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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-22-03 06:02 PM
Original message
Vermont Native American leader calls Dean's overtures "a joke."
While former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean received an enthusiastic response for his remarks Wednesday before the National Congress of American Indians in Albuquerque, N.M., the leader of Vermont's Native Americans had a far different response.

April St. Francis Rushlow, chief of the Abenaki Nation of Missisquoi, questioned whether the delegates at the national gathering were aware of Dean's record of dealing with the Abenaki. "I think they need to take a look at his record in Vermont before they decide to vote for him on Native American issues," Rushlow said, calling Dean's overtures to them "a joke."

"He didn't do too much for us when he was governor for 11 years," she said. "He denied that we existed, unless it brought money into the state of Vermont."

Dean's disagreements with the Abenaki were well chronicled. He opposed state or federal recognition of the tribe, fearing they would launch land claims or attempt to open a casino if the federal government approved their status as a sovereign Indian nation.

<snip>

"Right now our children cannot apply for scholarships that are earmarked for Native Americans, because we're not state or federally recognized,' she said. "Gov. Dean recognized the culture, but not the people that went with it."

Rushlow said she intended to contact officials at the National Congress to let them know about Dean's record.
http://rutlandherald.nybor.com/News/Story/74859.html
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Tandalayo_Scheisskopf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-22-03 06:12 PM
Response to Original message
1. OK, first question:
Are they a real tribe? Down here, in NJ, we have had people calling themselves tribes of Native Americans. Without any substantive proof. Casinos, you know...
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-22-03 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
17. You Mean The Donatrumpicaca?
They were the #2 tribe, right behind the Lenape...
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-03 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
43. Next question:
Why is this stupid issue being replayed for a second week in a row? The Abenaki non issue has been done to death.

I bring you bad news. Dean did nothing wrong here, and it will not hurt his chances of winning the nomination or the White House.

Move. On.


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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #43
46. I guess the answer to your question
Edited on Fri Nov-28-03 02:57 AM by Feanorcurufinwe
is that to the people involved it is not as much of a non-issue as it is to you.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #46
52. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ebw Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. Re: I think you never knew who the Abenaki are until it was a weapon
Actually I don't think that's a failing in a person.

Take a step back. You probably can't name any terminated Tribe, or any of the Eastern and Southern Tribes, unless you have some direct relationship with the Tribal Government, or its citizens. There are over 500 Tribal Governments with a relationship to the Federal Government in the US, and close to 600 with a relationship to the Federal Government in Canada, and over 50 with a relationship with both, or with one but not the other, though their citizens are also citizens of both the US and Canada.

We happen to be recognized by Ottowa, but not by Washington, and our territorial home is bounded by the Kennebeck watershed in Maine, the Merrimack watershed in Massachusetts, and the Connecticut watershed in Connecticut and Vermont, and the St. Lawrence in PQ. My band is in Western Maine. The Swanton Band is in Vermont.

Vermont has an image. Abenakis aren't in that happy idylic picture. Howard made the mistake of confusing our survival strategy -- hiding in plain sight during the 19th and 20th century, in particular the quiet pogroms of the 1880s and 1930s (lynchings and sterilizations, resp.), with reality -- that we'd vanished, gone on a long fishing trip to Canada or Hawai'i maybe, and anyone making an Abenaki claim was simply claiming to be Abenaki -- claiming, not being.

Unfortunately, he's not progressed an iota from his "Oh, Indians" moment of illumination shortly after he came to Vermont, which was before he became a State's executive, with all the responsibilities -- for all the State's inhabitants (Abenakis became citizens of the US in 1924, and eventually eligible to vote in State elections) and citizens, that go with the job.

For some Dems, this is either a positive quality in a candidate or utterly irrelevant.

The oddest thing is that it was so fixable -- we gave it on a plate to Trippi -- come out against Inyo County v Bishop Paiute Tribe(State sends police with bolt cutters onto Reservation to seize some pay stubs), which is what just about ever Western State Governor with the semblance of a brain has done in U.S. v. Lara. Instead the chucklehead is on record in front of the NCAI with "Casios are a States issue".

Every TG in IC knows about the boltcutter case, and they know we sent Trippi Inyo County v Bishop Paiute Tribe. The irony is Abenakis never wanted casinos, and we're even divided on submitting to the Indian Government Reform Act (the *OTHER* IGRA) as a condition for federal recognition.

http://triballaw.wabanaki.net

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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-03 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #54
61. Good info, and thank you.
I actually do know of a lot of wiped out tribes, - but since we have Google I cannot prove to you that I already knew about them. I'll leave that as it is. Suffice to say I've worked as an English teacher to Dineh (Navajo) for many years and that led to other projects with the Dineh Nation.

My complaint with these Dean Haters is that they feign this hand wringing for the Abenaki ONLY because this is an issue that has not shown favorably one Dean. In truth I believe most of them could give two shits about the Abenaki or any other tribe who may have come up as a political pawn to be used against their least favorite candidate. The phoniness is putrid.

Unfortunately I don't have any experience with your people or history so I can't make a contribution to your information. I was raised as a teen in Vermont but knew very little about the local tribes except the Peqot and Mohawk. My dad used to run a ski resort called Mt Snow and he told me that it's original name is "Pis'gah" and that it was used by a local tribe as a yearly event for a foot race up that mountain. Let me know if you have any more information on this, as I've always been curious about who used it for such.

Take care.


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ebw Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #61
62. Not "wiped out", Terminated
There's over a thousand Chiloquin Klameths, but as a Tribe, with a Government-to-Government relationship with the United States, they were "Terminated". "Termination" is a word that describes a policy of the US, now obsoleted by an other policy described as "Self-Determination".

Why does Dean's record matter to Tribal Governments other than the Abenaki TG? Dean's position, shared by about a third of the States Governors, is contrary to Article II, and the Non-Intercourse Act, that State's Rights are supreme, and that States may govern Tribeal relationshipw with the Federal Government. The Executives of two of Maine's tribes came within hours of going to jail for failing to produce Tribal-EPA (Federal) correspondence in a State court, because the Maine Settlement Act (1980) creates just the relationship (in Maine) that Dean sought to preserve in Vermont. In the Western States this "reaching in" to the Tribal-Federal relationship by States is expressed in the McCarron Amendment, which places jurisdiction over water (you have spent time in Dinetah, neh?) in the State, not Federal courts. There is a bunch of tribal attornies working on this as we ... whatever is it that we're doing??

The list goes on and on. I'll publish something on the subject at http://triballaw.wabanaki.net

Now, who are these cynical folks who are figuratively bashing your hero over the head with a bound and gagged, if not utterly figurative and fictional Abenaki? I, and several Abenaki Chiefs, would like to know. Please take a moment to name names. I'll check on each one you provide.

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ebw Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #43
47. Re: Next question:
Joe Trippi contacted my spouse in May to ask what needed to be done to fix the problem. She replied with a question about a State vs Tribe jurisdiction case that went to the Supremes in the past session. That's the last we heard of the campaign's interest in problem solving.

I don't have any problems with Dean, or Trippi stonewalling. Its a tactical choice, a risk vs rewards problem, and the choice I expected them to make, knowing Dean's character, and also Trippi's record as a manager. I think it is a cowardly and stupid choice, but I think Dean (and Trippi) have a weakness for making poor choices.

Thanks for thinking about a non-white issue.

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ebw Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #43
63. just checking ... Dean did nothing wrong ...
I bring you bad news. Dean did nothing wrong here, and it will not hurt his chances of winning the nomination or the White House.

Do you still think this is the better claim to make? You can make same the conclusion regardless, right or wrong isn't necessarily controling on outcomes.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-22-03 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
2. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-22-03 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. It's the gambling waffling
He recognized that the Abenaki was a tribe enough to recognize their culture and burial grounds. He fought them because he didn't want gambling. Then he tells the tribes in New Mexico that he would support gambling. Talking out of both sides of his mouth.

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ebw Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-03 02:44 AM
Response to Reply #3
42. Re: It's the gambling waffling
This is sort of subtle. An Abenaki entity has status under a VT act equivalent with one or more VT agencies (public health). To my reading, that is State Recognition -- entity juristisdictional parity. Thanks to the Legis.

However, standing under NAGPRA, the only standing that counts, to stop disinterments by developers who've acquired cemetaries -- the "burial grounds" issue -- is one that Howard personally and vigorously opposed.

So, color Howard as you please, and two-colored works for me, on gaming, when he moves west, but his position on the repat issue is not complex.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-22-03 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. What is ADJHS?
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-03 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #4
44. AntiDean Junior High School
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-22-03 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. That once sentence does give Dean's position. But the rest of the article
sure doesn't bolster your case.

To be an Abenaki is to wander the Missisquoi swamp and sniff the fallen leaves and mud and so follow the scent of a buck. It is to know the caves where your grandmother slept in the winter and the bend in the river where your father was born.

It is to yearn that others stop casting doubt on what you see as the simple truth of your identity. Ask Larry Lapan about those who question his Indian ancestry and this slab of a man stops on a swamp path and leans heavily on his cane.

"I've chewed winter roots in my father's cellar and fished the ice floes and known a rumbling hunger in my belly many nights," said Lapan, who is 55. "I've lived the hard life of my ancestors. Jeezum, why don't you tell me exactly who they are to judge my identity?"

<snip>

"This is a old village; when stuff happened we knew how to hide in the swamps," Lampman said. "My dad always said that the Abenaki will move away, but they'll come home."

In the 1970s, Homer St. Francis, a large man who was fast with his fists, took over as chief and pushed for state recognition. Carol Delorme, 61, remembers listening to him. "It made a lot of our elders nervous," she said. "Our grandparents would tell us: 'This is what you are, but never discuss it outside the family.' It was our dirty secret."

In 1976, Gov. Tom Salmon granted the Abenaki recognition. The next year a new governor rescinded it.

<snip>

Benay tells that story to illustrate that the line between fake and real is not so hard to discern. He noted that state officials may insist that the 2,000 Swanton residents are of French American ancestry, but they know the secret their heritage holds. Yet their burial grounds often remain unrecognized, and hunting lands are sectioned into housing lots. Many Abenaki believe that they die early of cancers and strokes because of the unsettled anger of their ancients.
http://www.cmonitor.com/stories/news/recent2002/1208_ve...


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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-22-03 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. I'm not sure that the article does.
It seems very murky to me.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-22-03 08:01 PM
Response to Original message
7. gambling and land claims

Dean's disagreements with the Abenaki were well chronicled. He opposed state or federal recognition of the tribe, fearing they would launch land claims or attempt to open a casino if the federal government approved their status as a sovereign Indian nation.

The Dean campaign acknowledged the sometimes stormy relationship, but pointed out that he also reached out to the tribe during his tenure.

"There have been differences of opinion between Governor Dean and the Abenaki, but those were based on Governor Dean's well-known opposition to gaming in Vermont," said spokesman Garrett Graff.

He pointed out that Dean helped provide funding for the first Abenaki cultural museum, worked on economic development issues with the tribe and established a class on Abenaki culture in Vermont's schools.

"Governor Dean began his speech to the National Congress of American Indians by mentioning his personal opposition to gaming, but that, as president, would support it wherever it was legal," Graff said. "His directness was received by an enthusiastic and supportive audience of tribal leaders."

According to Rushlow, 2,800 Vermonters identified themselves as Native American in the 2000 census. She grudgingly gave Dean credit for some of his work with the Abenaki.

"He proclaimed the first week of May Abenaki Heritage Celebration Week. And gave us some grant money for our tribal museum," she said. "But he only did that because it could bring cultural tourism to the state of Vermont."

Rushlow said Dean once offered her state recognition during a meeting.

"He said if I would sign a claim that I would give up land claims and gambling, then we would be recognized," she said. "And those decisions are up to the community and its citizens. And since I don't have those rights, I can't give them up."

Rushlow said that while the group has not made a decision on whether they would seek to open a casino or pursue land claims if they won federal tribal recognition.

http://rutlandherald.nybor.com/News/Story/74859.html


The former physician, who gets plenty of media attention for his fund-raising and poll-grabbing, stopped by the NCAI Wednesday before meeting with Gov. Bill Richardson.

Interest in Dean was enough to derail what was supposed to be a closed-door meeting with his Native American Advisory Council prior to a full-convention speech Wednesday morning.

Before long, the closed doors turned into a standing-room-only Q&A session. Conventioneers peppered him with questions, praised him for his campaign statements and jockeyed for a closer look at Dean - the shortest and whitest guy in the room (if you discount me).

When his handlers finally got him out the door and up to the podium, he delivered a speech that hit the right notes - tribal sovereignty and health care - and got some decent applause.

Government relations, he said, should not be just "states and cities. It ought to also be about sovereign nations and tribes," he said.

Casino gambling, while not something he likes personally, "is a state issue."

http://www.abqtrib.com/archives/news03/112203_news_shea...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-22-03 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Yep, Dean's rhetoric on the campaign trail does not match his record
as governor. Once again.

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clarknyc Donating Member (393 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-22-03 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. So bitter.
Once again.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-22-03 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. What are you feeling bitter about?
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clarknyc Donating Member (393 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-22-03 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. You're a master...
at putting words in other people's mouths. I'm not bitter at all.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-22-03 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-22-03 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Well what did you mean by your post then?
All you wrote was "So bitter. Once again."

If you didn't mean you were feeling bitter, what did you mean?



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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 03:18 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #16
53. the remark was about your bitterness, I'm sure.
That bitterness with shines through with every derogatory antiDean post.


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whirlygigspin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-22-03 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. I'm an Abanaki
and we love Gov.Dean
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SahaleArm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-22-03 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Maybe you should spell it correctly first? Abenaki *nm*
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-22-03 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. It can be spelled with an "a" in place of an "e".
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seventhson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-22-03 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. Yep! Native names were spelled phonetically by "whites"
and in many instances there are more than one spelling for most tribal names -- that is because it was a European thing to "usurp" the right to name the tribes. Often they got them wrong --- but Abanaki or Abenaki -- it is probably noty how THEY would spell it if their symbols were used instead of "white" ones.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 03:05 AM
Response to Reply #10
20. Hmmm. Many others don't sound very enthusiastic at all
Edited on Sun Nov-23-03 03:06 AM by Tinoire
Time will tell because this is not playing very well in the Native American forums I visited today.

Abenaki chief wants NCAI to know Dean's record
Thursday, November 20, 2003

The chief of the Abenaki Nation of Vermont wants tribal leaders to know former governor Howard Dean's record on Indian issues.

Dean fought the tribe's federal recognition efforts. His administration submitted comments to the Bureau of Indian Affairs saying the tribe doesn't deserve federal status.

Dean says he opposed recognition because he is personally opposed to gambling. But at the National Congress of American Indians (NCAI) in Albuquerque, New Mexico, he said sovereign tribes have a right to gaming.

Get the Story:
Abenaki chief: Efforts a 'joke' (The Rutland Herald 11/20)
Dean appearance draws large crowd to NCAI (The Native American Times 11/19)

http://indianz.com/News/archives/002648.asp
--

Old article but interesting nonetheless

State throws up hurdles to Abenaki recognition


If only the Abenaki would put on their feathers, dance their dances and agree to be the sort of feel-good cultural attraction Vermont tourist officials could promote.

That, it would appear, is the attitude the state will go on taking toward the long-maligned tribe until the day Gov. Howard Dean leaves office in January.

Support their pending bid for federal recognition? Not on his watch.

Embrace a legislative resolution bestowing nonbinding state recognition? Same as above.

Just don't forget to make nice in the meantime.

That's why the Abenaki accused Dean and his administration of racism at a news conference last week.

<snip>

Last month, the Abenaki received the fruits of a Freedom of Information Act request it filed with the Bureau of Indian Affairs, asking for letters the state sent the agency concerning the Abenaki petition.

What they discovered is that the state contacted the bureau at least 16 times in 14 months, trying to find out what the Abenaki had submitted so the state could refute it.

<snip>

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/Columnists/Sam/03130...
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ebw Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. On Triballaw
Howdy folks,

It may come as a shock to you all that TribalLaw, the oldest tribal legal mailing list (we're in our second decade) is administered by an Abenaki parent. We've discussed Howard's record. There is consensus that Dean's record as Governor of Vermont vis a vis the Swanton Band of Abenaki Indians is actually worse than Bush's record as Governor of Texas vis a vis the Ysleta del Sur Tigua, the Alabama-Coushatta, and the Kickapoo Tribes. For those of you unfamiliar with GWB's record as the executive of State, I commend you to a long-time TribalLaw contributor's piece on the IMDiversity site -- here's the URL:

http://www.imdiversity.com/article_detail.asp?Article_I...

Since this is a fora for Ds, and not just Deanies or anti-Deanies, let me put what I see as the real problem in front of some non-NDN Ds.The real issue is whether or not modern Dems see Article II, the Treaty making powers of the Senate, as "dead code" and want to join Howard, and about half of the State's executives in conflict with Tribes, into the wasteland of "States Rights".

If no competitive campaign makes Dean's record (and Lieberman's too, to be fair) an issue, what protections do any candidate offer to any Indians, recognized or terminated and seeking re-recognistion, other than the usual rubber chicken nodding and plodding?

Campaigns we have contacted and been stone-walled on: Dean, Kucinich, Sharpton, Moseley-Braun, and Kerry. Campaigns we haven't yet been blown-off by: Edwards, Clark, and Lieberman.

This is not proving to be a good year to be both Indian and Democrat, at least not at the top of the ticket. Non-NDN passionate ABB Ds please do not reply that Bush is the end of the world and we must vote correctly, etc., we've had 400+ years of Bush, and having to surrender our interests to be Dems -- well, that's just not on.

Incidently, Al Gore met with two of our Band Chiefs, as well as the Federally Recognized (Maine Settlement Acts of 1980 and 1991) Tribes, at Lewiston, in the last cycle. The door to our church is open to Howard, but he must check his razor and his bubble gum at the door.

http://triballaw.wabanaki.net

Adio, Kitakitamatsinopowaw, and Wado folks,
Eric
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LuminousX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Thanks for the info ebw, and welcome to DU
Based on the poor treatment you've received thus far, is there any candidate your organization is willing to back?
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ebw Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Re: Thanks for the info ebw, and welcome to DU
First, TribalLaw is not an organization. It is a working list of practitioners, students, and political advisers.

Second, no candidate has put out a policy statement (or asked to have one drafted).

Seriously, Dean's getting a pass from all the other candidates, the candidates of color and the candidates who are not colored, on his record, has us re-examining fundamentals.

Adio, Kitakitamatsinopowaw, and Wado,
Eric
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Jerseycoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #26
35. Clark's Policy Statement
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ebw Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. Re: Clark's Policy Statement
Not particularly bad, and not particularly specific either. Whoever wrote it couldn't control the urge to segway back onto more familiar turf, and could benefit by reading Gephardt's position paper. That one's the best in this cycle's set of position papers.

Thanks for posting this, I'm probably going to be sucked into a meet-and-greet next week.
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Jerseycoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #37
48. Well, let us know what happens
Tell them you can give them some useful critique. And good luck whatever you do. B-)
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ebw Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #48
49. FYI: The Gephardt position paper
Things to keep in mind are that Gep's been in the Congressional NA Caucus for a long, and effective time. That said, his view of Indian Country is regionally limited -- the Alaskan Settlement Act, Native Hawai'i (the subject of the Akaka Bill in the Senate, please see http://triballaw.wabanaki.net/archives/000018.html ), the non-ratified Treaty Tribes (CA/OR/WA), the Oklahoma Tribes, and the Southern and Eastern Tribes (federally recognized and not federally recognized) are not in his usual perview. He's good on what Germans call "Indians". Plains and Basin tribes.

Here's the link. Manditory reading for anyone pretending to have a clue, regardless of what they think of the candidate.

http://www.dickgephardt2004.com/plugin/template/gephard...

http://triballaw.wabanaki.net
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Jerseycoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. Thanks
I read it all. Gephardt does look good for you. Maybe we can do better on our policy statement. I hope so.
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ebw Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. The policy paper, not the campaign
I'm evaluating/criticing policy papers, campaign positions (like Dom-Omerta on Abenakis), and experience limitations. I don't think there is an Indian living who doesn't appreciate Gep's record and policy position, however that isn't necessarily an endorsement. Remember, not all of us are Plains-and-Basin.
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diamondsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. What can I do to help you with info
from the Kucinich campaign?

In this case, I don't think it's stonewalling you're getting, at least not deliberately. Our campaign has quite a few issues they're still working out position papers for, and I believe Native concerns are among them, however I can likely get you a statement from the campaign if that's what you're looking for.

I can say this with certainty, since Kucinich's campaign hinges on social justice reforms, he does want to address the injustices to Native Americans and he will do so in a way far more considerate of the wrongs perpetrated against the Native peoples than Howard Dean has shown.
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ebw Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Re: What can I do to help you with info
Thanks, but Dennis' campaign was my first stop, and I spent over 40 hours on DK's Maine campaign setting up their IT, (but they and DK's national campaign insist on embedding tracking gifs in their mailings, which I won't have any part of -- having written part of the W3C's P3P), and on preping their NA Virtual Outreach Coordinator.

That campaign has gotten as much of any TLer's time and attention as it is going to get. He's courting symbolic endorsements, and we want a policy that has some there there.

See my comments on Lessig's blog when DK guested, and ask National for copies of my mail. Dances with Voles is not the answer.

Adio, Kitakitamatsinopowaw, and Wado,
Eric
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diamondsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #27
33. Sorry, but you're mistaken
about the "symbolic endorsements".

I'm also sorry you've developed such a low opinion of him and his campaign because of all the candidates he's the one most inclined and most likely to show some respect to the Native American tribes and communities.

Tracking gifs- IF they actually are there (I have no way of knowing as a computer programming dunce), I can tell you they aren't being used to target people for pitches. If they were, I wouldn't hear "Why haven't I heard from anyone yet?" as often as I do.

Furthermore, I'd like to know how Dennis can write a position with "some there there" if nobody wants to tell him or his campaign what the "there" you want is? You give up because you didn't get the response you wanted, and I can tell you my NA Great Grandmother never would have done that.
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ebw Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Re: Sorry, but you're mistaken
Well, that was fun. You got everything from National I suggested? You'll have everything I sent Claudia (NA/VO), Karen (IT), and Dave (policy), because you're quick and I'm slow.

Here's today's transparent gif (from David Swanson, Kucinich Campaign" <info@kucinich.us >, Subject: Kucinich Stands Out)

<img height='1' width='1' src='http://www.kintera.org/omt/41705044.gif\' >

Much as I like DK, I'd like a candidate to run a clean on-line campaign, and that means making the "OPT-IN" agreement cover all the actual clever stuff we do with web methods to track users. I guess I just slipped into the "I used to work for DoubleClick-or-its-Equivalent" mode, and I really do think positive law is necessary here, prefereably within the framework of the EU's Data Protection Acts.

Anyway, all that matters is that we never made it to the policy people in the DK campaign, and we had other choices we had to try (very time consuming, unlike check writing).

Adio, Kitakitamatsinopowaw and Wado,
Eric

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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-03 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #23
38. Bush and South Dakota Native Americans
In 2003, the Bush administration, effectively stopped completion of a decade long project, named Mni Wiconi.. The ambitious project was designed to pipe treated water from the Missouri River to the arid Pine Ridge Reservation. Mni Wiconi, which means "water of life," would have brought water to what has been historically America's most economically depressed county.

Many of the 35,000 people on Pine Ridge do not have running water and many of the wells on the reservation are polluted by septic system percolation or contaminated by nitrates. It is not uncommon for many of the Lakota People on Pine Ridge to get their water delivered by truck or transported in jugs. As the pipeline was laid across the arid landscape of South Dakota, it brought water to Indian as well as non-Indian residents. The project was nearing completion in 2002, an election year.

George W. Bush hand-picked John Thune in 2002 to unseat incumbent Democratic Senator Tim Johnson. An effort to register voters in the Indian communities of South Dakota resulted in large numbers of new voters, that voted overwhelmingly in favor of Johnson. Pine Ridge voters voted in particularly high numbers.. The "Indian vote" propelled Johnson to the slimmest of victories. Thune's loss did not go unnoticed by the Bush White House.

Within months, the Bush administration, slashed funding to Mni Wiconi, that stopped the work on the project just as the pipeline was reaching the borders of Pine Ridge. Without access to a dependable supply of fresh water, Pine Ridge has little hope of economic development. Stopping the project just as it nears its destination is a cut of the cruelest sort, that perpetuates conditions normally associated with third world nations long suffered by the people of Pine Ridge.

George Bush describes himself as a, "compassionate conservative," but it seems his compassion stops at the borders of the Pine Ridge Reservation, and shamefully for America, so does the water of the Missouri River.

(Source: "NATIONAL PUBLIC RADIO NEWS" Broadcast 8/08/2003)
http://buffaloriver.loneweb.net/pres.bush.html
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-03 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. Yeah, Bush sucks, doesn't he?
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ebw Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-03 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #38
40. Re: Bush and South Dakota Native Americans
The odd thing is, both Carter Camp and I are several people's regular copy-ins.

So, was the Wicone a good project (several possible POV possible)?

"Where they put in the Wicone project, the pig farm was already on it. Millions of dollars worth of infrastructure, and at the end of each pipe was a proposed pig farm. That guy had millions of gallons of Mni Wiconi water promised to him," explains Carter Camp, of CARC.

The Rosebud Tribal Council was wooed by the pig farmers, cached away in secrecy, having signed confidentiality agreements with the corporation.

This is an untidy excerpt from one of Wiwona LaDuke's pieces.

Western water law is wicked subtle, and I can think of only a handfull of practioners I'd refered to a client Tribe.

What I do see in this attempt to use a complex problem in a naive way, is one band-o-whites bonking another band-o-whites over the head with a bound-and-gaged-indian, and making the claim that this is good for the indian. Like the arguement on Kos that the Cobell extension was wicked Repug-ism, missing the larger Constitutional and process issues.
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diamondsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 03:26 AM
Response to Reply #10
22. Bull.
You aren't a First Nations child or you'd know that the spelling, pronunciation and meaning of the tribal names define the people. I resent that as the descendant of First Nations people.
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ebw Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #10
32. Re: I'm an Abanaki
Is that you Pablo?

Smiling Eyes' dad
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-03 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #10
45. Shhhh!!! Do you want to see the Deanhaters implode?
;)
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SEAburb Donating Member (985 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
28. If Dean unsealed his Gov records we could clear this issue up
Deal and conceal is kinda Bushist.
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Hawkeye-X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Um.
Want another Willie Horton incident? I don't think so.
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ebw Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Re: Um
Funny you should mention 41's use of Willie Horton. That's pretty much how every campaign that uses the message "Indians, Casinos, Crime" is seen in Indian Country. We just got a whacking thick dose of it here in Maine, against the Penobscot and Passamaquoddy casino proposal (which I didn't support, along with a lot of other Maine Indians, but for other reasons), and its seen recent use elsewhere in New England. Even Arnie S. found it useful in the Summer's California Recall campaign.

Dean has used that message.

This is the kind of stuff that you can find in Campaigns and Elections, one of my favorite non-law reads.

You wish some Rs had stood up to 41 and said, "Rs don't do that sort of thing." John McCain or Olympia Snowe or ... We're waiting, possibly in vain, for Ds to stand up and say to a candidate, "Ds don't do that sort of thing." So far, no nibbles.

Adio, Kitakitamatsinopowaw, and Wado,
Eric
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SEAburb Donating Member (985 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #29
36. what's the connection between Willie Horton and Dean's sealed
records.
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ebw Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-03 02:30 AM
Response to Reply #36
41. Re: what's the connection between Willie Horton and Dean's sealed (record)
That's a good question. The prior poster asserted (mysteriously) that unsealing Dean's record would/could lead to a "Willie Horton", I think.

Dean did run a Willie Horton (Indians::Casios::Crime) message, which is in the public record, so I don't understand the prior poster's point (that unsealing Dean's sealed record would disclose a "Willie Horton").

Maybe Dean pardoned Willie too. That does seem unlikely given his views on the criminal defense bar (needs reigning in). I simply don't know. Your guess is as good or better than mine.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
30. Just like when Bush ran...
the mainstream media is for some strange reason only reporting on Dean's message, not his record.

Shame most people depend on said mainstream media for information.
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ebw Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
55. Somewhat OT, but the meta-issue -- ignorance and its cure
Maine is unique in having two (non-voting) members of legislature elected by two of the four currently recognized Tribes. The Maine Settlement Act (1980) precludes the affected Tribes (Penobscot, Passamaquoddy, Maliseets) from casino gaming, as does the Rhode Island Settlement Act and the Alaskan Native Claims Settlement Act and ... but I don't want to digress on the intellectual vacuity of Dean's "Indians, Casinos, Crime" message, which is an effective message, like Regean's "Cadillac driving Welfare Queen" one was, or Rove's "Gore's a liar".

My daughter's in 1st Grade at Riverton School, here's a link, you'll want to scroll down to about the middle of the story, where her school is mentioned.

http://www.bangornews.com/editorialnews/article.cfm/ID/...

What isn't in the story is that the wall where all the kids works are has a summary of Eastern Woodlands, Southern Woodlands, Plains, and Pueblo tribes -- and the children selected Abenakis as the representative tribe of the Eastern Woodlands. In Maine, in K-12, kids are exposed to a different story than the one Howard learned in the Hamptons. Western Maine is Abenaki land, and there are still Abenakis here, like New Hampshire and Vermont -- and Abenakis are sufficiently close to all Wabanaki Tribes in the Maritimes, Quebec, and New England, to represent all Wabanaki.

So, for those of you who read this -- why do you believe Howard's message? You now know that Settlement Acts can (and usually do) ban casino gambling (ME/RI/AK/MA/NC) and even establish landless tribes (NC). You know that States and Tribes can work constructively together, and not every State-Tribe conflict has to turn to armed confrontation. You know that Abenakis, historic and modern, can be integrated into public school curriculum without a lot of head scratching.

Do we Dems ever get beyond stupid when it comes to domestic treaty policy? If so, and the overwhelming majority of Dean supporters are indifferent to the issue, or view it cynically as being run by a compeating campaign, how? How does our party get less stupid about this issue than the Republicans are about Choice and Black and Chicano issues?
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Duder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #55
56. Killing the patient is certainly one cure,
...but not the best one, imo.

Knowledge is power and I have tremendous respect for Dean's Native American Advisors. For those interested, I'd suggest visiting this Indigenous rights activist blog for some links and information about LaDonna Harris and Wilma Mankiller - http://radio.weblogs.com/0103207/2003/11/20.html

These two women have placed their trust in Dean and I'm sure that they are aware of all the complexities of the issues with regards to the Abenakis. Perhaps more complex than the case you mentioned earlier - Inyo County v Bishop Paiute Tribe. For those interested in that case, they can find the brief here:
http://journalism.medill.northwestern.edu/docket/action...

It always increases knowledge when all sides are presented and might I suggest if you haven't already, that you look into Native Americans for Dean - http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=...
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ebw Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. Re: Killing the patient is certainly one cure
It was clever to pick LaDonna Harris and Wilma Mankiller.

However, the former executive of the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma is a thousand literal and figurative miles from Northern New England, and has not managed to speak with April Rushlow, the current executive of the Swanton Band of Abenaki (VT). This advisor serves another purpose, out in "real" Indian Country.

LaDonna Harris is more problematic. A nice person, a person with a resume, but she's got even less connection with the situation of the Eastern and Southern Tribes than Mankiller, who at least is aware of the Eastern Cherokee's progression through the DOI/BIA/BAR hoops.

All that said and done, if this election were translated to Europe, and English Howard had a problem with troublesome Irish, finding advisors somewhere in the Carpathian Alps would seem pretty damn daft. We're in the East. Howard's problem is in the East.

How are you sure that "are aware of all the complexities of the issues with regards to the Abenakis"?

Since you read briefs, you'll want to look at US v Lara, which you can find on indianz.com's splash page, and look at the analysis of State's changing alignments on the boltcutter cases.

Thanks for suggesting that there is a fix for Howard's problem with the Abenakis, somewhere awfully far away from Vermont.
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ebw Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. Re: Killing the patient is certainly one cure (part deux)
So I mentioned your theory that Mankiller and Harris is all that Dean needs to two Wabanki Chiefs today. It got a "who" from one, and a "so" from another. Its pretty funny.
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Duder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. Well tell them...
Ho! Mitakuye Oyasin

I was surprised today to learn that April's father had once ran for governor in 94 against Dr. Dean.
Perhaps a case of too many Chiefs...
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ebw Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. Re: Well tell them...
Let me know when you've read State v. Elliot (1992). That's always good for a grin. You can google for that, or get it from the National office. If ever there was a State case that was 180 degrees contrary to Passamaquoddy v Morton (1975), Elliot is it.
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ebw Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 07:45 PM
Response to Original message
64. kick
...
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