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Dean is going to preach Jesus to move to the center?

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ringmastery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 10:41 PM
Original message
Dean is going to preach Jesus to move to the center?
yuck.

Drudge says:

Presidential contender Howard Dean tells Thursday's BOSTON GLOBE that he's a 'committed believer in Jesus Christ' and he expects to increasingly include references to Jesus and God in upcoming speeches... Developing Hard...
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
1. Drudge is often wrong. nt
nt
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 06:46 AM
Response to Reply #1
82. dear reader...as you travel down this thread. please note the posts
Edited on Thu Dec-25-03 06:46 AM by bearfartinthewoods
that are so full of doubt at the thought of dean using religion to pander to southern voters and then watch the spin as they learn their candidate stands with God.....does someone have the url for the thread in which clark is castigated for going to church?

Seeking a new emphasis, Dean touts his Christianity
Southern campaign plans to increase religious references
By Sarah Schweitzer, Globe Staff, 12/25/2003

MANCHESTER, N.H. -- Presidential contender Howard B. Dean, who has said little about religion while campaigning except to emphasize the separation of church and state, described himself in an interview with the Globe as a committed believer in Jesus Christ and said he expects to increasingly include references to Jesus and God in his speeches as he stumps in the South.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #82
139. I think as the actual piece showed...


Folks were right and the drudge spin was BS.

Dean said he'd mention more about his faith as he spoke in the south... and nowhere did he say anything abotu moving to the right as drudge claimed.

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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #139
155. the move to the right is a given
anyone with any political acumen knows that. the question is how artfully can dean do it and the answer is obvious.

hint...when one reaches the point where one must pander, it's really really important to try and make it seem sincere and natural. to do that it is best NOT to announce your intentions to commence pandering in the papers.
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #155
172. Dr. Dean's "Elmer Gantry" revival tour. I see definite similarties.
Edited on Fri Dec-26-03 06:30 PM by oasis
Hucksterism is so unbecoming.
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windansea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #172
175. and so obvious! n/t
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kerry-is-my-prez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #139
165. Where Dean admits he will move to the right....
http://www.isreview.org/issues/32/dean.shtml

"Back in February 2003, Dean candidly admitted to Salon magazine that if he were to win the nomination of his party he would "probably dispense with some of the more rhetorical flourishes. One time I said the Supreme Court is so far right you couldnt see it anymore. Next summer I wont be talking like that. Its true and Im not ashamed to have said it, but it doesnt sound very presidential."6


http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/6336151.htm?t...
Garrison Nelson, a Vermont political analyst, thinks Dean can move toward the middle - because that's his instinct. Nelson said: "I've known him 20 years. Howard became a liberal six months ago. Up here, he never got any kind of visceral response from liberals. I couldn't count more than 10 people who would've walked through fire for the guy.

"He was always a man of the middle, what we used to call a `Rockefeller Republican.' His father and grandfather were stockbrokers. He comes from old money. So has he really changed? Or is the Democratic party desperate to be in love with somebody? I think they're desperate to be in love."

McMahon, the Dean consultant, is happy to talk about Vermont. He said, "Dean balanced 11 state budgets - and it's not required there." He is pro-gun rights and pro-death penalty. He usually favored big business in environmental disputes. And he once said of welfare recipients that if they "had any self-esteem, they'd be working."


http://www.isreview.org/issues/32/dean.shtml
Though he has been dubbed a "raging liberal" by admirers and critics alike, Howard Dean governed Vermont strictly within the framework of the conservative Democratic Leadership Council.

Many people on the Vermont left see Deans current posture as politically motivated. "The notion that he is a liberal is ludicrous to those of us who worked with him in Vermont," said Terrill Bouricius, a former state representative.4 Dean admits that he recognized early on that the popular anger at Bush is "a raw energy, an energy that I know could be channeled."5

-snip-

But such political maneuvering is nothing new for Dean. Upon becoming governor of Vermont in 1991, after the sudden death of then-Republican Governor Richard Snelling, Dean made a sharp turn to the right and pursued that course ever since. In his 11 years as governor, Dean would shift rightward on one position after another, all the while claiming to be concerned for the needy and less-fortunate, and disappointing all who thought they were getting someone who would govern from the liberal end of the political spectrum.


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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
129. So is Dean
perhaps more so. RE: original post- double yuck.
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SahaleArm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
2. That should work...
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silverweb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 10:46 PM
Response to Original message
3. I don't think so.
Edited on Wed Dec-24-03 10:47 PM by silverweb
He's run a completely secular campaign from the beginning and his wife is Jewish. Don't expect him to start preaching any kind of religion.

Drudge. Consider the source. :eyes:

On edit: Typo.
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ringmastery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. this isn't drudge
Edited on Wed Dec-24-03 10:48 PM by ringmastery
It's Boston Globe. Drudge usually gets tipped off by stories before they hit the presses.

Watch for the article before you say it's bullshit.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Oh the boston herald
Sorry that is little better.
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ringmastery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Boston Globe
It's Boston Globe. I made a typo.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. I did check and it is still him saying they will say
If and when I see it then I will respond.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #10
24. Where did you see it at the Globe?
?
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. I didn't
I went to Drudge's site and Drudge says it is there. Which means were are dealing with his credibility which is non existent.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #25
56. Oh, he does that a lot.
Sometimes they pan out, sometimes they are just meant to get traffic. Thanks.
:hi:
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kerry-is-my-prez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #25
166. Here's the article....

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2003/12/25/s... /

Seeking a new emphasis, Dean touts his Christianity
Southern campaign plans to increase religious references
By Sarah Schweitzer, Globe Staff, 12/25/2003

MANCHESTER, N.H. -- Presidential contender Howard B. Dean, who has said little about religion while campaigning except to emphasize the separation of church and state, described himself in an interview with the Globe as a committed believer in Jesus Christ and said he expects to increasingly include references to Jesus and God in his speeches as he stumps in the South.

-snip-

The move is striking for a man who has steadfastly kept his personal life out of the campaign, rarely offering biographical information, much less his religious beliefs. But in the Globe interview, Dean said that Jesus was an important influence in his life and that he would probably share with some voters the model Jesus has served for him.

"Christ was someone who sought out people who were disenfranchised, people who were left behind," Dean said. "He fought against self-righteousness of people who had everything . . . He was a person who set an extraordinary example that has lasted 2000 years, which is pretty inspiring when you think about it." He acknowledged that he was raised in the "Northeast" tradition of not discussing religious beliefs in public, and said he held back in New Hampshire, where that is the practice. But in other areas, such as the South, he said, he would discuss his beliefs more openly.

-snip-

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silverweb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #4
50. I didn't exactly say it was bullshit.
You probably saw me say that about something else in another thread, which I did earlier.

However, now that you mention it...

I do think it's bullshit!

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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #50
176. what is bullshit?
druge's alert or dean's pandering?
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WiseMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #3
26. Guess Search is Ended: Explanation for Dean Rise is Found
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 07:07 AM
Response to Reply #26
86. and God came to him in a dream and said
son...i have given you a 20 point lead in NH..time for you to give back!


well 2/3rd of the God, guns and gays strategy is in place. he has embraced God and guns, let's see what he intends to do about gays...
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polpilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #86
127. Jesus Christ on Faux News now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Says he's going with Dean!!!!
Dean '04...
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #86
140. The god, guns, and gays strategy?


Why must anti-Dean folks work so hard to misrepresent statements from Dean unless their attacks would not stand without distortions propping them up?
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #26
134. $$$$$, not Jesus. It's what really invigorates campaigns.
I'm sorry that your candidate is so lacking in this area that he's had to hock his house.


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caledesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 02:48 AM
Response to Reply #3
69. Dean supporter here. I don't want to hear about religions from Dean.
It would really disappoint me.
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 06:51 AM
Response to Reply #69
83. be prepared to be disappointed.
he is following leiberman's lead.

"Dean, 55, who practices Congregationalism but does not often attend church and whose wife and children are Jewish, explained the move as a desire to share his beliefs with audiences willing to listen. His comments came as a rival, Senator Joseph I. Lieberman of Connecticut, chastised other Democrats for forgetting "that faith was central to our founding and remains central to our national purpose."

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/dean/arti...
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retyred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #83
106. Wow! You want to be the man you have to play like the man
So dean now has found Jea...sus, well good for him. He has evolved/morphed in so many ways to be all things to all people, at some point someone has to ask, is there anything he won't do or say to become President. My guess is "NO"

I'm sure most supporters will find the found again dean a much better choice than the found again bush while ignoring the similarities that will present themselves with his new found calling.

While I semi-admire his new attempt to level the playing field against bush, I doubt very much such a move will have any impact at all since the right has pretty much locked up the born again vote but we'll see.

I guess hypocrisy really is bipartisan after all, Nader's "no difference" quote may come to pass.



retyred in fla
good night Paul, wherever you are

So I read this book
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #106
108. the thing is, religious people aren't fools
Edited on Thu Dec-25-03 10:34 AM by bearfartinthewoods
the one thing that comes across with bush is his sincerity about his religion. it has been part and parcel of him from day one, in every speech he's made.

we'll see if they perceive dean as a poser....
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Dianne Maire Donating Member (11 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #108
159. Bush's religion
And Bush is certainly religious. He may be sincere about 'his religion' but his actions are a total contradiction of any faith I'm aware of. God is not the author of confusion. It's too bad more of the religious right don't see the inconsistency.
Mr. Bush is taking America down the path of old Europe i.e. the crusades and inquisition. He calls it 'the war on terror'.
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AntiCoup2K4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #108
160. Bush isn't sincere about his religion (or anything else)
The bastard openly mocks nearly every commandment in the Bible. (so far he hasn't been caught in adultery yet) Questions about the man's possible illiteracy aside, I seriously doubt Junior's ever read the Sermon on the Mount.

As far as "religious people" being fools, some of them obviously were to believe that Junior was a follower of Christ to begin with. They aren't fools simply because they're religious, but for some of them, their misconceptions of the Shrub were probably aided by their pastors who might have been pushing their own political beliefs onto the congregation. Pat Robertson's been printing his "fair and balanced" Christian Coalition Voter's Guide for years.
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #160
177. ok...how about 'consistant'
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #106
142. Dean did not just suddenly become relgiious....


He simpyl has not talked mch about his religious views, and says as he moves intot he south he'll talk more about it.

Why is this such a big deal? Oh yeah, because Dean's beating your guy.


Speaking of your guy... who said this.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3607144

And I think that we as a Democratic Party have got to appeal and recognize the importance of a spiritual dimension.

And I certainly do. I do pray. I do believe in the good Lord. And hes been a very important influence in my life. And Im not afraid to say that.
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virtualobserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #69
103. it won't disappoint you
Edited on Thu Dec-25-03 08:53 AM by virtualobserver
he is calling the right wing on their self-righteousness.
He will show that their policies contradict the teachings of Christ
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 10:52 PM
Response to Original message
7. double yuck. religious pandering is the worst.
I hope he doesn't. I am not talking about if he actually is a religious man I just think its a tacky thing to do for political gain.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 10:52 PM
Response to Original message
8. john kerry
john kerry wants to bring the religious leaders of the world for a conference. i think the good people of very different religions may end up having more in common than the bad ones which only condemn other rather than do good or better themselves.
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windansea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 10:52 PM
Response to Original message
9. Captain Dean tacks to the right
don't worry he just evolving!
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. and blumenthal beats his wife
and Clinton fathered a black child, and the Secret Service saw Clinton get bj's from Lewinski. These are all 'scoops' from drudge. FTR they are all false, one hundred percent false.
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windansea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. guess we"ll see tomorrow
80% of the time he is right...and this sounds like an inside the Globe source

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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 07:11 AM
Response to Reply #11
87. suggestion for the dean people...never go out on a limb for this man
never make any definitive statement until a few days have passed and you get the revised script from headquarters.
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polpilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #87
110. I've been 'out on a limb since 12-02 with Dean' .been a helluva nice ride!
I've had no surprises with Dean but accept that he's not 'polling before he speaks' and am fascinated by the continued lack of understanding of the man. Genius statesman unconcerned with whiner long term politicos. This is the peoples' campaign and, as a Dean supporter, I expect more whining next month...next month...

Dean '04...
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 07:43 AM
Response to Reply #110
156. not polling before he speaks?
all last week i knew something was up and publicly wished i could see dean's internal polling. now the new polls come out re religion and dean announces he will start mentioning God and Jesus.

it's not that he speaks without polling. it's that he speaks without thinking that is the problem.
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #87
135. suggestion for Dean detractors - get used to caboose service.
It's not real fun traveling back there, but what can we say...you had the choice of what ticket to buy at the station.

Teeeheeee.


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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #135
171. well since w're heading for a trainwreck
Edited on Fri Dec-26-03 06:14 PM by bearfartinthewoods
i guess the caboose is a good place to be
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windansea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #171
174. heeeee!!
:nuke:
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #11
109. all false...except for this one.
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 06:56 AM
Response to Reply #9
84. isn't evolving another word for being reborn? or is it just pandering?
Edited on Thu Dec-25-03 07:09 AM by bearfartinthewoods
"He acknowledged that he was raised in the "Northeast" tradition of not discussing religious beliefs in public, and said he held back in New Hampshire, where that is the practice. But in other areas, such as the South, he said, he would discuss his beliefs more openly.


so sayeth howard brush dean the third who is now thinking about Jesus
and wants to share his thoughts with us all....
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TheWebHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 11:10 PM
Response to Original message
12. if he cites a newspaper source
I've never seen him be wrong on the actual story. It's his internal stories that are often gossip.
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Donna Zen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 11:18 PM
Response to Original message
14. I'm sure we will soon find out.
And it will be branded as "brilliant" and perfectly wonderous.

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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #14
34. It's already starting!
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. Oh really
I have the boston globe site up now and you know what isn't there. This Dean story.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. I wasn't referring to the story.
I was referring to the "oh, this is such a wonderful strategy" talk, which has already commenced.
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SahaleArm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #36
38. LOL: Dean praises God - The Christmas Day edition
Who's next on the pander train?
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. Show me the story
I have the site up and have repeatedly checked it for the last hour and a half. It has updated to today and still no story. So put up or well you know.
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SahaleArm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #39
45. Christmas Day edition - Is today Christmas day? n/t
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #45
49. Yes it has updated
look for yourself. BTW it is 12:36 am in Boston and here too. www.bostonglobe.com BTW that is what I meant when I said those all so confusing words the site has updated.
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SahaleArm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #49
52. The date as of midnight has been updated...
I doubt they've finished the published edition for printing.

Only AP stories as of 12:45 am:
http://www.boston.com/news/politics/primaries/
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #52
53. It is today's edition
and of a holiday paper. The stories should be and probably are done by now. Their breaking news section had changed. Let's face it Matt the liar is Matt the liar.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #53
57. I don't see anything except about Dean's records.
:shrug:
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SahaleArm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 02:59 AM
Response to Reply #57
71. Let the panderfest begin
Edited on Thu Dec-25-03 02:59 AM by SahaleArm
Seeking a new emphasis, Dean touts his Christianity

Southern campaign plans to increase religious references

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/dean/arti...
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #71
136. "Begin"? Clark started it at the Harlem Baptist Church!
But I must say, the photographer got Preacher Wesley Clark's good side. I think they should have photoshopped in some sunlight behind him though...for effect.


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SahaleArm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #136
141. Pandering is coming out of the closet on Christmas day and finding Jesus
Edited on Thu Dec-25-03 06:02 PM by SahaleArm
What a joker - and yet you are faulting Clark for partaking in normal Church activities, unlike the pander-and-run Dean.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archi...
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Kahuna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #141
149. LOL. How soon they forget.
Just last week Clark was bad.. bad! because he attended a Baptist Church. Suddenly, and predictably .. it's different when "our guy" does it.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #36
43. Oh really show me the posts
there are some praising an interview he gave on CNN but I have seen nothing praising this non existent story.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #43
46. As the newest member of the Dean campaign once said,
"Seek and ye shall find."

Hint: Look for the post that said one of the "other candidates" looks like he has HIV. Classy one there.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #46
51. As vile as that post is
it actually only said if he worships Christ which Dean has previously said. It was at one of the debates.
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amyforclark04 Donating Member (24 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 11:21 PM
Response to Original message
15. After the TNR article
I'm not surprised that he's again pandered to get your vote....this time by reaffirming his faith. So Dean's a born-again? Right.

Because it's really true...If he doesn't show a conviction in God, he'll be hardpressed to attract voters who look for a church going person.
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #15
59. Amy... your facts are incorrect
Amy, you used the word "pandered." Dean would have to have been proven to have said something pandering. He has not. There is not Boston Globe story saying anything remotely similar to what is being claimed.
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mike from ri Donating Member (214 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #59
144. like mike dukakis' tank
it just serves to make dean look contirved and insincere
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 03:10 AM
Response to Reply #15
74. NOW you can say "pandered."
The link to the Globe article is on like post #70. He sure pandered alright.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
16. I doubt that.....he called them Pharisees. Wait till it is clarified.
That does not sound like something he would say. He has said he is a deeply religious person, but he is against people playing politics with religion. I think there is more to that.

Quick definitions (Pharisee)

noun: a member of an ancient Jewish sect noted for strict obedience to Jewish traditions
noun: a self-righteous or sanctimonious person
MORE:
pharisee
noun
1 Pharisee a member of an ancient group of Jews, written about in the Bible, who believed in obeying religious laws very carefully and separated themselves from the ordinary people

2 DISAPPROVING a person who thinks they are very religious, but who does not care about others
(from Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary)

I still have the tape. He was talking with Judy Woodruff on Monday. She hushed up about religion.
http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0312/08/ip.00.html

SNIP..."WOODRUFF: At the same time, Governor, I'm sure you know the Republicans are already starting to talk about the fact that you -- I think by your own acknowledgment, left the Episcopal Church in some dispute over a bike path, and you switched to another denomination, the Congregationalist denomination.

They're asking what does this say about the depth of your commitment to your own faith?

DEAN: You know what it really says? It says the Republicans are talking like they're out of the Pharisees. Because if you're a Christian, you're a Christian. I don't believe it ought to matter what kind of a denomination you are.

As a matter of fact, if you're a religious person, you're a religious person. I don't think it ought to matter what religion you are.


So people who talk like that are what Jesus would call the Pharisees. And I think that's enough of that kind of stuff in the Republican Party. We are all in this together, whether you are a Christian, or a Jew or a Muslim or a Hindu. And there's plenty of all to go around in this country....."



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Neoplatonist Donating Member (99 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #16
28. Basic Logic Shows Us There Is A Creator
Even the medievals knew it. This is what Moses Maimonides the great Jewish philosopher of the 12TH century wrote in his The Guide for the Perplexed, Chapter LXXI, p. 111:

"The universe is either eternal or has had a beginning; if it had a beginning, there must necessarily exist a being which caused the beginning; this is clear to common sense; for a thing that has a beginning, cannot be the cause of its own beginning; another must have caused it. The universe was, therefore, created by God. If on the other hand the universe were eternal, it could in various ways be proved that apart from the things which constitute the universe, there exists a being which is neither body nor a force in a body, and which is one, eternal, not preceded by any cause, and immutable. That being is God."

We all know the Big Bang was the beginning of the universe. Therefore, Moses Maimonides was right: the universe was caused by another; for no beginning can cause itself; the universe is no exception.

I think being paranoid because people believe in God and express it openly leads one not only to hopelessness and despair, but also to atheism--a stifling, personal subjectivist belief system. Clinging to the objectively existing world of temporal illusions that constantly change their forms through growth and decay is no way to live. Belief in God is a good thing, not bad.

I am a Wesley Clark supporter; however, Howard Dean has ever right to express his faith. There is a God; that is obvious to anyone with half a brain. No beginning can cause itself, including the universe.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #28
32. You are right.
And it is funny to me that people actually believe Drudge's interpretation. Dean's wife and children are Jewish, and I doubt he would use either in his campaign.

It is just silly. I know what he means about his own religion. I am that way with mine now.
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seventhson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #28
99. Read "Before the Big Bang" by Dr. Ernest Sternglass
One of my favorite human beings.

He says that the conditions which led to the Big Bang required 4 physical conditions to occur simultaeneously giving birth to the universe.

The odds of these occuring in such a way as to give rise to all the consciousness, life, and matter in the universe from a point of origin less than one ten-trillionth of an inch in diameter (virtually invisible) is so remote that the only rational explanation is that it was an "intended" act.

Something made it happen and it was a focussed energy with consciousness.

The way I look at it the fact that I have consciousness is proof that consciousness and "intent" pervades the universe and "the creator" must be at the root of all consciousness: this is no accident.

If consciousness exists now, then to say it was in existence (and came from or through the Big Bang) at the time of the Big Bang is not that big a leap.

While the possibility exists that it was all a cosmic accident (with no conscious intent bringing it into being) the scientific odds are against it. The probability of it being an accident is so minute that scientifically it is negligible.

Thus science demonstrates almost indisputably the existence of "a creator" or a creative intelligence which designed this experience (for Our pleasure, apparently).

Merry Christmas

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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 07:17 AM
Response to Reply #16
89. and the part in the quote that explains that NH people
are privately religious but now that he's heading south.....?????

and this isn't using religion for political purposes?
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Mr.Green93 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #16
94. matthew 7, 1-5
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 11:28 PM
Response to Original message
17. this is one of the sillier sleazball lies Drudge has told
:eyes:
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 07:19 AM
Response to Reply #17
90. this is sooo sweet...
"this is one of the sillier sleazball lies Drudge has told"
Posted by Cheswick
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 11:28 PM
Response to Original message
18. I don't see anything at the Globe. Link?
I just did a two-day search, and I must be missing something.
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Orangepeel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 11:34 PM
Response to Original message
19. Dean's a congregationalist
whatever that means. I assume it is a form of protestantism. It's okay with me if he says he believes in Jesus, as long as congregationalists are supposed to (at least on Christmas).

I'd be surprised and disappointed if he started including religious references in upcoming speeches, unless they are inclusive and prefaced by the idea that the government ought to keep its nose out of people's souls.

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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. UCC or United Church of Christ
a very good church.
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White Mountain Donating Member (103 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #19
27. No big deal
Jesse Jackson been doing it for years and it plays well in the south.
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 11:40 PM
Response to Original message
20. Dean: I thoroughly disapprove of people who use religion to inflict pain
on others.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2091322 /

--Yay Dr. Dean!
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Good statement.
SNIP..Chapter 10: Pre-President Dean. He defends the Bush daughters: "I know that several thousand kids every year get caught with fake IDs." And he defends his wife's decision not to participate in his presidential campaign: "The notion that the wife is going to be dragged along in the wake of her husband's career is something that should have been left behind decades ago." Six sentences on religion, including "I'm a fairly religious person though I don't regularly attend church or temple," "I pray just about every day," and "I also believe that good and evil exist in the world, and I thoroughly disapprove of people who use religion to inflict pain on others."


He would never use his religion as a political tool. He is too contemptuous of those who do.


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bitchkitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #22
29. I love this guy -
Every attack always uncovers the best about him. I haven't felt this good about a candidate in a very long time!
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #29
64. I almost cried when I read that statement. This is what I have always
believed religion should be, about love not hate, about helping people, not hurting them.

I had disavowed Christianity even though I did grow up reading bible stories and praying every night because the only Christian leaders I see are the ones on TV who are constantly condemning people.

But I read the article below and I almost think I could believe again. In any case, Howard Dean has given me this option when I was so cynical about religion.

http://www.prospect.org/print/V14/10/franke-ruta-g.html
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silverweb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #22
55. Thank you, dkf & madfloridian!
I knew our Dr. Dean wouldn't use religion as a political tool!

Thanks for reminding me that I must buy and read that book.

:hi:
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #20
91. well then shame on dr dean!
cause i'm laughing so hard my sides are killing me!!!!
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amyforclark04 Donating Member (24 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 11:46 PM
Response to Original message
23. Pharisees
Edited on Wed Dec-24-03 11:46 PM by amyforclark04
were the first Rabbis, so to speak. When Christianity split from Judaism, the Pharisees were viewed as the "Jews" and the Christians were viewed as the "Jews who started worshipping Jesus"

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #23
30. Uh, not really. More to the term now than that.
I disagree.
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SahaleArm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. More on Pharisees
One of the two great Jewish religious and political parties of the second commonwealth. Their opponents were the Sadducees, and it appears that the Sadducees gave them their name, perushim, Hebrew for separatists or deviants. The Pharisees began their activities during or after the Hasmonean revolt (c.166142 B.C.).

http://www.bartleby.com/65/ph/Pharisee.html
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #33
60. Hard to call them political parties.
There wasn't a lot of voting in the Roman Empire.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #23
62. Dean says Republicans need to stop acting like the Pharisees....hypocrites
A post by madfloridian:
Quick definitions (Pharisee)

noun: a member of an ancient Jewish sect noted for strict obedience to Jewish traditions
noun: a self-righteous or sanctimonious person
MORE:
pharisee
noun
1 Pharisee a member of an ancient group of Jews, written about in the Bible, who believed in obeying religious laws very carefully and separated themselves from the ordinary people

2 DISAPPROVING a person who thinks they are very religious, but who does not care about others
(from Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary)

I still have the tape. He was talking with Judy Woodruff on Monday. She hushed up about religion.
http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0312/08/ip.00.html

SNIP..."WOODRUFF: At the same time, Governor, I'm sure you know the Republicans are already starting to talk about the fact that you -- I think by your own acknowledgment, left the Episcopal Church in some dispute over a bike path, and you switched to another denomination, the Congregationalist denomination.

They're asking what does this say about the depth of your commitment to your own faith?

DEAN: You know what it really says? It says the Republicans are talking like they're out of the Pharisees. Because if you're a Christian, you're a Christian. I don't believe it ought to matter what kind of a denomination you are.

As a matter of fact, if you're a religious person, you're a religious person. I don't think it ought to matter what religion you are.

So people who talk like that are what Jesus would call the Pharisees. And I think that's enough of that kind of stuff in the Republican Party. We are all in this together, whether you are a Christian, or a Jew or a Muslim or a Hindu. And there's plenty of all to go around in this country.
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #62
98. isn't it hypocritical to hide your light under a basket up north
but to let it shine, let it shine, let it shine south of the Mason Dixon line?
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eileen_d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #98
152. roflmao
I'm probably on my way to hell right now...
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 12:01 AM
Response to Original message
31. Would you prefer he not be Christian?
I think this is funny that anyone on DU is criticizing Dean for being a Christian and not being ashamed of it. What is the world coming to?
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #31
151. Surely you have seen Christians criticized on DU, MF?

It happens all the time, always has. Perhaps now that Howard Dean has decided that touting Christianity in the South is politically wise strategy (since we didn't buy his Confederate flag meme), Dean supporters will stick up for all Christians being criticized for their beliefs here at DU? I will certainly be looking for all Dean supporters to back me up whenever the next round of Catholic bashing hits.
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #151
157. Dean supporters will stick up for all Christians being criticized ???
thank you for the laugh. i rarely use the LOL because i only use it when i actually do LOL. but this one was just tooo good!!!

i won't hold my breathe though, waiting for this new religious tolerance to hit DU.
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #157
162. Religious tolerance at DU would be welcomed by many,

but I'm afraid this is about Dean, not about religion. I'd be happy if Dean will bring religious tolerance to DU at last, or at least an end to posts that apply the F word to churches and even to the name of Jesus.
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kerry-is-my-prez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #157
167. Poor Dean supporters. Confederate flag: now good. Guns: now good
Things that are now good:

Death Penalty
Politicians talking about Jesus and religion
Welfare reform
Guns
Cutting social programs
Having a personality like Bush's (angry, can't get along with others)
Southern racists
Kow-towing to Corporations
Giving Tax Loopholes to Enron
Corporations winning out over the Environment
NAFTA
90% increase in funding to prisons
Being pro-prosecution
Snowmobiles in Vermont: good (they're bad in Yellowstone though)
Cutting taxes excessively
Taking money from energy companies
Waffling and flip-flopping
Being wealthy/rich
Speaking at a country club that bans blacks and Jews
Cracking down harshly on drug abusers


Now bad:

Gun control
Campaign finance reform
Affirmative Action
Being pro-environment
Medical marijuana
Methadone clinics
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 12:27 AM
Response to Original message
37. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
SahaleArm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #37
41. Yikes - Spoken like a true Dean follower n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #37
44. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Donna Zen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 04:30 AM
Response to Reply #44
77. Actually the entire thing
Clark a wuss? And Liebermann may not be for me, but damn the man was a "freedom rider."

Millions from lobbies!

Talking oneself into believing this is very dangerous.

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mikehiggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #37
47. If you worship Christ, one more reason not to post things like that
Wasn't it Christ that talked about seeing the mote in your neighbors eye rather than the beam in your own?

Clark looks almost like he has HIV?

I'll bet Dean is really glad he has folks like you supporting him.

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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #37
48. what are you thinking?
"I love his robust and healthy appearance, unlike Clark's emaciated face, almost like he has HIV."

I just can't believe you wrote this. So much of your post is great but this just defiles it with pooh and I don't mean Mr. Hanky either.
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Jerseycoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #37
58. "unlike Clark's emaciated face, almost like he has HIV"
Are you a Dean supporter or a Stop-Dean supporter?

Way to go. :freak:
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 04:34 AM
Response to Reply #37
78. "almost like he has HIV"
Shame on you. If it weren't for the rules here, I'd say a lot worse.

I've held the hands of people dying of AIDS. They didn't look like Wesley Clark.

I hope your xmas sucks.
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OKNancy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 07:06 AM
Response to Reply #78
85. If anyone wants me to e-mail the picture of Clark
in his swim trunks.....I'll be happy to do it.
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OKNancy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #85
100. Ah heck...let's give it a try
Edited on Thu Dec-25-03 08:26 AM by OKNancy
too big....sorry


http://www.freepgs.com/oknancy/Clarkbeefcake

then type.jpg after above link
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seventhson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 07:49 AM
Response to Reply #37
95. You should edit this insult out
Edited on Thu Dec-25-03 07:49 AM by seventhson
"like he has HIV"

Very unChristian and just so unnecessary.

Clark IS gaunt and even almost a little unhealthy looking.

but Dean is funny looking (just ask Jon Stewart who makes fun of his neck and goofy grin every chance he gets)

So the f*ck what.

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maddezmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #37
97. What a horrible thing to say about a person
Clark looks like he has AIDS. Doesn't sound like Christian behavior at all. And I doubt the dr would be happy with that remark from one of his supporters. sick
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ldoolin Donating Member (642 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
40. Good
Not that there's anything wrong with that.

The right wing had been getting away with using religion as a wedge issue to attract people to the Republican Party for too long. Reviving religious liberalism and making it clear that the Republicans don't have a monopoly on religion is long overdue.

Dean's a member of the Congregational Church, which is pretty liberal as Protestant denominations go.
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Gloria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 12:31 AM
Response to Original message
42. OH, please....
I'll make sure not to listen...I could listen to Bush if I wanted to hear this sort of stuff.
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jsw_81 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 12:50 AM
Response to Original message
54. I'm an atheist
But I don't have any problem with Governor Dean discussing his religion. From what I've read, Dean considers religion a private matter and belongs to a very liberal (pro-choice, pro-gay Unitarian style) church. And remember, Dean's wife and children are Jewish.

Go Dean go!
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imhotep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #54
65. if it is a private matter
then I expect him to keep his fucking mouth shut about it.
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poopyjr Donating Member (251 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #65
66. Why? I think people should know some private stuff
about a man who could potentially be the leader of the free world.
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uhhuh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #66
67. lol
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 07:27 AM
Response to Reply #65
92. expectations are dangerous things with dean.....
he's heading south with PRAISE on his lips!
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #92
137. Um, he's beating Clark in the South by a 3:1 margin
Merry Christmas.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 01:23 AM
Response to Original message
61. Good. (n/t)
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BobbyJay Donating Member (450 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 01:30 AM
Response to Original message
63. Jesus is alright with me <nm>
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GH0ST Donating Member (18 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 02:46 AM
Response to Original message
68. Link
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chocolateeater Donating Member (685 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 02:57 AM
Response to Original message
70. Here is the link
to the article in the Globe: http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/359/nation/Seeking_a_...
It looks like he's just going to talk about his personal religious beliefs more than he has been.

"''Christ was someone who sought out people who were disenfranchised, people who were left behind,'' Dean said. ''He fought against self-righteousness of people who had everything . . . He was a person who set an extraordinary example that has lasted 2000 years, which is pretty inspiring when you think about it.''"


There, before nearly 100 parishioners, Dean said in a rhythmic tone notably different from his usual stampede through policy points, ''In this house of the Lord, we know that the power rests in God's hands and in Jesus's hands for helping us. But the power also is on this, God's earth -- Remember Jesus said, `Render unto God those things that are God's but unto Caesar those things that are Caesar's,' '' a reference to Jesus's admonition that the secular and religious remain separate.

Dean continued: ''In this political season there is also other power. Not as important or as strong as the power of Jesus but it's important power in the world of politics and the world of Caesar.''
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windansea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 03:04 AM
Response to Reply #70
72. gag alert
more "you have the power"

excuse me while I barf.....
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 03:07 AM
Response to Reply #70
73. Yuck.That's awful.
My apologies guys. That's just wretched.
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ringmastery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 04:01 AM
Response to Reply #73
75. my god
Dean sounds just like Lieberman with the religion.

This is revolting.
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incapsulated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 04:12 AM
Response to Reply #70
76. Jeebus give's Dean the POWAH!
ick, I'm sorry folks... I actually don't have a problem with candidates speaking about religion, but trying to tie Jesus Power with Dean's slogan "You have the Power" is, well, crass.
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #76
93. my opinion of you, as if it matters, just jumped 1000%
because you are man or woman enough to apologize.

of course, now you will have to report to the camp for an attitude adjustment.

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moz4prez Donating Member (591 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 05:01 AM
Response to Reply #70
79. frikkin shameless
GOP doesn't have a monopoly on religion, but Christ on a bike, that's just another tawdry "POWER"-play
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James T. Kirk Donating Member (916 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 06:11 AM
Response to Reply #79
81. That's why He needed a bike path!
:D O8)
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moz4prez Donating Member (591 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #81
132. haha, Dean's going to summon Christ on a ten-speed
to backpeddle out of this one!
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #70
123. How dare Dean quote Jesus or find inspiration in Jesus!
And on Christmas Day no less!
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White Mountain Donating Member (103 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 05:30 AM
Response to Original message
80. Dean offers Jesus VP slot!
Dean offers Jesus VP slot!

Hey, if it works! Afterall, Alan Colmes makes it clear Jesus was a liberal.
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seventhson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 07:15 AM
Response to Reply #80
88. Anybody But Jesus?
Dean's beliefs are valid and his statements sound pretty damn good to my ears.

It is much better for a candidate to say what he believes when it does not sound like Bush's growling "Kill terr'ists for Jesus"

Dean's Christianity sounds like an honest,compassionate and and righteous faith as compared with Bush's brutal death religion.

Frankly, from my perspective Dean and all of America is up against the greatest evil humanity has ever seen (what else could be said about the financial/corporate fascist powers - the BFEE - who financed Hitler and the Holocaust) and we can certainly benefit from efforts to have some divine powers on OUR side - and acknowledging these powers as well.

Dean needs protection and we all need deliverance from evil.

If Dean practices what he preaches instead of being a hypocrite like Bush et al, then it can only really be a good thing that he is saying this.

If he is a real Christian as he says then he is pretty much kind of obligated to say so.

Jeez, the way some folks put it Dean's statements are provoking an ABJ reaction.

I personally think the concept of WWJD is pretty sound as Jesus was an avowed peacemaker and not a demonic warlord like Bush would seem to have us believe.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #80
130. Dean/ Christ could never beat Bush! Vote Clark!
;-)
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Romberry Donating Member (632 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 07:50 AM
Response to Original message
96. Well...no. Not exactly. Dean is speaking of the Jesus...
Edited on Thu Dec-25-03 07:59 AM by Romberry
...that cares for the poor and downtrodden, not the vindictive pro-war prosperity gospel Jesus of the fundy-right. Don't get caught up in spin.

From the Boston Globe article:

In the Globe interview, Dean said that Jesus was an important influence in his life and that he would probably share with some voters the model Jesus has served for him.
"Christ was someone who sought out people who were disenfranchised, people who were left behind," Dean said. "He fought against self-righteousness of people who had everything . . . He was a person who set an extraordinary example that has lasted 2000 years, which is pretty inspiring when you think about it."

He acknowledged that he was raised in the "Northeast" tradition of not discussing religious beliefs in public, and said he held back in New Hampshire, where that is the practice. But in other areas, such as the South, he said, he would discuss his beliefs more openly.


I don't see how anyone can have a problem with this. It looks like just another excuse for Dean bashing to me. Frankly, if there were more people with Dean's liberal vision of Christ in the Southern churches and fewer prosperity gospel/the poor get what they deserve/how dare you come into my church in those threadbare clothes types, I might still be a regular church-goer myself.

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virtualobserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #96
102. he isn't ceding the "holy" ground to the right
he is calling them on the fact that they don't actually follow the teachings of Christ, they wave him like a flag and wrap themselves in him.
It is about time that someone stood up to them.
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #96
153. How many Southern churches have you attended?

Unless it's a substantial number, over several denominations, you have no right to say this:

"Frankly, if there were more people with Dean's liberal vision of Christ in the Southern churches and fewer prosperity gospel/the poor get what they deserve/how dare you come into my church in those threadbare clothes types, I might still be a regular church-goer myself."

There are good churches in the South, and I'm confident that there are bad ones in other regions of the country as well.

Dean is sadly mistaken to think that this will work any better than his Confederate flag gaffe.
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 08:34 AM
Response to Original message
101. dean's favorite verse
An ABC/Washington Post poll released this week showed that 46 percent of Southerners said a president should rely on his religious beliefs in making policy decisions, compared with 40 percent nationwide and 28 percent in the East.
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neuvocat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 09:06 AM
Response to Original message
104. Well this is certainly amazing.
After Dean was being touted as such a leftist all this time his supporters are justifying the same sort of shift to the right that George W. Bush made once he entered the White House.

Dean will fail in this regard of course because he is campaigning on an idealism long-associated with republicans. Voters will see little, if any difference to Bush.
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Jerseycoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #104
105. I was looking forward to this Christmas morning
To see how this one would spin. Coming along nicely. :eyes:
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Romberry Donating Member (632 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #104
107. Do you have a reading comprehension problem?
Shift to the right? LOL!! Funny stuff.
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Myra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #104
138. Why is he coming out so early?
I don't understand why he's tipping his hand this early,
as an un-lib'rul, un-progressive, when he already had so
many fooled.

Serious question, for real...why?
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #138
170. Why he's "coming out early"-- He's sane, ambitious, and wants Bush gone
Myra wrote:
"I don't understand why he's tipping his hand this early,
as an un-lib'rul, un-progressive, when he already had so
many fooled. Serious question, for real...why?


I think it's timing. He thinks he's got the nomination sewn up, but he's a smart enough politician to know he's got to do better in the South, even in the primaries, if he's going to stand a chance in November. He's not as blindly arrogant as we Clarkies like to pretend.

So I think he's positioning himself toward the center now, before the majority of the country knows who he is, so that it won't look awkward when he jags to the center after the convention. It's smart politics. It's also probably sincere.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
111. Dean's God Guns & Gays Comment Coming Home To Roost
Dean's efforts will lay an egg.

Face it, Dean/Trippi are running a less than stellar campaign.

Other than using the internet to drum up money and a core of upper middle class white voters and starting 2 years early (actually Dean's been running for Prez since beoming Governor), their campaign fails to impress.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
112. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
chocolateeater Donating Member (685 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #112
114. So deeply held religious beliefs
are nutty? Maybe we should go around to all the churches this morning with strait jackets and butterfly nets and put them all away!(sarcasm off) :grr:
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White Mountain Donating Member (103 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #112
116. The guy's a fruit cake.
And Clarke is not? Making up VP offers, hoping parties opportunistically, changing positions every other day.

POT...Kettle...Black.

Dean has Gore's support.... deal with it.
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kerry-is-my-prez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #116
168. Sorry - Dean is the one lying about the VP offer.
A former Dean campaign person now admits that an offer was made...

When it comes to credibility and telling the truth - I choose to believe Clark over Dean any day.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 11:03 AM
Response to Original message
113. This is an excellent article, and shame on you guys using religion.
http://www.boston.com/news/politics /

I find this unconscionable, that this thread is using Dean's religion against him.

SNIP..The move is striking for a man who has steadfastly kept his personal life out of the campaign, rarely offering biographical information, much less his religious beliefs. But in the Globe interview, Dean said that Jesus was an important influence in his life and that he would probably share with some voters the model Jesus has served for him.

"Christ was someone who sought out people who were disenfranchised, people who were left behind," Dean said. "He fought against self-righteousness of people who had everything . . . He was a person who set an extraordinary example that has lasted 2000 years, which is pretty inspiring when you think about it."

He acknowledged that he was raised in the "Northeast" tradition of not discussing religious beliefs in public, and said he held back in New Hampshire, where that is the practice. But in other areas, such as the South, he said, he would discuss his beliefs more openly...."

Let's see, it's ok for Bush and Lieberman to discuss their beliefs openly....but just not Dean. Right? Is that what you are saying?

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zeemike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #113
117. 
Dean is smarter than they think he is
He is not conceding religious morality to the RW but taking it to them.
And he has all the ammo he wants just by quoting Jesus himself
Jesus today would be a flaming liberal way to the left of Kucinich.
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PatrioticOhioLiberal Donating Member (456 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #113
118. No one gives a rats patoot
about Dean's religion actually.

On the other hand, everyone should care about...(Dean)said he expects to increasingly include references to Jesus and God in his speeches as he stumps in the South.

I'm sorry, this is a blatant case of using and abusing a position in order to pander! Play it down where you don't think it plays well, play it up where you think it will play.

I will not say that Dr. Dean doesn't have faith...but I do question his reasons for showing it.

Jesus didn't just mention it where he thought it would be popular now did he?

I would find it hard to trust a person who uses these tactics.
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kerry-is-my-prez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #113
169. We've been all over Bush's case AND Lieberman's case about this
for months.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #169
173. CNN covered this today quite well.
They made a point of saying that Dean preferred to keep his religion private, but he felt necessary to respond to Lieberman's criticisms that religion was not being used enough.

I prefer to keep my religion quiet as well, but I would discuss it if I had to when attacked.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 11:33 AM
Response to Original message
115. Here is there sole example
Just how much Dean will inject religion into his campaign, Hess said, remains to be seen. He pointed to an appearance at an African-American church in Columbia, S.C., as an example of what voters might hear in the future.

There, before nearly 100 parishioners, Dean said in a rhythmic tone notably different from his usual stampede through policy points, "In this house of the Lord, we know that the power rests in God's hands and in Jesus's hands for helping us. But the power also is on this, God's earth -- Remember Jesus said, `Render unto God those things that are God's but unto Caesar those things that are Caesar's,' " a reference to Jesus's admonition that the secular and religious remain separate.

Dean continued: "In this political season there is also other power. Not as important or as strong as the power of Jesus but it's important power in the world of politics and the world of Caesar."

end of quote

How dare he mention Jesus in a church. How dare he tell the people there to render unto Ceaser what is Ceaser's. How dare he be a Christian even though he doesn't go to church all the time. Shame on him.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with this. Not a thing. He is crystal clear about what the role of Jesus is and what the role of Ceaser is. This isn't 'preaching Jesus' by any stretch of the imagination.

I didn't address the supposed change in tone due to the fact this reporter seems tone deaf. The things cited about Gephardt and Lieberman were both clearly wrong. Any debate watcher knows that the point of Gephardt's story is that health insurance is good not God, and Lieberman doesn't go out of his way to remind voters about the Sabbath.
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askew Donating Member (162 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #115
120. Thank you
Thank you for your response. I just got done reading the Boston Globe article and I can't believe all of the hoopla over Dean discussing his beliefs while in church. While he is a religous person, he obviously is not comfortable discussing it publicly. So, while he will be talking about it more in the south is politically motivated, I don't think it is pandering. Because unlike Bush* or Lieberman, he is not attacking other candidates for their faith or trying to appease ultra-religious voters who want religion in our government. He is just discussing some of his religious beliefs, while at church or when it may be appropriate to make voters more comfortable with who he is as a person.
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windansea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #115
121. when is Dean's rap
record coming out???
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #121
126. Maybe after the photos of Saddam wearing Dean buttons?
oh wait....that was just a dumb CARTOON....I forgot.
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windansea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #126
147. you mean this one??
the one that ran in the Los Angeles Times??

eat up!!

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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
119. I think
you will hear something about religion from all the candidates; or from whichever wins the whitehouse. There are a large number of religious voters. Even those who want to keep state and church separate know that beliefs are an integral part of the person, and they will want to know what the candidate believes.

While I don't care much for Dean, I don't think I can hold this against him. At least, not unless he all of a sudden becomes one of this guy's flock:

http://denverbiblechurch.org/docs/LiberalsHateHolidays....

For the record, here is a quote on religion from my candidate, Dennis Kucinich:

The current administration is ideologically bent toward Christian fundamentalism. General Boykin's recent comment about a Muslim warlord - "I knew my god was bigger than his" - went un-condemned by the White House. Is religious extremism in the White House causing a problem for America?

I think that we should pray for the people in the White House, or not, depending on our religious disposition. This approach of 'my god is bigger than your god' is, shall we say, unsophisticated, lacking in common sense, and provocative. It is not mindful of the founders intention that this country achieve a separation of church and state. On the other hand, the founders never wanted us to be separate from spiritual values. It is very unspiritual to claim that anyone has cornered the market on ancient wisdom, on metaphysics, on transcendence, on paths to redemption. So, I think that we should pray for these people.



http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/12/23/171559/76%20
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
122. Preview of Dean's next speech.
"Jesus Christ, that Bush is dumb."
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batman Donating Member (235 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
124. oh noooo not another clinton
:eyes:

i could swear i heard clark talk about the bible at the last debate?
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Jerseycoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #124
128. I don't remember if he talked about the Bible
He was asked if he was a Christian and he said, "Yes, I am."
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Myra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #124
143. Do you have a link and a quote batman?
I'd like to see it if you do.
(For real; I'm not being snide.)
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SahaleArm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #143
145. Nothing biblical - The spiritual dimension...
Edited on Thu Dec-25-03 08:40 PM by SahaleArm
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3607144

BROKAW: General Clark, let me ask you a question about the Democratic Partys connection to the so-called faith community in America.

The Economist recently quoted some statistics from the last election: 63 percent of the people who said they attended church weekly voted for George W. Bush for president; 61 percent of those who said they never went to church voted for Al Gore.

Is that any kind of a commentary on the Democratic Party and its connection to the growing influence of the so-called faith community in American politics?

CLARK: Well, I know that there are concerns about the connection. And I know that the Republican Party is working as well as it can and doing as much as it can to try to strengthen this connection.

But the Republican Party does not have the monopoly on faith in this country, and there are just as many Democrats who believe in religion, they go to church, they read the Bible, they say their prayers, they believe in God as there are Republicans. And I think that youll see that in this next election.

I think what you had in 2000 may have been unique. And I think maybe the president, President Bush, had a compelling personal story about that.

But, you know, there are a lot of people who have compelling personal stories. And I think that we as a Democratic Party have got to appeal and recognize the importance of a spiritual dimension.

And I certainly do. I do pray. I do believe in the good Lord. And hes been a very important influence in my life. And Im not afraid to say that.


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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
125. So bash Dean because he's a Christian now?
Amazing. Where was your outrage over the Harlem photo ops of ol' Wesley Clark testifyin' it up, hmmm?
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #125
131. that was in a South Carolina church I believe.
But your point still stands/
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #125
133. Not only that but he is a Congregationalist (i.e too white)
I'm sure he'll be bashed for that too.
Did you ever see the Onion article where the headline was something like, "Kunkleman family blasted for lack of diversity" Some of the attacks I see on Dean remind me of such outrageous headlines. Here we have a man who is simultaneously too liberal and Bush-lite according to what you would read here. It really makes you scratch your head sometimes.
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #125
161. i think this is the third time you have said that church was in harlem
and the third time you have been corrected on it.

i'm getting curious as to why it seems t be important that people think that church was somewhere it wasn't.
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windansea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 08:52 PM
Response to Original message
146. religious equivalent of confederate flag remark

He may as well have said he wants to appeal to the voters who have have fish stickers on the back of their Chevys.
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LizW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #146
158. Is there a limit on how many people we can put on ignore?
I'm just asking, because this thread may put me over the limit. :eyes:

Seriously folks, I think some are losing touch with everything this election is about. ABD has taken over.

EVERY Bushco scandal we have been waiting to come to a head is in the news at LBN this morning. But what are you doing? Tearing into Dean once again.

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windansea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 09:04 PM
Response to Original message
148. karma kameleon goes bush-lite

the main point I see in this whole episode is the further exposure of Dean's chameleon-like posing on issues...and he even admits it...he's going to start mentioning God more now as he stumps in the south...if he did this all the time it would be believable and authentic...professing your faith to win a certain block of voters is pathetic pandering...
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arewethereyet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 11:42 PM
Response to Original message
150. go south, talk up Jesus
good plan if southerners are stupid.

I find the I have lost respect for him over this.
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 02:28 AM
Response to Original message
154. Dean will never win over conservative Christians

with a little "Jesus talk."

It is, they believe, every Christian's duty to witness about Christ to others. A man who claims to be Christian but is not "born again" and, worse, allows his Jewish wife and Jewish children to continue on a sure path to Hell without attempting to convert them, is not going to be looked on with favor.

Less conservative Christians will see this as the same-old same-old politician's pandering to get the religious vote.

But no doubt thousands of Dean supporters are undergoing religious conversions as I write this so it's not a total loss! :7 He'll win those votes for sure!



I think I may have discovered the key to why some Dean supporters are so irritating to the rest of us. It's because we've never liked the bumper stickers that say: "God said it, I believe it, That settles it."


And now we hear: "Dean said it, I believe it, That settles it." :eyes:
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
163. That's not what he said
What's his name on C-Span read the quotes Dean made about Jesus, and as someone who balks at religious references and church-going posturing with politicians pandering, I was pretty impressed with Dean's views that Christ spoke out for the disenfranchised and against the self-righteousness of those who had everything.
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
164. So?
As long as he keeps it respectful, so what?

I'm a hardcore atheist, but from what I've seen, all his religious references have been tactful. Unlike other politicians who use being religious as prop (Bush saying Jesus is his favorite philosopher comes to ming. I doubt he could even name a philosophy of Jesus). Or "I go to the sabbath on Sunday, I'm so holy!" Lieberman.
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Loonman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 07:28 AM
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178. Dean will say anything to anybody
Then recant it later.
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