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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-03 12:35 PM
Original message
The Pentagon Thread: Part 5.1
The original thread on the original DU 9:11 Forum was called
Post Your Pentagon Crash Questions Here.
It continued for nine threads each one containing a list of all the preceeding threads. This is the most recent:
Post Your Pentagon Crash Questions Here.
Part 9!!!!

Then DU upgraded to a new server.
The Pentagon Thread

The Pentagon Thread: Part 2

The Pentagon Thread: Part 3

The Pentagon Thread: Part 4

The Pentagon Thread: Part 5
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-03 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
1. The Pentagon Thread: Part 5
was disrupted by a barrage of personal attacks.
Therefore much of that particular thread was deleted.
Now, there STILL exists such a thing as FREEDOM OF SPEECH
and we ask that the exercise of this be respected.
If you have nothing but contempt for the posters here,
please cease and desist from visting this site.
You will not be missed.

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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
41. Kick
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-03 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
2. The Pentagon Floor
We have heard much about the Incedible Penta-lawn.
We have heard more about the Penta-Windows and the Mother Of All Walls.
We have even heard of the prowess of the Penta-closets.
And now it is time to discuss the attributes of the marvelous Pent-floor.

Initially, the concrete portion of the project was to be more time consuming. The heat from the airplane severely burned and dented much of the concrete, and the original plans were to tear up the entire floor and start over. When Paul Scheidmantel, Ardex Sales Representative, saw the site, he made the recommendation that contractors use K-15 instead, saving the Pentagon both time and money. ARDEX K-15 technology fills in all of the gouges and cracks and uneven surfaces to produce an even, level floor that is ready just hours after installation.
Faccina Construction, the general constructor for concrete repairs, made using K-15 a requirement in the bidding process. Ardex pioneered the technology, and enjoys an unmatched performance track record in the construction world. Lew Rea, Ardex Sales Manager, said that this project is one of the highlights of Ardex's extraordinary history. "The job had to be done fast, it had to be done perfect, and it had to be permanent...and it had to be ARDEX K-15," he said. "We have the track record of providing that. This project really confirms our position in the industry," he said. The finished product is 35,000 square feet of American pride.

With today's construction industry driven primarily by renovation and alteration, access to quality floor repair can be critical to an owner or tenant's satisfaction. Since its inception in 1979, Levelcrafters has been committed to floor renovation and repair projects EXCLUSIVELY.

Make a note of this sentence:
"The HEAT from the airplane severely burned and dented much of the concrete, and the original plans were to tear up the entire floor and start over."

Now, where did I get the impression that the actual BODY OF THE AIRCRAFT would cause more damage than the HEAT?

Impact damage on the first floor was extensive near the entry point of the aircraft. It is likely that the exterior first-floor columns from column line 10 to column line 14 were removed entirely by the impact and that the exterior columns on column lines 9, 15, 16, and 17 were severely damaged. Most probably, many or most of the first-floor interior columns in the collapse area were heavily damaged by impact.

The simulation suggests that the reinforced concrete column core will cut into the fuselage until the fuel depot reaches it, at which time the column is destroyed. /

Oh yes,
I must have thought that the fact that the columns were destroyed meant that the ground floor of the Pentagon was also badly damaged by the plane's fusilage and further harmed when all other the floors collapsed on top of that ground floor.
Silly me.
All they had to do was pour a layer of Ardex K-15 and they were good to go.
Isn't science wonderful?
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-03 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
3. Hani Hanjour was a very considerate man
He made sure that the plane did not bellyflop into the center courtyard and he minimized the damage to the Penta-floor so thoroughly that they were able to pour that stuff down and be done.

You would have thought that the columns might habe broken off in jagged clumps, or that they might have left stumps or column craters in the floor.
You might also wonder how they reconstructed the new columns.
I used to think that they would place the rebar or steel reinforcement, THROUGH the foundation.
Now I dunno.
But I do know that that Ardex K-15 is some nifty stuff.

Gypsum, latex patches, asphalt, coal tar, and lightweight insulating concrete are not suitable substrates for the installation of ARDEX K-15.
Concrete floors: MUST BE SOLID, THOROUGHLY CLEAN, FREE OF OIL,WAX, GREASE, LATEX or gypsum patching compounds, curing and sealing compounds, OR ANY CONTAMINANT WHICH MAY ACT AS A BOND BREAKER before priming with ARDEX P-51 Primer. Overwatered, frozen or otherwise WEAK OR CONTAMINATED CONCRETE MUST BE MECHANICALLY CLEANED TO A SOUND SOLID SURFACE by shotblasting, scarifying or similar. Acid etching and the use of solvents are not acceptable means of cleaning the substrate. .......
ARDEX K-15 can be installed from a featheredge to 1 1/2" in a single application, and up to 5" with the addition of proper aggregate. For installations exceeding 5", contact the ARDEX Technical Service Department. ......
ARDEX K-15 is not to be used as a permanent wear surface, even if coated or sealed. ARDEX K-15 must be covered by a suitable floor covering material such as carpet, vinyl flooring, ceramic tile, etc. For resurfacing and leveling indoor concrete floors in warehouses, storage areas, hallways, or other areas where a wear surface is required, use ARDEX SD-T Self-Drying, Self-Leveling Concrete Topping.

A. Installation of ARDEX K-15 must be by an applicator using mixing equipment and tools approved by the manufacturer.
B. Underlayment shall be able to be installed from 1/8" to 1 " in one pour and up to 5" with the addition of aggregate. It may also be feathered to match existing elevations.

So,does that mean that the holes in the Penta-floor only started out a depth of 1/8 of an inch?
And after sandbasting down to solid undamaged concrete, they only had nicks less than 5 inches deep?

Boy, then that floor was hardly dented.
Like I said, Hani was one considerate guy.
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #3
14. Or maybe he wasn't
And all this time I thought that the hijackers of Flight 77 were slackers, when according to MSNBC, they got right down to business.....

The Boeing 757American Airlines Flight 77had just left Dulles Airport in Northern Virginia A FEW MINUTES BEFORE with a fuel tank full enough for a transcontinental flight. It crashed into the southwestern corner of the monolithic five-sided landmark at speeds estimated at 450mph, cutting a 100-foot-wide wedge through the five floors of the outermost E-Ring, and penetrating into the D and C rings as well. Destruction, death, mayhem on one end of the building; an earthquakelike jolt on the other.
One of the Pentagons two fire trucks was parked only 50 feet from the crash site, and it was totally engulfed in flames, Anderson says. Nearby, tanks full of propane and aviation fuel had begun igniting, and they soon began exploding, one by one. As Anderson ran closer, he saw the three firemen on duty at the Pentagon firehouse pull the second truck out of the garage. Just three guys trying to put out this huge firebut they very heroically pulled their truck closer to the fire than they probably should have.

About that earthquakelike jolt on the other side of the building.
I wonder why it is that sensitive instruments
used to measure seismic vibrations
FAILED TOTALLY to pick it up.
Just another Pentanomaly.....

Alan Wallace usually worked out of the Fort Myer fire station, but on Sept. 11 he was one of three firefighters assigned to the Pentagons heliport. Along with crew members Mark Skipper and Dennis Young, Wallace arrived around 7:30 in the morning. After a quick breakfast, the 55-year-old firefighter moved the stations firetruck out of the firehouse. President Bush had used the heliport the day before: hed motorcaded to the Pentagon, then flown to Andrews Air Force Base for a trip to Florida. Bush was scheduled to return to the Pentagon helipad later on Tuesday, Wallace says. So Wallace wanted the firetruck out of the station before Secret Service vehicles arrived and blocked its way. He parked it perpendicular to the west wall of the Pentagon. Wallace and Skipper were walking along the right side of the truck (Young was in the station) when the two looked up and saw an airplane. It was about 25 feet off the ground and just 200 yards awaythe length of two football fields. They had heard about the WTC disaster and had little doubt what was coming next. Lets go, Wallace yelled. Both men ran.
Wallace ran back toward the west side of the station, toward a nine-passenger Ford van. My plans were to run until I caught on fire, he says. He didnt know how long hed have or whether he could outrun the oncoming plane. Skipper ran north into an open field. Wallace hadnt gotten far when the plane hit. I hadnt even reached the back of the van when I felt the fireball. I felt the blast, he says. He hit the blacktop near the left rear tire of the van and quickly shimmied underneath. I remember feeling pressure, a lot of heat, he says. He crawled toward the front of the van, then emerged to see Skipper out in the field, still standing. Everything is on fire. The grass is on fire. The building is on fire. The firehouse is on fire, Wallace recalls. There was fire everywhere. Areas of the blacktop were on fire.

Wallace ran over to Skipper, who said he was OK, too. They compared injuriesburned arms, minor cuts, scraped skin. He ran back into the station to try to suit up. But he found debris everywhere. The ceiling had crumbled, there were broken lights and drywall everywhere. His boots were on fire. His fire pants filled with debris. The fire alarm was blaring.
Then Wallace heard someone call from outside. We need help over here, someone yelled. He ran back outside over to the Pentagon building and helped lower people out of a first-floor window, still some six feet off the ground. He helped 10 to 15 people to safety.

Yet ANOTHER instance of the regular guys being sent off while a new crowd is shipped in just in time for the plane crash.

The chap in the open field is left standing, but the guy hiding for cover under the van gets singed.
That Wallace should thank his lucky stars that the left rear tire of the van did not blow out due to that intense heat and pressure.
Let's hear what another firefighter has to say about the events at hand.

"We were one of the very first ones there," Dodge said, "aside from the crew that was already positioned at the Pentagon. So, I was doing a quick size-up of the situation to see all that was taking place."
"At that point, I took the line and concentrated on getting out the fires on the outside of the building," Dodge said.
AND THE FOAM TRUCK (Myer's helipad crash unit)."

Lt. Col. Ted Anderson appears to confirm this.

One of the Pentagons two fire trucks was parked only 50 feet from the crash site, and it was totally engulfed in flames, Anderson says. Nearby, tanks full of propane and aviation fuel had begun igniting, and they soon began exploding, one by one. As Anderson ran closer, he saw the three firemen on duty at the Pentagon firehouse pull the second truck out of the garage. Just three guys trying to put out this huge firebut they very heroically pulled their truck closer to the fire than they probably should have.

So tell me lads,
WHY were the trailer,
AND the two cars
AND the fire truck
ALL on fire
AND producing almost ALL the smoke seen on the outside of the building?

Well then,
I will just leave you three fellas to think about it.
I know how difficult that task is for you.

As for the rest of you:
I need a little help.
This article was written by an American.
Alan Wallace usually worked out of the Fort Myer fire station, but on Sept. 11 he was one of three firefighters assigned to the Pentagons heliport. Along with crew members Mark Skipper and Dennis Young, Wallace arrived around 7:30 in the morning.

In America, the first floor is the ground floor.
Therefore, since both the narrator and the journalist and the newspaper and the bulk of the audience is American, then how does this make sense?
Then Wallace heard someone call from outside. We need help over here, someone yelled. He ran back outside over to the Pentagon building and helped lower people out of a first-floor window, still some six feet off the ground. He helped 10 to 15 people to safety.

Wallace helped lower people out of a GROUND FLOOR window?

Note to Wayne Stroupe:
"England and America are two countries divided by a common language."
In 2001, Stroupe handled 167 different media market contacts including the Los Angeles Times, NBC News, Wall Street Journal, NBC Dateline, New York Times, 60 Minutes II, Discovery Channel, Good Morning America, History Channel, BBC, and the Learning Channel.

The air was hot and smoky. Sprinklers poured water down onto the floor. The halls were dark and the men searched with flashlights. It was a war zone, Burkhammer says. Some parts of the building, there was nothing left intact. Ceilings had fallen and ventilation systems dangled down. The left side of the building was more unstable than the right, where they could access all five floors. Burkhammer spotted lime-green pieces from the interior of the plane. You could tell where the plane had gone because of the destruction of the steel and concrete beams, he says. He could see evidence of the Pentagons renovations: exposed I-beams read MAY 2000. After a frustrating hour, the recon teams stumbled back out of the building. Lugging the heavy gear through the heat and smoke had taken a toll. One man was sent to the hospital for dehydration. We were spent, says Burkhammer. And they were dejected. We did not find any live people, he says. Even the search dogs seemed to feel the loss. You can see it on the dogs face. The dogs are almost as depressed as the guys are, Burkhammer says.

The dogs were in there all that time?
Did the dogs have respirators?
Oh, wait a minute, the dogs cannot have respirators because they need their noses to sniff out the collapsed people.
But there was a lot of smoke and heat there, enough to dehydrate a firefighter in just ONE short hour.
How do these dogs manage to work under these conditions?
Oh heck, why am I worrying about that? It's not as if OSHA gives a damn.
Besides those hounds probably went to the same Canary Academy that trained the disposable anthrax-sniffing dogs. When Fido rolls over -dead- you know that he found the spores.
But let's go back to the problems of the humans.

Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls,
I do not think that we are going to be able to have a thread to discuss the merits of
the Incredible Penta-ceiling.
The PUNY Penta-ceiling, perhaps.
The ceilings in the Pentagon seem to crumble at the SLIGHTEST provocation.
Even tightly-corsetted and highly prudish Victorian spinsters were not given to collapse as readily as the average ceiling in the Pentagon.

Sprinklers poured water down onto the floor. The halls were dark and the men searched with flashlights. It was a war zone, Burkhammer says. Some parts of the building, there was nothing left intact. CEILINGS HAD FALLEN AND VENTILATION SYSTEMS DANGLED DOWN. The left side of the building was more unstable than the right, where they could access all five floors. Burkhammer spotted lime-green pieces from the interior of the plane. You could tell where the plane had gone because of the destruction of the steel and concrete beams, he says. He could see evidence of the Pentagons renovations: exposed I-beams read MAY 2000.

But note:
The Incredible Penta-floor is STILL INTACT.
The firemen are still able to walk all over it!!
Furthermore, the Incredible Penta-Floor is still WATERPROOF.

Conditions were tough. Though the fire was controlled, there was water everywhere from the fire streams and the sprinklers. Your feet were soaked, says Burkhammer. Everyone got blisters.

The Incredible Penta-floor is AMAZINGLY TOUGH.

Early Friday morning, shortly before 4 a.m., Burkhammer and another firefighter, Brian Moravitz, were combing through debris near the impact site. Peering at the wreckage with their helmet lights, the two spotted an intact seat from the planes cockpit with a chunk of the floor still attached. Then they saw two odd-shaped dark boxes, about 1.5 by 2 feet long. Theyd been told the planes black boxes would in fact be bright orange, but these were charred black. The boxes had handles on one end and one was torn open. They cordoned off the area and called for an FBI agent, who in turn called for someone from the National Transportation Safety Board who confirmed the find: the black boxes from American Airlines Flight 77. We wanted to find live victims, says Burkhammer. But this was a consolation prize. Finding the black box gave us a little boost, he says.

The black boxes were charred and one was TORN OPEN.
But the Incredible Penta-Floor did not have any dents, scratches or gouges that were even five inches deep. That is why this marvelous structure shall henceforth be known as
The Mother Of All Floors.

Burkhammer says that there was widespread destruction of the steel and concrete beams.
He goes on to claim that these structures were the same ones that had just undegone renovation.
Was that MAY 2000 painted on to the I-beams?
Was that lime-green color painted onto those metal pieces?
How come it did not burn off?
I mean, this is the same type of jet and the same type of jet fuel that managed to soften if not outright MELT the I-beams at the WTC. So how come the paint in the Pentagon STAYS the same color and does not charr or flake off the metal?
It must be incredible Penta-paint!!!
Just like the stuff on the Red Penta-fire-engine.

Sept. 11 started out as a normal day in the Pentagon control towers. The crew, Boger and Spc. Jacqueline Kidd, air traffic controller and training supervisor, prepared for President George W. Bush to arrive from Florida around 12:30 p.m.
Kidd knew that the Pentagon would immediately heighten security after the attack in New York, so she decided to get her lunch out of her car while she still could.
Kidd was on her way out to her car when the plane hit. Luckily, Kidd stopped by the restroom before going to her car.
"They got us," Kidd said her first thought was. "The lights went out and the ceiling fell in on me," she said.
Kidd returned to the bottom of the tower and tried to get to Boger. The stairs were covered with debris and the ceiling had fallen in around him.
"I don't know how I got out, but I got out," Boger said.
Boger got to the bottom of the tower and was still not sure what was going on.
"I grabbed and we both fell to the ground," he said. "We looked back."
"What happened?" Kidd asked.
"A plane just flew into the Pentagon," Boger responded.
THE FIRST THING THE TWO OF THEM NOTICED WAS THAT BOTH OF THEIR CARS WERE ON FIRE. Kidd was the owner of the infamous Grand Cherokee that ended up resembling a station wagon and Boger owned the totaled 3000 GT that was shown for weeks worldwide on news broadcasts.
Boger said he kept waiting for people to start running out of the building, but he only saw a few security officers running out, yelling to get away from the building.
Both air traffic controllers walked around the building and saw where people were grouping. He said about 15 minutes later people were starting to take charge.

Wonder why these two didn't go help old Wallace who was cowering under the fire engine with the burning rear end. These two just WALKED around the building. And the first thing they noticed was that their cars were on fire. Somehow they they seem to have overlooked a great big plane wreck a few yards ahead of them. Which is why we MUST ask once again,
Wherdy go?

Dodge he had learned from the fire chief who responded to the Murrah Federal Building bombing that outside fires there prevented emergency teams from getting to the heart of the building.
"Once I had pretty much knocked down, then I went into the area of the first floor where all the fire was, and just trying to get on that," he said. "It was something to fight with, until we got the other foam trucks there."
He said the foam units got there and concentrated on the area of the construction trailer, which was producing some severe fires and subsequent mini explosions due to highly flammable chemicals in it,
ON THE ACTUAL POINT OF IMPACT from the hijacked aircraft.
"Luckily the chemical containers were caged," he said. "Otherwise the fires would have been worse.

So these guys are concentratng on putting ou the fires from the vehicles OUTSIDE the Pentagon and they are
And they are doing this because the fires OUTSIDE are WORSE than anything INSIDE the Pentagon.
What am I missing?
Oh I remember!
A great big 757 Boeing jetliner laden with passengers and cargo.
Wherdy go?
I dunno.
But at least it had the decency to leave the Penta-floor in the same pristine condition as it left the Penta-lawn.

You know,
this makes everything ever so much more interesting.
Just suppose these gonzos had held off their attack for a few hours.
Bush was supposed to be right there on the helipad later that day. And you do know, that when he stepped out of the plane, Rumsfeld and all those other big shots would have been right there as well.
I guess al Qaeda doesn't have very good intelligence after all.
Or maybe they do.
A later attack could have resulted in having a few more birds in the hand, as well as at least one Bush. However, as Bond said when shooting pheasant with Drax, it depends what you are aiming for.
Georgie can thank his lucky stars that Osama can still remember the words to Auld Lang Syne.

After spending much of the day holed up in Offut AFB,
Bush had to return to Washington for a photo op.

Affolder mentioned to the president he was from Fort Myer and that they cover him when he flies into the Pentagon and that they had three guys at the building when the plane hit.
"He asked how they were," Affolder said. "I told him if he was ever around Fort Myer to come and visit the guys. HE TALKED ABOUT HOW WE WERE GOING TO SMOKE THEM OUT OF WHQTEVER HOLES THEY WERE IN. I'll never forget this."

Firey words.
From a joker.
"The president came in and talked to everyone and thanked us all," Affolder said. "He told us why we were there. I was shocked that I was chosen to go and meet him.
It was actually kind of funny. He was making jokes while we were in there. He was taller than he seemed on TV." /

Tough talk, coming from one who summoned four area on-duty firemen to participate a public relations ceremony on Sept. 18 in the White House Rose Garden. The event was to raise awareness of a new web-site organized by AOl-Time Warner and other corporations to raise money for disaster relief. What a wonderful collaboration between corporations, - and the White House.
This is the Public Relations equivalent of an orgasm. /
We haven't seen anything at this level since Cote & D'Ambrosio used the photo of a supposedly dying child to promote window glass.
Firefighters make such wonderful PR props. And now apparently, they know it.
Wonder whatever did happen to all that money that website raised...
Wanna go smoke it out?
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crispy Donating Member (148 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. "the grass is on fire"
If you're implying by showing that picture of the nice Pentagon lawn that a lot of stuff wasn't on fire then you're wrong.
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Moe
As Wallace and Skipper were standing by the crash vehicle, they observed American Airlines Flight 77 heading directly toward them. The Boeing 757 was just 250 yards away and 25 to 30 feet off the ground.

As the firefighters dove for cover, THEY WERE THROWN TO THE GROUND by the blast of the aircraft striking the Pentagon, AND RECIEVED SHRAPNEL WOUNDS AS WELL AS FIRST AND SECOND-DEGREE BURNS.
At the same time, Young was in the Pentagon crash station, which was damaged by the impact of the jet. He sustained A SPRAINED ANKLE in the explosion.
Wallace found that Foam 161 was on fire and heavily damaged. He was able to alert the Fort Myer Fire & Emergency Dispatch Center by radio before having to abandon the apparatus.
With no means of fighting the fire, the men turned their efforts to begin rescuing the trapped and injured Pentagon personnel. Their efforts focused on the first floor of the building, just yards from where the impact had been.
Through their perilous actions during the first moments of the incident, they were able to save 15 people from the burning building, said Col. Christopher Essig, commander of Fort Myer.
The crew continued to rescue personnel and assist in the firefighting operations for the next 45 minutes, until they were obviously overcome by their injuries and were ordered to the triage area for treatment before being transported to the hospital.

how many of you have been able to detect SHRAPNEL embedded in that fire truck?
Al right then, let's check out some more versions of the story.

The third firefighter, Dennis Young, was inside the building when the plane hit but emerged unscathed shortly after the crash. .

Staff Sgt. Tyree Bacon, from the 514th CES at McGuire AFB, N.J., received DOD's heroism award. He was a co-winner along with three Army firefighters -- Mark Skipper, Alan Wallace and Dennis Young -- assigned to the Pentagon's fire department. /

About 9:40, Alan Wallace had finished fixing the foam metering valve on the back of his fire truck parked in the Pentagon fire station and walked to the front of the station. He looked up and saw a jetliner coming straight at him. It was about 25 feet off the ground, no landing wheels visible, a few hundred yards away and closing fast.

"Runnnnn!" he yelled to a pal. There was no time to look back, barely time to scramble. He made it about 30 feet, heard a terrible roar, felt the heat, and dove underneath a van, skinning his stomach as he slid along the blacktop, sailing under it as though he were riding a luge. The van protected him against burning metal that was flying around. A few seconds later he was sliding back out to check on his friend and then race back to the firetruck. He jumped in, threw it into gear, but the accelerator was dead. The entire back of the truck was destroyed, the cab on fire. He grabbed the radio headset and called the main station at Fort Myer to report the unimaginable.
The sun was still low in the sky, obscured by the Pentagon and the enormous billowing clouds of acrid smoke, making it hauntingly dark. The ground was on fire. Trees were on fire. Hot slices of aluminum were everywhere. Wallace could hear voices crying for help and moved toward them. People were coming out a window head first, landing on him. He had faced incoming fire before -- he was with the hospital corps in Vietnam when mortars and rocket shells dropped on the operating room near Da Nang -- but he had never witnessed anything of this devastating intensity.

Heady stuff.
Lots of action.
And that's what makes it ever so different from this:

I was driving the truck to the scene, Ruffolo recalled. It took about four or five minutes because of traffic, but it seemed like an eternity.
As soon as we popped over the hill, I said, JESUS CHRIST, WHERE'S THE AIRPLANE? Buongiorne said. I'VE WORKED AROUND 757s, AND I KNOW HOW HUGE THEY ARE.
Foam Unit 331 from the airport was the first arriving foam unit on the scene, and began to extinguish the blaze from what had been American Airlines Flight 77. They were able to extinguish the bulk of the aviation fuel at the impact area, and used hand lines to extinguish spot fires and burning vehicles adjacent to the Pentagon.

Please add
Metropolitan Washington Airports Authority firefighter
Nicholas Buongiorne
to the long and ever-growing list
of people who ask the question:
Wherdy go?

But I digress from the LACK OF IMMEDIATE FIRE at the Pentagon.

Young: I was working the jail in the processing section and we were watching the twin towers on TV and for some reason something told me to go outside. I went to the courthouse on my break and went to the 9th floor. The Pentagon is about four miles from us. From our office you can almost see it. As I got off the elevator and opened a door to one of the offices, Art said the Pentagon just got hit. He could see the smoke from his office. He was watching a program on the news and they were interviewing a terrorism expert from the Pentagon who had just said he thought they had been hit by a BOMB. I was technically on a break and Art's car was parked out back . We were lucky to get on an elevator that took us right down. Art was so flustered when we got in the car. He couldn't remember how to get us to the Pentagon.
We got on the North side of the Pentagon we didn't know if it was a plane or what. I said 'Wherever there is smoke, go.' We were hopping curbs. THERE'S A BIG TREE ON THE WEST SIDE BY THE HELIPAD. WE PARKED BESIDE THAT TREE AND WE GOT OUT. We told the police department we were there and ran to the helipad. Everything was happening so quick. I felt like I was in a movie. We were jumping over pieces of a plane. THE FIRST THING WE DID WAS WE WENT TO THE BUILDING ITSELF TO THE LEFT OF WHERE IT IMPACTED. WE STARTED LOOKING FOR PEOPLE. THERE WAS NOBODY. IT WAS SILENT. THERE WAS A FIRE TRUCK AT THE HELIPAD (BUT)NOTHING WAS ON FIRE RIGHT AWAY.
WE REMOVED SOME FLAMABLE MATERIALS FROM THE HELIPAD AND FINALLY WE SAW HANDS IN A WINDOW. I REMEMBER IT WAS 13 WINDOWS DOWN FROM WHERE THE PLANE IMPACTED. We took one lady out and then a second lady. She had so much soot on her I couldn't tell the color of her skin. Art grabbed a guy. There were only 3 or 4 people. They rushed everyone away.
At this time more fire trucks were there. They had roped off a section to direct who was coming in and out. The military installation was trying to keep control but it was chaos.
Then there was word of an inbound plane 10 minutes out. This brought me back to the Gulf War. I could smell the fuel burning.
A fireman grabbed me and took me away from the building. THE WINDOWS ABOVE US HAD STARTED TO MELT AND FALL OUT. I had lost track of Art. He had gone into the building but he was called out because of the second plane. People wanted to go in and they had to force people out because they were going to become a casualty. For the rest of the day we helped pick up debris. We came across personal affects from the plane. We gathered it up. It was like a crime scene.

Isn't it amazing how those in charge were
that the Pentagon would be hit AGAIN by that plane?
Why, they had to stop EVERYTHING.
Good thing General Van Riper was nowhere around.
He would have flipped a gasket, and probably earned himself a court-martial as well.,12271,778139,00.h...

Curious how this time they KNEW that it was 10 minutes out.
Even though the building was now on fire and the electicity was being shut off.

Inside the Pentagon, as thousands of employees began evacuating, Kathy Greenwell watched all hell break loose across a bank of computer screens in the Building Operations Command Center where she is an operator. Phones started ringing, 355 fire alarms went off simultaneously, and the computers, which monitor such things as air quality, water pressure, temperature and electrical systems, started spitting out information faster than anyone could read it.
Dennis Smith, a building inspector and former Marine, was smoking a cigarette in the center courtyard when he heard the roar of engines and looked up in time to see the tail of a plane seconds before it exploded into the building. He took off toward the crash to help get people out of the building. I looked up to the third floorthere were people banging on the windows. The smoke was filling up, and then they were just gone.
Metal fire doors began automatically closing off corridors. Dust from pulverized Sheetrock and thick smoke from burning fuel began to fill the air throughout the building. And because THE AIRCRAFT HAD HIT THE PENTAGON'S EMERGENCY POWER GENERATOR, there were no emergency lights in stairwells or corridors to help lead people to exits and safety, says Steve Carter, assistant building manager in the Federal Facilities Division, the office responsible for Pentagon operations.
The Building Operations Command Center soon lost its cable TV connection, Greenwell says, which meant that while most Americans were watching the disaster unfold on television, Pentagon building personnel could see little beyond the smoke-filled corridors. For some, it would be a day or longer before they would get outside and see the collapsed faade that dominated images of Washington projected around the world.
BROKEN WATER PIPES WERE FLOODING THE PENTAGON'S WEST SIDE, AND LIVE ELECTRICAL WIRES THREATENED TO ELECTROCUTE BOTH RESCUERS AND THOSE TRAPPED IN THE BUILDING. Matthew Morris, the power generator shop supervisor, knew immediately what had to be done. Finding his way through dark hallways filling rapidly with smoke and water, Morris got to a critical electrical vault and SHUT DOWN FOUR 13,800-VOLT CIRCUIT BREAKERS.
He took his life in his hands to do that, says co-worker John Robinson, describing how Morris actions likely saved many lives. The force of the crash and resulting explosion had blown the metal doors and a wall out of the vault. The force of the electricity flowing through the system was so powerful, it took tremendous strength for Morris to shut down the huge breakers on his own, Robinson says. If he hadnt done that, a lot of us probably wouldnt be here.

Anyhow this shut down seem to have GREATLY IMPROVED the communications between the Pentagon and the nearby airports and it probably also fixed that
"radar pointing the wrong way"
problem that we have heard Condi singing about.
Hey, you did notice that the force of the crash and resulting explosion had blown the metal doors and a wall out of the vault.
But yet and still this all had NO EFFECT WHATSOEVER on
the Incredible,
the Inimitable,
the Impervious,
the Inscrutable,
Mother of All Floors.
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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. DD - You Are Beautiful. (or very handsome)
It is such a treat and genuine pleasure to find a new DD post. You seem to have an uncanny knack for selecting provocative, on-target photographs and other illustrations to go along with your extremely sharp language and ability to tickle brains.

You have a remarkable mind, and I'm sure I'm not alone in saying I would appreciate your comments even if you were on the other side.

Bless your heart. (and all of your other vital organs, too)
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RH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-03 07:33 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. It is indeed truly remarkable
to observe DD's petual propensity to fail to ignore the many anomalies in for instance the pseudo scientific rantings of Gerard Holmgren. When will her remarkable mind get around to tickling that peculiar mess of mistakes, anomaly and disingenuity?

Unhelpfully unbalanced, selective subjective bias? God forbid the thought.


Or come to that, when was the last time she posted an article that I'd not already seen before?

Amidst the continual repetition of a question long since answered abundantly, hence a continual raking over of unfortunaelty sloppy two year old news articles, it is also remarkable to discern her steadfast ignorance of some aspects of the official version with some much more worrying gaps to be filled and anomalies to explain. Did she ever once mention the trajectory of the B757 as seen, hence the activities of the C130 seen to follow it?

Why then put so much effort into sundry trivialities, as if only to distract, if not especially to distract?

Where is it all supposed to going to?


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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-03 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. RH Dahling,
RE: "it is also remarkable to discern her steadfast ignorance of some aspects of the official version with some much more worrying gaps to be filled and anomalies to explain."

It is not that we are "ignorant" of the official version,
but rather that we consider it to be worthy of being ignored.

And as for the age of the articles,
this event took place two whole years ago.
I understand, from VERY official sources,
that Bush* believes implicitly in certain goings on
which took place well over TWO THOUSAND YEARS AGO.
And I doubt VERY much if he can produce ANY eyewitnesses to substantiate the written word. Yet this does NOT prevent him, nor those of the cloth, from endlessly delving into hermeneutiae - ie nano-hermeneutics.

As for the direction of the plane
and it's C-130 disciple,
what do YOU have to say on the matter?
Do you have any ideas as to wherdy went?
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RH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-03 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Read the threads.

I have already commented about the C130, the U turn trajectory etc.

Ignorance will get you nowhere
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-03 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #20

Ignorance will get you nowhere
unless, of course, you are a
Fortunate Son.

Some folks are born made to wave the flag
Yeah, the red, white, and blue
When the band plays 'Hail To The Chief'
Yeah, they'll point the cannon at you
It ain't me, it ain't me
I'm no millionaire's son
It ain't me, it ain't me
I ain't no fortunate one
-- John Fogerty
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. The EC-130
Never let it be said that DulceDecorum did not rise to the occasion.

Now, we have before us a query:
"Did she ever once mention the trajectory of the B757 as seen, hence the activities of the C130 seen to follow it?"

Well today,
DulceDecorum is not in the mood to discuss the
wherdy go?
DulceDecorum would much rather talk about the
aka the C-130.

why does everyone keep referring to this plane as a C-130?

Two other airplanes were flying near the hijacked United Airlines jet when it crashed in Somerset County, but neither had anything to do with the airliner's fate, the FBI said yesterday.
In fact, one of the planes, a Fairchild Falcon 20 business jet, was directed to the crash site to help rescuers. The request for the jet to fly low and obtain the coordinates for the crash explains reports by people in the vicinity who said a white or silver jet flew by moments after the crash.
A C-130 MILITARY CARGO PLANE WAS ALSO WITHIN 25 MILES OF THE PASSENGER JET WHEN IT CRASHED, FBI spokesman Bill Crowley said yesterday, but was not diverted.
"There was a hole in the ground -- that was it," said Yates Caldwell, the pilot who was at the controls of the 10-passenger corporate jet for Greensboro, N.C.-based apparel maker VF Corp. "There was no way to know what it was .... I didn't know there had been a crash until I landed, until I was on the ground in Johnstown."

Lt. Col. Steve O'Brien started his day at the controls of a MINNESOTA NATIONAL GUARD C-130 CARGO PLANE. He and his crew were heading back to the Twin Cities after moving military supplies around the Caribbean. About 9:30 a.m., O'Brien throttled the lumbering plane down a runway at Andrews Air Force Base, just southeast of the District of Columbia.
"When we took off, we headed north and west and had a beautiful view of the Mall," he said. "I noticed this airplane up and to the left of us, at 10 o'clock. He was descending to our altitude, four miles away or so. That's awful close, so I was surprised he wasn't calling out to us.
"It was like coming up to an intersection. When air traffic control asked me if we had him in sight, I told him that was an understatement - by then, he had pretty much filled our windscreen. Then he made a pretty aggressive turn so he was moving right in front of us, a mile and a half, two miles away. I said we had him in sight, then the controller asked me what kind of plane it was.
"That caught us up, because normally they have all that information. The controller didn't seem to know anything."

That's odd.
I too thought that
the controllers were supposed to know
what was going on in the sky around them.

American Flight 77
Washington to Los Angeles (crashed into Pentagon)
The plane takes off from Dulles airport at 8.20am and climbs to 35,000 feet. At 8.50:51 there is the last radio communication with aircraft and six minutes later transponder contact is lost.
Air traffic controllers try to make contact but fail. At 9.25 the controller observes the plane moving towards Washington. Eight minutes later, the US secret service is informed and the aircraft is observed completing a right 360-degree turn, just south of the Pentagon. AT 9.36 THE NATIONAL AIRPORT INSTRUCTS A MILITARY C130 (Golfer 06) THAT HAS JUST DEPARTED ANDREWS AIR FORCE BASE TO INTERCEPT THE FLIGHT AND IDENTIFY IT. At 9.38 AA77 crashes into the south-west side of the Pentagon.,1300,575518,...

There was a C-130 plane present when Flight 93 crashed/exploded or was shot down. These planes, although large and a bit obvious, would appear to be an excellent choice if you wanted a flying remote control centre.

Oh my!!
What an active imagination that Frank Levi has!!!
He is so wrong.
Everyone knows that the plain old C-130 is a cargo plane.
The EC-130 is the flying remote control center.
C - Cargo
AC - Gunship
EC - Electronic Warfare
HC - Search & Rescue
KC - Aerial Tanker
LC - Arctic & Anarctic Support
NC - Research
MC - Special Operations
RC - Reconnaissance
TC - Training
WC - Weather Reconnaissance

I suppose you are wondering what the EC-130 is capable of doing.
Hold onto your hat.

"I don't think there is any potential adversary that has a totally self-contained military command, control and communications system," the industry official said. "Nothing is that tightly compartmented. EVERYBODY IS USING CIVILIAN COMMERCIAL MECHANISMS THROUGH SOME PART OF THEIR DATA TRANSPORT." The problem was compared to a leaky dike. "They don't have enough fingers to put in all the holes," he said. "IT'S AN OPPORTUNITY IF WE WANT TO BE INTRUSIVE."
The informal survey conducted by a former Army intelligence officer and bomb damage assessment specialist working for Human Rights Watch, William Arkin, appears to confirm that the U.S. COMPUTER ASSAULT WAS DONE THROUGH SPACE-BASED SATELLITE SYSTEMS OR FROM AIRCRAFT.
All through the war, Yugoslav civilian computer operators kept up a high level of Internet activity, and international telephone calls went through without interruption, even to the U.S., Arkin discovered. He contends that the decision to attack Yugoslavia's computer system was reflected in the decision to keep as many communications links as possible untouched and operating so that the defenders couldn't identify and block the links the U.S. used to intercept, alter and reinsert Yugoslav electronic data.
"Clearly the whole game is to collect as much information as you can about what the enemy is doing," the industry official said. "You want to get more information than they have, deny them the ability to collect, and in an offensive sense, to corrupt or disrupt their internal data."
As to the development of new IW technology, "there is a bit of a fog right now, but we know where we have to go," the industry official said. "We are proceeding with certain parts of it. We're right now on the cusp of formulating a strategy. The fact that you could hack into a mission critical system is a pretty scary thing, so at the very least you need a defense."
Arkin believes the Pentagon-owned and operated MilStar and DSCS satellite constellations are the most likely routes for a computer intercept and penetration system since there are legal problems involved in using commercial satellites for military purposes. Moreover, there are other approaches being developed using manned and unmanned aircraft.
The Army is not far behind. Maj. Gen. David Gust, the program executive officer for intelligence and electronic warfare, said the service's collection of signals intelligence gathering aircraft--including the RC-7 (airborne reconnaissance low), RC-12 Guardrail, future Airborne Common Sensor and Tactical UAV--are being considered for the information warfare/offensive computer attack role.

But we are talking about the capabilities of the EC-130,
NOT the C-130
that was sighted at two of the September 11 crash sites.

Then, from the back of the plane, Divito said he heard Senior Airman Robben Todd, seated near one of the rear windows yell, "Oh my God, I just saw another crash. There's another big cloud of smoke out here."
The crew continued their communication with the controller and confirmed that the crash they were reporting was in the same area where the controller had lost contact with the operators of United Flight 93. Although baffled and shocked, the crew did not know what else to do and again continued towards home.
"Everything was just really quiet," Divito said. "The controllers weren't handling the volume of flights they normally do and we were just dealing with them individually as we went from sector to sector."
Finally, one of the controllers started talking to the crew.
"He wasn't sure if he should be telling us anything, but he explained that he knew we were a military aircraft and one of the only planes in the air at that time," said Divito. "He said all other aircraft had been ordered to the ground."
The controller then asked the crew where they were headed and they responded they were on their way home to Minneapolis. Realizing they should not complete their trip home, the crew contacted the nearest air station and landed at Youngstown Air Reserve Base in Vienna, Ohio.

However, all this then begs the question:
Commando Solo?

Commando Solo, the United States Air Force's only airborne radio and television broadcast mission, is assigned to the 193d Special Operations Wing, the only ANG unit assigned to the elite Air Force Special Operations Command. The 193d performs this unique psychological operations mission out of its compact, 38-acre base at Harrisburg International Airport, in Middletown, Pa.
The 193d performs this unique mission with six specially configured EC130E/RR aircraft.
A secondary mission assigned to the 193d is providing airlift for the Air Force Intelligence Command, Senior Scout mission. This mission is performed with two specially modified EC130E aircraft.

Flying high over a battlefield or a troubled country, the six planes of the 193rd Special Operations Wing of the Pennsylvania Air National Guard do a job they say is unique in the world.
On July 13, 1998, the approximately 1200 members of the 193rd Special Operations Group learned that congressional budget approval was given for the new EC-130J aircraft. The new aircraft developed by Lockheed will be able to fly higher than the EC-130's now being used, making them better able to avoid groundfire. The new EC-130J is reported to also handle better and have greater range and fuel economy.
The next few years should see continued enhancements to the EC-130 and its worldwide mission.

did Commando Solo
NOT broadcast
during this
state (Shankesville) and national crisis?

Operating from Brindisi, Italy, the Commando Solo EC-130Es were equipped with high-power transmitters for TV, AM, and FM radio broadcasting. The plane's EW capabilities also allowed it to operate as a jamming device. In this mode, Commando Solo had the potential to jam Bosnian-Serb hard-liners' television and radio broadcasts or simply overpower their signal and replace propaganda with PSYOP programs. When used to broadcast programming over the adversary signal, the aircraft is performing a PSYOP function.

(This next site is most inspiring and edcuational.
Turn your sound up
so that you can properly enjoy the playing of the theme from
"The Terminator.")

Thus, psychological operations are coming of age. We saw from historical examples, how Tactical, Strategic and Consolidation PSYOP can cover the short-range, long-range and recuperative phases of warfare, to reduce enemy morale and combat effectiveness; to promote dissension within and defections from enemy ranks; to support cover and deception operations; and to promote unity, cooperation and morale within our own military and those of our allies, and to provide meaningful domestic assistance to less fortunate groups and communities.
Why then , you may ask, has the value of psychological operations taken so long to receive general recognition, and why is it full potential yet to be realized?
Part of the answer to this question was covered earlier in our presentation, when it was discussed that although psychological operations has been utilized by various military leaders over the centuries, it has only been recently with the major advances in behavioral sciences and mass communications that PSYOP has come into its own as an effective weapon system of great potential.
Another part of the answer to this question lies in the attitude of people towards psychological operations. To some, it produces images of government controlled communications/mass media, telling the people only what the government wants them to hear. To others, it raises the horrid specter of Joseph Goebbels, Hitlers Propaganda Minister, practicing the technique of the "big lie" which has incorrectly become synonymous with "propaganda". Still to others, the mere mention of "psychological" operations or warfare invokes visions of "mind control" through some mysterious means of brainwashing.

It should be clear that modern psychological operations, or PSYOP, is none of those things. On the contrary PSYOP is not unlike the public advertising that we are all exposed to wherever we go, every day, through all kinds of mass media. However the negative connotation that some people attach to the word psychological" prevents many people from recognizing the simple truth. Everyone knows that if you do not have a good product to sell, people will not continue buying it, no matter how much you advertise. The same applies to the points of view advertised through the use of psychological operations. Thus we have no reason to fear PSYOP, but we do have ample reason to respect it for what it can do.
By the application of sound PSYOP techniques, through face-to-face communication and mass media communications, we have demonstrated , time and time again, that we can appeal to the intelligence, reason, and emotions of our target audience to get them to think and act as we desire. If these people are shooting at us, we can persuade them to lay down their arms. If they fear us, we can convince them that they have nothing to fear. If they are belligerent and uncooperative, we can show them the value of unity and cooperation. Lastly and most important, the utilization of PSYOP can prevent needless bloodshed, destruction and misery. That is why we say, with conviction, that psychological operations, or PSYOP, is truly a humane weapon.

Today, Psychological Operations are a vital part of the broad range of U.S. political, military, economic and ideological activities used by the U.S. government to secure national objectives. The mission of providing Psychological Operations for the U.S. Military today rests with the U.S. Army's Civil Affairs and Psychological Operations Command at Fort Bragg, North Carolina.

So, it IS possible
to hijack a nation's ENTIRE broadcasting system
and then broadcast
the videotape of your choosing.
So what happened to the footage of the FIRST PLANE hitting the WTC?

Combine the potential erosion of faith in video authenticity with the so-called "CNN effect" and the stage is set for deception to move the world in new ways. Livingston describes the CNN effect as the ability of mass media to go beyond merely reporting what is happening to actually influencing decision-makers as they consider military, international assistance and other national and international issues. "The CNN effect is real," says James Currie, professor of political science at the National Defense University at Fort McNair in Washington. "Every office you go into at the Pentagon has CNN on." AND THAT MEANS,
he says,
terrorist or advocacy group

this type of brilliance meets with drawbacks.

But what would happen if the people were NOT watching the mass media?
And what of the fighter jets
and other military installations
that might just feel the need to launch a counter-attack?

Compass Call is the designation for a modified version of Lockheed corporation's C-130 Hercules aircraft configured to perform tactical command, control and communications countermeasures or C3CM. Targeting command and control systems provides commanders with an immense advantage before and during the air campaign. COMPASS CALL provides a non-lethal means of denying and disrupting enemy command and control, degrading his combat capability and reducing losses to friendly forces.
The EC-130H Compass Call is the only US wide-area offensive information warfare platform, Compass Call provides disruptive communications jamming and other unique capabilities to support the Joint Force Commander across the spectrum of conflict. SPECIFICALLY, THE MODIFIED AIRCRAFT USES NOISE JAMMING TO PREVENT COMMUNICATION OR DEGRADE THE TRANSFER OF INFORMATION ESSENTIAL TO COMMAND AND CONTROL OF WEAPONS SYSTEMS AND OTHER RESOURCES. It primarily supports tactical air operations but also can provide jamming support to ground force operations.
HINDERING THE EFFECTIVENESS OF IRAQ'S INTEGRATED DEFENSE NETWORK. Rivet Fire has demonstrated its powerful effect on enemy command and control networks in Panama and Iraq.
Aided by the automated system, the crew analyze the signal environment, designate targets and ensure the system is operating effectively. TARGETS CAN BE DESIGNATED BEFORE THE MISSION TAKES OFF, ACQUIRED IN FLIGHT or the MCC/MCS can receive additional tasking at any time from outside agencies (i.e. Airborne Warning and Control System, RC-135 and Airborne Command and Control System.) A radio frequency signal runs from the beginning of the received path through the system and is analyzed at different points along the way. In a war situation, a signal may be received and linguists on board the plane analyze it to determine if it is an enemy signal. If the system decides there is a threat, COMMUNICATIONS WOULD BE JAMMED BY THE OFFICER ON BOARD PRESSING THE RED BUTTONS. ON THE BACK OF THE PLANE IS MICROWAVE POWERED EQUIPMENT WHICH SENDS OUT HIGH ENERGY RADIO FREQUENCY OUTPUT OR INTERFERENCE.

Can someone please tell me
WHAT EXACTLY all these well-qualified and highly-trained people
WERE DOING on the morning of September 11, 2001?
What distracted our Vigilant Guardians?
How did the CIA allow planes to crash into buildings?

Given the complexity of the operation and the timing of the crashes, it is evident that the hijackers were either pilots or had been trained specifically for this mission, a finding that has led the FBI to investigate training records at various flight schools. Ashcroft confirmed that some of the suspects had been trained as pilots in the U.S.
Pilot sources say the cockpit intruders, after commandeering the plane, could have entered a new destination in the flight management computer by bringing up the "divert" page on the control display unit or by inputting a new "waypoint" in the "route" page and leaving the aircraft to fly on autopilot. To take manual control of the aircraft, the hijackers would have to disengage the autopilot through a yoke-mounted switch and turn off the auto-throttle control via a thumb switch on the throttles.
Turning off the transponder, pilots say, is very easy, requiring the hijacker to rotate the transponder switch on the center console to "standby," a move that would remove altitude and airspeed from the air traffic controllers' screens.

But Commando Solo could have REVERSED all this.
Without ever even TOUCHING the Boeing.
I am getting the impression
that we may not be dealing with Napoleon Solo,
our man from United Network Command for Law and Enforcement. (U.N.C.L.E.)
And simply because life imitates art.......

FOX TV show depicts hijacked airliner crashing into WTC six months before 9/11!
They realize that the airplane will be remote controlled, just like Bert's car was. Talking by phone to the Gunmen's office, Byers asks Langly and Frohike to hack into the aircraft controls. They do and discover that the plane is programmed to crash into the World Trade Center. Bert enters the cockpit and tries to warn the aircrew, but they don't believe him. Making a lunge, he deactivates the autopilot and the crew realizes that they are not in control. They have 22 minutes before they hit the building. Langly can't break the encryption on the aircraft control system --- his computer doesn't have the processing power and the computer keeps freezing.

Mr Charalambous said that it was accepted by Associated Newspapers that, as found by the court in the extradition proceedings, there was no evidence whatsoever to support the contention that Mr Raissi had been involved in the conspiracy.,,30100-12812614,00...
LONDON - An Algerian-born pilot won undisclosed damages and an apology on Monday from a British newspaper that carried allegations he was involved in the September 11 terrorist attacks in the United States.
Lotfi Raissi, 29, brought libel proceedings at London's High Court over a story that appeared in September 2001 in the Mail on Sunday, owned by Associated Newspapers.
The report referred to an allegation by the US government, since found to be baseless, that Raissi was the chief flying instructor for the hijackers, and set out what appeared to be evidence to substantiate the claims.,749...

No wonder Hani Hanjour couldn't fly worth a damn.
He did not have a flight instructor.
So just how DID he manage to fly that great big 757,
when apparently he never even boarded the plane?

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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-04 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #24
33. Wait a minute. Was that a conclusion I saw?
Perhaps it's only a hypothesis that DD wants us to consider. A drive-by conclusion. A seed to cast doubt and bear the fruit of paranoia.

So, it IS possible
to hijack a nation's ENTIRE broadcasting system
and then broadcast
the videotape of your choosing.
So what happened to the footage of the FIRST PLANE hitting the WTC?

Okay, let's consider this hypothesis. The 9/11 teleplay may have been CGI videotape rolling, while the actual event (drones, missiles, what have you) took place. The passengers may or may not be dead, but the families certainly think it so. The forensics was faked, the televising was faked, the actual events were faked, the hijakers were faked, the collapse of the buildings were faked...

But the death and destruction were real.

Okay, I'm considering it. Hmmm, wow. That's certainly an idea. But I believe it collapses under the net total weight of the things you must believe in the face of clear evidence to the contrary. Good Lord, the Bushistas can't be bothered to plan the post-invasion of Iraq, and you think they could execute a plan like this one?
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-03 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. RE: Beautiful mind
Edited on Tue Oct-28-03 11:34 PM by DulceDecorum
For lack of a beautiful mind,
I can not be like Barbara Bush,
the queen mother,
our lady of the white hair and pearls,
who believes that her son the president was called upon by God to lead this nation.
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-03 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
4. Concrete and fire
Three buildings were attacked on September 11. All three were hit by "flying bombs" carrying large loads of explosive fuel, which instantly ignited into sizable high-challenge infernos. Two of those structures were reduced to "ground zero," while the other, the Pentagon, lost less than 4% of its total area of operation and is already being rebuilt. There are several reasons why the Pentagon survived, one of which is the aforementioned renovation, modernization, and beefed-up security improvement project begun only five years ago. Allow me to briefly touch on some other key points.
BUILDING CONSTRUCTION: Less steel and more concrete generally means more impediment to fire growth. The "fortresslike" concrete and limestone construction of the Pentagon is not conducive to the typical growth rate of a fire, which will geometrically double in intensity by the minute. The act of conveying heat is impeded. Concrete is actually used as a protective covering for other materials, such as steel. IN ADDITION A CONSIDERABLE AMOUNT OF THE HEAT ENERGY OF A FIRE IS EXPENEDED IN VAPORIZING THE CONCRETE'S MOISTURE CONTENT. Thus, the structural integrity of a building will be more effectively maintained until the fire department can arrive on the scene.

FAST EMERGENCY RESPONSE EFFORTS: A commercial building does not come equipped with the exhaustive security and alarm measures that are present throughout those that are situated in a critical setting. This was the case evidenced by the quick response of numerous fire departments in and around the Capitol on September 11. The first responders to the emergency were the Arlington (Virginia) County firefighters, all of whom arrived on the scene immediately that morning. U.S. Air Force fighter planes were protecting the nation's Capitol 15 minutes after the attack.
Most of the Pentagon is sprinklered, including the area of impact, but the destroyed systems did little or nothing to fight the fire. THE CREDIT GOES TO THOSE FIREMEN WHO STRATEGICALLY CONTAINED THE BLAZE. With precious little margin for error, they managed to completely douse the blaze less than eight hours after the initial explosion, allowing key Pentagon officials to continue their crucial defensive work in other portions of the building. The fire was contained after spreading 50 feet to either side of the 100-foot impact area on the 921-foot exterior of the southwest fifth, not quite reaching the center courtyard, and spreading up to the third tier of the exposed clovened shell. The fire did keep rekindling for the next three days, as smoldering embers, insulation, and other building materials were exposed with the removal of rubble, but these small fires were easily extinguished. In Washington, luckily, there were no firefighter fatalities.

One of the absolutely MOST important points in firefighting is to know WHERE the fire is AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

Dialogic Communications Corp
The system, called the Communicator, is installed at five command centers at the Pentagon and proved its usefulness on September 11, when a hijacked airliner struck the building. Thousands of people were instructed to evacuate the area via messages that the Communicator was programmed to send to individual pagers, cell phones, personal digital assistants and whatever other means of electronic communications were available.
This system alerts everyone at the speed of light, so everyone knows where to go, what the problem is and what to do, said Van Hipp, a defense industry consultant. He said that, a few days after the attacks on the Pentagon and the World Trade Center, government officials had the system installed at the White House.
The Communicator is used at 1,100 sites in 22 countries, said David Zadick, president of Dialogic Systems, the company that manufactures the system.

Please do NOT ask me how the fire department knew about the impending attack when the Secertary of State has said that he did not.
And now a little commentary on a particularly interesting article:

It is entitled "ARFF Crews Respond to the Front Line at Pentagon" written by Stephen Murphy, the executive editor of the National Fire Protection Association Journal ("NFPA Journal"). The dateline states the article was published on November 1, 2001. Here is the opening paragraph:
"When a hijacked Boeing 757, skimming the street lights, smashed into the Pentagon on September 11, firefighters at nearby Reagan National Airport were the right responders in the right place with the right equipment."

Eerie. The prescient opening paragraph addressed the very points I was to raise seven months later in "Pentagon RESCUE? Open, Bloody Questions . . ."

Then, the next two paragraphs challenged everything the media led us to believe about the long-lasting fire at the Pentagon:
"Being among the first responding fire units, National's aircraft rescue firefighters (ARFF) crews were able to set up their apparatus directly in front of the gaping hole in the Pentagon. That was where their training in fighting aircraft fires and the capability of their foam units to extinguish jet fuel fires were put to the best use.

"The ARFF foam units knocked down the bulk of the fire in the first SEVEN MINUTES after their arrival . . ."

If that was so, what did we all watch on TV?

Hmmm, it almost seems as if they are saying that the fire at the Pentagon was extinguished using foam in about seven or so minutes.
Well, that does go a LONG way to explaining why the Pentagon floor is practically intact and why Ed Plaugher stated that it was NOT hot inside the building and also why certain scalps are still graced with hair.
But that is too easy.
Isn't it?
So let's have a look at fire trucks.

The fire trucks that initially responded to the fire were not regular old fire trucks. They were specially equipped fire trucks, which is why they had foam on board for fighting a jet fuel fire.
These trucks were airport-fire-fighting trucks and as such, both the trucks and the firefighters, are regulated by the Federal Aviation Administration.

But the citys back-up rigs, three regular pumpers stationed in firehouses near the airport, dont operate like the far more sophisticated airport fire trucks.
They cant pump while moving and are not designed to operate in the intense heat of jet fuel fires. These are standard features of an airport fire truck, which allow it to chase flaming planes down a runway while spraying foam.
Whats more, the trucks that provide backup for the airport fire rigs carry a fire-extinguishing foam not approved for airport use by the FAA. In fact, the foam used to smother car and fuel tanker fires actually can counteract the one used at airports.
Even the foams manufacturer, Hazardous Control Technology of Georgia, warns against mixing the two.
I dont know of any fire department that would mix these foams, said Rick Morley, the companys regional sales manager. Firefighters at the airports primary back-up station, Engine 46 at Grace and Knodell, have even written a warning on their five-gallon buckets not to mix the two foams. /

One of the major issues for response personnel at the Pentagon was that fire had spread into the roof of the structure. "The inner and outer rings of the building have gabled, slate roofs supported by timbers" said Chief Plaugher. "The wood timbers have been there for at least 60 years and were insulated with horse hair. WE SIMPLY COULD NOT PUT THE FIRE OUT."

Oh dear,
I do hope that they did not mix the two types of foam together.
Because then THAT would explain the blaze that we all saw on TV and in numerous photographs ever since.

Anyhow, it is a jolly good thing that the special airport-fire truck was already prctically at the Pentagon was the proper time.
Why, you ask?
Because the things are more unstable than a drunk in high heels.

A number of high capacity, high centre of gravity airport rescue and firefighting (ARFF) vehicles have rolled over. A list of known incidents is presented in Table 1. As far as is known, these all occurred during normal driving. Consequently, some airports have placed a low speed limit on these vehicles. Drivers may also be uncertain of the vehicles, so may not be prepared to use them to their full capability. Both of these may hamper emergency response.

A truck of this type is supposed to able to spay dry chemicals (or foam) while driving down the runway beside a burning plane. I really do not think that they should be rolling over at the same time. .

So it is a jolly good thing that they really had no need to drive at high speed while engaged at the Pentagon. Thank God, they just so happened to be in the neighbourhood at the precise time there was a need for them to be in that precise neighbourhood.
And it is a good thing they brought all their gear with them.

TICs have also emerged as a viable tool in homeland defense applications: AS MENTIONED EARLIER, THERMAL IMAGERS MAKE QUICK WORK OF SEARCHIING FOR VICTIMS, a capability that is of special value when looking for and rescuing mass casualties, as in the Sept. 11, 2001, tragedies. First responders used thermal imaging cameras to locate survivors of both the World Trade Center and Pentagon attacks.

The three-man crew of Rescue 104 (of the Arlington County Fire Department) spent 15 hours in full gear searching the rubble of the Pentagon for victims, leaving only to refill their SCBA units. Firefighters Fred Kawatsky and Bob Beer, and driver/firefighter Chad Stamp ARRIVED ON SCENE TWO MINUTES AFTER AMERICAN AIRLINES FLIGHT 77 CRASHED INTO THE WEST SIDE OF THE PENTAGON. Without the technology, says Kawatsky, we would have been on our hands and knees crawling. Instead, we just walked through, and we had our bearings.

Huh, big deal.
In the Pentagon EVERYONE walks around in a roaring fire and almost everyone has their bearings. That is how they all rescue each other. What, you didn't watch an awards ceremony?
Besides which, it is not as if the floor ever gets really hot enough to actually spall or anything like that.

The "fortresslike" concrete and limestone construction of the Pentagon is not conducive to the typical growth rate of a fire, which will geometrically double in intensity by the minute. The act of conveying heat is impeded. Concrete is actually used as a protective covering for other materials, such as steel. In addition, a considerable amount of the heat energy of a fire is expended in vaporizing the concrete's moisture content.

Documented damage from exposure to the heat included the iron oxidation, desiccation cracking of the paste, and cracking of both the coarse and fine aggregate, a response to thermal shock. "In many cases, the heat of the fire drove out water attached to the cement hydrates, which literally disintegrated the paste and turned it into a fine powder," Wolter related. APS testing indicated temperatures exceeded 700 degrees Celsius.

But that was just the columns and the walls.
The floor was just FINE.
That is why one coat of Ardex K-15 was MUCH MORE than enough to fill in the little nicks, dents and scatches.

You want proof?
OK, here.
The place was a veritable steam bath.

The impact and explosion that occurred when terrorists crashed a hijacked airliner into the side of the building devastated a significant area on five floors of the world renowned US military headquarters. However, water damage--resulting from fire hoses, automatically activated sprinklers systems, and shattered water lines-- affected nearly 2.5 million square feet of space adjacent to the crash area that otherwise would have been left intact!
"Millions of gallons of water flowed throughout the building after the attack," said Joe Kelley, Munters district manager in the Washington DC area. In some places water was 18 inches deep on the floors."

And on top of that water was the jet fuel
(and perhaps the two types of foam.)
But you can see for yourself that the floor remained VERY WELL HYDRATED and that is why the Ardex K-15 was all that they needed to make it shipshape again - once they drained off all that water and dehumidified the entire place.
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-03 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
5. Assumptions and facts
I am assuming that Levelcrafters obeyed the manufacturer's specs for installation
and I am also assuming that Facchina was knowledgable and diligent in their insistence that only Ardex K-15 be used in the restoration of the Pentagon floor.
Those are two big assumptions and I cannot really say what I have based them on.

The only thing that matters is what really happened.
And to this very day,
we, the general public,
do not know what really happened.

As for the Pentagon floor,
I am still trying to figure out HOW there came to be eighteen inches of water on the floor.
Does that mean that the entire Wedge One and Wedge Two were flooded to that depth?
Why didn't it flow out under the intact new-fangled fire-doors or out of the damaged walls?
The ground floor is supported by the incomplete basement-mezzanine floor which appears to have remained dry.
Why didn't the water flow down the many stairwells and elevator shafts?
Did it?
And if it did flow down into the basement, does that mean that the basement was completely flooded all the way up to the ground floor?
Where did the mold come from?
How long was it BEFORE they allowed Munters on site?
Did anyone drown after passing out due to toxic fumes?
Did the intense fire heat the water into steam?
Did anyone suffer from steam burns?
How did the rescuers cope with all that water flowing in?
How high off the floors are the electrical outlets in the Pentagon?
Did the water cause anyone to be electrocuted?
Did they have to buy all new computers?
What did they do with the waterlogged ones?
How come we didn't see all this water pouring out onto the incredible Penta-lawn?
What did they do with all that jetfuel-polluted water?
Why did they use so much water?
What's all this about?

DU is also used as ballast in commercial and military planes. On Sept. 11, a hijacked plane crashed into the Pentagon. Dr. Janette Sherman, research associate with the Radiation and Public Health Project, had spoken a few days earlier at a Sept. 6 press conference in Hunters Point. After the Sept. 11 attacks, Dr. Sherman notified the Nuclear Information and Resource Service that she detected elevated levels of radiation in her home, located seven miles from the Pentagon. Dr. Sherman still had a gamma meter she had borrowed for her visit to Hunter's Point. The EPA, the FBI, and other federal agencies, including HMRU (Hazardous Materials Response Units), USAR teams, the local fire department and the Virginia HAZMAT were notified, and an investigation began at the Pentagon.
A pile of rubble from the crash was found to be radioactive, but EPA official Bill Bellinger of the agency's Region III Environmental Radiation Monitoring Office was unconcerned when contacted by Diane D'Arrigo from the Nuclear Information and Resource Service. Bellinger indicated that it was probably depleted uranium and mentioned that americium 241could also be scattered around the crash site. He was convinced that depleted uranium is not radiologically toxic, but commented that it is more of a hazard when aerosolized.
Firefighters, Pentagon personnel, and communities nearby did breathe the smoke and ash from the fire. The agencies that are supposed to be protecting us are not. There was no follow-up investigation.

What happens to DU when it rains on the rubble containing it?
What effect does this have on the groundwater?
What happens to the people who are in or around the landfill when DU dust is blowing about?
How are the firefighters and other New Yorkers faring from airborne effects of the crashes in that city?
Why is the Pentagon so silent about this silent killer on their doorstep?
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RH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-03 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. "the only applications for DU ...."

From: MTap706180@a...
Date: Fri Dec 28, 2001 9:15 pm
Subject: Re: RE: Flu-like symptoms

Hi all

A friend of mine, engineer at Boeing, checked on this in September (he is also
an anti-Iraq sanctions activist). See below for Boeing letter and my friend's

I have read elsewhere about DU being used in construction materials, however.


Mary Elynne,

Boeing health and safety documentation for employees says essentially the same
thing as the Boeing letter (from Ron Hindenberger). So many people are involved
with air safety and engineering at Boeing, including the FAA, that any
inconsistencies between official statements and what is actually used in the
airplanes would be noticed quickly for parts as large as counterweights.


-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Petrovich <mailto:bg56322@y ...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 3:41 PM
To: MTap706180@a...
Subject: NO DU in B757 and B767 - Boeing letter.

Mary, please see this

Thank God, it would be aerosol all over Manhattan


Boeing Commercial Airplane Group
P.O. Box 3707 MC 67-PR
Seattle, WA 98124 2207
Ronald J. Hinderberger
Director Air Safety Investigation

17 March 1999

Mr. Robert Jan van den Berg
LAKA Foundation
Ketelhuisplein 43
1054 RD Amsterdam Netherlands

Subject: Use of Depleted Uranium on Boeing Airplanes

References: Your Fax of 11 March 1999

Dear Mr. Van den Berg:

In the reference fax, you asked several questions concerning the use of depleted
uranium (DU) on various Boeing airplanes.

You asked if the KC-135 Stratotanker that crashed in Germany was equipped with
DU balance weights, or if DU was used in other parts of that airplane. We can
confirm that DU was not used for balance weights or for any other Boeing-built
parts of the accident airplane or other KC-135 airplanes.

You asked if DU is used in applications other than for balance weights on the El
Al 747 accident airplane. Also, if DU is used anywhere in other Boeing
commercial airplanes. Simply stated, the only applications for DU in Boeing
commercial jet airplanes is for balance weights in some 747 and DC-10 airplanes.
DU is not used on any other Boeing commercial jet airplanes.

You mention "stories" from people who say that DU was used for "positioning of
the center of gravity" or for balancing the plane after being loaded with cargo.
While it is true that some airplanes use ballast for center-of-gravity control
-- some Boeing 727 and 737 airplanes, for example -- Boeing has never used DU as
the ballast material in those applications.

Very truly yours,

Ronald J. Hindenberger
Director, Air Safety Investigation
Orgn. B-H200, Mail Code 67-PR
Telex 32-9430, STA DIR PURVIS
Phone (425) 237-8525
Datafax (425) 237-8188


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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Radiation Exposure from Depleted Uranium Counterweights
I would not be so sure about corporate assurances on DU, and definitely not -- what a "friend of mine" said "after checking at Boeing."
I do not understand, either, how Bob Petrovich could rest assured about lack of DU risk from crashed planes at WTC, if a 1999 Boeing letter to LAKA stated:
"Simply stated, the only applications for DU in Boeing commercial jet
airplanes is for balance weights in some 747 and DC-10 airplanes."
TYPICAL PROPAGANDA STATEMENT: "simply", "only", "some" without specifics -- how many airplanes, how much DU, which years of production, are they still in service, etc.

Huge stakes are involved and deception music is played full blast. Boeing makes penetration bombs and cruise missiles (maybe only some components), so they would be singing the DU propaganda song along with the government-military-industry-media complex.
Boeing has a multitude of facilities, and the employess of the more
sensitive plants are sworn to secrecy. Who wants to lose a lucrative job and end up in the black books?
Boeing handles DU and uses DU in counterweights of civilian aircraft. See LAKA publications and Venik's paper
Also, I would appreciate on these lists more credible references than "I
have read elsewhere..." Where and what have you read, Mary Elynne?
Piotr Bein


10 CFR Part 40
Exemptions for Uranium Contained in Aircraft Counterweights
July 20, 2001

.....Its high density and low cost also makes it a material of choice for aircraft counterweights. Control surfaces on wide body aircraft require heavy counterweights, yet have insufficient surface clearance for lighter materials. Tungsten (with density 19.3 g/cm3) or DU are ideal materials for this application where volume constraints prohibit the use of less dense metals. An airplane such as Boeing 747 needs 1,500 kg of counterweights.

DU Counterweights Sample MSDS

Another excellent application for depleted uranium is as a counterweight. Currently, depleted uranium is used as a counterweight in both commercial and military aircraft. Because of its density, 18.95 gm/cc, depleted uranium can supply a significant mass in a small area. Counterweights can be moved to compensate for fuel consumption or shifting cargo loads.
Depleted uranium is currently being investigated as a replacement for lead in elevator counterweights, fork truck counterbalances, and crane counterweights. Because of the density of depleted uranium, the appropriate mass takes up significantly less space allowing for either a more compact design or room for additional components. The depleted uranium, because of its residual radioactivity, cannot be easily disposed off at the end of its useful life. MSC is able to lease depleted uranium to a customer. At the end of its useful life the depleted uranium parts can be returned to MSC for proper disposal under its license.

Boeing Company Request Concerning Depleted Uranium Counterweights

"DU counterweights have been used primarily in wide-body aircraft on rudders, outboard ailerons (wing assembly), and outboard elevators (tail assembly). Counterweights come in a variety of weights and shapes, and numerous weights and shapes are used in some aircraft. The DU counterweight can range in weight from 0.23 to 77 kg."
"Some aircraft used for military and cargo also use DU counterweights; these include the Lockheed C-130 and C-141, Jetstar, and S-3A. The Boeing Company produced helicopters utilizing DU as a rotor tip weight prior to 1979. These weights consisted of small 0.22-kg triangular weights. One to three weights were installed per blade. Virtually all of the Boeing helicopters manufactured prior to 1979 have had their blades replaced with composite blades that do not contain DU weights."

Since 1985 MSC, bought by British Nuclear Fuels in 1997, has recycled 2,700 tonnes of depleted uranium into more than 70,000 products, including aircraft and machinery counterweights, flywheels, radiation shielding for x-ray machines and spent fuel casks.,4273,405367...

Depleted uranium is also used in numerous commercial applications requiring a very dense material. These include: ballast and counterweights; balancing control devices on aircraft; balancing and vibration damping on aircraft; machinery ballast and counterweights; gyrorotors and other electromechanical counterweights; shielding for medicine and industry; shipping container shielding for radiopharmaceuticals; chemical catalyst; pigments; and, x-ray tubes.
Due to its high density (1.7 times the density of lead) and relative availability, depleted uranium is well suited for use as counterweights in aeroplanes, yachts and professional race cars, and as radiation shields for medical radiotherapy units and transportation of radioactive isotopes. Military applications include heavy tank armour, anti-tank missiles and projectiles.

Other uses are more mundane, and depend on the metal's very high density (1.7 times that of lead). Hence, where maximum mass must fit in minimum space, such as aircraft control surface and helicopter counterweights, yacht keels, etc, it is often well suited. Until the mid 1970s it was used in dental porcelains. In addition it is used for radiation shielding, being some five times more effective than lead in this role.

Depleted uranium thus has a wide acceptance in everyday civilian applications including health care where it is used in radiation shielding and in containers for radioisotopes. In aviation depleted uranium is used for passenger aircraft counterweights, and in boat building for racing sailboat keels. It is used in exploration geology for drilling equipment.
But why worry?
Just read the official story concerning the health effects of DU.

Captain J. Terry Riordan from Yarmouth, Nova Scotia is the only soldier to have Gulf War Syndrome listed as cause of death in Apr. 1999. He donated his body to Uranium Medical Research Centre. When he came back from Gulf War I his hazel eyes had become bright blue, then turned to gray, then opaque. He had mood swings from homicidal to suicidal and preferred to spend his time in dark rooms and ate baby food.

Some modern tanks, including the Abrams, "fight fire with fire" by using depleted uranium as one of the layers of their complex, multi-layered armor systems.
Depleted uranium is also used in sailboat keels, as counterweights in oil drills, and in other places where there is a need to place a weight that occupies as little space as possible, such as in aircraft ballast.

Are you worried about boxcutters and the fellow sitting next to you?
Here is something to take your mind off that:

"Transportation of undeclared hazardous materials on airplanes remains a significant problem," the NTSB warns. According to the IATA, nearly 26 million tons of air cargo were shipped in 1997. While hazardous materials comprised a significant portion of that cargo, no one knows how much "hidden" hazmat the world's air freighters carry.
For many carriers, keeping the wraps on one's cargo is tantamount to a First Amendment right. Air Cargo World notes that FedEx opposes reporting "undeclared" goods because "questions about shipment contents will infringe on customers' privacy rights and place an unreasonable burden on carriers." (The undeclared goods aboard a FedEx DC-10 that crashed in New York in 1996 included several bags of marijuana.)
The IATA has established global rules for the air shipment of dangerous goods but, until recently, compliance with these regulations has been voluntary. In 1998, compliance was made mandatory but the US Department of Transportation has created a loophole that allows carriers to receive an exemption from the IATA's safety rules.
With more hazmat traversing the skies, it's only a matter of time before another Bijlmer crash occurs. And, statistically, the next crash most likely will occur in the heavily-trafficked corridors of Europe, Central America or the US.

And now, a little something to help you sleep at night:

As a worst-case scenario, the crash of an airplane into a cylinder yard must be assumed. If cylinders are involved in long-lasting fires, large amounts of UF6 can be released within a short time. If the whole contents of a cylinder is released during a fire, lethal air concentrations of toxic substances can occur within distances of 500 to 1,000 meters.
An astonishingly high rate of birth defects in the families of Gulf War veterans is especially troubling. For example, Laura Flanders reports that the Veterans Administration conducted a state-wide survey of 251 Gulf War veterans families in Mississippi. Of their children conceived and born since the war, 67% have illnesses rated severe or have missing eyes, missing ears, blood infections, respiratory problems and fused fingers.
Note to Congressmen: what goes around, comes around.

A public relations consultant for Boeing confirmed that the 757 and 767 jets which were involved in the attacks on the World Trade Centre and the Pentagon did not contain any DU.,1518,157005,00.htm...
Nature Vol. 336, 22/29 Dec. 1988 Fear of Flying, R.L. Parker
Bringing the Gulf War Syndrome and DNA modification to millions of New Yorkers could have been an outcome. The massive amount of extremely fine vapourized metal particles that did occur has never been documented before. There is a report that radioactivity was found at the Pentagon crash site.

So, we now have the word of a public relations flack
stating that there is no DU in New York from the Boeing 757 or 767 that crashed into the WTC.
Who in their right mind would doubt such a trustworthy source?

In the immediate aftermath of the crash, Dutch officials claimed the plane was transporting FLOWERS AND PERFUME. Having been forced to reveal the plane's cargo, both the Dutch and Israeli governments claimed that the chemicals on board were "non-toxic".
The parliamentary committee report--which interviewed 80 witnesses and professional experts--maintains this fiction, describing the plane's cargo as "mundane". Whilst it acknowledges a "direct link" between the crash and subsequent health problems in the area, this is largely confined to the high incident of psychological problems reported, particularly of Post-traumatic Stress Disorder.
The committee notes that the wreckage burnt for one hour and smouldered for several hours more, during which toxic substances were formed. Those identified include gases and smoke particles such as sulphur dioxide, carbon dioxide, hydrochloric acid, chrome, nickel, asbestos and dioxins. But it claims that "no chronic health problems" are to be expected for large numbers of people.

Aren't you glad that the Boeing PR man reassured us?
And the EPA listened to the White House and refrained from bothering us with the facts?
Oh, Pepe LePhew!
Can't you just smell the sweet perfume of the flowers of ignorance?

we have reports that there was, and is,
radiation at the site of the Pentagon crash.
Which just goes to support the contention that whatever it was that hit the Pentagon was NOT a Boeing 757.
Otherwise HOW did the radioactive stuff get there?
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RH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 07:03 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Who in their right mind would doubt such a trustworthy source?

Does any one of the many links posted in message #7 contains anything at all the effect that the letter from Ronald J. Hinderberger, Director Air Safety Investigation, told anything but the truth?

With due respect to the same I found nothing whatsoever, in the said links or anywhere else, except to the effect that DU has indeed been used for balance weights in the 747 and the DC-10, it is not used for Boeing's 757s and 767s.

Many other causes of radio activity are possible. Rather than waste any more time on it here the sensible thing to do would be to consult the experts involved and the employees of Boeing and the Pentagon.
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. And why would Boeing or the Pentagon
tell us the truth?

The Pentagon has been lying about the effects of depleted uranium for YEARS.
And the Pentagon HAS been known to provide misinformation.
Since Boeing is contracted to the Pentagon, it follows that Boeing will do as it is told. After all, he who pays the piper calls the tune.

Do you remember the Office of Strategic Influence?

But Mr. Feith declined to rule out the possibility that the Pentagon might hire an outside firm that would be authorized to spread disinformation overseas.
"We are going to preserve our ability to mislead an enemy," he said.
The Pentagon has hired the Rendon Group, a Washington-based global communications firm, to assist the Office of Strategic Influence in its work, including by analyzing how different overseas media organizations cover the United States. Officials with the Rendon Group have said they are not allowed to discuss their contract with the Pentagon.

A February 1998 report by Peter Jennings cited records obtained by ABC News which showed that the Rendon Group spent more than $23 million dollars in the first year of its contract with the CIA. It worked closely with the Iraqi National Congress, an opposition coalition of 19 Iraqi and Kurdish organizations whose main tasks were to "gather information, distribute propaganda and recruit dissidents." According to ABC, Rendon came up with the name for the Iraqi National Congress and channeled $12 million of covert CIA funding to it between 1992 and 1996.

Another proposal involves sending journalists, civic leaders and foreign leaders e-mail messages that promote American views or attack unfriendly governments, officials said.
Asked if such e-mail would be identified as coming from the American military, a senior Pentagon official said that "the return address will probably be a dot-com, not a dot- mil," a reference to the military's Internet designation.
An Army spokesman contacted by Gannett said he had been told the letter was written by a soldier, though he did not know the identity of the author.
"When he asked other soldiers in his unit to sign it, they did," said Sgt. Todd Oliver of the 173rd Airborne Brigade. "Someone, somewhere along the way, took it upon themselves to mail it to the various editors of newspapers across the country."
Another purported letter writer contacted by Gannett, Sgt. Shawn Grueser of Poca, W.Va., said he spoken to a military public affairs officer about the situation in Iraq for what he believed was a press release to be sent to his local newspaper.

Rear Adm. John Poindexter, former national security adviser to President Reagan, is developing the database under the Total Information Awareness Program. Poindexter was convicted on five counts of misleading Congress and making false statements during the Iran-Contra investigation. Those convictions were later overturned, but critics note that his is a dubious resume for someone entrusted with so sensitive a task.,2933,70992,00.html

The name of this office was changed from
Total Information Awareness Program
Terrorism Information Awareness program.
Mind you, it still collects data on the same people as before, namely, residents of the USA.

The Terrorism Information Awareness (TIA) program under development by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Administration (DARPA) at the Department of Defense has generated substantial controversy. That controversy has led the Secretary of Defense to convene an advisory committee, the Technology and Privacy Advisory Committee (TAPAC), to provide him with advice on how, if at all, the TIA program should proceed. No doubt Congress will (and, indeed, ought to) weigh in as well.
This article was written by Paul Rosenweig and carried by Faux-snooze.,2933,96694,00.html

Paul Rosenzweig is a senior legal research fellow in the Center for Legal and Judicial Studies at The Heritage Foundation and adjunct professor of law at George Mason University.
Before coming to Heritage, Paul Rosenzweig was in private practice, specializing in federal appellate and criminal law and legal ethics.
Previously, Rosenzweig was senior litigation counsel and associate independent counsel at the Office of the Independent Counsel, then headed by Kenneth Starr. While in the independent counsel's office, Rosenzweig supervised investigators working on cases relating to Whitewater, a real-estate deal involving Bill Clinton when he was governor of Arkansas; the White House Travel Office, where employees were allegedly fired at the request of then-first lady Hillary Rodham Clinton; and Monica Lewinsky, the White House intern who had a sexual relationship with President Clinton.
"Paul's extensive experience in private and public practice is a great asset to the center," said Edwin Meese III, head of the center and former attorney general. "We're glad to have him aboard."

"And then there was the Office of Strategic Influence. You may recall that. And 'oh my goodness gracious isn't that terrible, Henny Penny the sky is going to fall.' I went down that next day and said fine, if you want to savage this thing fine I'll give you the corpse. There's the name. You can have the name, but I'm gonna keep doing every single thing that needs to be done and I have."

But please,
do go ahead and consult the experts involved
and the employees of Boeing and the Pentagon.
Let us know how you make out.
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RH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #10
11.  B757s and 767s
had been flying around for many years before 9/11.

So would you then have it that during all that time Boeing would willingly confess that DU was used in B747s while continuing to use it covertly in other aircraft?

So how then would the disposition of their staff and other concerned individuals fit into such a criminal scenario? The application of whatever materials in aircraft would usually be a well documented affair.

;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-)
;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-)
;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-)
;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-)

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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 02:39 AM
Response to Reply #11
23. A well documented affair
Uranium, thorium and other radioactive metals are routinely used in the manufacture of counterweights and other parts of the aircraft engines and body.

Tue, October 28, 2003
New York terror attack site workers are sick, lack medical coverage

Posted on Tue, Oct. 28, 2003
John Graham, a carpenter diagnosed with a respiratory illness called reactive airway disease, said he and his co-workers found themselves coughing uncontrollably and vomiting while working 12-hour shifts at Ground Zero.
"Today, I'm a chronically ill man," Graham said. "It breaks my heart not to be able to run and play with my two daughters."

Monday, September 16, 2002; Page A03
A year after the Sept. 11 attacks, medical studies are showing that hundreds of World Trade Center rescue workers are still struggling with respiratory problems. For firefighters, one of the better documented groups, illnesses have necessitated lengthy medical leaves.
With last year's collapse of the two 110-story towers came a toxic plume of dust and debris. In the weeks after the attacks, many New Yorkers pressed through their recovery efforts with little more protective gear than flimsy paper masks. As the fires burned for months, and workers and residents shared the same rackety cough, many New Yorkers speculated about the amount of asbestos, lead and mercury in the gray dust coating Lower Manhattan.
Initially the Environmental Protection Agency insisted that the air was clean enough to work and live in Lower Manhattan, releasing select results to confirm the assertions.
But reports in the New York Daily News and in The Washington Post found that residents and scientists had their own battery of tests showing that the air contained elevated levels of lead and asbestos.

Posted on Wed, 09 Jan 2002 13:45:47 GMT
Based on tests given to 6,500 firefighters, fire department officials estimate that between 100 and 200 firefighters or officers may be sick enough that the department medical board could declare that they are no longer physically capable of fighting fires, according to the New York Times. So far, fire department officials said, 15 firefighters who worked at Ground Zero have been given that designation, making them eligible to apply for a disability pension.
But representatives of the firefighters' union told the Times that even more may be forced to retire. Thomas Manley, sergeant-at-arms and health and safety officer for the Uniformed Firefighters Association, which represents 9,100 firefighters, estimated that up to 500 firefighters may be forced to retire because of respiratory problems caused by breathing the sooty air at Ground Zero.
Manley also said that between 300 and 400 are on medical leave because they have a chronic cough, get winded easily or are coughing up a phlegm or chalky substances. However, none have conditions serious enough to require hospitalization. /

From New Scientist Online News 11:20 03 December 01
Almost 12 weeks after the terrorist atrocity at New York's World Trade Center, there is at least one fire still burning in the rubble - IT IS THE LONGEST-BURNING STRUCTURAL FIRE IN HISTORY.
Deputy Chief Charles Blaich of the New York City Fire Department would not predict when the last fire might be extinguished. But compared to the situation at the end of September, when aerial thermal images showed the whole of Ground Zero to be a hot spot, conditions today are much safer for the workers clearing the rubble.
This is in part due to the use of a special foaming agent called Pyrocool FEF. On 27 September, the officials ordered 2000 gallons of the liquid, which when added to water produces a slippery, low-viscosity foam.
Berger adds that "Pyrocool also contains two powerful ultra-violet absorbers." These chemicals absorb the high-energy emissions from the fire, which are most able to spread the fire to other materials, and re-emit the energy at a longer, lower-energy wavelength.
The use of FEF foam began on 28 September, with thousands of gallons being pumped into the rubble. One target was the large Freon tanks that had served the WTC air-conditioning system and might have exploded. Blaich told New Scientist: "The foam also extinguished the fires in World Trade Center No 7, the wreckage of a 40-story office tower."

"PYROCOOL eats the heat"

Civilian wusses.
New Yorkers are wusses.
In Washington DC,
our Pentaheroes are back to jogging and are spending their time giving inspiring speeches about their incredible
- and I do mean INCREDIBLE -
experiences on September 11, 2001.

In Washington DC,
our Incredible Pentaheroes stand tall and proud and carry themselves well.
They are not hunched over,
Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags,
Or New York city firefighters.

In Washington DC,
our photogenic Penta-warriors with their fireproof hair inspire civilians
into battle.

Civilian wusses
now throng the ranks of the National Guard
and the National Reserve.
They fight mightily to come home.

But we still have a few military professionals left.
And we thank them with medals
to honor the bravery they demonstrated
to their nation and to the world,
when they and their hair,
fled the Pentagon
on September 11, 2001.
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. Trustworthy sources
Rumsfeld: I was in the Pentagon and felt the shock of the attack, and --
Rumsfeld: A BOMB? I HAD NO IDEA. I looked out the window and raced down the corridors till the smoke was too bad and then went outside, and saw the devastation and talked to an eyewitness who told me that he had seen an aircraft plow into the Pentagon between the first and second floor.
Donaldson: Could you believe it?
Rumsfeld: No. It's just -- it was a sight -- just amazing. .

Q: Who told you that a plane had hit the Pentagon?
Secretary Rumsfeld: I don't recall. It might have been Ed Giamastiani, Admiral Giamastiani, but I'm not sure.
Q: What did you do?
Secretary Rumsfeld: Oh, wait. No one told me. I didn't need it. The whole building jumped. No one told me that a plane had hit the Pentagon. I thought you were talking about the World Trade Center.
No, with respect to the Pentagon we were sitting there getting briefed and the table shook and the building shook and it felt like a bomb had hit the building. We ended our meeting and I got up and went down the hall towards where it clearly had come from. When the smoke got too bad I went downstairs and went outside and around the corner, and of course there it was. There was metal all over the grass and there were people coming out of the building hurt and people were assisting them.

Donald Rumsfeld, the Secretary of Defence, was in his office on the eastern side of the building, in a meeting with Christopher Cox, the defence policy committee chairman of the House of Representatives. Mr Rumsfeld, recalls Mr Cox, watched the TV coverage from New York and said: "Believe me, this isn't over yet. There's going to be another attack, and it could be us."
Moments later, the plane hit.

Clarke: Well, the terrible moment was actually earlier at about 8:40, 8:45 when we realized a plane and then a second plane had hit the World Trade Center. And immediately the crisis management process started up. A couple of us had gone into the secretary's office, Secretary Rumsfeld's office, to alert him to that, tell him that the crisis management process was starting up. HE WANTED TO MAKE A FEW PHONE CALLS. So a few of us headed across the hallway to an area called the National Military Command Center. HE STAYED IN HIS OFFICE. We were in these rooms maybe 200 feet away where we felt the concussion. We immediately knew it was something bad. We weren't sure what. WHEN IT FIRST HAPPENED, WE DIDN'T KNOW WHAT IT WAS. But again, all the wheels were in motion. Everybody was doing what they were supposed to be doing.

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld was holding a meeting in his office to discuss missile defense with some congressmen. The talk turned to terrorism. Let me tell ya, Ive been around the block a few times, said Rumsfeld. There will be another event. A few minutes later, at 9:43 a.m., they heard a roar. What was that? asked Rumsfeld, but everyone instantly knew.

Let's see,
Victoria Clarke says that the were aware of the WTC situation at about 8:45 AM.
Rumsfeld warned of another event and the Pentagon was hit at 9:43 AM.
So what the heck were they doing for that hour in between?
Painting their fingernails?
Clipping their toenails?
Why do they think that we are going to buy some lame story
about not knowing what was going on?
We know that their Communicators were working overtime on that particular day.

High-Speed Notification
Key to September 11th Emergency Communications in NYC, D.C.

These systems completed hundreds of notices via phone, cell phone and pager within moments, said DCC president Gene Kirby, a task that would have taken traditional notification methods such as manual call trees hours to complete.
DCCs off-site hosting service, 1Call, was also utilized extensively in the hours following the attacks. The service performed over 11,000 mission-critical notifications ranging from assembly of crisis response teams to employee health and welfare checks to security alerts nationwide.
In the days and weeks following these tragic events, DCCs high-speed notification solutions continue to assist in recovery efforts across the country, with over 90,000 notifications to date using 1Call alone.

The Federal Aviation Administration;
major airports and airlines;
the Federal Bureau of Investigation;
Army Headquarters Command Center;
the Army and Air National Guard Headquarters;
the Federal Emergency Management Agency;
the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, which oversees New Yorks three major airports, as well as the World Trade Center; and leading financial institutions.

Dialogic Communications Corp., which designed the emergency notification system The Communicator that was used during the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, has lined up a $4.9 million contract with the federal government to service the National Guard.
About 15 minutes after the first plane crashed into the World Trade Center, DCC clients in the World Trade Center used The Communicator to begin immediate broadcasting of messages. These systems completed hundreds of notices via phone, cell phone and pagers within moments a task that would have taken notification methods such as manual ''call trees'' hours to complete.
Besides its dozens of clients located in the World Trade Center, the Federal Aviation Administration, several major airports and airline companies, the FBI and the Pentagon all used The Communicator during the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. .

Keeping the most valuable rooms inside suite 300 secure are biometric hand scanners that check fingerprints and skeletal structure to compare with approved digital images. Every entrance into DCC is keyed and doors can only be opened by using keycards, PIN numbers or passwords. The company's state-of-the-art hosting and data centers, which store client information and all its phone lines, are on 24-hour surveillance. The data center is flood-proof and all information is backed up and stored at an undisclosed location.
When your list of clients includes the Pentagon, the New York City Mayor's Office, the Capital Police in Washington D.C., the Federal Emergency Management Agency, the Tennessee Emergency Management Agency and several Fortune 500 companies, security is a big selling point. .

DCC (Dialogic Communications Corporation) was launched in 1981 with the advent of the first automated voice processing telephone dining guide. With further productdevelopment, DCC's leading audio response unit system(IVR) was created.
In 1988, DCC created the first emergency notification system specifically for the nuclear power industry.
Today, DCC's systems can be found in hundreds of installations throughout 24 countries. DCC continues as a pioneer and established leader in interactive communications technology development. From high-speed notification to corporate messaging/ASP hosting services to customer contact center communications, DCC is committed to producing innovative communications solutions that address the always-changing needs of the global marketplace.

Key customers include:
The White House,
Federal Emergency Management Administration,
Centers for Disease Control and
the House of Representatives
7 of the top 10 brokerage firms
4 of the top 5 chemical companies
10 of the top 25 Fortune 500
5 of the top 10 banking institutions
Hundreds of U.S. police departments

DCC is headquartered in Franklin, Tennessee. For more information about DCC and its products,

System name
Emergency Relocation Group (ERG) Roster Files
(JANUARY 30, 2002, 67 FR 4411).
System location:
Headquarters, Department of the Army, Army Continuity of Operations Program Office, 400 Army PENTAGON, WASHINGTON, DC 20310-0400.
To notify designated Headquarters, Department of the Army personnel as to their responsibilities and relocation assignments in conditions of emergency. THE DIALOGIC COMMUNICATOR will execute the notification of the Emergency Relocation Group (ERG). Therefore, ERG members will ensure the execution of essential missions and functions during the emergency situation.

If the Communicator is anywhere as good as they say it is, and W is not only the president, but also one of their clients, then perhaps that would explain how come he saw the first plane crash into the WTC.
The FAA must have notified SOMEONE that a plane or two were AWOL and the Communicator staff monitored the whole shebang from the start to very bitter end. Maybe, just maybe, they let ole W have a look at What-for.
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. More on trustworthy sources
There is also another purpose. Suppose Bush is having a real unpopular moment. Jihadunspun could furnish another lab doctored video/audio recording of Binladen urging war on Americans. This will serve to distract and at the same time emphasise the need for a war. With its Al Qaeda credentials, few would doubt the source.

The world's most wanted terrorist, Osama bin Laden, has mounted an unparalleled propaganda offensive calling for renewed attacks on the West and on American and British troops in Iraq.
The Saudi-born leader of al-Qaeda has simultaneously released two audio tapes, a series of videotaped threats and several filmed statements by his group's suicide bombers who died in an attack on Riyadh in May.
The tapes include calls by bin Laden for Muslims to rise up and expel American and British troops from Iraq and an exhortation to attack 'Christians and Jews... who occupy Islamic lands'.
The videos, posted on a website regularly used by al-Qaeda, include undated footage of the leader in which he looks healthy and at ease. They also feature, for the first time, a statement in English, read by a suicide bomber who died in Saudi Arabia, threatening terror against the West.,69...
The CIA said two days later that analysts believed bin Laden's voice on the tape was probably authentic.,1280,-327...

An edgy George Bush whisked through south-east Asia this weekend offering increased military aid to help friendly governments combat the threat of terrorism, even as two new tapes purporting to be from Osama bin Laden called for a holy war on US forces in Iraq.
The Asian leaders have greeted Mr Bush a bit like an unloved distant relative, their hospitality tinged with faint embarrassment.
Even before it started, one US official characterised Mr Bush's tour as "the trip from al-Qa'ida hell". At home, official nervousness over the possibility of new attacks was heightened when boxcutter knives and putty made to look like plastic explosive were discovered in the toilet of a Southwest Airlines jet.

"And then there was the Office of Strategic Influence. You may recall that. And 'oh my goodness gracious isn't that terrible, Henny Penny the sky is going to fall.' I went down that next day and said fine, if you want to savage this thing fine I'll give you the corpse. There's the name. You can have the name, but I'm gonna keep doing every single thing that needs to be done and I have."
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-03 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
6. Vroom Vroom
American Free Press contacted Pratt & Whitney and Rolls Royce, manufacturers of the 757s turbofan jet engines to try and identify the piece.
If the aircraft that struck the Pentagon was a Boeing 757-200 owned by American Airlines, then it would have to be a Rolls Royce engine, Mark Sullivan, spokesman for Pratt & Whitney, told AFP.
John W. Brown, spokesman for Rolls Royce (Indianapolis), had previously told AFP: It is not a part from any Rolls Royce engine that Im familiar with, and certainly not the AE 3007H made here in Indy.
The AE 3007 engines are used in small commuter jets such as the Cessna Citation; the AE 3007H is also used in the militarys unmanned aircraft, the Global Hawk. The Global Hawk is manufactured by Northrop Grummans subsidiary Ryan Aeronautical, which it acquired from Teledyne, Inc. in July 1999.
If the government version that an American Airlines 757-200 hit the Pentagon is accurate, then the object in the photo would have to be from a Rolls Royce RB211-535 turbofan engine.
Rolls Royce produces the RB211-535 engines for American Airlines 757-200 aircraft at a plant in Derby, England. Martin Johnson, head of communications at Rolls Royce in Derby, said he had followed the story closely in American Free Press and had also been notified in advance by Rolls Royce offices in Seattle and Indianapolis.
However, rather than address the question of the unidentified disc, Johnson launched a verbal attack on this reporter for questioning the government version of events at the Pentagon on 9-11. You are the only person in the world who does not believe that a 757 hit the Pentagon, Johnson said. The idea that we can have a reasonable conversation is beyond your wildest dreams, Johnson said and hung up the phone.
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-12-03 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
25. The planes, the planes
If you search for AA 11 or AA 77 on different days, you will find that they were regularly scheduled flights
right up to Sept 10. AA 11 was scheduled daily from Logan to LA at 8.00, and AA 77 from Dulles to LA at
7.45. On Sept 11, they were not scheduled. Not cancelled. Just not scheduled.
On Sept 12, they re-appear in the schedule (obviously as cancelled for the next few days) up until Sept 20
when both flights change their numbers.

Thus the official figures from the Bureau of Transportation statistics indicate that neither AA 11 nor AA 77
flew on Sept, 11 2001. This solves the question of what happened to them. Nothing. Because the flights did
not exist. This is consistent with other evidence which shows that they were not the objects responsible for
the Pentagon and Nth WTC tower incidents.

This still leaves unanswered the question of what happened to the passengers alleged to be aboard the non
existent flights. In the case of AA 77, while one can always speculate about the most plausible scenarios, I
prefer to wait until some real evidence emerges. However in the case of AA 11, I think it is worth noting
that UA 175 left from the same airport, at the same time for the same destination as that normally applicable
to AA 11. Therefore, although there is no direct evidence to support the claim, it would seem reasonable to
speculate at this stage that any passengers who were regular fliers on AA 11, and asked to booked on it that
day, went to the airport, expecting to get on AA 11, as per the normal routine. They were then told that
there was a last minute problem with the flight which could not be fixed within a reasonable period of time,
and were offered a flight on UA 175 as compensation.

The data in this search indicates that we have been systematically lied to about the alleged flight paths and
hijacking sequence of AA 11 and AA 77, as well as the alleged phone calls made from the planes.

It also indicates probable complicity by American Airlines in the events of Sept 11 , 2001.
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. So THAT is wherdy went!
We’ve been concentrating on the events in the United States,” he said. American Airlines is a Qantas code-share and oneworld alliance partner. Flight 77, one of the two planes that flew into the World Trade Centre, was also known as QF3058. It was due to connect to QF8 out of Los Angeles to Sydney.

Jane Boyle in her article
Qantas cuts costs and daily US flights
(The Australian Financial Review, 9 October 2001, p.19)
outlined the way Qantas planned on dealing with the anticipated drop in revenue and the increasing costs.

To combat the extra costs, Mr Dixon announced:
A reduction in international services, led by the cancellation of daily QF7/QF8 flights to the US.
A review of executive staff and a 10 per cent reduction in almost all cases by attrition.
No across-the-board salary increase for executives.
A freeze on the appointment or replacement of contractors, consultants and non-operational staff.
A freeze on all discretionary expenditure and non-operational capital expenditure.
Qantas is not the only airline to have to take such drastic measures. Air New Zealand also reduced its flight schedules and has had to retrench some of its staff. The airline has also reduced its directors' and chairman's fees by approximately 50 per cent.

That's funny.
I thought Qantas was loaded.

Qantas - American Airlines In New Partnership
Oct 29, 2001
Oneworld alliance partners Qantas and American Airlines are to form a new strategic partnership in which the Australian carrier is to buy up to 75 Boeing 737 aircraft, currently on order for American.
The deal will allow Qantas to increase capacity in its home market and bring some relief to AA, which has experienced severe financial difficulties since the attacks on the World Trade Center last month.
Further details of the new deal are still being worked out, says the Sydney-based carrier, but Qantas's choice of Boeing aircraft will come as a disappointment to Airbus Industrie.

I guess that they managed to turn things
in what? 20 days?

Let's call these Qantas guys over and see if they can do the same for the US economy.
We can afford to moveon
now that we have FINALLY found out that Flight 77 crashed into the WTC.
At least, that is what the CEO of Qantas claims.
And WHY would HE lie?
And HOW can HE be mistaken?
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RH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. what the CEO of Qantas claims?
Flight 77, one of the two planes that flew into the World Trade Centre does not appear in quotation marks.

The responsibility for the mistake would therefore sit in the first instance with the author of the article, not with the CEO.
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. More sloppy reporting?
From these early beginnings, the New Zealand Flag has gone on to represent New Zealand in almost every arena, perhaps most notably on the battlefield and the sports field. 100 years on, it continues to provide a tangible link to New Zealand across the world, from some of the most remote regions of Antarctica to the September 11 rubble of the World Trade Center towers in New York. The New Zealand Flag is even believed to have been on board the Apollo 11 when Buzz Aldrin and Neil Armstrong made their historic moonwalk in 1969!

Can anyone tell me how that New Zealand flag survived the WTC collapse when the black boxes were never found?
just asking....
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Can anyone tell me...
why it's relevant whether the NZ flag survived when the black boxes did not?

just asking...
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impe Donating Member (185 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-04 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. kind of

like that pesky passport. Your argument has more rubble than the trade centers combined.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-04 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. Unfortunately, you didn't provide me reasons for relevance.
You did provide a connection between the idea that a passport survived but the black boxes didn't, and the idea that the NZ flag survived but the black boxes didn't.

That I already understood, by the by, but I have yet to understand why either ideas are relevent to the discussion. The going CT hypothesis behind the Magic Passport, like the Magic Bullet, is that the passport and bullet were plants. It's supposed to be unbelievable that a passport or a cloth flag survived the destruction of the WTC towers, but I don't understand why at all. The black boxes come into the argument to increase the reader's doubt that it could happen at all.

But real relevance has not been shown. Many things survived the impact of those planes. Papers from the WTC and the plane were strewn all over New York City. These things are light, and could be thrown clear of the explosion and the subsequent collapse, surviving their tumble to the ground relatively unscathed.

Yet the black boxes would have remained with the main structure of the aircraft, and though they are tested to survive great forces, I doubt that they are certified to withstand the incredible forces of a 110 story building collapse. Even had they remained usable after that stress, locating the two boxes in the rubble of the WTC would have been far more difficult than locating a needle in a haystack.

So again, I ask, what is the relevence to an honest discussion of the 9/11 attacks?

PS: What are the odds, by the way, that if the black boxes had been located, that their survival would have been held up to the same ridicule as the survival of the passport and flag here?

Just wondering...
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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-03-04 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #34
39. The beauty of certain questionable evidence that supposedly survived
Convenient evidence supposedly "found" in NY (or at the Pentagon, or even in PA) that supports the "Wacky Cavepeople" Conspiracy Theory is supposed to be accepted by the gullible public because "many things survived the impact of those planes"...BUT

Critical evidence (such as the black boxes) that would shed light on what actually happened, and which might answer some thus far UNanswered questions about the Official Conspiracy Version of 9/11 -- but which have yet to be released, is said to not have survived, and even "had they remained usuable after that stress" is said to have not been located and "would have been far more difficult than locating a needle in a haystack".

Clever -- or carefully planned-for part of the Big Lie sold by disinformation agents and even ostensibly objective outsiders (like our own "bolo" who really, really do genuinely believe the Official Conspiracy Theory, and are only interested in helping those of us who aren't smart enough (or patriotic enough) to just accept the Official CT -- especially, if we are granted the right to believe that "mistakes were made, negligence happened, and snafus obviously occurred")?

Thank you, Arlen Spector. Without you, it would be so much harder.

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RH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-04 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. No.
Or is there some good reason to contrive not to understand that because of the location of whatever object with due regard to the uneven nature of the destruction of the Twin Towers many identifiable objects would indeed survive in various states of preservation while other objects would not be discovered?

Please tell.

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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-04 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. Huh?
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-04 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #27
35. it is really interesting to me
that when the New Zealand flag turns up on Apollo 11,
that is good reporting.
When the New Zealand flag turns up - pretty unscathed - at Ground Zero,
that also is good reporting.
But when a travel publication states that the CEO of Qantas is under the impression that one of his planes is in a certain location,
then THAT is sloppy reporting.

This article is sitting on the website of a certain company.
That fact alone, indicates to me that THEY do not think that it is an instance of sloppy reporting.

DulceDecorum is not as trusting,
which is why DulceDecorum makes pilgrimages to /
Why, you ask?
Media Whores Online takes an unbiased, in-depth look at the astonishingly vast myriad of whores who call themselves "journalists." MWO casts a garish spotlight on the relentless screaming heads of television, the babbling paranoids of squawk radio, and the crayon scribblings of lazy print media "columnists."

Like Judith Miller.

The article on Qantas
which is being vilified
was published by

Orient Aviation (OA) and are published by Wilson Press (HK) Limited, an independent publishing company based in Hong Kong.
Our award-winning magazine OA celebrated its 10th anniversary in October having been launched as a quarterly product in 1993. It became a bi-monthly two years later and in February 1998 increased its frequency to the current 10 issues a year.
Consistently throughout the 10 years our coverage of the Asia-Pacific commercial aviation scene has been second to none. We have unequalled access to the industry's top decision makers. During 2003, one relatively new chief executive described OA to one of our advertisers as "my bible".
This demonstrates what we have known for years; that top airline executives and decisionmakers have come to rely on and trust OA to give them good quality information and analysis.
Information that is good enough for airline CEOs
but is unfortunately not good enough
for some who frequent this forum.
So sad.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-04 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. When Orient Aviation claims that 77 flew into the WTC...
...that's sloppy reporting. They're wrong.

But sometimes we all make mistakes. No big whoop.

Now has your conclusion made any closer approach to the landing strip?
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-04 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Paging Barby the Harpy
Where were you on the night of September 10, 2001?
And who were you playing snookums with?

September 14, 2001
FBI agents also reported detecting a signal from the aircraft that crashed into the Pentagon, and were working frantically to try to locate and remove it.
The discoveries have been a focus for those combing the crash sites, offering the prize of recorded conversations from the cockpit.
The discoveries followed further confusion about the fate of United Airlines flight 93, which crashed 80 miles southeast of Pittsburth, after the FBI said that they were still investigating suggestions that it had been shot down.
The flight was the only one of the four hijacked planes not to hit a significant landmark. The suggestion of a shooting came as a US congressman said the third hijacked plane, UNITED AIRLINES FLIGHT 175 FROM BOSTON TO LOS ANGELES WHICH HIT THE PENTAGON, had circled Capitol Hill with an apparent pick of targets, including the White House.
John Mica, a Florida Republican who chairs the House of Representatives sub-committee on aviation, said that police had told him that the aircraft had had a free choice of which federal building to crash into. It was sheer, in your face, terrorism, he said.,,23-112751,
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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-04 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. Maybe Theodore Scaife Olson thought Babs's plane was aiming for HIM.
Edited on Fri Jul-02-04 03:26 PM by Abe Linkman
If Barby was not with the U.S. Solicitor General on the evening of September 10th, Ted may have been in a very jealous, unforgiving mood on the hungover morning of September 11th.
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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-04 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #35
40. The round hole, melted aluminum, vaporized 757, and magic
Let me see if I understand correctly what the purveyors of the theory that a B757 crashed into the Pentagon, want us to believe:

1.) AA FL 77 crashed into, in front of, or at the reinforced wedge of the Pentagon.

2.) It was blown to tiny bits by the force and energy of exploding upon contact with the building.

3.) It was vaporized by the heat generated from the resulting fire caused by jet fuel, carpets, office furniture, and some firecrackers.

4.) It's terminal parking spot was immediately outside the nine foot circular hole outside the third or fourth ring of the Pentagon.

5.) The tiny bits of whatever they are, outside the hole are actually the parts of the fuselage that created the hole.

6.) Crashing thru & creating that round hole is what caused the destruction of the last piece of AA FL 77.

7.) There is no rational, plausible explanation, and certainly no conclusive (or even close to being conclusive)evidence for why the plane's fuselage met it's "Waterloo" after blasting thru the final wedge of building...rather than say, the one just preceding the last one it went thru.

8.) A B757 has two jet engines, but only one airplane engine was found at the Pentagon, and it doesn't appear to be from a B757.

9.) The rest of the one engine found, and the other one that must be there if a 757 crashed, were all destroyed in the fire that didn't destroy the DNA of FL 77's passengers and crew and the Pentagon personnel who had the misfortune to not be employees of Naval Intelligence.

10.) Only conspiracy theorists question the Official Conspiracy storyline which claims FL 77 crashed at the Pentagon.

11.) For people who don't trust the bush Administration's Pentagon Conspiracy Theory, the best explanation is the Arlen Spector one:
"Magic B757".

You just have to believe. See, it's MAGIC. So, don't expect the magician to reveal how the trick was done.

They thought their BEST trick was not getting caught.
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