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dzika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-04 01:14 AM
Original message
Responses for people who insist on ignoring Election Fraud
The full article by Robin C. Baneth can be found at:
http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=4835

Each paragraph has an argument and response.

1) X-Files Argument: "I dont believe in conspiracies, then joke about Hitler now living comfortably in Barbados, completing his second set of diaries for Der Stern have masterminded yet another election day plot to subvert American democracy." Ask why the Washington Post would feed into conspiracy theories that political reporters on its own staff could have debunked in 30 seconds. RESPONSE: Incorrect: While Hitler and Jim Morrison were the same person, neither had the modem phone numbers and IP addresses can change the central tabulators in a few key battleground counties. One Diebold omployee does not a conspiracy make. $4 billion is odometer fraud every year says where there is an evil will, there is an evil way.

2) Sour Grapes Argument: "Pro-Kerry folks dont like losing." We are bad sports. RESPONSE: Yep, thats true. See ya at the counter-inaugural.

3) The Fat Lady Singing Argument: "Its over, get over it." RESPONSE: No, dont think so. You are reading this article arent you?

4) Dont Look Under this Shell Argument: "Criticize something else." RESPONSE: Lets talk about Scott Petersons prison cell, Martha Stewarts book, or Pamela Andersons bra. These are much more important issues that fair voting in our democracy.

5) The Glass is Half Full Argument: "What is happening now is NOT constructive criticism." RESPONSE: We want printers in the precincts or paper-only voting. Sounds constructive, eerily reasonable, to me. Everyone against, please step backward (off a cliff).

6) 20/20 Foresight Argument: "It was clear that some groups -- having failed to get their way on balloting challenges filed prior to the election -- would be clogging the courts with lawsuits afterward." RESPONSE: Another vote of confidence for our system! It is broken before, during and after! We predicted it so it cant be true.

7) Frugality Argument: "It has cost Ohioans millions of dollars in fighting lawsuits and recounting ballots." RESPONSE: How much did Ken Starr bilk America for Clinton investigations during his witch-hunt rodeo circus? What was it? Oh yeah! One Hundred million dollars! What did we get for that money? For pennies on Starr dollars we get to defend democracy. 127 million blood dollars per day on Iraq, we think vote reform is a bargain at $10 per precinct and $99 per vote machine

8) Shotgun Argument: "If they fire enough shots, one may find a mark." RESPONSE: Translation: 57,000 reports to the GAO. One might be true! That truth must be squelched.

9) Chicken-Little Argument: "Cant cope with the fact that their candidates lost the election." RESPONSE: We cant handle a war criminal, social-security busting, star wars, God-talks-to-me, C student, 91 I.Q., draft-dodging, oil-sucking, tax-cuts-for-the-wealthy, pro-poverty, pro-abortion (they are up 16%), frat-boy, so why fight it? Lets be irrational about it and give into the oh-so-fair Tom Delays and the ones holding the Burr signs dancing around at our Bowles rally.

10) Say Uncle Argument: "It should stop." RESPONSE The wheels of justice are too loud. The warm feeling of sand in our ears and the close-up view of the worms in this hole is quite comfortable. Our democracy just cannot take all this scutiny. Stop it!

11) We are Above This Argument: "Ohioans ought to feel insulted that, in effect, they are being targeted by special interests who are implying strongly that Ohioans are not eager to make elections fair and honest." RESPONSE: We are just saying the Ken Blackwell is the anti-christ, thats all.

12) Chicken Kiev Argument: "Our elections arent rigged. Our candidates arent poisoned. Voters go to the polls in the greatest democracy on Earth and choose a president every four years. No matter the results, there is always a smooth transition and never a hint of anarchy or revolution. If Kerrys electors really wanted to witness fraud and voter intimidation, they should have been in Kiev on Nov. 21. It might temper criticism of their own election system." RESPONSE: Circular reasoning not withstanding: we are supposed to settle for a promise that our elections arent rigged despite Ukrainian-style exit polling, statistical anomalies, 6-10 hour waits to vote in Ohio in poor precincts, tossed out poll tapes, 56,991 other problems.

13) Emperor New Clothes Argument: "There has not been one shred of evidence to indicate that the accuracy of the voting and counting was any less that in previous elections. And Ohio does not have a bad elections record." RESPONSE: The number of complaints has skyrocketed to 57,000; much more than pre-non-paper trail voting. Two elections turned on phony vote tallies, that were later moderated." "Washington, We Have a Problem."

14) The Foxes are Guarding the Foxes Argument: "The boards of elections and people manning the polls in Ohio counties are half Democrats and half Republicans. The Democrats who were directly involved in arranging and conducting the election are not the ones making the charges." Warren County locked down for Homeland Security? A Kerry official was in the building and saw no problems. Not enough voting machines for black precincts in Columbus? A black Democrat who is chairman of the local board of elections blamed high turnout and a long ballot. The voting machines were allocated by a Democrat. RESPONSE: Fewer machines in democrat precincts than for the elections two and four years prior despite record voter registrations. Not ONE report of a Republican waiting over two hours to vote.

15) Yes, it is Broken Argument: "There were precincts in Ohio in which voters had to wait one or more hours to get into the booth. But county boards were told to postpone buying new electronic equipments mandated by Congress after the 2000 election, until the state was satisfied that a reliable paper trail could be guaranteed with the electronic machines. If millions of dollars had been spent to buy additional outmoded equipment just for this election, far more people would be complaining about the waste than now are upset about how the election was run." No matter how many lawyers and losers say every vote counts, its not true. The IRS cant collect every penny. Letters get lost in the post office. And when 5.7 million voters show up on the same day in Ohio, some slip through the cracks. This year, Ohio "lost less than 1.5 percent - one of the 10 cleanest elections in the nation, LoParo said. RESPONSE: We put locks on doors, dont we? Lets make the software tamper-proof. The manufacturers admit as much; none have passed penetration testing:
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/041217/clf031_1.html

16) Misery Loves Company Argument: The losers cant win - but they can try to make everyone as miserable as they are. "Buy one, get one free is fine for cell phones - but not elections. RESPONSE: Republicans believe everything is fine and Democrats believe it can be better. We actually want NO ONE to be miserable.

17) Democrats are Stupid Argument: "Democrats are hacks (Scarborough)." RESPONSE: There must be some of other measure than I.Q. that Democrats are unaware of. The one that said Bush won the three debates, perhaps.

18) Partisan Argument: Ask why the Washington Post would feed into partisan theories that political reporters on its own staff could have debunked in 30 seconds RESPONSE: Democrats do not honestly believe in democracy so lets stop the re-count? This is truly a non-partisan issue in Americas best interest. Arguing against election reform is like hating baseball and apple pie. Three Republican-owned voting machine companies? Blackwell, Harris, sanity anyone?

19) Nut-job Argument: "People who want election reform are insane. Late last month, the Palm Beach County elections supervisor was attacked by an angry swarm of such conspiracy nuts at a public event. The group, whom I suspect receives transmissions through the fillings in their head from the 1970s rock group Klaatu, still cant get over the fact that Bush beat Kerry by nearly 400,000 votes in Florida." RESPONSE: Yes, I admit it. I am insane. Now you have proof. By the way, Bev Harris of Black Box Voting (http://www.blackboxvoting.org /) attacked the Palm Beach Officials in the same way Bill OReilly attacks his guests everyday. This is coming out on video so you will be able to see for yourselves.

19) The Impossible Dream Argument: "Not within range Anyone who knows anything about politics knows that questioning the results of all elections that fall within 400,000 votes would cause chaos in the voting process." RESPONSE: Probably the strongest argument but pales when you consider the -16,022 for Gore in Volusia (posted to CNN) and -25 million in Youngstown, Ohio (caught before posting). What happens when the corrupted vote swing is not unreasonable? Could it slip under the radar? How many more errors do we have to wait for till we agree that paper balloting cannot cause such disruption.

20) It is Laughable Argument: "Anyone who knows anything about Florida politics knows that only the most troubled conspiracy theorist or rabid Democrat could make the laughable claim that Bushs victory in the Sunshine State was aided by fraud." RESPONSE: Lets not pursue it because it is funny.

21) No Credibility Argument: "But that didnt stop the Washington Post from reporting on a study from Berkeley students and professors who claimed that George Bush got 130,000 of John Kerrys votes from the three Democratic Counties in South Florida that have electronic voting machines. To make the discovery more credible, the Post reporters interviewed an MIT professor who first professed skepticism at such results. But later, that same professor breathlessly reported that he had looked over the numbers and came up with the same result. Had our Berkeley students and professors conducting said study spent less time reading Noam Chomsky and more time reading Florida election results, they would have understood what political factors led to George Bush outperforming their expectations by 130,000 votes in South Florida." RESPONSE: No published article or internet available refutes the UC Berkeley or UPenn analyses. Thus far, the statistical anomalies they report, that Bush had more of a chance of winning 3 lotteries on 11/2 than seeing the exit polling discrepancy and the odd favoritism of non-paper-trail voting favoring Bush remain unchallenged on their specific facts.

22) Democrats are Stoned Argument: "I will present these factors numerically in such a way that even a Berkeley student taking a fourth bong hit while assembling his aluminum foil helmet to the background strains of "Dark Side of the Moon" can follow. For those of you not stoned out of your gourd or gazing at the 3D poster of Jesus, Jerry Garcia, and George McGovern waving from atop a UFO you picked up from Spencers Gifts, the numbers draw an unmistakable conclusion." RESPONSE: Rush Limbaugh is bogarting all the Oxy-Contin.

23) Election system is Infallible Argument: Diebold marketers have persuaded election officials that their machines are infallible and therefore require no printers. RESPONSE: What would anyone suspect computers and machines to have failures? Remember The Titanic was unsinkable.

24) High Turnout Argument: "Ask any mermaid you happen to see and shell tell you that a helluva lot more people voted in 2004 than 2000. Higher voter turnout equals anyone? Anyone? Thats right! More votes for both candidates." RESPONSE: Where did George Bush get 8 million new voters? I have not met one. I have yet to meet one person who voted for Gore or who did not vote at all that became Bush people in 2004. Well maybe the Bush tribe of New Zealand.

25) John Kerry was On the Ropes Argument: "Just weeks before the election, a Palm Beach reporter spoke of the latest Palm Beach County poll showing the president within striking distance of Kerry. Almost all concurred that if Bush was outperforming expectations in heavily Democratic Palm Beach County, then John Kerry was in trouble. Turns out he was. Democratic and Republican operatives were saying before the election that John Kerry was underperforming among key constituencies in South Florida. Some Democrats blamed it on Kerrys failure to excite African-American voters while others suggested that the absence of Joe Liebermann from the ticket would hurt Democrats in Jewish communities." RESPONSE: Democrat registration up 250% in Ohio, Republican up 20%, yet vote turnout in Franklin County (OH) and Warren County (OH) down 4%. Id look in the trash can for some missing ballots.

26) George Under-Performed his Brother Jeb Argument: Had our Berkeley students briefly compared the 2004 election results with those from other years, they would have found that George Bush actually underperformed when compared to other GOP candidates including one named Jeb. Broward (-5%), Palm Beach (-4%), Miami-Dade (-8%). The presidents vote totals may have been 130,000 higher than these Berkeley students had hoped for, but the results were far from unusual. Hell, Bush even got whipped by his little brother and a slate of other Republican candidates in 2004 in these South Florida counties. RESPONSE: Jeb for President in 2008!

27) Democrats are Lazy Argument: "I dont want to do their Christmas break homework for them (can you say Christmas in Berkeley?), but here is the voting breakdown ... " RESPONSE: Those arguing for voting reform are beating opponents on every level. This is because we have the facts on our side. State of North Carolina is going to put printers in precincts based on unsubstantiated claims? California sues Diebold for defective machines? We are out working you guys.

28) These things Happen Argument: "These things dont happen." RESPONSE: Hear no evil, see no evil. Evil does not exist. No need for courts, law, system.

29) Understood and Accepted Argument: Even smart Democratic strategists agree that there was no fraud. RESPONSE: Dick Morris, Republican pundit, speaks for all Democrats when he says: "This was no mere mistake. Exit polls cannot be as wrong across the board as they were on election night. I suspect foul play." Of course, he refers to the tainted exit polling, not the tainted election.

30) Cant Handle the Truth Argument: "Immediately after the election, many of these conspiracy theorists (who pass themselves off as political activists) spoke of inexplicable vote totals in Democratic counties across North Florida that went for Bush. A few days later it was reported that these same counties had gone for Bush in 2000 and heavily trended Republican in national elections. Another conspiracy theory bit the dust. You want the truth? You cant handle the truth. Okay. Maybe you can. Here goes." RESPONSE: I actually agree with this argument. Score one for the bad guys.

31) Selective Antidotes Argument: "They also deserve to know why the paper would raise similar questions regarding the Ohio results when their report in the Buckeye state is based on selective antidotes, partisan attacks, and general observations that could have been made of every election held in all fifty states." RESPONSE: If 57,000 reports to GAO is selective, then Id like to hear what we are leaving out.

32) Federal, Not State Problem Argument: "Buckeye state is based on selective antidotes, partisan attacks, and general observations that could have been made of every election held in all fifty states." RESPONSE: Yep.

33) Uneven Playing Field for Everyone Argument: "As the spokesperson for Ohios election department said this week, In Washington, D.C., a voter who casts a ballot in the wrong precinct cannot have that ballot counted. Yet in Ohio, it was voter suppression and voter disenfranchisement. Todays Post report began with a Ohio voter recounting the tragic tale of how young, black men left polling places before casting their votes because they had to wait too long. How is that good for democracy she asked. Pass the Pulitzer and weep for our once free land. Why, there are reports that between 5,000 and 15,000 people lost their votes because they refused to wait in line." RESPONSE: Screw everyone.

34) Republicans are Tougher argument: "Funny how you never hear similar horror stories from Republican precincts. Is that because it never happens or because the press never reports it? All I know is that on election day, voters in Precinct 110 in Escambia County, Florida stood in line for up to seven hours waiting to vote. When the rain started pouring down and the rest of Floridas polling places closed down, these voters stayed put. As the hours passed by, the tired voters began singing "God Bless America" and other patriotic hymns. College students drove in pickup trucks filled with bottled water to give the crowd. These people had come to vote and they were going to stay there until their vote was counted. So why didnt we hear about similar GOP precincts across America on election night?" RESPONSE: Please, one Republican, come forward and tell us you waited in line for three hours or more. We have reports of 10 to 13 hour waits for Democrats. We needed a portable Motel 6.

35) Racist Agument: "You dont hear both sides of the story because most Republican voters stuck in line are white conservatives and moderates who voted for Bush. Instead, who among us can resist the tale well told of young black men having their votes stolen by scheming, white Republican power brokers? Even if, in the case of Ohio, the white, scheming Republican is actually black." RESPONSE: Please, one Republican, come forward and tell us you waited in line for three hours or more. We have reports of 10 to 13 hour waits for Democrats. We needed a portable Motel 6. But I guess black peoples time is only worth 3/5 or white peoples time.

36) Media Conspiracy Argument: "Reporters dont usually win awards or get noticed by their editors for writing such stories. " RESPONSE: Watch for F 9/11 at the Oscars. Oh, my Dad heard the election controversy for the first time last Friday so this story may be getting over-exposed. Slow down, truth-seekers! The roar is deafening.

37) Shoot the Messenger Argument: "I am not surprised that a reporter would pitch this story to an Internet publisher who deals in conspiracy theories. But the fact that the Washington Post would publish this sloppy piece of journalism is shocking. Readers of the Washington Post deserve better." RESPONSE: Please help America and increase the coverage of Scott Petersons prison cell, Martha Stewarts book, or Pamela Andersons bra. These are much more important issues than fair voting in our democracy.

ALL CONTENT FREE TO RE-USE
by : Robin Baneth
Monday 20th December 2004

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Wisperingvoice Donating Member (21 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-04 01:20 AM
Response to Original message
1. Responses for people who insist on ignoring Election Fraud
He is about to set a political record. For our 43rd President, he tends to measure his progress by the enemies he makes. He claims his presidency is one that has drawn some fire" HOW ABOUT DEATHS?
You must realize that to our present administration, these lives are insignificant. Just the cost of doing business. Nearly half of the voters in this country do not like the Bush way of doing business, and we hope the world will see that.
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cry baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-04 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Welcome to DU!
:hi:
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electropop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-04 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. More than half don't like the Bush way of doing business
As of yesterday, Chimp's approval rating was 49%, and it hasn't moved much since before the election. It's amazing that 49% like him, and supposedly 51% voted for him. It's just not credible.
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serbach Donating Member (35 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-04 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. Hmmm, Kerry wasn't likeable...
...and the pre-election surveys all showed that Bush was more "likeable" than Kerry. And Kerry lost. Is what people say about "likeability" really your criterion for doubting the outcome of the election?

Steve Erbach
Neenah, WI
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electropop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-04 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. well, maybe I shouldn't have said "like"
Edited on Tue Dec-21-04 03:35 PM by electropop
The poll I'm referring to is job approval. It's possible that 2% of people who think he's doing a bad job, like him so much personally that they voted for him. I hope our electorate hasn't become so foolish, but I guess it's possible. On the other hand, when they left the polls, the majority believed they had voted for Kerry, even though some may have preferred W as a beer-drinking buddy. To me that means they liked Kerry's prospective job performance, regardless of whether they'd like to go windsurfing with him.
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-04 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. Hi serbach!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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serbach Donating Member (35 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-04 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. Well, thank you
This is an interesting joint you've got here.

Steve Erbach
Neenah, WI
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Wisperingvoice Donating Member (21 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-04 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
12. Responses for people who insist on ignoring Election Fraud
Did I forget to mention, the price our soldiers have to pay (Their lives) and the price the government has to pay?It's all about the $.....
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-04 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
19. Hi Wisperingvoice!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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cry baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-04 01:30 AM
Response to Original message
2. Seriously well thought out, thanks dzika! I'll use these.
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procinderella Donating Member (110 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-04 02:10 AM
Response to Original message
4. Votergate site

"As democracy is perfected, the office of the president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
--H.L. Mencken (1880-1956)
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Peter Frank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-04 03:35 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. You neglected to mention the moron's support system...
n/t
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dzika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-04 09:12 AM
Response to Original message
6. kick. nt.
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Wisperingvoice Donating Member (21 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-04 09:34 AM
Response to Original message
7. He failed once.
George Bush's presidency is one that has drawn some fire, whether it be at home or around the world. Unfortunately, if you're doing big things,including "BUSINESS" most of the time you're never going to be around to see them , whether it be cultural change or spreading democracy in parts of the world where people just don't believe it can happen. He sure better not expect many short-term historians to write nice things about him after this error. <<HOW SHAMEFUL
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AnarchoFreeThinker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-04 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
8. Re: #7 How much taxpayer money is wasted on an election that
doesn't reflect the will of the taxpayer? Recount costs are peanuts.
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-04 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
9. Thank you for this...sending it out
Thanks for posting this Dzika!
Excellent, esp for those who have followed the issues in depth and are now compelled to respond to the spinning rumors and partyspeak sound bites--all of the myriad attempts to discredit our perfectly legitimate concerns.
Suggest to send the bellacaio link above to email lists and media.

:kick:
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-04 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
10. 
"Democrats are hacks (Scarborough)." RESPONSE: There must be some of other measure than I.Q. that Democrats are unaware of. The one that said Bush won the three debates, perhaps.

A very funny snippet of conversation in a TV programme on Arthur Miller, the other night.

They were sitting by a TV, which had on one of those "debates". The interviewer, I believe asked Miller's opinion on them, to which he replied, "pure game show"! And they both cracked up. (The solemn expression of the moderator at the time, desperately trying to portray gravitas and authority, just made it seem all the more hilarious!
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serbach Donating Member (35 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-04 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
13. Has anyone speculated...
...about if Kerry had, indeed, won Ohio straight up without all the voter fraud tangle? That is, if he would have won the electoral college vote but would still have had a MINORITY of the popular vote. I mean, for four years many Democrats have insisted that Bush didn't have a "mandate" after Florida 2000. But even Gore didn't have a MAJORITY of the popular vote.

I'm not saying that if vote fraud is proven in the 2004 election that we wouldn't have a terribly serious situation. My point is that Democrats would have looked a bit silly in retrospect if the election would have been "clean" and they relied on the Electoral College for a Kerry win instead of the popular vote after having moaned about it for four years.

Steve Erbach
Neenah, WI
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Chi Donating Member (921 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-04 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
14. Great post
By any chance....do you have a link to the 91 IQ factoid?
Would love to use that in some discussions.

Thanx in Advance
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serbach Donating Member (35 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-04 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Maybe not the link you want...
...but Steve Sailer did a load of research on it:

http://www.vdare.com/sailer/kerry_iq_lower.htm

He also debunked the red-states-have-lower-IQs deal:

http://www.vdare.com/sailer/041114_iq.htm

Sorry! It just seems counterproductive to keep obsessing about things that aren't true.

Steve Erbach
Neenah, WI
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dzika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-04 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. This is probably more realistic...
Back in 1999, Charles Murray, co-author of The Bell Curve, and I
estimated from Bushs SAT of 1206 (about 1280 under the easier
scoring system adopted in 1995) that his IQ fell somewhere around
the 95th percentile. The late leftist historian Jim Chapin estimated
that Bushs IQ of roughly 125 probably falls in the second quartile
of presidents, a little below average, while Al Gore, who scored
about 10 points higher, was in the third quartile. You dont have to
be a genius to be president.

http://www.amconmag.com/2004_12_06/feature.html
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Chi Donating Member (921 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-04 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. Thanx for the link.
"Sorry! It just seems counterproductive to keep obsessing about things that aren't true."

I ask for a link to verify something someone else stated, and that is obsessing?
What's with that?

In my book, verifying information before believing it, or repeating it, is wise.
But hey, to each his own.
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serbach Donating Member (35 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-04 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. Sorry
I assumed something that I shouldn't have; that is, that you were predisposed to accept the notion of Bush having a 91 IQ. Sorry about the obsessing crack.

To me it doesn't seem that raw intelligence is the best indicator of a President's success. FDR was very smart and he won four terms. Carter was very smart and he was booted after one. I voted for Carter, but not because of his intelligence.

Steve Erbach
Neenah, WI
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RaulVB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-04 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
22. Excellent argument!
Nobody with a basic level of common sense could dispute this explanation.

Thanks for posting it!
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-04 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
23. Add to your Frugality Argument
that the USofA is spending/has spent $60 million in the Ukraine to insure their "fair and democratic election".

Every time I write a senator or represenative, I include that in my letter. How dare they fight for and spend to protect the democracy and "fair elections" in the Ukraine, but close their eyes to the election fraud at home?

I also like question the reason we are in Iraq with the same reasoning. If we could wage war and justify the war for purposes of "spreading democracy and providing the citizens of Iraq fair elections" then why will they not give U.S. citizens the same consideration!

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TexasLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-04 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
24. One More Naysayer Argument
This is a great list. One more argument that I have heard on the fraud issue is:

"But that's ILLEGAL!"

My response: Murder is illegal too, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen-- A LOT.
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-04 05:21 PM
Response to Original message
25. Thanks for this post. Good answers for people like the Scar,
Edited on Tue Dec-21-04 05:22 PM by bleever
and also for the kinder, gentler naysayers sidling up these days to say in calm, soothing tones, "Well sure, if we had signed confessions from all the wrongdoers, that would be one thing, but in reality we should concentrate on fine-tuning our message."

I especially liked one I read here a little earlier from someone who responded to a post about under-allocation of machines to heavily Democratic precincts by saying that you shouldn't accuse anyone of stealing the election unless you can say who exactly did it, and how.

That's like me coming out in the morning to find my car tires slashed, and deciding that since I don't have a name and address for the vandal that I should drive away like everything's fine.

:eyes:
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texpatriot2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-04 11:42 PM
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28. Thanks dzika for this, these responses are great n/t
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dzika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 02:07 AM
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29. kick. nt.
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dzika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 06:29 AM
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30. kick. nt.
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corbett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 02:09 PM
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31. Awesome Piece! Thanks For Posting It!
I've shared the original URL with my circle of friends!
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