Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

KERRY PREPARING GROUNDS TO UNCONCEDE (Thread 2)

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Election Reform Donate to DU
 
shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 12:00 AM
Original message
KERRY PREPARING GROUNDS TO UNCONCEDE (Thread 2)
AS TRIAD VOTE CRIMES DETAILED
BreakForNews.com, 24th Dec, 2004 23:00ET
by Fintan Dunne, Editor EXCLUSIVE

On 23 December, 2004 Kerry's lawyer confirmed to MSNBC's 'Countdown' that John Kerry will be seeking (likely on Monday 27 Dec.) to expedite court proceedings in an ongoing recount suit by the Green and Libertarian parties. That might sound like just another "count every vote" exercise by the Kerry campaign, were it not for two important details.

Kerry's court filing will conjoin him to existing allegations that Triad Systems, a Republican-linked supplier of voting machines to around half of Ohio counties --"orchestrated" a covert campaign to thwart a legitimate recount in Ohio. If the allegation proves well founded, it could invalidate the Ohio recount and eventually even hand the presidency to John Kerry.

Which probably explains the second critical detail: a quiet, on the record bombshell statement to 'Countdown' by Daniel Hoffheimer, the Cincinnati lawyer representing the Kerry campaign in Ohio.

Previously, the Kerry Campaign's intent in Ohio seemed to be merely an exercise of American civic spiritedness.

Two weeks ago, when Kerry wrote to Ohio's 88 county boards of election asking to visually inspect some ballots, Donald McTigue, the lawyer handling the recount for the Kerry campaign said: "We're trying to increase the transparency of the election process."

In early December, when the Kerry Campaign joined a suit by Green and Libertarian party candidates seeking a recount in Delaware County, Daniel Hoffheimer said Kerry wasn't disputing President Bush's victory in Ohio. The aim was to make sure any recount was "done accurately and completely," Hoffheimer said.

Now MSNBC 'Countdown' reports the same Hoffheimer, in comments on their imminent filing in the Ohio recount, concluding their call for a scrupulous recount with this caveat:

"...Only then can the integrity of the entire electoral process and the election of Bush/Cheney warrant the public trust."

That's the first time the Kerry Campaign has impugned the legitimacy of Bush's reelection.

RECOUNT CHEAT SHEETS

It's a signal move, likely driven by emerging evidence of suspicious activity by representatives of Triad Systems during the recount in Ohio. Evidence which has led a senior Democrat, ranking House Judiciary Cmtee. member, John Conyers Jr. to accuse the boss of Triad Systems of "orchestrating" a criminal conspiracy to pervert the outcome of the Ohio recount.

The allegations first surfaced before an Ohio hearing convened by Conyers on behalf of Democratic Minority members of the House Judiciary Committee. An affidavit filed by Sherole Eaton, Hocking County deputy director of elections, stated that a Triad representative had told her "how to post a 'cheat sheet' on the wall so the ...count would come out perfect and we wouldn't have to do a full hand recount of the county."

That account has been corroborated by other officials and by extracts from a video documentary in which a Triad technician admits that the company was in possession of computer "backup" copies of the official election data.


SIGNAL, THEN MANEUVER

If the recount was fraudulent, does that have implications for the validity of the first count in Ohio? The Kerry campaign knows full well that it does. That's why their latest statement questions the "integrity" of the "entire" electoral process. And the election of Bush/Cheney.

For Kerry, a fraudulent recount in Ohio could be an open door into to the Oval Office. Already, John Conyers is confident that a few U.S. Senators will join House members on January 6 to question the November 2 election.

But don't expect Kerry to quickly rush to a microphone in order to unconcede. He doesn't have to. His unconcession will take effect by default.

If the Ohio recount is shown fraudulent, the domino effect could carry him through that door without claiming victory or even unconceding.

Simply by allowing Bush's claim on the Office of President to fall --piece by fraudulent piece. Nudging the dominoes to topple in the right way.

Thus leaving Kerry, poised to step into office over the Bush debris.


Thread 1 here:
<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph... >
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
iconoclastic cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 12:03 AM
Response to Original message
1. I think if that happens, there will be violence in the streets.
All hell will break loose.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #1
11. We are in the midst of a COLD CIVIL WAR
so you are right, it may go into a HOT CIVIL WAR.

My question to you is what price are all of us willing to pay to restore this republic?

Hell I will ask another one, what if the country breaks over this? AKA the south secedes?

That said... IF this news is correct, I will sing Oh Tannenbaun... and remember December 25th as a historic day.

Oh and if this happens, things will indeed get very interesting.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
iconoclastic cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #11
18. IconCat to Fundegelican Fascists: Buh-bye! **smooches**
Edited on Sun Dec-26-04 12:30 AM by iconoclastic cat
That's how far.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
George W. Hayduke Donating Member (108 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #11
91. one things for sure-
Edited on Sun Dec-26-04 02:41 AM by George W. Hayduke
there'll be a separatin' of the wheat from the chaff as this all unfolds.

Major wake-up calls are coming, one way or another.

The longer this disease of neo-fascism, dishonesty, greed and apathy festers in this country, the harder it will be to recover any hope of democracy and peace.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #91
100. The separation has started
in my opinion.

You are already seeing those who love this country and will do anything to restore the rule of law and those who are blind followers

My prediction, when this is all said and done, you will find very few Bush Republicans... just like you found very few Nixon Republicans after Watergate, or for that matter, Nazis.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AgadorSparticus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 07:48 AM
Response to Reply #100
122. i hope and pray you are right. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TexasChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #100
132. Sometimes I think a civil war is the only choice we have to regain our
once great nation. It would be too easy to kick these Fundies and Freeptards butts. Seriously. I do believe we (Dems, Repuketards against Bush, and Independents) outnumber them. I want my country back. I am a Christian, but that wouldn't keep me from helping to defend our Constitution (and my God's reputation from lying Smirking Chimp for that matter) and going to war with others in this nation if it is the only way to get rid of the cancer that is trying to overtake this country.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KnowerOfLogic Donating Member (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #132
154. Secession now! nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #132
157. Please TexasChick...
If a Republican is against bush, please call them Republicans, not 'Repuketards'.

The 'Repuketards' support Bush**.

I'm a Republican.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #157
158. Hear hear. True Republicans are not enemies of democracy.
Edited on Sun Dec-26-04 03:17 PM by bleever
I'd give anything to see the opposition representing the views of the likes of McCain, Ford, Dole, Lugar, or other such (apparently) non-fascistic politicians.

I wouldn't agree with them. But at least I'd feel like they belonged in (and actually believed in) a two-party system, rather than an anti-democratic corpocracy.

:hi:

(Edited to add: OMG, my conciliatory post bears the number of the Beast!)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Vektor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #158
166. Tee-hee
I just noticed your "number of the beast" post. I was going to clue you in, but you spotted it!
:evilgrin:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TexasChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #157
165. I'll take that into consideration next time.
Edited on Sun Dec-26-04 04:47 PM by TexasChick

Edited to let you know that I'm not promising anything. It's just too much of a habit to remember 24/7. I'll try though.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-04 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #165
206. LOL! - no problem. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 04:47 AM
Response to Reply #157
214. I'd like to think of you and me as AMERICANS
who will do anything to protect the country from enemies both foreign and domestic.

This is NOT a party thing.

So as I told you in another thread a while ago... here is my hand, as an American... not a Democrat, not a Green, not anything but an American.

And for Texas chick, lets talk about patriots, since there are many of all political stripes who see the danger that these people pose... they are that internal enemy that I took an oath to defend and protect the contitution against.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madison2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #100
145. Its getting hard to find a "Bush" Republican even now
The Dems won't have to make noise over his ridiculous plans to demolish Social Security- there are enough sensible Reps to do it.
Reps are criticizing Rumsfeld...
This morning George Will said "Bush wants a presidency on steroids" which is pretty nasty, even for George Will.
I think they're pretty sick of him too.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SlowDownFast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-04 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #145
190. dunno about you
but i find way too many of them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-04 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #145
194. Possibly they are distancing themselves for other reasons as well
As I recall, Nixon did a lot of centralization of power to the executive branch before his fall from grace. Just because they publicly dismiss allegations of widespread election fraud, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are not privately believers themselves.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #11
170. Erinneren Sie sich die dritte Strophe:
O Tannenbaum, o Tannenbaum!
Dein Kleid will mich
was lehren:
Die Hoffnung und Bestndigkeit
Gibt Trost und Kraft
zu jeder Zeit.
O Tannenbaum, o Tannenbaum!
Das soll dein Kleid
mich lehren.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
the ether Donating Member (209 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #170
172. ja, aber was meinst du mit daS?


Sollen wir das am Inauguration Day singen?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #172
173. NadineBrzezinski hat uns sagt,
Edited on Sun Dec-26-04 07:33 PM by Jackpine Radical
"IF this news is correct, I will sing Oh Tannenbaun... and remember December 25th as a historic day."

Here's a rather awkward English translation of the third verse that I found:
http://german.about.com/library/blotannenb.htm

O Christmas tree, o Christmas tree
Your dress wants to
teach me something:
Your hope and durability
Provide comfort and strength
at any time.
O Christmas tree, o Christmas tree,
That's what your dress should
teach me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
buddysmellgood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #1
12. So be it. I will live free or die.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
oscar111 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #1
15. very little, IMHO. Americans are sluggish
If the MSM says a different winner, they will say, OK.

Scattered trouble, in Alabama for instance, but no more than that.

Americans are very passive, it seems to me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
iconoclastic cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. You may be right. Apathy is their true diety.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tandem5 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #15
70. its all how the media breaks it to the American people...
Edited on Sun Dec-26-04 01:24 AM by tandem5
slow - and you will get general acceptance.

fast, sudden - The way the media has done a total blackout... who knows how the people will react. Actually my gut feeling is the masses will turn on the media. On the one side (democrats) the media will be blamed for not investigating soon enough and on the other side (repugs) they will be accused of engaging in a liberal conspiracy to take away *their* president. In other words... talking heads will become non-talking heads on pikes!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
zann725 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 02:24 AM
Response to Reply #70
104. Regarding the Media not reporting it...I asked on another thread...
if the Media IS aware that crimes have been and are being committed (by the Admin.), and choose to lie about them, or cover up in silence...then are they not (in legal-ese) "Accessories to the Fact" in "aiding and abetting" criminal acts? And if so, could we not legally hold their 'feet to the fire,' and legally force them to cover the facts on that basis?

Any lawyers out there?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 03:03 AM
Response to Reply #104
112. Not a lawyer, but do agree with your concept.
Especially if it can be proven that the altering of the exit poll results and the withholding of the exit poll data has contributed to the illegal enterprise, the election fraud. Just imagine if folks working for a certain network come forth and tell the investigators that they were ordered by their owners to not report the true figures and to alter the results to comport with the "final count" that matches the fraudulent results. Now, wouldn't that exeutive or owner be an accomplice to the fraud and subject to criminal prosecution say under RICO. I am sure that faxes or emails were used to communicate the messages. Mail/Wire Fraud! RICO!

Is it hoping too much to hope that when the fraud is finally investigated and people prosecuted (or laws written to prevent the fraud from happening again) that a free and unbiased media will emerge. The owners and executives involved in the fraud will be history and laws will be written to prevent the monopoly and control of our press!

So much could happen, so much hope.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Flammable Materials Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #70
139. Is that a moustache on Harris ...
... or a dirty sanchez?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tandem5 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #139
164. its a judgment call nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ginnyinWI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #15
72. Doubtless, Bush would be called upon to say something
publicly, or in other words, concede the election to Kerry. That would settle it in a lot of people's minds.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
malatesta1137 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 05:27 AM
Response to Reply #72
118. lol
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Unforgiven Donating Member (613 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #1
99. Why
Was there violence in the streets in 2000?

Do you think it would be wise for Bush supporters to attack liberals for their own foul mess? Although they may not see it that way.

But we are the ones that have had the election stolen from us and probably the last three times as well.

If there is a reason for people to be in the streets, it should be us, not them. God help them if they are stupid enough to pick a fight with a group of people who have had two, possibly three elections stolen from them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
iconoclastic cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 04:28 AM
Response to Reply #99
117. True
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KaliTracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-04 02:30 AM
Response to Reply #99
201. Ohio had some action November 3rd
but I just heard about it this week, when someone posted this link.

http://michiganimc.org/feature/display/7644/index.php

MSM will keep things quiet unless there are just too many people involved in the protest ('course, when they filmed the war protests they weren't fair with that, either....)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #1
146. What's your point?
I've heard much the same on these threads many times before, but have never learnt what point the poster was trying to make.

If the Dems behaved like the Republican parties' low-lifes, do you think their boards would be full of fearful warnings? They may be many things, but one thing they aren't is a party of "sky's falling in" types. They're an army. End of story. And imo, even as a pathetic limey, it's time this sort of wimpy maundering on this board stopped. Not that I attribute many such posts to Dems. It seems to me that Repug operatives are among the very few who haven't stopped their posts for Christmas.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
New Earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 12:04 AM
Response to Original message
2. i didn't give my opinion in the other thread
Edited on Sun Dec-26-04 12:05 AM by Faye
but i will now. i think it is way too 'premature' to say he is 'preparing grounds to unconcede'. we really don't know what he is doing. he is doing something, that is for sure. he doesn't HAVE to concede. like someone else said, if the facts and evidence are there, all he has to do is claim victory. to some it feels 'too late', but this is only the beginning.

Remember, he is asking to have any and all evidence relating to the incidences in Ohio (specifically the recount) secured. He isn't asking FOR a recount - which implies he doesn't only think the votes were miscounted, but that they were fraudulently counted.

This step only shows us that he is aware of the probablity of Fraud and most definately believes there is evidence to support the probability.

It's a strong move, but it doesn't mean he's preparing to 'unconcede'. It means getting ready to fight.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Miami Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Well said
I agree with your post. He's definitely getting ready to fight.

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. No
He never stopped fighting.

Don't mistake silence for inactivity.

Kerry's a warrior, and the smartest warriors know how to wait.

I've maintained, since November 3, 2004, that all of this would unfold just as it's now unfolding. All this stuff takes time; the foundation needed to be laid, and for that, we have the Green and Libertarian people to thank.

As for how Kerry's comported himself since the concession speech (which, I remind everyone again, had absolutely NO legal implication), it's been brilliant. Just goddamned brilliant. Respectful of Fuckface's "win." Respectful of the office of the Presidency. Respectful of the voters.

All the while, people have been compiling evidence, and now, with the affidavit from the election worker, and other verifying documents and tapes, the time is ripe, as we lawyers like to say.

John Kerry is our next President. I have never not believed that. And, in the next few weeks, I honestly believe we're going to see history made.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
New Earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. hey you
Edited on Sun Dec-26-04 12:21 AM by Faye
i never underestimated John Kerry, not once. i think he is now publicly fighting and i am one of those that has always believed he has been 'working behind the scenes'. don't read me wrong, i am a huge Kerry fan and i am the one who started the John Kerry Group which you should come over and join :) :loveya:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
buzzard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #7
37. Faye where is the group you formed I haven't seen it. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
New Earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. here
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

you can read now, but you have to have a gold star to post :(
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
zann725 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 02:30 AM
Response to Reply #38
106. How does one get a gold star?
(Haven't had one since grade school.) :eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
New Earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 02:37 AM
Response to Reply #106
108. lol awww
you have to contribute (donate) some money to the DU site.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bear425 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #38
179. Hi Faye, I didn't know about the John Kerry Group until you
just posted it. Thanks! I will add it to my favorites. See you there sometime.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MandateThis Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 04:19 AM
Response to Reply #7
212. Kerry Group?
Faye? How do I join your group? Mariannedarling1@aol.com . I"m glad to have a Leftie Lawyer agree with what I've been saying since November 4th, that Kerry had plans. Bush and Rove, such evil dumb asses see and think in black and white. If they didn't "see" John Kerry doing something, they think he's not concerned. There's a lot to be said for nuance and behind the scenes actions. Let's be glad we aren't part of the other side that fell for the dumbing down spell cast by
their misleader. Shheeesh! The guy brags about not reading the papers and so completely uninformed! I want a president who isn't rude, crude, or a big bully or as intellectually curious as a slug!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Miami Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. I hope you're right
There's nothing I want more than to have John Kerry as our president.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
caledesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #4
27. OLL - you give me hope. "fuckface" - love it. nt
Edited on Sun Dec-26-04 12:37 AM by caledesi
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
New Earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #27
31. OLL=out loud laughing
Edited on Sun Dec-26-04 12:42 AM by Faye
or Out Laughing Loud.

you decide - Decision2004


(drunk)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
New Earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #31
90. why didn't anyone correct me?
:( it means Old Leftie Lawyer :(

duh - that's like me having something on my face and no one telling me all day :(
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #4
50. OldLeftie
I believe as you do, and your posts make a hell of a lot of sense. I have never doubted that John Kerry has been working this issue from day one. He is a smart man and he knows *. Members of his team have been personally screwed by the * fraud machine, so I strongly believe that he knew what they were going to try to pull. I believe that he was more than prepared for it. I am sure that he would have preferred to have won by a majority beyond the margin of fraud, but that is not what happened.

I am not at all concerned about the lack of media attention. I believe that when our side is ready to have all eyes on Ohio, they will have it. If the evidence is a damning as I believe it is, it will be front page.

JMHO

That being said, I am in for the long fight. Regardless of the outcome.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
zann725 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #4
105. Thank you again Leftie...for your level-headed assessment.
n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bunny planet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 03:05 AM
Response to Reply #4
113. God how I hope you are right OldLeftie. It feels good just reading your
posts lay out why and how it might be possible.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #4
174. Thanks Old Leftie Lawyer
and others on this thread who've given me back some hope. My very strong belief and faith that justice would prevail and that Kerry would do the right thing and fight this to the bitter end has weakened of late.

I do think that the repukes will fight this tooth and nail and that it's gonna get ugly, really ugly. I've seen first hand how nasty and militant they can be because I regularly post on another board where they get extremely angry and vindictive about anything posted against their leader *.

I sincerely hope that Kerry and the other heros in this fight are very well prepared for the venom the repukes will spew and the dirty tactics they will resort to; because they will stop at nothing to win.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #174
188. Know what I think?
I think they were prepared for this as soon as Kerry became the candidate.

Have faith. Slow, but steady. Just keep faith.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KerryReallyWon Donating Member (297 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-04 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #188
191. I have said that as well.. Kerry went through this with Max in 2002.
They were aware the repugs have done this in the past. Remember the computer patch found on the web called "robgeorgia". They used it to take out Max, used the swiftboat liars as the reason. Did it again. Kerry is aware of it all. Since he became the nominee, you can bet there were two campaigns going! I have known about the fraud, I live and work in Fla. I have never believed that JK would run this race for 2 1/2 yrs, knowing they could and probably do this, and do NOTHING. NO WAY--JK ALL THE WAY!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pacalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-04 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #4
200. OldLeftieLawyer...
Do you suppose that's why Whatshisname has been shuffling around cabinet members to fill vacancies instead of hiring new people? Why would he uproot people from their lifelong careers if he's not confident that he'll be in office much longer? Or maybe he senses that he'll be thrown out of office for any of a long list of other reasons? Or maybe he doesn't want any new people entering his tight circle of confidantes, considering how much he has to hide?

Thanks for the uplifting words. Good to hear a lawyer's thoughts, especially as positive as yours. :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bush_is_wacko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #2
13. Yep
Kerry is and always has been ready and willing to fight the good fight, but he is also very careful to make sure he has all his ducks in a row before he jumps into the fray. The bigger picture here for Kerry, besides proving fraud, I think may to try and avoid what the other poster says about people taking it to the streets. We are for all intents and purposes poised on the brink of a Constitutional crisis. True die hard Re thugs may indeed take to the streets toting guns and creating havoc if the Presidency is "handed over" to Kerry/Edwards without what they consider irrefutable proof. I find no place in the constitution or otherwise that addresses FRAUD specifically and the remedies for this situation. While I agree that procedure is a vote in the house and senate after the electoral certification is invalidated, I do not think we can even dream of what consequences such a DIVIDED house and senate could create with regards to such a vote. I think there may be discussions about procedural issues like this up until January 6th by both parties if they have come to the conclusion they must contest, they are scrutinizing just what will happen at that point. Believe me, they do not want to leave this event un-choreographed. It is history changing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #13
26. Actually the Constitution does adress fraud
not as fraud itself, but if this is tied all the way to the WH (Karl Rove was playing on his computer that night in teh WH... for instance)... it is adressed as High Crimes and Misdemeanors. Yes the real thing... not what they tried with Clinton.

Hell it also adresses Treason, though Treason under the US System is SO DAMN HARD TO PROVE (annie coulter if you are readying this, please review that) that again usually this defaults to High Crimes.

What is for sure is... we are entering constitutional crisis territory, but not without a precedent. One of the early elections was contested and the President was not sworn in until March... methinks the USSC will have to bone up in EARLY High Court Constitutinal History , asssuming they do not want to make the law as they go... and be radicals about it.

All of this is presuposed on the fact that this story may or may not be true. For the record I have always believed Kerry was working on the background, and given one particular statement to Oberman in this article... they are very close to lining them ducks in a row, if not there already... hence why I am willing to go with it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #26
32. Not applicable
This is a simple case of fraud, which can be a criminal or civil violation. And it's being moved in Federal Court in Ohio, which means it's out of Ohio's hands now, for all practical purposes.

The Constitution doesn't speak at all to the impending scenario. That's why this is so exciting (especially for Old Lefty Lawyers), because we're about to see history being made.

This is so reminiscent of the Watergate matter. The question of executive privilege had to defined by the Supreme Court then as it had never been before. It was amazing for me, a law student in Washington, to be there, and to hear the decision being read.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #32
43. I'm not a lawyer
but it truly depends

If this was fraud at the State level and nobody can prove WH involvement, well then Blackwell may rot in state Jail for interfereing in a Fed Election.

If they can prove WH involvement it will rise to High Crimes, just as Watergate was rising to that level. Executive Privilidge was part of it, but to the Bill of Impeachment, well it really never got there (then again we never got to see it, his party asked him to resign)

We are entering uncharted territory as this may involve the RICO Standard with a SEATING president.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #43
60. Uh ..................................... no
First, there's the matter of fraud - as I said, it's both a criminal and civil offense, so the idea of anyone going to jail about fraud is problematic.

It's completely unnecessary to prove White House involvement. All that needs to be proven is fraud.

It's that simple.

As for the High Crimes, well, you're trying to read something into a phrase that's completely inapplicable here. And, as for RICO, all I can recommend is that you get back to your law casebooks and study harder.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #60
69. Lets play a game of what if
What if Blackwell rigged the election all on his own? If I understand this correctly, this is a violation of the 1965 law... and it is fraud. IT goes into the territory of who woudl get hurt?

Now lets expand this... what if Blackwell's actions were part of a wide spreaad conspiracy (taht can be proven) to steal the election for the Resident? This conspiracy includes all the way to the President who CANNOT be prosecuted... since he is in office. Only way to deal with it is impeachment.


Now correct me if I am wrong but the US Constitution plans for these situations only under High Crimes and Misdemeanors (It is NOT specifiic into what they have to be, hence why Clinton was legally impeached). But after the house rules the Senate has to convict (why Clinton kept his job, he was found not guilty)

Now usually a conspiracy of this maginture does involve Rico, even though Rico is usually used against yoru average mob family, or drug dealers...

Regardless this will send the country into a very nice crisis... and a fight behind the scenes for power not seen in the history of this country.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #69
81. There's something that's really hard to deal with
And that's people who try to practice law without a license.

I could explain to you why your concern with Blackwell is irrelevant to the matter at hand - that of election fraud - but that would involve more effort than I care to make. Plus, at this point, I'd have to send you a bill.

You're wrong.

Naw, the crisis was the election and the shame of it. I believe our country is so strong, and so many people supported John Kerry, that it will be a celebration of what it means to be an American.

You've got to go and read up on the legal history of "conspiracy," and then you've got to go and read the legislative history of the RICO statute.

And I won't send you a bill.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #81
87. Then I say the same for those whi practice history
without a licence.

Thank you for your time...

Or lack off...

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
femme.democratique Donating Member (969 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #60
152. There was a RICO suit filed naming Bush re: 9/11 coverup
Eliot Spitzer has this as well as other cases that he is reviewing. So, I guess RICO only applies under which circumstances? Can you elaborate?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #13
29. You're complicating the scenario, I think
It's not even going to get to Congress if the vote fraud allegations can be established in Ohio. It's going to freeze up the whole Electoral College, and that will keep the election from being over. If the election isn't over, and Ohio's votes are subject to judicial scrutiny, there can be no inauguration.

There is no applicable regulation, case law, black letter law, or common law that would back up a partial vote by the Electoral College - i.e., without Ohio's votes - as being legitimate in terms of electing a President.

Hang up Ohio, you hang up the entire process.

That's what I meant by "we're going to see history being made."

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
buzzard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #29
48. Can the Ohio electoral votes not be thrown out as invalid but still leave
* as the winner of the rest of the electorate votes. I'm not familiar with your laws regarding this.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #48
62. No
That's just my opinion, though, because the matter's never before arisen.

That sort of Balkanization would never fly in these "United" States. The Constitution calls for "electors," not "some of the electors" or "a bunch of electors" or "most of the electors."

If fraud is proven and declared in Ohio, we're in territory lawyers call "first impression." That means, it's never been seen before.

And that's really exciting.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ozymandius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 07:59 AM
Response to Reply #62
123. Might a quorum of electors apply here? n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #48
187. If fraud is provable,
and the District Court expedites the matter while preserving the ballots, then that's the first step in invalidating the Ohio popular vote.

At that point, since it's never happened before, anything is possible, but I would venture the theory that the Ohio electoral votes would also be declared invalid, since the would no longer be representative of the popular vote.

Look, it's also entirely possible, isn't it, that a recount could take place and Fuckface could win?

I hate myself right now for having had to write that last sentence ................
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
khz Donating Member (16 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 05:50 AM
Response to Reply #48
209. With Ohio out of the picture, Kerry has the lead. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bush_is_wacko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #29
64. I agree with you
that it calls the entire election into question, but I still think there are powerful forces at work that we don't know about. I don't think this compares to Watergate. We are talking MASSIVE deception of the entire United States of America to put a "patsy" in the highest office of the nation. Whether they want to say the words or not it is a CONSPIRACY of a magnitude most of us could never have believed possible. The fact that the father of the man we are discussing was involved so heavily in our most powerful intelligence agency for so many years and all the connections I'm seeing to past "conspiracy theories" is quite frightening to someone who dismissed them all for most of my life. I don't think the investigating is going to stop at election fraud. I don't think that will be enough to clean THIS house. It is rather exciting, but also a little worrisome, given the fact most of our troops are in another country right now fighting an illegal war that this "patsy" started during his illegitimate Presidency!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-05 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #29
210. You're wrong under the Constitution in that scenario
then neither candidate will have achieved a majority of the electoral votes which means on January sixth the House of Representatives votes for the President with the delegation from each state having a single vote and the Senate votes for the Vice President with each Senator having one vote.

So at best, Bush wins by an even bigger margin in the Congress than he does in the electoral college.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
caledesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #2
23. Excellent explanation Faye! nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #2
25. Concession speech
It was nothing more than a graceful act, with absolutely NO legal value.

It was just a red herring for Fuckface, that's all. And a superb one, at that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 12:15 AM
Response to Original message
5. This is going absolutely nowhere
I can promise all of you that this will go absolutely nowhere.

The Baby Bush will be re-coronated on January 20th.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. maybe
maybe not.

I've seen a lot of unbelievable things happen lately. I'm open.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #5
17. Au contraire mon am
if this news is legit it is going in one direction, and one direction ONLY... Constitutional Crisis Territory... the kind that will make Nixon and Watergate look like baby steps.

IF a Senator stands with the Black Caucus... they have to open hearings, they HAVE TO.

Now I wonder who will be that senator... and given what Conyers said about even Pugs agreeing with him... there are multiple scnearios of where this may be heading... and each one of them is ugglier than the previous one... and some of them even end up in open civil war... the shooting kind.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
George W. Hayduke Donating Member (108 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #17
33. yep
Edited on Sun Dec-26-04 12:49 AM by George W. Hayduke
and that 'Constitutional Crisis Territory' isn't exactly terra firma.
This relatively young country hasn't yet had to deal with election fraud yet (that i know of) and the polarized political tension seems to have reached new levels.

And that's not even going into an uncovered coup d'etat.

<there are multiple scenarios of where this may be heading... and each one of them is ugglier than the previous one... and some of them even end up in open civil war... >

I've been wondering why there havn't been more discussions about this. Many in here are just content to daydream that if election fraud is proven and/or whistleblowers substantiated that Kerry will just waltz right into office (in place of Fuckface's inaugeration, no less) and we'll all have a happy ending.

Political power struggles of this magnitude don't usually end peacefully...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #33
36. Clearly,
you haven't been reading my posts that began on November 3.

There's a wealth of information around here about the unfolding scenario, and there have been lots of discussion about just this matter.

I never thought it would be anything but a huge battle. History isn't made by tiny efforts, but by gargantuan conflicts, and this would certainly qualify.

I'm an old size queen - only big fights interest me. Only big men with big minds and big hearts and big dreams interest me.

This is why Fuckface only interests me in terms of my waving to Air Force One as it carries him the hell out of my 'hood.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BlueTarheel Donating Member (90 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #36
71. OLL
Your posts are great- thanks for explaining the legalities so clearly. I truly hope you're right.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #33
39. Political power struggles of this magnitude don't usually end peacefully..
That is because most people are NOT students of history. What we have is a power strugle behind the scenes that is titanic in nature. We have not seen anything like this in US History, but we have seen plenty of them across the sea of years.

The closest paralel is the rise of Caesar and his murder at the steps of the Senate.

We are in many respects the new Rome, and I fear that this Republic may go the same way, partly becuase the people are ignorant of history.

OF course we can compare it ot the Medici and the 16th century, for whom the PRince was written.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #39
42. Actually........
.......it's very similar to how the Watergate matter unfolded. The systematic compiling of the evidence, the slow and steady investigations.

And, let's not forget that our Constitution has already shown that we can endure serious political/legal battles and still stand.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #42
52. IT is similar in the matter Watergate
unfolded on the surface. This is the kind of struggle this country has not faced. The closest it ever came to it was truly the Civil War.

That was also a crisis, that in many ways dwarfed Watergate. The Constiotution survived both cases and in both cases it faced some reform.

After this one, it will need yet another set of revisiions to avoid this from ever happening again... and I may add, we will need to ensure the independence of the Fourth Estate.

By the way, insofar as the corporations are concerned we have been here before, the 1870s and 1880s... but we have NEVER faced a single family with such dreams of power, that made them almost royal in nature, and willing to break every rule olf the game. John Adamns, like George Bush, truly did not believe in Democracy, but 1800 waws not rigged.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MandateThis Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 04:37 AM
Response to Reply #42
213. Right, the slow and sysematic gathering of evidence
Imagine how much flack John Kerry would've gotten if he'd stood up every day since the election? Even some liberals would've got sick of him and wanted to him bow out gracefully. But now we knows how much support he has from all of us to keep the fight going. We give the power to the government, bu$h wants us to get that. Maybe we should start a petition to prove we are the MAJORITY? What's better? One for non-evangelicas or one for kerry voters??? Somebody send it to me if it gets going. (mariannedarling1@aol.com ) I keep thinking of all the investigative work John Kerry did when he uncovered the Iran Contra crap, etc. That didn't happen over night. I imagine the bushie$ hate him as much as the reagans must have hated him.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
George W. Hayduke Donating Member (108 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #39
51. I just have visions
Edited on Sun Dec-26-04 01:07 AM by George W. Hayduke
that if any of this gets close enough to usurp the regime, there will be a (another?) manufactured crisis and it won't be a 'constitutional' one, either (ie: something that initiates martial law or worse).

These people aren't just going to roll over.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #51
55. If Kerry files that motion in Federal Court,
this matter takes on a life of itself, and no external crisis, manufactured or not, will stop the law from going forth.

It is inexorable, and it will not be held up by anything.

That's why we lawyers are so afraid of the very master we serve. It is relentless.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MajorFlaw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 04:15 AM
Response to Reply #55
115. I don't mean to rain on your parade, but where is the game plan.
Right now it seems that we are dependent on either a Federal or Ohio State judge to enjoin either the seating of electors or the Congress from acting. That would be a long shot, even if we controlled Congress or the courts. Saying that something is going to happen is nice, but I would prefer a basic outline of what you are expecting to happen. Not precise dates and facts, but 1) Who is going to intervene and stop the process of selecting shrub and 2) How, procedurally, Kerry is going to leapfrog over shrub and take the office he was elected to. There seems to be the assumption that, if Kerry just participates in the litigation and agrees to join Conyers in challenging the results, all will be fine. Barring a mutiny by a judge, the Rethug Congress or the actual electors, I don't see how this is going to happen. I wish I did.

No need to send me a bill OLL, I've been practicing for about 20 years :-)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
femme.democratique Donating Member (969 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #115
155. The key is media exposure...
I think our fave journalist Keith Olbermann explained it pretty well, that the media likes stories that have a goal of sorts, that will have some finite impact. Until now this has not had much teeth in the context of what gets TV ratings. Though Kerry MAY not take office on the date when he rightfully should, this whole debacle needs to be framed in a comprehensive way that will actually move towards a "goal" of removing Bush.

With "TortureGate", "PlameGate", "IraqGate", "9/11Gate" (I believe Spitzer will take this on), and "VoterGate" stories coming to maturity around the same time, I think over time the media will begin to tie it all together, though of course this is a self-serving exercise to further line their pockets. There is a pivot point where their forced corporate allegiance to Bush will be mitigated by the weight of these stories. The internets (hehehe) will also play a big part in this. Bush will theoretically take office, but barring another terrorist attack on US soil (a big variable here), his days are numbered. The Repukes have been way too sloppy and their total control has not yet been fully solidified.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #115
182. This is a Professional Courtesy, then?
OK, no bill.

I've written a basic outline of what I hope would happen far too many times on this board to have any desire to write it out again.

But, to address your issues:

1. I am not sure what you mean by the question, since the electors have already met - December 13 - and cast their votes. So, no one's going to intervene to stop the electors from voting.

But, what I would envision happening is the fraud issue being addressed, and in an expedited manner, in Ohio; should a finding of fraud be found in a timely fashion, I say there's a sound legal argument to be made that votes the electors had already cast on 12/13 were invalid.

If that were to happen, the whole electoral college process is frozen. And then, that's when the most interesting part of this whole scenario would begin.

2. I have no idea what the question means. "... leapfrog over Bush..."? I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you mean here.

You gotta have faith, and be adventurous in your thinking. Imagine what might happen within the confines of this game, and then imagine the possibilities beyond.

Twenty years, huh? Congratulations.

No bill will be sent - professional courtesy. ;)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MajorFlaw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-04 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #182
205. I appreciate the professional courtesy OLL, and will use this opportunity
(hopefully)to explain myself better.

"what I would envision happening is the fraud issue being addressed, and in an expedited manner, in Ohio"

In other words, you are counting on an independent state or Federal judge stepping in and stopping the final certification of shrub's "victory". Unless you know the judge who is going to do this personally, I wouldn't hold my breath. Even if we find a friendly judge, one who is willing to risk his/her career on this, I would expect any order signed at the trial level to be quickly taken up and vacated.

"leapfrog over Bush..."? I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you mean here"

Right now, shrub may not have won but he has the appearance of a winner. If nothing dramatic happens before 1/20, shrub will be inaugurated again. It is one thing to speak of investigations, recounts and litigation; it is quite another to explain how, with less than a month to go, Kerry will "jump the line" and replace shrub as the subject of the inauguration. I am not interested in academic or moral victories, I'm sure that the what and the how of the election theft will be publicly known within two years, but that isn't good enough. I want shrub to go away now and I want Kerry to replace him. I'll even give JK my broom, although a shovel would be more appropriate.

"You gotta have faith, and be adventurous in your thinking."

I can do that too, but I am trying to think like a lawyer. It is one thing to try to shake things up in the hope that something good will happen; it is another to say that you expect litigation, a challenge by a Congress critter and a Senator or anything else to result in the inauguration of John Kerry on 1/20. While faith is a good thing, as a lawyer I only want to have and give realistic expectations.


"Imagine what might happen within the confines of this game, and then imagine the possibilities beyond."

I'm not sure what you mean by this. I can easily imagine a friendly judge or a friendly Congress stepping up to the plate and making President Kerry a reality. Unfortunately we don't have a friendly Congress, and it is probably too much to expect a judge to stick his/her neck out. Imagination is great, but it isn't going to send shrub back to Crawford unless you are considering possibilities that have eluded me. Do tell.

"Twenty years, huh? Congratulations."

Thanks, but I'm not sure that congratulations are in order. To borrow from Robert Benchley, by the time I figured out that I wasn't any good at it, I was making too much money to stop :-)


"No bill will be sent - professional courtesy. ;)"

Always appreciated, I owe you one.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #205
207. It's all theoretical, of course
But, yeah, I'm betting on there being another "Maximum John" (are you old enough to remember him?) in the Federal court system who will take on the fraud issue. Of course, if that happens, someone's going to try to get it vacated, but the battle will have been drawn at that point.

As for Kerry "jumping the line," you didn't read that in any of my posts, because I've never taken it that far. My theory has gone only to the matter of the fraud in the Ohio voting, and the possibility of that invalidating the Ohio electoral votes. After that, we're talking about a case of first impression, and history being made.

That's my favorite part, by the way. I was a litigator for almost thirty years.

As for expecting a Congressional challenge, no, I've not gone to that, either, although I'd love to see it happen this time. In 2001, Al Gore asked people not to do it, which was just another of his series of bad choices, like not asking for an entire state recount in Florida.

I don't see Congress getting involved, though. I see as far as Ohio right now, and, after that, I'll come up with the next stage of my theory, if we're lucky.

It's good to think like a lawyer, just like they taught us. But, I've never let that confine my strategy, and I've had my greatest successes in the matters where I went all the way out on the last limb, and risked absolute and total failure if the hunch didn't pan out. Maybe I was lucky, or maybe there are more ways to see things than through the lawyer lens, which I always found just a little too confining.

Any surprise that I'm a published novelist now? Out there, Major. We gotta stay out there, as far as we can go without doing irreparable harm. That's my philosophy, anyway.

One step at a time, my brother, as we keep the faith.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MajorFlaw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 05:06 AM
Response to Reply #207
208. Good answer, OLL, after all we are on the same team.
"I'm betting on there being another "Maximum John" (are you old enough to remember him?) in the Federal court system who will take on the fraud issue."

I wouldn't count on it. I have found a real absence of the political and moral courage necessary for a judge to make this case his/her own. I could name more than a dozen Federal judges who would be ideal, if they weren't deceased. The new crop has an almost paranoid aversion to taking a controversial stand. Do you know anything about the judge(s) handling the fraud and the recount cases.

"After that, we're talking about a case of first impression, and history being made."

Yes, but that history will be made by the same people who brought you shrub's first term. I'm trying to find something to hang my hat on and it isn't readily available. We need a white knight, but it appears that chivalry is dead.

"I see as far as Ohio right now, and, after that, I'll come up with the next stage of my theory, if we're lucky."

Ohio is where the action is; I can't see a Congressional challenge getting off the ground unless the Green/Libertarian/Kerry team is able to uncover some damaging stuff through discovery. My question is: If they do find fraud or an equal protection violation, will it make a difference. Obviously, the shrub team will delay as much as possible and it will take a very pissed off judge to force them to comply. I'm not sure it is even possible to actually force them to comply. Would any judge be willing to hold shrub in contempt. The facts will come out, sooner or later, but that's for historians, not lawyers.

"It's good to think like a lawyer, just like they taught us. But, I've never let that confine my strategy"

Sometimes a risky or unusual strategy is all you've got, but it's important that you don't bullshit yourself about your prospects. I'm not suggesting that anyone stop fighting, I would rather that the Kerry team had challenged and investigated every state that we "lost", starting on 11/3. I was ready to go to OH or FL or wherever necessary and participate in a full scale legal challenge, but the call never came. I only have support and encouragement for those who are trying, and if called, I'll report for duty as promised.

"Any surprise that I'm a published novelist now?"
No, not really. I've found that the best lawyers are people who have many interests and talents beyond being a "lawyer bot". I am a lot of things before I am a lawyer; my license, training and experience simply allows me to do some things that wouldn't otherwise be possible.

"Out there, Major. We gotta stay out there, as far as we can go without doing irreparable harm. That's my philosophy, anyway."

100% agreed. Nothing gets my blood circulating better than an opportunity to shake up the system. I live for those days.

"One step at a time, my brother, as we keep the faith."

I'm with you until the last dog dies. I've never given up in my life and have no intention of doing so now. I'm just trying to keep it real. :-)



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NJCher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #55
133. The System
I appreciate what you are saying and I've been saying something similar. I'm not an attorney but I've used the court system extensively over the past 25 years. It's given me an understanding of our system. Once the system is engaged, it continues to engage, like a gear. And it keeps going and going and going. As you say, "relentless."

That's why, I think, the RW is so fond of getting a case dismissed--best to avoid engaging the system.

They've done pretty well with gaming it, just in case, however.

What bushco has to take on is a system that has evolved and operated for a couple hundred years. Will the system serve its people or will it serve the coup? Could go either way, as our legal system is just as corrupt as the other parts of our government.


Cher
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #133
184. Just keep one word in your head
"Watergate."

The most excellent example of the system working in my lifetime, I think.

And keep hope in your heart.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #184
185. Thanks oldleftie
Still sad at the moment but keeping hope alive.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TexasChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #55
136. Whew...(takes a deep breath). Thank God that Chimp cannot declare
Martial Law and stop this.

Plus, another DUer told me that if the Chimp declares Martial Law, he cannot declare it indefinitely, which is what I always thought he could do. Now, couple this with OldLeftie's comments, and I feel a whole deal better about this.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Oversea Visitor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #51
57. No they wont
I beleive what the US face is bigger than this election problems
The issue is much bigger hence one need to look at it carfully and look for the best path to take...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #57
74. Exactly and who but Kerry is fully aware of the magnitude of the
the problems that the BFEE has created for our nation. He knows all too well that the evidence has to be solid and monsterous to bring them down once and for all. He married the widow of John Heinz, the "moderate" repug that was considered "the peace maker" in the party who was also heavily involved in the BCCI investigation. Kerry himself was so involved in the BCCI investigation that he personally is aware of the treachery and the sliminess of the "family". He has not gone off half cocked, he has prepared and he has to be prepared, he knows he has one shot to take them down.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #51
58. Nuke over Huston?
I kid you not that is one rumor that a suposed agent of the Bundeswher has put out... I did put it under the tin foil hat moment, when I got the email... (my brother in law found it as one of those sites)

I was just thinking to myself... if this is on this site and making the rounds of the web, there goes OpSec...

So scream it from the roof tops...

;-)

Usually you do not go ahead when your OpSec has been compromised...

That said I had the strangest dream last night and no it was not people putting an end to war, rather the end of our civilization... and the beggining of history all over again. I even saw people way in the future wondering how ancient people could have built our greatest monuments? I had this image of history all over again.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SlowDownFast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-04 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #58
192. saw that today...
the original website is now shut down for 'some' reason (where's that damn tinfoil, i didn't use it all up on the last hat, did i???).

but more discussion and exerpts of it are here:

http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com /

guess we'll find out soon enough if there's anything to it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
vlad Donating Member (62 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #51
218. Martial Law
Take into account the vast group of NRA and Fundamentalists that will fight if martial law is declared. They are constantly preparing themselves for the government to declare martial law. They're taught to be ready for that very young, and they're not going to say "well, we had to declare martial law"... They're going to be super- mad that they believed in him on top of that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Woo Donating Member (181 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 02:24 AM
Response to Reply #39
103. Nadinbrzezinski, I do believe...
Is correct...

Before I moved back to the states from Australia a week before the US hit Iraq... I sat down with my downstairs neighbor for tea and a chat -- A worldly and well read gent who was dying of throat cancer and his shelves were filled with first editions of every 'must have' book you could imagine --

He laid it out for me, disgruntled with Australia's involvement in this war and what really was the deal with America-- I've watched it unfold pretty much before my eyes... the parallels to the Roman Empire are in a place -- I won't go into the rest of the scenario, just because for some reason writing it might make it come true... but what I've seen in the last couple of years, hell, the last few weeks since the election is scary beyond all belief -- and it has striking parallels to Rome, hopefully we will not go the same way.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 02:49 AM
Response to Reply #103
110. Many years ago I
read The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire by Gibbon. It was for a history class, on the Methodology of History. I find it utterly ironic that this is also one of the favorites of Paul L Wolfowitz and of some other scions of the Neo Con Movement. They see it as a plan, I see it as a warning.

And just like Rome, we now have the circuses ready (live Teevee), and just like Rome we may soon have the bread ready (faith based innitiatives... which like the rich of Rome will feed the poor)

We have an increasintly ingnorant population, of its own history and traditiions, and right now we are witnesing the last gasp of the Republic... ironic, for Rome's Republic did not last beyond a hundred years and most of the well to do in Rome knew that it was a passing fad. The people, after all, were too busy to notice its passing.

I do suspect though that Wolfowitz and the rest of the gang have misread Gibbon, for the people are not as ignorant or as asleep as the people of Rome were. We may yet rise to the challenge and restore that republic. Your friend, may he rest in peace, may have mentioned to you the old Metaphysical Societies were our founding fathers got their feet wet in Democratic government, or the Freemason Societies, where again Democracy was first practiced. We may have to go back to those societies to once again learn what we have forgotten. I trust we may turn before we have to go underground to relearn this, under the eyes of Imperial Rome.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Oversea Visitor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #33
46. Good for you
" Political power struggles of this magnitude dont usually end peacefully"
Sadly this is true.... hence like I say in my post 30 one need to look at the healing process too....
Too much anger...bitterness... frustration and I can understand why
I dont think the court here is the judge but the people are one way or another the people will end up the decider....
Like I say the future of both parties are at stake and I pray that for once the elected representaive understand the need to put aside the 2 party concept and move step up to represent the people by defending the concept of a true and fair election process that reflect the view of the people.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
elizm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #33
125. I have to jump in here as well...
If you lived in a red state (as I do) you would not underestimate how Republican voters would react. I think John Kerry is fully aware of the consequences that would unfold....and yet knows the consequences on NOT acting as well. This is all pretty scary.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #125
177. Gotta agree here.
Edited on Sun Dec-26-04 08:35 PM by Ladyhawk
I know Republicans. They are a scary, scary lot. Remember, it was the ancestors of these conservatives that started the first Civil War. There will probably be a second if fraud is proven and Kerry is sworn in.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ginnyinWI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #17
89. I think that each senator will have to decide
whether to stay loyal and go down with the ship, or cut their losses and disown him. I think many would rather disown him and know maybe more than most what a sham president he is.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #5
20. Yes, that's entirely possible
But, in legal terms, there is an eternity between now and January 20, 2005.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #5
22. Unfortunately you are absolutely correct
kerry blew every opportunity...


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #5
47. And who died and made you the world's foremost authority?
:puke:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
New Earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #47
63. hahah w00t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #5
82. How much will you bet on this?
Because I think you are quite wrong.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #82
160. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #82
168. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #5
167. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Darkhawk32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 12:21 AM
Response to Original message
8. I'd like to remind Breakfornews.com.....
That you are going "all in" on these reports. If this doesn't pan out, you're going to look pretty foolish, so to speak and that your reputation at this forum may be permenantly damaged. I just wanted to remind you of that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
New Earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. either that
Edited on Sun Dec-26-04 12:24 AM by Faye
or he's trying to us all get excited so he can try to make us look like fools later IF it doesn't all pan out. :eyes:

Mr. Dunne is rather seemingly fickle to me. :) :D
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ihelpu2see Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #10
181. My concern is over the length of time it has taken to reach
Edited on Sun Dec-26-04 10:41 PM by ihelpu2see
this point and if the true evidence is gone.... meaning all emails erased all hard drives re-indexed, which is more than just erasing it.... the trail may be to cold
:( :-(
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-04 02:48 AM
Response to Reply #181
203. How many minutes were missing from the Nixon tapes???
As I recall, that seemed to be evidence itself. :smoke:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #8
34. What was THAT?
"... reputation on this forum may be permanently damaged"?????????????

Damaged by having ideas and hopes and expressing them?

Go fuck yourself.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Darkhawk32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #34
129. Go fuck myself??
Do you not think I'm hoping and praying that this happens?

I'm trying to be a little pragmatic here... going from apparent uninvolvement to quickly unconceding is a stretch.

Do I think that he could? Sure he could. Am I sure? No, I'm not. Nobody can be right now.

We just need to be careful is all.

There's no need for the nasty responses at all.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #8
53. And I am so sure he is worried about what you think of him!
phhhhhhhhhhhhhhhbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbttttttttttttttt! :silly:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
New Earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #53
61. lollll
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Darkhawk32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #53
128. Wow, can't believe I got a response like that.........
Kerry going from apparent uninvolvement to unconceding is quite a jump.

I'm just hoping he has facts that he's sitting on that would justify that claim.

I hope the claim is true, believe me, but I don't want an independent news source overstepping a bit and getting discredited.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 12:26 AM
Response to Original message
14. so did john kerry call you on the phone and tell you this personally or
is too much eggnog :-)

Msongs
www.msongs.com/political-shirts.htm
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 12:29 AM
Response to Original message
19. i don't believe it
after the way he ran his campaign, no way

We knew about the potential for problems for over a year before the elections, and NOT ONE democrat did anything about it

If kerry was going to do something he should have done something when the fire was hot...


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #19
24. There was no fire until ............
.............. there was admissible evidence of vote fraud.

So, of necessity, Kerry had to wait until the evidence was dug up and evaluated. How can you contest something when you don't know what you're up against?

Kerry's not given away anything, simply by staying in the background, showing up just often enough, at the right intervals, leaving messages that, as I've mentioned, were loaded with clues.

His "concession" speech was the first big clue, and anyone who listened carefully to that knew that he was just beginning, that nothing was over. It was a great way to lull the Fuckface people into thinking he had conceded and was going away.

Let me put it this way, and maybe you'll see why your assumptions are so erroneous:

Say you've been charged with first-degree homicide. You're in a capital state, which means you're facing a death penalty.

You retain me as your attorney.

Now, would you think it would be the smartest strategy in the world if I were to go out onto the courthouse steps and systematically detail for the press precisely how I planned to conduct your defense?

I rest my case.

Kerry's done everything perfectly. I mean, I cannot tell you how fucking perfect this whole thing has been, from a legal angle. It's a work of art.

The fire hasn't even been lit yet, my friend.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Beyond Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #24
44. just in case..
..keeping fingers crossed that you are right!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #44
68. Welcome, Beyond
Keep them crossed, and don't stop believing.

:hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Beyond Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 02:42 AM
Response to Reply #68
109. Thanks.for the welcome
No matter which way this turns out, when all is said and done our focus should be on the mid-term elections coming up in '06. With the Repubs still controlling both houses of Congress it will be hard to undo the harm already forced upon this great nation, not to mention moving the country back on the right track to a free democracy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Grown2Hate Donating Member (833 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 04:27 AM
Response to Reply #68
116. Great.... THANKS....
Now I'll have that damn Journey song stuck in my head all night! 'Preciate it! ;)

BTW... I DO BELIEVE!!! Now, go out there, kick some BushCo ass, and claim the Presidency, John!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 02:36 AM
Response to Reply #24
107. Old Lefty Lawyer....
I really like the way you think. :-)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bear425 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #24
180. I agree that his messages are loaded with clues...
I can't remember where he said it - maybe in the debates - but he said that the first thing he will accomplish as President is to send legislation to congress regarding healthcare for children. In his email to his faithful, he asks us to sign a petition for just that. Therefore, he's kept his first promise as President!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pacalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-04 02:47 AM
Response to Reply #24
202. You've expressed so beautifully throughout this thread
what I've believed about Kerry all along, minus the legal expertise. :)

It's so good to hear your thoughts on this.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sperk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
21. If nothing else......the Anti-Christ will KNOW that WE know he stole it!
n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BigBearJohn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #21
96. Holy Shit
I could not have put it any better myself.
You hit the nail on the head. Wow.
I think I love you. SUCCINCTLY said. BAM!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 12:38 AM
Response to Original message
28. Take to the streets and make some noise
posters on every freeway over crossing..AMERICA WAS ROBBED

New sloagen of the day

IT'S AMERICA STUPID....NOT RUSSIA
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
oscar111 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #28
56. NEW ELECTIONS NOW is my favorite meme
as to the re below, ..

wont be the end of the GOP. wish it were so, but racism will continue to draw votes for it. Huge numbers who dont admit it ,but are racists.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Oversea Visitor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 12:41 AM
Response to Original message
30. Its a tough road
and will get tougher
If fraud is proven is will means the end of the republican party
Hence one has to walk with care here
On the other hand if nothing is done it will means the end of the democrats
Either way the stake is high very high
A battle is unavoidable
The part the people play will determine the outcome...
I can see the reason for the Democrats Leaders to move slowly but surely...... it is unpleasant but it is still not too late

I think the issue of a fair and true election process need to be the utmost important
I also see a lot of division... the self bashing of the people against one another cause of polarisation into camps of etc
red/blue, liberals/ conservative etc, christain religion etc all this should be set aside so that the process of a true and fair election can be acheive
I sincerely beleive will all my heart that there need to be a change
and that change would be most successful if Democrats and Republicans can work together. Unless one shed the division of being branded one camp or another and working together for a common good I see ahead in the future a very divided US. Hence equally one need to look at the healing process while all move towards the goal of an election that is truelly a reflection of the will of the people.
I have no doubts whatsoever that this election 2004 can pass the test of a true and fair veiw and that one can call it reflective cause of the many weakness and opportunities for fraud to occured.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #30
59. It doesn't necessarily mean the end of the repugs if ...
they join in the call for investigation and prosecution. It WILL mean the end of the neo-cons and the fundie movement, a wing of the repugs that sickens most "true" members of the GOP. We are not the only ones that hate the weed that would be king and his puppet masters and minions. If the fraud is as bad as we perceive, there will be many who will give up the weed and his merlin as sacrificial lambs to save their party and our nation.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Oversea Visitor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #59
77. I agreed
Hence I say it would be most successful if both party work together
Again we can only watch the decision is their.
If they stand by party line then all hell break lose.
Cause when party become more important that representing the people the party is dead.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Debbie13 Donating Member (176 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #59
135. Did you ever see the REPUBLICANS FOR KERRY website?
Edited on Sun Dec-26-04 11:20 AM by Debbie13
http://www.republicansforkerry04.org /

Lots of Republicans must have known about B**s*h

Possibly they could be tapped in the fight to bring democracy back to the U.S.
??
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MandateThis Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 04:51 AM
Response to Reply #135
215. thoughtful republicans...i love their sight
Just goes to show what someone with a brain who takes the time to use it, can come up with! Check it out, except for the fundie who wants to dominate our country, they sound just like us! I wrote their site last week but it looks like they are all gone....hopefully to a vote fraud site.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 12:52 AM
Response to Original message
35. Aaahhh..., I have a question.
Didn't the Electoral Collage already meet and cast their votes? Like on December 13, 2004? And since the Electoral Collage elects the President and not the popular vote, nothing anyone can do to stop the process now.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #35
40. Good question.
Yes, they did, on December 13, and now those votes are in a sealed envelope that is to be opened by the President of the Senate and read to Congress on January 6, 2005.

However, there is absolutely nothing that defines that gesture as the finalization of the election process, and if the votes of one state - Ohio - are shown to be invalid because of fraud, the Electoral College's votes - all of them - are put on hold, as is the entire election process.

That's why this Ohio challenge is so timely, with the evidence compiled and, presumably, admissible. Kerry's plan to ask for expedition and preservation is the smartest legal move imaginable. And, in Federal Court, where he has the necessary standing - a showing of irreparable harm - he is out of the grasp of the Ohio state court system.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
many a good man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #40
66. Check that
I think the electoral votes are presented to the President of the Senate one state at a time. The state will deliver their electors according to each state's rules, not the Federal government's. Ohio could choose NOT to deliver their votes on Jan 6. They could divide them up. They could do whatever they want.

One Sen and one Rep could contest the ballots submitted by any state. The House and Senate would vote to sustain or reject the challenge. It would probably be an up-down vote. They could vote not to accept Ohio's ballots which would lead to no candidate having the required majority of electoral votes.

The presidential election would then be thrown to the House of Representatives. The delegation from each state would then cast one vote for one of three highest candidates for President. The victor requires a clear majority to win. They would then select the Vice President in the same manner.

Republicans control the House so the outcome would be no surprise. No Constitutional crisis. Just America working the way it was designed.

Fraud discovered in one county in one state will not engender a constitutional crisis either. It must be found to be widespread or a clear smoking gun in the Oval Office. The battle will then be equal part constitutional and equal part public opinion...

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #66
76. Ohio is a state that commits all its votes
Their electors are required by law to commit their votes to the candidate with the most votes, and, in this case, it would be Bush. Forty-eight states are winner-take-all, and Nebraska and Maine are proportional. Not Ohio.

The Ohio electors have none of the choices you listed in your first paragraph.

But, if fraud can be proven in Federal Court, the election won't get anywhere near Congress, because it will not be over.

States determine how their electors vote. The electors cannot "do whatever they want."

And, if one state's votes are found to have been tainted, the whole process is thrown into a kind of disarray never before experienced in the United States, so we get taken on an exciting legal and historical ride.

This won't be a Constitutional crisis. That's a vast misapprehension. This is simply a legal theory right now, since nothing's been filed by Kerry in Federal court. But, if that does happen, then it's a legal matter, a civil matter, with possible criminal ramifications later on, not a Constitutional one.

This one's not gonna get NEAR the Congress, that's my guess.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ugnmoose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #76
171. Hey Old Lefty - care to take this one on?
The Greens have been making much noise about invoking article 2 of the 14th amendment. Would you care to comment on the viability of this process? Once again I know we are in virgin territory here, however, it appears to me that the Constitution does have within it some severe penalties to states who disenfranchise their voters.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-04 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #171
193. I just went and read Article 2, and
I haven't the slightest idea of what the Greens might be up to.

Just the idea of trying to make a Constitutional fight out of a voter fraud matter makes my head hurt, it's so dumb.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Oversea Visitor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #66
83. I think
that this time it will be different, maybe apresentation by all democrats to call for a revote based on the finding that this election cannot be taken as a true and fair view of the people.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gumby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #40
67. More questions
What I took from the Florida Lege in 2000 was that electors aren't conditional to the vote of the people, and electors can be chosen by the State Lege. The Repub Lege stated that if the vote count was won by Gore, then the Fla Lege would simply appoint new electors who would vote for Bush.

Further, if a Senator would have stood up with the House to challenge Bush in 2000, then the matter would have gone to the US Congress where they would have chosen Bush.

Even if fraud is proved, couldn't Ohio just throw that batch of electoral votes out and appoint new electors?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #67
78. Electors, by law, must vote for the candidate who ...........
........... won the popular vote. This is not so in Maine and Nebraska, where their electors vote proportionally.

They do not have the prerogative of voting for whomever they choose.

In 2000, no Senator made that stance because VP Gore asked them not to.

No.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
many a good man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #78
93. Unfaithful electors
Edited on Sun Dec-26-04 02:03 AM by TorchesAndPitchforks
The preponderance of opinion among constitutional scholars holds that Electors remain free agents. To my knowledge not a single faithless elector has ever been prosecuted. Most recently in 1988. 26 states have laws requiring the electors remain faithful and 24 do not.

If evidence of fraud arises, there is nothing to prevent the Ohio state legislature from convening an emergency session and changing the way its electors vote. Given the Florida case it could even ignore the protest of the state courts. Under the Constitution, it doesn't have to respect any ruling made by the federal branch regarding its choice of electors. It could also conceivably bargain a compromise with the US House of Representatives that would pave the way for a settlement of the issue.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
many a good man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #67
79. State Legislature still decides
Edited on Sun Dec-26-04 02:05 AM by TorchesAndPitchforks
The Constitution reserves the power to the Legislature of each state to determine its own rules for selecting electors.

Most states have codified this process into law. Florida's argument was that this law could not be interpreted/enforced by the state judiciary. The argument was that this would be imposing on the State Legislature, the only body permitted by the Constitution to determine the voting method.

In the House each state's delegation would vote for president. The winner would get one vote from that state. Whoever gets 51 votes in this way is the next President.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #79
84. This is irrelevant
to the matter of vote fraud in Ohio, which, really, is all that's on the table right now.

But, believe me, there will be no new annointing of different electors in order to get a different result. That kind of statement bespeaks a complete misunderstanding of how the Electoral College works.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
many a good man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #84
98. The Constitution IS relevant
This is the process laid out in the Constitution. These are the rights given to individual electors and state legislatures. Whether or not they choose to avail themselves of these privileges remains to be seen. I rather doubt it will happen but it certainly could.

I would presume that under a swirl of controversy, Congress will be guided by a straight interpretation of the process outlined in the Constitution. Especially since it benefits the party in power. I would also expect them to pay careful attention to the court of public opinion in the process.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 02:24 AM
Response to Reply #98
102. Oh the State and Federal Constittions are relevant here
as well as High Crimes and Misdemeanors depending on where this goes.

I stand by what I have said, we are entering crisis territory... very much so.

We are living the chinese curse, anybody care for some popcorn?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zan_of_Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #84
156. Not so sure there wouldn't be a second slate of electors from Ohio.
At least, that was what one of the attorneys was predicting could happen, way back at one of the early hearings on Ohio -- I think it was Bonifaz. Said that although the Bush slate of Ohio electors might be chosen, a second set of Ohio electors could be chosen after recount/revote that would represent the ACTUAL vote -- then, Congress could choose between electors from Ohio representing the real vote, or electors representing the premature vote at the direction of Blackwell.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #156
183. The electors per se are not the issue
The votes are the issue. Fraud is the issue.

The electors in Ohio are legally bound to vote the way the popular vote dictates, so they're essentially figureheads. It doesn't matter who the electors are. I would argue, though, that the same set of electors would be legally required to remain where they are.

The issue is fraud. That's the all-important first step we have to take without stumbling or getting tripped.

It's patience. It's all about patience, and one step at a time.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bush_is_wacko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #67
94. I think some of us need to go back and read some of the filings and
accusations. Ohio is NOT the only state in question from what I have read.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
many a good man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #94
101. Must come out by Jan 6th
To thwart the official electoral vote on Jan 6th substantial progress must be shown in these states. If the mess in Ohio forces a special Election Commission, then the findings in these states would become relevant. Like LeftyLawyer says, the lawmakers will just have to make up the law as they go...

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TexasChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #40
140. OldLeftie, you got me to thinking about something. What if they throw
out Kerry's case? What if the Repuketard Congress in Ohio refuses to hear the case; that Moyer(sp?) guy refuses to hear it and throws it out? What then? Are we totally screwed?

Or, do you think they won't throw it out? I kind of get that feeling that you think maybe they won't when you say Kerry has the necessary standing in Federal Court. Thanks for your posts! :hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #140
186. Well............
First of all, the "Ohio Congress" doesn't have jurisdiction over the matter if the Kerry motion is filed in Federal District Court. The Federal District Court will have jurisdiction, since it's a Federal matter.

Look, right now we're screwed, right? We're looking at four more years with Fuckface squatting illegally in the White House. How much worse can it be for us?

So, anything that gets us up and moving out of the status quo - like Kerry's filing that motion and letting the District Court deal with it - is, at the very least, a ripple in the waters that have been covering our heads since the election was stolen on November 2, right?

I believe, and you have to believe, too, that the good guys will win this righteous fight.

Thanks for your kind words.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TexasChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #186
189. No, thank you. I'm a Kerry believer. There's been times I have doubted
him after the election, but, this to me, is good news. I just don't want any of the Ohio courts throwing out Kerry's case and I was just afraid that they would do that.

Thanks again for your reply.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kralizec Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #35
41. Incorrect.
Edited on Sun Dec-26-04 12:57 AM by Kralizec
If you remember the 2000 election when the Black Congressional Congress challenged the election, but no Senators pitched in to help?

That it what can stop the process now.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #35
45. If fraud is proven in Ohio, that
Edited on Sun Dec-26-04 01:08 AM by shraby
means that Ohio's Republican electoral votes are no good because they should be Democratic ones.
No, it's not all over. The fat lady is just running through her warm-up scales.

on edit: I think Kerry will be able to show to the country that without a doubt fraud occurred and that Bush did not win the election. He knows it has to be irrefutable or a sizable number of Americans will not believe and he also will have to deal with a negative media. To have a legitimate presidency, there can be no doubts and he knows this. No winning through a technicality like Bush did in 2000, because the media will kill him on it.
If he is making a stand, I believe he has the goods to back it up.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Judged Donating Member (613 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #35
73. Can't Congress use "DNC" Electoral Vote Tabulators on January 6th?
Can't blue states use Blue election machines and tabulators to perpetuate their blue status?

1). Hijack a state's judiciary until it is a blue think tank with a predisposition to reject any red litigation, whether just or unjust.

2). Hijack a state's BoE until it is a blue advocate and enforcement agent that perpetuates anti-red election bias (FAIRNESS) into the charter for this "public office."

3). Paint (by #) a state blue forever, and lock up all of the dissenters (reds) who are just out of control looneys!

4). Apply this methodology to next state, until all 50 states are blue and everyone marches in line to the same beat with fear of a misstep meaning certain political, economic, and social death.

5). Force all other nations to use blue election equipment until the globe is blue, and adamantly denounce any nation that subverts installation and perpetuation of an honest, open, democratic form of government based on honest, fair, and just blue voting machines.

blah
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Placebo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 01:03 AM
Response to Original message
49. I really, Really, REALLY, R E A L L Y , doubt it.
Bush will be Inaugurated on January 20, 2005. Sad but true.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kralizec Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #49
54. I disagree. The awakening is about to happen. I've been waiting a long
time for this!

Kerry won. He wasn't my #1 pick, but I'll get on the streets for him, along with a lot of others ready to do the same thing. I'm tired of being pushed around by fakes.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
oscar111 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #54
65. Anyone see NEW ELECTIONS as a step, say after a Senator challenges the EC
Edited on Sun Dec-26-04 01:19 AM by oscar111
votes in that envelope?

Could new elections be called instead of some vote by the House and Senate?

In 1877, a "Compromise' was put in writing... could not NEW ELECTIONS be part of this era's "Compromise'?

Using Canadian Model.. paper ballots hand counted... on election night, and then secured by lock as evidence if needed later.

In clear plastic vote boxes, piled one on another if another box needed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bush_is_wacko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #65
95. How do you vote for a candidate that is under investigation for fraud?
Again, I'm thinking they must be running these scenarios back and forth. If we re-vote and Bush is criminally charged with something wouldn't that exclude him from being put on the ballot and therefore invalidate yet another electon? There has to be some other rememdy. In my mind that is the real reeson all this is so hush hush. I think they already have the smoking gun. They just need to come up with a solution that doesn't cause mass chaos!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #95
169. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-04 03:39 AM
Response to Reply #65
204. Clear, plastic boxes??
...locks?? We don't have that technology, yet.
However, I am sure the congress could set a few hundred million $$ to begin research on the matter. :eyes:



/sarcasm
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #49
144. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Lady Sonelle Donating Member (115 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 01:30 AM
Response to Original message
75. To quote a friend of Mine...


.... "Oink Oink!...Flap flap!!"


Lady Sonelle


Mark My words... something will prevent it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 01:37 AM
Response to Original message
80. Smirky never has to concede
He always does anything to stay in power.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #80
86. It may come down to him and his faithful definding the WH bunker...
Rather like Hitler in Berlin.

Because if he loses the election because of an Electoral Vote challenge, and then tries to retain power by force, the US Military is going to be ordered by President Kerry to take him out.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Chasing Dreams Donating Member (294 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #86
92. I would LOVE to see that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bush_is_wacko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #86
97. He's in Crawford at the moment, No?
I think they should attempt to keep him there. I thought it was quite cocky of him to leave the WH and go to Texas during this mess. It makes me think you aren't far off the mark about him defendiing the bunker. Rummy will defend anything!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mollyd Donating Member (41 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 01:42 AM
Response to Original message
85. Election fraud may not be enough to get Kerry in.. alas


Summary

In perhaps the most disputed presidential election in American history, Samuel Tilden handily defeated Ohio's Rutherford Hayes in the popular vote, and had 184 electoral votes to Hayes' 165. However, 20 electoral votes were in dispute due to four states (Florida, Louisiana, Oregon and South Carolina) each reporting and certifying two different sets of election returns.




The controversy

In Florida, Louisiana and South Carolina, official returns favored Tilden, but each election was marked by fraud and threats of violence against Republican voters. The Republican-dominated state electoral commissions subsequently were able to disallow a sufficient number of votes to award their electors to Hayes. The result? Two sets of returns, one certified by the state's Governor (favoring Hayes), and the other, certified by the state's legislature (favoring Tilden).

In Oregon meanwhile just a single elector was disputed. The statewide result clearly had favored Hayes, but the state's Democratic Governor (LaFayette Grover) claimed that the elector, a postmaster, was constitutionally ineligible to vote on the grounds of "holding a federal office." Grover then substituted a Democratic elector in his place.






The Electoral Commission

Facing a constitutional crisis the likes of which the nation had never seen, on January 29, 1877 the Congress passed a law forming a 15-member Electoral Commission to settle the result. Five members came from each house of the United States Congress, and they were joined by five members of the United States Supreme Court.

As the House was controlled by the Democrats, three of its five commission members were members of the Democratic party. The Senate meanwhile was controlled by the Republicans, whose members were similarly apportioned in Hayes' favor. Finally from among the Supreme Court members, the Republicans and Democrats each chose two, with the four chosen electing the fifth and final justice; ostensibly to make the commission as impartial as possible.

The justices selected Justice David Davis, but he was elected to the Senate by Illinois' state legislature, forcing them to choose an alternate, Justice Joseph P. Bradley, a Republican but still considered the most impartial remaining member of the court. This proved not to be the case however, as on each of the 20 disputed electoral votes he joined with the other 7 Republican members to award Hayes a 185-184 electoral vote victory.

In response, Senate Democrats threatened a filibuster to prevent the commission from reporting its results. To prevent this, the Republicans negotiated an agreement known as the Compromise of 1877: federal troops were withdrawn from the south, a southerner was appointed to Hayes' cabinet, and the south received various economic benefits. The withdrawal of Federal troops marked the end of Reconstruction and post-Civil War efforts to bring about racial equality.

The decision was handed down on March 2, 1877, declaring Rutherford B. Hayes the winner of the election. The election was viewed by some as having been stolen, and Hayes was dubbed "Ruthefraud" by his opponents.

This election was one of the most contentious presidential elections in United States history, with many similarities to the U.S. presidential election of 2000. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presidential_election...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Chasing Dreams Donating Member (294 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 01:44 AM
Response to Original message
88. It's not just Kerry...several House and Senate Democrats will join him.
We have given them no choice. I was ridiculed and ignored back in November when discussing the election fraud at social gatherings. That is now ancient history. The 2004 election fraud story has been openly discussed at Christmas parties throughout the country, and it is apparent that a majority of Democrats know the truth. Kerry/Edwards signs are appearing again in our town! While the MSM continues to ignore the truth, people cannot ignore their emails with links to the MOUNTAINS of evidence. Even Kerry.

The awakening of the public through the Net has been accompanied by thousands of constituent letters supporting our representatives to stand up and do the right thing on January 6, and yes, a credible threat of many to bolt the Democratic Party if it doesn't stand up now to save our democracy.

Keep the faith, and keep writing Congress. Me? I am switching gears and am going to start urging the few remaining moderate republicans to hold hearings before the up or down vote on the electors.

Constitutional lawyers: How does the contest work? Is there anything preventing the Repubs from calling for an immediate vote following a Contest? Do filibuster rules apply in the Senate?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
George W. Hayduke Donating Member (108 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 02:55 AM
Response to Reply #88
111. Overview of Electoral College Procedure and the Role of Congress
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 03:46 AM
Response to Reply #111
114. Kick
:kick: :kick:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Chasing Dreams Donating Member (294 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #111
127. Thanks. It looks like the House and Senate would go into their respective
chambers, have a short -- two hour -- debate, and then vote. And then the contest dies with the expected party-line vote. Perhaps I missed something, but I don't see a provision for public hearings, testimony, or lengthy debate

"Objecting to the Counting of One or More Electoral Votes. 3 U.S.C. 15 includes a procedure for making and acting on objections to the counting of one or more of the electoral votes from a state or the District of Columbia. When the certificate or equivalent paper from each state (or the District of Columbia) is read, "the President of the Senate shall call for objections, if any." Any such objection must be presented in writing and must be signed by at least one Senator and one Representative. The objection "shall state clearly and concisely, and without argument, the ground thereof...." When an objection is received, each house is to meet and consider it separately. The statute states that "o votes or papers from any other State shall be acted upon until the objections previously made to the votes or papers from any State shall have been finally disposed of." However, in 1873, before enactment of the law now in force, the joint session agreed, without objection and for reasons of convenience, to entertain objections with regard to two or more states before the two houses met separately to consider any of them.

Disposing of Objections. The joint session does not act on any objections that are made. Instead, the joint session is suspended while each house meets separately to debate the objection and vote whether, based on the objection, to count the vote or votes in question. Both houses must vote separately to agree to the objection. (This is the form in which the question was put in 1969; Deschler's Precedents, v. 3, Ch. 10, 3.6.) Otherwise, the objection falls and the vote or votes are counted. (3 U.S.C. 15, provides that "the two Houses concurrently may reject the vote or votes ....) These procedures have been invoked once since enactment of the 1887 law. In 1969, a Representative and a Senator objected in writing to counting the vote of an elector from North Carolina who had cast his vote for George Wallace and Curtis LeMay. Both houses, meeting and voting separately, rejected the objection, so when the joint session resumed, the challenged electoral vote was counted as cast. (This episode is discussed in Deschler's Precedents, v. 3, Ch. 10, 3.6.) In that instance the elector whose vote was challenged was from a state that did not by law "bind" its electors to vote only for the candidates to whom they are pledged. The instance of an elector voting for a different candidate (the so-called "faithless elector"), from a state which does, in fact, bind by law the elector to vote for the candidate to whom listed or pledged (see Ray v. Blair, 343 U.S. 214 (1952) in which the Court upheld the permissibility of such state limitations but did not address their enforceability), has not as yet been expressly addressed by the Congress or the courts.

Procedures for Considering Objections. 3 U.S.C. 17 lays out procedures for each house to follow in debating and voting on an objection. (As these procedures affect either house, however, they presumably are rule-making provisions of law which that house can decide unilaterally to alter.) These procedures limit debate on the objection to not more than two hours, during which each member may speak only once and for not more than five minutes. Then "it shall be the duty of the presiding officer of each House to put the main question without further debate." Under this provision, the presiding officer in each house held in 1969 that a motion to table the objection was not in order (Deschler's Precedents, v. 3, Ch. 10, 3.7). On the other hand, the Senate agreed, by unanimous consent, during the same proceeding to a different way in which the time for debate was to be controlled and allocated (Deschler's Precedents , v. 3, Ch. 10, 3.8).

So they must vote or otherwise agree to change the rules to have hearings. Somebody please tell me that I am wrong, and that the Republicans will do this because _______________!!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
many a good man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #127
134. At this point Congress can make up its own rules
That's a great summary of where we may find ourselves on Jan 6. If the objection gets a signer from the both the House and the Senate, each chamber must separately deliberate on the challenge and vote yes or no.

However, at this point almost anything is liable to happen. They can vote to extend the deliberation. They can vote to hold special hearings. They can vote to reject Ohio's votes and throw the election to the House of Representatives. If they choose to do something truly outrageous, the action can be taken to the Supreme Court, who may choose to take the case or not.

We would be in the gray zone where public opinion has greater sway than precedent or law. Whatever path they take they will be judged by the American voter. If voters don't like what was done, their only recourse will be to vote the rascals out in 2006 or try to start impeachment hearings.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MandateThis Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 05:11 AM
Response to Reply #134
216. Pubic Opinion?
Let's not forget that we are the majority of the public!!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
anamandujano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 05:40 AM
Response to Reply #88
119. one more question for the lawyers or others
What happens if we get screwed again by the Supreme Court?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kc.ink Donating Member (180 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 06:41 AM
Response to Reply #119
120. which is a very real possibility. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
anamandujano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 06:47 AM
Response to Reply #120
121. but we won't be taken by surprise this time, shocked silly and
submissive

I do hope the Kerry team has prepared for this.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
roenyc Donating Member (824 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #121
124. Kerry is so damn smart and calculating
he knows what he is doing.

considering FOX news and rush, and o'lielly i think Fraud needs to be absolutely air tight with no room for the morons to SPIN it.

And in order for it to mean something it has to go further up then Triad. It needs to link to Rove and bush and cheney in some way. or they can say "hey we didn't know just thought we gots a mandate!".


As far as handing the presidency over to Kerry (oh plaaaaaalease) and the reaction of conservative nut jobs it will be a hell of a lot different then the impeachment of Richard Nixon or even the almost impeachment of Ronald Reagan.

thats because of the media. and of course the way they will spin it. making us the bad guy and the ones doing anything we can to get the presidency. whatever!

um, i want the senate and house back too! damn them. cant believe this was allowed to happen. so many Dem's are responsible as well as republicans.

We (Dem's,and other libs) have much to do. we have to take back this country and we must start with the media. no scratch that, we must start with honest elections.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ginnyinWI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #124
137. lol--maybe then the Dems will lose their image of
being weak and "wilting" under pressure, which is a total fabrication anyway!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MandateThis Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 05:18 AM
Response to Reply #124
217. I'm really mad at the media too....
they dug theirselves in their hole. But you know most of them are liberals. There was a huge poll in 2004 with a lot of questions and it asked for party affiliation. After shaking off the bull of 911 (patriot act, color coded charts, etc.) the media would've done better to write the truth instead of giving bu$h a pass. Now they're so cowtowed it's hard to get a start. They should know that we are the majority and we'd back them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #119
126. We will shut Washington DC down until the duly elected President is
allowed to take office. Treason by the Supreme Court is no bar to direct action by the People.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
s-cubed Donating Member (860 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #126
131. I think there will be more repugs with us on Janurary 6
than against us.

Think about the iron fist rule that De Lay and Frist hold over their respective bodies. Think about the fact that the neocoms represent a fraction of the repug party. Think about how * has said f**k it to everyone who disagrees with him. Think about the repugs who spoke out against him before the election and the newspapers who endorsed Kerry, even though they had endorsed * four years ago. Think about the repugs in congress who are scared of what this wh is doing to our country and our economy. Think about those who chaff under the absolute power these bastards wield. Think about how the wh has antagonized the rank and file in the CIA and the FBI. Think about the MSM journalists (not the corporate masters) who have chaffed under the lockdown rules. Think about the vast majority of Americans, red and blue alike, whose loyalty is to their country, not to a party, nor to *.

My prediction: once the weakness is exposed, and all these people see that they could be free of * & co, they and the MSM will be all over him like vultures on roadkill.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ginnyinWI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #131
138. yes--he'd take on the "smell of death" n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TexasChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #131
141. What have they been waiting on? If these Repuketards really don't like
Chimp, why haven't they impeached him by now? Or, are there too many neoCON Repuketards in Congress vs. just "regular" Repuketards who'd be willing to draw up impeachment articles against the Chimp?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #141
142. Fear.
"Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battle station."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bunny planet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #131
149. Absolutely agree, 'Night of the Long Knives' in reverse. Can't wait.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #131
151. Agreed - and this is the only path to their own survival as well.
If they ever hope to win another primary. The fascists may come for the republicans last, but they will come.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
anamandujano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #126
161. Would the Supremes do the treason thing again?
IndyPriest in post #159 said that the federal case might be crafted as to be unappealable--is this possible? I thought everything was appealable. I think they have to be prepared for the possibility of another treasonous ruling.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-04 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #161
195. Not everything is appealable
If an order is final, it's appealable, but if it's not final, it's not appealable.

Depends on how the arguments are framed, what remedies are requested, what remedies are available, stuff like that.

It's tricky, but this kind of strategy is what gets us lawyers the big bucks.... :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
130. Is it Monday yet?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
143. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #143
148. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
New Earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #148
150. wtf dude
some people need to get lives
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
impeachthescoundrel Donating Member (395 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
147. I have always believed
That there is a distinct possibility that we will be rid of the entire vote robbing bunch! John Kerry wasn't raised as a fool! I have always thought that vote fraud would be the downfall of the repugs.

Hope springs eternal. Not for a minute have I thought they would get by with it again. OldLeftieLawyer was right; this smells just like Watergate. Too many rich spoiled republicans thinking they can get by with whatever they damn well please.

Isn't it Monday yet?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
153. PLeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease, let me eat some crow!
I'm ready. Let this be true. Please. If it is, I will have crow for breakfast, lunch and dinner for a week! :bounce:

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IndyPriest Donating Member (685 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
159. Is Old Leftie still on the premises? or other legal beagle...
Old Leftie is staking a lot on the idea that Kerry will file in FEDERAL court. Besides taking him out of the OH court loop, what's the benefit to his case? I understand the judge who will likely hear the motion is a Clinton appointee, and so (perhaps) more likely to hear it favorably. But isn't the (presumably) favorable judgment appealable? Or is the motion so carefully constrained that it isn't appealable? If it is appealable, wouldn't the SCOTUS eventually get into this?

Here's what I'm hoping: the Fed judge grants Kerry's motion and because he has every legal right to his request, there are no grounds for it to be appealed. If THAT happens, then Fed marshalls impound ALL the relevant data, and then I can see Old Leftie's scenario playing out.

So, it seems to me, a lot depends on the relevance of this motion going to a Fed judge. Anybody?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #159
162. U.S. District court is a Federal court I believe.
This is where the case is being filed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Quakerfriend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #162
163. Oh, you guys are giving me hope once again
Just remember, no matter what happens in the next week or so, we the people have the power ultimately! There are many good Repugs who will stand against *Co. The people have not all gone mad! And, *Co. has already done a lot of damage to our savings accts, our jobs, our pride and honor within the international community etc.!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-04 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #163
196. Remember this, too:
We're right now at the lowest point. Fuckface is squatting illegally in the White House, and just might do so for four more years. The invasion of Iraq continues to rot away our national fabric, our economy is in the crapper, our job situation deteriorates daily, kids have access to no medical care, our schools suck, and Barbara Bush refuses to throw herself under a highspeed train, no matter how I pray daily to that heartless deity who dares to call himself God.

So, it's all pretty lousy.

What do we have to lose by hoping and betting that Kerry's people will file a motion in Federal court that will bust open a whole nice big mess that will throw the Presidential election into a kind of manageable chaos that we Democrats are so good at spinning into gold? (Remember Watergate.)

So, we must go forward with hope, and, for me, I'm betting that Big John's gonna use all his stealthy warrior and Jesuit-trained (ahem - that makes two of us) lawyer skills to a brilliant end, and light a nice, warm fire under Fuckface.

Let's just hang together on this one, shall we?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Chasing Dreams Donating Member (294 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-04 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #196
197. I'm hanging, and sure, let's hang together on this one
even though we had a tiff a few weeks ago about the timing and intensity of Kerry's responses. That is all water under the bridge; I hope you are right on this! ;)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-04 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #197
199. We had a tiff?
Eh, what does it matter? Opinions come, opinions go. We were probably both correct.

We are united on this one, though, and that's all that matters.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-04 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #196
198. Bravo, bravo!!
I truly could not have said it better myself. I'm going to bed now, but my day at work will be dominated by frequent check-ins here at DU. This cancer that has festered on our democracy must be cut out and quickly. It has spread through all three branches of our government and the "fourth estate," and it is my most ardent hope that John Kerry shall provide the much needed elixir!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blokenblue Donating Member (24 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
175. clap clap clap
I wish the best of luck for Kerry. I hope he's able to bring all of this to a closure and finally put these evil evoting machines where they belong in the trash.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
phillipw Donating Member (30 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 08:07 PM
Response to Original message
176. Has anyone heard if he's looking into the vote machince fraud in N.M. & Fl
Has anyone heard if he's looking into the vote machince fraud in N.Mexico & Florida?
http://www.flcv.com/fraudpat.html

Whats the latest on a recount in N. Mexico?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
phillipw Donating Member (30 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
178. Here's how you can help get there: go through EIRS data for fraud pattern
in your area and other swing states like Iowa and North Carolina etc.People should go through the EIRS incidence report data in their state and swing states for fraud patterns similar to the default to Bush, and other default patterns seen in RH Phillips Ohio Mahoning County study, http://northnet.org/minstel/alpage.htm Youngstown
and the Florida and New Mexico studies http://www.flcv.com/fraudpat.html

You can find the EIRS data and votersunite.org indidence cases for your area at
http://www.voteprotect.org

and http://www.votersunite.org

go to their indcidents reports section

review or do searches through the cases for indications of fraud patterns




Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-05 07:02 PM
Response to Original message
211. Why do you guys have to start this before it happens??????????
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Tue Jul 23rd 2019, 04:10 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Election Reform Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC