Some people think that because we're the democrats and against the war means we hate our troops or something. I just want to see it. How do most people on here feel about them? I don't support this war, but I don't want them to die. In fact, just about every person against the war I know talks about the idea of bringing them home "alive".
2. I have a world of respect and gratitude for them.
They are not in Iraq because they want to be. They are there because that is where their country has ordered them to be. They are honorably performing the duty they have been given. Whether that duty itself was honorable is not something that the troops have the legal right to question.
That said, there are a few bad apples as there are any group.
3. They don't make the decisions. They have to follow the terrible decisions
this Administration makes.
Al Franken who is in Kuwait, going into Iraq, said all they have on in the camps is Faux, plus they get Rush on Armed Forces Radio, so I feel like this Administration and Military is doing everything they can to brainwash the men and women over there.
quite a few are hot to kill impoverished brown skinned people but there are others who were fooled by the nationalistic propaganda and thought they were doing the right thing only later to realize they've been had
my point is you can't comdemn or praise them categorically since every member of the military has a unique story.
5. I'm damn sick of all those yellow magnetic ribbons to tell
you the truth. It's mindless and I suspect most people's motivation for those is the same as wearing their religion on their sleeve, they want to pretend that they have cornered the morals market and want to lord (pun intended) it over on the rest of "pagan society". It doesn't really do a damned thing for anyone on either side in Iraq.
I have nothing personally against any of our troops, but I can't support their actions to invade a non-threatening country and kill unarmed civilians. In fact, I feel sorry for what they are doing to themselves when they do that. It doesn't matter that they were ordered to do it. That's the same excuse Hitler's troops had. - K
48. I didn't say anything about war criminals. Re-read my post.
If your standards are only those that are written down, then you have my sympathy. I don't think our troops are stupid and they weren't drafted (well, OK, some were for sure!). They know what they are doing, or SHOULD know, regardless of what the GC says. I don't need to look up chapter and verse in some legal document to know the difference between right and wrong (and I do recognize there are no absolutes). - K
51. I guess I should have offered more of an explination
Some organizations have used the Yellow ribbons for fundraisers...and the funds did not go to the troops....Companies making the ribbons are doing it for profit....and it is a proven fact they can ruin paint jobs...I support the troops...by doing everything I can to help bring them home. And I support as much as I can a family member who lost her son in Iraq..
I support the troops, not this war. But I too am sick of the yellow ribbon magnets that say "Support our Troops" or the red white and blue ribbon magnets that say "God Bless America". They make me so ill, I created my own bumper stickers.
"Support the Troops STOP VOTING REPUBLICAN"
"AMERICA, BLESS GOD (with peace sign)"
"Love, Peace, Tolerance... Support REAL Christian Values. STOP VOTING REPUBLICAN!"
I pulled up next to a car that was plastered with Bush stickers and those ribbons.
I asked out the window: "So, really, what does buying that ribbon actually do to help the troops? You should have offered to pay more taxes to get those boys some armour or sent the money directly to a slain soldier's family instead of wasting it on that."
They were too stunned to do much more than flip me off.
but I think that's a given in any group of people. Many, I think, are poor kids, many of whom are being brainwashed into a "vote Republican or die" mindset. This war is screwing with their minds. It's a way to take advantage of poor and/or minority young people who just wanted to go to college. BushCo doesn't give a flying fuck about any one of those men and women, or else they would have done everything possible to avoid war.
We have to have a military, it's just a fact of life. As such, soldiers perform a vital role in society. As much as I hate the idea of war, since we are such a visible nation in the world, we have to have means to defend ourselves.
That said, I believe one of the most fundamental things the government can do to support our troops is to not send them on frivolous and immoral wars. And furthermore, when it does deploy the troops, to make damn sure they are given all the tools they need to get the job done quickly, and with as few casualties as possible. Both of these things this administration his utterly failed at doing.
I like this quote from the current "The Onion"
"I'm so confused. In times of war, should I support the troops or the president?"
How is it play to take advantage of those less fortunate? We are a player because we beat the shit out of those we want to take advantage of. This is so wrong.
Our need for a grossly overbuilt military is justified by the arrogant and selfish manner we project ourselves onto the world stage which is justified by the grossly overbuilt military we maintain.
We are way overdue for recognizing that this military we "support" is used to kill and maim and in no way protects us. It only serves to kill and maim others. And ourselves when we vounteer to participate in the charade.
But comparing the US to Costa Rica seems a bit naive to me. Costa Rica is a small nation of about 4 million that isn't really that involved in international politics. The US is, obviously, not in the same position. While I think the military is much larger than it needs to be, and is doing many things it oughtn't be doing, the fact is, some sort of military must exist.
For the most part it isn't the soldiers who wanted to attack Iraq, and most of those who were for it probably bought into the propaganda, and thought they were doing a vital service to the country. While I disagree with how the military is being used, and what they are doing, I recognize it's necessity. This is what I mean when I say I support the troops.
94. Perhaps for the same reason that Japan is rather unlikely to be invaded
Costa Rica, for better or for worse, is probably at least implicitly protected from foreign assault by the massive military power looming perilously close to them. Or perhaps they just aren't deemed worthwhile exploits. There are hundreds of possible reasons.
I am deeply opposed to the excesses of the military-industrial complex, and if I were in power I would cut millions in undue spending from the defense budget. But if you think that the industrialized world would have been better off in the past century without military, that the Soviet Union and other regimes were not at least somewhat mutually deterred from further brutality and conquest by that implied threat, you have an... interesting view of history.
I think most of our troops are fine people and probably more confused about why they are in Iraq than anybody. Now the few troops who get excited about killing people (such as the jerk in Farenheit 9/11) putting on his CD and dropping bombs--I have a problem with. But I think he is the exception and not the rule.
The film sure makes him look like a complete asshole, sure enough, but shit, it's hard not to be desensitized to your own destructive capabilities.
That guy's probably a decent enough guy in "real life," but he's in a situation where it's a struggle to stay sane and retain your humanity. Look at those kids who were involved/responsible for the Abu Ghraib abuse. They sure looked like about the biggest assholes on the planet, but the Stanford Prison Experiment demostrated that they could be anyone, even you or me.
But I DON'T WANT HIM IN pieces ta very much bush you fcking war criminal lying bastard.
The soldiers who are committing individual crimes should be held accountable, soldiers or not. If a soldier rapes or steals or tortures or murders, that's a crime. They should be held accountable as individual soldiers, and the GCs and Articles of War make that clear.
The soldiers who are obeying legal orders and defending themselves against attackers and who are NOT committing individual crimes are NOT war criminals, even though the invasion itself is illegal, and the GCs and Articles of War make that clear.
Not all soldiers are bad. Not all soldiers are good. They are individuals and should be held accountable based on their individual behaviour.
Or that's my opinion (and that of the GCs and the Articles of War.)
10. I'm sure there are many excellent individuals...
under the heading of 'our troops'... and some blood-thirsty ass-hats too! I imagine I would be cool with many of them and despise others.
Hard to generalize my feelings for people I don't personally know. Something I try to avoid.
Let's just say, just because they are soldiers in the U.S. military doesn't mean I like or dislike them. I want to bring them home alive. I feel that they have all been placed in harm's way to further the PNAC agenda (not to combat terrorism, liberate Iraq, etc...)
I refuse to slap one of those silly-assed ribbon magnets on my van... I have a peace sign and a yin-yang instead.
I do feel sorry for them, being put in an unfortunate position of having to choose between "following orders" and "doing the right thing." But haven't we heard that excuse before, say about 60 years back?
And while there would be consequences for making the more courageous decision to resist what may be "legal" but definitely immoral orders, I cannot give them a pass.
24. I live on the largest free military base in the free world
Edited on Thu Dec-16-04 01:06 PM by LynnTheDem
Most the enlisteds aren't anywhere near as gullable as some think;
A Military Times survey last December of 933 subscribers, about 30 percent of whom had deployed for the Iraq war, found that 56 percent considered themselves Republican - about the same percentage who approved of Bush's handling of Iraq. Half of those responding were officers, who as a group tend to be more conservative than their enlisted counterparts.
Among officers, who represent roughly 15 percent of today's 1.4 million active duty military personnel, there are about eight Republicans for every Democrat, according to a 1999 survey by Duke University political scientist Peter Feaver.
Enlisted personnel, however - a disproportionate number of whom are minorities, a population that tends to lean Democratic - are more evenly split. Professor Feaver estimates that about one third of enlisted troops are Republicans, one third Democrats, and the rest independents, with the latter group growing.
I think that more of them would support the Democratic party if they just knew that Democrats didn't hold grudges against them. There's a dumb rumor going around saying that Dems and people against the war have something personal against them. It's beens supported by a few idiots truly being hostile to them, but I don't think it's fair to let a few people speak for all of us.
having all my Bumper stickers and Yard Signs may get me yelled at by some , but to others it offers courage and Hope . I do live in a county that increased it Dem support from 59% to 62.4% I hope in some little way I helped .
of Bush and all his evil thieves. These were the kids who signed up with the Guard or the military after 9-11 because they wanted to protect this country. They're being convinced this is the best way to do it. They are being lied to. I don't blame the victims.
I support the John Kerrys over there, but not the Steve Gardners.
If they voted for BushCo and are now upset that they're over there without enough equipment on an illegally extended tour, I don't have a lot of sympathy. If they are over there boasting about shooting "ragheads," I have no sympathy whatsoever - if they are thinking and acting like thugs, they're nothing more than a common criminal to me.
It's a moral quagmire, I oppose the war, yet I'd rather have it fought by people that I trust to value human life and diplomacy.
I'm having the same issue right now with the selective service board application that's sitting on my kitchen counter right now. I don't want to be the person that sends a person to an unjust war, but I'd rather it were me than someone else.
26. Good question. I don't have a yellow magnet on my car.
Do I support the troops? For what? Occupying a country and carrying out an agenda that borders on the breaking of the Geneva Convention. I don't support that. Indiscriminately shooting civilians; I don't support that.
Being a brainwashed bunch of mostly lower middle class to lower Southern people who are not in the upper echelon of the critical thinking skills area makes it hard to support them, since in doing so, I'm supporting their superiors who, as we known, are greedly non-compassionate idiots. I support our troops doing their best to get the hell out of Iraq and muscle up enough brainpower to think for themselves. That, by the way, is not easy to do considering the Army's brainpower training regimens.
So, yeah, I support the troops. I don't support what many of them are doing.
"Being a brainwashed bunch of mostly lower middle class to lower Southern people who are not in the upper echelon of the critical thinking skills area makes it hard to support them..."
I'm not so sure about that. Most of the young people I know who joined the military did so because they were in a situation with no job skills, no money, and no prospects, and they joined up to get money for college and get the hell out of whatever town they grew up in. I don't think most of them are brainwashed either. I'd reckon that if you looked at the political beliefs of their families, most of their families are republican too. Most people I know did their time quietly, and still kept their basic cynical personalities.
The Marines are different. They're brainwashed, and they join the military not for college money, but to learn to kill people and/or be a badass. They signed up for shit like this, but it still doesn't mean they deserve to be killed in an unjust war.
There are a whole lot of us friends, lovers, family members who care about these soldiers individually and for us "support the troops" is not a silly jingle or a yellow ribbon magnet on a car. My son is one of those troops. I don't just support him; I love him. I want him home ALIVE.
I can understand anger and opposition for the war, and even for the actions they sometimes must take in war. I must support the court martial and criminal punishment of those who abuse and kill under the guise of their military service. But we should not get these issues all mixed up with the people.
Ask how I feel about Democrats? Some I love, some I can't stand, but I care about or criticize the person, not the Democratic party on their behalf. Same with most everything else.
The one thing I strongly believe is that the Democratic Party can and should define itself as it relates to this issue, instead of allowing the Republicans to condemn US while they ONLY "support the troops" by buying yellow ribbon magnets. Democrats even manage to serve in the U. S. Military instead of paying silly lip service to it!
I think most didn't sign up for what they're actually getting and I strongly support those who are just trying to do their best for their country. But I feel the ones who are abusing detainees, cutting the heads off pets, raping detainees, holding mock executions of kids, they can go to hell where they belong. Those things are evil and I don't see how that kind of evil can ever be excised from their minds.
I support each and every one of them. Take a poll of how many of them WANT to be in Iraq. I bet it comes back 10% "do", 90% "don't". They all have a common mission, Get Home Alive. I hold the Bush administration soley responsible for EVERY life lost in Iraq. I do not hold one single soldier responsible for a single death in Iraq, period. God love em' and I hope they come home soon.
most imporatantly, between the troops and their commanders. We should blame the commanders (in chief) not the average soldier, who has no choice in the matter.
Secondly, yes we have some rotten apples, but I believe they are in the minority, and the worst ones should be severly punished via the military court martial, not just for their crimes but for ruining the name of the good ones.
Thanks to the neocons/freepers/hate radio mongers -- ultimately they have tied, within some people's minds, a false binary to the word -- meaning, you either support the Bush administration and support the troops, or you don't support Bush and, therefore, you don't support the troops.
I prefer to think of the soldier. Who knows where he or she comes from. What his or her story is. It could be a wayward kid, who found discipline in the Army -- or not -- and he's an asshole to his fellow soldiers and enjoys imperial domination. It could be the man or woman who gives commands he or she disagrees with, or carries out missions that betray his or her own moral convictions. It could be a tormented soldier who hasn't heard from his girlfriend, or has just had a baby, or just had her mother die while she's in Iraq. It could be a soldier lying in a hospital bed, with no arms, barely conscious, destined to elicit hope, for a few brief moments, before he or she dies. It could be a middle class kid who signed up so he could get a degree in Social Services or for God's sake Recreation and he doesn't know why he had to be there, but he went.
Some of these soldiers know nothing. They don't know why they're there -- they don't have backgrounds in history or foreign policy, but they go because of duty, or because of a death wish, or because they had no where to go. Some of them are horrible people, some of them are weak, some of them will get caught up in atrocity, some will lead, some will enjoy it -- some will wake up sweating, someday -- saying "God, I'm sorry." Some will come home and nothing will have happened -- I'm back, I've soldiered, I'm sand. I did what I had to do -- and will watch football and will wave the flag, and will die fifty years from now, hating the neocons who put him there -- or she will die loving the cause still, because superiority is survival. Acquisition of resources, of position is a shingled roof, shiny slide, and an artificial heart, a trip to the moon. To the Victor goes the flatscreen, the Clapper.
Some are sorry they're there now. Some think they're doing good. Some ARE doing good. Some are scared. Some are sunburned. Some will come home and preach the glory of war to here CUTE and UNASSUMING ANTI-WAR neighbor who is simply trying to smoke a cigarette and admire her new Pacific Northwest Native American Windsock with the visage of a Salmon on it. Some will swim upstream, be sorry. Some are horrible fishes, who had no other water to go to, no land, just weeds, some will wave the duty, wake up a shingled roof. To the few brief moments goes the "God, I'm sorry." And it is muddy neocon, who is a broken limb, a broken moon, a dead moral conviction, a wayward slide -- a baby, barely conscious or a death wish.
I don't blanketly support anything -- except for various soft cheeses, experimental cinema and my own antibodies -- but I am thinking about the soldiers, all the time. What got them there, who put them there, what I can do to respect their memory. How I can fit respect for them into me, when I don't have respect for their mission. How I can honor their memory, when I feel that they are at the whim of men who have no honor. How I can forgive them. How I can thank them, for whatever it is that I should be thankful to them for. Which I'm still not sure that I know. Thank you for going. Thank you for occupying your role. You served it well. You did better than I would have.
Support comes at what cost? Speaking from personal experience, knowing that a portion of the people back home "supported" me didn't do me a damn bit of good. Protesting against the war, against the rash expenditure of military lives, now that would have meant something: at least it was worth your time, and it might make a difference. But those yellow stickers... guess what, we couldn't see them from the Middle East. If they make their owners feel better about themselves, then great, but don't get the impression that they're doing anything for me.
Are "the troops" important enough for you to enlist in the military? Are "the troops" important enough for you to spend money to buy one body armor? Are "the troops" important enough for you to make that a litmus test for voting (and for the democrats, I'm talking about Dean or Kucinich over Kerry)??
54. I feel like our troops have been used in an extraordinarily, shameful way.
I personally know young men and women who had signed up for the military after 9/11 because they felt they wanted to go to Afghanistan and find and kill Osama Bin Laden, who attacked us. Some troops of course did go to Afghanistan but just as many were manipulated into thinking there was a connection between what happened in our country on 9/11 and Sadam Hussein, and were sent to Iraq instead. We all know how that's going. The troops were lied to, and are still being lied to about the purpose of their mission there. They will come back broken physically, mentally, and spiritually, if they are lucky enough to come back at all, and they will be haunted forever by the things this criminal President has asked them to do in our name. It is heartbreaking to see how the troops have been used and abused by this administration. I want them home now. This war is a disgrace, and these poor guys have been asked to something they never should have been asked to do. When the truth finally comes out about this war, and I believe it will, there will be hell to pay. Instant Karma mr.*.
Hate the war, not the warrior. They were lied to just as we all were.
Others like doctors, lawyers, nurses those types of career fields have better motivations. Bring 'em ALL home! Even the gung ho killerjarhead types. America better with all the crazies! Nuts sluts and whores killers criminals they all have a place in America! America the land of the free and home of the brave... are we either?
They don't even know why they're there anymore, it's been so long. The causes and the rationales for this stupid war change so often that I really, genuinely feel bad for the troops, and I hope they can come home soon.
70. I speak out against this war BECAUSE I support the troops.
Edited on Thu Dec-16-04 09:45 PM by Bouncy Ball
To NOT watchdog the government, to NOT eye everything the government wants to do with the troops, to shut up when the government wants to use the military in an immoral and/or improper manner, is NOT supporting the troops.
They don't have the voice civilians have. For the most part, they have to follow orders. They can't march in the streets, scream and yell, sign protests, etc. They are trained to follow orders. They DEPEND UPON CIVILIANS TO WATCH *THEIR* BACKS, to make sure the government does not use them in immoral ways.
Imagine a country filled with freepers who just blindly agree with and trust in everything elected officials do with the military. That's just horrific. Elected officials do NOT always make the right decisions when it comes to the military that's a fact. And we HAVE to watch out for them. We HAVE to be their voice.
Signed, the wife of a vet
To add: watching how the government uses the military is not something you only do when YOUR party is in power, but all the time. That's another big difference between me and the freepers, I would guess.
Oh and my brother in law is there now. He voted for Kerry and does not agree with this war.
74. I deeply care about our service people....I HATE the pentegon and
the brass that rank above the "boots". They are the ones who plan wars, for good or for bad, while holding hands with their bosses: The prez. all from the comfort of their nice cushy offices.
Our system of military service is so fucked up. If a man/woman says NO I don't want to serve in "this" war (Iraq for example), they are threatened with the ruination of their entire lives.
They take the young and naive, promise them all kinds of shit, indoctrinate them with gung ho bullcrap. I understand they must be trained to "obey" and follow orders etc..but some of the stuff they brainwash them with is over the top and unnecessary: "God and Country", blood, gore, guts, and veins in my teeth, "Blowing stuff up is a good thing...and it's fun" :puke:
There is NOTHING rational nor humbling in the teachings of war and there damn well should be. They should be taught that they are about to go and KILL other HUMAN BEINGS and to be circumspect about that..be extremely mindful of these things and do all they can to avoid unnecessary killing.
There's no dishonor in serving one's country in the military if the cause is just....the dishonor comes via the Brass, with their ill fated "plans", and the "teachings of war" the way it is presently.
We know there are some rank and file military people who "like" the action, who believe America is the "Boss", who have effectively demonized their so-called enemy to make it easier to KILL and torture them; those who will follow blindly whatever is ordered.
We also know there are those persons who somehow retain their own humanity with sensibilities intact. These sorts HATE when they are sent on a fools errand and truely regret any mistakes they make; who probably want to go home and forget the whole damn thing; who might even wonder how in the hell they got themselves into their predicament and just want to get out/come home. <-------these are the one's I support and care for and worry about.
I also care deeply for those that dissent/bail out/mutany, as their lives will be hell (unjustly so) for some time to come.
Likewise, I respect the doctors and non-combat service people who are there to provide help and support to anyone that needs it.
In general, I care about ALL of their lives, as well as innocent civilians in combat zones. But when we go into ILLEGAL or ill planned, or unnecessary wars, I separate the "Wheat from the Chaff" in doling out my "support".
Finally, my "support" for the troops is better served in HOW WE TREAT THEM WHEN THEY COME HOME.
Going back to WWII, through Korea, Viet Nam, Persian Gulf/desert storm...several of my family members served. We are SICK of WAR. With Bush and the possibility of spreading wars across the globe, I worry now about my grandson. ENOUGH ALREADY!
My ex served in Vietnam and my oldest brother died in a training accident before he ever got there. One brother has a Commendation Award and retired out of the service. One sister served with distinction. If you go back in our family history, there are dozens of soldiers all the way back to 1653.
If there's anything I want, it's to support the soldiers who are on the line. I think the best way to support them is to get them out of an illegal, unwinnable war and bring them home alive.
As a former soldier I do have empathy for the hardships our troops face. I am mad as hell that Bush sent them to fight an unecessary and immoral war, without any real planning, and without the proper equipment.
on this mission. I sympathize with their position, and I wish them the best. I cannot, however, support murder. Again, this is not exactly personal against them, but it is my objection to the mission they are carrying out. Just my opinion.
98. I oppose the war, support the troops, and I think that serving your
country in such a way is a sacrifice that only a few are willing to make. Unfortunately, those that make that sacrifice are being taken advantage of by the administration, and it's despicable.
I couldn't imagine spending Christmas away from my family. You can be sure that my money will go to helping buy the military more supplies, not those ridiculous yellow ribbons that aren't even made in the US and contribute nothing to the troops.
I support our troops. But they are being asked to accomplish the impossible, and the strain is showing. The shockingly poor political leadership and subsequent lack of planning for what they (we) are now experiencing is tearing them apart. The fallout from this will be measured in years.
I not only 'support' the troops, whatever that means, but I 'support' everyone in the world. By 'support,' I mean I wish these people well, I feel sympathy for their suffering, and I try to engage their ways of thinking and understand their experiences; plus I try to enact those views in useful activity in the world. In addition to this, I support almost all volunteer warrior because most of them join such outfits as a way of standing in the riskiest possible place to defend what is valuable to them, thus relieving the responsibilities of others. I think, however, that this does not mean that in our interactions with troops that we must be entirely glowing. Many have been deceived or brainwashed by the guiding institutions of the western world, and the U.S. in particular, or by some other aspect of their lives, and people need to pushed to look deeper within themselves, very often, I think, members of the armed forces in particular. Status as a 'troop' should not be an exemption from probing questions. The stress to which they are subjected may be an important check on the extent of this type of dialogue at any given time, but in the long run such healing is needed.
I know that many went into the military seeking an education and that was the only way they could do it. I teach government at a high minority, low income school and many of my kids have joined. I worry about them every day.
The military here (Norfolk - lots and lots of military) have now started a program for teachers to do a "mini camp" at Camp Legune. They are encouraging teacher to recruit for them. I say HELL NO. If a student were to ask for my advice about joining now, I would have to say don't it. The recruiters are always asking to come into the government classes, but I do not want them in my room. I would feel responsible if /when something happened to one of them.
old line of crap. If you don't support the war, you can't support the troops. BS, plain and simple.
I didn't support the Viet Nam war either. Yet, I sent hundreds of pounds of food, books, personal hygiene products, etc., to a friend of mine to share with his fellow troops. I sent items that I figured most people would not think about. The boxes of Velveeta were an instant hit. Jerry told me he became a very popular guy on campus when the mail was delivered.
I would do the same for those in Iraq, but I don't know anyone serving there, and sending packages addressed to "Any Soldier" is not allowed.
Whether I agree or not with what the US is doing in Iraq is irrelevant. These men and women are serving their country, and they have my respect and gratitude. I just wish this joke of a president hadn't put their lives in jeopardy over a pissing contest with his daddy.
It's not their fault their commander in chief is an idiot. Most of them are just young kids trying to make a living or pay for college. I bet most of them don't follow politics too closely and really do feel they are "defending their country" and I respect that. I think they should be treated well, given everything they need to be as safe as possible, their families taken care of, including the reserve and guard the same as the regulars. I think they get the shaft a lot of the time regarding benefits and pay and deserve better. Look what they're paying the contractors!
But that aside, I cannot say I agree with the mission, even if it hurts someone's feelings. It was a huge mistake, it was just plain wrong and I'm not going to lie and say it wasn't no matter who calls me a traitor.
105. I want them home and out of harm's way, or at least to survive.
But they don't seem like American troops anymore to me. They seem to me like they're part of a Texas thugs private army. Sure you feel for them but it just isn't the same. Their death's seem even more tragic, as they're not really dying for America, just for president gas hee haw's militia.
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