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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 12:01 AM
Original message
November 22, 1963

November 22, 1963 is the day President John F. Kennedy died. He was proud to be a Liberal Democrat in the tradition of the Democratic Party of President Franklin Delano Roosevelt and President Harry S Truman.

These leaders were statesmen, who believed in using the powers of government to make ours a better nation for ALL Americans. Liberal Democrats believe in the Constitution where it says:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

There were 1,036 days from Jan. 20, 1961 to November 22, 1963. Thats 24,864 hours or 1,491,840 minutes or 89,510,400 seconds.

The periods been called the thousand days of Camelot. Really just a blink of an eye, for America it means more than that. It truly was a legendary time and America truly was a magical place a place where anything was possible.

Consider what President Kennedy worked to achieve: He raised the minimum wage, cut taxes, kept America from nuclear annihilation twice, maintained world peace, set about to bring equal rights for all Americans, got the country to invest in the arts and education, and set out to do the impossible land an American on the Moon and return him safely to the Earth. He did all that in a thousand days.

A thousand days. That is not much time considering how much JFK accomplished. And President Kennedy used each day to make ours a better nation for ALL Americans.

My, how things have changed. Heres a bit of reality programming whats happened in the 14,869 days since November 22, 1963:

October Surprise
El Salvador
Reagan Survives Hinckley and Bush
Voodoo Economics
Iraq-gate / Banca Nazionale del Lavoro arms
BCCI International Money Laundering for Terrorists & Intelligence Community
Savings & Loan scandal in general and Silverado in particular
Iran-contra Guns/Drugs/Martial Law
Gulf War I Glaspie Gives Go-Ahead
Selection 2000 Shreds US Constitution
Tax Cuts for UltraRich
Criminal Justice Department
Suicidal Environmental Policy
ENRON Energy Policy
9-11 Criminal Negligence, at best; Treason, most likely
Illegal Iraq Invasion

Its interesting in reviewing the above list, just how much conservative neo-con corrupt Republican leadership has really been a Contract On America. The list demonstrates there have been puhlenty of business opportunities in the finance, energy, and defense industries; But, that brief listing doesnt sound like its been a good deal for the average American for the past four decades.

And while there have been occasional flashes of the old Democratic magic in the administrations of James Earl Carter and William Jefferson Clinton, the fact of the matter is things havent really been the same since JFKs leadership.

While times may change, one name runs through all the history, the four decades since the JFK administration. Since the very hour of President Kennedys death, and through the list of sinister events and unrelenting nefarity noted above a record of infamy stretching back 40 years, 8 months and 16 days appears the name George Herbert Walker Bush.

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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 12:08 AM
Response to Original message
1. You've hit the nail with the hammer.
This country hasn't been the same since Jack Kennedy.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #1
13. JFK's legacy is right on our desktops.
NASA needed to miniaturize the computers for the Lunar Excursion Module and so did a crash program that led to the development of the Integrated Circuit.

One of the direct benefits of this invention is the affordable microprocessor-controlled computer which was responsible for much of the economic success story of the last three decades. Another is our abilty to instantly communicate around the world through fax, phone and Internet.

Yet, despite all the progress in our material world, it is as you wrote, shraby: "This country hasn't been the same since Jack Kennedy." And all the things we have in the world resulting from JFK and the Liberal America of old won't bring back that Spirit of the Day.

What we can do is reawaken that Spirit within ourselves. And then we spread it others. And through our thoughts and words and actions and deeds we will pull together as a United States of America. And then will our wishes and hopes and dreams can come True.
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-04 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #1
86. If you knew then what you know now

How would you feel about the Bush family?

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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 12:11 AM
Response to Original message
2. That certainly is true
We lost a lot on that day, I really hope that Kerry can bring back what we lost on that day, LBJ, Carter, and Clinton were great guys but I think Kerry will be the best democratic president since JFK. Kerry is an amazing guy with a strong points on many issues, I feel honored to have him as the nominee.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #2
16. "I'll appoint an Attorney General who upholds the Constitution."
And I look forward to what happens, that day JohnKleeb. As you know, Kerrys Fought the BFEE. And the facts show Kerry went after the Bush Organized Crime Family and Transnational Criminal Enterprise. For instance, take the famous international drug-dealer Lt. Col. Oliver North, (ret.):

Im sorry my link did not make this easy to find. The info and links below should make clear how and why North sicced the FBI on Kerry.

Read what Jonathan Vankin wrote, back when Iran-Contra drug dealing was merely a risqu subject (today, its gone taboo, with reporters losing their jobs for writing stories about it). BTW, Im sorry I couldnt post this underneath several posts where it would be apropos.

Conspiracies, Cover-Ups and Crimes:
Political Manipulation and Mind Control in America


To comprehend the governments role in cocaine traffic, (Manuel) Noriega is useful as a kind of focal point. He was on the payroll of the CIA at the same time he worked for the Medellin Cartel for four million dollars per month. The Medellin Cartel is the Columbian cocaine syndicate, responsible for most of the cocaine that enters the U.S.A.

Noriega was also connected to George Bush (Senior), and through Bush to Oliver North. They used Noriega as a conduit for getting arms to the contras.

Bush, North, and other government insiders at the CIA and the National Security Council (which under Reagan got heavily into covert operations) most likely knew about Noriegas involvement with drugs. Revelations about Noriega, and about direct contra and CIA involvement with cocaine smuggling, found their way into public record via a subcommittee of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, chaired by John Kerry.

In 1986, Senator Kerry received information that the Costa Rican branch of a Miami-based shrimp company Ocean Hunter, widely regarded as a drug-running front, had received checks for more than $200,000 dollars from the U.S. government. The money was part of the humanitarian aid allocated for the contras by Congress. Wondering why the cash was channeled to this shrimp-and-dope outfit, Kerry went to the FBI asking for an inquiry. Instead, the FBI investigated Kerry himself.


But wait, it gets better!

According to the FBI reports, North asked the FBI to investigate Kerry, to find links between the Massachusetts senator and the Nicaraguan Sandinista government. The investigation was reportedly initiated by a crack FBI counterintelligence group usually employed to track foreign agents in the United States.

SOURCE: Jonathan Vankin. Conspiracies, Cover-Ups and Crimes: Political Manipulation and Mind Control in America, Paragon House, New York, pp. 163164 (1991):

Some background on the matter from Robert Parry, who helped expose Iran-Contra way back when, describing North and his offices work against Kerry:

Heres what one of Ollie Norths political opponents had to say about Kerry:


The Kerry report states the following: ``John Hull was a central figure in Contra operations on the Southern Front when they were managed by Oliver North, from 1984 through late 1986....

``Five witnesses testified that Hull was involved in cocaine trafficking....'' One witness, pilot Gary Betzner, testified that his flights had carried weapons for the Contras to the Hull ranch, and then he carried drugs from the Hull ranch to the U.S.A.


According to the U.S.'s former top agent in El Salvador, Celerino Castillo, he and his associates were
ordered by DEA headquarters to keep all their case files open, so that the special prosecutor's office could not get access to them, on the grounds that these were ``active investigations.''

- The Kerry Committee Evidence

The sole exception to this pattern was the investigation conducted by a subcommittee of the U.S.
Senate Foreign Relations Committee, the Subcommittee on Terrorism, Narcotics, and International Operations, sometimes called the ``Kerry Committee'' after Senator John F. Kerry (D-Mass).

The evidence compiled by that committee alone would have been enough to prosecute and convict Oliver North and his confederates for conspiracy to import cocaine into the United States and many other offenses.

People are sent to prison every day in the United States on {far less} evidence than the Kerry Committee report contains against Oliver North. To be convicted of a drug conspiracy, a defendant need not actually touch or use the drugs; he only need know of the conspiracy, to tacitly agree with it, and to commit one ``overt act'' in pursuit of the conspiracy.

Approving payments to known drug-traffickers (which North did), or approving the involvement of known drug traffickers in Contra support operations (which North also did), would qualify as overt acts in any prosecutor's handbook.

In fact, by normal prosecutorial standards, Ollie would probably qualify as a ``drug kingpin.''

Let's look at some of the evidence.


BTW: I still remember the poem you wrote about Kerry. You are young and yours is a keen intellect. People like you are the reason we exist in a world that can make our dreams come True.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. you, blm, and the others know Kerry as well as anyone
As an amatuer researcher, I appreciate the work you guys do, I jsut do simple research like finding out info on congressional district, proving Kerry is a good dem, you know the easy stuff. Kerry is a great investigator, wonder what kind of stuff he'll turn up as president, I dont know why some say hes uninspiring, he may not be perfect but I think he gets the point across and can be very inspiring if you just listen, and above all the man has a great agenda ranging from the environment to health care issues.
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Syrinx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 12:12 AM
Response to Original message
3. and GHWB has claimed he doesn't remember where he was that day!
But we do know that a CIA agent named "George Bush" was in Dallas that day.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. very odd
Sigh that day is right up there with December 7, 1941, April 12, 1945, April 4, 1968, and June 6, 1968 for me, and personal days of sorrow for me as well. It is true that our country hasnt been the same since that fall day, we lost more than a man but we lost something I cant explain. His brother's death is simliar to that.
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Reverend_Smitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. We lost hope as a nation...
I wasn't around during the Kennedy administration. but when Kennedy was in office, he dared us to do the impossible (send a man to the moon and help the poor and sick worldwide with the Peace Corps)...with him in charge there was no end to what good this country could do. And when they shot him, it seemed like all the shit hit the fan all at once, concerning Vietnam, race riots, etc.

The cruelest part of it all, Bobby had the potential to bring back that optimism that Jack gave us...and they took it away from us, and we have yet to come close to that.

I never had the opportunity to live in this country when we had such a level of hope and optimism and quite frankly it stinks. Although, I know that it is not out of our reach. We just need to work together and reclaim our nation.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. neither was I, I was born in '87
The other sad thing is Ted Kennedy never will become pres either, hes a great guy.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #3
17. Let's ask him!
Lord knows, Poppy Bush has a lot to answer for. Barbara told Michael Beschloss that she took little Georgie into Dallas that day to see the parade. I'm sure Poppy wasn't far away.

Poppy might've been in Dallas, too...

These depict someone who slouches a lot and looks a little like Poppy in Dealey Plaza just after the President was shot not that he didn't have a perfectly plausible reason for being there, seeing how the police and eyewitnesses ran into men carrying Secret Service credentials on the grassy knoll ("Conspiracy" by Anthony Summers; "Accessories After the Fact" by Sylvia Meagher).

George HW Bush, president of Zapata Offshore, aboard an oil rig.

A suggestions: Subpoena George HW Bush were to testify on his whereabouts that day and settle matters once and for all.


PS: Of course, seems a lot of interesting fellahs had that OSS slouch...David Atlee Phillips, for one... Howard Hughes another, and liked the oil business, as well.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. well do you know poppy's AIM sn
I hear its Barbsbtch or Saudiboy.
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ochazuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 12:13 AM
Response to Original message
4. Wow, that was great.
It's probably more than a coincidence that both Carter and Clinton have reminded people of Kennedy. I remember thinking how TIME magazine used a portrait of Carter for their cover that had a striking resemblance to JFK.

Now, we have a man with the same initials, with a similar military career, and from the same state trying to save us from fascism.

I hope the ghost of Camelot is with him.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Kerry sure did love Camelot I read
I believe Edwards will bring along some of that magic with him as the VP, I really like Kerry and Edwards alot, they were high on my list in the primaries, great guys who I think can lead this country in the right direction.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #4
20. Thanks, cmorea! Perhaps that Spirit never really left! Go JFK2!
Like everyone, President Kennedy had his faults, but being President was not one of them. The guy was qualified, he earned the right to represent the Liberal wing of the Democratic Party, and was elected to the Presidency. In that capacity, he fused the traditional Democratic and American values with the realities of the present and the world of the future. Because of his greatness of Vision and the greatness of his works, JFK touched billions of people around the world. Those who remember or come to understand this will carry the Spirit and continue the work of the Next Frontier.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 12:15 AM
Response to Original message
7. Great post and thanks for the chronological rundown.
I've been running this in my head somewhat and thinking I should write it down. Thanks for doing this. *kiss*
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #7
21. Gee. Thanks, Cleita! Hey, you wouldn't happen to be...
...any relation to Teresa, would you? Just asking. :wink:

One needs a computer to keep track of the BFEE criminality. Here's a very good overview with lots o' links and stuff to GOOGLE:

The Bush Empire

How four generations of arms, oil, fascism, and US Govt. defiance made America's First Family

by Charles Shaw

"Almost everybody knows that George W. is the son of the 41st President. But fewer know that the family has wielded power in corporate boardrooms and capital corridors for a century and a half. On his mom's side, he's related to Franklin Pierce, the 14th President (1853-57). His dad's paternal grandfather, Samuel P. Bush, was an Ohio steel executive and the first president of the National Association of Manufacturers. Samuel's son, Prescott, became a Connecticut senator. Prescott's wife, Dorothy, was the daughter of George Herbert Walker, a co-founder of Brown Brothers Harriman, the oldest and largest private investment house on Wall Street. The Walker family helped finance the construction of Madison Square Garden and the Belmont Park racetrack--and later owned a big chunk of the New York Mets."
--Business Week, Nov 15, 1999

The previous quote embodies the public face of the Bush family, one of the richest and most influential American political dynasties in all our history. But it is almost shocking how little people actually know about the Bush family, particularly the history of the Bush men. I thought we might look beneath the veneer at the true face of America's political dynasty.

I am going to open with a story that is guaranteed to blow your hair back. This is a story that has been impossible to confirm in the mainstream press. Of course, this is part of the whole story, and why curiously the story keeps surfacing and disappearing all over the Internet. At the very least, this story is referred to enough to qualify as a modern legend. This is the extraordinary story of a dinner date that was scheduled to happen on March 31st 1981, the day of the strange assassination attempt on the life of former President Ronald Reagan. What should have been the biggest story of the 1980's seems to have been wiped clean from history, systematically prevented from ever again being mentioned by corporate media.

Held at the home of Neil Bush, the son of George Herbert Walker Bush, who himself was the very ambitious former CIA director and current Vice President, the guest of honor at the dinner party (which was quickly cancelled after news of the failed attempt on the life of the President), was Scott Hinckley, the brother of John Hinckley, the man who just that afternoon shot President Ronald Reagan, coming one half-inch from killing him.

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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 12:16 AM
Response to Original message
8. Octa that was great
Really appreciate the work you and others too, you guys are great.
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dixielib Donating Member (81 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 12:22 AM
Response to Original message
9. I came of age on that date
On November 22, 1963, I turned 19...a birthday I will never forget. Come back Camelot...come back.
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AmericansFirst Donating Member (7 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. Yeah, I'm 19 myself but
I've always been a big fan of JFK despite what my teachers tried to teach me in school. Interesting you bring up George HW Bush in this. My friend is convinced that he was Deep Throat and brought down Nixon. I'm a bit skeptical of that but it isn't as for fetched thinking about it. Then of course, there was a connection to the guy who attempted to kill Reagan who was connected to the Bush Bombalot family.

A real sad day in America to be sure...if he would have been in there for eight years he would definitely have ranked in my Top 10 or maybe Top 5 list of presidents of all time. He gave us hope and stood up to the Russians. Sadly, as Ted Kennedy once said, the only thing he didn't have on his side was time or something to that variety.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 01:58 AM
Response to Reply #12
24. Teachers don't want to "go there."
That means they'd have to explain how at one time the US Government gave a damn about everyone -- from the rich to the poor at home to friend and foe alike overseas. We shared the planet and its resources. We were all part of the same boat.

No. It's easier to go along with the powers-that-be, the lazy teacher says: It's OK. The Warren Commission said it was Lee Harvey Oswald. Besides, JFK killed Marilyn his Mistress and JFK got us into Vietnam. Watergate proved that the System works. Iran-Contra was prosecuted. Selection 2000 was fair and sqaure. 9-11 was unpredictable and unstoppable and will happen again and again and again. Take your meds. Don't worry, children. "President" Bush is a strong leader.

Yeah. It bothers me, too.

A most hearty welcome to DU, AmericansFirst! Great first post!
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #9
22. Keep the dream alive... To the Next Frontier!
Here's a young fellah who's been thinking abouit the same thing for 42 years, now...

John Kerry, left, sails with President John F. Kennedy
aboard the 62-foot Coast Guard yawl
in Narragansett Bay on Aug. 26, 1962.

BTW: A most hearty welcome to DU, dixielib! Like the moniker! Whereyabeen?
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 01:53 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. I read about how Kerry met Kennedy in Tour of Duty
Neat story.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #23
35. Please share it with us, JK!

John Kerry joined President John F. Kennedy
to watch the September 1962 America's Cup race
from the
USS Joseph P. Kennedy off Newport, Rhode Island.

Here's what JFK2 told Peter Jennings:


An Unforgettable Encounter

As a young man, Kerry was serious. And excited, he says, by President John F. Kennedy.

Kerry told Jennings how he first met JFK while visiting in Rhode Island. "I happened to wind up at the house where he was staying," said Kerry. " wanted to go sailing and we went out. I had an incredible moment of meeting the president and of having this just down-to-earth conversation with the guy."

When Kerry told Kennedy he was about to start college at Yale, Kennedy grimaced because he had gone to Ivy League rival Harvard. "He smiled at me, laughed and said, 'Oh, don't worry about it. You know I'm a Yale man too now,' " said Kerry. " uttered that famous comment about how he had the best of two worlds now: a Harvard education and Yale degree," referring to the fact he had received an honorary degree from Yale in 1962.

"It was an interesting moment, and one that I obviously would never forget," said Kerry.


BTW: JFK earned his spot at Harvard, unlike the unelected fraud currently putting his heels on the desk in the Oval Office.

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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 12:45 AM
Response to Original message
14. November 22nd it what it was..a coup d'etat...
Plain and simple....
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #14
25. Check out these fingerprints:
Two FBI memos concerning the JFK assassination name George Bush. The first is dated 22 November 1963. It reports "George Herbert Walker Bush" phoned the FBI within minutes of the President Kennedys death to report his suspicions about one "James Parrott" of Houston who talked of "killing the President when he comes to Houston." Gee. Some Republican!

The second FBI memo, dated 29 November 1963, one week after the assassination of President Kennedy, describes the secret report of one "Mr. George Bush of the Central Intelligence Agency, which helped clear the anti-Castro Cuban community in Miami of involvement in the assassination.

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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 12:46 AM
Response to Original message
15. Fidel Castro's remarks, November 23, 1963.
Edited on Sat Aug-07-04 12:57 AM by Minstrel Boy
From a television address he gave to Cuba. His complete speech is reproduced in Martin Scholtz's very interesting anthology regarding the assassination, History Will Not Absolve Us. Fidel showed a pretty deft grasp of the situation.

Concerning the Facts and Consequences of the Tragic Death of President John F Kennedy
(sorry, no link; I transcribed this a while back)

"International tension had even diminished considerably in recent months. These months were not months like the October crisis. The United States was not living through one of those stages of McCarthyism characterized by unbridled persecution of the most progressive elements in the United States.... No, the United States was not living through such a period. It was living through a period of fierce controversy between the more moderate sectors - among which can be found many of Kennedy's collaborators - and the ultra-reactionary sector of American society.


"It just so happens that these events occurred precisely at a moment when Kennedy was being severely attacked by those who considered his Cuban policy too weak.

"It could not be us, but only the enemies of the Revolution and the enemies, in general, of a more moderate policy, a less warlike policy, the enemies of a policy like this who might be interested in the death of President Kennedy, the only ones who perhaps could have received the news of the death of Kennedy with satisfaction.


"We cannot categorically affirm what is behind all this, but we do affirm that is is suspicious; that we must be careful, that we must be vigilant, that we must be alert. Because this man (Oswald) may be innocent, a cat's paw, in a plan well prepared by people who knew how to prepare these plans; or he may be a sick man and if so, the only honest thing is to hand him over for a medical examination and not to be starting a campaign extremely dangerous to world peace; or he may be an instrument very well chosen and very well trained by the ultra-right, by ultra-conservative reaction of the United States with the deliberate aim of eliminating a President who, according to them, did not carry out the policy he should have - more warlike, more aggressive, more adventuresome policy. And it is necessary for all people of the United States themselves to demand that what is behind the Kennedy assassination be clarified."

And an interesting story here from last November:

Revealed: how Kennedy's assassination thwarted hopes of Cuba reconciliation

A few days before his assassination, President Kennedy was planning a meeting with Cuban officials to negotiate the normalisation of relations with Fidel Castro, according to a newly declassified tape and White House documents.

The rapprochement was cut off in Dallas 40 years ago this week by Lee Harvey Oswald, who appears to have believed he was assassinating the president in the interests of the Cuban revolution.

But the new evidence suggests that Castro saw Kennedy's killing as a setback. He tried to restart a dialogue with the next administration, but Lyndon Johnson was at first too concerned about appearing soft on communism and later too distracted by Vietnam to respond.


Peter Kornbluh, a researcher at Washington's National Security Archives who has reviewed the new evidence, said: "It shows that the whole history of US-Cuban relations might have been quite different if Kennedy had not been assassinated.",3604,10...

Everyone needs to read Kennedy's American University address, June 10, 1963 ( ). The greatest speach of the last American century. Perhaps the greatest speach of any American President.

"What kind of peace do I mean? What kind of peace do we seek? Not a Pax Americana enforced on the world by American weapons of war. Not the peace of the grave or the security of the slave. I am talking about genuine peace, the kind of peace that makes life on earth worth living, the kind that enables men and nations to grow and to hope and to build a better life for their children--not merely peace for Americans but peace for all men and women--not merely peace in our time but peace for all time."

Words like that can change the world. The Soviet Union took notice, and Kruschev was ready to be a partner for peace. Relations with Cuba were to be normalized. America was to begin a withdrawl from Vietnam. The world was about to change.

Of course he had to be stopped.

"We all breathe the same air. We all cherish our children's future. And we are all mortal."

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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #15
33. Es una mala noticia.
A journalist serving as a go-between was with Castro when he got the news. From the look on Castro's face, he iimediately knew the implications for the future of his nation and the world would not be good. Kennedy was a man of peace and had strived mightily against members of his own Cabinet, Pentagon and Congress who counseled nuclear war.

For opposing the hawks during the Bay of Pigs when he refused to officially commit the US military, for opposing them in the Cuban Missile Crisis when they demanded war with the Soviet Union, when he refused their demands to escalate the conflict in Vietnam and Southeast Asia, the men of war murdered President Kennedy.

PS: Yours is a helluva post there, Minstrel-san! It deserves a better response than this, as do all the replies on this thread. For now, I wanted to state that I really appreciate what it contains and where it links to more information. And that image depicts the very minute the United States changed forever. Working together, you and all good people around the world are changing it back to what it was.

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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 02:38 AM
Response to Original message
26. That gave me chills, Octafish. So true. So true.
Let us all hope and pray, on the blood of our ancestors who died to make this country great, that this generation will not pass away until every member of the bush crime family is finally prosecuted for all their evil deeds, and exposed to public and historic shame, along with EVERY crooked, slimey, murdering bastard they've conspired with.

The bush crime family is a pox on humanity.

:kick: :kick: :kick:
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #26
34. Everything JFK was for, George Bush & Co. is against.
When George Herbert Walker Bush was inaugurated President in 1989, he stated that our nation has more will than wallet. Gee. He certainly knew what he was talking about. The Reagan-Bush administration had pretty much looted the nations Treasury and fixed the tax code to transfer wealth from the middle class to the wealthy. They gamed fiscal policy to benefit the same upper class through deficit spending and targeted government outlays. Worst of all these BFEE turds used the powers of the US government to arm our enemies in order to consolidate their own power.

As president, Poppy got busy on his own and looted the nations Savings & Loans to benefit his political chums and his off-the-books transnational criminal enterprises. He started a war with a nation and dictator he helped arm. He worked to continue the Cold War, then after the Soviet Union collapsed, did all he could to penure the newly freed Russian people and did as little as possible to stop the spread of their nuclear technology. That doesnt even count the stuff we dont know about or the record his dim, but wicked sons have accomplished. (Thank Goodness for Ross Perot -- and he's a right-winger!)

Bush Jr shows only gotten worse since then. And while I don't know who the BFEE works for, or their involvement in the plot to kill JFK, I can make an educated guess. When you look at who benefited, Bush and the friends of Bush in oil, finance and the Military-Industrial Complex have done really well. The rest of the country has not. And the nation has not been the same since Dallas.

PS: Thanks for caring, loudsue! That's what's keeps us going!

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linazelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 03:18 AM
Response to Original message
27. What a post!
I especially love the jfk quote on terrorism. no,onated this for the home page.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #27
37. Thanks, linazelle!
And thanks for the kind words! Anyone who likes President Kennedy and what he stood for is A-OK!

Lt. (j.g.) John F. Kennedy, at the helm of his command, PT-109.

"The goal of education is the advancement of knowledge and the dissemination of truth." President John F. Kennedy

Contrast and compare with:

"Is our children learning?" Gov. George Bush

And one that has helped me move toward Jan. 20, 2005:

"When written in Chinese, the word 'crisis' is composed of two characters. One represents danger and the other represents opportunity." President John F. Kennedy

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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 08:44 AM
Response to Original message
28. Never let us forget Octafish
"Let me be remembered as the man who told you something you already knew" - Woody Guthrie.

George Bush and the Rise of Christian Fascism

The men who wrote the Constitution of the United States knew that we human beings have a tendency to 'not get along with each other'. They knew that if power accrued into the hands of an elite the experiment of democracy (power spread out into the realm of the people) would be over. So they created a system of checks and balances which blocked access to any one person, or any one special interest or elite gaining too much power over others. Thus our executive, legislative and judicial branches of government "checked" each other. The media was yet another "check" on the accrual of too much power as was the Bill of Rights which was written into the Constitution. The system wasn't perfect but it kept alive the possibility of true democracy. It kept alive the dream that one day "we the people" could live in a peaceful commonwealth where every person has what they need to survive and thrive.

That dream died in December 2000 when the checks and balances of our Constitution collapsed and George Bush was inserted into the Presidency of the United States. September 11, 2001 furthered the atrophying of democracy handing the country into the hands of an emerging Corporate (and I say Christian) Fascism.

Since that time we have witnessed and have been unable to prevent the emergence of an Imperial Presidency that has the unrestricted power to declare war against any country he chooses. The Imperial Presidency has brought to an end the Constitutional mandate that 'ONLY CONGRESS' has the authority to declare war. It has furthered weakened international law and has undermined the potential of the United Nations to spread democracy throughout the earth.

The President has also gained unrestricted power to round up unlimited numbers of American citizens and incarcerate them in military brigs or concentration camps for the rest of their lives. He can keep them from ever again communicating with friends, families, and attorneys, simply on the president's certification that the incarcerated are "terrorists,".

Rev. Rich Lang

Pastures of Plenty

It's a mighty hard row that my poor hands have hoed
My poor feet have traveled that hot dusty road
Out of your dust bowl and westward we go
Your desert was hot and your mountain was cold

I've worked in your orchards of peaches and prunes
I've slept on the ground in the light of your moon
On the edge of your city you've seen us and then
We come with the dust and we go with the wind

California, Arizona, I make all your crops
Then north up to Oregon to gather your hops
Pull the beets from your ground, cut the grapes from your vine
To set on your table your light, sparkling wine

Green pastures of plenty from dry desert ground
From the Grand Coulee Dam where the water runs down
Every state in this union us migrants have been
We'll work in your fight and we'll fight til we win

Well it's always we ramble that river and I
All along your green valley I'll work til I die
This land I'll defend with my life if need be
Cause my pastures of plenty must always be free

It's a mighty hard row that my poor hands have hoed
My poor feet have traveled that hot dusty road
On the edge of your city you've seen us and then
We come with the dust and we go with the wind

We come with the dust and we go with the wind

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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #28
43. Das Neues Reich
"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator." Then-and-still Gov George W Bush

Here are some volk with the will to help the fascist:


privatizing, monopolizing, & politicizing the voting process... around the world


History: In 1999, American Information Systems (AIS), purchased Business Records Corp (BRC) to become ES&S
* American Information Systems (AIS):

* AIS (1980) was formerly Data Mark (1979), both founded by brothers Bob and Todd Urosevich. Bob is currently president of Diebold (see below).Todd Urosevich is Vice President, Aftermarket Sales of ES&S.

* AIS was primarily funded with money from Ahmanson brothers, William and Robert, of H.F. Ahmanson Co., holding company for the nation's largest savings and loan association and a group of Omaha-based insurance companies, at the time.

* Howard Ahmanson belongs to Council for National Policy (hard right wing organization) . Howard Ahmanson also helps finance The Chalcedon Institute: "Established in 1965, Chalcedon (kal-SEE-dun) is a non-profit 501(c)(3) and Christian educational organization devoted to research, publishing, and promoting Christian reconstruction in all areas of life... Our emphasis on the Cultural or Dominion Mandate (Genesis 1:28) and the necessity of a return to Biblical Law has been a a crucial factor in the challenge to Humanism by Christians in this country and elsewhere... A world that is increasingly pessimistic and disillusioned with the failure of secular Humanism is now feeling the impact of Christians who are exercising dominion and reclaiming lost spheres of authority for Christ the King." / / critical profile: the organization's purpose is to establish Old Testament Biblical law as the standard for society. Chalcedon promotes Christian Reconstructionism -- which mandates Christ's dominion over all the world.

* Senator Chuck Hagel (R-NE) was Chairman of the Board of AIS (resigned 1995) and was also president of McCarthy & Company (resigned 1996). Michael R. McCarthy is Hagel's current campaign treasurer. source: / Hagel may still be an investor in the McCarthy Group, see

SOURCE (and a lot more):

PS: Thanks, seemslikeadream! As a redundant master of the obvious redundancy, I do resemble that remark.

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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #43

Soon, the money came rolling in to the Anglican Council, with more than
$1 million in donations from Ahmanson in 2000 and 2001. And the newly
flush Anglican Council redoubled its anti-gay campaign, climaxing in
November when the Episcopal Church consecrated its first openly gay
bishop, the Rt. Rev. Eugene Robinson. With its war chest full and its
strongest pretext yet for a schism, the group cranked up a smear
campaign against Robinson, falsely accusing him of sexual harassment and
administering a bisexual pornography Web site, prompting three wealthy
dioceses to split with the Episcopal Church and join the Anglican
Council's renegade network. Now more dioceses and parishes are poised to
follow, a prospect that threatens to weaken the progressive Episcopal
Church's political influence -- 44 members of Congress are Episcopalian
-- and provide an important new tableau for right-wing political organizing.

The Episcopal Church split is only a small part of Ahmanson's concerted
efforts to radically transform not only American religion, but the
nation's moral culture and, thereby, the country itself. His money has
made possible some of the most pivotal conservative movements in
America's recent history, including the 1994 GOP takeover of the
California Legislature, a ban on gay marriage and affirmative action in
California, and the mounting nationwide campaign to prove Darwin wrong
about evolution. His financial influence also helped propel the recent
campaign to recall California Gov. Gray Davis. And besides contributing
cash to George W. Bush's 2000 presidential campaign, Ahmanson has played
an important role in driving Bush's domestic agenda by financing the
career of Marvin Olasky, a conservative intellectual whose ideas
inspired the creation of the new White House Office of Faith-Based and
Community Initiatives.

After more than 20 years of politically oriented philanthropy, Ahmanson
is now emerging as one of the major financial angels of the right,
putting him in the company of Richard Mellon Scaife, the oil and banking
heir who bankrolled the groundwork for much of the conservative
movement's apparatus and became a household name in the 1990s thanks to
his $2.4 million dirty-tricks campaign against President Bill Clinton. Yet few Americans have heard of Ahmanson -- and that's the way he likes
it. Unlike Scaife, Ahmanson donates cash either out of his own pocket or
through his unincorporated corporate entity, Fieldstead and Co., to
avoid having to report the names of his grantees to the IRS. His
Tourette's syndrome only adds to his reclusive persona, as his fear of
speaking leads him to shun the media. And while Scaife travels the world
in his own DC-7 jet, Ahmanson shuns luxury for a lifestyle of
down-to-earth humility. As his wife of 17 years, Roberta Green Ahmanson,
told me, he once gave up his seat on an airplane for a refund. And when
he goes out for a spin in his neighborhood in Newport Beach, a posh
coastal community 45 minutes south of Los Angeles, he drives a Prius,
Toyota's new, environment-friendly hybrid car. It's a modest choice for
a man who could afford an entire Hummer dealership, but nevertheless a
considerable upgrade from his old Datsun pickup.

At the root of Ahmanson's quirky asceticism and ardent conservatism is
his rocky path from cloistered rich kid to Bible-believing
philanthropist. Ahmanson's father, Howard Sr., was a savings and loan
tycoon whose net worth was valued at over $300 million at the time of
his death in 1968. Howard Jr. was only 18 at the time he inherited the
fortune. Ejected from his sheltered youth to confront a world suddenly
in his palm, the reluctant heir feared that he would never surpass his
father's accomplishments; at the same time, he viewed his inherited
fortune as a wall separating him from humanity. After wandering the
country and the world searching for peace of mind, he returned home in
the mid-'70s still a lost soul.

It was then that he found his salvation in the church and in R.J.
Rushdoony, a prolific author and an influential theologian of the far
right. Rushdoony is the father of Christian Reconstructionism, a strange
variant of Calvinism that stresses waging political struggle to put the
earth, and in particular the U.S., under the control of biblical law. In
his 30-some books, he advocated everything from the end of
government-administered social welfare and public schools to the
execution of homosexuals. For around 20 years, until Rushdoony's death
in 1995, Ahmanson served on the board of his think tank, Chalcedon,
granting it a total of $1 million. In exchange, Rushdoony acted as
Ahmanson's spiritual advisor, imbuing him with a sense of order and a
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #49
58. Those who aren't furious, aren't paying attention.
Who needs Democracy when we have the big G on our side?

Theocratic Web Sites

(By Chip Berlet & Margaret Quigley)

The theocratic right's ideal is an authoritarian society where Christian men interpret God's will as law. Women are helpmates, and children are the property of their parents. Earth must submit to the dominion of those to whom God has granted power. People are basically sinful, and must be restrained by harsh punitive laws. Social problems are caused by Satanic conspiracies aided and abetted by liberals, homosexuals, feminists, and secular humanists. These forces must be exposed and neutralized.

Newspaper columnist Cal Thomas, a long-standing activist in the theocratic right, has suggested that churches and synagogues take over the welfare system "because these institutions would also deal with the hearts and souls of men and women." The churches "could reach root causes of poverty"--a lack of personal responsibility, Thomas wrote, expressing a hard-line Calvinist theology. "If government is always there to bail out people who have children out of wedlock, if there is no disincentive (like hunger) for doing for one's self, then large numbers of people will feel no need to get themselves together and behave responsibly."

SOURCE w/mo links some of which are kaput, but hey, that's what GOOGLE's for:

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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #58
66. Do you know these people?
Edited on Sat Aug-07-04 06:05 PM by seemslikeadream

They are the seven highest ranking Republican Senators in the U.S. Senate.

Every one of them received a scorecard of 100% from Christian Coalition.

That means they voted with Christian Coalition 100% of the time.

How were people representing such an extreme ideological point of view elected to the top positions in the Republican Party?

The leaders of the Republican Party were chosen by their colleagues.

March Toward Theocracy
Since the Religious Right began to dominate the Republican Party, and the Republican Party won majorities in both Houses of the U.S. Congress, the influence of the Religious Right has become immense. And they have a powerful ally in the White House. The President's Faith-Based Initiative is transforming the United States into a "Christian" nation.

"And how do you terrorize an evil doer?" he asked. "You enforce Biblical law!" The purpose of government, he said, is "to protect the church of Jesus Christ," and, "Nobody has the right to worship on this planet any other God than Jehovah. And therefore the state does not have the responsibility to defend anybody's pseudo-right to worship an idol!" "There ain't no such thing" as religious pluralism, he declared. Further, "There has never been such a condition in the history of mankind. There is no such place now. There never will be." "What is Christian Reconstructionism?" by Frederick Clarkson, The Public Eye.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #66
Edited on Sat Aug-07-04 06:45 PM by seemslikeadream

By election time in 1994 Christian Coalition distributed 40 million copies of the "Family Values Voter's Guide" in more than 100,000 churches nationwide. 1994 was the year Republicans took control of Congress for the first time in 40 years. It was also the year that Republicans made a huge gain in State Legislatures.

The purpose of focusing on state legislative races was so that Republicans could gerrymander Congressional Districts. To be sure, both parties have used the practice of gerrymandering to their advantage, but, in recent years, Republicans have elevated this practice to new heights.

Up until 1994, Democrats held strong majorities in both houses of most State Legislatures. In 1992 Democrats had majorities in both bodies of twenty-five legislatures, Republicans eight. In 1994, Democrats had majorities in eighteen, Republicans, nineteen. By 2003, Democrats had sixteen, Republicans, twenty-one.

Time Magazine, in May, 1995, called Ralph Reed "The Right Hand of God" and credited the Christian Coalition with giving the Republicans their victories. Out of forty-five new members in the U.S. House of Representatives and nine in the U.S. Senate in 1994, roughly half were Christian Coalition candidates.

1996, 45 million voter guides were sent out.

In 2000, 75 million voter guides were sent out to support George Bush.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #68
75. Wish I had toilet paper printed with that picture.
I'd make a fortune selling it on DU.

Great posts, as always, SLADeroo. The church is a cash cow for conservatives and neo-cons. They should all be taxed for using their income for political purposes and their leadership tarred and feathered for ripping off their televised congregations.

Especially putrid is Ralph "The Right Hand of His Pants" Reed, a most unctuous BFEE turd. And that is some base Ralphie rips off. Do you think they would be pissed to discover Pat Robertson's a drunken chickenhawk from Korea and Ralphie, like Adolf, likes animals and big corporations, like ENRON? From Rupert the Alien we learn:

FEC: Ralph Reed's Enron Deal Worth More than Half a Million

Tuesday, March 11, 2003

WASHINGTON In a controversy that touched White House political adviser Karl Rove, Enron Corp. signed contracts with GOP consultant Ralph Reed worth more than half a million dollars, the Federal Election Commission revealed in a ruling.

Enron paid Reed, the former Christian Coalition leader, about $300,000 before the energy company's collapse.

The payments came to light as part of an FEC inquiry into whether Enron's hiring of GOP consultant Reed was a sham designed to disguise an in-kind contribution from Enron to Bush's presidential effort.

In dismissing a complaint against Rove and the Bush-Cheney presidential campaign, the FEC disclosed that the Enron-Reed ties involved far more money than has previously been reported.

The FEC said that just months before Enron filed for bankruptcy in 2001 it entered into a one-year contract paying Reed $30,000 a month plus expenses. The contract was for "ongoing advice and counsel to Enron" in pushing deregulation in the energy industry. The FEC ruling says that the agreement apparently was cut short after four months as Enron careened toward bankruptcy.

CONTINUED REED TURDITUDE...,2933,80743,00.html

Reminds me of a Dali. Anyway: Another toilet paper pattern.

Fundies and Freepers: You're being ripped off by the BFEE and their turds!

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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #66
69. U.S. Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia

Supreme Court Justice Scalia is the person who could have the greatest impact in helping the Religious Right establish its sovereignty. President Bush has talked about Scalia as the justice he admires the most.

Scalia spoke at the University of Chicago Divinity School in January, 2002, and wrote an article for First Things, in May, 2002. He quotes St. Paul: "...Government...derives its moral authority from God. It is the minister of God with powers to "avenge" to "execute wrath" including even wrath by the sword (which is unmistakenly a reference to the death penalty)." Scalia appears hostile to Democracy: The "consensus"

"has been upset, I think by the emergence of democracy...It is much more difficult to see the hand of God...behind the fools and rogues...we ourselves elect of our own free will."

He sees democracy as obscuring the divine authority: "the reaction of people of faith to this tendency of democracy to obscure divine authority...should the resolution to combat it as effectively as possible."

Scalia views the United States Constitution as "dead" rather than as a living document that evolves along with society.

"...the Constitution that I interpret is not living but dead...It means today not what current society (much less the Court) thinks it ought to mean, but what it meant when it was adopted."

This view of the US Constitution as "dead" could become the basis of a strategy to dismantle the separation of church and state. In a speech on January 12, 2003, at a Religious Freedom Day event, Scalia said that the principle was not imbedded in the constitution and therefore should be added democratically, which means through a constitutional amendment. An amendment to the Constitution on church-state separation would be impossible to achieve in the current political climate, so the argument is disingenuous.

Scalia, speaking to a crowd of about 150 in Fredericksburg to mark a "Religious Freedom Day," asserted that America's Founding Fathers never meant to "exclude God from the public forums and from political life." "Scalia sounds like a TV preacher, not a Supreme Court justice," said the Rev. Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United. "His job is to uphold the Constitution, not promote religiosity."

The swelling controversy has exposed other less egregious but still troubling outside activities by Justice Scalia. The Los Angeles Times recently reported that he delivered a speech to a $150-a-plate dinner of an anti-gay advocacy group in Philadelphia even as the Supreme Court was deliberating in the Texas sodomy case last year

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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #69
76. "Scalia sounds like a TV preacher, not a Supreme Court justice."
Wow. This says it all.

"Scalia sounds like a TV preacher, not a Supreme Court justice," said the Rev. Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United. "His job is to uphold the Constitution, not promote religiosity."

Wow. Perhaps Scalia THINKS like a TV preacher because he's interested in the same things: PASS THE LOOT!

PS: Fat Tony Supremo is how I found this place.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #66
70. These Religous Reich.
They don't believe in a Just, Loving and Living God: They believe in the Old Testament where God talked about property and power in Genesis 1:28:

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Isn't their concern for property and power, um, un-Christian?

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Merlin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 08:56 AM
Response to Original message
29. Great quote from a great man. Think of all the people he inspired!
I'm sure one of them. In the summer before my senior year in HS, I went on to the Dem Steer Roast in Cleveland on a lark with a bunch of classmates. JFK spoke and I was tantalized. Got involved in his campaign. Started reading history. Decided to go to college. Studied the man and his life who became a real mentor to me in the absence of a father figure to emulate.

I love the guy, unabashedly. His spirit lives on in so many of us. His words convey the kind of idealism without illusions that can literally inspire changes in the history of the world.

Octy, I don't know how you found a JFK quote I had never read before! Many thanks for it and this thread.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #29
44. Always proud to help you, Merlin! You've fought to keep me free...
... at home and overseas. Helping spread the word is the least I can do. Here's one I believe you keep to heart:

"We can say with some assurance that, although children may be the victims of fate, they will not be the victims of our neglect."

Remarks upon signing the Maternal and Child Health and Mental Retardation Planning Bill into law, October 24, 1963, Public Papers of the Presidents: 1963, p. 811.


86W! SINK the BFEE!

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chieftain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 09:26 AM
Response to Original message
30. What a contrast
W snivels about a nation in danger . JFK I offered courage and vision . We are being led by moral pygmies . Until January that is .
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. Hi chieftain!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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chieftain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. Thanks
Glad to be here .
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #30
46. The difference between night and day.
Bush has to do everything, but everything, under the cover of darkness. The "most secret administration in history":

Bush Administration most secretive ever

Government Openness at Issue as Bush Holds Onto Records

By Adam ("Big Time") Clymer
New York Times
Friday 3 January 2003

WASHINGTON, Jan. 2 -- The Bush administration has put a much tighter lid than recent presidents on government proceedings and the public release of information, exhibiting a penchant for secrecy that has been striking to historians, legal experts and lawmakers of both parties.

Some of the Bush policies, like closing previously public court proceedings, were prompted by the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks and are part of the administration's drive for greater domestic security. Others, like Vice President Dick Cheney's battle to keep records of his energy task force secret, reflect an administration that arrived in Washington determined to strengthen the authority of the executive branch, senior administration officials say.

Some of the changes have sparked a passionate public debate and excited political controversy. But other measures taken by the Bush administration to enforce greater government secrecy have received relatively little attention, masking the proportions of what dozens of experts described in recent interviews as a sea change in government openness.


The Ashcroft directive encouraged federal agencies to reject requests for documents if there was any legal basis to do so, promising that the Justice Department would defend them in court. It was a stark reversal of the policy set eight years earlier, when the Clinton administration told agencies to make records available whenever they could, even if the law provided a reason not to, so long as there was no "foreseeable harm" from the release.


As far as I'm concerned, it's like the New Testament said: Only crooks do stuff under the cover of darkness.

PS: A most hearty welcome to DU, chieftain! Great post and Spirit!

BTW: Bush, like most conservatives, is too chicken to actually do anything like what JFK did during the PT-109 ordeal.

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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
36. You forgot the defeat of mighty Greneda.
Who were about to attack us with armloads of WMB (Weapons made of bananas).
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #36
47. Gracias, Flagfellah! Feel free to pile on the BFEE criminality!
Argh! I forgot Panama and BFEE Dope Inc cheeze and Bush friend Manuel Noriega.

Regarding the 1983 Grenada Invasion: It was a deadly diversion to draw attention away from the absolute disaster in Beirut, when the suicide truck bomber ran through the unarmed USMC check-point and into the building housing hundreds of members of the US armed forces, in country for a "Presence Mission." Especially infuriating was the fact the Iranian-allied terrorists employed the exact same technique at the US and French (IIRC) embassies a few months earlier. Meanwhile, the US and its allies continued to deal with the Ayatollah -- must've been payback for favors or something.

BTW: Today we have terror warnings whenever W's approval numbers start to tank. Certain, connected members of our government do business with those terrorists, too.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
38. "What if you could've been there on that day in Dallas"
"Conspiracy Theory", by Steve Earle

What if I told you it was done with mirrors
What if I showed you it was all a lie
Better be careful, someone might hear ya
The walls have ears and the sky has eyes
What if I said you were only dreamin'
What you wanna bet that all you gotta do
Is open up your eyes and you will wake up screamin'
When you realize that it's all come true

Hush, now don't you believe it
Cover your head and close your eyes
Now, take it or leave it
Go back to bed
Now don't you cry

Half a million soldiers fly across the water
One in ten are never comin' back again
Fifty thousand sons who never grew to fathers
Don't you ever wonder who they might have been
What if you could've been there on that day in Dallas
What if you could wrestle back the hands of time
Maybe somethin' could've been done in Memphis
We wouldn't be livin' in a dream that's died

Go on and tell yourself again there are no secrets
Go on and tell yourself that you don't want to know
It's best that you believe that you don't hear the footsteps
That follow you around no matter where you go
Maybe you were thinkin' that it didn't matter
Maybe you believed nobody else would care
But once you've added every little lie together
You finally find the truth was always waiting there

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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #38
56. "Of all things, this alone is denied God ..."
... the power to undo the past." Agathon (446-401 BC)

Now, in our time, we must use the lessons and events before us to CREATE the future that we -- a free and Democratic world and a free Republic that is the United Statess -- desire.

BTW: Here's a guy who understands what Minstrel Boy's talking about, John Newman. The former US Army major and history professor at West Point discovered the paper trail missing from the Pentagon Papers -- he found the documents indicated JFK planned to pull out of Vietnam by the end of 1964. Newman also discovered that LBJ reversed course within days of the assassination and ordered the US to do whatever was necessary to support the government of South Vietnam. Gee. That Tonkin Gulf set-up sure makes sense, now.

Those interested in more detail may want to visit:
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #56
59. John Newman - thanks for mentioning him!
His essay in The Assassinations is an important follow-up, using recently declassified documents, to his massive work Oswald and the CIA. The CIA's Mexico City station has a lot to answer for.

He discusses some of it here, in this lecture from 1999:

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Steely_Dan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
39. Thanks for Posting made me think.

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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #39
54. Anytime, PLA0242! Have you heard about "The Wink"?
Thank you, DU Friend! That's all I could ask for...

Gee. Jackie's in shock. Now why would someone give a "conspiratorial wink" at a time like that?

The Most Revealing Wink
Of The 20th Century

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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 12:40 PM
Response to Original message
40. Assassination as a Tool of Fascism
From an old lecture by John Judge that contextualizes the "unlucky" American experience of seeing progressive leaders, whistleblowers and witnesses getting lonegunmen'd, suicide'd and accident'd since WWII.

Nazis? Fascists? You better believe it!

Assassination as a Tool of Fascism


But I found the same names cropping up, the same modus operandi, the same monies, (and I've only named a few of them), throughout not only the major assassinations...but also many of the witnesses that died. And a lot of the people that we knew were involved in the original research started to drop dead. There's people dropping dead now, during the Contragate investigation. It's a constant pattern: the witnesses are wiped out.

And when you go into the specifics: who did they know, or where they were, who was around them, or who helped set them up, you will find, I believe, (if you do the work, and I encourage you to do it on the things that you're interested in) people that have connections to Navy Intelligence. That's the central place where these people operated from, on the command level. You'll find people otherwise involved in the US Intelligence agencies. And you'll find people either with direct ties to Nazi Germany or with connections to current Fascist International networks that grew out of that period.

But those Nazis came here. They formed our foreign policy. There's a couple of new books out. If you haven't had a chance to see them, you should get them. This is by Bower, from a British publisher. It's called The Paperclip Conspiracy, and it's about the hunt for the Nazi scientists. There's an earlier book by Clarance Lasby, Project Paperclip that's very good, but these are recent ones, with some new information.


What I'm suggesting is that there's this history of the Fascism moving; that assassination has been its long-term technique for certain political purposes; and that it's time you took a look around you. Because they are killing us. They're not killing all of us. But they're killing people not just at the top government levels, but all the way down to the activists and the people who are going to try to make a difference.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #40
62. Now WHAT family has done business playing BOTH sides in WAR?
Hint: Four letters.
Hint: Starts with a "B."
Hint: Ends with an "ush."

To keep things straightforward... Just with the NAZIs:

How the Bush family made
its fortune from the Nazis

Posted by Robert Lederman
February 9, 2002

Note: This article's author, John Loftus, is a former U.S. Department of Justice Nazi War Crimes prosecutor, the President of the Florida Holocaust Museum and the highly respected author of numerous books on the CIA-Nazi connection including The Belarus Secret and The Secret War Against the Jews, both of which have extensive material on the Bush-Rockefeller-Nazi connection.

Copyright September 27, 2000
by Attorney John Loftus

The Dutch Connection

How a famous American family
made its fortune from the Nazis

For the Bush family, it is a lingering nightmare. For their Nazi clients, the Dutch connection was the mother of all money laundering schemes. From 1945 until 1949, one of the lengthiest and, it now appears, most futile interrogations of a Nazi war crimes suspect began in the American Zone of Occupied Germany. Multibillionaire steel magnate Fritz Thyssen-the man whose steel combine was the cold heart of the Nazi war machine-talked and talked and talked to a joint US-UK interrogation team. For four long years, successive teams of inquisitors tried to break Thyssen's simple claim to possess neither foreign bank accounts nor interests in foreign corporations, no assets that might lead to the missing billions in assets of the Third Reich. The inquisitors failed utterly.

Why? Because what the wily Thyssen deposed was, in a sense, true. What the Allied investigators never understood was that theywere not asking Thyssen the right question. Thyssen did not need any foreign bank accounts because his family secretly owned an entire chain of banks. He did not have to transfer his Nazi assets at the end of World War II, all he had to do was transfer the ownership documents - stocks, bonds, deeds and trusts--from his bank in Berlin through his bank in Holland to his American friends in New York City: Prescott Bush and Herbert Walker. Thyssen's partners in crime were the father and father-in-law of a future President of the United States.

The allied investigators underestimated Thyssen's reach, his connections, his motives, and his means. The web of financial entities Thyssen helped create in the 1920's remained a mystery for the rest of the twentieth century, an almost perfectly hidden underground sewer pipeline for moving dirty money, money that bankrolled the post-war fortunes not only of the Thyssen industrial empire...but the Bush family as well. It was a secret Fritz Thyssen would take to his grave.

It was a secret that would lead former US intelligence agent William Gowen, now pushing 80, to the very doorstep of the Dutch royal family. The Gowens are no strangers to controversy or nobility. His father was one of President Roosevelt's diplomatic emissaries to Pope Pius XII, leading a futile attempt to persuade the Vatican to denounce Hitler's treatment of Jews. It was his son, William Gowen, who served in Rome after World War II as a Nazi hunter and investigator with the U.S. Army Counter Intelligence Corps. It was Agent Gowen who first discovered the secret Vatican Ratline for smuggling Nazis in 1949. It was also the same William Gowen who began to uncover the secret Dutch pipeline for smuggling Nazi money in 1999.


Now, to make things a bit more complex, bring in George Herbert Walker Bush's "good" friend, William Stamps Farish:
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-04 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #40
84. Judge knows the stuff. Remember the "Coup Against FDR"?
The traitorious turds of the BFEE have learned many things over the decades. Today they suspect the average Amurkan has little clue over the techniques they employ. With the tiny protest to the Supreme Court's 5-4 travesty in 2000, they may be right. The following historical example, though, gives us the background and thinking for the current state of American affairs and the people who don't want their wealth taxed to build a better America:

The Attempted Coup Against FDR

By Barbara LaMonica

The John F. Kennedy assassination represents a theme in our political history. The causes, even the inevitability, of the assassination were born out of the power struggles among the ruling elite which are consistent throughout the American story. These struggles revolve around questions of what is the proper role of government vis a vis the business communitys pursuit of its own self-interest. Is the governments role minimal or laissez-faire? Should government only provide a stable environment of "law and order", through increased police powers, conducive to the maximization of profits and the minimization of workers wages and benefits? Or does the government have a higher purpose? Is it responsible for the common good? Is it the one entity capable of implementing justice, equality, and a partial redistribution of wealth through the regulation and taxation of corporations in order to provide a cushion against the more egregious effects of the free market? Should it ensure the workers share in the profits they helped to create?

At various times factions of what has become known as "corporate America" have argued over which role of government is ultimately more advantageous to their own ends. Generally speaking, banking and Wall Street favor less government. Retail, light manufacturing and small to medium size corporations are more tolerant of an activist government which might put more money in the hands of their consumers, and protect small businesses against the unfair competitive practices of larger corporations.

The stock market crash of 1929 and the ensuing Great Depression dramatically thrust the question of governments role to the forefront of American political and corporate life. The election of Franklin Delano Roosevelt represented a revolutionary realignment of political power: the ascendancy of the Democratic party facilitated by new voting coalitions of rural south and industrialized north which dislodged the Republican Partys nearly seventy-year dominance, signaling the abandonment of laissez-faire economics in favor of state regulation. The losers in this political process coalesced into right-wing Republicanism, and the next sixty years of American history is, in part, the story of their attempt to regain power, reinstitute Lassiez-faire policies, and dismantle the New Deal.1 I would like to suggest that the forces behind the assassination of President Kennedy were born in the furies which the Great Depression unleashed between these competing sectors of American political and economic life.

I believe that in 1934 there was a foreshadowing of the JFK assassination. A conspiracy was uncovered in which right-wing elements of big business, namely the DuPont family and the Morgan banking interests, planned to finance and arm a veterans army to march on the White House and hold President Roosevelt captive.2 The conspiracy was reported by two- time Congressional Medal of Honor winner Marine Corps Major General Smedley Darlington Butler. Although the House Committee to Investigate Un-American Activities found his allegations credible, it failed to call major conspirators to testify, and the Committee deleted crucial testimony from its final report to the public. The press relegated the story to the back pages, and discredited those, including Major Butler, who tried to alert the public to the threat against republican government. No prosecutions were forthcoming from the Justice Department, in part because the main witness who would have substantiated Butlers claims died suddenly from pneumonia at the age of 37. In short, there was a cover-up, maybe worse.


A little background on USMC Maj. General Smedley Butler:

War Is A Racket

WAR is a racket. It always has been.

It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives.

A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small "inside" group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes.

In the World War (WW1) a mere handful garnered the profits of the conflict. At least 21,000 new millionaires and billionaires were made in the United States during the World War. That many admitted their huge blood gains in their income tax returns. How many other war millionaires falsified their tax returns no one knows.

How many of these war millionaires shouldered a rifle? How many of them dug a trench? How many of them knew what it meant to go hungry in a rat-infested dug-out? How many of them spent sleepless, frightened nights, ducking shells and shrapnel and machine gun bullets? How many of them parried a bayonet thrust of an enemy? How many of them were wounded or killed in battle?

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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
41. "Fascism will come to America in the name of national security"
Jim Garrison said that. Remember that "nut"?

Here's another one: Mort Sahl, speaking in March 1968 (just weeks before the fascists' one-two punch of MLK and RFK):

"We have to decide. Once the neo-fascists became bold enough to slay the President on the street, they showed their hand. They showed how arrogant they had become. Now it's a question of symptom. That crime was a national symptom. If we can turn our back on that, we will pay a terrible price. That will be the end of this democracy. As a matter of fact, it's been dying since Kennedy's death. We have to cleanse our soul. It's much the same as the French when they regained their national honor, not by framing Dreyfus, but by admitting that they did.

"The minute I made a decision for America and decided to park everything else and go ahead, I suddenly was unemployable, and by an awful lot of people you'd call liberal. I want to make it very clear. The people on the right are not large enough to be an army, but they have an army of indifferent men, men indifferent to terror. The road to fascism is paved with liberal bricks. While our job to give the young people time enough to become radicals, the job of the liberals is to castrate them before they can get to the radical side, before they can save America, in effect. It's wholly incredible to me. If I gave you the names of people in show business who are attempting to supress me, they all qualify as wild-eyed left-wing thinkers, in the popular mind."
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #41
64. To the Reich, JFK was a coward.
Here is a short listing of those who thought JFK should have ordered an all-out attack on the commies in Havana and Moscow and wherever they may live:

Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Lemnitzer was fixated on Cuba.
The Joint Chiefs were fixated on Cuba.
Members of Congress were fixated on Cuba.
Members of the Cabinet were fixated on Cuba.
The right-wing was fixated on Cuba.
Nixon was fixated on Cuba.
Big Oil was fixated on Cuba.
The Mafia was fixated on Cuba.

About the only one in the US Government who wasn't fixated on Cuba was John F. Kennedy. JFK said Cuba wasn't worth starting World War III over. He said so during the cursed Bay of Pigs fiasco and he said the same during the Missiles of October stand-off.

BTW: When JFK was assassinated, who did the US Government start to blame for the murder? Castro!


James H. Fetzer

(Editor's Note: Perhaps without appreciating the importance of his discoveries for understanding the origins of the conspiracy to assassinate John F. Kennedy, James Bamford's BODY OF SECRETS (2001) reveals the preoccupation of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, especially its chairman, Lyman Lemnitzer, with invading Cuba and removing Castro, an approach to which President Kennedy proved an obstacle.)

James Bamford's BODY OF SECRETS (2001) appears to clarify and illuminate the origins of the conspiracy to assassinate John F. Kennedy. Take a good look at pages 78 (bottom) to 91 (top), which discusses President Eisenhower's preoccupation with Cuba and his suggestion that, if no actual pretext for an attack were available, then a pretext (a phony event) might be created that could be used to justify an invasion of the island. Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Army General Lyman Lemnitzer, took this message to heart and became obsessed with the Communist threat and the destruction of Castro. Everyone who cares about our country needs to understand this development. It looks like a large piece of a very complex puzzle.

A report from the Senate Foreign Relations Committee to the President warned of the major problem with right-wing extremism running through the military. "Among the key targets of the extremists, the committee said, was the Kennedy administration's domestic social program, which many ultraconservatives accused of being communistic. The 'thesis of the nature of the Communist threat', the report warned, 'often is developed by equating social legislation with socialism, and the latter with Communism . . .

" . . . much of the administration's domestic legislative program, including continuation of the graduated income tax, expansion of social security (particularly medical care under social security), Federal aid to education, etc., under this philosophy would be characterized as steps toward Communism'. Thus, 'This view of the Communist menace renders foreign aid, cultural exchanges, disarmament negotiations, and other international programs as extremely wasteful if not actually subversive'."

He and Air Force General Edward Lansdale viewed Operation Mongoose, set up to take out Castro, as "a golden opportunity" for the military to show that it could succeed where the CIA (at the Bay of Pigs) had failed. Lemnitzer "was raging at the new and youthful Kennedy White House. He felt out of place and out of time in a culture that seemed suddenly to have turned its back on military traditions. Almost immediately he became, in the clinical sense, paranoid; he began secretly expressing his worries to other senior officers . . . "Lemnitzer had no respect for the civilians he reported to. He believed they interfered with the proper role of the military. The 'civilian' hierarchy was crippled not only by inexperience', he would later say, 'but also by arrogance arisnig from failure to recognize its own limitations. . . . The problem was simply that the civilians would not accept military judgments.'


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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
42. It was the day before my birthday, November 23.
Yes it was.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #42
48. My sis was born on 25 November.
We were celebrating her day when we saw on the TV that Lee Harvey Oswald had been shot. That was a very sad day. That Christmas was especially sad, as well.

Beep Beep! Honk Honk!

Like you, bobthedrummer, she has kept her Spirit. She and her hubby today have a great family.
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-04 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #48
80. We are Thanksgiving kids, I guess. JFK's assassination and the cover-up
is especially recalled on birthdays in that timeframe starting 11-22.

I shook John F. Kennedy's hand one afternoon in Milwaukee, after school, in the 1960 campaign btw.

Immediately knew that the Warren Report was bullshit from the moment I read it-discussed that a lot with kids and adults too.

Then there was the spate of US political assassinations characterized by the "lone nut" assassin model favored in US wetwork.

All that and more resulting in the theft of our government by BFEE, imho.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-04 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #80
83. What was JFK like, bobthedrummer?
Did he look you in the eye when you shook hands?

Was he kind to you and the other then-kids?

What did he say?

The BFEE won a battle and took the life of many of our greatest leaders -- the true American heroes, the Liberals who believe ALL Americans are equal under the law -- but they haven't won the war. They won't, either, as long as there are people who remember John F. Kennedy and what he and Martin Luther King Jr. and Robert F. Kennedy and all the others who stood with them gave their lives for.
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-04 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #83
85. Well his motorcade went past a housing project and he was in an open
convertible when school let out-I remember that he was energetic in acknowledging us kids and had a genuine smile even though the motorcade was probably headed to a scheduled event, there was eye contact too.

Those are my remaining perceptions of that brief childhood moment.
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Massacure Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
45. Call me stupid, but what was the October Surprise?
Also, what was wrong with Desert Shield / Desert Storm?
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #45
50. October Surprise52 U.S. Hostages bargain

Los Angeles Times; April 18, 1991
Written by Alexander Cockburn
The central premise, surely correct, is that back in the fall of 1980 an overriding fear of Ronald Reagan's campaign strategists was that President Jimmy Carter would win the release of U.S. hostages held in Iran in time to get them home before the November election and thus triumph in the polls.

Against this possilibity of an "October Surprise," so the theory goes, such Reagan operatives as the late William J. Casey, campaign boss and subsequent head of the CIA, held secret parleys with the Iranians in which a deal was hatched: The hostages would be held till after the election, and in return the new administration would send arms to Tehran.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #50
63. And Robert Parry's files on October Surprise are a great resource.
Edited on Sat Aug-07-04 04:44 PM by Minstrel Boy
Links here:

A few books on the subject:

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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #45
52. Not in a million years or for a million bucks.
October Surprise refers to the 1980 efforts by members of the Reagan-Bush campaign to avoid the release of Americans held hostage by Iran and hurt Jimmy Carters re-election chances.

There is evidence that members of the Reagan-Bush camp met with representatives of the government of Iran in Washington DC. There are allegations that Bill Casey and George Bush flew to Paris to meet with Iranian higher-ups. The end result is that Iran held the hostages until the minute Pruneface was sworn in.

The story makes sense when one considers that months later, the Reagan-Bush administration gave Israel the OK to send US weapons and spare parts to the Iranians, who were locked in a war with Iraq.

There are several excellent books on the October Surprise available by Barbara Honegger, Gary Sick, Abolhassan Bani Sadr, and Robert Parry.

BTW: One of the people who met with Iranian middlemen in Washington is former Judge Lawrence Silberman, the fellah appointed by George W Bush to head the commission charged with finding out why there were no WMDs in Iraq when US intelligence said there were. Small world.

Heres a good overview:

Heres a link to ConsortiumNews.coms excellent work:

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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
51. November 22, 1910
Federal Reserve Act of 1913. Very interesting stuff I never knew. Donchya love Google?
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. Yes I do. Hey, Tex! Didyahear about a conservative named Milteer?
Seems the Reich tried to get JFK in Miami. Joseph A Milteer bragged about it to an undercover FBI informant. It's no wonder what he was doing in Dallas a couple of weeks later.


Published in The Athens Observer, p. 2A (February 12,1987).

A south Georgian named Joseph Milteer, now dead, represents a second possible Georgia connection to the assassination of President Kennedy. According to FBI documents published by the noted assassinations expert Harold Weisberg in this book Frame-Up in 1971, Joseph Adams Milteer was born in Quitman, Ga., on Feb. 26, 1902. Thus, at the time of the assassination, Milteer was 61 years old. In 1963 he apparently lived in both Quitman and Valdosta. Like many of the persons who were eyewitnesses to Kennedy's death, or who have been suspected of involvement in the Kennedy assassination, Milteer apparently died a violent and unnatural death. According to Robert Groden, a photographic expert who worked for the House Select Committee on Assassinations, Milteer died of burns in 1974 at the age of 72 after a Coleman heating stove exploded.

Information concerning Milteer and his possible connection to the JFK assassination is not new. Milteer's possible connection was first divulged (although his name was not mentioned) in a Miami newspaper in an article by a reporter named Bill Barry as far back as Feb. 2, 1967. The FBI presented information on Milteer to the Warren Commission, although Milteer is not mentioned in the Warren Commission Report or in the 26 volumes published by the Commission.

Who was Joseph Milteer? On this question there is general agreement. Miller was a segregationist and arch-conservative on the far right. In his co-authored book The Plot to Kill the President (1981), G. Robert Blakey, who served as counsel for the House Assassinations Committee, describes Milteer as "a right-wing extremist." Anthony Summers, in his 1980 book Conspiracy, uses similar language ("a known right-wing extremist") to describe Milteer, as does Henry Hurt ("an ultra-right wing Georgia business man" in his Reasonable Doubt, published in 1985, and the best single book on the assassination, Michael Kurtz's Crime of the Century (1982), calls Milteer "a well-known right-wing extremist."

The House Assassinations Committee referred to Milteer variously as "a militant conservative," "a militant right-wing organizer,"and "a right-wing extremist." Milteer was apparently associated with the National States Rights Party and the White Citizens Council and actively opposed to integration and social justice.

On the morning of Nov. 9, 1963, two weeks before the Kennedy assassination, Milteer engaged in a conversation in a Miami hotel room with a man named Willie Somersett. Apparently unknown to Milteer, Somersett (who died in 1970), was an informer for the police who surreptitiously tape-recorded the conversation. The tape was promptly turned over to local Miami police, who then forwarded it to federal authorities. The taped conversation was revealed for the first time publicly in the Miami News in February 1967, although Milteer's named was not mentioned. The Miami News article was quoted at length (again without mentioning Milteer's name) in Harold Weisberg's Oswald in New Orleans, also published in 1967. In 1971 in Frame-Up Weisberg published a transcript of the taped conversation, together with various FBI documents relating to Milteer. This time Milteer's name was given. In 1979 the House Assassinations Committee included information on Milteer in several of its published volumes, and quoted verbatim an excerpt from the transcript of his Nov. 9, 1963 conversation with Somersett.

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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. No I didn't
Thanks for the info. My parents are huge JFK fans as am I. My Dad will be interested in your research into this topic and so, I am sending this and other links you have provided, to him. Thanks!
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. You're welcome, texasblueeyes! Here's what Milteer said...
Almost two weeks before the assassination, this was recorded by a police informant. The Miami police forwarded the info to the FBI. What J Edgar Hoover did with it is anybody's guess.

NOVEMBER 9, 1963

Information received by electronic device on Nov 9, 1963 by the Intelligence Unit of the Miami Police Dept, Miami, Fla.



Subject: The more bodyguards he has the more easier it is to get him.

Informant: Well how in the hell do you figure would be the best way to get him?

Subject: From an office building with a high powered rifle, how many people (room noise tape not legible) does he have going around who look just like him? Do you know about that?

Informant: No, I never heard that he had anybody.

Subject: He has got them.

Informant: He has?

Subject: He has about fifteen. Whenever he goes any place they (not legible) he knows he is a marked man.

Informant: You think he knows he is a marked man?

Subject: Sure he does.

Informant: They are really going to try to kill him?

Subject: Oh, yeah, it is in the working. Brown himself, Brown is just as likely to get him as anybody. He hasn't said so, but he tried to get Martin Luther King.

Informant: He did.

Subject: Oh yes, he followed him for miles and miles, and couldn't get close enough to him.


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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
60. Why does this still matter? I'll tell you why:
Edited on Sat Aug-07-04 03:51 PM by Minstrel Boy
"Who controls the past controls the future; who controls the present controls the past."

Think Orwell was kidding? No chance.

Until America gets its history right, I'm pessimistic about its future.

You da fish, Octafish! :toast:
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #60
65. Ever'body might be just one big soul


Tom Joad got out of the old McAlester Pen
There he got his parole
After four long years on a man killing charge
Tom Joad come a walking down the road, poor boy
Tom Joad come a walking down the road

Tom Joad he met a truck driving man
There he caught him a ride He said: "I just got loose from
McAlester's Pen On a charge called Homicide, A charge called

That truck rolled away in a cloud of dust,
Tommy turned his face toward home,
He met Preacher Casey and they had a little drink,
But they found that his family they was gone,
He found that his family they was gone.
He found his mother's old fashion shoe
Found his daddy's hat.
And he found little Muley and Muley said:
"They've been tractored out by the cats,
They've been tractored out by the cats."

Tom Joad walked down to the neighbors farm
Found his family.
They took Preacher Casey and loaded in a car
And his mother said "We got to git away."
His mother said 'We got to get away."

Now the twelve of the Joads made a mighty heavy load
But Grandpa Joad did cry.
He picked up a handful of land in his hand
Said: "I'm stayin' with the farm till I die.
Yes, I'm stayin' with my farm till I die."

They fed him short ribs and coffee and soothing syrup
And Grandpa Joad did die.
They buried Grandpa Joad by the side of the road,
Buried Grandma on the California side,
They buried Grandma on the California side.

They stood on a Mountain and they looked to the West And it
looked like the promised land. That bright green valley with a
river running through, There was work for every single hand, they
thought, There was work for every single hand.
The Joads rolled away to Jungle Camp, There they cooked a stew.
And the hungry little kids of the Jungle Camp Said: "We'd like to
have some too." Said: "We'd like to have some too."

Now a Deputy Sheriff fired loose at a man
Shot a woman in the back.
Before he could take his aim again
Preacher Casey dropped him in his track.
Preacher Casey dropped him in his track.

They handcuffed Casey and they took him to Jail
And then he got away.
And he met Tom Joad on the old river bridge,
And these few words he did say, poor boy,
These few words he did say.

"I preached for the Lord a mighty long time
Preached about the rich and the poor.
Us workin' folks got to all get together,
Cause we ain't got a chance anymore.
We ain't got a chance anymore."

The Deputies come and Tom and Casey run
To the bridge where the water run down.
But the vigilante they hit Casey with a club,
They laid Preacher Casey on the ground.
They laid Preacher Casey on the ground.

Tom Joad he grabbed that Deputy's club
Hit him over the head.
Tom Joad took flight in the dark rainy night
A Deputy and a Preacher lying dead, two men,
A Deputy and a Preacher lying dead.

Tom run back where his mother was asleep
He woke her up out of bed.
Then he kissed goodbye to the mother that he loved
Said what Preacher Casey said, Tom Joad,
He said what Preacher Casey said.

"Ever'body might be just one big soul
Well it looks that a way to me.
Everywhere that you look in the day or night
That's where I'm gonna be, Ma,
That's where I'm gonna be.

Wherever little children are hungry and cry
Wherever people ain't free.
Wherever men are fightin' for their rights
That's where I'm gonna be, Ma.
That's where I'm a gonna be.


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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
61. Thankgiving Day falls on November 22nd this year.....
just wanted to share :7
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #61
71. Thanks, Elsewheresita!
The day is just under three weeks after the election. If we spread the word about the real Bush associations, it'll change a lot of minds. If we spread the word about the kind of person John F. Kennedy was and John F. Kerry is, the vote won't need a recount.

The age of kids, then, at war.

The age of kids, then, at war.
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bigwillq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 06:09 PM
Response to Original message
67. This is a wonderful and interesting post
Wonderful because you brought up in just a few paragraphs the power of a true American leader who did some great things for this country.

Interesting because of that list. I also thought your final sentence was very well put!

Thank you for this post!
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #67
73. You're welcome, bigwillq! The BFEE's been going gangbusters erver since.
When it comes to the Bush Transnational Criminal Enterprise ("If the President does it, it's not illegal." -- Richard M. Nixon), things for America only go from badder to worster. Many have paid for what they knew with their lives, health and sanity. The guy who wrote the following, for instance, a real journalist:

Paul Kangas

JFK ASSASSINATION: The Nixon-Bush Connection


Most of the CIA leadership around the invasion of Cuba seems to have been people from Texas. A whole Texan branch of the CIA is based in the oil business. If we trace Bush's background in the Texas oil business we discover his two partners in the oil-barge leasing business: Texan Robert Mosbacher and Texan James Baker. Mosbacher is now Secretary of Commerce and Baker is Secretary of State, the same job Dulles held when JFK was killed. (Source: Common Cause magazine, 3-4/90).

On the Watergate tapes, June 23, 1972, referred to in the media as the "smoking gun" conversation, Nixon and his Chief of Staff, H.R.
Haldeman, discussed how to stop the FBI investigation into the CIA Watergate burglary. They were worried that the investigation would expose their connection to "the Bay of Pigs thing." Haldeman, in his book The Ends of Power, reveals that Nixon always used code words when talking about the 1963 murder of JFK. Haldeman said Nixon would always refer to the assassination as "the Bay of Pigs." On that transcript we find Nixon discussing the role of George Bush's partner, Robert Mosbacher, as one of the Texas fundraisers for Nixon. On the tapes Nixon keeps refering to the "Cubans" and the "Texans." The "Texans" were Bush, Mosbacher and Baker. This is another direct link between Bush and evidence linking Nixon and Bush to the Kennedy assassination.

In the same discussion Nixon links "the Cubans," "the Texans," "Helms," "Hunt," "Bernard Barker," Robert "Mosbacher" and "the Bay of Pigs." Over and over on the Watergate tapes, these names come up around the discussion of the photos from Dallas that Nixon was trying to obtain when he ordered the CIA to burglarize the Watergate. (Source: Three Men and a Barge", Teresa Riordan, Common Cause magazine, March/April 1990, and San Francisco Chronicle, May 7,1977, interview with Frank Sturgis in which he stated that "the reason we burglarized the Watergate was because Nixon was interested in stopping news leaking related to the photos of our role in the assassination of President John Kennedy.")

After Nixon's landslide victory in 1972, he knew he had to centralize all power into the White House to keep his faction in power, not only to hold power, but to prevent the media from digging into how he secretly shot his way into the White House, just like Hitler shot his way into control of Germany. The first thing Nixon did was to demand signed resignations of his entire government. "Eliminate everyone," he told John Ehrlichman about reappointment, "except George Bush. Bush will do anything for our cause." (Source: Pledging Allegiance, Sidney Blumenthal.)

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wicket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 10:07 PM
Response to Original message
72. Great picture
Thank-you for posting it.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #72
74. Thanks, wicket!
You're welcome!

BTW: Wouldn't it be great to have a
Real President who knew what he was doing.
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Geo55 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #74
77. ..

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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-04 12:54 AM
Response to Original message
78. United States Foreign Policy Exposed - KILLING HOPE

By Rosemarie Jackowski
Saturday, August 07, 2004

For the past 50-plus years, the foreign policy of the United States, has taken the U.S. military around the globe, exploiting one nation after another. This creeping imperialism is causing concern all around the world. Author Chalmers Johnson states that the U.S. has 6,000 bases in 130 countries. What the U.S. cannot get with bribes and indecent maneuvers in the UN, it gets with bombs. An updated list of the countries that the U.S. has bombed since WW 2, as compiled by historian William Blum follows: China (1945-46), Korea (1950-53), China (1950-53), Guatemala (1954), Indonesia (1958), Cuba (1959-60), Guatemala (1960), Congo (1964), Peru (1965), Laos (1964-73), Vietnam (1961-73), Cambodia (1969-70), Guatemala (1967-69), Grenada (1983), Libya (1986), El Salvador (1980), Panama (1989), Iraq (1991-2004), Sudan (1998), Afghanistan (1998-2003), Yugoslavia (1999). This is only a partial list. It does not contain the countries, such as Colombia, where the secret U.S. army of mercenaries is doing the bombing. It does not list locations that were bombed and contaminated as testing sites, such as Vieques.

Which country will be next? Will it be Korea or Cuba, France or Finland? No one knows, and no one is safe until U.S. foreign policy is changed. In studying the William Blum list of bombed countries, it becomes apparent that countries with a brown-eyed population are at increased risk. If you are not frightened yet, you have not been paying attention to recent world history. During the March 13, 2002 White House press conference, President Bush stated that all options were on the table. This comment, by President Bush, came just days after the Pentagons Revised Nuclear Posture Review was leaked to the Los Angles Times. In it, the Pentagon named seven countries that were potential targets of a U.S. NUCLEAR strike. Still not frightened? You better check out what happened to the people of Diego Garcia, when the U.S. military decided that it wanted their island as a military base.

For all of the people around the world, who are waiting for the citizens of the United States to stop this 50-year long killing and bombing spree, I have bad news. Most U.S. citizens know more about their favorite sports teams than they do about foreign policy. Do not look to them for help. Somehow, along the way, something happened to the U.S. national conscience. When the Pentagon used the dehumanizing term, collateral damage, to refer to the slaughter of civilians, not one member of the press ever spoke up and said, No, not collateral damage. Those are human beings. Even worse, the press adopted and repeated, without question, the language of the Pentagon. U.S. citizens never got to see the face of the little Iraqi girl, killed by a U.S. cluster bomb. The press is so deeply embedded in the government, that the Truth no longer exists.

Rosemarie Jackowski lives in Bennington, Vt. She was arrrested in a peaceful protest against the U.S. invasion of Iraq on March 20, 2003 and is currently awaiting trial with the possibility of a prison sentence. She can be reached at .
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-04 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #78
79. Notice the bombing gap between 1961 and 1964.
From seemlikeadream's source:

An updated list of the countries that the U.S. has bombed since WW 2, as compiled by historian William Blum follows: China (1945-46), Korea (1950-53), China (1950-53), Guatemala (1954), Indonesia (1958), Cuba (1959-60), Guatemala (1960), Congo (1964), Peru (1965), Laos (1964-73), Vietnam (1961-73), Cambodia (1969-70), Guatemala (1967-69), Grenada (1983), Libya (1986), El Salvador (1980), Panama (1989), Iraq (1991-2004), Sudan (1998), Afghanistan (1998-2003), Yugoslavia (1999).

End of quote.

Gee. Why don't the media cover this seemingly important fact? When the US had a Liberal President, one who actually believed all human life is precious, the nation did not bomb other countries. Instead President Kennedy invented the Peace Corps, an organization founded to change the world through good works. Oh well. All that changed back to normal on November 23, 1963.

Have you read NSAM 263 and NSAM 273?



Secretary of State

Secretary of Defense

Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

SUBJECT: South Vietnam

At a meeting on October 5, 1963, the President considered the recommendations contained in the report of Secretary McNamara and General Taylor on their mission to South Vietnam.

The President approved the military recommendations contained in Section I B (1-3) of the report, but directed that no formal announcement be made of the implementation of plans to withdraw 1,000 U.S. military personnel by the end of 1963.

After discussion of the remaining recommendations of the report, the President approved the instruction to Ambassador Lodge which is set forth in State Department telegram No. 534 to Saigon.

McGeorge Bundy

Then, THREE DAYS later, President Johnson ordered the OPPOSITE in NSAM 273, committing the United States to war in Vietnam...


NOVEMBER 26, 1963

TO: The Secretary of State
The Secretary of Defense
The Director of Central Intelligence
The Administrator, AID
The Director, USIA

The President has reviewed the discussions of South Vietnam which occurred in Honolulu, and has discussed the matter further with Ambassador Lodge. He directs that the following guidance be issued to all concerned:

1. It remains the central object of the United States in South Vietnam to assist the people and Government of that country to win their contest against the externally directed and supported Communist conspiracy. The test of all U.S. decisions and actions in this area should be the effectiveness of their contribution to this purpose.

2. The objectives of the United States with respect to the withdrawal of U.S. military personnel remain as stated in the White House statement of October 2, 1963.

3. It is a major interest of the United States Government that the present provisional government of South Vietnam should be assisted in consolidating itself and in holding and developing increased public support. All U.S. officers should conduct themselves with this objective in view.

4. The President expects that all senior officers of the Government will move energetically to insure the full unity of support for established U.S. policy in South Vietnam. Both in Washington and in the field, it is essential that the Government be unified. It is of particular importance that express or implied criticism of officers of other branches be scrupulously avoided in all contacts with the Vietnamese Government and with the press. More specifically, the President approves the following lines of action developed in the discussions of the Honolulu meeting of November 20. The offices of the Government to which central responsibility is assigned are indicated in each case.

5. We should concentrate our own efforts, and insofar as possible we should persuade the Government of South Vietnam to concentrate its efforts, on the critical situation in the Mekong Delta. This concentration should include not only military but political, economic, social, educational and informational effort. We should seek to turn the tide not only of battle but of belief, and we should seek to increase not only the control of hamlets but the productivity of this area, especially where the proceeds can be held for the advantage of anti-Communist forces

.(Action: The whole country team under the direct supervision of the Ambassador.)

6. Programs of military and economic assistance should be maintained at such levels that their magnitude and effectiveness in the eyes of the Vietnamese Government do not fall below the levels sustained by the United States in the time of the Diem Government. This does not exclude arrangements for economy on the MAP account with respect to accounting for ammunition, or any other readjustments which are possible between MAP and other U.S. defense resources. Special attention should be given to the expansion of the import, distribution, and effective use of fertilizer for the Delta.

(Action: AID and DOD as appropriate.)

7. Planning should include different levels of possible increased activity, and in each instance there should he estimates of such factors as:

A. Resulting damage to North Vietnam;
B. The plausibility of denial;
C. Possible North Vietnamese retaliation;
D. Other international reaction.

Plans should be submitted promptly for approval by higher authority.

(Action: State, DOD, and CIA.)

8. With respect to Laos, a plan should be developed and submitted for approval by higher authority for military operations up to a line up to 50 kilometers inside Laos, together with political plans for minimizing the international hazards of such an enterprise. Since it is agreed that operational responsibility for such undertakings should pass from CAS to MACV, this plan should include a redefined method of political guidance for such operations, since their timing and character can have an intimate relation to the fluctuating situation in Laos. (Action: State, DOD, and CIA.)

9. It was agreed in Honolulu that the situation in Cambodia is of the first importance for South Vietnam, and it is therefore urgent that we should lose no opportunity to exercise a favorable influence upon that country. In particular a plan should be developed using all available evidence and methods of persuasion for showing the Cambodians that the recent charges against us are groundless.

(Action: State.)

10. In connection with paragraphs 7 and 8 above, it is desired that we should develop as strong and persuasive a case as possible to demonstrate to the world the degree to which the Viet Cong is controlled, sustained and supplied from Hanoi, through Laos and other channels. In short, we need a more contemporary version of the Jordan Report, as powerful and complete as possible.

(Action: Department of State with other agencies as necessary.

Mc George Bundy

cc: Mr. Bundy
Mr. Forestal
Mr. Johnson
NSC File

Note the phrase in Paragraph 7.b: "The plausibility of denial."

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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-04 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #79
so they missed a couple of years, it's really hard trying to rule the world you know!

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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-04 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #81
82. The LITTLE Sheriff
George Bush Jr. Against the Rest of the World.

Yes. Our German cousins truly understand the Little Turd from Crawford.

Of course, they know a dictator when they see one. DUers can learn how, too, with "The Nazification of America Phase III" from Hermes Press:

Der Smirkelgrber.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #81
87. JFK assassination: ten simple facts (from Minstrel Boy)
A good start for people interested in learning United States history unsanitized by the Bush Organized Crime Family:
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