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Atman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 09:32 AM
Original message
The Four Pillars Of Any GOP Discussion
Print these, or memorize them. Keep score next time you read a Pro-Bush or especially, an anti-Dem article. It works virtually every time. Thanks to my buddy Timbuk3 for this...

----

1) Never, under any circumstances, EVER, for any reason, NO MATTER HOW MUCH EVIDENCE THERE IS TO THE CONTRARY, admit that what is actually being defended/promoted is wrong, EVEN IF YOU KNOW THAT IT IS. The importance of this cannot be over-emphasized.

1)A) At no time should you ever address the actual facts that are raised by your opponent.

2) "Liberals" and/or "Clinton" did/do it, too.

3) Shoot the messenger.

4) Use caricature to demean any and all who oppose you
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Jamison Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 09:36 AM
Response to Original message
1. About Clinton:
2) "Liberals" and/or "Clinton" did/do it, too.

This is getting old about Clinton. Are the neo-cons of the year 2050 gonna say "It's Clinton's fault!" too?
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Toots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Yes they will hell they are still blaming FDR as well
That is just what they do. They blame others. Arrested Developement for sure. They dream of being grown ups and stomp their feet and say we want the grown ups in charge but then they conduct themselves as children. Even their own people are starting to realize it. Lindsey Graham just said that they were all behaving as children. Adults in Charge indeed...
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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. You wouldn't be saying that, Jamison, if Clinton hadn't put you
up to it.

come on. confess now. Clinton made you post that message, and no matter what you say that is what I will ALWAYS believe.
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Gyre Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
3. Well, all of those are easily addressed.
1) Keep telling your repiglican opponent that they never answered the question.

2) you've been in complete power for 5 years, and you're still blaming 'liberals'? Why don't you grow up and learn to take responsibility?

3) you want to gag the sources who bring corruption to light???? "I can see why".

4) counter-attack: there is no repiglican on earth who isn't a body-double for some malevolent cartoon character.



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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. LIKE this! I like this a LOT!
GREAT responses/counter-punches!

Everyone please take note.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Gyre, these points ought to be on 3x5 cards in every teevee Dem's pocket
This one's a keeper!

:thumbsup:
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
6. one more 5) conflate anything not radically right as "socialism/
communism".

For example, if a local government doesn't privatize some service then it is communist - EVEN if, for example in fla., the privatized efforts over charge the govt, provide worse services, and require the govt to do the work over due to the subpar job of the private company.
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Jeff In Milwaukee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
8. Fifth Pillar
Hillary is a lesbian...
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
9. My strategy: attack, attack, attack
NEVER let them change the subject to Clinton or the UN or anybody else. Just say "This is all about what the Bush Administration has done. Don't change the subject, much as you feel you need to." Have your list of attack topics in your head and tick them off one by one. It's got to be rat-a-tat-tat. That is all they understand. Beat them into the ground. The only way. And never give in to any point they make.
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CANDO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 06:30 PM
Response to Original message
10. Try counting how many times they utter "libruls"
I had a nice point/counterpoint discussion with one of my Teamster brothers, who is a religious fundie based conservative republican. I let him get away with it for awhile until I couldn't stand it any longer. I swear he referred to me as "librul" in nearly every sentence he uttered. I finally said enough is enough. It is an already established fact that yes indeed, I am a liberal and a very proud one at that, so you can stop your Gush Limpjaw bravado by dropping your insinuated put-down use of the word. I told him we liberals are just that and damn proud of it so they can stop the attempted redefinition of very good and wholesome word. I also pointed out that I don't make a point of uttering the word "conservative" a hundred times over in the place of making an intelligent contribution to a decent conversation.
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Cats Against Frist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
11. I've written on this before -- all carefully crafted logical fallacies
and false binaries, designed to appeal to the totalitarian mindset. The four pillars are as follows:

1. "Style over Substance" fallacy -- neither address the argument, nor come up with a counter argument. Instead of attacking the speaker, straight out, however (ad hominem), attack the timing, tone, delivery or vehicle of the message, i.e.:


"You can't speak out against this war WHEN we have soldiers on the battlefield."

"How can you say that about the President WHEN we're at war.

Any time they whine about "HOW DARE THEY SAY THAT," or, as in another post, "They're DESPERATE," is also style-over-substance -- only not exactly style, but the fact that the Dems chose to question Herr Fatland at all.

2. The "False Dilemma" fallacy -- "you're with us, or you're against us." "If you don't support the the war, you don't support the troops." "Osama and the Democrats are working together, because they agree on some points."

3. Appeal to emotion -- what calling anything not radically right "communism" is, is actually an appeal to emotion -- to short-circuit the critical thinking process, and immediately revive either patriotic or fearful constructs. Appeals to "saaaavvvee the faaaammmmillly," (Rick Santorum), all attempts to score points off of current soldiers or veterans, "culture of life." All the fake outrage, etc.

4. Appeal to authority. This authority being "right wing culture," as an entity -- the core 'murican values -- this is an attempt to circumvent critical thinking, as well -- and determine the authoritative demands of patriotism, citizenship, family member, community member, parishoner, etc.. I often call this "magical thinking," because this authority actually relies on constructs and myth.


There are more -- but these are the main ones -- designed to lull the idiot mind into obedience, and tamp down all inquiry, investigation or critical thought.
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ginnyinWI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
12. Funny, I made up a list like this of my own today, too
Standard GOP defenses:

1. Smear the source: "this person/source is obviously only acting out of partisan political interests and wants to bring Republicans down."

2. Smear the source, part deux: "this is not a credible source--not an American media source, etc. etc.--this source has been discredited already, etc."

3. Nothing new here: "there's nothing new to see here, folks. It's all been out there for months, and there is nothing to it. Move along, now."

4. But we're at war! "why does the liberal media hate America? How dare they attack the president in a time of war!!!"

5. Long live the emperor! "the president won the election by a landslide. The American people have spoken. They obviously approve of what he wants to do. Bush has been duly elected, so leave him alone!
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MojoXN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Rightist "debate"...
Edited on Sat Jun-04-05 09:52 PM by MojoXN
I'm gonna have to think of some...

MojoXN
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snippy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 08:13 PM
Response to Original message
13. There is only one thing to say to republicans. HOW FUCKING STUPID ARE YOU?
For the last few months I have made only one comment to my republican acquaitances and friends. The comment actually is a question. No matter what the topic of their current rant may be be, I just ask:
HOW FUCKING STUPID ARE YOU?
This sometimes offends certain people like my mother or a Nun or two, but it is a legitimate question given the fact thar our country is under corrupt one party control.
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quaoar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 08:22 PM
Response to Original message
14. In any argument with a Republican
bring up the deficit. Throw it in their faces -- "I thought you conservatives were prudent with taxpayers' money."

Then bring up nation-building -- "So, what country are we going to spend $200 billion on next?"

Then talk about the troops -- "Good thing Halliburton spend those hundreds of millions of dollars in no-bid contracts providing armor for our troops. Oh wait, they didn't!!!"

Then talk about activist fundamentalist government -- "Good thing we have the government now to tell us when it's OK to die."

Then throw out Tom DeLay -- "I'll give DeLay credit. When he is bought off, he stays bought off. Those sweat shop factories in Saipan got their money's worth from good ole Tom."





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merbex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
15. You've summed up their MO nicely
These 4 points should be Dem Talking Points regarding Repugs
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MojoXN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 09:54 PM
Response to Original message
17. Some Rightist tactics for starters...
1. Sidetrack debate - When your opponent is making good points, or otherwise besting you, bring up an unrelated issue and refuse to discuss anything else.

2. Poison the Well - Plant forged documents, covertly float easily disproved allegations, etc. against your candidate, and attribute them to your opposition.

3. Assert as fact statements that cannot be proven or disproven. For example, "Saddam's WMD's were moved to Syria."

4. Assert as fact statements of questionable veracity under the rubric of "everybody knows". For example, "Everybody knows that Iraq has WMD's"

5. Bully your opponent into submission. Use any and all methods of verbal attack to fluster your opponent, and appear superior.

6. Be sure to keep complete control of the agenda. Refuse to discuss issues for which a broad-spectrum Repulican talking point has not been formulated.

There are more, I'll post 'em if I get around to it. Adios for now!

MojoXN
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