Poll question: What do you think of the US breaking up?
As we face the ravages of the Bush administration and the starkness of our electoral map, it's impossible for me not to think about the eventual dissolution of the United States.
What do you think? How committed are you to the Union? Are big countries becoming a bad idea? Do you think breakup is inevitable, or do you think the US can last another hundred years or more with its current borders? What do you put first, your neighborhood, town, state, region, nation, continent, or planet?
There are more possibilities than poll choices, so I'll just put it this way: What do you think of the US breaking up?
I've been hoping some of us Great Lakes states could join Canada, too.
I really do think Wisconsin is a good candidate for a new Canadian province. We got beer, cheese, lots of kids already play hockey, a couple of decent sea ports on the Lakes, and Milwaukeeans already have most of the accent down pat. We also have a few thousand skilled tool and die makers looking for something to do.
Back in the 1880s a fellow named Ashford was out here trying to sell the then-independent Kingdom of Hawai'i on the advantages of joining the fledgling Confederation, rather than be inevitably swallowed up by the U.S., which took one further decade and a detachment of marines.
Not only would we have been the only warm-weather province (sorry B.C. :-) ), but our present-day population of 1.2 mln would be roughly equivalent to that of Manitoba, rather than placing us near the bottom of U.S. states.
We already have an Ontario Hockey League franchise and three Tim Horton doughnut shops. We're closer to the Canadian border (100m/160km to either Sarnia or Windsor) than we are to Toledo, Ohio (about 120m/192km). And, if it wasn't for the simplification of the international border at the Treaty of Paris in 1783 (the parties just drew the line through the middle of lakes Ontario, Erie, Huron and Superior), we could theoretically be a province today. I know all the words to "Oh, Canada" and belt it out at hockey games. My great-grandfather Seaman came to the US from Saskatchewan in 1898 to fight the Spanish down in Cuba. He never got closer to them than Tampa, but that's another story. John Who also has both Tory (dad's side, above) and Confederate (mom's side) ancestors. The idea of secession isn't as scary to me as it might be to others. I say "go for it."
86. Yeah, some "Yoopers" here in Michigan have considered that
Breaking off from us trolls (those who live "under the (Mackinac) bridge" in the Lower Peninsula) and forming the state of Superior. Two problems: not enough population and not self-sufficient. John As I recall, Texas has the right under the terms of the agreement which brought them into the Union to unilaterally split into up to five states (that is, without needing permission from Washington). I've never decided whether that would be a good or a bad thing.
aren't looking beyond politics to the impending climate disasters. Mother nature may easily make it happen for us, first of all inundating all our coastal cities. And then there are the more sudden diasaster possibilities--that big shelf of rock in the Canary Islands causing a tidal wave that will wipe out the east coast; the super volcano in Yellowstone erupting; etc. Any of these events could spell the end of the US. The volcano most certainly would do so.
5. The U.S. is already divided by class and now that Bush has....
...moved toward exempting the wealthy from paying their fair share of taxes, the economic separation in the country has begun has well. I would hate to see the United States dissolve into multiple nation states, because that would mean endless war like we saw in Europe.
... more like the european union, where some countries are not members, like norway and switzerland.
After the federal goes bankrupt, and collapses in soviet-style stupidity, the states will be on their own.
Then i think it makes sense to have nation states that are more in keeping with the culture. 6 nations:
1. southern california, arizona, nevada, utah (colorado river drainage basin) - this'll keep the water rights argument inside the same body that has the power to sort things out. Capital city: Bakersfield.. :-D
The opinions on economics alone are so polarized, that we can't keep going like this. It's just so up and down, there is no middle ground in the long term. But even after we break up into however many new countries, we'll end up fighting each other anyway. Say Texas, led by DeLay, was it's own country. They'll be first in line for war with LiberElitania.
8. I Think the US Should Have Broken Up in the 1860s
meaning Lincoln should have allowed the South to secede.
For that matter, I think slavery was an important enough issue to prevent the 13 colonies from forming one country. It should have two from the very beginning. Slavery and race has poisoned the country so much that forming a single nation has not been worth it.
No disrespect to you long-suffering Southern progressives. I love y'all but I think Lincoln should have just said. "Go ahead. Leave us!". We would be far more progressive then we are now.
There are a lot of people down South who don't have their own best interests at heart. Mike Malloy is right when he mentioned that there are a lot of people in the South who are so backward, and ignorant that the right-wing wackos at the RNC and the fundamentalist Christians "use" the Bubbas and brainwash them into thinking they are righteous and must hate gays, pro-choice people, liberals, and those who are not "right with God". It is sad. It really is. Once again, please do not take it the wrong way when I say this. But maybe the South should have stayed it's own country.
96. And now, lots of southerners have moved to other states...
...and spread the hate. My parents were from the vicinity of Springfield, Missouri. For the last few years, my mother has been returning to Springfield every year. Perhaps she should just stay there? The politics are more up her ally, anyway.
101. The worst of Southern culture is spreading too.
NASCAR, Wal-Mart, Pick-Up Trucks, Fundamental Christianity, Britney Spears.... Gawd. If anybody has read Michael Moore's "Stupid White Men"? There is a part of that book where he mentions that the South is probably winning after 140 years. He mentions some of the stuff I had listed.
A lot of people would be pissed at him for dissing the South, but I think he had a valid point. I know what my family is like, for chrissakes. And just think, had I been raised in the South, I would never have escaped that mindset.
Slavery would have ended anyways, as a backward confederate states of america struggled to compete with the industrialized north. Then states rights would be such that we would not be in this overly centrallized federal problem of today.
This whole problem of the new bush south, is the karma of the civil war come back to haunt those who think that using force works.
by moving down here. All the really cool places have folks running up property prices and turning us into NJ lite.
Cary NC is a prime example of the end effect, so are the Outer Banks, and Appalachian mountains. Perfectly nice places fucked into cocked hat. Someone can sell a shitty house on Long Island for 400k and move down here and get fleeced on real estate. Thus driving up the cost of property.
It is like cancer, they send a few tendrils in and then colonize an area..
If Bush gets re-elected, the dollar will collapse because our various deficits (budget, trade & current account) are so freakin' high that nobody will want to invest here... we suffer through serious deflation and another Depression, or near-Depression. The Euro becomes the world's standard transaction currency and the Chinese either tie their yuan to the Euro or let it float (either way, no longer tied to the dollar...)
From there, China & Japan buy up huge swaths of land & property in our country, particularly the West Coast, with maybe the EU investing in New England because of the generally more educated workforce. The northeast (New England, NYC, north Jersey & eastern PA) becomes an independent nation, as does California, Oregon & Washington out West. Maybe a few northern states attempt to join Canada. The rest becomes a Christian fundamentalist nation...
The ultimate form of politics is what's happening in Iraq right now. Your fundie nation has large black-majority areas (including rural areas) that are not going to go quietly back into plantation days. Likewise, the west and particularly the northwest is home to our best-prepared secessionists, an army of white nazi crank-cooking guerrillas. Canada can't hold Quebec without US stability. I think what happens where will be less like the electoral map than you seem to suggest. I just hope that I end up in the American Ukraine, and the Repugs get left with their American Chechnya.
14. I want to live in a looooong skinny country like Chile
We'll call it "Pacifica," and those of us who live in the coastal range from the Canadian border on down to Tijuana will live in bliss, hugging trees, eating tofu, wearing hemp, and frolicking on the beach safe from our inland former countrymen.
the states of Oregon and Washington form the nucleus of country. We would leave the door open for British Columbia and the Northern counties of Calfornia. Any county north of Mount Lassen could join Cascadia as a separate state. I do not think it would be a good idea to make the Bay Area part of it. It is too Californian.
117. Having lived in the Seattle area most of my life
... and then moved to the Bay Area a little while ago, I would say that the Bay Area of California has a culture more like that found in the Pac NW than areas like Redding in the North (red-necks, hicks, fundies) or L.A. in the South (superficial and annoying).
I wouldn't want the state to join Canada as the first poster suggested (or New York either, unless we could keep out the southern part). Vermont was an independent republic for ten years after the revolution and I sometimes think the biggest mistake we ever made was to join the rest of the rabble!
Seriously, I wouldn't like to see it happen but I do wonder about it. I'm not sure how workable it would be - much would depend on how it was divided.
I think big countries can succeed - they just need to be run properly. Rather than trying to become a global empire, I would rather we try to be a global example of a country that does the right thing by its people and by the other countries of the world. And I refuse to believe that its too late to do that.
I love it here but I miss home. I need to go back about once a year for a fix. We plan on going back eventually too but probably not for another couple of years. Job-wise it's tough - that's why I ended up here.
29. To anyone interested in the topic, I recommend "A Pattern Language"...
It's a very wide ranging book, mainly on the subject of architecture: what works and why (there's a website too. I haven't investigated it yet). But it also talks about the natural size of cities and nations. The US is a pretty unnatural construct and should - following the laws of nature - be broken up.
One of my committee members told me to read that within a month of one of my drinking buddies (a really excellent photographer). It's always out of the library. Maybe that's a sign I should order it from Amazon.
41. But we're not the USSR,China or whatever country you want to bring up
I'm an American and that will be the day if I let people like you try to break up this country for no reason at all its not going to accomplish anything and as for your border comment every country has a "border" if you don't like America to have a border tough luck deal with it.
If you want US to stoop down to china's or Russia's level go live there
43. I don't understand where the hostility comes from
But you've answered my question by indicating that you believe in American exceptionalism.
I personally think we will reach "Russia or China's level" on the path we're taking now, and I hope Kerry can reverse it. But I also have trouble feeling patriotic about a bunch of land stolen from (some of) my own ancestors. And I think it might be smarter to pull back. The corollary to the territorial theory you subscribe to is that we must expand.
Places like Switzerland, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Portugal, etc, don't make the headlines nearly as much as the big guys. They just sit back, finance health care, welfare, the arts, etc, while the bullies stuff their jock straps with high-tech weaponry.
I would love to see the USA break up and say "Goodbye To All That".
But maybe the Freepers feel the same way? I mean, not feel that Scandinavia is cool, but that they'd be better off without "our" states. (Though probably their plan would be to invade us as soon as we broke off. "Extremist" economic policies would be the justification.)
It would be interesting someday to give a Freeper some calm-down drugs and see what he really thinks about this.
50. You are now leaving the FUSA. Welcome to Greater Europe.
The "F" stands for "Former".
As a pro-Union European, I'm finding this conversation a little dispiriting. The nations of Europe have far greater and more profound differences than the states of the US, and yet we are fumbling towards a union based on the ideal of the common good. Isn't that how the US was founded? Why slice up your country on the basis of politics, of all things? The current bitterness and polarisation will pass.
At university, I attended a debate on the future of the EU entitled "Beyond Enlargement". Heady times - the Eastern nations were all freshly liberated and eager to join. A couple of radicals argued that the "Europe" part of "European Union" should be extended to cover our sphere of influence, and that Russia (all of it) and the nations of North Africa should be invited in.
Then a Canadian shouted "and Quebec!" and they laughed and agreed - if it wanted to. So ... Leave one union, join another!
Sea to shining sea doesn't feel so good when people you don't understand at all are making decisions for you. How would you feel is a Berlusconi or Joerg Haider type had command over all European militaries?
I guess one other option is a looser confederation--I guess this is a warning to Europe not to tighten up so much, even if it is for just causes like civil rights.
65. And whats wrong with America besides the president?
Before you come up with your lame excuses let me just say every country has its faults but if you don't like America leave it we're not changing for contemptible separatists like yourself. I hope you people don't call yourself Democrats because you represent nothing of this party or America for that matter.
You flag-wavers seem to think there are countries all around the world dying to take Americans. Or maybe you think other countries, like us, fail to enforce their immigration laws.
If you want a list of what's wrong with America, here goes: 2 million incarcerated, economy on permanent downward turn, military and police increasing in power as democracy wanes, pollution out of control, global warming already causing catastrophic weather events, separatists "like me" of every political stripe hiding out in our vast territory, less linguistic and cultural cohesion every day, a total lack of notable national art or literature, and above all ... millions of people who are going to vote for Bush November 2.
I find this topic interesting because I am a student of geography, not because I want to secede from the union on any mass scale. But just to put your mind at ease, I am getting a doctorate (one of the few things that actually allows one to legally move to another country) and leaving within the year regardless of election results.
63. Robert E Lee put his state first. Woody Guthrie didn't
This land is your land, this land is my land From California to the New York Island, From the Redwood Forest, to the Gulf stream waters, This Land was Made for You & Me. As I went walking that ribbon of highway And saw above me that endless skyway, And saw below me the golden valley, I said: This Land was Made for You & Me.
I roamed and rambled and followed my footsteps To the sparkling sands of her diamond deserts, And all around me , a voice was sounding: This Land was Made for You & Me.
Was a high wall there that tried to stop me A sign was painted said: Private Property, But on the back side it didn't say nothing -- This Land was Made for You & Me.
When the sun come shining, then I was strolling In wheat fields waving and dust clouds rolling; The voice was chanting as the fog was lifting: This Land was Made for You & Me.
One bright sunny morning in the shadow of the steeple By the Relief Office I saw my people -- As they stood hungry, I stood there wondering if This Land was Made for You & Me.
75. Louisiana would be like S.C.. I think the USA could see a civil war
based on philosophical division. Those of us of liberal persuasion in the south would either have to leave or fight as Southerner's chose to stay home and fight in the first Civil war. This time the fight would not be North and South, but political philosophy.
thread in general, I would hope that no one here wants to see our country be dissolved into 50 separate countries. I can understand that right now our country is going in the wrong direction but this sort of thread just makes my blood boil. I would never want this country to break apart both of my grandfather's were in WWII and one of them was also in Korea they have fought for what makes this country great and it makes me sad to think that some in this country wouldn't want this country to be a country at all anymore.
And why does everyone always bring up wars and their grandfathers? I'm not bringing up my ancestors who were discriminated against, robbed, beaten and killed for their religion or ethnicity, because I'm not them.
This thread has to do with reality, not pride. I'm concerned about this and want a dialogue. Regardless of your emotions, do you believe this country can survive in its current structure for more than 100 years from now?
should work hard to change our country not dissolve it. We are going through a hard time right now, but eventually America will wake up. If this country was dissolved there would be nothing but numerous wars. We have a great constitution;we just have to continue our efforts to preserve it. Breaking up this nation is a very bad idea,imo. It's sad to see so many people willing to give up on this country.
106. Culture is the broad term that subsumes politics, economics...
technology, and even language. I was really responding to a bunch of people who want to pick up and run to Canada or else where simply because Kerry, our guy, is not at 60% and climbing. Were he, you wouldn't hear this talk. There are strong similarities between the originating form of government sited, i.e, centralization. I hope for an America 500 years from now that has realized its promise and is a responsible member of the world community.
When a country is so drunk with power and dominance, it eventually crumbles and usually happens on it's own corruption and arrogance. Why should America be any different? If you don't believe me, read your history books. Even the Roman Empire collapsed.
What I think may happen is the U.S. breaking up into regions that become their own countries (i.e. New England, Appalachia, Cascadia, etc...) and individual states like California, Texas, Hawaii becoming countries as well. If the U.S. does not change course soon, it will happen. The freightening thing is that it could happen through a civil war. I hope I am wrong. But things could get so bad that some states are going to just say "Oh the hell with this!".
120. Intriguingly, the three states you mention have all been countries
individual states like California, Texas, Hawaii becoming countries as well
and all three fly their former national flags as their state flags.
California's "Bear Flag Republic" was independent for one month in 1846; Texas' "Lone Star Republic" from 1836 to 1845.
The Kingdom of Hawai'i lasted from 1810, when Kamehameha I unified all the Hawaiian islands, to 1893, when Queen Lili'uokalani was deposed by a cabal of sugar growers backed by U.S. Marines. They founded a Republic of Hawai'i under Sanford B. Dole, which lasted until U.S. annexation in 1898, for a total of 88 years of unified independence (and, of course, centuries before that for each island individually).
91. Oregon and Washington could likely be among the first...
to breakaway. I still feel that the idea of a Cascadian Republic, a union between Oregon and Washington is a distinct possibility if things really get bad. The Cascadian National Party or at least the idea is still alive though dorment right now. I have always believed that Oregonians and Washingtonians, the people who are born and bred in this region have always been different from the rest of the country. This will never go away in matter how things change here. People will have to make a choice between going down with the Titanic (U.S.A.) or get on the raft and survive. Setting our own course. A foreign policy that believes in working with the world, not forcing upon the world. An enviromental policy that truly preserves the environment, universal health care, and direct democracy. Please feel free to look at the old CNP's policies. These are viable plans and can work. They will work in an independent Cascadia.
92. Other: Basically, I have no earthly idea, BUT --
one of my very strong intuitive feelings before the Iraq War was that it could and very well might be "the beginning of the end" for us, quite even as a nation.
I rather think that "the Union" won't dissolve, but I do think that the U.S. may be starting a long decline that we may not ever climb out of. Lord help us if some of our former meddle-ees become powerful enough to return the favors we've meted out over the past century or so.
Actually, I'm very hopeful about the future -- and no, that doesn't include or particularly stem from a possible Kerry administration. I believe that we are on the cusp of tremendous changes that may not be entirely comfortable and reassuring to endure, but that will bring about the complete collapse of the forces that have enslaved mankind (in one way or another), poisoned us, ruined our environment, etc., all for greed and profits. The getting there could be a little, um, "interesting," but I'm even hopeful about that, that it needn't be catastrophic.
First of all, it would be supreme irony that the Republican Party, which first made a name for itself by putting up a tireless fight to preserve the Union in the face of a series of Southern secessions, finally alienated certain regions enough that secession began to happen once again (and really, if a state were to secede, do you think it would be because of the Democratic Party?).
But second, and more importantly, the so-called red states typically receive more in Federal aid than they pay in taxes. Imagine a split among red- and blue-state regions of the country which set up (for the sake of argument) two distinct Federal governments. The blue would almost immediately begin operating in surplus, while the red would just as immediately face a revenue crisis that would quite likely force its government to slash services and raise taxes. In short, it would be a boon to the blue and devestating to the red. Would YOU be interested in reunification after the dust settled and tempers cooled?
111. Fix it. Don't break it. I love this country and this opinion held by
Edited on Wed Sep-29-04 08:27 PM by w4rma
some of my fellow DUers that it whould be broken up abhors me. It also stinks of defeatism, imho.
And not only that, it's extremely shortsighted.
And even more, this crap is probably part of the basis of the conservatives' hatred towards liberals (they think we are anti-American) and you guys walk right into that trap. And honestly, wishing that America would be broken up IS anti-American, imho.
Subject: Secession? Message: I find this entire thread to be very interesting. There has been some mild discussion for a while now about whether the northern half of Ohio ought to break away from the southern half and form a new state.
As it stands right now northern Ohio and southern Ohio have virtually nothing in common. The south, with the exception of Columbus and Cincinnati, is largely rural and extremely conservative. The north, with the exception of some counties to the northwest, is largely urban (Cleveland, Akron, Toledo and Youngstown) and liberal.
Southern republicans have a stranglehold on all three branches of state government, much to the detriment to those in the north. The southerners know that their policies hurt the northerners, but couldn't care less. The marble-mouths down south are likely to deliver this state for Bush in November and it makes a northerner like me sick to my stomach.
If there ever was a case to be made for a separation based on political and economic grounds it is here in Ohio. Bear in mind that there were a considerable number of Confederate sympathizers in Ohio's southern counties during the Civil War called "Copperheads". I'm afraid that this state, to this very day, is infested with snakes of similar stripe.
I'd love to see the northern counties secede. The question is: HOW?
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