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The Significance of the Death of Raymond Lemme to the 2004 Election

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 07:48 PM
Original message
The Significance of the Death of Raymond Lemme to the 2004 Election
There is very good reason to believe that Raymond Lemme (whom Ill bet was never mentioned by our corporate MSM) had information shortly before his death, in July 2003, in a Valdosta, Georgia motel room, that could have blown open the plans of George W. Bush and his handlers to win the 2004 Presidential election. To evaluate this connection we should start with a brief summary of the unsolved mysteries surrounding Bushs victory in Ohio, which everyone knew well before Election Day would almost certainly be necessary for a Bush Electoral College victory.


Brief summary of unsolved mysteries surrounding Bushs Ohio victory

Here is a brief description of some of the most important unexplained irregularities noted in Ohio on Election Day.

1. The Warren County lockdown
The infamous Warren County lockdown occurred after the polls closed in Warren County, when Warren County election officials locked reporters out of the building while they counted the votes, justifying this action on the basis of a national security alert involving a terrorist threat. The FBI later denied issuing such an alert.

Other than the above mentioned facts, there are many other ominous circumstances surrounding this event, as pointed out by fellow DUer Farmbo in his recent post: 1.) The incident, which apparently involves a federal felony, has never been seriously investigated either by any news organization, by the state of Ohio, or by federal investigators; 2.) The lockdown was planned in advance; 3.) Just prior to this event, Ohio seemed to be safely in Kerrys column; d) According to a recent U.S. General Accounting Office (GAO) report, Ohios statewide tabulation network was highly vulnerable to hacking.

2. Huge inconsistencies in voter registration figures
There were huge inconsistencies between NY Times articles which indicated that the rate of new Democratic voter registration in Ohio was ten times the rate of new Republican voter registration, compared to official Secretary of State figures that showed no advantage in Democratic over Republican voter registration. An explanation for this strange finding is detailed in this report, which notes that 165,000 voters were electronically purged, apparently illegally, in Cuyahoga County alone, and that this purging may have been targeted at Democratic voters.

3. Late addition of votes to Miami County
The late addition of 19,000 votes from Miami County, after 100% of precincts had reported, resulted in a net addition to Bushs vote margin of 6,000 votes.

4. Electronic vote switching
Reports by voters of electronic switching of their votes from one candidate to another, favored Bush over Kerry by a ratio of 12 to 1, and were nine times more frequent in swing states (especially Florida, Ohio, and New Mexico) than in other states.

5. Withholding of voting machines in Franklin County
The withholding of voting machines from Democratic precincts in Franklin County, resulting in voting lines which were several hours long, with the subsequent leaving of those lines without voting by tens of thousands of voters, was calculated to result in a net advantage to Bush of about 17,000 net votes.

6. Failure to do a full hand recount
Numerous Ohio counties did everything they could to avoid doing a full recount, even after a recount was mandated by court order, as described in this review by Georgia10 starting on page 36, so that when it all ended, only one county in the whole state had been fully recounted. In order to accomplish this, numerous violations of Ohios recount rules were perpetrated, including: At least 17 counties where the recount was chosen by Ohio election officials rather than randomly; at least 6 counties where tampering with the tabulating machines by voting machine company technicians was noted, including a case in Hocking County where the technician actually gave the election officials a cheat sheet, with instructions on how to make the counts match (The whistle blower of this felony, Sherole Eaton, was subsequently fired from her job); and, at least 6 counties for which, even when it turned out that the vote totals didnt match, election officials still refused to do the required recount.


The testimony of Clint Curtis

In October 2000 Clint Curtis was a computer programmer and a life-long Republican who worked for the Florida based Yang Enterprises, Inc. (YEI). According to Curtissworn testimony to House Judiciary Committee Democrats in December 2004, while working for YEI he wrote a prototype for a computer program that would switch votes from one candidate to another, at the request of Congressman Tom Feeney in October of 2000. Believing at the time that the purpose of Feeneys request was to better understand how Democrats might plan to commit election fraud, Curtis complied with the request and wrote the program and presented it to his employer, Mrs. Li Woan Yang. According to Curtis sworn affidavit

She immediately responded, You dont understand, in order to get the contract we have to hide the manipulation in the source code. This program is needed to control the vote in south Florida.

(Curtis continues)

I was shocked that they were trying to steal the election and told her that neither I nor anyone else could produce any such program. She stated that she would hand in what I produced to Feeney and left the room with the software.


Please note that when Curtis said that neither he nor anyone else could produce "any such program" he meant that nobody could produce such a program that was undetectable. But since the public has not been allowed access to the "proprietary" software codes used to count our votes, the question of whether or not a computer program to switch votes from one candidate to another was detectable turns out not to matter so much. And that is the reason why Curtis was able to offer the opinion that he believed that the 2004 election was rigged using a program similar to the one that he wrote.

I had the privilege of meeting Mr. Curtis in January 2004, when we were both invited by Justice Through Music to participate in a small group to lobby Senators to object to the Ohio Presidential Election on January 6th. Curtis had gotten the idea to contact Justice Through Music because they were offering a $200,000 reward for anyone who could prove that the 2004 election had been stolen. However, Curtis was not interested in the money, nor did he accept any money in return for his information or testimony.

Skeptics have pointed out to me and others that Yang Enterprises did not receive any contracts to run elections in 2004 and that there is no proof that Curtis programs were used to rig the election. True enough. But I ask them to consider three things: Firstly, of the unsolved mysteries of Bushs Ohio victory that I listed above, item numbers 2 and 4 appear to have involved electronic vote rigging, and item numbers 1, 3 and 6 seem very suspicious in that regard. Furthermore, in Curtis sworn testimony he said that he was told by his employer that his program was specifically needed to control the vote in South Florida. In fact, it was from south Florida where 48% of all voter complaints in the country of electronic vote switching that favored Bush were reported to the national Electronic Incident Reporting System (EIRS). And secondly and thirdly, we need to consider the circumstances and events surrounding Tom Feeney and Raymond Lemme.


Tom Feeney

At the time that Feeney asked Curtis to write the vote switching program Feeney was simultaneously a Florida legislator (soon to become Speaker of the Florida House of Representatives) and a registered lobbyist for YEI.

For those of you followed the Florida 2000 election with great interest, you might remember that Feeney played a VERY prominent role in Bushs victory in that election. For it was Feeney, not the U.S. Supreme Court or Bushs lawyers, who first came up with the idea (or threat) of taking the 2004 Florida Presidential election out of the hands of the voters. It was Feeney who first put forth the argument that Article II of our Constitution gives the right to state legislatures to determine the winner of their states electors. And it was Feeney, as Speaker of Floridas House of Representatives, who threatened to use that power to nullify a Gore victory if a recount of the votes resulted in Gore being declared the winner. And it was precisely this argument of Feeneys that the U.S. Supreme Court was to use a few days later to hand Bush the Presidency.

What I am trying to imply here is that it is not plausible to believe that Feeneys interest in vote switching programs was limited to his association with YEI. And while it is true that we do not know that the specific prototype that Curtis wrote was actually used to rig the 2004 election, Feeneys asking Curtis to write such a program is evidence of high level Republican interest in stealing the election.


The death of Raymond Lemme

Raymond Lemme was the official from the Florida Inspector Generals Office who was charged with investigating Curtis allegations. In his affidavit, Curtis describes a June 2003 meeting with Lemme, where Lemme told Curtis that he (Lemme) had tracked the corruption all the way to the top, and that the story would break shortly.

But we will probably never know what explosive information Lemme had obtained, for he was found dead in a Valdosta, Georgia, Knights Inn motel room two weeks later, July 1, 2003. His arm was slashed twice with a razor blade, near the left elbow. The Brad Blog has thoroughly investigated this case and put forth several reasons to believe that Lemmes death was not suicide, as has been ruled by the Valdosta police:

In the first place, nobody knows why Lemme was in Georgia, about 80 miles north of Tallahassee, where he lived and worked. No autopsy was performed, whereas had the death occurred in Florida, an autopsy would have been required.

Secondly, motel receipts are not consistent with the rest of the story. There is an unsigned check-in receipt dated June 29, 2003, and a signed check-out receipt dated June 30, 2003, 6:54 a.m. Yet Lemme was found dead in the hotel on July 1, the day AFTER he apparently checked out. The police claim that the check-out date on the receipt is wrong, and ascribe the incorrect date to machine error, but refused to provide additional detail on that.

Thirdly, there are mysteries surrounding and inconsistencies between the photographs of the scene of the crime and the police report. The initial police report stated: "a defect in the camera flash memory cards resulted in no usable photographs. Photographs will not be submitted with this report." Yet good quality photographs of the crime scene, some showing Lemme in the bath tub where he is said to have killed himself, and which were previously said not to have existed, later showed up. The legitimacy of the photographs was confirmed by the Valdosta police.

An official report by Detective Shannon Floyd states that there was no sign of foul play, and that there was no blood on the towel on which a black belt (apparently used as a tourniquet) was found. Yet, the pictures clearly show blood on the towel and severe bruising on the right side of Lemmes neck.

When Brad Blog attempted to talk with Detective Floyd about her inconsistent findings, he was told that she no longer works for the Department, and the police refused to tell him how he could reach her.

Fourthly, after re-opening the case (late 04 or early 05), the case was quickly closed after the Valdosta police talked with the Florida Department of Transportation. The Valdosta police refused to comment on why the Florida DOT should have a say in when they close a death investigation in Georgia.

And lastly, Lemmes work colleagues and family all agree that there were no previous indications that Lemme wanted to die.


Summary

In summary, there are several unsolved (not to mention uninvestigated) mysteries surrounding Bushs Ohio victory, many which suggest the possibility or likelihood of electronic vote rigging (and the Edison-Mitofsky exit poll showed Kerry with a 4.2% victory over Bush in Ohio.) Clint Curtis has provided sworn testimony to Congress that he wrote a computer program, at the request of a Republican operative (Tom Feeney), which was capable of rigging the 2004 election, and which he believes was in fact used to rig the 2004 election. The man charged with investigating Curtis allegations appeared to be on the verge of verifying his allegations and tracking them all the way to the top. And then he died under highly suspicious circumstances, and the investigation into his alleged suicide was quickly squelched.





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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
1. k & r -- on general principle
eom
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 08:06 PM
Response to Original message
2. Think it was the same guy who killed Kelly in England?
I mean, they can't have that many murderers ready to hand.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #2
12. I doubt that it was the same person
I don't mean to sound cynical, but I think that the people behind this have enough money and power that they can find a number of people to do this kind of thing.
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 08:06 PM
Response to Original message
3. My problem with this is apparently there is no backup documentation.
Lemme was not stupid, no way. Would he have not secured a backup of whatever he had found? Did he even have a safe deposit box where such documentation could be saved?

I find the circumstances of his death to be puzzling and disturbing. How many times had he been to Georgia? Also, I thought all states required an autopsy when the death is "unattended" or clearly not from natural causes. Why would Georgia be the exception?

People talk about Clinton's body count, but all of them were coincidental and solved with meticulous investigation. No such thing has ever been done for the BFEE body count. That's why the stench lingers.

JMHO, something about Curtis disturbs me, like there's a hidden agenda somewhere that I can't quite figure out. Maybe others feel the same way after meeting him, and that's why he never got serious traction.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Of course Lemme wasn't stupid
Neither are most people who are assassinated

Lemme was only one person though. And I believe that he had very powetrful forces aligned against him.

Are you saying that you don't believe that Georgia doesn't require an autopsy when a death is unattended? They how do you explain that there was no autopsy on Lemme?

You talk about meticulous investigation solving the issues brought up by the "Clinton body count". But the investigation into Lemme's death was squelched after the Florida Department of transportation talked with the Valdosta police. Why would a death investigation in Georgia be squelched by part of the Florida government?

I'm not sure what it is about Curtis that disturbs you. I have been told by the person who offered the $200,000 reward from "Justice through Music" that Curtis was not interested in that money. Nor has he made an effort to publicize himself, except that he offered to testify before Congress (at risk to his life, I might add).

As I note in my OP, I met him and talked with him. I did not notice a hidden agenda.

I think that the reason that this has not received serious traction is the same reason that no election fraud has received serious traction. And the same reason that the absence of good evidence for WMD in Iraq did not get serious traction before the war: Our corporate news media.
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. My point being, was he killed in Georgia because of the "no autopsy" rule?
Do other states close to Florida follow the general rule of autopsy in unattended death? (Particularly those where Lemme was known to travel.) If the other states do require an autopsy, and if Georgia is the only one in which is not an absolute requirement, that makes it all the more suspicious that Georgia is where his death occurred.

And I'm sorry if you don't like my perception of Curtis. If you met him and have a different opinion, that's fine, but I'm still entitled to express that he is not the most convincing person in the world and I do have a "hinky" feeling about him.

FWIW, I believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that the election was stolen, by various ways and means in different states. I still have a problem with Lemme not creating backup documents (or several sets of them) in such an explosive situation. He was a professional. I can only wonder if he entrusted someone with said documents and that person betrayed him .....
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #9
16. I don't know what the autopsy rules in other states are
I think though that, regardless of the autopsy rules in other states, Georgia would have been an obvious choice if someone wanted to murder Lemme and make it look like a suicide, since Georgia was much closer than any other state to where Lemme lived and worked. Still, you have a good point about considering the autopsy rules for other states.

I certainly didn't mean to give you the impression that I resented your expressing your opinion about Curtis. I was just offering my opinion on the matter.

As far as Lemme's not creating backup documents, I just can't agree that that is strange (But again, I don't have any problem with your mentioning this). It seems to me that unless a person feels that their life is in grave danger they probably won't think of doing that. I don't believe that Lemme was aware of just how dangerous of a situation he was in. Maybe he was a little naive. Or maybe most people just find it very difficult to believe that our own government would have people assassinated for reasons like this.

And in any event, maybe Lemme did leave backup documents with someone. I don't think it's necessary to postulate that he was betrayed exactly. Whomever he left the documents with must have thought that if they spoke up they might be next on the list. I think it would have taken a heroic action to come forward with those documents.

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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. You make some good follow-up points.
Edited on Sun Dec-11-05 01:12 AM by Straight Shooter
As far as backups, though, I just find that ... odd. I do think, however, that if someone had the documents in case of emergency and then learned of Lemme's suspicious death, it would make them hesitate to come forward. More than one person who could do damage to the BFEE has been silenced by being aware of the thugs and what they are capable of.

If this wasn't suicide, then whoever killed Lemme either had a way into the hotel room, or Lemme trusted him/them enough to allow entrance. What a strange way to kill yourself, though, I'd never heard of this technique before, and I wonder how Lemme knew about it. A tourniquet? I have Geo Stone's research book on suicide, and never saw mention of this method.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #18
24. I certainly agree with you that this doesn't sound much like a suicide
Of course, if you're reading a book on suicide I'm sure you know more about it than me.

I think that the other possibility (which seems likely to me) is that Lemme was kidnapped by his killers prior to his death and taken to the motel room in Valdosta Georgia.
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. The question then becomes who killed him
If you can find the killer(s), then you're more likely to find a trail leading to the leaders who ordered the hit. I doubt the assassins will be found though. People at that high a level of power would probably hire professionals who know what they're doing, not amateurs.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. I agree that it seems unlikely that we'll solve this case --- but...
The Nixon Administration hired only professionals too. And they got caught.

And the Bush Administration seems like it may be unravelling right now.

Anyhow, I'd be satisfied if we get proof on how the election was stolen, even if we don't find the killers. Or, I'd even be happy simply to fix our election system, even if we can't prove for certain what happened in 2004.
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #32
48. I wouldn't say they were professionals
They got caught, which is a far cry from the hitmen who got Kennedy several years earlier. THOSE were professionals.
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Tigress DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. Since states can determine their own compliance outside of Fed
Federal guidelines, they can probably state that a trained forensic investigator can make a judgement call in "obvious" suicides to spare the family more grief. Some religions prohibit the descecration of the body and it may have happened that some states use those kinds of loopholes to dump cases they don't want to look at closely.

So, you can be right about the general guidelines, but obviously in Georgia they found some way around it.

I do think the involvement of FL DOT in the decision making process is highly weird also.

And about Curtis... Maybe he was told for 100% sure that they were going to use his software, but if he says that then he hangs himself as well. Maybe he feels guilt over helping bozo get elected, but not so much to the extreme that he'd like to shower with a boyfriend named Bubba for 10-15.

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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Thank you.
It was my understanding that an autopsy must be performed in the case of any unattended suspicious death. I am the kind of person who looks deeper when the family says, "No way," and a person dies in a hotel room, especially this type of death, quite bloody.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #8
15. Here is the way that I look at Curtis' role in this
If he knew when he wrote the program that it was going to be used to steal an election, and he went ahead and did it anyhow, then why would he turn around and blow the whistle on the whole thing, and for no apparent gain for himself? I think it's also fair to say that he put his life in danger when he made the decision to come forward and testify. I didn't mention this in my OP, but they killed his dog -- I suppose as a warning.

So given all that, the only thing that makes sense to me is that he came forward because he felt that it was the right thing to do, and he was never complicit in the plan in the fist place.

I could be wrong of course. Maybe he was complicit from the beginning, and then he had second thoughts. But I don't think that very many people make that sharp of a turnaround: from election fraud felon to hero in the space of a couple of years.
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Tigress DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 04:05 AM
Response to Reply #15
21. I was just postulating a theory. I don't know.
I was just thinking of how many people who have voted for 30 straight Republican have left the party. It's been a hell of a couple of years.

I'm sure that your feel for him "doing the right thing" would still be true in what I said. I didn't state that he knew "before hand" as in was told the real reason he was asked to write it, but that he may have had more information after the fact that could have implicated him. Again, I don't know. Just thinking outloud.

I'm thinking mostly of how people edit their own parts in things when the only point in mentioning something would be to shoot themselves in the foot. When you meet someone if you get a feeling about them, it's often a small thing that catches your mental eye and makes it seem off versus the big "felon" to "hero" type of discrepency.

Though I did mention serving time, keep in mind that we live in a day and age where the big guys get through and the little guys take the rap. I am willing to believe in this guy unless I know he's lying. I hope he is able to nail the buggers to the wall.

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #21
26. Ok, I misunderstood what you were saying
I hadn't thought about the possibility that Curtis was at risk for doing jail time. I saw nothing that he had done that could possibly warrant that. But I hadn't thought of your idea that he might be scape goated and made to take the fall for this.

I don't know. I think that Curtis was in much greater danger of being the victim of violence than he is of being indicted for anything. Whether or not he still faces such a danger is another question. I think that enough people know about him that a "suicide" would be looked on with an awful lot of suspicion. But on the other hand, if this thing breaks open at some point, and if Curtis is scheduled to testify again, then I would fear for his life.
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bonito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 08:33 PM
Response to Original message
5. This needs investigation
Into current view points of both Clint Curtis and Raymond Lemme's family, to bring this back into focus for futher investigation.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 02:33 AM
Response to Reply #5
20. Good points -- actually, I asked Curtis his viewpoint on this matter
I don't remember his exact words, but when I asked him if he thought Lemme was murdered he let me know that there was little doubt in his mind that yes, Lemme was murdered.
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Melissa G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 08:47 PM
Response to Original message
6. K-n-R ! Thanks T f C! n/t
Edited on Sat Dec-10-05 08:48 PM by Melissa G
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blue4barb Donating Member (367 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 09:04 PM
Response to Original message
7. Ray Lemme's death is a potentially explosive story. Not surprising
that our "liberal" msm has not touched it.
k/r
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #7
28. No, that's not surprising at all
Just imagine how big of a deal our "liberal" MSM would have made of this had Clinton been President and Lemme was investigation election fraud involving his Administration?

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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 09:40 PM
Response to Original message
11. This needs more publicization and investigation - very sinister but
quite plausible. Thanks, TFC! K & R.

His death would also have demonstated to other potential whistle-blowers what the consequences would be for telling the truth.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 06:05 AM
Response to Reply #11
22. It sure does need more publicization and investigation
I wish I knew how to make that happen.
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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 11:15 PM
Response to Original message
13. this says it all for me:
"Raymond Lemme was the official from the Florida Inspector Generals Office who was charged with investigating Curtis allegations. In his affidavit, Curtis describes a June 2003 meeting with Lemme, where Lemme told Curtis that he (Lemme) had tracked the corruption all the way to the top, and that the story would break shortly.

But we will probably never know what explosive information Lemme had obtained, for he was found dead in a Valdosta, Georgia, Knights Inn motel room two weeks later, July 1, 2003. "
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yowzayowzayowza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. No Doubt.
Thx TfC.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #13
25. Yes, I also find that to be quite suspicious, to say the least
When you add to that Curtis' sworn testimony, that says that his employer (Mrs. Yang) told him that Feeney told her that Curtis' program was needed to control the south Florida vote, consider Feeney's notorious history in the 2000 election, and the fact that a preponderance of vote switching complaints to EIRS came from south Florida, we have quite a case here.

Can you imagine what the MSM would have done with this if Clinton had been President and the whistle blower had said that the vote switching program he was told to develop was to be for the advantage of Clinton?!
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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #25
37. You know they'd be all over that!!
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texpatriot2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 12:42 AM
Response to Original message
17. Lemme was "suicided" no doubt and it was done in GA or they
found him in GA for a reason.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #17
39. I think the reason was that autopsies an autopsy is not required in GA
whereas had he been found in Florida an autopsy would have been required.
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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 01:39 AM
Response to Original message
19. What about Ms. Yang?
Edited on Sun Dec-11-05 01:39 AM by Bill Bored
The only one who Curtis says actually admitted that this program was to be used for an illegal purpose was Ms. Yang (when she said it was needed "to control the vote in South FL"). So why isn't SHE being questioned or investigated by someone? Now don't ask me who, because if we assume that the whole state of FL is hopelessly corrupt, that leaves only the Feds. I'm not sure who would be interested there, but why didn't Conyers and the Dem Judiciary Committee members, in front of whom Curtis testified, try to follow up on this?

Suppose Lemme's death is being used as yet another distraction. Maybe his death, tragic as it is, had nothing to do with election fraud. Maybe Curtis doesn't either. Maybe it's all to throw us off the track. These guys are masters of misdirection.

Maybe the voting machines can be rigged without any new code. Maybe voter suppression in Ohio was the key to the White House and this is just a smoke screen.

IA, NV and NM would have tied the electoral college with another 20,000 votes for Kerry. Think we could have found 'em if we hadn't been worrying so much about exit polls and Clint Curtis?

Don't get me wrong, it's a compelling story, but why not ask Ms. Yang to come downtown and answer a few questions, or has she?
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. Interesting thoughts Bill
I doubt that Lemme's death was used merely as a distraction. I don't think that even the people who ordered his murder would do something like that merely for a discraction. I think that Lemme's death should have been seen as somewhat of a risk to those who did it. I mean, given the circumstances, if it received any coverage at all, it must have sounded very suspicious to anyone who heard the story. Of course they probably felt that they could count on the MSM to be stone silent about it -- and they were correct. But still, I think it must have been a risk, so I think that they wanted Lemme out of the way very badly.

Here's the way I see it. What this whole episoded says to me is that the Republicans, or someone connected with the Bush campaign intended to use electronic methods to help them win the 04 election. Whether they actually used Curtis' program, who knows. I believe that they did use his program in south Florida, because 48% of the Kerry to Bush type vote switching EIRS reports came from the 3 south Florida Dem. stronghold counties of Palm Beach Broward, and Miami Dade.

But I don't know that his specific programs were used in Ohio. As you know, I believe that Ohio was won for Bush mainly with voter registration fraud. I'm not enough of a computer expert to know how Curtis' testimony specifically relates to that. All I can say about that for sure is that the Curtis/Lemme episode demonstrates the intent to steal the election through electronic means, and that the voter registration fraud in Ohio (for which we now have very good evidence IMO) was done electronically.

As for NV, IA, and NM, even if Kerry had won all 3, the election would have gone to our House, where Bush certainly would have won. That's why I'm more interested in Ohio, though certainly I do see the value of looking at those other states as well, because it's good to have solid evidence that fraud was committed.

As for Mrs. Yang, it doesn't surprise me that she wasn't investigated much (as far as I know, she wasn't) following Lemme's death. I imagine that neither the state of Florida or the Bush Administration had much interest in getting to the bottom of this. As far as why she wasn't mentioned in the Conyers Report, his Report focused solely on Ohio.
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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #23
44. You are not hearing what I'm saying TFC
Edited on Sun Dec-11-05 10:49 PM by Bill Bored
I'm not saying he was killed solely as a distraction. I'm saying that his death is being used as one.

Lemme was found dead, but his death may have had nothing to do with election fraud. We don't know the real reason for his death, but just as with 9/11, the story can be used to misdirect. In this case, to distract us from the real election fraud, however and wherever it was carried out. The Bushies are masters at misdirection. That is what they do.

Do you really think Curtis' code or anything like it would have been so easily detectable by voters as "vote switching?" I don't think so. Those votes could have been switched without it being apparent to the voters at all if we're talking about that level of programming. Didn't Curtis himself say so?

And if Conyers could show FL was stolen in this way, don't you think it would have been just as good as Ohio? If you haven't seen the video of Curtis' testimony before the House Judiciary Dems, check it out. It's either on CSpan as part of the hearing in DC, or the amateur web video from the Ohio hearing. It might shed some more light on this for you if you haven't seen it. I think it was the Ohio one. And as you say, Conyers was not distracted from Ohio for a moment by it.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #44
46. Ok Bill, I guess I misunderstood you on that
I guess I don't understand your point though.

And I just can't picture the concept of using Lemme's death as a distraction, even though he was killed at least partially for other reasons. Because it seems to me that he was killed because he had information, and he was going to use that information to expose something about the election that the Bush Administration very much did not want exposed. If I'm right about that, then I don't see how that can be consistent with the idea that they used his death as a distraction.

Anyhow, I never said or implied that Curtis' specific program was used to a large extent in the 04 election (though it seems to me that something similar was used in S. Florida). I think that the most important point about his testimony is that it demonstrates the intent of the other side to commit widespread fraud through electronic means.

I'm not quite sure what you're asking me about Curtis' program, but he did say that he could NOT write a program that would switch votes and be undetectable.

I can't explain the electronic vote switching in S. Florida. Yes, it does seem odd that the voters would actually detect the switch. But 42 incidents favored Bush in S. Florida, and only one favored Kerry. It's hard for me to believe that that was an accident or that any reason other than fraud accounts for that.
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converted_democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 11:56 AM
Response to Original message
27. Thought this might be significant---Pics of the crime scene....
http://www.insider-magazine.com/unrestricted_warfare.htm


Warning the pics are very graphic! Scroll down the page to see them.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #27
34. Thank you for the pictures
These were the ones that were found to be inconsistent with the official report written by Detective Shannon Floyd - for example, the blood on the towel and the signs of bruising on Lemme.

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tkmorris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
30. After reading the story
and refreshing my memory on the details, it seemed to me the obvious place to start would be with Detective Shannon Floyd. I assumed since the author couldn't find her, that she had dropped from public view but that doesn't seem to be the case. This site has her teaching a group of young children a Crime Scene Investigation class at Valdosta State University this coming February.

Details like that do not inspire confidence in me that the rest of the details are portrayed accurately. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't, but little things like that discourage me from investigating further.

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. The Brad Blog report on Raymond Lemme
You seem to be implying that either the Brad Blog report on Raymond Lemme or my portrayal of it was not accurate. I don't understand the basis for that implication, if that is what you are trying to imply.

The report stated that Brad Blog tried to contact Detective Shannon Floyd in order to interview her about the disrepancies between her official report of the investigation and the photographs of the crime scene that had surfaced. Brad Blog asked the Valdosta police how he could contact her, and they refused to provide assistance in his attempt to contact her.

I don't see how the fact that her whereabouts are now known casts a cloud over the accuracy of the Brad Blog report or how I portrayed that report. We don't know what efforts, if any, Brad Blog has made to contact Detective Floyd since the report appeared, nor do we know whether or not Brad Blog has contacted Detective Floyd and she has refused to speak with him about the case. In any event, I don't see how this suggests that the Brad Blog report was inaccurate or that I portrayed in inaccurately.

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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
31. 1 teeny correction: Warren lockdown occured before the polls in Warren
closed. Newspaper personnel head to the various BoE's around 6-7ish because the polls "close" at 7:30. Warren in what was an anomaly for a white flight GOP stronghold actually had lines due to not enough voting equipment and held their polls open till very late enabling the Warren tally to be completed last in the state and coming in after Cuyahoga the largest most populous county. I belive it was important for Warren to be able to tally late due to long lines. They had to see what Cuyahoga was going to do first.

What is interesting about Warren's voting machine shortage is that they knew about the explosive population growth yet did not purchase enough machines unlike a very similar demographic contiguous county of Butler where there were no lines to vote.

So Warren prevented the press from observing while the polls were still open
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. Thank you for the correction rosebod
So what do you think happened there?

Do you think that they were just waiting to see whether or not their plan for voter suppression (or vote deletion) in Cuyahoga County worked, and if it failed, then they were ready to mess with the central tabulators from other parts of the state (as postulated by Farmbo)? But since their plan for Cuyahoga worked pretty well, they didn't have to do anything?
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #35
49. No I actually think Warren converted Kerry votes to Bush votes AND
added to Bush's margin with phantom votes. They had to wait until after Cuyahoga reported to know if they had converted enough of Kerry's votes to the Bush column. Warren, Butler, Clermont and Hamilton all contiguous counties had the largest C. Ellen Connaly anomaly. Meaning Connaly whose name I couldn't even remember when I got ready to vote, she was that unknown and I wanted to vote a straight dem ticket outpolled Kerry in a down ticket race.

Did these counties act in concert or did Warren convert Kerry votes to the Bush column in other counties without their knowledge?

Call Erica Solvig at her new newspaper gig to see what else she knew about Warren but her employer may not have let her write about.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #49
53. OK, I'll e-mail her
I can't imagine that she'll want to give me any information, but it's worth a try I guess.
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-05 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #53
54. I thik you should call he or have another DUer with the charm of an
Andy Stephenson. This is a gossipy type situation and flattery is key. People speak faster than they type and their is no delete button.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
36. K & R. This should be on the front page of every paper in the country!
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #36
41. Thank you -- unfortunately I've never heard a peep out of a
mainstream news station or newspaper about Raymond Lemme or Clint Curtis, and they barely even covered Conyers' hearings.
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 06:35 PM
Response to Original message
38. excellent post will read in depth after the kids are in bed! Thanks.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. Thank you -- yes, it would be a good idea not to let your kids read this
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 06:37 PM
Response to Original message
40. Superb analysis, as always, Tfc. Bookmarked and recommended.
Peace.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 10:18 PM
Response to Original message
43. The facts so far merit the attention of a prosecutor, a grand jury inves-
tigation and a full Congressional investigation. And they merit expenditures of, say, maybe a sixth of what was spent on Bill and Monica (wasn't it $60 million?). But, alas, we seem to have only one prosecutor in the country who gives a goddamn about our democracy, and three or four people in Congress who do.

And that, of course, is the result of a fraudulent election system that was installed starting in 2002, was up and running nationwide in 2004, and is getting worse every day.

I can't help but notice the haunting resemblance of Lemme's death to that of the Brits chief weapons expert David Kelly, two weeks after Lemme's death. Who knows if they are related as to perps/hit squads, but they are certainly related thematically and as to methods. Kelly's death was also a highly suspicious suicide. He slashed one wrist, took pain killers (not enough to kill him) and supposedly bled to death all night outdoors in the rain, under a tree not far from his home. His inquest was also truncated--and supplanted by the really bad whitewash conducted by Lord Hutton (of N. Ireland infamy), which ignored and didn't call witnesses who said the body was moved, paramedics who said there wasn't enough blood, and forensic experts who said he couldn't have died that way.

Kelly was a topnotch scientist. He couldn't think of a better way to kill himself? One slit wrist out in the rain?

It's just nonsense. Then there is the motive. Kelly had started whistleblowing anonymously to the BBC about the "sexed up" prewar Iraq WMD intel, in late May 2003. He was rather mysteriously outed to his bosses (it seemed to take him by surprise) in mid to late June. They interrogated him at a safe house, threatened him with prosecution under the Official Secrets Act (digging for what he might know and say further to the public), forced him to partially recant before a parliamentary committee, outed his name to the press, and sent him home without protection of any kind, and apparently without surveillance. He was found dead July 18, 2003, four days after Valerie Plame was outed (by Novak). His office and computers were searched. And, four days after that, on July 22, the entire Plame/CIA counter-proliferation project, Brewster-Jennings, 20 years in the making, with covert agents and contacts all over the world, was outed (also by Novak). There is no evidence whatsoever that Kelly was suicidal; in fact, his emails are forward-looking; he thought it was all going to blow over, he was looking forward to his daughter's wedding in the fall, and to his return to Iraq!

The theme here is covering up Bush Cartel crimes, by whatever means. They put Plame's life in danger, and quite possibly got some in her network killed, with at least part of the reason being to shut her, her husband and the CIA up about their nefarious Iraq lies. Kelly, too, was exposing their lies. And whatever else Kelly may have known went to his grave. The same with Lemme. Both Kelly and Lemme were likely kidnapped. And who knows what extortion they may have used to gain access to secret files or backups, in both cases? Also, there is the haunting fact that both cases involved highly suspicious suicides with the investigations artificially cut off before significant questions were answered.

And the same coverup and obstruction tactics are being used in the Plame investigation. Prosecutor Fitzgerald specifically mentioned this in his Libby indictment press conference: Libby had acted to prevent him from completing the investigation, and from finding out the motive for the Plame/BJ outing.

I have some thoughts about David Kelly's death, what he may have known, how it might relate to the Plame case, and the curious role of Judith Miller in that situation. Basically, that Kelly had found out about a Bushite plot to plant WMDs in Iraq, that Plame and her network may have had something to do with foiling that rotten scheme, that Miller had been knowingly or unknowingly positioned in Iraq (with a special "embed" contract signed by Donald Rumsfeld to accompany the US troops) to be the one to "find" those planted WMDs, and that Miller--an old correspondent/colleague of Kelly's--might have been the one who tipped off his bosses that he was the whistleblower. It was to Miller that Kelly wrote his last email, on the day he died, expressing his concern about the "many dark actors playing games." What an irony, if it was Miller who started the chain of events that led to his death!

So here we have three cases of whistleblowers--at least two dead, and several others disabled and living in danger--with vital connections to two of the Bushites' worst crimes: The Iraq War, and the stolen election.

It wouldn't surprise me if there were other buried bodies (literally). (I can think of a few possibilities--for instance, these dark prisoners that Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Rice are whisking away to secret torture chambers in middle Europe and other countries. Who are these prisoners? Why can't we know their names?)

I am afraid we are well past most benchmarks for the descent into tyranny and barbarism. No wonder Curtis is scared, and maybe a little shaky as a personality (if he is). Wouldn't you be, in his situation?









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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #43
45. I believe Curtis is a hero for what he did. With regard to the theme
that you speak of, I believe that the theme is much bigger than Lemme and Kelly. Here is something that I posted recently where I talk of several "suicides" that I believe fit the pattern -- these included Lemme and Kelly, and I referenced your post that discusses the theories for why the Bush Administration may have wanted Kelly out of the way: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=5495235

In addition to what I talked about in my OP, some other posters brought up examples that maybe I should have included, including the suicide of a woman who was in the process of suing Bush for rape, and who said before she died that Bush had told her to commit suicide, as that was the only way she could avoid him making her life a living hell. Her name was Margie Schoedinger. The MSM didn't cover this at all, I guess because they recognized that it wasn't as important as the Monica Lewinski scandal :sarcasm:

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madeline_con Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 01:20 AM
Response to Original message
47. "... and the police refused to tell him how he could reach her."
Edited on Mon Dec-12-05 01:22 AM by madeline_con
Shannon Floyd is teaching a class in Crime Scene Investigaton to kids grade 4-8, at Valdosta State University, according to my googling:

I found her here: Detective Shannon Floyd
http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:qFNwv6Fd20sJ:www.valdostacity.com/PublicInfo/newsletters/July-Aug04.pdf+Valdosta+%2B+Detective+Floyd&hl=en


What she'll be doing Spring 2006:
Crime Scene Investigations
http://www.valdosta.edu/conted/Programs/kids/scopeclasses.htm

(Updated: 11/17/05)
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. Thank you -- I will pass this information along to Brad Blog
They may already know about it and be following up on it, or they may have contacted her and unable to get any useful information from her.
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savemefromdumbya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
50. who 'suicided' him?
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. I don't know
I think though, that one of the first questions to ask when looking at a situation like this is "Who would benefit from such a crime?"

Lemme had told Curtis two weeks before he died that he had "tracked the corruption all the way to the top". So I think that we should look at that statement as a clue.
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