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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 03:53 PM
Original message
Poll question: Who is most evil?
Edited on Sun Nov-16-03 03:55 PM by HypnoToad
Osama - doing what he can to fight an evil nation that once helped his lot fight another evil.

Saddam - ditto. Did he really attack Kuwait to get their oil, or to keep the US from having it?

W - a man who openly supports what is basically evil in this country. (health care swindles, big corporation swindles, globalization swindles (also see big corproation swindles, tax cut swindles while spending exorbitant amounts of money and creating a debt we will NEVER get out of and showing he doesn't care about his own country), oil industry swindles, political/judicial swindles, you name it. What he supports is surely not GOOD, and if he wants to live in a black/or/white world, so can I. How isn't it evil, do set me straight.)

Sorry, polls are turned off at Level 3.

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tnlefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
1. Me as I'm sittin' here eating a pretzel, watching Smirky* getting punched
repeatedly and getting some wierd satisfaction from it!
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johnnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. pretzels???
Be careful with those..they can do some damage....or so I have heard
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warner Donating Member (19 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
2. Osama hates Amercians, not America
Id have to say Osama, when he kills innocent people he shows his hatred for us! I think he would actually like America and the freedoms we have, but cant stand Americans support for our foreign policy. Any thoughts?
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JailBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. Does Osama really hate Americans, or is he simply callous?
Many military commanders and terrorists have killed civilians, few with greater efficiency than the USA in Vietnam. I suspect Osama would have preferred to target U.S. military bases, but they're better protected.

I believe it's on record that Osama wants the U.S. out of Saudi Arabia, or maybe the Middle East in general. Whether that's acceptable or not, you can't deny we've done immense damage there - hardly beginning in Iraq.

Saddam Hussein murdered his own subjects - not to advance a cause but to keep his miserable carcass in power. Similarly, George W. Bush is busily trashing our civil liberties for the same purpose.

I would love to see some organization conduct a global poll asking people to name the ten most EVIL and DANGEROUS people in the world. I strongly suspect George W. Bush would rank #1 on the Dangerous list and possibly on the Evil list as well. I suspect that Bush, Bill Gates and Saddam Hussein would all rank higher on both lists than Osama bin Laden, who is actually revered as a hero by millions of Muslims - and probably quite a few non-Muslims.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. But Americans compose America
And the wealthy invariably call the shots because WE allowed them to take control for all of us, despite the Constition demanding that WE, THE PEOPLE govern this country.

But I disgress... Yes, Osama would have loved the freedoms we had. (bush took a lot of them away and stands to take away far more with 'patriot' act II. Let alone his attitude toward all Muslims since 9/11.) Osama probably HAS seen our foreign policies in action and thinks we're hypocritical, if not generally vile.

Back to digressing: :D

It is their actions the world sees and that is why we are hated.

Personally, I don't know if Osama hates us because we're not as fanatical about his religion as he is. Or if he really has studied our country to any great detail and how our actions are destructive in nature. It would be nice if he told us why, not that we'd do anything to change anyway...

Bush showing his hatred of Muslims everywhere in return did not help either. 'collateral damage' is also an excuse to slaughter thousands of their people in return. It's called "an eye for an eye". That's great in some circumstances, but in others it only exacerbates problems. Especially when it wasn't even an organized country that attacked us.

Remember bush's own comment on being a dicator and how much easier it would be. He spoke volumes that day, he truly did. Our "president" wants to be as much of a dictator as those he is overthrowing, claiming them to be dictators. :eyes: Pot calling kettles black?! bush is indeed a dangerous creature... )

Personally, I wish all warmongers would disappear for good right now. This means most governments would collpase and we'd be rid of all of the republican party and most of the democrats would vanish as well.
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Blitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #10
16. Regarding your sig line
and your comments:

What do you think REAL American ideals are and what do you base your answer on? Just curious.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #2
43. I do not think so at all
He is a religious extremist. I think he would hate us as infiidels. He does not like freedom, he likes brutal implementation of islamic law.
He sees us as a corrupting, non-muslim influence.
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JailBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 04:02 PM
Response to Original message
4. Wow!
In my opinion, Osama bin Laden doesn't even begin to compare to Saddam and George W. Bush. Osama is fighting for a cause, and those his tactics may be no better than Bush's, his is a better cause.

I think Saddam Hussein is the most evil of the three - though we really can't judge Bush because he's still hampered by whatever remains of our democratic institutions.

Bush is by far the biggest MENACE, because his evil is harnessed behind the world's most powerful nation.
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johnnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. But...
Shrub's terroist acts have already caused the deaths of close to 10,000 Iraqi civilians, and over 400 Americans. Not including coaliton deaths.
He seems pretty evil to me...
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JailBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. You have to factor torture into the equation.
Saddam's use of torture is well known. Of course, Bush engages in torture by proxy - sending suspects to terrorist states, where they may be interrogated to Bush's standards.

To put it in perspective, compare Bush to Hitler. Hitler waged a war of genocide against Jews and Gypsies. If Bush tried to exterminate an entire race, he'd face an enormous backlash in a nation that's largely minority - with many whites siding with minorities.

But what if the United States' population was 95% white and 5% black, and Bush had even more power than he does now? Would he put the gas ovens to work?

If so, then he would truly vie with Saddam Hussein and Adolph Hitler for the title MOST EVIL, not just MOST DANGEROUS. Frankly, I think Bush WOULD exterminate entire races if he had dictatorial powers.
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IronLionZion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #8
25. he would exterminate democrats
:evilgrin:
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #8
44. I doubt it
It does not fit with his MO. It is unlikely to me that he would build gas chambers. I have seen no evidence to support this claim.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. Agreed on most counts, BUT
How do you define "Osama a better cause"? I know little of that region, apart from human rights atrocities commited against women and percevied homosexuals (and actual homosexuals, but being percieved as one is bad enough...)

Remember, bush once said it would be easier if it were a dictatorship. Meanwhile he's overthrowing people he calls dictators... His removing of constitutional freedoms (except 2nd amendment ones which will ensure terrorists can have their weapons to kill us with...) and other acts don't make bush* stand out as being a good guy either. bush seems pretty evil to me.

And the most evil thing we knew Saddam did was to take over Kuwait. Was he greedy for their pocket of oil, or was he trying to get the oil just so the US wouldn't get it? Saddam has made comments in the past about oil and power and who has it is the most powerful... (powerful because they would then have control over the people who neeed vast quantities of it like the United States. So Saddam isn't that nice of a guy either, it depends on your point of view...)
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Character Assassin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #4
18. Fundamentalist Islam is 'better' cause?
Perhaps you need to rethink that one.

Establishing a fundamentalist islamic theocracy isn't a good idea at any time, in any place, for any reason.
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regnaD kciN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 03:29 AM
Response to Reply #4
36. Are you joking...???
In my opinion, Osama bin Laden doesn't even begin to compare to Saddam and George W. Bush. Osama is fighting for a cause, and those his tactics may be no better than Bush's, his is a better cause.

"...his is a better cause"...????????

You think imposing ObL's radical version of Islam on the world is a "better cause?" Would you like to live in a world that was just like Afghanistan under the Taliban? Where women had to keep themselves covered in head-to-toe burquas, where music was banned, where men were stopped by security forces and punished if their beards weren't the required length? A world where the "Agency for the Promotion of Virtue and the Elimination of Vice" had dictatorial power?

Maybe you should move to one of those backwater villages in Afghanistan or Pakistan where the Taliban's version of Shariah still applies, and see if you think the imposition of such a society over the entire world is a "better cause?" For me, if the only choice, God forbid, was between living under the Taliban or living under the Republicans...I'd be starting up the George W. Bush Fan Club in record time!

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mobuto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 03:38 AM
Response to Reply #4
37. Better Cause? WTF?
Funny, but establishing theocracy, forcing five and a half billion people either to convert to your faith or die, subjecting women to effective slavery, overthrowing every government in the world, outlawing music and film and dancing and hair cuts, and effectively reducing the state of human civilization to that of the seventh century all rank low on my list of good causes to support.

If you disagree, what the hell are you doing on DU?
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #4
40. a better cause?
His cause is to make the world into an islamic theocracy with no rights whatsoever and brutal islamic law. Not a good cause at all.
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FDRrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 04:05 PM
Response to Original message
5. Who has caused more death and desperation?
Edited on Sun Nov-16-03 04:05 PM by FDRrocks
It's debatable. I threw my chip to GW.

Oh, and Saddam attacked Kuwait b/c they were taking Iraqi oil via slant-drilling.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. Ah... that changes the matter utterly.
If Kuwait was stealing oil in Iraqi territory via slant drilling, then Hussein had every right to respond, though what I don't know is if he tried peaceful methods first. Invasion is definitely a significant step, one that civilized people would try to avoid...

That also means the daddy bush war was utterly uncalled for and also explains the death threat Saddam gave to daddy bush. It then makes the sanctions against Iraq uncalled for.

Saddam still did nasty things to his own people and was a dictator, but he was in his own soverign country and could do what he want, and the US cause of "liberation" wasn't founded until long after our invasion began so I don't buy that excuse for an attosecond.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #14
54. slant drilling was an excuse--he owed Kuwait billions of $$$
Saddam believed that kuwait was a province of Iraq, because they had been in the same district of the ottoman empire. He intended to annex it.
Second, Iraq owed Kuwait and Saudi Arabia tens of billions of dollars and was in terrible financial shape after the Iran-Iraq war. Kuwait loaned him billions upon billions of dollars during the war and he was not attempting to pay them back. So by your logic, the slant drilling was justified by saddam's massive debt.
Third, he wanted to create a pan-Arab state under himself, just like that of Baathist and Nasserist philosophy.
Four---He wanted to dominate the world oil market.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #5
41. No, iraq wanted to annex Kuwait since the 1930s
because they believed that country was rightly theirs, as they were both part of the mesopotamian district of the Ottoman Empire.
Slant drilling was an excuse.

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HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
9. I can't believe Saddma doesn't have a vote
He is a very evil man
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pippin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
11. don't forget
dirty Dick Cheney, warring Wolfowitz, Perle, Mama Baba Bush et al. the whole bloody cartel are a clan of really evil people.
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TheReligiousLeft Donating Member (647 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
13. Bush, who else would get apocalyptic stuff wrote about him?
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amber dog democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
15. Entire Bush Family
Going back to Prescott - but Bushes Cabinnet needs to be included as well.
Evil
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mello yello Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 07:23 PM
Response to Original message
17. Is this real
I'm new here folks, so take it easy on me. Is this for real? That many of you really think Bush is more "evil" than Osama and Saddam ? I'm hoping this is some sort of inside joke I don't know yet. Are any of you American citizens ?
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HornBuckler Donating Member (978 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Welcome
Howdy Mello Yello (That's A Tasty Soda BTW) Yes, It's Real - Atleast In My Opinion.
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rbnyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. The reason I voted for Bush in this poll:
Edited on Mon Nov-17-03 07:47 PM by rbnyc
First, I dont take the term evil very seriously. I think its a cop-out. When you say someone is evil you discount the human element. By calling someone or something evil, we kind of shirk our own responsibility for the human condition.

Also, I think that Bin Ladens stated goal is to kill as many Americans as possible. I think that Hussein was pretty up-front about being a despot. They are both horrible men, but we can take them at face value. When Bush does social and economic violence to children, he calls it No child left behind when he sells out forests to the logging industry he calls it the Healthy Forests Initiative. We could come up with examples like these for months.

But my point is that its pretty plain that the others in this poll are evil. Bush, who has butchered for personal profit, who has committed equal crimes, deserves equal regard.

Welcome to DU.

:hi:

EDIT: typo


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IronLionZion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #17
27. Welcome!
It is somewhat of a joke. People here feel a passionate dislike of our President's policies and say he is evil or that they hate him.

Noone here would kill Bush if they had the chance or want him to be killed.

Many of us would easily kill Osama or Saddam.

Don't worry, we're not traitors planning a violent bloody revolution.

The people here love America more than our Government does and we are mostly Democrat, with a few Independents, Republicans, Greens, Socialists, etc to mix it up.

Enjoy!
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #17
39. Hi mello yello!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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mello yello Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-03 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #17
64. So I guess it is a joke
And thank God for that. The volume of hate is just to much for me. So many of us hate Bush so much that it has become like a huge Jr High school joke.

So many spew so much hate toward this man that the point of their message is hate, not support for this or that, not I'm in favor of this or that, just hate hate hate hate hate. Its pure insanity.

I hear so many people who have become only about hate that they don't seem like genuine contributors to the cause anymore, if they ever were?

I fear all this mindless hate will drive me away from the Democratic party. This poll and what it really truly means is one of the best examples of this orgy of hate engulfing us.

GWB may be the silliest man ever to serve as President, but if any of you or anyone for that matter honestly believes life under a Saddam or Osama would be an improvement over life under GWB, thats just illness, pure and simple illness.
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onebigbadwulf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 07:42 PM
Response to Original message
20. Objective civilian death count...
Edited on Mon Nov-17-03 07:42 PM by onebigbadwulf
Osama - 3000
Saddam- a few thousand
Bush- tens of thousands


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Blitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Does that mean FDR and Truman were more evil than Bush?
And you may want to study that Saddam bodycount a bit ... you're missing a few zeros.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #23
46. The Al-Q was is off a bit too
9-11 is not the only time Al-Q killed people.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #20
45. Saddam only a few thousansd? not likely!
He was a hardcore stalinist dictator credited with hundreds of thousands. Before the war there were almost 200,000 missing Kurds alone in Iraq. That is just missing.
After the first Gulf war an estimated 300,000 people were killed by his RG and Special RG.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
22. Wait a second...
Since when do the ends justify the means?
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IronLionZion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
24. Saddam definitely
Evil is not how many people you've killed because then God trumps all. It's all about your reasons and state of mind.

Osama really believes he is fighting to free his muslim people. He is still evil.

Bush doesn't have any fucking clue what is going on. He does what he is told and he probably thinks he is making the world safe for Halliburton and the Carlyle Group.

Saddam is not fighting for anyone except himself. He has no cause, no remorse, and no scruples at all. Osama and Bush take care of their own, Saddam kills his own.

I think they are all evil. :mad:
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onebigbadwulf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. Saddam doesnt kill his own
He kills traitors

Since when are traitors considered your own?
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Blitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Oh, I'm going to have to save that one
That's a CLASSIC post. "Saddam kills traitors."

Wow. And here I thought I couldn't be shocked anymore (NSMA retains the crown).
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onebigbadwulf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 03:29 AM
Response to Reply #29
35. What are you talking about
The kurds were insurrecting when they were killed. In a time of war that is called treason.


I don't agree with it, but even American law says treason is punishable by death.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #29
47. and Stalin only killed 'class enemies'
and 'enemies of the people'.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #28
42. traitors in the stalinist sense?
potential rivals, hostile populations etc is more likely
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Dr Satan Donating Member (183 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 08:33 PM
Response to Original message
26. none of the above
all of them do "Evil" things for a reason, not evil for the sake of evil.
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LiviaOlivia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 09:28 PM
Response to Original message
30. Oh, the things done in God's name..
A pox on all their houses.
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AntiCoup2K4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 09:31 PM
Response to Original message
31. George HW Bush Sr
Because he created Osama, Saddam, AND Junior, so all of their evils descend from him.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
AntiCoup2K4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. In a way, you're right....
Edited on Mon Nov-17-03 11:04 PM by AntiCoup2k
As long as the FAUX loving sheep continue to turn a blind eye to the century of evil fascist crime perpetuated upon this nation by the Bush Criminal Empire, It's possible they might get "elected". Hell even if Junior's ass is booted in 2004, they'll probably count on the convenient memory loss of the brainwashed masses and run Jebbie in 2008 :eyes:
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #31
48. Not true
Osama was an Islamic revolutionary before the CIA ever dealt with him, and even then the CIA wasn't the main foreign government aiding Al-Q in Afghanistan---Pakistan and Saudi Arabia were.
Saddam created himself. He kowtowed to no one. He was actually very hostile to the US for most of his political career, far closer to the USSr and China, even during the Iran-Iraq war. The Soviet bloc, China and France supplied most of his weaponry, not George Bush senior.
George Bush Sr. does have to take responsibility for his son though.
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AntiCoup2K4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #48
63. All part of Poppy's plans
Osama was an Islamic revolutionary before the CIA ever dealt with him, and even then the CIA wasn't the main foreign government aiding Al-Q in Afghanistan---Pakistan and Saudi Arabia were.

Pakistan's ISI is a CIA franchise operation. And the connection between the House of Saud and the House of Bush has been well established, as has the connection between the Bush and Bin Laden families.

Saddam created himself. He kowtowed to no one. He was actually very hostile to the US for most of his political career, far closer to the USSr and China, even during the Iran-Iraq war. The Soviet bloc, China and France supplied most of his weaponry, not George Bush senior.


Sure about that?

And BTW, the CIA very much "assisted" Saddam's rise to power in Iraq.

George Bush Sr. does have to take responsibility for his son though.

Too bad he didn't "take responsibility" before hand and use a condom :evilfrown:
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regnaD kciN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 03:22 AM
Response to Original message
34. This is the sort of poll that gives Democrats a bad name...
Seriously, can you imagine what conservatives will do with a poll showing that most of us think the President is "more evil" than Osama bin Laden?

:eyes:

Yes, Bush is a jerk. Yes, he is running a corrupt, authoritarian regime. Yes, he would like to be a dictator. But there is nothing in Bush's record to compare with the 9/11 attacks or any of the other terrorist actions ObL has staged.

Bush may want us behind bars. Osama bin Laden wants us dead. Every one of us. You, me, my five-year-old daughter asleep in the next room. He has even twisted Islam (which has always held that innocent non-combatants are to be spared) to claim that no one in the United States is "innocent." We all are condemned to death by ObL and his zealots.

If you can't tell the difference between the evil represented by Bush and the evil represented by Osama bin Laden, I have very little confidence in your judgement on any matter.

:argh:

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mobuto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 03:48 AM
Response to Original message
38. This is ridiculous
and it reflects very poorly on DU as a mainstream venue for debate amongst Democrats.

I shouldn't even respond to this nonsense, but I must -briefly.

For one thing, unless you adhere to Osama bin Laden's particular version of Sunni Islam, he wants to kill you. Now I'm not fan of Bush, but one of the things noticeably left out of last year's State of the Union was a call for the extermination of 9/10 of the world's six billion people. And while his views on women are notoriously medieval (except perhaps next to those of John Ashcroft), he hasn't called for their effective enslavement the way Bin Laden has. And while Bush has overthrown two governments, Bin Laden wants to overthrow every government, and unite the world under his tyranny as Caliph. Sorry, but this is comparison sucks.

Now on to Saddam. Saddam killed literally millions of Iranian, Kurds and Shi'ites. Well, that's that.
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VermontDem2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
49. Bush
He is currently killing thousands of Iraqi citizens who have done nothing to us.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #49
51. and Saddam didn't kill thousands
of Iraqi citizens who did nothing to him?

I would debate 'currently' killing thousands of civilians. I do not know how many were killed in the war, but I doubt that thousands are being killed in cold blood now.
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VermontDem2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #51
53. I didn't say Saddam didn't
But I believe there are well over 50,000 Iraqi causualties.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #53
56. casualties is the key
How many Iraqi, how many foreign? How many baath militia, how many regular army? How many armed Islamic fundies, how many civilians? How many civilians? How many killed and how many wounded?

And I have seen no source that has a definitive # of casualties. Everything else is guessing.
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VermontDem2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #56
58. Ok so civilians aren't being killed?
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. I did not say that
But I do not know the numbers and I am not going to specualte idly. And in a guerilla war, like during both the Afghan and Iraq conflicts, many combatants did not wear a uniform of any kind--so if they were killed and later displayed as a 'civilian', no one would be able to prove otherwise.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
50. The way i look at it
is who I would be least afraid of running the country.
Osama--would create a backward Islamic fundamentalist state with Sharia and beheadings. It would be like the Taliban. No way.
Saddam--would create a stalinist state with no rights at all. Who knows what he would do with the kind of power george W has either? Probably much, much worse than Bush.
GWB-I do not like him, but I would rather have him than Saddam's stalinism or Osama's fundamentalism. I would much rather have howard Dean than any of them.
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VermontDem2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #50
52. Those two guys wouldn't be able to do what they do
in their countries in this country. Bush is doing what he can with limited power, he would be impeached, arrested, etc if he executed one person with no reason and same with OBL and Saddam Hussein. Would you like living in a third world country that is being attacked daily for the last 5 months by the most powerfull nation in the world?
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #52
55. No
I would not want to live in Iraq. The general population is not being attacked, they are being occupied. Not a good situation, I agree.
But I would probably be even worse off living under Saddam in Iraq.
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VermontDem2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #55
57. I have to disagree
I seen reports where troops shot a kid on the roof of his own house because they thought he was a sniper. I would not like a bunch of foreigners with guns patrolling my country. They are being occupied now, but not before they were being bombed every night for 3 consecutive weeks.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #57
59. My grandparents grew up under Stalin
and they felt it was worse than WWII--in Russia, which was the bloodiest war ever fought. My grandmother felt that the time of the great purge was the most terrifying time of her life. Constant terror, paranoia. That grinds the sould more than a period of intense excitement.
Both my grandparents were slave laborers in Nazi Germany, my grandfather as a POW and my grandmother deported as a forced laborer from Rostov (they met as slave laborers).
Both of them agreed that years of living under Stalin was more awful than the war and forced labor camps.
I compare this to the Iraqis because Saddam mastered many of Stalin's methods. Also, this Iraq war was a piker compared to The Russian Front, where 27 million Russians and more than 2 million germans perished between 1941-1945.
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VermontDem2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. Just forget it
They are equally as evil, it's the lounge don't take everything in here seriously and I believe no one is just simply "evil". It wasn't posted in the general discussion forum. But call me a conspiracist nutcase all you want but I wouldn't be surprised if Bush is friends with Bin Laden.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. They might be
Bush hangs out with the Saudis after all. It seems he doesn't mind Islamic fundies when they have oil...
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sujan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-03 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
65. OBL and SH are much more evil
GWB and his minions aren't far behind.
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