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mattclearing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 02:39 PM
Original message
Michael Moore Dismisses Vote Fraud Allegations
Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but...

From Rolling Stone, http://www.rollingstone.com/poymoore

Do you give any credence to these Internet conspiracy theories about the voting machines in Ohio?

Nah. And I don't have a double standard here. I've stressed since 2000 that Gore won the popular vote. Now, even if Kerry won Ohio, clearly more people across the country wanted Bush than Kerry. So there you go. Deal with it.
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eleny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
1. What about Florida? It's not just aobut Ohio.
This is a pissadointment.

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berniew1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #1
37. Michael just hasn't been educated about the documented widespread fraud
Lots of states documented to have widespread systematic voter suppression www.flcv.com/votefrau.html

and widespread patterns of vote machine fraud
www.flcv.com/fraudpat.html

these are only the tip of the iceburg but were enough to swing the election by themselves.

Someone need so educate him.
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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-04 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #37
76. This is interesting! I'm listening to Arnebeck interview
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

He keeps mentioning that he has evidence of deliberate voter disenfranchisement. Much of this evidence would probably be on film.

Maybe Moore was lying to Rolling Stone, laying low until he presented his evidence.
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ET Awful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
2. First, F*#k Rolling Stone for referring to the mounting evidence
as "internet conspiracy theories." Second, Moore is entitled to his opinion, but he's wrong.
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leftyandproud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-04 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #2
51. seems like EVERYONE in our party...
kerry, edwards, the DNC, al franken, michael moore, moveon.org, americans coming together, etc etc etc...have ACCEPTED the reality of things. We lost. As distrurbing as the thought it, there were more of THEM than us this year...and the stupidity of Americans will destroy this country.

Blame a STUPID country for this loss, an move on with your life.
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ET Awful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-04 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #51
56. Gee, you have a funny definition of everyone. n/t
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
3. I would not expect Moore to be programming savvy, I doubt he has ever
heaad of an if then statement.

Even punch cards are tabulated by programs written by employee's of ES&S or Triad.
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insane_cratic_gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. this was published
Dec. 15th

when was the interview given?

yet on the same day he posted this http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/index.php?id=600

So who knows that he thinks?
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mattclearing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. I'm in the "purposeful silence" crowd, so I don't claim it as definitive.
But he said it, so I figure it's worth disseminating.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. Agree he isn't tech savvy, but he should have better instincts.
And at least interview the many tech savvy professors out there who have courageously put their reputations on the line, before he dismisses out of hand.
If he has interviewed them and dismissed their arguments then he should state that, otherwise we have to conclude it's just his opinion.
Moore's opinion matters to a lot of people, he should be respectful of it's impact and do the necessary research before offering it.
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. With all the attention to BBV and Ohio being a 70% punch card state
Edited on Sun Dec-19-04 03:10 PM by rosebud57
it took me a lot of digging to find information on how punch cards are tabulated. I think a lot of people assumed for all the problems with chad, punch card were not susceptible to tabulation fraud. Technically that is true because the punch cards are a deterrant to fraud because they are evidence. But like cheating the IRS, it's worth the risk because without an audit (hand count of every ballot) a tabulation fraud perpetrator won't get caught.
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VTGold Donating Member (438 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
4. I don't believe he means it....
Either he's being ironic - or he's trying to keep the heat off until they have more ammo.....(she said crossing fingers and toes...)
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Think about it, who among us other than programmers understand
how votes are tabulated? All those observers, independent witnesses and the press. There is literally nothing to see. It is all hidden in thousands of lines of code.
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tandem5 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #7
45. its maddening because you hear explanations as to why a certain...
voting computer failed... and to anybody that has even a little computer experience - its a totally bogus explanation. Its sad because a lot of people still think our mass media information structure is moderated by real experts. In reality its just a press release-and-report deal with "expert" teleprompt readers.
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-04 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #7
77. An interesting sidebar to your comments
Back in the mid to late 80's my dad was an electronics engineer, so we had loads of magazines around including 'defense electronics'. There was an interesting write up on the star wars defense stuff. There was some mention of 10,000,000 lines of code in the whole project - and it was calculated that would be a certain percent of bugs per thousand lines, many of which would not be caught until they caused an error in real time.

Some bugs are easy to spot, but others deal with problems the programmers had not envisioned or ignored as too improbable.

Given all this I wonder what the error rate is set at for voting machines and if any analysis has been carried out on all counting/voting devices which use a program (which I suppose would include an integrated chip in this case)?

It would be a worthwhile study to have funded to help sniff out potential problems - and perhaps Kerry can help push through funding for a group that wants to carry this all out. Seperate of this election, non-partisan, scientific analysis of statistics and be given (by governmental mandate) all source code to compare to other systems and to be analyzed by a variety of groups to project potential error rates and problems.


Just a thought.
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E_Smith Donating Member (246 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-04 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #77
79. I don't think the code for
voting machines can be very complicated... think about it. This isn't star wars. I've taken some programming courses and tabulating votes is so simple I think it would be on par w/ one of your first programming assignments in class.
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-04 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #79
80. One would hope not - but programs can get complicated real quick
They would have to take into account a large variable of things - like idiotic things people might do, fluctuating candidate information and issues (data which it probably pulls from somewhere, which is itself problematic at times), plus a slew of other things which all interconnect (How is it tabulated, where is data sent, how does it cross check information, etc).

It may be a simple logic subroutine to count the number of votes - but there is always way more to programs than the simple things. I wrote a simple program for a group once to enter some basic information into a form. It went downhill from there. Lots of new checks and balances they wanted, changing data types, and so on lead to mess (until I told them code was froze and changes would have to wait two months...) And all this was, was a simple form where you type in data and submit it to a data base. Then came the new things - validate this, warn on that, report back if they type this or click that - not to mention all the internal tracking I had to do on things within the code.

Simple yes, but a few lines of code can get real long in real world apps where you have to assume the worse and prepare for it in code.
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eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #4
29. Agree 100%
Trying to keep the heat off or being threatened not to say anything different...
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TrustingDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #4
31. my circulation is suffering for all the crossing of appendages lately...
but I'm with you on this one, a little more patience I will give to Moore than to Kerry. at this time.
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 02:52 PM
Response to Original message
8. I'm an optimist...read
I think everyone who knows about the possibilities for a Senator to step forward and co-sign a challendge to the electoral vote in Ohio {unlike 2000} and what will ensue thereafter knows it's better to just remain silent about the cries for Kerry to be named President (for now).

Just allow the process to run its course -- It keeps the heat off Kerry and the tinfoil name calling -- keeping the nation focused on the allegations-charges players involved or not doing their job etc...

January 6th...a big day, should be interesting especially since so much jhas developed in the past 2 weeks...But, that's my opinion.
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Griffy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #8
27. the house will elect bush anyway, thats his point...
Edited on Sun Dec-19-04 04:21 PM by Griffy
and I know this is likely.. only if millions of ppl are outside the capitol that day.. who knows?.. BE IN DC on the 6th!
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latteromden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
9. Well, I believe it because
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Green Mountain Dem Donating Member (784 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
11. By the way....
Where are all of Moore's video tapes from election sites..and why no mention of them by Moore?? If they are just to be used for another documentary, ala F911, then it would appear that Moore's interest is more for personal monetary gratification than any concern over election fraud. I hope he's not counting on my $$ to further his personal gains...I bought F911..I will NOT buy any more!!
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DrDebug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #11
28. Good point what happened to those tapes
There has been so many "inconsistencies" found upto now in the Ohio vote that it would be very strange if none of them can be found on those videotapes. If Michael Moore denies that there was been fraud - even though we have a whole forum full of irregularities - then why not show the tapes and lets see if there is no indication of fraud on those tapes.
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RevCheesehead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-04 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #11
57. Perhaps those tapes are to be used as evidence...
I'd like to cut Mike a break here. First of all, this interview was published over a month ago. Secondly, if he were to speak out, without documentation, he'd be dismissed. He's already a candidate for people's most hated person of the year.

And sometimes, truly wise people know when to keep their mouth shut.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
12. Michael Moore gets some of it, but not enough of it.
As with 9/11. He lays out a good argument why it had to have been a state-supported operation, but then says the state is Saudi Arabia, and not his own government.

His critique is not radical enough, and his understanding not deep enough. He still thinks it's just politics.

He strides up to the door of power, and we cheer him on, but instead of kicking it in he rings the bell and runs away giggling.
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mattclearing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. I think he pushes as far as he feels his audience is willing to go.
My personal opinion is that he is aware of the possibilities, but does not want to put himself out on the fringe by being overly radical. He is already a bit of a radical as it is.
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KaliTracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. i agree... and feel it's the same with all the "celebs" out there
who haven't been making much noise (though I really enjoyed seeing Barbara Streisand's blog yesterday)...

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tsuki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-04 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #14
69. Why should he speak out? So the DLC can grab more headlines
defaming him? Heaven forbid that the DLC actually criticize a Republican. Someone might get the idea that we are a two party system. /sarcasm off...until DLC is mentioned again.
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The Flaming Red Head Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #12
26. He helped to put Bush in the WH in 2000 and he knows it
Edited on Sun Dec-19-04 04:21 PM by The Flaming Red Head
They could make a whole movie about him being Nader's campaign manager and deflecting votes from Gore and it would be as convincing as F/911.

And I do like Moore but I could care less if he thinks there was fraud or not. By next year he'll come out with a movie saying that there was fraud, but he'll wait until he sees if there is an audience for it.

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johan helge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
13. Michael Moore should have said that
the US election system (e-voting WITHOUT a paper trail, ballots being counted ONLY by machines) is madness. Noone knows what happened in the 2004 election - and that's precisely the problem.

But, the recounts in New Hampshire and Ohio didn't indicate fraud (or did they?). Does this mean that (massive) fraud in these states have been disproved? I don't know - do you?
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Meme Donating Member (233 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #13
25. I agree he should have said something like that
I just dont get why he didnt. Especially after everything he has done and investigated the last couple of months/years. He of all people should know fraud is a very good possibility when youre dealing with people like Bush. Maybe he DOES believe that fraud took place, and this whole thing is just a strategy. But whether he believes it or not I just really dont understand his answer.

"Tasteblind" mentioned Moore might not want to be too radical at the moment, but I kinda liked him radical. I think this whole "Bush DID win, move on" attitude is kinda depressing. I miss the days when he screamed as loudly as he could. I just miss someone who screams at the top of his lungs: WAKE UP AMERICA. YOUR DEMOCRACY HAS BEEN STOLEN, LETS FIGHT. WE MIGHT LOSE, BUT AT LEAST LETS TRY. I really miss those days :(
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rock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
15. "So there you go."
I.e. Kerry would win the presidency. Them's the rules.
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platinumman Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 03:13 PM
Response to Original message
17. What do you expect?
Michael Moore will make more money with Bush still in power. The man's a businessman, after all.
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KaliTracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 03:13 PM
Response to Original message
18. when was the interview given?
Edited on Sun Dec-19-04 03:28 PM by KaliTracy
My newest issue of Mother Jones was just delivered, and they, too said though 1,000s of people writing in insisting that "something" happened were just "wrong," Bush just happened to win -- not by much, but he won. -- HOWEVER, if these interviews, editorials, etc. all occurred before Conyers started the ball rolling, then what they said then, though they may still stand by it, is moot.
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liam97 Donating Member (406 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. He is dumb
There is no proof that Bush won the popular vote
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KaliTracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. well 3 million voters can't be wrong
...tongue firmly placed in cheek...
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #20
30. What IS the actual popular vote count? Anybody?
I read somewhere recently that the popular vote count now stands at 2.4 million. Can anybody confirm that?

I guess I jst don't want to use an inflated figure for B* if I dont have to....
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bemis12 Donating Member (594 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. It's still over 3 million n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #32
36. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
emcguffie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-04 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #20
83. those 3 million
That's what they all say -- I mean, that the win was so big for Bush that it shouldn't be contested. But that's utterly ridiculous. That's probably what Ms. Brazile thinks.

Heads in the sand. Maybe. Maybe not.
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NewsGuyOne Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-04 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #19
86. If people are serious about challenging the results, we can't be kneejerks
Jezus. Is this the best answer you can give?
Michael Moore, for all his faults, has been a godsend for the left, in terms of changing the national debate.
And all you've got is "he is dumb"

Man.
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Splinter Cell Donating Member (498 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
22. WTF?
I love the man's films, but this comment was fucking retarded. I think Moore is one of the true American patriots left, and for him to come out like everyone else and say, "well, we got bent over and dicked in the ass, but oh well." is horrible.

Somebody has to make a stink about this. If we just give up and let it go, it will happen every damn time. We may never have another fairly elected president again. It will just be whoever can rig the most machines.
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KaliTracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. i don't think he's ignoring the possibility
and i don't think he wanted to go on record saying -- "It was all rigged, we have film, we have interviews, we have PROOF...." hell, the man travelled with body guards in October 2003 because of threats. That's not saying he might NOT have come up with anything, but if he did, would he really be talking about it before it was ready? I think not. YOMV
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Helga Scow Stern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
23. He may have been too personally involved to see clearly....
he may be suffering some kind of emotional trauma from the tremendous letdown of the election.

It may be too painful for him to face up to the fact that he could easily be killed if he spoke up.

Who knows what someone in his position goes through?

That's why it's all the more important that we keep seeing and speaking what we see, what we know, what we are discovering.

Cognitive dissonance goes on when faced with the unthinkable. I have seen it happen too many times around someone dying or other traumatic news. This could have a similar psychological effect on many people.
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femme.democratique Donating Member (969 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
33. Good for him, he obviously has his clueless blind head up his ass
The same man who knows they didn't play fair in 2000 now believes they played fair in 2004? What a crock of shit.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 04:53 PM
Response to Original message
34. He just wrote a very looooong article on the Ohio election fraud.
Edited on Sun Dec-19-04 05:08 PM by in_cog_ni_to
When was this article done? His article was on his web site just last week. He was NOT dismissing the fraud in the article.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
35. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Helga Scow Stern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #35
40. How anyone "feels" is beside the point. Experience is experience, and
Edited on Sun Dec-19-04 05:17 PM by Ojai Person
fact is fact. Prove Bush won. That's all anyone is asking.

On edit:

The way they are acting in New Mexico, Washington, and Ohio, for a start regarding very justifiable requests for vote verification sure seems to indicate they have something to hide.

If I wasn't convinced otherwise, the behavior by those who want to block discovery and the truth would surely dispel any remaining doubt.

There are three reasons not to "believe" this election was fraudulent:

1) Not informed--and then should support honest discovery
2) In denial or cognitive dissonance.
3) Have an agenda of deception.

We have patience for 1 & 2. Number 3 doesn't belong here.
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New Earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-04 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #35
64. hey miamiMD
what is Blackwell hiding?
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myschkin Donating Member (488 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
38. He is so naiive!!!

He should receive a TIA-information campaign...

And by the way: Shame on the Rolling Stone!

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Generator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
39. Well this fits with what I posted a couple weeks ago
He had said, "Kerry wasn't the best candidate."

He's in the blame Kerry crowd (of course he was never fully behind Kerry because he wasn't his first or even second choice).

I'm in the blame Bush and all his evil band of thugs crowd. And that's in the crowd I'm going to remain.

No matter what my or anybody's individual feelings about Kerry, Bush is the problem, will remain the problem and is trying his best to truly destroy this country. The propagandistic media is the problem.

I have children under the age of five and I'm saying to my husband, maybe gettting the hell out of here is the best thing for their future. When will the draft come anyway? When the let the next terrorist attack happen due to incopmetence or worse,something like a dirty bomb and they use that as an excuse to take away more of our civil rights and institutitue a draft-for boys and girls.

This is a war, it's not politics as usual. Moore is another defeatist that doesn't get it. Ahh if we just have a better canidtate...Bullshit. They control the media, the machines, the money, the everything.. until those that are supposedly on "our side" admit it, acknoweldge it and do everything than can to fight it, there is no 2008 that matters.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 05:15 PM
Response to Original message
41. Then why did he publish my last vote fraud article on his site?
Odd.
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mary195149 Donating Member (231 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. Something's going on.
MM is quiet like the rest of them. There's no way he doesn't think there is a great potential of fraud and then have articles on his website about fraud. Must know alot more than letting on.
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The Flaming Red Head Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. He's always been a BIG advocate of free speech,
Edited on Sun Dec-19-04 05:21 PM by The Flaming Red Head

and you are a great writer.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #41
47. He published "From Selma to Ohio"?
William, I haven't been to his site lately. Are you saying he published "From Selma to Ohio"?

Good on him!

I think he's big enough to see that he called it wrong, and shouldn't have talked off the top of his head. The article was published 12/15. A whole lot of people are just catching up with this amazing story. It's taking time--as with Iraq WMDs, as with Halliburton, as with 9/11, as with Watergate, as with so many things--but mostly with Bush things, as the corporate media becomes more and more an Iron Curtain over what's really happening.

Someone needs to brief Michael Moore! HE SHOULD BE THE ONE DUMPING THE DIEBOLD MACHINES INTO BOSTON HARBOR!!!

Finally, look at the way Rolling Stone put the question:

"Do you give any credence to these Internet conspiracy theories about the voting machines in Ohio?"

1. They are out to debunk "internet conpiracies," are they? Well, "internet conspiracies" are out to debunk, and dump, THEM! What we're seeing in the wording of that question is FEAR. Fear of competition. Very of being exposed as an establishment dust corner.

2. Rolling Stone has always been a suckup rag--ever since they fawned all over John Lennon and sneered at Paul. Idiots. (John wiped his shoes with Rolling Stone. Used it as a doormat. Really.)
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. No, this one
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CoffeeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
44. These Moore comments were probably made a month ago...
I'm not sure of Rolling Stone's lead time--but the magazine probably conducted that interview with Moore sometime very soon after the election.

I used to work in media relations and most magazines had at least one month lead time, from interview--->publication.

So much has happened during the past month. More evidence has emerged since Moore sat down for this interview.

In addition, if Moore has recently added fraud-related articles and commentary to his site--that speaks volumes about his present attitude.

I'd certainly give his current site postsings more weight than an interview conducted at least a few weeks ago.

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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #44
50. I agree! A month is even a rather short lead time...
It took me until around midnight on Nov. 2 to figure out what they'd done, and to have a working hypothesis of the what, where and when--and I knew all about electronic voting; most people didn't know what the potential for fraud was, and furthermore had no idea what had been done to them by the Exit Poll switch on their TV screens (the networks feeding the Diebolded Republican electronic voting machine "results" into the Exit Poll data, hiding Kerry's lead in the Exit Polls). (That's why we didn't have a Ukraine reaction here--nobody knew!)

So, for some hours on Election Night, I felt what MM must have been feeling weeks after the Election, during the period of the RS interview: in a state of shock, like something vital inside of me had died, my heart, my soul, my belief in democracy, my faith in the American people.

BUT, when I finally did figure this crime out--enough so that I was fairly certain of it, late that night--boy, did that change everything! Then my mission was to find out if my gut feeling, my instincts, and the information I had about electronic voting, and of course my dire suspicions of anything Bush, were right. And I've gotten nothing but confirmation since. (The Freeman report, the Berkeley report, the TruthIsAll reports, the ignatzmouse report, and so much more, and now all the zillions of stories from Ohio.)

Can you imagine what other Kerry voters must be feeling, who don't know any of this? They still feel like their soul was cut out of them. And MM gave more than most, put his all into ousting Bush--and I picked up somewhere that centrist/right Dems have been raking him over the coals. I feel for him! And I hope he finally responds to what's been done especially to his black friends in Ohio, and to all Ohio Democrats, minorities, poor people and students. They really took the hit this time. What a disgrace it is to our nation, to have all this happen, 40 years after the Voting Rights Act!

Come on, Michael! Rise up! Defend your brothers and sisters in Ohio! Your home! Defend us all--again! Stand up for the truth--again! Help us lift the Iron Curtain on this!
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SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 05:36 PM
Response to Original message
46. I don't get this at all.
I've been convinced that he was working on something in secret, that he really does understand that these "conspiracy theories" are in fact based on fact, and that his snazzed up appearance on The TOnight Show (or whatever it was) was a put-on, all for show.

He's been a hero to me for so long, I'm not willing to give up on him. I REFUSE to believe he does what he does for money.

But this "Bush won fair and square" nonsense is getting to be too much. No matter how you slice it, there are election problems, serious ones.

Moore! Please! Either send a sign that you're with us here, or for GOd's sake come to your senses.

This just breaks my heart.
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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
49. Well, damn!!
If Michael Moore says it, it must be so!!
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GOPBasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-04 09:34 AM
Response to Original message
52. Mike, it's NOT just Ohio, it's at least Florida, too.
And most likely others. Bush would NOT have won the popular vote if all the votes were counted.
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AnarchoFreeThinker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-04 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
53. he's missed the point. If the rules were set to capture the popular
vote and the Dems lost it, then that would matter. But the rules are set to capture the electoral college. Why should anybody accept a "defeat" to a game that was never played?
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corbett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-04 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
54. He's In On The Strategy
Even though Michael Moore supported Clark in the primaries, he HATES the shrub! What's more, his hatred grows day by day as our military's body count rises. He MUST be in on Kerry's strategy of giving Ohio election officials enough rope to hang themselves. Remember, he's the one with all the film and video footage of fraud and voter disenfranchisement on Election Day. He's just doing his part to help Kerry win and if that means fibbing to Rolling Stone, so be it!

http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=4816
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debl Donating Member (11 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-04 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
55. Other strange words from MM post election
Remember Michael's Friday, 11/5 article "17 reasons not to slit your wrists"? At the time I was so depressed I could barely read it. Then I got to one of the last sentences and I was pissed:

Don't expect the mainstream media, the ones who brought you the Iraq War, to ever report the real truth about November 2, 2004. In fact, it's better that they don't. We'll need the element of surprise in 2008.

What the hell is that supposed to mean? Obviously, what a stupid place to put my anger, on MM of all people! I'm certainly not mad at him for laying his life and career on the line for this election (smart business in post-2000 America is not to hit Bush at every opportunity, and Michael is enough of a businessman to know that, yet he does it anyway).

In Rolling Stone, he says:

Do you give any credence to these Internet conspiracy theories about the voting machines in Ohio?

Nah. And I don't have a double standard here. I've stressed since 2000 that Gore won the popular vote. Now, even if Kerry won Ohio, clearly more people across the country wanted Bush than Kerry. So there you go. Deal with it.

First, the Nah. It is disturbing, but then again the question was specifically about fraud in voting machines, the whole high-tech vote stealing concept. That's what he dismissed with a "nah" as does the mainstream media, because the argument "we know we'll find it if you'll let us look" is not as strong as the argument "we found it, here's the evidence." Now maybe they have the evidence, and if the Ohio Supreme Court lets Moss have his day in court, maybe we'll get to hear it. But I'm counting on Moyers and company doing everything possible to stop that from happening, because if any arguments are heard, it won't help Bush out, no matter that they'll rule against Moss in the end.

But back to MM, he was NOT asked this question: "Do you give any credence to the complaints from black and poor voters in Ohio who say that their voting rights were systematically attacked in Ohio in 2004 by a number of means, including intimidation, changing of precincts at the last moment, destruction of voter registration forms, cleansing of voter rolls, challenge lists, machines that say "you voted for Bush!" when you pressed Kerry, and deliberate shorting of voting machines in poor areas? Had they asked him that, I hope he would have answered something other than "Nah."

Next, he goes into the popular vote argument, which is also disturbing in its own way. He's already said he's not going to use his "political capital" to shout about fraud unless it's proven. Frankly, it's not going to help our cause if MM comes out and supports us now. Even people on the left like to kick MM for breakfast, just to show they're not loony, and it makes me sick, because MM is not loony in any way. But I digress.

Since he's not going to jump on the fraud bandwagon, his argument goes right back to the popular vote, and in a way he's right to do that. If there wasn't fraud, which his argument has to assume, then even if Kerry won Ohio, Bush still got 3 million more votes. MM's been going around the country since 2000 saying Gore should be president because he won 500,000 more votes. How is he now going to say Kerry should be president when Bush won 3,000,000 more votes? (I know this assumes the 3 million votes are real, but that's again not something MM can think about publicly.) MM is an abolish the electoral college guy, and when you take that position, you do need to be consistent.

BUT!!

Let's talk reality and not how things should be. In this country, under current law, there is an electoral college. Both the Kerry and Bush campaigns ran to win the electoral college, not the popular vote. In another hypothetical universe, without an electoral college, running for the popular vote, Kerry would SURELY have run a different campaign, in different states, with different ad buys, as would have Bush. What would the popular vote have been if Kerry had been in New York or California on the night before the election, instead of Ohio? Note that W. was in Texas, and they even said on the news, he wants to be sure he wins the popular vote, so he's in Texas on the last night. Makes sense since he lost it in 2000 and was still president, right?

Following US law, John Kerry ran a race for the electoral college. Therefore, no one can say what would have happened if our laws called for winner by popular vote. The totals would not have been the same. All we know is what happened running for the electoral college. Or rather, I guess we don't know what really happened.

And apparently, MM thinks what did happen should be kept secret so it can be used as an element of surprise in 2008. Whatever that means. Personally, I'm ready for an element of surprise on 1/3 when the country goes back to work. Maybe it will all be made clear before I go completely gray.
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emcguffie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-04 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #55
85. Surprise won't work, they will still
be counting the votes.

"And apparently, MM thinks what did happen should be kept secret so it can be used as an element of surprise in 2008. Whatever that means."

That's the problem. We will never be able to fix it until it is exposed.

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november3rd Donating Member (653 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-04 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
58. Does anybody really know? What evidence could he have cited?
Rolling Stone: Do you give any credence to these Internet conspiracy theories about the voting machines in Ohio?

Moore: Nah. And I don't have a double standard here. I've stressed since 2000 that Gore won the popular vote. Now, even if Kerry won Ohio, clearly more people across the country wanted Bush than Kerry. So there you go. Deal with it.

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AnarchoFreeThinker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-04 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. there's no way to prove fraud didn't occur when there's no paper trail
and we can't let them off the hook for this
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zann725 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-04 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
60. Yeah, but he was REAL quick to ask for votes for "People's Choice Award"
Thanks for the support, Michael!
We should write and remind him support is reciprocal!
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-04 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
61. Check out this part of the interview...
Do you think a possible good outcome of Bush winning could be that more people, particularly young people, are becoming radicalized?

I'm confident that's what will happen. I hate to think that that's a good thing, because it means over the next four years some people, many people, are going to have to suffer. But, you know, my hope was that young people would get out and vote, and they voted in record numbers. I don't know why that story hasn't been told. It was the largest turnout of eighteen- to twenty-nine-year-olds since eighteen-year-olds were given the vote in '72. And it was the only age group where Kerry got the majority.

Did you buy the whole red-state/blue-state story line that came out of the election, or do you think it's more of an urban-rural divide?

It is more urban-rural, and we have become and are becoming a more urban country. So this is not a problem that we will have for a long time. For now, we need to send care packages to the pockets of resistance in the red states, to help them out. And, you know, we should just do what they did in California, where they had a ballot initiative for stem-cell research. Instead of trying to convince red states that that's important, let's just do it ourselves, and when we find a cure for Alzheimer's and things like that, sadly, we won't be able to help your parents or grandparents in the red states. We'll just take care of our own people. We'll raise the minimum wage, like they did in Florida on a ballot initiative. We'll just do the things that we need to do. And I think that we can create a good life for ourselves in the blue states.


Can't argue with these sentiments... :)

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garybeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-04 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
62. LET'S WAKE THE SLEEPING MICHAEL MOORE GIANT
It's not too late to change his mind. Obviously he hasn't looked at all the facts.

Let's fill his email, snail mail, fax machine, with FACTS. Start with Angry Girl's 20 Facts, and the SolarBus "Election Fraud in the USA: Facts every American should know". And so on.

I'm assuming most people already have links to those docs and more, but if needed I'll add URLs.

Just because Michael Moore and Al Franken and those types are not on board now, doesn't mean they won't be tomorrow. We need them.

Gary
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garybeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-04 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. how's about a petition to Michael Moore?
Now there's a thought
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mattclearing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-04 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #63
65. Based on the links at his site
I think he's aware of the possibilities, like I said above. I also think F911 proved he likes to pick his battles.

People who have seen his speaking engagements know that there is a difference between what he suspects, what he believes, and what he reports.

I posted this because I was surprised that he would say this so bluntly, and of course, because it seemed relevant to this forum.
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garybeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-04 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #65
66. but something doesn't jive
it's just weird that he could at least be aware of some of the issues and conclude that "bush got more votes".

it makes me think he's inside the proverbial Stealth Bomber that Kerry is flying.

Maybe just wishful thinking. But I have to say that one of the weirdest things about this whole escapade is not the lack of media attention but the lack of attention from people you'd think would be all over it, like Howard Dean, Franken, Moore, the Democratic Senators.... Either these people are uninterested, don't have guts, or something is going on that we don't fully understand.

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Lone Pawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-04 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #66
72. Or, y'know, maybe we're wrong and they're right.
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emcguffie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-04 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #66
84. What about Maher? Him too.
He said Bush got more votes. Are they all conspiring? To keep quiet about it?
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zann725 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-04 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #63
74. Good idea! He was TOTALLY out of line asking for OUR votes for him
when he is NOT defending OUR Presidential votes.

Really disappointed. Given his visability, his comments and disregard for the problem is extremely damaging.

Shame on you, Michael!
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emcguffie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-04 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #62
82. I sent him some evidence
I sent him a note, first, offering to send him info. Then I just sent it anyway. I think we need to shove it down peoples' throats. Make them look.

I ask strangers in Starbucks what they think of the election, and they all think it was ... possibly stolen. But none of them have any awareness of what is going on.
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krag Donating Member (25 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-04 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
67. Why Michael Moore is an Idiot
The Kerry campaign did not campaign to win the NATIONAL vote - all of their resources were focused on winning battleground states.

To say, "well, yeah, even if Ohio was stolen Bush won the popular vote" is just stupidity and is exactly the kind of myopic, flippant nonsense I've come to expect from Moore.

Message to Moore: you suck. Oh yeah, and for not mentioning Israel once in F 9/11 why don't you reissue "Dude, Where's My Country" without the dedication to Rachel Corrie? You dishonor her memory with your cynical, ass-kissing horseshit.
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BreakForNews Donating Member (241 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-04 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
68. 'Dude, Where's your Brain Cell?'


Fintan Dunne, Editor
http://www.BreakForNews.com
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tsuki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-04 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #68
70. This is the kind of thing that Al From advocates. I saw MM on CSpan
talking to college students when he was ill. He pushed for the movement. He gets books written by ReThugs that call him a stupid, fat, white guy, and now he's supposed to speak for us when we can't even acknowledge what he did.

If he shilled for the Repubs, like Coulter, Limbaugh and O'Reilly, they'd fall over themselves to praise him.
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Lone Pawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-04 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
71. Which is more likely?
Christ, y'all are fickle. Look. Moore hates Bush more than any of us do. He's more in the loop than any of us are. You think he doesn't KNOW about this shit? Guys, he wrote TWO BOOKS AND A MOVIE on Bush's frauds. What, he just gave up? No.

Come on, guys. Which is more likely:

SET A: ALL MUST BE ACCEPTED (SOME WILL BE EASIER TO ACCEPT THAN OTHERS)
1. Bush stole Ohio.
2. John Kerry, who spent the last two years of his life working 12 hours a day to become president, gave up, because he really doesn't care.
3. John Edwards, whose political career went from being DNC Wonderkind to being on the verge of 'over,' didn't say anything, because he's positioning himself for '08 and didn't want to sound like a nut.
4. MoveOn, which poured millions of dollars into the greatest grassroots fundraising-advertising machine ever created, is actually a bunch of weak whores who don't care.
5. America Coming Together, which pioneered innovative use of the internet, doesn't care.
6. Al Franken, who wrote a NYT #1 bestselling book on lies and fraud, and who for three hours a day rants gloriously about lies and fraud, doesn't want to jump on what would be the biggest fraud of the century.
7. Michael Moore, who wrote two NYT #1 bestselling books on lies and fraud, and who made the most successful documentary of all time talking about lies and fraud, doesn't know or doesn't care about the biggest fraud of the century.
8. The MSM, which is nothing but a pack of whores looking for a cheap story, feels like passing up on all this evidence.
9. Keith Olbermann, who looked into it, was forced away from it by MSM Evil Overlords, despite his denials.
10. Rolling Stone has a conservative bias, since it called theories of conspiracies found only on the internet "internet conspiracy theories," despite ample evidence that the editors are actually flaming lefties.
11. Despite more national newspapers endorsing Kerry than Bush this year--and despite more Ohio newspapers endorsing Kerry than Bush this year--not a single national newspaper feels like running a serious story on this.
12. The DLC finds the position of powerless minority far easier to work within for their whored-out agenda than the position of having the white house occupied entirely by their whores.
13. Which all boils down to Everyone is Crazy or Evil but Us.

OR

SET B: ALL MUST BE ACCEPTED.
1. Bush won Ohio based not on fraud but instead on lies during the campaign season, and thus won re-election legally, though immorally.
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mimitabby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-04 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
73. MM is just one guy... n/t
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-04 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
75. why is that bad news?
so one filmmaker answers in a way you don't like. So what?

By the way, what stands out for me in what you posted is how bad RS's question sucked. Why not ask Moore about the valid stuff that is happening regarding the election, for example the Conyers hearing?
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-04 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
78. Moore may be a brilliant filmmaker....
but I don't think he has a deep understanding of electronic voting issues.
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Jersey Devil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-04 07:33 PM
Response to Original message
81. Hey Lurker over at the Moron Board
Read this upside down:

370HSSV-0773H

:hi:
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