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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 03:49 AM
Original message
OK, so we're under attack.
Edited on Sun Oct-31-04 03:55 AM by BevHarris
I've just spent the last 8 hours with computer security specialists.

The story we posted on Black Box Voting (.ORG) and the documents and videos that accompany it is apparently something you aren't wanted to see.

We've had some top people look at our Web site attack. If someone wants to take you out badly enough, there is very little you can do. In the past days we have had attacks on the database. Attacks on the file permissions. Attacks on the passwords. Attacks by DNS poisoning. Asia and Korea are blocked from even trying to access our web site. As soon as we fix one thing, something different is attacked.

This is disturbing enough, but here's something worse: We are seeing people in the Democratic Party almost run the other way rather than face the issue of a real problem with remote access into the central tabulator. I've had half a dozen conversations with lawyers for the election monitoring groups, and with observers, who do not have a clue what they are doing.

"But the party is sending observers," said one. when I described the attacks that may be launched. Another refused to even get on the phone with me. They have not a clue what they are doing when it comes to monitoring the counting of the vote.

Black Box Voting has developed a very precise list of what to do and watch for when monitoring the tabulator, but the Dems think they don't need it. Well, I met some of the Dem lawyers while observing the central tabulator during the Washington State primary, and all I can say is: clueless. Pitiful. Asking to be wounded.

This is alarming. There is more, and it is more disturbing still, but I haven't decided how we're going to approach it. It has to do with who knew the remote access hacks, and when.

Computer folks, listen carefully:

The Diebold central servers are installed on unpatched, unsecured Windows computers and use RAS to connect to the voting machines. Since RAS is not adequately protected, anyone in the world, even terrorists, who can figure out the server's phone number can change vote totals without these changes being detected by observers.

King County gave us the server's phone number in a public records request, because the elections director didn't know he shouldn't give it out to the poll workers, and the troubleshooters wrote the number on slips of paper, and the file clerk had no idea a phone number was sensitive information. Getting hold of these phone numbers, for someone with a little determination, is apparently not hard at all.

The only way to protect tomorrow's election is to disconnect the servers from the modems NOW.

It gets worse. You have to leave the security holes open because you are using a product called the DigiBoard, which can't be configured any other way. GEMS is wide open to VBA-script attacks because it is based on unsecured MS Access, and is run on Windows XP and 2000 machines, which can't be configured to disable VBA script attacks on the unprotected MS Access database.

A shot across the bow: It is very, very disturbing to see who knew this information, and when, and therefore this must be said: Anyone who thinks they are helping by exploiting these vulnerabilities to hack should be held accountable for the resulting chaos, and they are so far off base it's frightening.

If you think there isn't already a Patriot Act-like repressive bit of "corrective" election legislation written, just waiting for a receptive America -- an America in which people yearn for the return of order and a feeling that everything is under control -- well, think again.

This country has all the legal tools it needs, already, to address whatever comes our way on Tuesday, whether it be civil unrest, a litigation trap, or a misguided attempt to demonstrate hacking for all to see. We don't need another Patriot Act style order-restoring act of congress shoved down our throat. So let's not tempt fate, OK?

We recently found an erased and tampered audit log -- which appeared shortly after a GEMS crash, and was indicative of hacking in to tamper with votes, since the crash immediately followed a series of modems timing out. We reported it and then lost our Web site.

I need your help.

I need to be put in touch with someone upstream who will help us get the modems disconnected. First, so votes are not stolen that way. But second, to save us from the chaos that certain groups, potentially voting activists or people on the left side, may cause if they try the misguided action of demonstrating hacks.

This vulnerability can be prevented. All it requires is turning off the modems. In King County, when they stopped using the modems, it only took an hour longer to count the votes. This is the sixth biggest jurisdiction in the U.S.

If someone tries to make a hero of themselves through hacking, demand answers about when they knew about this, and why they didn't take it public in a timely manner. And I personally will assist in putting them in prison.

Bev Harris
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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 04:01 AM
Response to Original message
1. Bev, perhaps this is exactly what they want to happen
Edited on Sun Oct-31-04 04:39 AM by Bozos for Bush
Or perhaps what you warn is supposed to happen come Tuesday.

All of the major voting machines have documented links to Bush's buddies. I have spoken out often about how these machines are primed to cheat Democrats on Tuesday.

Two nights ago I had my first personal experience with a voting machine. I selected english, then entered my secret 4-digit code which wasn't all that secret since the guy looked at it before giving it to me, and then everything on the screen changed to spanish. Now, I know I didn't select spanish - english was the default position so all I did was hit the enter button, yet suddenly it was all in spanish, so I complained, they revoked my secret code number and issued me another one. Things worked OK after that...at least on the surface.

Anyway, no one in power would want to disconnect the modems IMO - chaos on election day is exactly what Bush needs in order to win.

John
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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 04:05 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. And so you think it is OK for the Dems to hack in???
Edited on Sun Oct-31-04 04:07 AM by BevHarris
There are better ways to deal with this. Perhaps I misunderstood your post.

And by the way, King County Washington is controlled by Democrats, as is Georgia, both locations where the machines are aggressively defended by Dems and criticized by Republicans.

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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 04:19 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. I don't think it's right for anyone to break in, however you cannot deny..
That all major voting machine companies have fully documented links to right wing republicans.

http://healthandenergy.com/election_fraud.htm

Who's behind these private companies? It's hard to tell: the corporate lines - even the bloodlines - of these "competitors" are so intricately mixed. For example, at Diebold - whose corporate chief, Wally O'Dell, a top Bush fundraiser, has publicly committed himself to "delivering" his home state's votes to Bush next year - the election division is run by Bob Urosevich. Bob's brother, Todd, is a top executive at "rival" ES&S. The brothers were originally staked in the vote-count business by Howard Ahmanson, a member of the Council for National Policy, a right-wing "steering group" stacked with Bushist faithful.

Ahmanson is also one of the bagmen behind the extremist "Christian Reconstructionist" movement, which openly advocates a theocratic takeover of American democracy, placing the entire society under the "dominion" of "Christ the King." This "dominion" includes the death penalty for homosexuals, exclusion of citizenship for non-Christians, stoning of sinners and - we kid you not - slavery, "one of the most beneficent of Biblical laws."

Ahmanson also has major holdings in ES&S, whose former CEO is Republican Senator Chuck Hagel of Nebraska. When Hagel ran for office, his own company counted the votes; needless to say, his initial victory was reported as "an amazing upset." Hagel still has a million-dollar stake in the parent company of ES&S. In Florida, Jeb Bush's first choice for a running mate in his 1998 gubernatorial race was ES&S lobbyist Sandra Mortham, who made a mint installing the machines that counted Jeb's votes.

Sequoia also has a colorful history, most recently in Louisiana, where it was the center of a massive corruption case that sent top state officials to jail for bribery, most of it funneled through Mob-connected front firms. Sequoia executives were also indicted, but escaped trial after giving immunized testimony against state officials. The UK-owned company's corporate parent is private equity firm Madison Dearborn - a partner of the Carlyle Group, where George Bush I makes millions trolling the world for war pork, privatizations and sweetheart deals with government insiders.




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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #2
107. Bev, I'm confused about Georgia and what you said
In your post above, you said "And by the way, King County Washington is controlled by Democrats, as is Georgia, both locations where the machines are aggressively defended by Dems and criticized by Republicans."

Yet Georgia according to your book is the Diebold capital of the world, right? Diebold is O'Dell is Bush...there is no doubt whatsoever that Diebold is in the pocket of a Bush Pioneer, who claimed he'd deliver Ohio, etc.

So I am confused...
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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #107
124. Yeh. It's not simple. Some Dems act very strange about Diebold
Among them:

Linda Lamone, practically committed suicide to shove Diebold touch screens down the throat of the entire state of Maryland

Cathy Cox, Georgia, pushed Diebold into every nook and cranny. Gotta be replaced.

Dean Logan, King County, was former Washington State Elections Director. Signed a contract with Diebold agreeing not to have his special new version tested by any federal certifier, ever, and it looks like they plan to remove it on Nov. 16.

It actually is a nonpartisan issue, even though the ownership is highly partisan in three of the four big companies.

Bev
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Cookie wookie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #2
122. This is an oversimplification of GA
Edited on Mon Nov-01-04 01:05 AM by desert
1) Georgia isn't controlled by Democrats. We have a Rep governor, a Dem Secty of State, a Dem House and a Repub Senate.

2) The Dems in our government who defend e-voting machines in Georgia are led by Secty of State Cox. She wants to run for governor and has made a career choice to defend e-voting, since she was the one who talked the state into paying for it and staked her career on it. The idea that she did this because she intended to leave the vote open to hackers seems ludicrous, as does the idea that those in the SOS's office and the Georgia State Assembly don't want voter verified paper ballots because they want the elections to be hacked.

3) Logic test: If it's true there are all these security vulnerabilities, anyone from any political persuasion could hack the vote. Why would the Dem leadership want that? It would mean loss of control to any hacker from any political or nonpolitical persuasion.

4) As far as Cox and the Dems who support paperless evoting in GA, never have I witnessed a more unimaginative, disinterested and unknowledgeable group of people when it comes to technology.

Float this: The Dems supporting evoting in GA do so because they know nothing about technology, have no interest in learning anything, and trust Cox to tell them the truth. Her line: Our votes are safe and secure. They bite, hook, line and sinker.

5) If we had gotten our vvpat bill out of the rules committee we had the votes on the floor of the Dem dominated House to pass it, it seems your conspiracy would have to be limited to the Rules Committee and/or members of the SOS's office (and whoever their partners in crime might be).

6) A more plausible conspiracy theory would be that Cox has some overt or covert deal with Diebold to turn a blind eye, which would enable them (Diebold) to throw the vote via the GEMS code or their hackers -- and that means a victory for Bush and the Repugs, not Kerry and Dems.
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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #122
126. Well, you seem to have invented a conspiracy theory that I didn't say
I never said the Dems did this to hack votes. I said the Dems in some places bought these machines and are defending them to the death. Your analysis for motives sounds about right. I would guess that if there was a motive other than stupidity followed by ass-covering, it would be kickbacks.

Now, as for this point:

3) Logic test: If it's true there are all these security vulnerabilities, anyone from any political persuasion could hack the vote. Why would the Dem leadership want that? It would mean loss of control to any hacker from any political or nonpolitical persuasion.

I believe that the security vulnerabilities are so significant that anyone from any political persuasion can use the crappy software to manipulate votes.

Dem leadership seems to have been mentally lazy on this one. It is an onerous learning curve, and it's easy to just lean on one or two people, who may not do a great job of explaining the risks. But there is no doubt that the Dems fell apart when it came to figuring out how to monitor the central tabulator, and the computer scientists fell apart -- or more likely, had some sort of agenda -- when they decided to minimize central tabulator vulnerabilities and failed to warn of the modem risks.

Of course, academics are notoriously weak on Windows anyway, and the security experts Black Box Voting works with are not academics, but are on the front lines of security for Fortune 500 companies, computer companies, healthcare, and yes, government agencies. They are the real deal, and they have been brilliant in helping us come up with an effective way to create auditing workarounds to help spot fraud.

Whatever the reason, we need to stop the hackers cold, and it's no big deal to disconnect the modems, so we should just do it.

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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 04:30 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. So there may be a few lone-wolf Dems out there, but an army of neo-cons
There isn't even one documented link between a well-known Democrat, and any of these voting machines.

There is ample evidence however that voting machine companies are tied directly to CNP members and associates.

I condemn anyone who tries to cheat. Democrats must always maintain their integrity and honor, otherwise they become who and what they are fighting. Obviously, a few lone wolves will always exist in this imperfect world....and they need to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, and cast out.

However, you cannot deny that the major threat to free and fair elections comes from the right.

John
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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 04:46 AM
Response to Original message
5. BTW why did you split from David Allen in July 2003
I've noticed that you advertise your site as the real blackboxvoting site, however blackboxvoting.com was formed in January 2003, and your blackboxvoting.org was formed in July 2003.

So, why the split with David Allen and Plan Nine Publishing?

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yowzayowzayowza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #5
12. Fester, fester, fester.
Rot, rot, rot.
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 04:46 AM
Response to Original message
6. Bev, you are making the Founders Proud
This is all so troubling. These are treasonous bastards you're up against, but I agree. We MUST be careful not to step into their trap.

There is so much we are not being told. There are so many twists and turns and trials yet to face. Let's hope good wins over evil once again.

And I join you in encouraging Dems not to try anything stupid or heroic. Let the cyber trail lead to Repukes. If Dems gain control again, I will fight for the death penalty for ANYONE who tampers with ballots.
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lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 07:33 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. kick nt
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 07:42 AM
Response to Original message
8. Rush Holt or Robert Wexler?
Edited on Sun Oct-31-04 07:43 AM by leftchick
I can't believe they would ignore this VERY disturbing information. As far as computer expert help, have you checked in with slashdot about this? Oh Bev this is terrifying... :(
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 07:45 AM
Response to Original message
9. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ldf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #9
39. EXCUSE ME?!
perhaps YOU need to do a little research.

none of this would even be on the radar screen of average americans without bev and bbv.

take your crap elswhere.

:grr:
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MGKrebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 08:23 AM
Response to Original message
10. I don't understand.
We are to discourage activist hackers, because that would invite new, restrictive legislation?
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. Yet, 3 months ago she was calling on hackers
E-voting critic calls on hackers to expose flaws
Published: July 29, 2004, 12:22 PM PDT
By Robert Lemos
Staff Writer, CNET News.com

LAS VEGAS--Electronic voting systems have major security problems and hackers should make it their mission to find the flaws, an e-voting critic told security researchers on Thursday.

snip....

To hold voting machine makers to their promises of security, hackers should try to circumvent the systems and reveal their problems, she said. She pointed to a $10,000 reward promised by e-voting proponent Michael Shamos, a computer scientist at Carnegie Mellon University, as additional incentive.

snip....

Bev Harris, a well-known voting-security activist, joined Mercuri in the presentation, stressing that the system needs to be fixed, and soon.

http://news.com.com/E-voting+critic+calls+on+hackers+to...
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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. Nice. You quote Rebecca Mercuri and imply that is MY quote
Dr. Mercuri said that. Not me.

It's clear what's going on. I know the players and anyone who is playing this game is going down. Wrong plan. Wrong time. Idiots.

Bev
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SeveneightyWhoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #13
66. Flip-flop!
Right? Just like John Kerry! ;-)

Good jon on this Bev. You're a hero.
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nodehopper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #66
75. no flip/flop. she never said that.
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nodehopper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #13
74. Bev never said that. Can't you properly quote the copy in front of you?
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maxudargo Donating Member (306 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #13
117. I assume, whoever you are quoting
was suggesting "white-hat" crackers try to expose the flaws in the system BEFORE the election so the problems could be identified and be "fixed, and soon."
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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #10
21. Yes. You are to discourage activist hackers.
It's an idiotic idea, and there are other remedies that will be more effective even if the election is (temporarily) given to the wrong candidate.

"Activist hacking" is a trap, and only the stupid will fall in.

Bev
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yowzayowzayowza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 08:25 AM
Response to Original message
11. Ummmm....
You have to leave the security holes open because you are using a product called the DigiBoard, which can't be configured any other way.

Sounds like bogus info. DigiBoards have been used for decades with many operating systems including windoze and have no bearing on the security of the data stream they support.

In King County, when they stopped using the modems, it only took an hour longer to count the votes.

Soooo, one would assume that with the modems on, it would only take an hour to verify the aggregate numbers?

The only way to protect tomorrow's election is to disconnect the servers from the modems NOW.

The ONLY way? As if this method is the only way to tamper with tomorrow's election.... Suggest ya get cherself a wet towel immediately to extinguish the ongoing combustion of your cranial protein.
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FlaGranny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 08:53 AM
Response to Original message
14. I'm not supposed to say this
I don't think, but I will anyway. Remember those two folks that used to get on every BBV thread and do everything in their power to diss every single thing you said? Are they back?
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MGKrebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. I don't know who you are referring to, but for my part,
my memory was like that posted above, that the activists were being encouraged to help find the flaws. I'm no hacker, but I can't say I haven't spread this though around. Now something has changed 48 hours before election day? And someone who may have gotten involved because they saw something I or someone like me posted somewhere is threatened with prison by the very people they thought they were trying to help? I would be concerned that Bev is being extorted to change tack so completely.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #15
42. Your assertion is very misleading
No one called for hackers to simply hack the systems on Election Day. The call that was made was for hackers to figure out some hacks and PUBLICOZE them BEFORE Election Day.

Your twisting the words to make someone appear hypocritical when they've been consistent
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MGKrebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #42
58. Well, it's just my memory, but besides,
this is the lead story on bbv.org:

"OK folks. We now have what everyone keeps saying no one can come up with. We now have evidence that certainly looks like altering a computerized voting system during a real election, and it happened just six weeks ago."

bbv.org is using apparent actual hacks to prove that, what, actual hacks don't serve the cause?

I don't really want to take sides, hopefully we're all pulling in the same direction, but i do feel a little manipulated. Oh well. I'll just go be a poll watcher and see what happens.
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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. As they say in Texas, 'Whuuut?'
Evidence of a hack is evidence that we need to protect against further hacks. It is not evidence that we advocate hacking.

The evidence is audit logs, trouble slips, purged data, and so forth. We have no idea whether the apparent hacker was trying to manipulate an election or doing a dry run for Nov. 2 "show-off" hacking. Doesn't matter. We need to correct the problem.

Divert divert divert.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Ardee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #16
26. History is open to interpretation aint it?
Bev has been almost alone in her efforts to expose what very well might be an effort to subvert an election....again.

Rather than engage in egotistical attacks, whatever your reasons for them, perhaps it might be long past time to put (minor) differences aside and work to prevent the death of a democratic process.......
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. Intrepretation isn't necessary
It's all right here on DU for all to read; 18 months of it.

As for my efforts, I suggest you haven't a clue what I have done, nor what I intend to do. You see, I'm working to make a REAL difference and not playing publicity stunt like Ms. Harris does.

What polling place to you intend to be at on election day to prevent the theft of democracy? I'll be at one compiling the evidence needed to convict these thieves of democracy. Will you?

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Ardee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #28
51. back off and self examine
"One can build the Empire State building, discipline the Prussian army, make a state hierarchy mightier than God, yet fail to overcome the unaccountable superiority of certain human beings."
Alexandr Solzhenitsyn

Despite your desire that I bow down to your mighty zeal and commitment, take as fact your assassination of Bev Harris' motivations, and follow in glazed eyed lockstep obeisance to your "facts" I prefer to think for myself.

I have some small knowledge of the posts of Ms. Harris, some here many elsewhere and Ive absolutely no knowledge of you or your apparently vast commitment and works to assure fair electioneering. For all I know you are correct in all your seriously poisonous attacks, that ain't the crux.

It is simply and succinctly that those who would undermine the efforts of others to make themselves look better are just retarding progress.Perhaps this isn't your plan, perhaps you are a true activist and patriot working for the common good.

If so then perhaps you might lay off the character assassinations and unlinked assertions and join with Ms. Harris and others in an effort to work toward a common goal.
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. Why don't you call for the same from Ms. Harris?
There are many activists who have been slandered by Ms. Harris. Why don't you call for her to behave responsibly?

That's what I am doing here....I'm calling on Ms. Harris to act responsibly and work WITH the activists she has denigrated right here on this forum for 18 months.

So, please, think for yourself and ask why the serious activists and professionals RUN from Ms. Harris.

I'd like to see you ask Ms. Harris to quit denigrating activists like David Dill, Kim Alexander, David Jefferson and many others.

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Ardee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #53
56. You just wait to pounce don't you?
Where in my posts do you find any exemption for Bev? We are all human and perhaps you are accurate in your portrayal of her treatment of those who you name, I simply dont know nor do I care .

I still call for the same strategy. Bury the hatchet and work toward free and accurate elections, nothing else matters, especially your venomous and obscure reason for personal attack. I see that, don't see Bev doing the same right here and right now.........

"If a man begins in certainty he will end in doubt." Francis Bacon
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #56
59. Hell, no....I have no desire to pounce
But, I note your double standard. Sadly.

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Ardee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. To keep this up is futile
as you feel yourself persecuted and minimized by me ,despite my efforts to assure you otherwise. Please allow me to close this discourse with the words of an old and dear friend, my High School valedictorian in fact, sadly too soon dead:

"There comes a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you cannot take part, you cannot even passively take part. And you've got to put your bodies on the gears, and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus. And you've got to make it stop."
Mario Robert Savio
1942-1996

Wonderful and timeless words and , when set beside your petty bickering and boasting, ring even truer and more clearly.
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. Bwahahahahahahahahahahaha
as you feel yourself persecuted and minimized by me

I feel none of the above. In fact, I'm overjoyed by your display of double standards to be applied to all but Ms. Harris. It makes for a perfect example of do as I say, not as I do.

A textbook example.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
SomthingsGotaGive Donating Member (485 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #62
93. Maybe Bev has been held accountable here allready...
over 1000+ posts and she hasn't been banned for fear mongering, slanderous claims, or disruptive behavior.

You on the other hand are just doing the bidding of others.

Go away please.

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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #16
30. Nope, the authorities have not been 'visiting' me.
And everyone who knows me can verify that I have been working for protective measures, preventive measures, and risk mitigation.

We will seek to disconnect modems on Election Night. That has been a theme of my writing for over a year. It is others, who knew of the specific vulnerability, who kept silent and in some cases, mislead the press to think that the main vulnerability was elsewhere.

Again, it will eventually come out. Who knew what, and when, and what they did to inform the public and seek procedures to mitigate the risks. My question: How can you possible explain the behavior of qualified "security" experts who knew about this at least 11 months ago but chose to divert attention elsewhere?

It is not only our election officials who will be held accountable.

Bev
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #30
34. Name names, offer proof
I have no intention of playing with your paranoid delusions about "qualified security experts" who chose to ignore you.

Name names, offer proof of their diversion and we'll have a discussion.

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ldf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #34
40. and most of us aren't interested in "playing", either
as far as i'm concerned bev doesn't have to prove her credentials.

she has done more than that over and over again, right here on du.

i'm just a typical poster, computer semi-illiterate, but if bev says it, i trust her, because she has put her heart and soul into this.

she is not for sale, and is truly trying to do what is best for us as a nation.

she has had to put up with many roadblocks from the opposition, and many from our own side.

i find anyone who tries to undo what she has done, highly questionable.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #40
70. Poking my nose in here
ldf, I am in your corner, and that of Ms. Harris. The ONLY person that I have seen at the barricades, writing, speaking, appearing on the TV and radio about this issue is Bev Harris. She made me aware of this issue, and she is the one who has been slogging through the brutally dull but important details to bring us the truth.

I love the way some computer commandos pop up and are so eager to criticize, yet I see no links to their "hard work" on this important issue that affects each and every one of us. Where are their TV interviews, published works, and op-ed pieces? Those that CAN, do, and those that CAN'T, sit on their asses in front of their computers like little Lords of the Dinks and pontificate, criticize, and suggest, vaguely, why a proposed plan of action cannot possibly work, without offering practical solutions or rolling up their sleeves and pitching in to help.

This is a very IMPORTANT MESS. And it affects all of us, regardless of party--if the system is subverted, democracy is dealt a mortal blow. So it really is a question of LEADING, FOLLOWING or getting the hell OUT OF THE WAY.

As a person who is computer illiterate, I'm pretty useless in both the leading and following departments. Thus, I have no choice but to get the hell out of the way, and cheer Ms. Harris on. I know that she is working for the interests of DEMOCRACY. She should be applauded for that, not punked by know-it-alls who are unwilling to make an investment of their own sweat, time or talent to help make a bad situation better.
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #70
72. You don't know that
Some of us are doing this because we CARE - not because we are trying to sell a book/books (have no fear, Ms. Harris has announced her sequel).

You see, we don't need hyperbolic bullshit and dire unproven warnings to do the hard work that needs to be done.

We don't need public recognition to be good citizens and stand up for democracy.

We do it because it's our civic responsibility.

We do it because citizenship requires us to.

We do it because it is our duty to protect the rights of those too young, too small, too frail to do it today.

Some of us don't need lights and cameras.

And you have no idea WHO we are or what we may have accomplished.

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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #72
73. Why do you suppose that I am speaking about YOU?
Your post says more about you than me. All I can say is that I judge Ms. Harris by her works and deeds.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #73
79. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #79
81. Give it a rest, Roxanne.
The message is to try and solve the problems. At this point, one of the important solutions is to disconnect the modems.

I'm finding it extremely interesting that this simple, noncontroversial message -- disconnect the modems -- criminy, it's even in Rush Holt's legislation! -- this simple remedial measure is not being addressed. Instead, we are seeing distractions and personal vendettas.

Which brings me back to another of the messages in this post. Exploiting those holes through "activist hacking" has got to be the dumbest idea of the decade. It's time to bail on that wrongheaded plan.

So, boredtodeath, your position on disconnecting the modems is what? Disconnect them? Or distract the public?

When did you know about this problem, exactly? And please point us to your specific information to inform the public about this and get solutions.
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #81
83. Hahahahahaha, you've made yourself so many enemies
You don't who you're even talking to anymore.

As for the modems, if I have evidence - proof, solid evidence - that there is a problem with them, I'll suggest they be disconnected. But you offer no such thing.

Nor do you offer proof of any of your other allegations. When asked, you send in the diversion.

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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #83
88. So you think it's okay to use modems on Tuesday
Therefore, you must have evidence that indicates the procedures are secure. Please show us that evidence.

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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #88
89. I never said any such thing
I said I'm not buying your hyperbole and spin.

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CHIMO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #89
92. There Is A
Saying. It is "Shit or get off the pot."

The logic on some things does not require it to happen before one can prove that it can happen.

Bill Gates and his partner developed the IBM operating system on cards. It was done without a computer. It was done by logic and testing that logic.
If all one has to do is attack on a personal level then you are doing a good job at exposing yourself as not having anything to say.
Would disconnecting the modems reduce the possibility of errors or breakdowns?

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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #92
95. Actually, no
Would disconnecting the modems reduce the possibility of errors or breakdowns?

Modems would NOT reduce the possibilities of errors, nor increase them. They DO increase the possibility of hacked elections and tampering. I never said otherwise.

Breakdowns? Yes, turning them off would remove the possibility of modem breakdowns. In fact, it would eliminate them.

But Ms. Harris' allegations do not address the question you asked. She has offered no proof of anything in this thread. She's made allegations and despite all the calls for any proof of her claims, she fails to produce them.

Do I believe that electronic voting is a very, very bad idea? You're damned straight I do. And I'm doing everything in my power to stop electronic voting and prove it's lack of security.

But, threads like Ms. Harris' do nothing for the cause and do not move the issue forward. What they do is give our detractors the ability to point their finger, paint with a broad brush and say "See, your fearless leader is a computer neophyte and a liar."

She's not MY leader, but she allows our opponents to paint us all with her hyperbolic spin and publicity stunts. She does more harm than good.

DU is filled with computer geeks, as is Slashdot. Where are the server logs which would prove this "hack" at her website? All she has to do is release them and DUers would have her computer thief tracked down in 20 minutes. But, like every other "hack" Ms. Harris has alleged, no logs are produced, nor any proof offered.

If she has proof the election machines were hacked, as she alleges in her original post, then turn over the proof to the Department of Justice. Or Homeland Security. Or the FBI. Or any law enforcement agency. Because that's a violation of the law. Yet she brings her allegations to DU without an iota of proof. If she had any proof, law enforcement would turn off those modems FOR US.

As always, she can't prove her allegations. I wish to hell, just once, she could. This nightmare might be over.

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CHIMO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #95
96. Your Reply
Is misleading.

"Would disconnecting the modems reduce the possability of errors or disruptions?"

Which is it? Yes, No or ...
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #96
97. No
And here's why....

The modems don't collect the votes. The Touchscreens do. So, just turning off the modems doesn't affect the standalone DRE which is collecting the vote (and potentially flipping every 100th vote like in Virginia in 2003).

Modems alone affect nothing. They are only one more door to voting fraud. Closing one door when many are open (see the John Hopkins and RABA Technologies studies) solves nothing.

Would I suggest disconnecting them? Of course.

But that solves one of many problems. The least serious probability.

It's the mid point in an entire process that has potential and probability for fraud and manipulation.

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CHIMO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #97
98. Great
So we agree with the original statement.


So in addition to disconnecting the modems there is a lot of work to be done. I think that everyone on this thread agrees with that and I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors at the polls. I am sure that if you need any help there that there are lots here who would contribute.
Best of luck and hope for the best.
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #98
99. You're right
and law enforcement would jump right in to turn off those modems if ANYONE could offer proof of hacking.

I implore Ms. Harris get off DU and run to the nearest law enforcement agency and get these modems turned off.

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CHIMO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #99
101. I Agree
If one had a smoking gun then it would seem obvious. But this has been going on for a couple of years. Think of spies somewhere and Aschroft has shut it down.
Just imagine that you had to obtain insurance for the voting system. Just on errors and omissions insurance there is no way that you could afford it. One would first have to show that the system is sound. It seems to me that the system is not only unsound but has been constructed to fail.

So that then leads to the next question. What happens after? In order to maintain a system that works by rules and laws people have to agree to work within those rules, otherwise it is chaos. And if there are errors then they can be corrected.

So the most logical way seems to be to reduce the paths for errors.
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #97
116. Ah here is your problem.
your still watching the touchscreens.... :eyes:

It is the central tabulator...the the modems connect to it. It is WIDE open to hacking with the modems attached.

Try again.
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 07:48 AM
Response to Reply #116
138. Actually, I'm watching the ENTIRE system
Instead of playing into your wild eyed conspiracy theories.

What about the Central Count center? Who's watching the Central Count center?

Call Homeland Security, file a report, get those modems turned off and get back to us with a copy of the report.

Then, perhaps, someone will believe this is more than another Bev Harris publicity stunt.

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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #95
127. More for your nightmare, bored:
But, like every other "hack" Ms. Harris has alleged, no logs are produced, nor any proof offered.

I brought in security people who showed me how they diagnosed it. It involved typing code that traced some stuff which showed, for the most recent one, that the BlackBoxVoting.org DNS had been rerouted to nowhere. It's called DNS poisoning, they tell me. I can promise you I've got better things to do than go look up all the articles on this and print them here.

The contention that if I was hacked I'd know who did it is not very savvy. Most hackers are never caught, and this one appears to have bounced through several international routes, with most of the penetration attempts coming from Korea and Asia, and I think they said Indonesia.

If she has proof the election machines were hacked, as she alleges in her original post, then turn over the proof to the Department of Justice. Or Homeland Security. Or the FBI. Or any law enforcement agency. Because that's a violation of the law. Yet she brings her allegations to DU without an iota of proof. If she had any proof, law enforcement would turn off those modems FOR US.

Law enforcement doesn't generally work that fast, especially when investigating cybercrime. And of course what we have is reported to law enforcement. In fact, after whatever gestation period is customary, I imagine you'll be able to get the police reports in a public records request.

Bev
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Cookie wookie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #127
130. When was this reported and where?
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nodehopper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #83
91. You don't who you're even talking to anymore.
That's some Dubya-worthy grammar there.

She is talking to me and thousands who appreciate and respect her hard work. If this election is not stolen, much of the credit will lie with Bev Harris. And what exactly have you contributed to positive change?
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bobbieinok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #72
164. soooooo...link to what you do/have done LINK....LINK
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #40
188. To coin a phrase from folks I generally despise..
..... DITTO.

I'm not sure just what it is - but Ms Harris never seems to have a shortage of vocal detractors, most of who sound like bitter nobodies with an axe to grind.

I've seen Ms Harris post here for a very long time, a great deal of real information and effective activism. Why so many feel the need to fart in her punchbowl is beyond me, but I'm hoping they will dry up and blow away soon.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #188
194. Bitter nobodies with
Edited on Mon Nov-01-04 10:47 PM by plan9_pub
an axe to grind? Gotta love that.

How long have your been reading posts around here? Quite a few people helped Bev get where she is and now you come along and call them "nobodies". Saint Bev didn't do it all by herself.

These would include the people who actually took Ms. Harris by the hand and explained in detail what was wrong with the code.

This would include people who set up her web site, set up her forums, organized a team of programmers for the grunt work.

This would include folks like Avi Rubin and the Hopkins/Rice team who actually took the real risk of publishing their findings at the risk of losing their jobs and being sued.

This would include folks who actually posted the Diebold memos when Bev was too scared to post them.

This would include people who after all of this effort, all of this time, found themselves vicously attacked by Bev and accused of selling out for money.

Nobodies indeed.
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endnote Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-02-04 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #194
198. David, there are always the little followers who cannot think
for themselves and buy anything the Saint of the day tells them... Bev has a major credibility problem at this stage... It's embarassing and it gives a bad name to the cause... Now, any EVM company can say that anti-EVM activists are in it for the money, and that's it... Anybody who has been following this for the last two years objectively realizes that...
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-02-04 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #194
207. I've been reading them since she started..
... and IMHO she has been the target of total bullshit attacks almost from day one.

At first, it was "you're making a big deal out of nothing", and "you don't understand the technology" (which she readily admits is true).

I'm not necessarily putting you in that group of people, but I find the basic charge that 1) she's only in it for the money 2) she's hoggin the spotlight - to not seem true from what I've seen. She deserves the spotlight WITHOUT HER THE WHOLE BBV ISSUE MIGHT HAVE NEVER GOTTEN ANY ATTENTION AT ALL.

What I've seen is post after post with detailed information. Sure she's had others do the legwork. Without that, nothing gets done. But it is her show, she wrote the book, she pulled the threads and excuse me if I don't give a programmer that looked at the code the same level of props.

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endnote Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-02-04 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #207
209. Without her, the BBV issue would not be considered a tinfoil hat topic
by most, that is what would have happened.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-02-04 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #207
213. Sorry, you are missing the point
That she is in it for the money wouldn't bother a lot of people, given the publicity garnered, it is THAT SHE ACCUSED PEOPLE OF BETRAYING THE MOVEMENT BY SECRETLY FILING A "QUI TAM", SOMETHING ONLY *SHE* WAS DOING.

It is called projection.

And, once again, you credit Bev with way too much. I have no problem with her "hogging" the spotlight. What I have a problem with is her denigrating other people's equally important work.

Like:

1) The people who explained to her in great detail the importance and significance of the files she found.

2) The people who put their professional reputations on the line to publish about these files.

3) People who risked lawsuits and were in fact sued for posting the Diebold email (which Bev was originally OPPOSED handling, having threatened me with legal action for accepting them in the first place).

The list goes on and on. No one is denying her the glory she craves. We just get a little pissed when she makes a point of libeling her supporters.

I am sorry you don't think the programmers who risked jail reading the code (DMCA anyone?) are worthy of the same level of appreciation.

Most of us were perfectly happy to let Bev have the credit. What we didn't like was being smeared.

You need to read this story from the very beginning.
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nodehopper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #34
76. do you even know who Bev Harris is, you arrogant person?
do you know how much amazing work she has done in the last several years? Everything she has ever said has been backed up and documented.
She is a courageous and well-known activist, who are you to talk to her like that?
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #76
78. I know exactly who she is
and WHAT she is.
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nodehopper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #78
90. ooooh, sounds OMINOUS
well, I know who she is too, and I don't know who you are but everything you have written on this thread, especially your last response is incredibly lame.
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endnote Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #78
112. last time I cheked Bev betrayed the cause with her QuiTam lawsuit!
But she doesn't waht to talk about that, I think...
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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #112
120. I'm proud of the Qui Tam. Here's why:
1. It looks like, based on Diebold's statements in their stockholders meeting, that for the first time, restitution will be paid to taxpayers by a voting machine vendor.

2. Most Qui Tam lawsuits involve witholding information of critical public importance. We refused to withhold the evidence, even though we knew it might jeopardize any bounty money on the whistleblower suit. We will probably prevail anyway, proving that Qui Tam can be used in an honorable way.

3. Our case was joined by the California Attorney General, giving it weight and credibility. In a time when most lawsuits are being thrown out, it appears that ours will prevail.

4. The proceeds from the case will fund one of the strategic solutions to this whole mess.

Nope, I don't mind talking about it, because this case was conducted with honor all the way. It looks like it will be a win-win-win-win.

Bev
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #120
159. You are proud of the qui tam
because it means you have a shot at money as well as fame.

You squandered your credibility for the money Bev.

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ldf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #16
41. full fledged, unmedicated paranoia rearing it's ugly head.
get a clue!

unless you haven't noticed, THEY ARE OUT TO GET US!!!

Duh!
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. I believe so....
time for that ignore feature... :eyes:
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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 09:26 AM
Response to Original message
19. Fascinating. So this IS the plan.
Way to go, guys.

Idiots.

Bev
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Demonaut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 09:32 AM
Response to Original message
20. Bev, I've read your posts and though my knowledge on the systems
involved is lacking I still believe the repubs will stop at NOTHING to swing the election their way...screw the detractors in this thread..nothing I've seen gives weight to these attacks on your integrity, I for one laud you for your efforts and vigilance...Thank you Bev.
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yowzayowzayowza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #20
27. Having been separated from a considerable quantity...
of cranial protein dealing with DigiBoards, I can say that the claim regarding their part in the security issue is BUNK. Driver problems might limit the windoze update path but could not cause "unsecured Windows computers."

I also appreciate Bev's "efforts and vigilance" and fear myriad Repuke dirty tricks. Unfortunately her efforts continue to be fraught with hyperbole and paranoia that have proven to be harmful and counterproductive. Screw that.
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Demonaut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #27
32. sometime paranoia is healthy
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #27
33. "Hyperbole" "Paranoia" "Harmful" "Counterproductive"
Edited on Sun Oct-31-04 11:18 AM by Q
- If you're so f**king knowledgable in this area...why aren't you helping instead of offering your own brand of hyperbole? You call something 'bunk' without offering to elaborate.

- At least she's making an effort. All you've offered is Hot Air.
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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #27
36. There's a combination pack here
and if you know what the setup is, why aren't you stepping up to plate.

By the way: Have you called for officials to disconnect their modems? Yes, or no? I'd like to hear you say that the idea of disconnecting modems is a bad idea, or "paranoia."

The issue is the combined factors and we have the exact setup being used, so you either don't know or don't want others to know.

Bev
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yowzayowzayowza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #36
50. At bat - YowzaYowzaYowza:
Edited on Sun Oct-31-04 12:39 PM by yowzayowzayowza
Specifically, I have designed, written, sold and supported software utilizing a variety of DigiBoards. Do you know what a COM port is? COM1, COM2 like you plug your mouse er modem into???? A DigiBoard is just an array of COM ports that allows a computer to handle many more devices, like a bank of modems or barcode readers er whatever. The DigiBoard and its driver couldn't care freaking less what kind of data you flush thru it; that's between the application and the device. The security, therefore, comes from the application utilizing the devices, in this case, RAS. This claim is, therefore, bunk:

You have to leave the security holes open because you are using a product called the DigiBoard, which can't be configured any other way.

Meanwhile....

By the way: Have you called for officials to disconnect their modems? Yes, or no?

Hell no, I couldn't care less.

I'd like to hear you say that the idea of disconnecting modems is a bad idea, or "paranoia."

Regardless, if you are using a modem to transport the data or a carrier pigeon, the issue is the verification of that data via some form of validation, be it double checking manually or high-tech super-duper mondo-billy-badass encryption/security. I actually prefer a manual check, so a techno-attack of improperly maintained or dated systems would be assured defeat.

so you either don't know or don't want others to know.

Don't know what? Don't want others to know what? THIS IS THE PARANOIA!!!! I have been on this board since 9/9/1, long before you. Get a phucing grip. Hot air, indeed.

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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #50
57. We're doing triage here, yowza
Regardless, if you are using a modem to transport the data or a carrier pigeon, the issue is the verification of that data via some form of validation, be it double checking manually or high-tech super-duper mondo-billy-badass encryption/security. I actually prefer a manual check...

That's nice, but a manual check is against the law in most locations now, and we cannot change the law before Tuesday. And with the DRE machines, a manual check is not possible.

So, you go for the critical areas you CAN protect. One of those is disconnecting the modem.

If you are using unpatched unsecured Windows and RAS together with clueless public officials, thousands of poll workers running around with sensitive phone numbers, no record of who has keys to the tabulator room, you don't maintain logs of who accessed the tabulator, you use default passwords and usernames which were sitting on the Internet for 6 years, and you have no meaningful auditing procedures in place, you are a sitting duck.

Let's quit diverting attention and deal with what it is. We gotta get the modems disconnected before Tuesday.

Bev
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yowzayowzayowza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #57
80. Diversion complete.
Green Bay Winz!!!! Go KERRY!!!!

As you so aptly point out, there are many issues from which tomorrows election needs protection. Ultimately, the problem is not unsecured carrier pigeons rather no meaningful auditing procedures to reliably deal with among other issues: pigeon failures, faults and frauds.
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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #80
82. And your plan to get auditing in place by Tuesday is???
I was the first to define this as an auditing problem, not a computer problem.

Obviously, it's an auditing problem. We don't have auditing. Time to disconnect the modems. Hacking is not an option. There are other options that won't be discussed on Democratic Underground.
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yowzayowzayowza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #82
109. A few observations
To be honest I have not followed your work closely since the "Diebold is monopolizing the ballot printing business to engineer an election day ballot shortage" conspiracy theory.

You do realize that the "central tabulator audit log" isn't the only audit log available. All windoze 2k/XP systems' RAS features extensive audit log capabilities as well. Do you know the configuration of this log? Have you viewed it?

Also, RAS has long supported security regardless the dialup direction. Having setup DigiBoard based RAS before, this statement is highly suspect:

Diebold uses a "DigiBoard" device that cannot be configured to transmit unless the security is left wide open.

Even "unpatched" windoze 2K/XP has considerable security features; claiming that unpatched equates to unsecured is naive.
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Nlighten1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #27
108. A digiboard is just a communication device...
I don't understand why they would need one for this system though unless they are planning on having multiple serial modems dailing out/in.

Bev, can you provide more information about this?
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 08:13 AM
Response to Reply #108
139. Most GEMS systems have 12/24 modem ports
on the Digiboard.

Here's how it works:

Each precinct modems results to GEMS server location (in some cases there are hundreds of precincts)

GEMS sends results to Central Count server (multiple GEMS servers, 1 central count location, usually at a state office)

Results to the national press come from Central Count

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Nlighten1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #139
156. Seems rather odd...
Why not just have a unit at each polling station collect the data and send it instead of having all those modems?

Any hoo...having RAS on a modem line is begging to get hacked.


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Cookie wookie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #27
129. Removed.
Edited on Mon Nov-01-04 02:03 AM by desert
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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
22. Bev...You have to supena to raw access logs
That is the only way we are going to know if the election is being tampered with

Given the history of the Ratpublicans that want to steal yet another election I would say you would almost have to do this in REAL TIME too. What would prevent some one with FTP access from uploading logs with their IP massaged out of the logs.
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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. There are more ways to know.
They are entirely ethical and legal and will nail the bastards.

Obviously, we aren't posting them on Democratic Underground. The methods are going out privately to a network of Cleanup Crew members and others.

Guys, if you think hacking is the way to do this, you need to learn a little more about creative problem solving. Here's an example:

Give me three ways to find the height of a building with a barometer. Completely different ways using unrelated strategies.

If you can't, you fail the creative problem solving test, and you shouldn't be thinking the "only" way to show one thing is to do one other thing. You can always do a number of other things.

I know who the players are who may be exploiting this idiotic concept of hacking the election through remote access. Expect an interview from law enforcement.

I also need help. We can clean it up, and ya'll don't need to be so scared.

Since my Web site is out and that particular e-mail is probably toast, try this one, which has been fairly robust. And if you get a bounce-back on that, I'll give you another.

Bevharrismail@aol.com

We have specific actions that need to be taken to protect the election from hacking coming from either side. And those of you activists who followed this folly of a plan: I'm doing you a huge favor by outing this. Now is the time to bail.

Bev
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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #23
29. Bev I sent you an email
Let me know if you need anything
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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. Thanks. I will
very much appreciated.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #23
106. I appreciate Bev's efforts...
Edited on Sun Oct-31-04 09:28 PM by AntiFascist
and anyone considering hacking into the tabulation computers should also consider that there may be phone taps and you may have to spend time in prison. They may not track you down immediately, but if the data is being recorded... Also, be aware that the government has means for decrypting strong encryption.
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
24. Ms. Harris has 'credibility' with many...
...on this board and elsewhere. She has worked relentlessly to help fix the obvious flaws in our voting system. I would question the motive of anyone who would come to DU just to try to trash her name and work.

- She has offered her opinion on ways to cut down the potential for cheating. It's a reflection on our lazy, apathetic society that few will listen until it's too late.

- Bev...thanks for all your hard work on this vital issue. Don't be discouraged by those who would rather criticize and smear than help.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. I second that! n/t
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #25
64. 3rd that
n/t
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #64
71. Me, too (cheering from the sidelines!) n/t
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #24
38. Thank you Bev, for your tireless work to ensure fair elections.
The few disruptors here don't have a clue.

I know I certainly have spent all the time and energy the YOU have, and I KNOW THEY certainly haven't, to protect the freedoms we all fear are slowly slipping away.
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endnote Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #24
113. But she has ALSO lost credibility with many experts
especially with her paranoia and her little Qui Tam lawsuit flip-flop.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #24
160. Ms. Harris critics have credibility on this board as well
Many of them have born witness to her ugly and unfounded personal attacks against her allies when they dared disagree with her.

She isn't the only person who worked on this, she's just the person grabbing as much of the credit (and cash) as she can.

David Allen
Publisher, CEO, Janitor
Plan Nine Publishing
http://www.plan9.org
http://www.blackboxvoting.com
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endnote Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #160
162. I could not agree more with you David.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 11:10 AM
Response to Original message
35. So if you turn off the modems then how wil the central server
get the vote tally? Is there someone who manually connects to these voting machines from the central server and then downloads the data? Is it Karl Rove?
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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #35
46. Here's how King County did it:
The modems were timing out. That is a very dangerous sign, one that indicates hacking may have been taking place.

After much gnashing of teeth, King County told its people to drive the electronic ballot boxes in to the county, using exactly the same security typically used with paper ballot boxes. In front of observers, they inventoried, logged in, and uploaded the memory cards while sitting right there in front of us.

The mistake they made, unfortunately, was that at no point did they disconnect their modems, and there were sporadic messages (I took binoculars so I could view the specific messages on the screen) -- the modems were still trying to connect and timing out. Very wierd.

They tried various troubleshooting things.

But it is much safer to disconnect modems, put together election judges and party observers and citizen observers, drive the electronic ballot boxes in, and upload them there.

In King County, the decision wasn't made to drive the memory cards in until a couple hours after the polls closed. Yet, they were uploaded by 2:30 a.m., about an hour longer than usual -- and remember, they didn't start for a couple hours.

This is not difficult. We can do it.

Bev
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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #46
49. That's how we do it! Except without the Diebold part.
Our ballots are tallied at the polling place via optical scan. After polls close, we go to the central polling place with the paper ballots and the cards from the machines and BOOM, away they go.

When I was at training they said a very telling thing, offhand. "We use the paper ballots as backup in case the memory card fritzes out or something." Really made me wonder about, what would you do if there WERE no paper ballots?
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Ardee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #46
54. How some Third World nations did it....
According to Jimmy Carter (may he live long and prosper) there are touch screen voting systems that combine with a paper ballot, once you vote you verify that the paper print out is an accurate representation of your vote, sign and place it in a lock box.

If there are reasons to doubt the validity of the vote count one has access to a paper trail for recounting.

Also according to Carter the US fails to meet any criteria for safe and fair election procedures....land of the free and home of the brave my ass.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #46
55. Sounds like denial of service attacks, really bad for dial-up systems
The way you describe the procedures (driving the systems out to the voting place etc) is EXACTLY how it should be done all over the country, and I wonder why no federal law has been put into place to make it so. Also, why didn't they have broadband capabilities (they've had 4 years to develop build them)? If location is an issue than surely someone has a wireless system that could reach rural areas. I live in a small 2000+ town, and I have a really fast DSL connection! I hate dial-up, it is the easiest type of system to CRASH and keep down. Then again, maybe that's how Rove wants it.
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #46
110. Great work Bev***What do we need to do?
n/t
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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #110
121. You can observe the central tabulator on Election Night
Plan to go to your county office Tuesday night, and plan to stay until the wee hours.

If you are on the Cleanup Crew (email Bevharrismail@aol.com to join) you will receive confidential instructions tomorrow night by email.

(I just checked. You're on the list, Shance.)

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Oilwellian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
37. I think....
the "hacker world" is poised to make a mockery of this election and show the American public just how vulnerable these electronic machines are to tampering. "They" have no interest in seeing that either a Dem or a Repub wins office, rather they have an interest in seeing that this country has fair elections and remains a democracy. I don't agree with their method, but I sure as hell understand why they have such a strong desire to get the American public's attention.

I doubt the focus would be on Mercuri asking for hackers to demonstrate the electronic machine's vulnerability. It's a stretch to suggest that's what she wants during the election. If I recall correctly, it was an effort last summer to demonstrate to voting officials just how easily these machines can be hacked and the votes changed.

I'm torn between seeing it take years to get the attention of these officials and taking the legal steps to assure the security of these machines as opposed to a big hit on election day that will immediately get the voting public's attention.
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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #37
43. Those are honest words.
When we found the exact mechanism to RAS in using the exact Diebold setup, and then King County accidentally gave us the one piece of info we needed, I wrestled with it too. For a minute.

But introducing chaos cannot win this battle. Therefore, we came up with a method so devastating that, at last, I could see that we will win this, no matter what happens on Election Day.

Hacking is not the way to go. Tempting, but there are other, better ways, and a hacking attack can trigger VERY bad unexpected consequences.

Bev
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donsu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
44. kick

nt
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tinanator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
45. Important question for you Bev
I know youre busy, but I would love your opinion on this article from a couple of months back in our local paper
http://www.fresnobee.com/local/story/9035616p-9932333c....

to sum up-

<Fresno County voters will have to wait at least two hours longer for election results in November because officials are concerned that terrorists could tamper with returns transmitted over phone lines.
Poll workers no longer will send the results electronically after the polls close at 8 p.m. Instead, drivers will transport the voting machines from as far away as Coalinga and Shaver Lake to a warehouse in downtown Fresno guarded by sheriff's deputies. Officials will take out the memory cards and download the results directly onto the county's election server.

Said Fresno County Clerk Victor Salazar: "Yes, it's going to take longer, but there are those who will attempt to hack into our computer system, so we're going to close down our points of access."

The new procedure on election night in Fresno County will force officials to find drivers who can transport the machines, which weigh roughly 10 pounds, to downtown Fresno. Salazar said the county already recruits about 3,000 people to work on Election Day. The majority are poll workers. Some will be assigned to driving duty.
The plan is for the drivers to leave with the machines, which are similar in size to a computer printer, shortly after the polls close. Once they get to the warehouse, the machines will be logged in and their memory cards extracted.

Officials estimate it will take less than 10 seconds to download the information from the memory cards to the county server.

"If we have open phone lines, someone can get into it without us knowing," said Marc Gonzalez, an analyst in the County Clerk's Office. "This way, the results will go onto our own local network that's not connected to the Internet and not connected to the county's Web site.">


From what you are saying, I should be reassured rather than alarmed these boxes are going into the custody of an assuredly conservative and corrupt sheriff department's custody?

Thanks!



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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #45
48. You should be reassured if you have observers watching
because you should be able to watch every step of this.

Yes, you are safer having the boxes driven in, and using the citizen auditing procedures we are advocating. Email me if you would like to join the Cleanup Crew.

If your county is like Riverside, which prohibits observation of some of the key steps in delivering, unsealing, and prepping the ballot cartridges, and has central tabulators hooked up via network to another central tabulator that no one can see, you're election is probably getting rigged.

But the solution is not to hack it. It's to observe, get the right info, audit, and expose. They are leaving their undies out when they do this stuff, because they don't understand auditing and don't know what people are really looking for.

Bev
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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
47. The problem is that the system is so decentralized,
county by county, what would get the most weight would be local individuals and organizations (and the press) talking to their individual county election boards.

I don't really feel like there is anything I *can* do as an individual because I have already looked into our process in our county and we don't use any kind of electronic voting machine.

If there are individuals and organizations in key counties here on DU, then THOSE people are the ones who have to work with their county election boards. Local residents are the ones who have the power... just my two cents.
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ThoughtCriminal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
52. Possible to set up a sting?
Leak a wrong number to a "special" server - not the one the voting machines are tied to. The server is actually not the election server - it's gathering evidence.
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kittykitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
65. Why don't we use India's system? Not so far-fetched as you may think
I saw an article in the Time of India where an Indian was speaking to some students here (I think) and joked that we should outsource the election to India who had just used a form of electronic voting very successfully. So I googled voting in India

Link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/3493474.stm
There is a picture of the voting machine and method about 1/2 way down.

Looking further all I found was an April Truthout article saying that "hooligan" had held up a polling place, and forced their way in, and voted over and over for their candidate. The police were intimidated and did nothing.

If it works for India with all those people, surely we can do better here.
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 02:15 PM
Response to Original message
67. I have remained quiet up until now on this thread to collect my thoughts.
Here is my 2 cents worth.

I am and have always remained resolutely against hacking of the election...Democrat or Republican there is no place in our Republic for this type of behavior. The means do not justify the ends in this case. I would never advocate for ANYONE to hack the election. I have not spent the last 2 years of my life fighting for fair elections to see anyone screw with...change or fiddle with the results. Anyone who does this in my opinion should be severely punished and is lowlife scum.

It amazes me that there is even serious discussion here advocating hacking. It is wrong and is intolerable.

Andy
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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #67
69. Agreed - Democrats need to set the example, and adhere at all times
We are no better than those we fight, if we do otherwise. Honor, integrity, and the truth of both our facts and of our ideas, must always be the weapons we wage war with.
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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
68. Bev, you haven't answered my questions or responded to my comments yet
Edited on Sun Oct-31-04 02:18 PM by Bozos for Bush
Wow, this thread sure became explosive while I got my usual 5 hours of sleep...

Bev, I don't know you. And perhaps I'm a little paranoid, because I know these machines can cheat, at some level. When I voted Friday night on a machine, I selected english, entered my secret 4-digit code, and the entire thing changed to spanish on me...now this ain't as bad as changing my Kerry vote to Bush, but still this should not have happened.

I have worked tirelessly the past three weeks along with starroute and a small group of folks, finding evidence to help bring down the vast RW conspiracy starting next Wednesday. Although I do not have 1000s and 1000s of posts (yet LOL) I do not think anyone in their right mind could have observed my work the past three weeks and believe I am anything other than who I am...former vet, honorable, fed up ever since my mom got a scam letter, and determined to do something about all of them...Jarmin, Ridenours, Response Dynamics, College Repubs, Harlan Crow, Perry, the entire CNP, etc. Looking at my words, I almost look like a conspiracy nut now, yet I know that I'm quite sane, and we have already documented detailed links to assist our goal of shutting this whole RW system down. Come next Wednesday, we could use a lot of help to make this happen as soon as possible.

OK enough soapbox - I responded to you with documented evidence that all major voting machines have intimate ties to Republicans/CNP members. I asked you why you put down the other site, when yours was founded in July 2003 and the other one in January 2003, and I asked you what happened between you and the other guy. It appears to me (when looking at the sites) that both sites share a common goal - fair voting. Yet it's obvious that the two of you don't get along these days. So I would like to know why, and what happened.

As I mentioned before, you cannot deny the fact that there are strong links between neo-cons and voting machine companies, and not a single link between a known Democrat and voting machines. Please comment on this observation as well...for example, do you have any evidence that will assist our efforts to crack this wide open? It's not often that I have a chance to have a conversation with an owner of a well-known web site, so I would really like to know if you have any evidence about this.

Thanks!

John
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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #68
85. Um, it's because I was the first one to find the owners
Please download Chapters 1, 3 and 8 of my book. It is on the Internet for free on http://www.blackboxvoting.org .

Some of your facts are a little distorted, and of the four major voting machine companies, 3 have inappropriate conflicts of interest with Republican interests, one with Democratic interests, and two have problems with criminal elements who may sell things off to the highest bidder. (Chapter 8).

Sorry, it's just that to me this is old news, and the factual parts come from my own research, which then got picked up and elaborated on by others. Time and date stamp on the first story to link Republican ownership to voting machines was Oct 10 2002, the story that got me my first cease and desist notice.

The problem with David Allen will be litigated in a courtroom, after the election, not here on a message board. Because I turned my revenues and rights over to the nonprofit group, it is the board of directors who will file suit, not me, and we're too busy right now to do that. At the time the suit is filed, the facts will be laid out, with the evidence, and can be discussed with an evidenciary presentation.

Bev
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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #85
102. OK, I'll check them out - thanks! (n/t)
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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #85
104. Outstanding research there by you, David, and everyone else that helped
Edited on Sun Oct-31-04 09:33 PM by Bozos for Bush
I'll read the rest of the chapters later, but just wanted to say "thank you" for all the hard work you and David Allen did on this story.

It's sad that people who share a common goal cannot remain united towards that goal. Free, fair elections should be the goal of every single decent, honorable American.

John
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endnote Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #104
114. Last time I checked Bev Harris broke up with David Allen...
I guess she might have been nervous he would "spoil" her Qui Tam trick...
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #114
158. Damn straight she was!!
Had I also known she made her money peddling anti-Clinton merchandise, I would never have gotten involved with her.

David Allen
Publisher, CEO, Janitor
Plan Nine Publishing
http://www.plan9.org
http://www.blackboxvoting.com
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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #158
189. I would like to know more about this peddling of anti-Clinton stuff please
I had no idea I walked into a soap opera - however, it's quite interesting.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #189
191. tis quite a soap opera
have observed for awhile. I appreciate bev's work and the work of many others on this issue. It is very important.

However, there seems to be a bit of either/or sentiments... either you believe in the work and then the all-positiveness of bev... or if you criticize some of bev's mo then you must be hostile to the cause.

Those that have fallen out - often in ugly and public squabbles - tend to uniformly still push the cause - and give credit to bev - albeit with some skepticism per motives.

The antiClinton paraphanalia - if I recall - was peddling cigars with some monica-clintonesque slogans (definitely anti-clinton stuff) that was pushed through various old newsgroupd/bulletin boards.

All that said, I still support the work bev has done and appreciate it. I just take some things with grains of salt and continue to hold some healthy skepticism per motives/style. As opposed to most folks who follow the issue - I believe that it is possible (even healthy) to do both.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #191
196. As far as I know
all of the folks from DU who have suffered at her hands are STILL in this and still fighting. I have repeatedly given Bev credit for what she has done, the reverse is seldom true (She complimented me on one piece in this thread, but then turned around and disparaged me for the rest of the post).

Bev DEMANDED that I turn over bbv.com to her as she "owned" it. I refused as I had already given her bbv.org which is all I was ethically or contractually obligated to do. Also, as I coined the phrase (something I expect to see Bev deny any day now) I believe I have a quite valid claim to the domain.

While Bev has re-written her book to change history, I have left it alone as written.

I have tried to continue the fight against BBV, but have ran into interference from Bev on numerous occasions. When news organizations have been unable to get her to call them back, I have spoken to them (making it clear that I did not speak for Bev and still praising her contributions and efforts). Bev has been less charitable on my behalf telling reporters all sorts of libelous falsehoods (yes Bev, they do pass along your comments).

When I spoke to my hometown newspaper on BBV (and subsequently wrote an op-ed piece that got the paper to repudiate its endorsement of BBV), Bev's contribution was to call the reporter up and threatened to sue unless they retracted the statement that I was co-author of the book (I had told them contributing writer, which I have said and still maintain, Bev's "new" version not withstanding). They saw my name under Bev's and drew an incorrect conclusion.

(Note: Only one person has seriously referred to me as Bev's co-author and that was Bev herself.)

Now, if Bev was truly dedicated to our cause, why would she seek to sabotage my efforts in a fit of pique over how I am referred to in the article? Bitching about me here on DU is one thing, doing so to the press, especially a friendly press, so that it harms the cause is something else. This is a woman who is supposed to be a PR expert? Do you know how many times I had to smooth over pissed reporters who got lectured on how stupid they were by Bev? This is how you handle the press? No wonder 60 Minutes would have nothing to do with her.

Once the archive are back online, go back and read the REAL history of this project. You don't have to believe me or Bev, you can read it for yourself.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #189
195. Back in '98
Bev was selling "el Presidente" cigars through her business Talion Marketing. You can see a cached ad here:

http://web.archive.org/web/19991112034903/http://www.ta...

She then began spamming usenet:

Well...someone has already found a smoking pun. A Renton
Washington-based marketing firm, has already begun selling THE
PRESIDENTIAL CIGAR.

"We selected a large-size cigar known in the industry as an El
Presidente," says owner Bev Harris. The five-dollar collector cigars,
which feature an official gold seal and a Billy-C image, measure an
impressive (in the cigar industry, anyway) six inches long, with a
respectable 50-ring size circumference.

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=author:talion%40ix.ne...

Bev portrays herself as a progressive/Democrat fighting against the evil GOP. But when there was money to be made, she was happy to join the Rush Limbaugh crowd.

I found out about this only a few months ago from this post on slashdot (and no, I don't know the poster. I discovered it when I was reading the Diebold message board).

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=119942&threshold=-1...

Unfortunately, all the DU links are down until after the election and the archives come back online.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-02-04 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #195
200. I became aware of this rather tacky endeavor
quite awhile ago (shortly after bev came to DU), It left me skeptical. However the work on bbv has been important so I watched and read with little comment. Is the item necessarily "anit clinton", or is it merely opportunistic. I read it as the latter. As I view some of the spats over time... as being due to at least a small part of this endeavor as being oppoortunistically motivtated.

Just how it seems to an observer.
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AtTheEndOfTheDay Donating Member (454 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-02-04 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #195
220. Making money off the bastards
sounds ok to me. Kind of a funny idea.
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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #104
118. Excuse me, David Allen had nothing to do with those chapters
He wrote half of chapter 16 and did a very good job, though it required a heavy edit because it had a sarcastic style and sometimes crossed libel lines that could have gotten me sued.

He had absolutely nothing to do with the research in Chapter 1, 2, 3, 4, he did a half-page or so in Chapter 5, he had nothing whatever to do with the research in Chapter 6, 7 and 8, nor Chapter 9, 10, 11, 12, or 13. He insisted on a dumb section in Chapter 14 which will be removed in the next edition, because it has been ridiculed by computer scientists for a number of reasons. He had nothing to do with Chapter 15. He had nothing to do with Appendix A; he came up with 4 out of about 320 footnotes, when I told him where they were, and as the "publisher" he did not even create the index or the table of contents.

I provided him with the time, access code, and info on the meeting he reported on in Chapter 16. I also provided the document that comprises about half of Chapter 16.

He certainly was not the one who identified the source code files from the FTP site (that was a former touch-screen engineer, Dan Spillane) -- though somehow after interviewing him, two reporters said he did; he did not analyze the source code either, that was done by Roxanne Jekot and several others.

But whatever. That will come out in thoroughly provable ways.

Several of the people who worked as protected sources are coming forward, so it is becoming harder for others to claim their work.

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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #118
131. OK well sorry, had no idea when I first posted in this thread that...
I was getting into a war situation. Looks like lots of bad blood and split opinions around here, and since I have no idea why, I'll just keep my mouth shut.

Regardless of what happened, good luck in your efforts to make these elections fair.
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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #131
132. Actually, I'm sorry about that. You are clearly doing research
and I'm sure that the answers you are finding are nasty enough not to want to see all this back-and-forth. Don't keep your mouth shut, because it is these debates that hone our arguments so that we can easily debate public officials.

There was a split that occurred Sept. 23, 2003 that has festered ever since, because there are different agendas. One group wants to focus exclusively on DRE touch-screens, and our group focuses on the bigger problem.

Something about DU -- the crowd here tends to like gossip and argument a lot, so this thread was pretty lively. The touch-screen group seems to want to control the dialog, keeping the message focused on just that one part of the system. Of course, the GEMS central tabulator is involved in defining the ballots for touch-screens, so I imagine they include that too.

Our group is very concerned about tabulator manipulation because the current weak auditing won't catch tampering, and we recently came into new information about how serious the remote access problem is. We also get into other consumer investigations, such as vote suppression and ballot printing.

There's some sort of lawsuit afoot regarding specifically DRE voting machines. It's pretty huge, apparently, and it is affiliated with one contingent in the movement that has been minimizing problems with remote access and the central tabulator, focusing only on the touch screen.

Actually, I enjoyed reading your posts, and will try to be less divisive in my responses. Hope to hear more from you.

Bev
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #132
166. Yet another "new version" of the truth.
There was a split that occurred Sept. 23, 2003 that has festered ever since, because there are different agendas. One group wants to focus exclusively on DRE touch-screens, and our group focuses on the bigger problem.

This is a compete and utter falsehood.

Bev "split" from Rox, Eloriel et al, when she started falsely accusing them of conspiring against her and filing lawsuits to enrich themselves behind her back (actually, Bev was the one filing the the law suit).

There ARE two groups on DU: Those Bev has screwed over and those who haven't gotten in her way yet.

David Allen
Publisher, CEO, Janitor
Plan Nine Publishing
http://www.plan9.org
http://www.blackboxvoting.com
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endnote Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #166
168. David has the RIGHT version of the split story
There is plenty of evidence to back his story up.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #118
157. Seeting the record straight yet AGAIN!
He wrote half of chapter 16 and did a very good job, though it required a heavy edit because it had a sarcastic style and sometimes crossed libel lines that could have gotten me sued.

That is total BS. When Ms. Harris sues me, we WILL learn a lot that Ms. Harris would prefer not be known, which is why she won't sue. I went back and counted the number of people Bev has threatened to sue and it is over a dozen.

She has threatened to sue me quite a few times. The first time was when I downloaded the Diebold memos that Bev was CERTAIN were a trap to discredit her. She wanted nothing to do with me or the memos, but changed her tune once it became apparent that I was right and unless she acted, someone else would beat her to the story.

He had absolutely nothing to do with the research in Chapter 1, 2, 3, 4, he did a half-page or so in Chapter 5, he had nothing whatever to do with the research in Chapter 6, 7 and 8, nor Chapter 9, 10, 11, 12, or 13. He insisted on a dumb section in Chapter 14 which will be removed in the next edition, because it has been ridiculed by computer scientists for a number of reasons.

More BS, though at least this one is new. Just who were the computer scientists who "ridiculed" the work? Would it be any of the computer scientists that you yourself ridiculed and slandered? You know, like Avi Rubin, Rebecca Mercuri, Doug Jones, and David Dill?

Let me quote from a 10/1/2003 email from Bev:

To: david@plan9.org
From: bev_blackboxvoting@yahoo.com
Subject: Heroic work today...

OK, first, I'm not going qui tam. Nothing in my gut feeling about that has changed; it's not the path for me. I will talk to the lawyer tomorrow, because a lot of the activists have gone that way now, and I want to know a lot about it so I can more easily recognize the symptoms. Do you realize how many people they'll shut up this way?

The reason Rox thought it was "unethical" that I outed the ISP for confiscating our FTP server is that she and EFF were probably behind it in some way. The hint was MGKrebs, who wanted to know the latest thing we have in our book. If it appears in our book, you see, they can't use it for qui tam. If we have a copy of our own forum, you see, they can't use it for qui tam. That's why Rox kept emphasizing that SHE has a copy. A redacted copy, just for us.

So far, Dill, Rubin, Rox, Eloriel, and several others have gone that route, and though I'm not supposed to say, I expect Jim March to do so shortly. Quite soon, the computer experts available as activists will be few and far between.


The only person on the list who was filing "qui tam" was Jim March, who then recruited Bev. (Mercuri and Jones are not mentioned here, but Bev mentioned them as "betraying democracy" in phone calls to me and in discussions with others.

PLEASE NOTE: Several months ago Ms. Harris challenged her critics to provide even a single example that she had EVER accused anyone of filing a "qui tam". The above email was produced and several other regulars also provided testimony to back up the email. Bev then said that DU was not the place to discuss this (apparently, DU is where you can libel and slander people, but not where you can apologize). She then said she would no longer post to DU, a promise that lasted about a month.

I provided him with the time, access code, and info on the meeting he reported on in Chapter 16.

True, but you are not getting the whole story. Bev asked me if I would listen in on the conference since she was worried about whether what we were doing was legal. She tried to get me to use a false name and claim to be from one of the voting machine companies who would not be attending. I refused, saying I would go in under my own name so they couldn't claim we tried anything funny. Since a legitimate person gave Bev the code, I saw nothing wrong with going in, but Bev was worried about being arrested, so I did it for her and was praised highly by her for it.

He certainly was not the one who identified the source code files from the FTP site (that was a former touch-screen engineer, Dan Spillane) -- though somehow after interviewing him, two reporters said he did; he did not analyze the source code either, that was done by Roxanne Jekot and several others.


Playing with words again.

1) I explained to you that they WERE source code files and WHY they were important. You even admit as much in the book, but I note that you have gone back and "revised" your version of the story in your "updated" version of the book on your site.

From the original BBV edition, chapter 9, page 96

http://thoughtcrimes.org/bbv/bbv_chapter-9.pdf

I clicked press releases to see what kind of claims this company
was making. Then I clicked all the links. I clicked the link called FTP and it took me to a page full of files.

I called David Allen. What am I looking at?

He took one look at the page and snorted incredulously. Incredible stupidity.

Click Pub he suggested. We did. What follows is the first detailed look ever into a secret voting system.

What do you do when you find 40,000 secret files on an unprotected file transfer site on the Internet?


In Bev's "sanitized" version she adds and subtracts. (Sorry I can't cut and paste the text, Ms. Harris no longer permits this). The sentence that is added is:

"Allen admitted that that the file names like "BS4" and "GA-062802" meant nothing to him, but we both knew that this was an online file stash.

I said nothing of the sort. As I looked through the files I commented on the names of files and folders. I commented that some while some were not readily obvious, some might be state abbreviations and I was sure that some were dates. I also pointed out various file types explaining to Bev about documentation and source code files. I told her that it was useless to look at .com and .exe files, and that she should concentrate on .src, .bas, .txt, .doc, .pdf, .rtf and .pif files.

Bev was clueless as to what she was looking at, which is why she called me. To her credit her "instincts" were that they were important.

Bev has now gone back and changed her story to spin it more to her liking.

Also, I have never claimed to have analyzed the files in anything more than a cursory fashion, always giving credit for that work to Roxanne Jekot and the team of programmers she assembled. I have repeatedly stated that my expertise is hardware as a system engineer, but that I knew enough about programming to know crap when I saw it.

Dan spillane didn't come onto the scene until a bit later. (Note, Dan was another person Bev was alternately hot and cold on. She speculated on his mental fitness and sexuality on numerous occasions and worried that he might be a liability).

While Bev has contributed to the cause of BBV, she has done so at the expense of MANY people's reputation. She smears people, then denies doing so, then demands people PROVE she did so. When proof is provided she NEVER apologizes and starts smearing again. Now, we see that she is re-inventing the story so it eliminates myself and others who "crossed" her from the history.

Just because Bev has contributed to this movement does not obviate the fact that she is a very petty and vindictive person. I and others are tired of her baseless attacks.

This issue is not the exclusive property of Bev Harris. Hundreds of people, if not thousands have taken up the banner and fought the good fight.

David Allen
Plan Nine Publishing
http://www.plan9.org
http://www.blackboxvoting.com
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #85
165. I look forward to seeing you in court
Edited on Mon Nov-01-04 07:41 PM by plan9_pub
The problem with David Allen will be litigated in a courtroom, after the election, not here on a message board. Because I turned my revenues and rights over to the nonprofit group, it is the board of directors who will file suit, not me, and we're too busy right now to do that. At the time the suit is filed, the facts will be laid out, with the evidence, and can be discussed with an evidenciary presentation.

And when we get into court, I will be calling an old client of yours to testify. He told me a truly fascinating story about you and your "original" research.

David Allen
Publisher, CEO, Janitor
Plan Nine Publishing
http://www.plan9.org
http://www.blackboxvoting.com
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IdaBriggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 05:41 PM
Response to Original message
77. Kick. nt
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Shopaholic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
84. Bev--please cross-post this to the Election 2004
forum--I think that the folks there need to see this too. I want as many DU'ers to see this as possible.
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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #84
86. Is cross-posting against the rules?
Anyway, I have some security folks here and have to stop for awhile, see ya later.

Smooches,

Bev
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Shopaholic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #86
87. Oops--I think you're right
Hopefully everyone else checks both this forum and the Campaign 2004 campaign too. Lately it's a full-time job keeping up with both.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
94. Is there anyone traveling with Kerry who could help?
Some of our volunteers were going to see him off at the airport tomorrow . I wasn't planning on going, but I could try to give someone there something if you have a name. :shrug:
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endnote Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 07:46 PM
Response to Original message
100. KICK
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scottxyz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
103. This is important info
Thank you so much Bev for all you have been doing to expose the flawed voting software being rammed down our throats in this country.

I have been an Access programmer for many years but I feel overwhelmed trying to correct a system being willfully written wrong by another party. Its hard enough to program a system correctly when youre doing it yourself (particularly on the precarious MS-Windows platform) - but when someone else is writing the program, and they deliberately want to create security flaws - this is something I honestly dont know how to fix.

Diebold ATMs work all over the world and never lose one cent out of anyones bank account. You dont have to be a programmer to see that the fact that Diebolds voting machines have trouble correctly performing the rudimentary operation "+1" is clear evidence of fraud right there.

It would be nice if we had an honest media and honest pollsters, so that we could see that the reality right now is probably around 55% Kerry vs 45% Bush going into Election Day, so that any tampering would be more obvious.

However, I think Bev has done the best thing you can in this difficult situation - exposing the wrongdoing and warning us about traps being laid for us. Reading Bevs reasoning (and seeing how the whole setup of Dan Rather with the memos played out), I agree that "activist hacking" could very well be a clever trap laid for us. This is how Rove operates - often just one level deeper than an initial analysis might expect.


(I would also like to point out that 'Boredtodeath' is obviously a troll, no more and no less. The discussion here is about how to deal with poorly designed, easily hackable voting systems - not to try to distract this important discussion by yelling "Hey, Bev wants to make money publishing a book!" The presence of trolls such as 'Boredtodeath' on all of Bevs threads is proof of how imporant these threads are and how scared the right wing is of being caught vote-tampering.)
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #103
105. so many excellent points scott!
Thank you! Thanks to Bev as well and please don't watse your energy on the TFHP clones. We Will Win!

:)
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endnote Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #103
111. heh, especially when the money is not in the book but in the QuiTam!
Edited on Sun Oct-31-04 11:01 PM by endnote
Regardless, paranoia is good in this case!
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #111
115. In case you hadn't heard...
The Qui Tam proceeds...go back into the organization to further clean elections...not into Bev's pocket. She will not control one cent of it. Better luck next time...Come back and play agin real soon. mmmmmkay?
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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #115
128. Thanks, Andy. And thanks for the 12-hour day you put in today.
I would guess that boredtodeath wouldn't be so bored if she was juggling as many balls as we are. Hey! BoredToDeath? Andy can put you right to work, solving your boredom affliction completely. Wanna help? We could sure use it!

Bev
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endnote Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #128
142. I'm sure you could USE and have USED many people
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #142
144. Stomping sour grapes is so
unbecoming.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #128
169. Not that I speak for B-to-D
but I would think that collecting a new set of cutlery in the kidneys is not high on his list of productive methods for using his time.

David Allen
Publisher, CEO, Janitor
Plan Nine Publishing
http://www.plan9.org
http://www.blackboxvoting.com
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endnote Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #169
174. LOL
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #169
185. Actually, you're free to speak on my behalf any time
Since everything you've said has been provable and honest.

As for my time tomorrow, I'll be sitting at an election superintendent's office from 7:00 AM until every vote is counted, every absentee ballot is scanned and the election results are certified.

I won't have to worry about my kidneys or any other body part being threatened by the Bev Harris Gang because I'll be doing something productive instead of staging publicity stunts for the press and cameras.

I don't need chimpanzee's, I'll have an attorney by my side and the evidence we need to shut down the computers before the end of the day.

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endnote Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #115
141. I sure heard her buddy talk about how much money they'd be making
you know, the "bounty hunter" guy?
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #141
143. "Her Buddy" is not Her
Now is it? Point to one post where Bev has said SHE will be making a pot of money...and I will conceed the point. Otherwise your hotair is wasted. Oh and BTW I am going to ignore you now as I have far more important things to work on than responding to your drivel.

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endnote Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #143
148. She definitely said that Qui Tam money would not hurt.
And why did you quit your SOS bid, after making a big deal of it and asking for money for your campaign on DU and elsewhere ? Something smells very fishy here. Thanks for ignoring me.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #148
161. I feel sorry for Andy
since I know that one day he is destined to learn first hand of Bev's treachery.

David Allen
Publisher, CEO, Janitor
Plan Nine Publishing
http://www.plan9.org
http://www.blackboxvoting.com
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endnote Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #161
163. I agree with you on this too, I'm afraid...
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #115
167. Let's see
the proceeds go to the "foundation" of which she is the only employee. Six of one, half dozen of the other.

The foundation was created for the sole purpose of giving Bev cover for the "qui tam" and no other reason.

David Allen
Publisher, CEO, Janitor
Plan Nine Publishing
http://www.plan9.org
http://www.blackboxvoting.com
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endnote Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #167
175. Bingo!
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maxudargo Donating Member (306 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 12:49 AM
Response to Original message
119. If I understand what you're saying, the concern should be this:
On November 3, John Kerry has won by wide margins, wider margins than any of the pre-election polls indicated. Everyone is surprised by the vote tallies coming in. Happy Democrats attribute his success to their unprecedented GOTV efforts.

Then, the Republicans uncover evidence that crackers have exploited vulnerabilities and compromised vote tallies. They present evidence the successful cracks were used to exaggerate Kerry's votes. They show reporters selected quotes from this thread and others. Kerry's victory is challenged. Now it is the Republicans saying the Democrats stole the election.

I guarantee you every cracker in the world would love to see this scenario unfold, even if they are Kerry supporters. It is the kind of scenario that feeds their collective ego and confirms their sense of being superior and uniquely powerful. Nothing is more important to a cracker than that. Absolutely nothing.

White-hat crackers may have done work to expose vulnerabilities leading up to the election, but the thing is, there is really no such thing as a white-hat cracker. They won't stop. Every vulnerability they helped close only sets up the next challenge. This is what Bev Harris is learning now, it appears.

These crackers are chomping at the bit to crack servers on Election Day. That is what will really feed their monkey. Having an impact on a presidential election - and sending the world outside into chaos - is a cracker wet dream. There's nothing anybody can do to stop them.

Except turn off the damn modems. That will stop them dead. If the computer cannot be accessed over a phone line, they are completely powerless.

No, that doesn't mean we have eliminated all the problems with electronic voting, it just means we've eliminated one.
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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #119
123. There you go. Modem gone, all that's left is inside access
Except turn off the damn modems. That will stop them dead. If the computer cannot be accessed over a phone line, they are completely powerless.

And all it means is it will take one hour more to count the vote. It's worth it, don't you think?

Bev
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maxudargo Donating Member (306 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #123
125. Absolutely.
Exposing the machines to the whims of crackers is insane. Good crackers are inherently anti-social, and anybody who thinks they will do us any good are simply unfamiliar with the type. They have no interest in November 2 turning out good for anybody. Chaos, and the smug knowledge that they are the source of it, is always their deepest desire.
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bearfan454 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #123
149. Hell yes it is worth it.
Our country and Democracy are well worth it.
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RedEagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #119
133. Ummm...wouldn't turning off the modems be part and parcel of....
....homeland (I hate that word) security?

I mean, for secure elections in these troubled times, shouldn't this be a nationwide mandate?

Ya think?

Governors might be able to pull that off.

A state supreme court?
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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 02:19 AM
Response to Reply #133
134. Woh. Good point, Red.
Outstanding. We'll get on that one right away. That ties in with some other Homeland-securityish actions we're taking tomorrow.

Thought I'd let you know that the security folks agreed exactly with the input given by your significant other regarding the modems timing out.

I'll call you tomorrow. Or maybe you call me. It's getting a little insane around the office, with people coming and going and phone calls and so forth.

Bev
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RedEagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 02:38 AM
Response to Reply #134
135. It would be a win-win for state officials
Make'em look like they are taking the appropriate precautions- which they would be.

I mean, if we really had terrorist cells or types in the country, that would be the means to disrupt elections- not a physical attack.

You identify a risk, then mitigate it.

It's not the only one, heavens knows, but it's one negated.

OK, now I've got to get some sleep, I'm beginning to wonder about all those "election threats" that were pushed a while back....

:eyes:
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sufi Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 05:52 AM
Response to Reply #135
136. Thanks, Bev
Thanks, Bev, for alerting us. We will be diligent on Tuesday
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #119
137. Max, you left out one step
What about getting totals from the individual GEMS servers to the Central Count center?

As usual, Ms. Harris is leaving out important information because it harms her theory.

No one sees the results from GEMS servers until they get to the Central Count center unless you are physically at the GEMS server.

So, how does Key West, Florida (just an example) get the results you see on television from there to Jacksonville, Florida?

And, this bunk about the police don't move that quickly is an excuse to keep your eye off the real issue - if Ms. Harris had any evidence, with all the press about this election, the authorities would turn these modems off in a heartbeat.

You note, she hasn't bothered to answer the question about when and where this has been reported to the authorities.
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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #137
140. answers to bored's questions
Edited on Mon Nov-01-04 09:31 AM by BevHarris
Wow. The above post is either uninformed or a diversion altogether, because it makes no sense.

What about getting totals from the individual GEMS servers to the Central Count center?

Define your terms. After receiving over a thousand public records requests, I can tell you that the term "central count" center has various meanings depending on what county you are in, what state you are in, and what vendor you use. Then I'll answer it.

The short answer is that it depends on the setup the county uses. Here's one example in one of the counties I've been looking at:

- The facility they call the "central count" facility is a warehouse where they count absentee ballots. It has its own GEMS server.

- The county elections office has the other GEMS server, and the polling places modem in only to the county elections office server.

- They only have one server turned on at any given time. They use only a single file for the election, transferring it physically from the absentee ballot counting GEMS machine to the county GEMS machine, and then back again after all polling place results are in.

Therefore, "getting totals from the GEMS servers to the central count center" is not relevant in this setup. The only modem hookup is at the county headquarters. After the disk with the election results leaves the county elections office and travels to the absentee ballot facility, no further tampering by modem can occur. With this particular setup, the votes at risk are those cast at the polling place, and to a lesser extent, those absentee ballots counted early.

Of course, there are many other ways to attack the system. This thread isn't about cataloging all the various attack methods, but is about a simple solution to one of the significant attacks, attacking the GEMS server through the modem.

No one sees the results from GEMS servers until they get to the Central Count center unless you are physically at the GEMS server.

Not true, if the GEMS server is connected to anything by modem or network.

I've traveled through 18 states and have seen the GEMS servers. The modems hook directly into them, through a DigiBoard in most cases. So the assumption that no one sees the results assumes that no one has hacked into the computer by modem. Most counties tell us they do not have their GEMS server networked to anything, but the Sequoia version is sometimes networked. If the central vote tally computer is networked, you cannot assume no one has seen the results.

So, how does Key West, Florida (just an example) get the results you see on television from there to Jacksonville, Florida?

Why would they need to?

And, this bunk about the police don't move that quickly is an excuse to keep your eye off the real issue - if Ms. Harris had any evidence, with all the press about this election, the authorities would turn these modems off in a heartbeat.

We are seeing some modems being turned off as we speak. I believe you'll see more turned off today and tomorrow.

You note, she hasn't bothered to answer the question about when and where this has been reported to the authorities.

That is correct. It is multiple reports across four different jurisdictions (city, county, state, fed). In fact, doing these reports is using up my morning, and I have an extremely congested schedule. It is appropriate to let law enforcement have a moment to do their thing before telling hackers which jurisdictions we reported this. Why give criminals a heads up as to who law enforcement will be looking for?

Folks, we need to disconnect the modems. There is no real down side, won't take much longer to count the votes, and it stops one attack vector cold.

Bev Harris
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #140
145. More BS
Amazing.

So, you're trying to tell us that state elections results go to the national press from each individual county in each individual state? Sure you are.......

As for your reports giving the "hackers" a heads up, I thought that's exactly what your original post was all about - stopping these hackers you called for.

You do need to get on that busy schedule before your BS comes apart completely. You're not doing yourself any favors on DU.

And, once again, let's see those server logs from your alleged web site hack.

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m berst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #145
150. not credible
You accuse the original poster of a covert agenda, yet your posts suggest that it is you with the covert agenda.

Example -

"As for your reports giving the "hackers" a heads up, I thought that's exactly what your original post was all about - stopping these hackers you called for."

You continue to inject this into the discussion, yet it is unwarranted and irrelevant if based on what has been posted here. I can't believe that you are inadvertently doing this, as you continue to slip it in out of context. There is an enormous difference between calling for computer experts to test the security of a system and hacking an actual election, and calling for the one and warning against the second is not inconsistent. You may know something that you aren't sharing with the rest of us, but what you keep saying is that the original poster is contradicting herself and that is patently false.

There is an enormous and clear difference between asking experts to test the crashworthiness of an automobile in a controlled environment, and telling people to take the automobile out on the freeway and jumping the medium at 80 mph into oncoming traffic. No one would be accused of inconsistency were they to recommend the former and warn against the latter.

The fact that you keep insinuating this unsupported and confusing line of attack into the conversation renders the rest of your testimony highly suspect.
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #150
152. Do a search on Ms. Harris' posts on DU
She's called for the hacking of an election in multiple venues, including right here on DU.

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m berst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #152
153. you made the charge
Cite examples. I am not intending to give you a hard time. If you have something I would like to see it. My comments are not intended to challenge your charges, rather to point out that you have not supported them here. Support them or don't make them. Don't tell me to go out and do research to support your charges.
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #152
154. That is BULLSHIT!
Back that statement up!

Links to posts.


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RedEagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #140
146. Disconnect rather than turn off, I hope, unless it's the same thing.
I'd like to see the infiltration mechanism completely disconnected from the system.

Is there any way to "wake up" a modem from outside the system, if it is not physically disconnected?

(As you can see, my SO expert is not available at the moment)

I wonder if the police can work with the phone company to come up with a record of incoming calls- or attempts to call in?

If the Clean Up Crew can monitor any modem activity, especially when it's no longer supposed to happen.... At that point, any election official who denies access to observation of that kind is skating on very thin ice.

Running the vote totals in is doable and a prudent safety precaution. All the rules for ballot boxes apply.

Sigh....sometimes you almost think they "want" this kind of trouble. Who would benefit from that? The encryption solution gang?

I've got a question also, about all the ballot problems seen across the country with printing, delivery, etc. Is this amount of trouble relatively new or just something we now see reported? Kind of like the problems with e-voting and computer computation- it was there and reported locally but no one had done the research to discover it was a huge, nation wide problem until you did.

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cap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #140
147. bev is correct...
turn off the modems...

uninstall the modem drivers so there is absolutely no way to transmit on these modems. If you want to be absolutely sure, delete the modem driver.

Top Secret systems do these sorts of things. Why can't our election machines run with the same security that we use for the military? Isn't our democracy as precious?
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #119
151. Hmmmm... Are we speaking from experience???
"...here is really no such thing as a white-hat cracker. They won't stop. Every vulnerability they helped close only sets up the next challenge..."

Personally, I think the system was designed from the ground up to be broken. Different localities had their own traditional ways of "fixing" the vote that wouldn't be possible using electronic voting systems that actually worked. So the private voting machine companies listened to their customers' concerns and created machines that could be used to automate many traditional vote "fixing" processes.

Anyways, the "crackers" you speak of, white hat or black hat, are simply noise. Yes, they break things and cause confusion, but electronic voting machine systems should have been built like fortresses from the ground up, and they weren't. They have all the stregnth of driftwood and sand castles built on the beach.

Do we blame the waves when they knock our sand castles down?

I believe very strongly in hand counted pen and paper elections. Adding higher technology to the election process simply increases the vulnerabilities. If computers are not used to collect, count, and audit the vote, then the computer "cracker" has no power.

Changing the subject, lately I have found it very difficult to post on the BBV issue in ways that clear the air. I think at this point I'm pretty much left praying that the election tommorrow will not be a bloody disaster. Everyone who as been active in this issue probably has dozens of scenarios, such as the one maxudargo posted above, spinning through their heads.

Let's be careful out there, and let's not scare any voters away, especially first time voters. Do no harm, and keep the atmosphere positive.




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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 04:10 PM
Response to Original message
155. Very curious here - if modems are not turned off, do lawsuits follow?
What am I thinking here...

BlackBox calls for modems being disconnected.
No one pays attention.
Modems are not turned off.
Kerry wins.
Suddenly people pay attention.
Lawsuits galore follow.

I guess I'm just paranoid.

Back to work!
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 07:57 PM
Response to Original message
170. Let's see...Bev and Andy make a Hail Mary attempt to shut off...
an obvious source of election chicanery (one that we were assured didn't exist) and suddenly a raft of posters show up to discredit her with ad hominem attacks...

Why do I think the fix is in? :think:
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #170
171. Oh please...
As I explained in times past, I have absolutely NO intention of standing by and watching Bev "revise" history, especially when she is once again smearing me and others.

And spare me the "if you really cared about democracy you'd shut up". I've answered that BS before as well.

Your hero has been caught in a number of lies and we are the bad guys for pointing out the lies.

The list of people who have called Bev on her falsehoods grows longer as time goes on. Hell, even Alastair, the man chiefly responsible for this whole story getting out in the first place has called her to account for her baseless attacks. (I now wait for Bev to claim that Scoop had little to do with this story getting attention).

David Allen
Publisher, CEO, Janitor
Plan Nine Publishing
http://www.plan9.org
http://www.blackboxvoting.com
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endnote Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #171
173. Exactly. Bev has isolated herself at this point. She hurts the cause.
Edited on Mon Nov-01-04 08:39 PM by endnote
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #173
180. That she has done
Bev complains about people "running the other way from the problem". If I had to hazard a guess, I would say they are running from her, since her charming way of dealing with folks who disagree with her.

David Allen
Publisher, CEO, Janitor
Plan Nine Publishing
http://www.plan9.org
http://www.blackboxvoting.com
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nodehopper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #173
181. isolated herself from whom? you and other ignoramuses like you?
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endnote Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #181
183. From the honest people she exploited to get her publicity raids.
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nodehopper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #183
186. I can't believe it's less than 24 hours to election day
And you guys have NOTHING better to do than rehash your sour grapes on here. Wow, that actually blows my mind more than anything else. The single most important election in US history is taking place tomorrow and all you can do is spew nasty venom against somebody who has done so much to ensure that it is fair. Yeah, I know what you are going to say, other people worked at it too, and yes, they did, but the fact is, you are sitting here and engaging in ad hominums as if THAT is the important thing right now.
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #186
187. I'm listening to my spiders...
What's nodehopper doing?
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nodehopper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-02-04 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #187
210. Not settling my personal scores, that's for sure
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #186
192. So, let me get this straight...
She gets on DU and begins distorting the record, making false claims about her work on this and discussing her plans to sue me and I am just supposed to take it? After all, she's Saint Bev and whatever she says is beyond criticism. If I or anyone else defend ourselves and provide factual refutation to her claims, we are somehow bringing down democracy.

Ironically, it is the very same "logic" used by Diebold to defend itself from critics. When we point out their lies, distortions and evasions, *WE* are accused of "undermining democracy".

You know, it's easy to be all holy and above the fray, when it is not YOUR reputation being trashed or your work being lied about.
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endnote Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-02-04 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #192
199. Well said David. Al I can say is that there is a growing anti-Bev movement
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #170
172. Oh please, make it stop!
This is a mess. My best wish is that Kerry wins by a landslide, no questions. After that maybe I can get some sleep and figure out just what the hell is happening here.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #172
177. In that, my fellow American
Edited on Mon Nov-01-04 08:55 PM by plan9_pub
we are in COMPLETE agreemnt. I want to see Kerry with a Nickelodian victory (57%/43% Kerry).

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/10/20/campaign.kids... /

David Allen
Publisher, CEO, Janitor
Plan Nine Publishing
http://www.plan9.org
http://www.blackboxvoting.com
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #170
176. Description of Ad Hominem
Translated from Latin to English, "Ad Hominem" means "against the man" or "against the person."

An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. Typically, this fallacy involves two steps. First, an attack against the character of person making the claim, her circumstances, or her actions is made (or the character, circumstances, or actions of the person reporting the claim). Second, this attack is taken to be evidence against the claim or argument the person in question is making (or presenting). This type of "argument" has the following form:


Person A makes claim X.
Person B makes an attack on person A.
Therefore A's claim is false.
The reason why an Ad Hominem (of any kind) is a fallacy is that the character, circumstances, or actions of a person do not (in most cases) have a bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made (or the quality of the argument being made).

Example of Ad Hominem

Bill: "I believe that abortion is morally wrong."
Dave: "Of course you would say that, you're a priest."
Bill: "What about the arguments I gave to support my position?"
Dave: "Those don't count. Like I said, you're a priest, so you have to say that abortion is wrong. Further, you are just a lackey to the Pope, so I can't believe what you say."

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.htm...
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #176
178. Since I am mostly a left wing Catholic that explains a lot!
This is a cheap kick...

:kick:
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #176
179. Since you haven't noticed
we have show on numerous occasions that Bev's claims were false. On this particular topic (modems) a person with technical experience disputes Bev's claims. Bev (who has NO technical experience, believe me) cites unnamed "experts" to support her view. Sadly, none of them post here.

Someone mentions my name, Bev engages in complete fabrications about topics I (and others) know about personally. I correct the record and cite evidence to back up my contentions.

Factual evidence is being presented to correct distortions and outright fabrications. The truth is not an ad-hominem attack.

Bev: Claim A
David: Refutes claim A and provides evidence for the refutation.
Junkdrawer: You're engaging in ad-hominem attacks on Bev.

Bev's claims are all about credibility, thus Bev's truthfulness is a VERY important issue. Since there is overwhelming evidence to impeach her credibility (falsely attacked allies, denied same, distorts other's contribution to her work in order to grab credit and smear other people, etc) you have to then wonder about a lot of what she claims and how she is damaging our efforts to stop BBV.
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endnote Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #179
182. In this case, I agree, it is NOT an ad hominem attack.
Bev's truthfulness IS a very important issue.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #182
184. I see...RAS modem connections aren't subject to buffer overrun attacks...
because Bev is a liar... Got it.
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-02-04 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #184
218. No, you're conflating issues
the "Bev is a liar" argument (YOUR words, not ones I'd have chosen), is a distinct and separate issue. SOME people are arguing some of Bev's technical points, but those arguments have NOT been based on her credibility or lack of it.

Need I point out that it's not particularly helpful to conflate issues that are essentially separate and have been made separately?
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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #170
190. Listen up Junk, I have nothing to do with any of these people
I walked into this soap opera by accident...however, I find it fascinating.

Many people are well aware of my recent contributions on DU, concerning scams against seniors, and how they tie into Bush and the CNP. I have an interest in voting machine companies because I believe that fixing the vote is part of the way neo-con fascists will completely take over this country, just like the fact they've taken over most TV news media.

I need to learn more about all this - but this soap opera is like a good book that you can't put down.

John
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WLKjr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 10:40 PM
Response to Original message
193. OMFG! RAS WINDOWS SERVERS????? UNPATCHED!?!?!?!?!?
WTF ARE THEY THINKING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-01-04 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #193
197. mmmmmhm. Thank you.
Edited on Tue Nov-02-04 12:01 AM by BevHarris
The security experts who were here in the wee hours had that same reaction. I didn't bring them to DU. Instead I brought them to speak with a detective. He had the same reaction.

But you folks already know the name of one of the security experts I work with. Dr. Herbert Thompson, who is currently on a plane to Barcelona, where he is a keynote speaker at the world RSA conference.

Check out the video at http://www.votergate.tv -- Dr. Thompson is a hoot. And by the way, he was so disgusted at the GEMS program, which he gave an "F" that it was he who suggested teaching a monkey to hack it.

Bev
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-02-04 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #197
201. That poor monkey, he's going to jail!
To quote Bev:

"If someone tries to make a hero of themselves through hacking, demand answers about when they knew about this, and why they didn't take it public in a timely manner. And I personally will assist in putting them in prison."






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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-02-04 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #201
202. He didn't hack an election
Edited on Tue Nov-02-04 02:00 AM by BevHarris
when he deleted audit log entries, it was just a sample program in a controlled environment.

When 3 hours was deleted from the King County audit log during a live election, that's hacking, and by the way, where is Agent Mike on that one?

There is no excuse for hacking an election. It is becoming clear through a number of pipelines that some misguided "activist hacking" is in the works. And I keep seeing the word "chaos" thrown around like it is some kind of solution.

No way.

Bev
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-02-04 02:40 AM
Response to Reply #202
203. Chaos is not a solution.
Especially if this election is close. On the eve of this election I honestly don't know what to do, except to watch for trouble. Obviously I am not sleeping...

I do think if there is chaos, and a close election, the advantage goes to Bush. We saw that before in 2000, and much of that chaos was manufactured.

My "monkey" post immediately above was mostly a cheap kick, a bit of dark humor. (I removed references to Oz and flying monkeys before I posted.)

The time bomb is ticking, this nightmare is about to begin, or it is about to end.

Next week I want Kerry to be safely elected, and I want some quiet time to discover exactly what this electronic voting machine mess was all about. (Hmmmm... Maybe you can write a book about it, Bev...)

If Bush is re-elected, I won't have any quiet time. I'll be fighting.
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yowzayowzayowza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-02-04 03:35 AM
Response to Original message
204. If and only ...
Edited on Tue Nov-02-04 03:42 AM by yowzayowzayowza
***IF*** I knew the specific information to hack the election was readily available including

a. dialup phone number of the tabulation computer,
b. login Password & User ID, and
c. RAS buffer-overflow exploit methodology

I would ANONYMOUSLY

a. post the information on several newsgroups,
b. add a list of other exposed sites, and
c. send an email to every media addy I could find

thus

a. forcing election officials to react,
b. providing grounds for candidates to contest the totals, and
c. clearing my conscience.

Then I'd

a. order a pizza,
b. man the ottoman, and
c. observe the fireworks.

But, thatz just me. Sunlight is a wonderful disinfectant.
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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-02-04 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #204
205. If you knew such information, you should not sit on it
It should have been exposed as soon as you had it, so that actions could be taken to mitigate the risks.

Waiting until Election Day, in order to melt down the election, is not an ethical choice.

Bev
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yowzayowzayowza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-02-04 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #205
206. I gathered from your posts that...
such info was running around. Yes?

...thousands of poll workers running around with sensitive phone numbers, ... you use default passwords and usernames which were sitting on the Internet for 6 years

Without a UserId/Password and dialup access number the RAS buffer-overflow bug cannot be exploited.
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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-02-04 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #206
212. User ID / Password information was also placed on the Internet
Edited on Tue Nov-02-04 10:10 AM by BevHarris
And answers to our public records requests about how often these are changed was pretty shocking. Like, "huh?" and "we don't have to change them, it's secure" and other nonsensical answers.

Like the 1111 password that Diebold hard-coded in, the username and password information is easily guessed or cracked, and this stuff is often set up using defaults that were published and then never changed.

Most county officials are completely clueless, and even the large counties often have no security people on staff to look over the setups -- and, of course, county computer people aren't allowed to examine the software either.

It's wide open and there are several who have set themselves up as computer "experts" who knew this but did not make the public aware of the risks, instead is that?

Disconnecting the modems would eliminate risk of outside access and limit problems to inside access, still a significant risk but not as nuts as permitting remote access.

Yes, it certainly occurs to me that an FBI "sting" is in place, and that agents decided to leave security holes there rather than notifying county officials to disconnect modems. That's their business.

Our business, at Black Box Voting (.ORG) is to protect elections as proactively as possible, so we are recommending disconnecting the modems.

Bev
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endnote Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-02-04 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #205
208. "Ethical Choice"? You cannot preach on that, I think...
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-02-04 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #208
219. What I find extremely troubling about this whole discussion
(aside from the obvious you point out, of course), is this: Bev is herself an Independent, or at least has been in the past (who knows what she is today). She has come onto DU to insinutate that she KNOWS about a conspiracy of left-leaning activists to hack this election -- somewhere, somehow. So far AFIC she has presented ZERO support of any kind for her insinuations -- they're just raw allegations. For all we know, it could be her paranoia on the march again.

Unfortunately, I and several others have been down THIS road before, only the subject wasn't hacking an election. But Bev was as wrong then as she could be (and once again, the person actually doing what she alleged others were "guilty" of was Bev herself).

My fear is that some innocent people might get caught up in some nasty stuff as a result of these so far -- certainly as laid out here -- completely baseless accusations. It got plenty nasty last time innocent people were wrongly accused, but at least it was mostly just bickering on an internet board. This time it could be far worse.

Fortunately, II'm not a programmer and ought to have precious little to fear since I don't even know enough about Windows to get some of the useless garbage out of my SysTray without outside intervention. But even that wouldn't initially protect me (or other innocent bystanders who may have crossed Bev in the past and who are now on her list of "suspects") of being royally hassled and perhaps even held without benefit of due process under the Patriot Act.

These are very serious charges. I hope they aren't being irresponsibly tossed around, and I hope that the charges alone (with or without any basis in fact) don't give the Republicans anything with which to hassle individual Democrats or to base an election challenge on. They make up stuff too, routinely, and all they really need is a good idea to run with.

If there ARE actual hackers who are contemplating or planning something, I certainly condemn it utterly. But at this point, I haven't seen anything to make me think this is something to actually be concerned about for this election.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-02-04 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
211. Assuming that the "unthinkable" happens, who will lead?
*IF* this election is stolen, who will lead the effort to reform the process?

Now, it has been said that leading Democrats is like herding cats, but if there is no clear leadership, will the theft fade into a grumbled "for the good of the country.." type acquiescence like 2000 and 2002?

Perhaps, just perhaps, *someone* wants to make sure we have no leaders. :tinfoilhat:
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endnote Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-02-04 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #211
214. Not so subtle ad hominem attack, Junk... Perhaps....
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-02-04 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #214
215. So..pointing out the *possible* motives of someone who engages...
in an ad hominem attack is, in fact, an ad hominem attack.

My head hurts... :evilgrin:
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endnote Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-02-04 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #215
216. LOL....
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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-02-04 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
217. It's election night - and no update all day on anti-modems campaign
I expected to see some sort of update by now on how the campaign to turn off modems was going.

However, perhaps people are so busy, they haven't had time to report on it.
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-04 05:11 AM
Response to Reply #217
221. There may have been a sting.
Folks, I've done investigative writing before, and this is the fourth time I've submitted information to law enforcement, and the third time to the FBI.

They never tell you what they're doing, or what leads they are investigating. You just report the thing, answer questions, sometimes repeatedly, and then you never hear from them again. A year later, you find out one of the people was arrested.

I got the clear impression yesterday that they would not recommend modems be turned off. Some of the questions were unusual for the typical FBI investigation, and I couldn't get a read on where they were going with it. When I asked if he was going to get the word out to disconnect modems, he said something like "I think I'm going to take this in a different direction.

That could mean just about anything. There were a couple other questions that made me wonder if a sting operation might be in play, with Black Box Voting inadvertently mucking around in it. Or, it could mean something else.

By the way, it is way too early to call the election. Damage gets done when people hurry along before any auditing takes place. We blanketed the country with very specific public records requests tonight, and will have much more information soon with which we can evaluate signs of electoral fraud.

The records requests went out to all counties in the U.S. that have computerized voting machines from any vendor. We'll match them up against other information to see what we can learn.

Bev
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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-04 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #221
222. Something is clearly wrong
Right now, I'm mad as hell.
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-04 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #222
223. If you want to rig an election, but are facing a battalion of lawyers
you rig it big.

That's the most likely way to shut the lawyers up without a fight. In law, there is a principle called "actual harm." If you have a valid case, but it "wouldn't have made any difference," you don't have a case, because you can't demonstrate harm.

And this is Bev, by the way -- one of my posts was under God_Bush_n_Cheney, because I think he was signed in under me.


Bev Harris
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