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pinkpops Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-03 08:06 PM
Original message
They've had him for months.
Then they put him in the hole and turned him in to themselves.
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jonoboy Donating Member (759 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-03 08:09 PM
Response to Original message
1. I'm smelling a rat as well
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-03 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Me, too.
The problem is trying to convince others of that without sounding paranoid, crazy, and desperate.
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arewethereyet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-03 08:11 PM
Response to Original message
3. not that I put it past them but I don't think so
its too easy for that to get found out.

If he dies in captivity then I KNOW he's still alive and being interrogated with unacceptable means.
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kalian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-03 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Oh, he'll die all right....
once they get the info that the WMDs are in Syria... :eyes:
They're setting up the next stage. Enjoy.
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Myra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-03 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #4
29. Oo, you're right. Somehow his "capture" will lead to the next PNAC nation.
Then the next...

Thought it would be Iran then Syria though.
Well, I guess they can handle them both at once,
once they bring the draft back.



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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-03 08:14 PM
Response to Original message
5. Wouldn't put it past them. nt
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rooboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-03 08:16 PM
Response to Original message
6. The only thing predictable about the WH and Pentagon is lying.
Wouldn't be surprised if the story changes. It always does.
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dflprincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-03 08:16 PM
Response to Original message
7. I hadn't considered this possibility
Though I wouldn't put it past the Bushistas.

My first thought was - assuming he was captured in the last 24 hours -that I was surprised they hadn't held off on the announcement until October.
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corporatewhore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-03 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
8. and around th general election
Osama will be pulled out
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radwriter0555 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-03 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. No. bin laden has been dead for quite some time, possibly since
2001....
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radwriter0555 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-03 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
9. I agree a million percent. Figured it out this afternoon on errands..
cause it all stinks.
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aint_no_life_nowhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-03 08:36 PM
Response to Original message
11. Are video cameras taken on every raid?
I assume there have been dozens and dozens of false tips on Saddam and many unproductive raids to find him. Here, a video camera accompanied the troops and shot the actual place where Saddam was holed up. Moreover, CNN said that among the troops who captured Saddam, many of the soldiers had cameras and took snapshots of the event and of each other, in triumph. Is this unusual or not?
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-03 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #11
21. Why not? Cameras aren't exactly expensive. Also...
sending a vidcam along on every operation would make military sense. It would help a lot with after op debriefing. So I don't see any problem with a few cheap vidcams along.
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aint_no_life_nowhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-03 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. what about the still photos the soldiers were seen taking?
n/t
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mb7588a Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-03 05:45 AM
Response to Reply #11
37. Special forces do use cameras quite often,
They learned it from the Israelis. So when questions get asked, they can show what happened.

I'm not sure if cameras are used in every operation. I doubt that. I don't think there's rules against soldiers carrying cameras in their pockets is there?
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Gingersnap Donating Member (420 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-03 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
12. that was my first reaction too
I mean, hiding in a hole? Unshaven and thinner? My first thought was that he's been held somewhere as a prisoner (and probably starved and tortured) for a long, long time and they just pulled this out of the air to up Bush's ratings (since the plastic turkey bit didn't seem to work). I'm still puzzled by the timing--Sundays not an optimal newsday, is it?

Hell, he had $750,000 with him in $100s and had to live in a hole, while there are apparently all these Baathist supporters willing to kill themselves to defend the homeland? Our own govt. is living proof that there are many evil, greedy people in the world willing to dine with the devil for money, how could it be that no one was willing to help Saddam out so that he didn't have to live in a hole?

Maybe it's tinfoil hat time, but I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop.
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BrotherBuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-03 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Sundays not an optimal newsday?
Saddam, football, Saddam, football, Saddam...Like shooting fish in a barrel.
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-03 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #14
43. The news of Saddam Hussein was given out at each and every,,
football game. Ya think Karl Rove is stupid or something?
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Hailtothechimp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-03 09:03 PM
Response to Original message
13. Reasons not to believe that it is Saddam...
Look at the track record of this group:

1. Campaign statements such as "I'm a uniter, not a divider" and "I'll change the tone in Washington."

2. The Jessica Lynch story (by now completely discredited)

3. "We had no idea that people could use airplanes as weapons" (Condi said it, but who believes it now?)

4. The San Diego skyline being hidden from the camera view on the USS Lincoln
4a. Was the carrier REALLY out of reach of a helicopter?
4b. Just how did the "Mission Accomplished" banner get there?

5. the "16 words" from the last SOTU address.

6. How many supposed 9/11 hijackers are reported to still be alive? At least 8.

7. The fake turkey/deception of reporters/false flight plan/ever-changing British Airways story from the "trip" to Baghdad.

People will believe it's Saddam because they need to, or because they overlook all the times they have already been lied to. But there isn't any good reason to believe that Saddam has been captured, because so many lies have already been told and (apparently) accepted.
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OneTwentyoNine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-03 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Saddam's kids could identify him...Oh yeah,Bush had them killed n/t
...
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-03 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. Not all of them. He had some daughters too, and they are alive. n/t
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cliss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-03 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #13
23. That captures it, HTTC.
Amazing that your numbers matched mine, exactly. I keep those lies like a little shopping list in my head, and I recall them every time I (unfortunately) think of Half-wit Bush.

And there's more! These are only small (but very glaring examples) of this "fake" presidency. Everything about the man is fake, an illusion. Everything is scripted, rehearsed.

I posted on a thread that I finally came to the conclusion that Bush is a hologram, like the one Rd-D2 played for Luke Skywalker in Star Wars.

The fake turkey is so symbolic for this administration. Flashback to the Photo-Op of `Half-baked Bush standing there with a big smile on his face, holding a very big platter of plastic.
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Myra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-03 09:21 PM
Response to Original message
16. Most likely. They had him on ice until they needed him to counter
Edited on Sun Dec-14-03 09:24 PM by Myra
The unfavorable news du jour.

Halliburton, General Clark's Hague testimony,...

On edit: Not to mention the holidays coming up...
Thank you Santa Bush!
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WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-03 09:21 PM
Response to Original message
17. of course
why wouldn't they?
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TeeYiYi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-03 09:22 PM
Response to Original message
18. Disoriented and chatty . . .
. . . sounds like me when I'm waking up from being under anesthesia . . .

The news whores keep saying that he was disoriented and "chatty, chatty, chatty". All the way to wherever it was they took him. And then he clammed up . . .

He probably did get quiet when the drugs started to wear off. Yeah. Something isn't right here. We're not getting the real story. But then . . . SURPRISE. Who ever thought that we would?

The movie should be out in a couple of weeks. Then we'll know the whole story . . . :eyes:

TYY
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-03 09:22 PM
Response to Original message
19. Sure they had him. They waited till the primaries divided the Dem party
and they were content that Dean would be the nominee. That's how they operate.
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elsiesummers Donating Member (723 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-03 03:21 AM
Response to Reply #19
31. Totally
Clark about to testify against Milosevik.

Edwards was bumped from 60 minutes.

The one thing they have always had in their power is the ability to set the timetable of the news - to make news.

And Dean has run a great campagin, no doubt, but he is the one they want.

I totally get why the Deanies love him - he fights back.

But as a Democrat who wants to win, this sucks!!!
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FXDS Donating Member (155 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-03 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
20. This Smells!
I agree with another poster. I think they have had Saddam locked up for several months. The capture of Osama will also be front page news around October 2004! There is nothing that this bunch of thugs won't do to hold on to power!
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TeeYiYi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-03 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
24. A sad but true analogy . . .
. . . at Easter, the adults hide eggs, candy and money and then, when it's time, send the kids out to find the desired booty; kids being clueless that the adults were behind the deception.

I see the coalition troops who found Saddam today in much the same light. Rove and Co. have probably had that egg hidden for months . . .

TYY
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terrisel Donating Member (168 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-03 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Great analogy--An Egg Hunt
I'd like to keep that in mind.

The WMD were probably intended to be planted also but something must have prevented them being planted in time--before too many people lost faith in that particular Easter Bunny.
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Matilda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-03 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. There could be something in this ...
Here's a link to a story from Buzflash:

http://www.pantagraph.com/stories/120203/new_20031202014.shtml

Bush has been copping heaps over the plastic Thanksgiving turkey,
and Dean's been getting headlines because of Gore's endoresment,
so maybe this was a good time for a positive Bush story.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-03 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
25. I doubt it
There would have been much more strategic times for this news to hit.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-03 03:14 AM
Response to Original message
30. Two points
1. If they wanted to bring him out on a particular day, today wasn't the day. A weekend during Christmas shopping season is hardly the best day to release good news. A better day would have been the day of the New Hampshire primary.

2. I doubt if Saddam was living in the hole. He was probably living in the farmhouse and when they saw the US troops surround the place up to two km away, they put Saddam in the hiding place they had carved out.
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Sideways Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-03 05:10 AM
Response to Reply #30
32. Why Isn't There Any Footage Of Him Being Pulled Out Of The Hole?
Has anyone seen that image? Anyone? These asswipes record everything and yet no camera was on hand to get the real time shot of Saddam being pulled from the spider hole? Why is that? HHHMMMMMM
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laylah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-03 05:35 AM
Response to Reply #32
35. Great minds think alike!
That was my first question. Pictures of before and after but none during the "under the cover of darkness and with lightening speed" capture of SH? This whole thing reeks to high heaven...but then everything about this mis-administration does! :puke:
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-03 05:18 AM
Response to Original message
33. He was hiding up the chimney...
Edited on Mon Dec-15-03 05:19 AM by Cronus
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-03 07:26 AM
Response to Reply #33
42. Saddam Claus ???
:shrug:
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imax2268 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-03 05:21 AM
Response to Original message
34. Did anyone
else hear different stories about his hiding place...

I heard in one explanation that it was covered with just a stirafoam lid and a blanket...

then I heard bricks and mud...

maybe it's nothing I don't know...
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-03 05:43 AM
Response to Original message
36. DEVKA report says he was captive for weeks, Kurds involved
Edited on Mon Dec-15-03 06:36 AM by Tinoire
and their report makes a hell of a lot more sense than our Hollywood version.

Devka: Indications Saddam Was Not in Hiding But a Captive

Edited on Sun Dec-14-03 02:47 PM by Tinoire
Disclaimer: My take on Devka is that they are 70% Mossad disinformation & 30% truth. Problem is it's hard to tell which is which. This report however makes a lot of sense!

==============

AA number of questions are raised by the incredibly bedraggled, tired and crushed condition of this once savage, dapper and pampered ruler who was discovered in a hole in the ground on Saturday, December 13:

  • The length and state of his hair indicated he had not seen a barber or even had a shampoo for several weeks.
  • The wild state of his beard indicated he had not shaved for the same period
  • The hole dug in the floor of a cellar in a farm compound near Tikrit was primitive indeed 6ft across and 8ft across with minimal sanitary arrangements - a far cry from his opulent palaces.
  • Saddam looked beaten and hungry.
  • Detained trying to escape were two unidentified men. Left with him were two AK-47 assault guns and a pistol, none of which were used.
  • The hole had only one opening. It was not only camouflaged with mud and bricks it was blocked. He could not have climbed out without someone on the outside removing the covering.
  • And most important, $750,000 in 100-dollar notes were found with him (a pittance for his captors who expected a $25m reward) but no communications equipment of any kind, whether cell phone or even a carrier pigeon for contacting the outside world.

According to DEBKAfile analysts, these seven anomalies point to one conclusion: Saddam Hussein was not in hiding; he was a prisoner.

After his last audiotaped message was delivered and aired over al Arabiya TV on Sunday November 16, on the occasion of Ramadan, Saddam was seized, possibly with the connivance of his own men, and held in that hole in Adwar for three weeks or more, which would have accounted for his appearance and condition. Meanwhile, his captors bargained for the $25 m prize the Americans promised for information leading to his capture alive or dead. The negotiations were mediated by Jalal Talabanis Kurdish PUK militia.

These circumstances would explain the ex-rulers docility described by Lt.Gen. Ricardo Sanchez as resignation in the face of his capture by US forces. He must have regarded them as his rescuers and would have greeted them with relief.

From Gen. Sanchezs evasive answers to questions on the $25m bounty, it may be inferred that the Americans and Kurds took advantage of the negotiations with Saddams abductors to move in close and capture him on their own account, for three reasons:

  • His capture had become a matter of national pride for the Americans. No kudos would have been attached to his handover by a local gang of bounty-seekers or criminals. The country would have been swept anew with rumors that the big hero Saddam was again betrayed by the people he trusted, just as in the war.
  • It was vital to catch his kidnappers unawares so as to make sure Saddam was taken alive. They might well have killed him and demanded the prize for his body. But they made sure he had no means of taking his own life and may have kept him sedated.
  • During the weeks he is presumed to have been in captivity, guerrilla activity declined markedly especially in the Sunni Triangle towns of Falluja, Ramadi and Balad - while surging outside this flashpoint region in Mosul in the north and Najef, Nasseriya and Hilla in the south. It was important for the coalition to lay hands on him before the epicenter of the violence turned back towards Baghdad and the center of the Sunni Triangle.

<snip>

http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=743

And here's the cave- thanks to Crisco for posting this:
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imax2268 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-03 05:45 AM
Response to Reply #36
38. I read that...
Edited on Mon Dec-15-03 05:46 AM by imax2268
quite interesting...makes enough sense where I can't say it's just a conspiracy theory...food for thought...

(on edit:spelling)
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-03 05:47 AM
Response to Original message
39. Yep. Waited until the Iraqi Gov. Council tribunals were set up...
Prague, 11 December 2003 (RFE/RL) -- The U.S.-appointed Iraqi Governing Council this week set up a special tribunal to try former members of the Iraqi Ba'athist regime for crimes against humanity.

The creation of the tribunal, which will be staffed and led by Iraqi nationals, resulted from months of work. It will take many more months before the first trials actually start in Baghdad.


http://www.rferl.org/nca/features/2003/12/11122003181030.asp
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Gore1FL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-03 06:15 AM
Response to Original message
40. I don't buy it.
If that were true, they'd have picked a better day to control the news cycle.

Their intelligence is questionable. Their policies suck, but they know the political strings to pull.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-03 06:25 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. Saddam's capture was all over the football broadcasts...
And football announcers are the 21st Century's political pundits. It's why Limbaugh wanted in the club.

Sad, ain't it?


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Gore1FL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-03 08:09 AM
Response to Reply #41
44. Good point
n/t
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