regardless, your response above is perfectly reasonable, and I respectfully disagree that he looked like a political opportunist. I would say he looked like a Senator focusing on an issue that is important to me.

Thanks you for stating your opinion plainly - you sounded kinda pissed in all your other responses, I hope I was just reading you wrong. :shrug:

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Pooka Fey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #143
150. I was responding to posts 14, 72 and 94, all at once, and next time
I'll make sure I put that down to avoid any confusion. When I wrote - "Can we tolerate some diversity of opinion here?" that was addressed to the assembly more than you as one writer. That statement in no way implied you were an intolerant person.

However when you wrote to me "now who can't tolerate diversity?" in the headline of post 138, anyone cruising down the headlines could easily think I had posted something racially intolerant (and on MLK day!!), rather than expressed a difference of opinion.

Although you didn't directly call any individual a Kerry basher - You did write "Kerry-bashers will be arriving in 3, 2, 1" in post 14; and you also wrote that you weren't sorry about using the term "Kerry-basher" (in post 115), because you though it was appropriate. So your statement in the above post that you brought neither term into the discourse (neither Freeper nor Kerry Basher) is untrue (NO you didn't say Freeper) You've been posting emotionally volatile statements and then you ask why you received an emotional reaction. I wanted to explain how that came about.
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meganmonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #150
152. Fair enough -
Especially spot on about the Kerry basher comment (although I thought I explained it - and I got a response that called Kerry a p*ssy which was deleted, anyone who says that wouldn't deny being a Kerry basher ;) ). I came into the whole thing kind of lighthearted, I guess it came across as 'emotionally volatile' but I really wasn't taking it very seriously at that point, esp. post 14. I was joking around, because it really has been predictable, and I really should have known.
Anyway, sorry for the feistiness, I just have this tendency to babysit threads I start and as a whole this turned into the opposite of what I hoped.

KEEP HOPE ALIVE!!!

:toast:
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #101
159. Thank you.
I got off DU earlier as I was tired of the name calling and negative comments about my viewpoint. I'd heard this happened here, just hadn't been the recipient. We should be able to disagree, amicably, or at least a bit more supportively. Otherwise, how the heck are we going to be able to avoid the entire world going to hell in a handbasket.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 02:50 AM
Response to Reply #101
171. I wouldn't mind if it went the other way as well
Edited on Tue Jan-18-05 02:51 AM by LittleClarkie
Not being called a Kerry bot would be nice.

Having a thread that doesn't include:

"Kerry is dead to me now" post (then why are you acknowledging his existance with a post?)

or a "Kerry who?" post (short term memory is always the first to go)

or a "Kerry is a coward" post (I hear the SBVT guys wanna go bowling with you. You're their kind of person)

or a "Got our backs, Kerry? Yeah, sure" post (just plain snark)

or a "I don't care" post (once again, then why are you posting about it?)

would be VERY nice.

Criticism and differences of opinion are one thing. The same childish whiney basher posts are damned tiresome, however. Seeing the same article posted in three different places one day, then posted again two days later, just because Kerry went to a Kennedy Xmas party that included the husband of a Kennedy who happened to be a Republican (Ahhnold in case you don't recognize him) got damned tiresome. Seeing every positive thing Kerry does put down as "campaigning for 2008" is definitely getting old.

Differing ideas are one thing. The same idea over and over is just irritating. Yes, some of you are upset with Kerry. Yes yes yes, we get it.

It's not constructive. Constructive criticism, or even thoughtful criticism I don't agree with would be preferable to what we get much of the time. I've tried today to acknowledge when I've seen posts where the author disagreed with my position, but did it with some maturity and honest discussion of the issues. That breath of fresh air was very much appreciated.
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buddysmellgood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #11
20. Yes it is good that he is saying something. But you have to admit that
that he kept quiet for a long time. That leaves a bitter taste.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #11
32. He let us down when we needed him to fight, NOW is speaking
Many of us feel let down by Kerry's absence since the election. If he were truly fighting for us, he would have continued to fight, to protest all the way regardless of whether or not repubs called him a "sore loser". Which is worse, to appear a sore loser or to give up? To stay quietly behind the scenes, leaving his supporters to only wonder what he was doing, or to fight out front for what you believe in?

It's MLK day, someone who was out front, who was seen and heard and yes, killed. Someone who effected true change.

I supported and worked for and voted for Kerry. He is speaking the truth, but has not shown he was worthy of my support.

Many people have spoken the truth and I am very glad of this. Kerry was not presidential material in the end as he was not capable of fighting the fight.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #32
75. I'm glad he wasn't out in front
We know Kerry was asked by the representatives in Congress to stay away Jan. 6th. I feel we have a better chance at fighting for election reform if our objections aren't tied to the result, but the process.

I had a conversation last night with a Conservative who shared our concern about electronic voting, and the fact that we don't all vote on the same machines. Of course, he and I are usually able to find common ground when we speak to each other. But still, it was nice to have a conversation with someone from the "other side" who can be reasonable. I think his angle is that the vote can be frauded either way without fixing.

I'm glad to hear from him on this issue. I refuse to blast him when I only have half the story. It seems like he's doing a slow burn. Mr. Meticulous strikes again. He's going at this in his own fashion. That's fine. As long as I see him go after election reform and the other things he's said he wants to fight for, then I will not attack him.

And it seems like he could say anything at this point and be blasted. That's disturbing, esp. if he begins work for reform and no one supports him because they're mad at him. I'm surprised our side still has feet left to shoot. You'd think we'd all be on prostetics by now.

Aim your anger where it belongs, folks.

Meanwhile, I can't wait to see if he's at the Condi hearings and what he has to say there.
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Amaryllis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #32
161. I don't know why he did or didn't do the things he did and didn't do, but
I sure wish he'd backed Cobb and Badnarik in the NM recount so they would have had a chance before NM started wiping the machines clean. Cam Kerry commented on the NM recount in Will's interview in such a way that he thought there was definitely something there worth looking at. I really wish Kerry had backed that. Now we will never have proof and I believe there would have been some very valuable info had that recount gone forward.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #11
81. And there were
any number of other places he could have visited that are a whole lot less dangerous. I wouldn't care to fly around in that part of the Middle East.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #11
95. The question is how much of a sucker you want to be.
Play dead when it counts, then come back all fiery to keep the following eating out of your hand.

When you call this Kerry-bashing, you show how completely you are enslaved in the partisan political mind-set. Kerry is an interchangeable. Any reliable son of the ruling class who will not question the system of presenting false alternatives within a narrowly defined reality will do. It's not about Kerry, it's about the two-party, corporate media-consensus scam that specializes in generating and then perpetuating war, often in the guise of seeking peace.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #95
102. Wow
I guess if was as negative as you I'd ...well, I'd just give in.

Which is always an option.

However, given my position, and my sentiments, I just have to look for the rainbow every time. Sure, it'd be easier to merely blast away at the shadows, as some are wont to do.

As stated, from my position, Kerry is on the bow of the boat which sailing us toward the new land. As a mere shipmate, I shan't mutinize or be too forlorn about the direction, or be so negative as to push him overboard. But that's just me.

Kerry did do a great job on Viet Nam and Iran Contra, so he deserves his position. Now he's working on voting reform. Good.
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #102
130. And if I were as positive (naive) as you...
I'd be Little Goodie TwoShoes or Rebecca of Sunnybrook Farm or Pollyanna. It's frankly depressing. It is. IMO this kind of sentiment frankly has no place among adults who are fully involved and engaged with reality:


As stated, from my position, Kerry is on the bow of the boat which sailing us toward the new land. As a mere shipmate, I shan't mutinize or be too forlorn about the direction, or be so negative as to push him overboard. But that's just me.


As for Vietnam and Iran Contra -- how many years ago were those two episodes now? It just never ceases to amaze me how people trot these two things out as if they represent a John Forbes Kerry who exists now. For me, it's like two different people, and I don't much care fot the older, more cautious, more politic and definitely more ass-saving and preserving version.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #130
135. You are not goody two shoes, eh?
You don't have a clue as to who I am... you don't know how engaged I am or how involved. You are clueless, so I suggest that you turn your biting words toward those who are opposing us, and keep your IDEAS about other DU'ers to yourself. Honey.

As for history, which you attempt to dismiss so casually, it is what brung us to the dance. Kerry earned his reputation sticking his neck out further than you ever will, Honey, so I suggest you go back and inform yourself a bit more and maybe gather a bit more integrity before wailing away at the likes of me, Honey.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #95
104. Enslaved? LOL! Your Post Sounds Like A Hackneyed Movie Character
from the 1970's depicting 18 year old radicals ranting about the "Man".

Kerry went to the ME, Falluja is a pretty dangerous place. He was hardly playing dead.

As Junior gears up to invade Iran/Syria... Kerry will have some credibility when he speaks.
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
12. Wow
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
16. If he will back it up with a Senate Investigation AND Election Reform
I will consider forgiving him.

:eyes:
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sickinohio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #16
100. HERE - HERE - Sentiments Exactly !!!
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #16
125. that's the way I feel too
The commentator said (after MLK speech today) on the video clip above
"Look for John Kerry to talk more about the election in the coming months, including specifics to improve the voting process."

--Yes I'm looking for a strong response from Kerry, however late it may appear.
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AuntiBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
17. And!?! So!?!
Agreed. Too late! Less the King is de-throwned!

"...a nation which is willing to spend several hundred million dollars in Iraq to bring them democracy."

Isn't that amount wrong; the word hundred should read "trillion!"
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yellowdogintexas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
18. another step by John Kerry in keeping the fair election theme on the front
burner for the next 4 years. I for one hope he hits on this every single chance he has.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
19. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
meganmonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. How is he a pussy? Please elaborate?
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jsw_81 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #19
96. A pussy?
With a Silver Star, a Bronze Star, and three Purple Hearts?
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kerrygoddess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
22. 
This morning at MLK Day breakfast in Boston, John Kerry offered some strong words on the problems with voting in the recent election, stressing that we must never give up on hope. Hope was the resounding theme of the Kerry campaign, and that hope lives on with so many of us today.

While reiterating that he did not contest the presidential election, Kerry said: "I nevertheless make it clear that thousands of people were suppressed in the effort to vote. Voting machines were distributed in uneven ways. In Democratic districts, it took people four, five, 11 hours to vote, while Republicans (went) through in 10 minutes _ same voting machines, same process, our America."

"Martin Luther King reminded us that yes, we have to accept finite disappointment, and I know how to do that," Kerry said to chuckles from listeners. "But he said we must ... never give up on infinite hope."


Here is a press release from Kerrys Senate website:

There is no greater gift than the one Dr. King gave to each of us.

Martin Luther King challenged the conscience of my generation, and his words and his legacy continue to move generations to action today at home and around the world. His love and faith is alive in millions of Americans who volunteer each day in soup kitchens or in schools, or who refused to ignore the suffering of millions they'd never met in far-away places when a tsunami brought unthinkable destruction. His vision and his passion is alive in churches and on campuses when millions stand up against the injustice of discrimination anywhere, or the indifference that leaves too many behind. Every Martin Luther King Day, we ask ourselves, "what if Dr. King had lived?" But this year we should challenge ourselves to ask the question not what would Dr. King have done had he lived, but what would he want us to do with the the time we have left.

What would Dr. King want us to do about the injustice of one out of every eight children in our country going without health care? It's time we live up to the ideal of social justice that Dr. King died for on that balcony in Memphis, Tennessee. It's time that we met our responsibility to see that in the richest country on the face of the earth every child has health care and we keep climbing until there's health care for the 44 million Americans without it today.

What would Dr. King want us to do when the right to vote we thought we guaranteed in the 1960's remains incomplete? It's time we live up to Dr. King's dream by making certain that every vote is counted in every county in every state in every part of our nation in every election bar none.

Dr. King led a generation that fought and bled for freedom. The weapons they faced were fire-hoses and night-sticks and dogs -- and intolerance. They braved them with conscience and guts, faith and determination. They fought and many died so that all Americans might be free.

Now it's time for all of us to apply the same sense of conscience - the same guts - the same determination - and the same faith in all we can be - to change our America for the better - and to finish Martin Luther King's work at home and around the world.


http://www.lightupthedarkness.org/blog/default.asp?view...
(links to news story & JK's press release in blog post)
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meganmonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. Thanks for posting this
I can't believe some of the responses up there. Maybe this well soothe their anger a little.
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kerrygoddess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #25
45. My pleasure
About the only thing that would soothe the anger around here is a good dose of admiting the reality of the situation. The margin was too wide and short of pulling a Bush and stomping his feet and looking like fool trying to insist he won, there was not much JK could do. Sad but true. Kerry will keep fighting for us in the Senate.
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Pooka Fey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #45
103. Without the ability to count/recount paper ballots, can you prove that?
You have a better chance of winning the 200 million $ lottery the 1st time you purchase a ticket, than ** had of winning this election.
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kerrygoddess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #103
111. The point is we can't
The point is we can't prove anything at the moment nor could we election night. Your anger would be better placed directed at Bush!
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Pooka Fey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #111
113. We can prove that hundreds of thousands of African Americans
were illegally prevented from voting, in violation of their constitutional rights (15th & 24th amendments) and the federal law (Voting Rights Act of 1965). Interference with a citizen's right to vote is a criminal offense. We've had evidence that crimes were perpetrated against black voters since Nov. 2 & before. Kerry did not even choose to be involved in the Moss v. Bush case which is pending, and has just been switched from Ohio to Federal Court. Actions speak louder than words. Congressmen swear an oath to uphold our Constitution. I'll go ahead and be angry at the leader of my own party who placed his own political career above his loyalty to his congressional office and the U.S. constitution.
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kerrygoddess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #113
126. Kerry is lawyer... Edwards is a lawyer
Are you?
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #113
128. Now, you must understand, it is not as simple as you make it
sound. The problem with proving the systematic deprivation of the voting rights of the minorities is the simple fact that the repukes have been shouting every time this comes up. The BOE's in Ohio were comprised of dems and repukes. It was up to the BOE's (some headed by dems) to make the arrangements for the necessary voting machines (or to file a complaint or suit prior to election to ensure that the appropriate number of machines.)

There lies the intricacies of the battle and the focus of much needed laws. States, not the federal government, have the only authority to conduct, control and govern elections.

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Pooka Fey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #128
131. However States do NOT have the authority to prevent access to the polls.
The following was written Robert E. Burke:
Electoral practices aimed at preventing blacks from exercising their legal right to vote were the focus of electoral reform in the 1950s and '60s. The most sweeping reforms were embodied in the Voting Rights Act of 1965. This law provided for automatic suspension of literacy tests and other voter qualification devices because they were applied in a discriminatory way; gave federal voting examiners the authority to register voters in areas not meeting certain voter participation requirements; authorized the U.S. attorney general to investigate the validity of state poll taxes; required federal review to prevent racial discrimination by new state voting laws; and made interference with voting rights conferred by the law a criminal offense. Supplementing this law was the 24th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, ratified in 1964, prohibiting poll taxes as a qualification for voting in federal elections.
Microsoft Encarta Encyclopedia 2003. 1993-2002 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.


I only got through the 1st twelve pages of Moss v. Bush - which they moved to the Federal courts, but the reason the VRA of '65 was passed was 1) Dr. Martin Luther King led a struggle to protect black voters and 2) the Feds decided that they needed to control voting laws in the deep South where "Voting while Black" was illegal. Just because Repugs are screaming to make this a partisan issue has nothing to do with the law. If you can explain the intricacies in more detail, I'd really like to understand more about this issue.
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kerrygoddess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #131
133. Would you like Kerry to represent Moss?
That would be unethical.

For all you know Kerry's team is still investigating all of this and one day could announce a major fraud investigation. Fraud is one of the hardest things to prove. I think you miss the big point that this could not be proved as easily as you and other would have liked it to be proven.

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Pooka Fey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #133
136. That's YOUR idea. I said nothing of the sort.
I would have liked to have seen Kerry's name among the list of plaintiffs on Moss v. Bush-those who were harmed by the systematic voter disenfranchisement.

Machine Fraud and Disenfranchisement of African American voters are 2 separate issues. I wrote an editorial about this issue if you would like to read it:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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kerrygoddess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #136
148. To be a plantiff
Kerry would have needed to be disenfranchised in Ohio, himself.
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Pooka Fey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #148
151. Got it. Thanks.
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kerrygoddess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #151
163. Good...
:thumbsup:
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Pooka Fey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 02:32 AM
Response to Reply #163
170. Congratulations. You got the last word in. n/t
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #131
134. The problem that exists is rather simple
Does the poor allocation of voting machines by BOE's made up of both parties equal to "preventing access to the polls" or is it just poor planning? I know that I believe it was preplanned and part of the fraud, but those who allocated the machines claim "poor planning" and point out that they did not turn people away. If people chose to leave, was it of their own free will or were they forced to leave? The legal questions have yet to be answered and it is up to a court to determine if not providing the adequate number of machines to a minority area was "systematic disenfranchisement" or merely an oversight. Keep in mind that more people turned out to vote in this election than in past elections.



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Pooka Fey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #134
139. Interesting article I found about distribution of voting machines in Ohio
http://web.northnet.org/minstrel/suburbs.htm

IMHO, there is plenty of smoke on this issue. Also everyone knew that turnout was going to be astronomical this election. There were more machines available for the primary elections in Ohio than for the presidential election.

Here's another thread about this.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Didn't they take Moss v. Bush out of Ohio because they believed that the Ohio courts were going to obstruct and run up outrageous legal bills for the plaintiffs?
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #139
142. Arnebeck hasn't given up, he has something else up his
sleeve. They dismissed Moss v. Bush because the point was moot, the judge had denied the request for expediated consideration and allowed the time to lapse between the counting of the electoral votes and the court's decision. They had requested that the Ohio electoral votes not be certified and recorded as the weed's votes. As far as I know the glib/Kerry federal action is still pending in Ohio federal court.

Again, smoke is smoke, it is not fire, it is not "actual evidence of fraud".
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Pooka Fey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #142
145. I'm glad we have Arnebeck.
I see the disenfranchisement and the machine fraud as 2 separate issues, if that's what you mean. I think there's evidence of disenfranchisement but I'm not so naive that I believe it will be easy to fight in this political climate. One of the other lawyers on DU said in today's society, the Voting Rights Act of 1965 would never make it out of a House committee. Gotta run. Thanks for the info.
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UL_Approved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
24. About time
We can blame Kerry for being a weak candidate, but that is the trump of a Fascist takeover. Kerry did right by criticizing the shrub. He hit the nail on the head comparing Iraq elections to our elections.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
26. bush steals election; kerry the bad guy
wow,. i love the way that works

bush lies about going to war
democrats are unpatriotic un american dont support the troops

bush lies cheats and steals for 4 years
it is all the voters fault who voted for him

i would be embarrassed that i get played by bushco, going after kerry for bush's sin
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #26
33. Bush is the bad guy, Kerry dropped us and let us sink
I will never ever ever quit going after bush until I am dead. Ever. However, Kerry dropped the ball. He did not fight. I am glad that he is speaking out, but he did not protest when it could have done any good. He did not rally his troops when it could have done any good. I do not consider him or the democratic party to be "big papa" who will take care of everything for us, but he could have not just dropped out. That's what we're upset about. We can hate bush and be disappointed in Kerry too.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. What the heck would you have had him do?
Edited on Mon Jan-17-05 02:16 PM by merh
He did not abandon us. They stole it from him. He couldn't not make up the 2 plus million votes that "they" claim the weed won by and he could not change the outcome of the electoral college votes (Blackwell, by law had the LEGAL right to stall, he is in charge of OHIO's elections).

If you say "fight like Gore fought", remember, Gore was not successful in his fight and there were less votes separating the win in 2000. Gore won popular, the weed won electoral.

Keep things in perspective and quit attacking the wrong man. The enemy is the weed, not Kerry.

If you want to be disappointed, be disappointed in yourselves for not getting everyone you know and everyone you came in contact with to vote for Kerry over the weed. If one person you know voted for the weed, then you let us all down, using your small view of Kerry's ability to make a difference post Nov. 3.

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meganmonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. Woops - I should have known what I was starting posting this
God forbid, we're just happy that we got some decent press for a change.

:hi:
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. I agree with you about the press coverage of this.
I am just someone who cannot stand stupid posts damning the man for not "fighting for us". Their expectations are too high and they have no grasp of reality. Their need to be saved by a super hero is silly and I will ask them what it is they expected or wanted out of the victim of the election theft.

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meganmonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #42
48. I'm with you, merh, and I am glad you're posting on this thread
He's still a Senator, for goodness' sake. We need him!!!

I just honestly forgot for a minute that this thread would turn into a Kerry bashing party.

People do seem to forget who our real adversaries are in this whole thing. Gotta stop wasting our time fighting with other progressives and the few politicians who are actually talking about this publicly.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #37
54. I would have had Kerry fight against voter fraud, publicly.
Gore was not successful in his fight to become president, but he was successful in bringing voter fraud to the view of many (though not enough). I would have had Kerry stand up in the hearings and protest fraud. I would have him openly critisizing the election fraud, in the media, massively, whether or not he was called a sore loser or not. I would have him fight like Gore fought whether or not he won but to make a big stink and get media coverage of the fraud. There are bigger issues here than who will be president or chosing 1 person to attack.

I have said that if Kerry was working behind the scenes, sending coded messages to his followers, etc, that I would publicly apologize. He wasn't and didn't.

Mr. bush is the enemy. Very much so. Kerry is the disappointment.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. He is - see the article.
If he had done it after November 3 or on January 6, the issue would have been about him and not about election fraud. Actually, he has had lawyers working in Ohio on this, the only problem with that is the other side has a huge advantage - state laws and state election officials control how and when election matters are handled.

If he had vocally cried out after November 3, 2004, he would have been seen as the sore loser crying cause he didn't win and not about the real issue "election fraud" would have been overlooked or pushed aside.

Like I said, looking at things rationally and putting emotions aside, you will understand his timing and why he didn't act when you wanted him to.

Spoiled children demanding daddy do something now, when they want because they want it, doesn't make the demands reasonable and doesn't make daddy a bad daddy just because he doesn't comply with their rants.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #56
61. Is it possible to have a different opinion without namecalling?
I understand your viewpoint, that by staying out of it, the problem became election fraud, not just Kerry whining about losing. I feel differently. I thought that a civil debate of opinions here might be possible, but fear not.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #61
63. I have not called anyone names, I have posted a different
perspective and have encouraged that Kerry's position be viewed rationally, not emotionally.

The old adage "if the shoe fits" seems appropriate now.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #63
69. ROFLOL
"your small view "
"stupid posts "
"Their need to be saved by a super hero is silly "
"Spoiled children "
Rational? You're too funny. Well, I'm off to talk with someone else.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #69
71. That is not name calling.
That is alleging that your perspective is too small and your expectations for a man to high. The spoiled children reference was a general reference to all the Kerry bashers, not you. If it had been at you, I would have said "you behave like a spoiled child."

Folks who can't take the heat, should stay out of the kitchen!
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #37
55. sorry dupe, dang computer n/t
Edited on Mon Jan-17-05 02:37 PM by uppityperson

edited for dupe
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Jamel Donating Member (79 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
27. How To Make a Million Votes Disappear
In 2001, John Coyers wrote a paper with this title and proof of voter disenfranchisement. A review of the 2000 presidential election showed that 2 mil votes were lost due to the repugs stealing and shameful racial tactics. When the dems mention disenfranchisement, why do they say thousands? The repugs run with that, making it look like it's a rare occurence. Racism is "WIDESPREAD", and until we admit that, it will never change. And national voter right legistration won't stop it. They have laws already that suppose to prevent fraud, but these thugs just ignore them. They have right wing judges who break the laws for the benefit of their party. We have to stop trying to sugar coat the problem, and tell it like it is!
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whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. That is correct, the democratic party is in denial and dysfunction
...about voting fraud, disenfranchisement, scapegoating and racism by republicans against all opposition..
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meganmonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. You're both absolutely right
I think a lot of people here are heartbroken because they are finally learning that the Dems aren't their knight in shining armor.

I just figure it's a good sign that, of all the things going on in world right now, Kerry CHOSE to talk about election fraud today. As vaguely and generically as it may be...
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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. Hey, it got elections back in the news when everyone
was filing it away. Whenever he speaks on it, it will be covered by the MSM. So... rant away, Mr. Kerry.
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Pooka Fey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #27
108. Thank you, Jamel.
Edited on Mon Jan-17-05 06:07 PM by Pooka Fey
And welcome to DU :hi:

Yes, the laws are the Voting Rights Act of 1965, the 24th amendment of the Civil Rights Era, and the 15th Amendment of the post-Civil War era. Enforcement of the laws already in place has been blatantly IGNORED by the both parties - with the exception of the Congressional Black Caucus and Barbara Boxer. Interference with voting rights conferred by the law is a criminal offense. We elect Congress and the President to uphold the Constitution. They are ignoring their sworn oaths in the name of political expediency and personal gain. There is no justification.
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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
36. And????
This says it all.

He reiterated that he decided not to challenge the election results, but went on to say that "thousands of people were suppressed in the effort to vote."

This is bullsh*t. He did not have their backs!
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meganmonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. And it is in the NEWS. Which is what everyone on the forum is always
Edited on Mon Jan-17-05 02:05 PM by meganmonkey
complaining about. More Corporate Media Coverage please!!

It just got handed to us. Is that not good?
Is there anything that people around here think is good?

I am not a Kerry defender (or basher for that matter), there is more to it than that. Be happy for small victories.
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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. Amen meganmonkey!
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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #38
46. You're right about that meganmonkey. It's just that I get so disheartened
with him. I notice its AP, so maybe it will find its way to other papers other than a local MA one.
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meganmonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #46
51. 72 results on Google News search
http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&ie=UTF-8&ncl=h...

I didn't check it all out, so I don't know if they're all the same article, but it looks pretty good so far...
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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #51
59. That's Excellent! Thank you! :) n/t
Edited on Mon Jan-17-05 02:53 PM by OmmmSweetOmmm
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #38
47. SeattlePI, 7 min ago, ..........
Edited on Mon Jan-17-05 02:20 PM by understandinglife
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/apus_story.asp?c...

Monday, January 17, 2005 Last updated 10:59 a.m. PT

Kerry criticizes election outcome

THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

PHOTO: Sen. John Kerry, D-Mass., speaks to reporters after his appearance at the Martin Luther King Jr. Memorial Breakfast in Boston, Monday, Jan. 17, 2005, where Kerry said thousands were wrongly prevented from voting in the U.S. presidential election. (AP Photo/Josh Reynolds)

BOSTON -- Sen. John Kerry, in some of his most pointed public comments yet about the presidential election, invoked Martin Luther King Jr.'s legacy on Monday as he criticized President Bush and decried reports of voter disenfranchisement." (more at link)

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

And, IF We The People...continue supplying Senator Kerry's office with all the FACTS that are being gathered regarding all the forms of disenfranchisement; all the implications of the analysis of exit polls; all the findings regarding vapor-ballot devices...we might just help him and others do the right thing.

IF We The People had even remotely the courage, conviction and persistence of the Ukrainians, We The People might have achieved even more.

It is for US to take back and never again forsake our franchise of democracy.

For all those who have died BECAUSE OF BUSH'S WAR; for all those who will die BECAUSE OF BUSH'S CONTINUED LYING; for all those who have been tortured BECAUSE OF BUSH; for all those who were disenfranchised BECAUSE OF BUSH; for all those who have lost their jobs BECAUSE OF BUSH..........

Stop bashing and hating Kerry and start bashing and hating BUSH.

BE THE BUSH OPPOSITION. HE IS THE ENEMY OF AMERICA AND HUMANITY.

As the Hopi Elders state:

"We are the ones we've been waiting for."
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LeahD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #47
62. We Have Work To Do
And Barbara Boxer said much the same today...positive action, everyone!


"One important tradition of Martin Luther King Day is to remember his call to action. Today, as we mark the national celebration of Dr. Kings birthday, let us not merely reflect on his work: let us live his legacy. On this Martin Luther King, Jr. Day, I ask you to join me in vowing to make Dr. Kings dream a reality. Let us come together to take positive action to build a better, more inclusive, more peaceful America - and while we are at it, an America where every vote counts."

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Patchuli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #38
52. I think you are right meganmonkey
There is a lot more to all this than we know. My spouse thinks there
are plans in the works to trip up * and expose the fraud and Kerry
won't blow it until the right time. I think Kerry definitely has plans
to do something about all of this. I think it's sad that others who
formerly supported him are so disappointed that they are attacking him.
Hopefully, they will eat their words. I was disappointed too, but it's true.

How the heck do you prove computerized voting fraud when the repugs
specifically had programs made that left no trace? I imagine we
are going to see some real changes in how we have voted by the next
election.

I do think time will wound all heels! :spank:
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #38
53. Yahoo, 26 min ago....
freep this:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&nci...

Kerry Criticizes Election Outcome

++++++++++++++++

Want MSM coverage; force'um to cover this story by writing to them and send citations, like the one to the extensive votersunite report; Conyers 102 page report; TIA's outstanding summary of exit poll data; ...............

BE THE BUSH OPPOSITION

"Bush Owns It: Make him eat his own dog food - NOW"
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Hugin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
43. I've made my peace with John Kerry.
And you should too...

He'll be back and I intend to support him as I support
all who fight for democracy.

Darn it!
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Fiendish Thingy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
49. Too little, too late, but...better late than never
I too, have made my peace w/Kerry. I hope he keeps up this tone over the next four years; if not, there are others (Boxer, Conyers, Dean, etc) who must lead, and Kerry can follow.
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politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
50. Had he not voted for the IWR, he would have won
And ease the burden of the soldier's mom that posted above. We're all disappointed and frustrated with Kerry and everything else, but bashing Kerry isn't going to change what happened. That's the power of the weed for you, he is dividing us and not uniting us here. :cry:
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #50
57. He did win - they stole it!
:shrug:
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
58. Why does he avoid the fraud issue...
like the plague?
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #58
137. Have you got proof, rock solid, hard evidence of fraud?
Have federal or state charges been filed alleging fraud? :shrug:
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #58
153. I think he doesn't want to cry "foul" until he knows he's not gonna
get overturned, which could be a huge setback for the whole national conversation on fraud. A premature declaration of criminal activity must run against his instincts, even though those of us here know the crime happened.

But I think we'll hear him use the F-word soon, and I'll be thinking about the credit you deserve when it happens.

:hi:
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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
60. I'm bashing, I'm bashing.
People who are willing to support John Kerry despite his post-election disappearance, should not throw stones at those of us who are still annoyed. What did I expect him to do? Not concede before all votes were cast, for one thing. And, if he happened to concede, retract it after the first 20,000 or so reports of voting problems came in. Because he didn't "have the backs" of the third party candidates, they were not - and are still not - taken as seriously as they should be. As to the statement by some that the margin of votes was too great to overcome, how do you know? Do your psychic abilities allow you to examine voting machines without having access to them? Kerry might have won by a landslide, but we'll never know because he folded his tent and went home.
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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #60
65. I'm not telling you not to bash, I am just happy to get the MSM press
No matter how we get it. I don't hate Kerry,and I don't expect you to love him. There is just no bad publicity, right!
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meganmonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #60
66. As I have said in this very thread, I am neither a basher or supporter
I am more focused on the fact that a Senator chose to speak about Election Fraud today and the article about it has been posted on 72 websites at last count.

I don't see where the problem is :shrug:
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #60
68. Ummm, would you be so kind as to provide a link that backs up
Edited on Mon Jan-17-05 03:12 PM by merh
this claim "Not concede before all votes were cast, for one thing."

If he had done all you "wished he had done" it would not have made a difference in the outcome and it would have adversely affected the efforts to to get our election process corrected and the election fraud investigated. That is my opinion and I base it on experience (Gore was not successful and he lost by a smaller margin in Florida, which gave the weed the electoral votes necessary to be declared the winner, despite the fact that Gore won the popular votes.) After the fighting and the political manuevering and the fake marches and the legal manuevering, boy oh boy, didn't Gore's fight make a difference? No.

They still stole elections in 2002 and 2004. So much for a big production like was done in 2000.

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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #68
84. It's common knowledge
all votes cast were not counted for days beyond November 3. There was the military/overseas voting, provisional ballots, etc. While I don't expect those votes would have made up the difference, it would have bought some time to investigate reports of voting irregularities without Kerry being portrayed as a sore loser. Alas, it wasn't to be. Now we'll never know if Bush was the default on all those machines or if the multi-precinct voting in one location with different ballots contributed to the loss. The election was most likely stolen - as in 2000 - and all we can do is say, "Gee whiz."
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #84
119. I asked that you back up your statement
"Not concede before all votes were cast, for one thing." Are you just making statements for the fun of making statements that bash someone, or do you have something that backs up the concession was before all votes were "cast"?

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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #119
144. I should have said counted, not cast. Sorry.
I doubt it matters to those whose votes had not been opened before the concession speech.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #144
149. Thank you for clarifying.
Since my vote did not make a difference, since the true winner was not given the seat he deserves, I too am pissed, but not at Kerry. I know how ridiculous it is to blame the victim of a crime for the crime that has an impact on my life. I blame the criminal that committed the offense. That may seem silly to you, but it is the way my mind works.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #60
70. Do you mean "before votes were counted" as they were cast?
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #60
124. Define "having the backs of the third party candidates"
You mean like not supporting their lawsuit? No, that can't be it. He did that.

You mean like not entering a lawsuit of his own? No, that can't be it. He did that.

You mean like grandstanding and such? Hell, I never expected that. Looking at his history, it was never his style. Wasn't going to start now. We had the likes of Jesse for that. Do what you're best at, I say.

There were things he DID do that he didn't have to do unless he was concerned about the process of the votes being counted. Like giving money in Washington and Louisiana. Like hiring a new lawyer who had experience in vote investigation to subplant the probate lawyer who wasn't effective.

Kerry might have won in a landslide, but we'll never know because you can't count air votes and you can't prosecute what you can't prove.
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Untouchedalarm Donating Member (76 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #60
164. Still annoyed
Wow I like that. Last week it seemed like the majority of us where bashing him. He comes back this week and now he is a hero. Puzzled?
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MellowOne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 03:09 PM
Response to Original message
67. Maybe these more here than meets the eye
Just possibly more happening behind the scenes that we don't know about. He does have many lawyers working on this. Maybe we should be patient until the investigations, lawsuits and petitions are finished.

Instead of putting all the blame on Kerry, we should support him. The efforts of all of us combined could move mountains if we decide to never give up until the fraud is exposed. Attacking each other never solves a problem, attacking the problem brings about resolve.
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Sydnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
74. For the Kerry Bashers -- rant enclosed
First, thanks Meganmonkey for posting this article. It confirms what I already know about Kerry, the man and the Senator.

Secondly, for all the "nay saying Kerry Bashers" that just don't feel complete without kicking Kerry repeatedly in the name of "political betrayal" or whatever their motivation be -- my message to them all is GROW UP! You sound like whiny babies with the political fortitude and attention span of 2 year olds!

I have long suspected that those that make those posts are new to the political process and thus their eagerness to trash their own party and their own candidates with such vim and vigor. Perhaps it is the first time you have been involved in a campaign, any campaign and feel that the candidate "let you down personally", or perhaps you just wanted ABB so badly that you didn't take the time to learn about the candidate that you half-heartedly supported (or even worked your butt off for in the name of ABB). Youth has a way of highlighting both extremes -- happiness and disappointment alike. Whatever the motivation WAS for your support of Kerry, at whatever level that was, is for you to reconcile within yourselves. I still wonder if youth is a reason for such negativity.

Just like a 2 year old, the "naysayers" seem to have an attention span that allows them to throw over one thing for something that appears new and glittering, tossing the old "favorite toy" to the ground when presented with something "different" -- by different I don't mean better necessarily, just different. And when nothing different is presented, they have a tantrum until someone gives them something different -- not better, just different. Then, heaven forbid, Kerry DO what you have been asking of him and he is damned for that as well, because it didn't fit your time frame, your motivation, your sensibilities -- whatever, and another tantrum ensues. Damned if you do and damned if you don't FROM BOTH SIDES will not encourage anyone with any worth to place their names on any ballot. Not the way we chew them up, spit them out and shit on them anyway. Who would want to volunteer to be reamed by both sides? Any of YOU naysayers run for anything lately? I thought not.

Having said that, I understand that they feel the need to express their anger, frustration and disappointment and everybody does that differently. But, just how is that contributing to the cause at hand when it's done again and again and again, getting more ugly and bitter each time? It's not. It's destructive and divisive and it's time to give it a rest. It is the behavior of "Sorelosermen" in spades.

Kerry was a good candidate -- a good man -- that in any other given set of circumstances would have made for YOU a fine president, winning easily against a candidate that met on a level playing field. This was not, I repeat, NOT, that kind of campaign. They are firing off their indignation at the very person that worked hardest for their cause. I know, their anger stems from the thought that he didn't "work harder, fighter harder, spend more, scream from the rafters, etc." but there is nothing more that can be done about that now. That was then and this is now. Kerry will not, I repeat, NOT, just let these sleeping dogs lie. He will continue to stealth-fully fight for the things that he presented during the campaign as well as election reform. He always has. His recent trip is proof that he has not rolled over or given up. Why must you insist on not seeing the half full glass that we are left with? Kerry made this trip and * has responded by countering with his own "General Luck" trip. * will be responding to the pressure of Kerry's activities for the next four years. That fact is delicious, quiet revenge. The Repugs are beginning to question their own (Armstrong Williams' deal, SS reform, etc.) and that shall be the dessert best served cold, but delightfully satisfying all the same.

Could Kerry have run a different campaign? Sure, he could have. But that is not what happened and any amount of head-staking now won't change that fact. Bring something to the table that brings change, positive change, to the party. Begin working on changing the direction of the party. Expend that energy looking to the future and stop spitting up in your plate. It's not the least bit attractive to the party or the cause.

Be the leader that you need and others will follow. Set the tone in positive ways and others will listen. Continue shitting where you eat and you foul it up for all of us.

Praise Boxer -- I concur with that. But, never lose site of the fact that she contacted both Gore and Kerry before each opportunity to challenge and got Kerry's support in that effort, the opposite of what Gore's response was.

I am dismayed at the "Sarah Bernhardt School of Dramatic Democratic Campaign Reactions" that seem to permeate any positive action taken by Kerry now that he has "lost" his campaign. Have some guts to stand by the candidate for a change. It might make all the difference in the long run for you and for our country.

Let Kerry know what you expect of him, support him in those ends and remember, you get more respect looking forward than you do looking back.

</end rant>

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meganmonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #74
85. Snap! You tell it like it is, sister!
:toast:
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RevCheesehead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #74
169. (applause, applause) What a beautiful rant!
I like the line "Sarah Bernhardt School of Democratic Campaign Reactions."

Have you considered joining the DUDQ? (DU Drama Queens)? We haven't had a meeting in a while, but keep your eyes opened for unannounced performances!

(I really liked your post!)
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AgadorSparticus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 03:40 AM
Response to Reply #169
172. DU Drama Queens apparently can cut both ways.
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Pacifist Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
76. I hope Kerry's comments bring even more notoriety to the issue.
I also hope he keeps the pressure on in congress for investigating/prosecuting 2004 and reforming with enforcement teeth for future elections.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
77. "Too little too late" is on its way to subplanting "flipflopper"
as my most hated phrase ever.

Maybe, just maybe, he's speaking his mind. A bit too slow for some, but hey, you can't always get exactly what you want exactly when you want it. Too little too late for what. To make everybody feel better? Only a Kerry presidency would do that. And only those trapped in fantasy thought we were ever going to get that. There was no way.

It is good that he said this. That's all. I don't care about the timing. And for some, it will never be enough.

Meanwhile, I wonder if I will ever get over this election. I can't even look at Pickles right now without getting upset. The Parade article this Sunday just made me cry. I don't care what she wants to do, she's not the real First Lady. That's the first thing that popped into my head when I saw the cover, that she's not even supposed to be there, so who cares what her plans are.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
78. How many times does that make?
He's been addressing the election and voting problems since his email in November. Campaign lawyers have been involved in Ohio. I just don't know what reality some people live in. The changes aren't going to come from screaming fraud and painting the country orange, they're going to come over time with hard work from dedicated people in Congress. That's the way it works.
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politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #78
79. Hello sandnsea
Are you still mad at me? :hi:
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
80. Wow! Great to read.
Sounds like they're gearing up at the top for some action.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
82. "Operation Infinite Hope" begins....let's hope it's successful...n/t
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demodonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
83. Glad he's coming out about this now, but Kerry COULD have....
...made more of a deal about JANUARY 6.

Instead of running to Iraq, he COULD have announced some of his "concerns" about the voting and about disenfranchising people BEFORE 1/6 (other than in an e-mail to his supporters). He could have made more of a public deal about being concerned -- if necessary, "abstaining" from any vote to Challenge the Ohio Electors (due to his "personal" involvement in the outcome, yadda yadda, again if necessary to keep himself "above the partisan fray".)

If Kerry had come out then, we might have had a little more MSM coverage of what should have been a historic event (and in the long run may turn out to be, I hope).

All I know is I marched up Capitol Hill that day right next to David Cobb himself and a bunch of Greens who had worked hard to get the recount... but didn't see any MSM cameras on us, nor did I see Kerry with us.

Even in spirit, really.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #83
99. msm will report, msm will report in positive or even factually
Edited on Mon Jan-17-05 05:18 PM by seabeyond
not a chance. msm didnt report all while he was running against bush. msm only reported the negative, nasty and made up. why do you think anything kerry did msm would report, or report in backing him. msm would have bashed kerry the moment he said not going to concede. what would have been created, i dont know. but i do know msm has power. they get to decide what people see and hear. kinda like swift boat drama. anyone think msm would have been non bias if kerry had challenged election without smoking gun?
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ottozen Donating Member (92 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 04:34 PM
Response to Original message
88. What Fraud?
In order for there to be a remedy at law for a fraud, damage needs to be proved. If no damage, then no remedy. "Although it would not have changed the outcome of the election" eliminates the need for a remedy and undercuts the necessity of investigating what may be the ultimate, to date, crime. Fraud is a nasty word. People shy away from its use in "civil" company.

Nevertheless, only massive fraud could have changed the outcome of this election. Thus, if there was fraud, it was massive, it was criminal, and it reached to the top. IF THERE WAS ARCH-CRIMINAL STYLE FRAUD THEN IT SURELY DID CHANGE THE OUTCOME OF THE ELECTION!!!!

Hacked? Why not? Follow the money!

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New Earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
89. people really need to
get the hell over it. and i don't mean get over the election.
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meganmonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #89
90. C'mon Faye, tell us what you mean!
;)
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
91. Rate the story on Yahoo
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #91
105. Done
:kick:
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Patsy Stone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #91
106. done - 5:54 p.m. est
2.99 with 1022 vote
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Patsy Stone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 05:58 PM
Response to Original message
107. How many times do I have to tell you people
that this man is just wonderful? I believe he won, I believe more people voted for him and I believe he's acting more presidential than that ahole currently mucking up 1600 Penn. Ave.

I love you, President John Kerry. :loveya:

I hope this is the beginning of a real "shadow government/opposing party" thing. Hey, I can dream, can't I?
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #107
117. I think we've seen only the beginning
but rather than rally around the comments, we bash, we bitch, we whine, we all but declare the man a threat to world peace.

He will proceed with whatever he has planned, whether he has support or not. He had precious little even during some of his more glorious moments, like his BCCI investigations. He went after Dems that were popular as well as the Repubs, whoever happened to be involved, and got much flak for it.

I ain't dreaming. I'm just waiting to see what happens, and doing what I can in return. If I added up all the things Kerry has said and done since the election, and the responses here (usually "too little too late") I think we'd see that Kerry has done more than some people realize, and that the response to each has been to bash.

I wonder when the balance will turn from too little too late to "now you're talkin'"

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Patsy Stone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #117
121. Amen. n/t
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Untouchedalarm Donating Member (76 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #107
127. Be For Real
Kerry was the chosen one. If anybody else had debated with Bush they would have slammed dunked his butt.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #127
132. Kerry did slam dunk his butt.
What realm of reality are you living in, the neo-cons'?
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #132
140. He/she/it is saying that anyone could have slam dunked the Shrub
which is quite revisionist I think. Kerry spent much time and effort preparing for those debates it is said. I still loved seeing the Smirk with that look on his face. Kerry didn't just slam dunk the guy, he accomplished his ultimate goal, which was to get under Bush's skin. Hence bringing up his father and that ol' dad didn't even agree with what Bush was doing. And bringing up Tora Bora -- Kerry was the only one in the candidate debates who used to do that, you know. Esp. in the first debate, Kerry had the foreign policy chops to go after Bush where it hurt. And that was supposed to be his WEAK debate. Edwards showed that he would have been competent, but perhaps not a superstar. And I believe the rest of the field (except for Joementum, who would have agreed with the bastard) would have done just fine in domestic issues, but not as well in the foreign policy debate.

Don't take that debate away from him. We got more volunteers out of that one debate than I can count. We were so fucking psyched after that sucker. HQ was a wonder to behold. It was glorious.

I can still hear the voice of a Bush supporter I knew whining about how the questions hadn't been fair, that the moderator had been biased, blah blah blah. Hee hee!

Even now, sometimes when I think of some of those volunteer and what they did, I get misty. I esp. feel for the Veterans for Kerry. They spent their own money. They were the true grassroots of the campaign, even though sometimes I got reports that early in Kerry's campaign that his army of volunteer vets didn't always know what the flying fuck they were doing. But then again I got the same reports about early Dean supporters, so it must have been a learning curve thing.
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Untouchedalarm Donating Member (76 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #132
166. Slam dunk
Ouch, too cold. Kerry was very good in the debates. There were some issues Kerry was too soft with Bush on. I wanted a TKO
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seito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #127
155. What's that you say
:crazy:

Cuz...you know it's a... hard work :freak:
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seito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #107
154. Say it again, Patsy
President John Kerry :loveya:
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SmileMaker Donating Member (346 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
112. It was good that he used today to talk about votes
It will be even better if he used his knowledge of the crooked, lying gang of thugs plus his insider position to bring them down once and for all.

Let's say our prayers. In memory of MLK, JFK, RFK and so many others.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #112
116. I thought it appropriate as well.
God bless and watch over the Dems and the 109th Congress. May they turn words into actions. Amen.
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DemonFighterLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 09:22 PM
Response to Original message
146. I will still hold hope for Kerry
But his being out of the picture so long left everyone hanging in the breeze. We all know election fraud happened and Kerry could have won. My problem lies with the stolen election in 2000 and * doing nothing good since. There is no way that dubby could have gotten his mandate.
I also don't like the dubya gang purging the cia and fbi and getting by not investigating 9/11 and starting a war based on cooked up intel. Of course we have his great Patriot act and homeland security scare tactics to deal with. Corrupt courts and war without end.
Kerry and the boys and girls in the congress/senate could have done better. Like a poster above, complicity always hangs in the air. The thieves and crooks should not win every time. Where is the Anthrax mailer? Why was there a stand down on 9/11? Why are we following pipeline dreams instead of preparing America for a less oil future. I would rather have alternative energy, than fight for the last drop. But I guess the die is cast.
If Kerry can take the bums out, I will take back any derogatory stuff I have said. Just wish that silence wasn't the rule. Spill your guts and get the sh*t on the table. :freak:
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
147. Actually Sen Kerry a post election audit in Franklin Cty Ohio
demonstrated about 20,000 in Franklin county alone! Perhaps he should read Rep Conyers report.
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BigBearJohn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 10:18 PM
Response to Original message
156. What's done is done. However, there IS a silver lining to this mess.
Kerry is now speaking out for vote reform and bring abuse to light.
I am happy whenever ANY senator trumpets about the cause of democracy.
Who here would prefer that he said NOTHING about Ohio?
I don't care if he is "too late"... fact is, he is NOW standing up.
I will take all the support we can get on this matter.
What was depressing me was the fact that hardly NO ONE was talking
about the abuses in Ohio. Now we have Kerry speaking out.
Let's be glad about that. Plus, he's getting press.
I think all of our rumbling about changing parties might have
made an impression. At any rate, I am happy we have someone of
Kerry's stature finally standing up.
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meganmonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #156
157. Exactly!!! A Senator on the news for talking about it!!!
That's what we need, that's what we got, it's a good thing!

:toast:
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NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
158. And Keith Olbermann's comment on tonight's Countdown:
After playing a clip of Kerry's speech on the voting problems

Olbermann: Senator Kerry also announced tonight that the Red Sox had apparently won the World Series.

{laughter offstage}
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locomotion Donating Member (11 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 11:10 PM
Response to Original message
160. Unfortunately,
I think Kerry was against election fraud after he was absent on election fraud.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 11:34 PM
Response to Original message
162. That issue was killed by Democrats on Jan. 6
Their chance to make that a well-known, national issue died when the majority of them refused to fight.

I appreciate the handful that did stand up against voting fraud.
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Fiendish Thingy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 01:00 AM
Response to Original message
165. Here's another link on this story...rate it!
on Yahoo
(different than the other Yahoo link)

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GetTheRightVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #165
168. I lost my faith in Sen John Kerry along with many not because of who he is
Edited on Tue Jan-18-05 02:20 AM by GetTheRightVote
but for better reasons then just one person. I believe with all my heart what my country represents should be displayed in her leaders, JF being one of them. When our Democracy fails or is stolen from us it must be defended by all who see it happen be it, you, myself, or our elected representatives. This opportunity appeared to be slipping away on us until we the people stood up and said no to everyone. That is everyone, Republicans, Democrats, and all the right wingers who would take what is ours away from us in the shadows of the night.

We told them all to hold on one moment, we smell a rat on this sinking ship and we demand a stop to it all. You will not take what is mine from me without a fight. Now I feel more American then I have ever felt in my life. I am alive with Democracy running thru my blood and I know that as long as you and I live this country is safe because we will fight for her when all others fail us.

Though I to was very angry with JF and will be watching him to improve over the next few weeks and months because I am sure this man wanted to be President perhaps too much to the point he even questioned what was happening in this country. WE THE PEOPLE are becoming reborn, slowly but surely we are awakening to the dangers which our country faces and we want badly to protect her and to hold on to her. I feel a bond which strengthens every day more so then the day before with those who will stand up with me to claim their rights as citizens.

It warms my heart to see the actions and to read the words of fellow patriotics so I will allow JF to stand up now and have his say. It is better then the other option with Mr. * who will not even admit that he made a mistake, it takes strength to stand up after making a mistake. Remember this, Sen Barbara Boxer stated that she felt badly about not standing up for the stolen election of 2000 yet this year she stood up to defend Democracy and has made up for her previous mistake. She is forgiven, can we not now extend the same thoughts to JF and give him his day as well to be forgiven or are we not the Americans we represent ourselves to be ? We must stand together as one force against those who would destory us.

:kick:
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meganmonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #168
174. Very Good Post, GetTheRightVote!!
Thank you for posting this. You seem to have strong emotion and you have balanced it with reality. And you recognize that WE are the important factor in this and we must stick together - I think that is the most important thing. I wish I could say it as eloquently as you. Thank you so much for sharing that with us!

:toast:
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BigBearJohn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
175. Overheard on the radio twith Ed Schultz - it really hit me
a Repub caller was speaking to Ed
and he said, "if all you guys are
putting down your OWN candidate,
how on earth did you expect any of
us on the other side to vote for him?"
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meganmonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #175
176. EXACTLY!!!!!
You should post a new thread with that, BigBear! (Although it would still probably turn out liek this one ;) )
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #176
177. with you monkey. now we are attacking biden
and i think it is so foolish. i liked what biden said. he said things we are saying on the board. but people pick a couple things, take em out of context and make it something it isnt. then they say kick his ass out

biden today got the ball rolling. immediately on this board a handful started trashin, didnt matter what biden said
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demo dutch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-20-05 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #175
180. Duh!!! I have saying that for months on DU, that's why the repugs
Edited on Thu Jan-20-05 09:29 AM by demo dutch
beat us everytime, they are a UNITED front! This party will never stand a chance until they stay united!
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count_alucard Donating Member (105 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-20-05 07:53 AM
Response to Original message
179. thank you Kerry
for 'reporting for duty' and making sure EVERY voted counted. What a joke.
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