PLAME INDICTMENTS THREAD 8 -High Crimes & Misdemeanors

[Pallas180]

Links to previous 7 threads

If and when indictments come down in the Plame case,

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

300+ DU thread now as MSWord.doc (easier download)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

If and when indictments come down in the Plame case-thread2
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Plame indictments.....Thread 3
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Plame indictments.....Thread 4
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Plame indictments.....Thread 5
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Plame indictments......thread 6
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Plame indictments .... thread 7
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1987271&mesg_id=1987271&page=

_____________________________________________________________________

BELOW ARE LETTERS/GUIDES TO FAX/EMAIL/SNAIL MAIL TO CONGRESS & MEDIA TO JOG THEM INTO ACTION & INCLUDING A TOLL FREE PHONE NUMBER

278. CONTACT CONGRESS & LEADERSHIP ADDRESSES:


Fax Numbers of US Congress

http://www.no-smoking.org/feb97/2-17-97-01.html


Congressional Leadership

http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/cgi-bin/leadership.cg ...


Congressional Committees & Subcommittees

http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/cgi-bin/committee_lis ...


Misc. Contact Congress

http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/search.html


CALIMARY MEDIA & EDITORS CONTACT LIST


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph ...


Updated Calimary list

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph ...


Individual Reporters & Newspaper List

forgive me, it's on the drudge rag site, but it's useful

http://www.drudgereport.com /
_______________________________________________________________
1 (800) 839 - 5276 - TOLL FREE Capitol Hill Switchboard number! They'll transfer you to any House/Senate office you name!



H20's SUGGESTED LETTER TO MEDIA & CONGRESS

for you to copy or use as a guide to send:
Here's a suggestion ......


Dear _________;

I am writing to express my concerns about on-going efforts to discredit Ambassador Joseph Wilson. In his NYT Op-Ed article "What I Didn't Find In Africa," Wilson exposed a claim by President Bush in his 2003 State of the Union Address to be untrue. Since that time, the White House has been involved in an effort to destroy Wilson's reputation, which included exposing his wife as a CIA operative.

In John Dean's review of Wilson's book (NYT Book Review; 5-23-04; pg9) he documents that two days after the op-ed article ran, journalist Robert Novak was telling people that Wilson's wife Valerie Plame was a CIS "weapons of mass destruction specialist."

Novak exposed Plame's identity in a 7-14-03 column. He sourced his story to two "senior administration officials." These two senior White House officials had lobbied at least six journalists to expose Plame in what Dean calls a "you-hurt-us-we-will-hurt-you warning" to those tempted to expose administration "misinformation."

When Wilson appeared on MSNBC's "Countdown," host Keith Olbermann held up three identical e-mails from the White House. Olbermann explained their intent was to discredit Wilson with their "talking points."

Wilson has noted that Sandy Berger, President Clinton's national security advisor pointed out that since the Bush people never back down, the fact that they had admitted an error after the op-ed article indicated "they must have something more important to protect." (The Politics of Truth, by Wilson; pg4)

Joseph Klein's 7-5-04 article in Time (Plenty More to Swear About; pg 21) reveals that Plame was "active in a sting operation involving the trafficking of WMD components" when her identity was exposed by the White House. "Only a high-ranking official could have had access to the knowledge that Plame was on the pay-roll," an intelligence source told Klein.

There is clearly more to this story than the White House and senate republicans are willing to tell the public. What investigation by Plame needed to be derailed by the White House? I hope that national leaders and the media will focus attention on this important issue.

Sincerely,


____________________________________________________________________

KOHO'S SHORT & SWEET SUGGESTED LETTER TO SEND


Dear_________;

I am writing about the outing of CIA Agent Valerie Plame. It seems that the Grand jury Investigation has wrapped up or will soon, but little has been mentioned of late. What may have been political payback to Joe Wilson for refuting the Niger yellowcake claims in the State of the Union address could have actually made this country a great deal less safe. According to Joseph Klein (Time 7-5-04--Plenty More to Swear About), Plame may have been "active in a sting operation involving the trafficking of WMD components." If this is true (or even a possibility, those responsible must be brought to justice. I submit that underground trafficking of WMD components presents a far more imminent threat to our country than Saddam Hussein did. In my mind this certainly achieves the status of "High Crimes," and I urge you to not let this issue fall by the wayside. The security of our country may have been irretrievably harmed by a few high ranking officials and they must be brought to task.

Sincerely,


_____________________________________________________________________
PALLAS' 'GIVE EM HELL' SUGGESTED LETTER

Dear ____________


Concerning Time magazine's Joe Klein's July 5 article, page 21 revealed that Valerie Plame was "active in a sting operation involving the trafficking of Weapons of Mass Destruction components"" when her identity was exposed by the White House. It also said" Only a high-ranking official could have had access to the knowledge" that Valerie Plame was a covert CIA agent.

1) Our study group has found that Vice President Cheney since 1995 as CEO of Halliburton was fined 1.2 milion dollars for illegal sales of similar components to Libya. Shortly before becoming Vice President he bitterly assailed US policy against selling such components to Syrria and Iran, which apparently hurt Halliburton's bottom line.

2) Our study group has also found that there is an investigation of Vice President Cheney in other countries for illegal bribery and various other offenses connected to Halliburton as well as paying amounts to secret Swiss bank accounts

3)The Atomic Energy Commission has said a North American company is one of 20 being investigated for black market sales of WMD materials.

Our study group suspects there is more to the White House revealing Valerie Plame's covert CIA status since the Republicans refuse to hold investigations on the matter.

Frankly, it would appear to us that possibly Valerie Plame was stopped in her tracks and the CIA sting operation was exposed because it was coming close to discovering another violation of the laws by our own Vice President and the Hallibuton company he has awarded billions of US taxpayer dollars to in non-bid contracts.

There is a question of where the Vice President's and President's loyalty lies: to their Corporate friends and company's bottom line or to the security and wellbeing of the America.n people?

In any case, the exposure of Valerie Plame by the White House was and is treasonous.

The responsibility of the Media and Congress is to expose these wrong doings, investigate and safeguard against this type of occurrence for the American people.

WHY are you not fulfilling your role to me, to my study group, and the rest of the American people in this country and WHEN will you start ?


Sincerely

___________________________________________________________________
Arbustochupa's lettter

Dear _________;

I am writing to express my concerns about on-going efforts to discredit Ambassador Joseph Wilson. In his NYT Op-Ed article "What I Didn't Find In Africa," Wilson exposed a claim by President Bush in his 2003 State of the Union Address to be untrue. Since that time, the White House has been involved in an effort to destroy Wilson's reputation, which included exposing his wife as a CIA operative.

In John Dean's review of Wilson's book (NYT Book Review; 5-23-04; pg9) he documents that two days after the op-ed article ran, journalist Robert Novak was telling people that Wilson's wife Valerie Plame was a CIS "weapons of mass destruction specialist."

Novak exposed Plame's identity in a 7-14-03 column. He sourced his story to two "senior administration officials." These two senior White House officials had lobbied at least six journalists to expose Plame in what Dean calls a "you-hurt-us-we-will-hurt-you warning" to those tempted to expose administration "misinformation."

When Wilson appeared on MSNBC's "Countdown," host Keith Olbermann held up three identical e-mails from the White House. Olbermann explained their intent was to discredit Wilson with their "talking points."

Wilson has noted that Sandy Berger, President Clinton's national security advisor pointed out that since the Bush people never back down, the fact that they had admitted an error after the op-ed article indicated "they must have something more important to protect." (The Politics of Truth, by Wilson; pg4)

Joseph Klein's 7-5-04 article in Time (Plenty More to Swear About; pg 21) reveals that Plame was "active in a sting operation involving the trafficking of WMD components" when her identity was exposed by the White House. "Only a high-ranking official could have had access to the knowledge that Plame was on the pay-roll," an intelligence source told Klein.

There is clearly more to this story than the White House and senate republicans are willing to tell the public. What investigation by Plame needed to be derailed by the White House? I hope that national leaders and the media will focus attention on this important issue.

Sincerely,

___________________________________________________________________

[Pallas180]

1. LINK TO STOP PATRIOT ACT ENACTMENTS

shraby (1000+ posts) Tue Jul-13-04 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #1

15. Link to ACLU concerning Patriot ACT II

Edited on Tue Jul-13-04 10:41 PM by shraby
They want to pass a piece of Patriot Act II which will expand the death penalty for civil disobedience?

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph... >

[Pallas180]

3. There's a petition for Carter Foundation to monitor elections - does

anyone have the link?

[Jacobin]

4. The Carter Foundation won't monitor elections

unless a country has uniform voting procedures.

Our elections are un-monitorable............sigh.........

[Pallas180]

7. Strike 2 - the UN said no also. Call up your polling places I guess

and find out how to be poll monitor.

Last time I volunteered for the Dems, and I was assigned a polling place and given phone number to Dem lawyers to report anything funny.

They used the electronic voting machines, and a tape came out the
back saying how many votes were made...but no receipt was ever given to the voter.

We need to go back to paper ballots - until there's no way to hack
those computers and until they give out recorded vote for recount.

[burrowowl]

36. It is the parties who

send monitors to the polls, so call your DNC or Green Party HQs. To be an election judge or clerk call the county clerk or secretary of state.
This election I strongly recommend getting involved at the polls. I will be an election judge.
Also you can ask your Party HQ about driving people to the polls.
In the mean time start getting people to register. Time is running out in about a month people will start sending in their absentee ballots.

[Pallas180]

64. SmilingThis's Florida Burrow-They're registered but votes not counted here

:)

[Pallas180]

29. Welcome Jacobin, glad to have you add to the discourse.

:hi:

[Wind Dancer]

6. Great job Pallas180

for putting it all together like this. Thanks to everybody else for contributing to these great threads - our mission is alive and growing.

[Pallas180]

8. What a great group of people. Think Tank. Schraby has come

up with an acronym for us:

C.R.U.S.H.

CITIZENS for RESTORING UNITED STATES HONOR

What do you think?

too militaristic or just right?

We want to crush the crooks - but will people think we're militaristic
when they see the initials?

[iconoclastic cat]

11. Good name, but a little porn-site-ish

[Pallas180]

14. hee hee - pornsiteish? okay - how about an acronym because

we're not going away.

Citizens for Restoring United States ?

CRUS

Constitution? crusc

liberties crusl

????

citizens for restoring united states TODAY
crust?????

The thugs always name theirs something that sounds like mom and applie pie but in actuality is always the opposite...like MOM actually means VAmpire

[iconoclastic cat]

17. Don't get me wrong: definitely use CRUSH.

It evokes both power and sexuality, both of which are always big sellers.

[calimary]

56. I'm sure it'll be a dirty word to the enemy. And yes. Think tank.

That's because, as this single series of threads has VERY clearly demonstrated, we here at DU have all the attributes of an honest-to-goodness (INDEED! In OUR case, anyway) Think Tank.

I mentioned this in an email to EarlG a few weeks ago, after bringing it up a couple of times in trial-balloon fashion.

Assuming a Kerry/Edwards win, especially, but even if not, come November, we may want to consider repositioning ourselves for the sake of clout and credibility, and maybe, ultimately, some grant support or other financial something-or-others. We need to be the Ninja Angel arm of the Democratic Party, a powerful and instant-reaction/rapid-response resource, an extra set of hands, MANY extra sets of brains, and even a little bit of conscience thrown in. Yes thre's the the Center for American Progress. Yes there's the Brookings Institution. Yes there are others, but there are also think tanks galore out there buttressing the efforts of the republi-CON party all over the map. THERE IS NO REASON WHY WE DEMOCRATS CANNOT AND SHOULD NOT HAVE THE SAME EMBARRASSMENT OF RICHES/RESOURCES, EITHER.

Consider: We have everything a good, proactive, enterprising, effective, influential think tank should have.

Among our numbers (just those we know of), there are
- researchers/librarians
- strategists/strategic planners
- academics/teachers
- historians
- writers/journalists
- pollsters/statisticians/analysts
- front men/women and other people savvy in pr/public speaking
- government insiders/politicians/policy makers
- finance/sales people
- internet specialists
- activists/organizers
- designers/art directors/artists
- management people/executives
- psychologists/attorneys/medical and other professionals
- philosophers/religious people
- domestic and international members
- a vast and varied representation of American society, many of whom can speak to (and from) specific segments of the population regarding race, religion, age, and sexual orientation, and the issues that concern them. This broad spectrum of experience better informs, leavens and empowers our influence, objectives, and lobbying potential.

Eventually, we may wish to evolve, in the interest of having more muscle to flex (perhaps more financial muscle), and with which to be taken more seriously. Many of us have, from time to time, expressed the wish to be able to have an impact, and to make a difference. As fellows of the Democratic Underground Think Tank, we might just do that. The opposition will misunderestimate us - at their peril.

JUST A THOUGHT.

[iconoclastic cat]

59. More thoughts:

calimary:
First: I'm a fan of your work here at DU. Thanks for your lists!

I feel the need to add another subgroup to your list of DU assets: --Teachers/professors/education professionals

Have you read Paulo Freire? If not, you and everyone else at DU must read Pedagogy of the Oppressed. Freire states that a specific model of discourse is compatible with fighting oppression, and many teachers whom I have met have incorporated this into their teaching practices--sometimes at great risk to their careers. I spoke to Jonathan Kozol last year, and he said to a group of us, "Be mischievous. Tell the bureaucrats what they want to hear, then close the door and teach your kids to think, and to tell truth from lies."

I suppose my point in this is to say that a DU think tank could use teachers' input in a variety of capacities, from voter education to helping to set Dept. of Ed policy; in addition, there are those who are in the position of inoculating children from the awful malaise that characterizes those who we deride as "sheeple."

More thoughts for the tank.

[StandUpGuy]

79. I want to send my kids to your school

When i have some.

But I've often thought that I'm going to be ALL over my kids teachers and administrators to make sure they don't try and teach my, or any other kids lies.

Might be wishful thinking but I have thought about it quite a bit.

Your post rocked !

[BeFree]

63. Good thinking, calimary, I like it.

A logical extension of the Think Tank would be a paid DU Think Tank Lobbyist, don't ya think? For a couple of bucks a year from each of us, we could have a DC based person actually working the halls of congress spreading our 'Thinks' and reporting back to us.

Wouldn't it be nice to have someone reporting almost daily from DC? Reports not only about the reaction to our 'Thinks', but also leads, pending actions and a continuing who's who of insiders willing to take what we give 'em.

Yes, it would take a fair share of organization, but if we could put it together, it would be a first for the American people!

[Pallas180]

76. Dont you think the fastest way to turn people off is to

start asking them for money?

[BeFree]

80. Turn off?

If there is no money, there is no DU lobbyist. Do ya not like the idea of a DU lobbyist? If not, why not, what's wrong with the idea?

Heck, I'd donate some pretty good coin to a DU lobbyist if ya'll could get one lined up.

[calimary]

103. Yes, this is an EXCELLENT idea.

The whole idea of having more voices speaking for US, the Good Guys, the NO LONGER Silenced Majority, is good. It's what we need. Whichever way it's organized, it's a good idea.

The reason the wrong-wing has been allowed to run roughshod over everything is because not enough people stood up to object, or to stop them, or even just to call 'em on it. And certainly nobody, up til recently, was there ready, willing, and able to hit back.

I would just like to see a huge pendulum swing to the proper side, to correct the many many wrongs that have been perpetrated on our country and its citizens. It's time to outshout the limbaughs, hannitys, Pox "news" networks, et al!

[Eloriel]

106. I LOVE that idea!

Absolutely outstanding.

[kohodog]

70. Don't forget the instigators, antagonists

Like a little brother or sisters who like to keep things stirred up a bit and who bring a slightly different perspective.

"I'm not touching you!"

[Pallas180]

75. "Eventually, we may wish to evolve"

Calimary,

yes, we kicked this around a bit on two previous threads....but
certainly didn't put it as well as you have.

But we wouldn't call ourselves Democratic Underground anything - sounds subversive - and as far as finances go - or non profit -
it would be nice to apply for a grant from the repbulican govt before
they shut off that supply. :)

But first, looking at the immediate goal, is the election.
All plans hinge on the election and how it goes. After that there's time for a long term upstanding brilliant think-tank of all the minds on here to take its place in the world - maybe.

First comes planning how we will get in touch with each other in the event 1)they steal the election or 2)there is no election and/or 3) there is martial law.

If K/E doesn't get in, I doubt we will have to be thinking about a formal think tank concerned with liberties.

The point is to pre-plan contact and itinerary in the event this misadministration takes extreme action, which obviously have been part of their plan from 1980 when Ollie first wrote the pre-cursor to the Patriot Act and the Executive Orders for FEMA=HSA

Some have already e mailed me and we will be setting up a separate
chat room away from DU. So if your interested send me an internal
e mail. (Of course you're interested.)

But planning openly online here isn't the wisest.

[calimary]

104. This is ALL good, Pallas.

Eyes on the Prize, Guys!

(And yes, I emailed you!)

[ralps]

120. How do I send an internal e-mail

ralps

[coeur_de_lion]

154. ralps

go to one of Pallas' posts and click on the mail icon (sends email) or on the squiggly lines/letter icon to send a private message.

[coeur_de_lion]

191. I'm curious, calimary -- what did EarlG think of the idea?

I love it.

[Pallas180]

65. Laughing. ICONO=power and sexuality? crush is sexual? I dont think I want

to come to your house. rofl :)

[iconoclastic cat]

82. That's just the copywriter in me talking.

I still think about branding. Even though I am now very anti-corporate.

[calimary]

114. Nothing wrong with thinking about branding.

It's memorable and clever. Far better for imbedding in the mind. My dad was a sales guy, and was very good at thinking up catchy slogans and buzz phrases and branding concepts. I hope I learned something from him.

It's ALWAYS good. Catchy phrases. Look at how well they succeed, and how memorable they are, how they stand the test of time. Think Johnnie Cochran ("if it doesn't fit, you must acquit" - whether you agree with it or not, you REMEMBER it!). Think Muhammed Ali - ("float like a butterfly, sting like a bee," and "rope-a-dope." DECADES OLD by now, but still memorable as though it were a half-hour ago. ALWAYS effective. Rhyming and/or alliteration is MOST useful. And a little sparkle of humor writes them into your brain with permanent tattoo ink.

I guess it's designed to play to the short-attention-span mentality, that loves quick-fixes, fun, stuff that's not too challenging/easy to grasp. Whatever. Like they say in radio contests - it's "the phrase that pays." Because it DOES.

[Pallas180]

115. CRUSH the corruption! ? CRUSH the cabal? crush em like cockroaches

you can tell I'm angry! not coming up with any humorous slogan (:

[Pallas180]

124. Got it" I Got A C.R.U.S.H. On You"to tune of the song & less threatening

what do you think of that

Citizens Restoring United States Honor

or Honesty

[Pallas180]

126. Got it."I Got A CRUSH On You"to tune of the song ? CRUSH

Citizens Restoring United States Honesty

Honor ----

[yodermon]

91. and

it's a great Dave Matthews tune ;)

[Pallas180]

9. Thanks Dem in NC, could you test URL's to old threads & if they work-

oops, I can't get them to work

[iconoclastic cat]

12. your link is broken

[Pallas180]

16. ICONO - now I got it working - Ijust had to wait and click on url

after you click on du url it takes a while to come up,

unless you've found something different.....

We need BEAM ME UP to put in all of his pdf

[Beam Me Up]

25. Wont have time before tomorrow. It was KravenKitty (if I remember right)

who has been making the PDFs; I do the MSWord docs. What I have so far is here: http://www.aeschatech.com/dumpster

I'm at work with limited access at the moment.

BMU

[PfcHammer]

41. PDF 7 is up now, too

along with 1-6.

http://s93118771.onlinehome.us/DU/PlameIndictments.html

[Tellurian]

158. Broken Link, Pallas...

can you supply the original article?

[calimary]

2. Holy smokes, TWO ways! Dearest Pallas - you utterly ROCK!

1) WHAT an absolutely STELLAR opening - comprehensive, user-friendly, informative.

2) I can't believe I'm getting in, this early!

BY THE WAY, GUYS:

I've noticed that, since I updated and posted the FIVE STAR ACTIVIST RESOURCE THREAD with all the contacts and stuff, the thread in GD has been archived and therefore locked. And yet, I've had more updates to add. SOOOOOOOO... I've also noticed that the duplicate thread in Activism/Events is still open. Therefore, in the event of any further updates, I will go there, first. I am up to Part Fifteen. Updates include Slim-fast contacts, Senate Intel Committee contacts, and a couple of guidelines/advisories for responding to those annoying pro-bush/anti-Clinton emails, AND - ADVICE FOR SENDING SAFE SNAIL MAIL, in case you're concerned that your paper letter will get lost in anthrax-fear hell.


Last update: July 9, 2004:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1956556#1956858

(LAST UPDATE: JULY 15, 2004)
This is also available in the Activism/Events forum:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=106x8816

[Wilber_Stool]

5. A lighter note.

How many times have you been directed to a site with the assurance that it's the"funniest thing I have ever seen." "laughing my ass off" and thought, these people are so easily amused? Well, one more time. If you have a download manager, you can save it to disk. 6 mb.

http://www.claystreet.com/BushAds/Seriously.mpg

Trust me. Would I steer you wrong?

[Pallas180]

10. Whoopi got fired for dirty language, but Cheney didn't-Here's Slim Fast's

phone number.1-800-SLIM-FAST

Guess we know whose campaign they contribute to.

[yowzayowzayowza]

13. lol.

Revenge of the Soccer Moms!!!

[HootieMcBoob]

21. LOL That's beautiful!

Oh wow! Thanks :) I've already emailed it to five people! :toast:

[coeur_de_lion]

192. real cute! n/t

[iconoclastic cat]

15. Thanks to everyone for compiling these resources!

Thank you for working so hard! This is very inspiring and empowering.

[Pallas180]

18. Famous Quotations, Some will make your hair stand on end & refer to what

is going on now: New World Order

but for the time being, before I present the worst, think about this one:



"God told me to strike at al-Qaida and I struck them, and then He instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East. If you help me, I will act, and if not, the elections will come and I will have to focus on them."
~ G.W. Bush



I wonder who his God is?

[RebelYell]

19. If he's hearing voices.....

.....he forgot to take his medication

[Pallas180]

20. Recent Quotations:

http://www.wealth4freedom.com/wns/famous_quotations.htm



"Yes, many people will die when the New World Order is established, but it will be a much better world for those who survive".
~ Henry Kissinger (War Criminal)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"We are on the verge of a global transformation. All we need is the right major crisis and the nations will accept the New World Order."
~ David (name edited by me)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The drive of the (name edited) and their allies is to create a one-world government combining supercapitalism and Communism under the same tent, all under their control.... Do I mean conspiracy? Yes I do. I am convinced there is such a plot, international in scope, generations old in planning, and incredibly evil in intent."
~ Congressman Larry P. McDonald, 1976, killed in the Korean Airlines 747 that was shot down by the Soviets

_________________________________________________
"We will export death and violence to the four corners of the earth in defense of our great nation."
~ George W. Bush
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier...just as long as I'm the dictator"
~ George W. Bush
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"There ought to be limits to freedom"
~ George W. Bush

[Wind Dancer]

24. Yikes!

No denying these guys are serious!

[Stephanie]

22. I got intimidated by the long thread - did anything happen yesterday?

Was there any July 14 revelation at all?

[robertpaulsen]

37. Here's what happened yesterday, Stephanie.

No indictments, but Congress is starting to rumble.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1521&e=2&u=/afp/us_cia_politics_justice

Wonder if any letters from diligent Plame threaders spurred them to action? I hope they're listening!

[Stephanie]

51. Thank you! So there was some action after all.

I was so sure there would be indictments yesterday that I had $10 riding on it! I really, really want my Frog March.

[robertpaulsen]

66. H2O Man says Grand Jury was extended for 2 weeks.

So July 28 at the earliest, but probably August should be indictment time. I'd love to see a Frog March as a prelude to the Republican Convention!

[Pallas180]

23. THEORY OF THE WHY Valerie Plame Was Outed As CIA

Repeat from #7 - and all who have important posts that bring us up to date should re post them here on #8

A THEORY ON THE WHY - Plame -> Cheney->Halliburton

On my way home today, as I thought about the why the outing of Valerie Plame was necessary, I was so engrossed I drove 4 exits past my exit.

Here's what we know:

1) Valerie Plame was "active in a sting operation involving the trafficking of Weapons of Mass Destruction components"" when her identity was exposed by the White House. It also said" Only a high-ranking official could have had access to the knowledge" that Valerie Plame was a covert CIA agent.

2) Vice President Cheney since 1995 as CEO of Halliburton was fined 1.2 milion dollars for illegal sales of components to Libya which could be used for nuclear purposes. Shortly before becoming Vice President he bitterly assailed US policy against selling such components to Syrria and Iran, which apparently hurt Halliburton's bottom line.

3) There is an investigation of Vice President Cheney in other countries for illegal bribery and various other offenses connected to Halliburton as well as paying amounts to secret Swiss bank accounts

4)The Atomic Energy Commission has said a North American company is one of 20 being investigated for black market sales of WMD materials.

Here's the theory:

Valerie Plame was stopped in her tracks and the biggest treasonous taboo of revealing a CIA sting operation was done because she/it was coming close to discovering even more serious violations of the laws against trading nuclear materials with certain countries by our own Vice President and the Hallibuton company he has awarded billions of US taxpayer dollars to in non-bid contracts after he became VP.

Recently Libya was accused of having WMD components and the US threat
ened to invade unless Quaddaffi gave the WMD components to the US.
Bush 2 was seen on TV this week inspecting the cases of returned materials from Iraq triumphantly. The fact that Quaddafi received these illegal shipments of components from Cheney/Halliburton was not
mentioned in the victory video.

Dick Cheney, even after the Senate Intel Committee, The Atomic Commission and numerous other agencies have said no WMD exist in Iraq,
insists Iraq has WMD even in the last week.

Why? Because Dick Cheney knows he, through an offshore Halliburton company with a PO Box, at some time in the past sold Saddam Hussein WMD or components of WMD. In the same way "they" under Bush 1 adminstration sold Hussein lethal gas which he used, and then attacked him for using it saying he was a threat to the community.

Why do Cheney and Bush insist they must attack Syrria and Iran as the next step in making the world safe and that Syrria and Iran have
WMD? Cheney-Halliburton know that Syrria and Iran have WMD components because Cheney illegally sold the WMD components to Syrria and Iran.

Why did Bush Cheney know that North Korea had WMD and where did they gget the components?

Why were Pakistan and India able to test and develop nuclear weapons undetected by the CIA's "big eye in the sky" or any agency's seismic
discovery? And where did India and Pakistan purchase the components
for WMD which were illegal for any company to sell them?

What was Valerie Plame investigating?


good spooks vs the bad spooks in the FBI and CIA becomes very confusing to most, I think.



Not to add confusion to my "theory " above, but I also thought:

When Saudi Arabia asked Junior and Company to get out of Saudi Arabia
afer we had built a monstrous and expensive base armed with the newest weaponry - one might call it a home base -why would they do that, when they had wanted US to protect them and their oil fields for years???

The reason given for asking us to vacate was to calm the anti-American element. Hmmm. But if they needed our protection from that very element, WHY would they ask their protector to leave.
BECAUSE they "likely" also received WMD from certain parties.

So now, we can guess, the entire Middle East is armed with illegal components of WMD...supplied by whom?hmmm

And I agree with you ROBERTPAULSEN- it's a great racket. Supply them
with the components, collect payment. Shuttle back and forth between
private employment and government employment, selling WMD for your company's bottom line while a private CEO, earning large bonuses and
deferred "payment" plus increased stock option value, go back into government, create a war on those countries who have the WMD you have sold them, then you have created a situation where your company and the other companies you hold stock in, or which belong to your other associates, can supply the army with munitions, destroy the country you have sold WMD to, and then the very same companies who supplied the munitions for destruction, go in and rebuild the country.


So. Now how many times have you profiteered?
1) illegal selling of WMD
2) earn bonus, increase value of stock options
3) Supply Army Munitions on no bid contracts
4) Rebuild the country on no bid contracts

[Wind Dancer]

26. We supply all the WMD to the ME

in order for them to destroy each other, then we come in and "help" the disadvantaged, profit tons of money and look like the knights in shining armor to the average person. With our history, it doesn't sound so crazy, does it?

[Pallas180]

28. DEM - we don't look so hot to the average person anymore.

but I think we're catching onto things we're really not supposed to
know.

[Wind Dancer]

32. Agree, Pallas,

sometimes I wish I didn't know all of these things. It would be so much easier to believe our government was somewhat honest but one can't ignore history. I'm so thankful for John Dean, Joe Wilson, Sy Hearsh and the like, plus this great group here at DU desperately trying to make a difference.

I've been studying the assassination of JFK Jr for over 25 years now, scary we have many of the same players still in power.

[Jose Diablo]

27. This would be a 'tectonic plate shift' in the beltway

if true and made public. Especially if the USA is attacked by those very weapons sold by Haliburton a la Cheney.

[Pallas180]

55. Is it Talking Points who mention "Tectonic Shift" ? we need to check

cause some weird things are acomin' out here.

There are some people who should be sent to Texas and given a seat in
his own electrified chair.

RobertPaulsen mentions Clark Clifford and BCCI. I remember now, did
he go to jail for involvement or get pardoned.

He was revered as an old statesman and when that criminality came out
people were absolutely astonished.

He must have been the fallguy for someone.

I dont remember or know much about it. Whose administration was it? Reagan's?

[shraby]

73. CLARK CLIFFORD AND ROBERT ALTMAN

For twelve years, from BCCI's initial attempts to acquire FGB/First American in January, 1978, until their forced resignation in August, 1991 from their positions as the top officials of First American, former Secretary of Defense Clark Clifford and his law partner, Robert Altman, were the central figures in BCCI's acquisitions and management of U.S. banks.

During that time, they met with and represented BCCI's top management, major shareholders, major borrowers, and every figure of consequence who participated in BCCI's frauds in the United States. Their roles included:

** Representing Bert Lance in his sale of National Bank of Georgia (NBG) to BCCI nominee Ghaith Pharaon in 1977 and 1978.

** Representing Lance, BCCI, and all of the Arab shareholders in the Financial General Bankshares (FGB) takeover and all related litigation from late 1977 through late 1990.

(more)
<http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/1992_rpt/bcci/13clifford.htm>

Interesting stuff.

[shraby]

78. Here is an interesting page

I googled Agha Hasan Abedi and found this on. Click on George W. Bush and you'll find a graph that will boggle your mind.

<http://www.namebase.org/main1/Agha-Hasan-Abedi.html>

I tried to go back to the George W. Bush page and need to get a password, but the first time I went there the page came right up.

[Pallas180]

90. SHRABY - you mean this graph?

http://www.namebase.org/cgi-bin/nb06?BUSH_GEORGE_W

oops - that's the site, but the second time it also asked me to register.

Ok, let's all register as Devon Underwood. :)

Most amazing - Bush, Bath, and Harken names in the middle and then
lines out to all their connections by name.

Schraby, I didn't get if that was over a background of the world or
what ?

Notice the name Bath. The same name dimson scratched off his Guard
service records. hmmmmmm

[shraby]

92. Yup. Thats it

looks like all the major players.

[shraby]

97. Here is the list at the bottom

Not sure what the numbers in parenthesis is after the references.

ADGER SIDNEY A

Lewis,C. The Buying of the President 2000. 2000 (196)
San Antonio Express-News 1999-09-08 (5)
ADHAM KAMAL

Bainerman,J. The Crimes of a President. 1992 (294)
Executive Intelligence Review 2000-02-25 (51)
Wall Street Journal 1991-12-06 (1 4)
ALEXANDER ANTHONY

Newsweek 2000-01-24 (48-49)
AMEEN MICHAEL

Bainerman,J. The Crimes of a President. 1992 (294 296)
Covert Action Information Bulletin 1992-#41 (51)
San Antonio Express-News 1999-07-11 (3)
Texas Observer 1991-07-12 (15)
Texas Observer 1991-09-20 (17)
Truell,P. Gurwin,L. False Profits. 1992 (370)
Wall Street Journal 1991-12-06 (4)
ARBUSTO ENERGY INC

Beaty,J. Gwynne,S.C. The Outlaw Bank. 1993 (229)
Executive Intelligence Review 2000-02-25 (46-48)
Lewis,C. The Buying of the President 2000. 2000 (197-199)
San Antonio Express-News 1999-07-11 (3)
ATLANTIC AVIATION

Brewton,P. The Mafia, CIA, and George Bush. 1992 (218-219)
BAKER JAMES A III

Beaty,J. Gwynne,S.C. The Outlaw Bank. 1993 (229)
Executive Intelligence Review 2000-02-25 (54-55)
Lewis,C. The Buying of the President 2000. 2000 (198)
BAKHSH ABDULLAH TAHA

Bainerman,J. The Crimes of a President. 1992 (294 296)
Covert Action Information Bulletin 1992-#41 (51)
Executive Intelligence Review 2000-02-25 (51)
Mother Jones 1992-10 (66)
Texas Observer 1991-07-12 (12-13)
Truell,P. Gurwin,L. False Profits. 1992 (370)
Wall Street Journal 1991-12-06 (1 4)
BANK CREDIT COMMERCE INTERNATIONAL

Bainerman,J. The Crimes of a President. 1992 (294-296)
Executive Intelligence Review 2000-02-25 (46 48 50-51)
New York Times Book Review 2004-04-18 (11)
Stich,R. Defrauding America. 1994 (407)
BARNES BEN F

Lewis,C. The Buying of the President 2000. 2000 (196)
San Antonio Express-News 1999-09-08 (5)
BASS FAMILY

Executive Intelligence Review 2000-02-25 (48-49 52 55)
BASS LEE MARSHALL

Executive Intelligence Review 2000-02-25 (55)
Lewis,C. The Buying of the President 2000. 2000 (202)
Texas Observer 1991-07-12 (13)
BASS ROBERT MUSE

Lewis,C. The Buying of the President 2000. 2000 (202)
Mother Jones 1992-10 (66)
Texas Observer 1991-04-05 (16)
BASS SID RICHARDSON

Lewis,C. The Buying of the President 2000. 2000 (202)
Texas Observer 1991-07-12 (13)
BATH JAMES R

Bainerman,J. The Crimes of a President. 1992 (295-296)
Beaty,J. Gwynne,S.C. The Outlaw Bank. 1993 (227-229)
Brewton,P. The Mafia, CIA, and George Bush. 1992 (218-219)
Covert Action Information Bulletin 1992-#41 (51-52)
Executive Intelligence Review 2000-02-25 (50-51)
Truell,P. Gurwin,L. False Profits. 1992 (369)
Wall Street Journal 1991-12-06 (4)
BEEBE HERMAN K SR

Texas Observer 1991-04-05 (16-17)
BENTSEN LLOYD III

Beaty,J. Gwynne,S.C. The Outlaw Bank. 1993 (227)
Brewton,P. The Mafia, CIA, and George Bush. 1992 (219)
BERNSTEIN TOM (ROLAND BETTS PARTNER)

Executive Intelligence Review 2000-02-25 (51-52)
BETTS ROLAND W

Executive Intelligence Review 2000-02-25 (51-52 55)
San Antonio Express-News 1999-07-11 (3)
BIN MAHFOUZ KHALID

Bainerman,J. The Crimes of a President. 1992 (295)
Beaty,J. Gwynne,S.C. The Outlaw Bank. 1993 (228-229)
Executive Intelligence Review 2000-02-25 (51)
Truell,P. Gurwin,L. False Profits. 1992 (369)
Wall Street Journal 1991-12-06 (1 4)
BREEDEN RICHARD C

Executive Intelligence Review 2000-02-25 (50)
Lewis,C. The Buying of the President 2000. 2000 (202-203)
BREWTON PETE

Texas Observer 1991-04-05 (16-17)
BROWN BOBBY (DR)

Lewis,C. The Buying of the President 2000. 2000 (205)
San Antonio Express-News 1999-07-11 (3)
BUSH GEORGE H.W.

Beaty,J. Gwynne,S.C. The Outlaw Bank. 1993 (228)
Covert Action Quarterly 2002-#74 (2)
Executive Intelligence Review 2000-02-25 (55)
New York Times Book Review 2004-04-18 (11)
San Antonio Express-News 1999-09-08 (5)
Truell,P. Gurwin,L. False Profits. 1992 (368)
BUSH JOHN E (JEB)

Mother Jones 1992-10 (33)
Truell,P. Gurwin,L. False Profits. 1992 (368)
Wall Street Journal 1991-12-06 (4)
BUSH JONATHAN (UNCLE OF GEORGE W. BUSH)

Executive Intelligence Review 2000-02-25 (47)
Lewis,C. The Buying of the President 2000. 2000 (197-198)
San Antonio Express-News 1999-07-11 (1 3)
BUSH NEIL MALLON

Executive Intelligence Review 2000-02-25 (55)
Mother Jones 1992-10 (68)
Tarpley,W.G. Chaitkin,A. George Bush. 1992 (372-373)
Texas Observer 1991-04-05 (16)
Wall Street Journal 1991-12-06 (4)
BUSH PRESCOTT JR

Covert Action Information Bulletin 1992-#41 (52)
Wall Street Journal 1991-12-06 (4)
CARLUCCI FRANK CHARLES

Covert Action Quarterly 2002-#74 (2)
Executive Intelligence Review 2000-02-25 (54)
CARLYLE GROUP

Covert Action Quarterly 2002-#74 (2)
Executive Intelligence Review 2000-02-25 (54)
New York Times Book Review 2004-04-18 (11)
CHENEY RICHARD B

Huffington,A. Pigs at the Trough. 2003 (59-60)
CHILES H EDDIE

Executive Intelligence Review 2000-02-25 (51-52)
Lewis,C. The Buying of the President 2000. 2000 (204-205)
San Antonio Express-News 1999-07-11 (1 3)
CONNALLY JOHN BOWDEN (B.1917-02-27)

Bainerman,J. The Crimes of a President. 1992 (295)
Beaty,J. Gwynne,S.C. The Outlaw Bank. 1993 (228-229)
Executive Intelligence Review 2000-02-25 (51)
DARMAN RICHARD GORDON

Executive Intelligence Review 2000-02-25 (54)
Washington Post 1988-12-05 (21)
DEWITT WILLIAM O JR

Executive Intelligence Review 2000-02-25 (47 51 55)
Lewis,C. The Buying of the President 2000. 2000 (199 204-205)
Mother Jones 1992-10 (67)
San Antonio Express-News 1999-07-11 (3)
DOTY JAMES R

Executive Intelligence Review 2000-02-25 (50)
Lewis,C. The Buying of the President 2000. 2000 (203)
DRAPER WILLIAM H III

Lewis,C. The Buying of the President 2000. 2000 (197-198)
EDWARDS DAVID (CITIBANK)

Covert Action Information Bulletin 1992-#41 (51)
Texas Observer 1991-07-12 (15)
Texas Observer 1991-09-20 (17)
EDWARDS MICHAEL (STEPHENS INC)

Covert Action Information Bulletin 1992-#41 (51)
Texas Observer 1991-07-12 (15)
EISENSON MICHAEL

Lewis,C. The Buying of the President 2000. 2000 (200 204)
ENRON CORPORATION

Executive Intelligence Review 2000-02-25 (50 55)
EVANS DONALD L

Lewis,C. The Buying of the President 2000. 2000 (209)
Newsweek 2000-01-24 (46 48)
FAULKNER MIKEL D

Texas Observer 1991-07-12 (12-14)
FIRSTENERGY CORPORATION (OHIO)

Newsweek 2000-01-24 (48-49)
GOOD KENNETH M

Texas Observer 1991-04-05 (16)
Wall Street Journal 1991-12-06 (4)
HALLIBURTON COMPANY

Huffington,A. Pigs at the Trough. 2003 (59-60)
HAMMOUD MOHAMMED MAHMOUD

Bainerman,J. The Crimes of a President. 1992 (294)
Truell,P. Gurwin,L. False Profits. 1992 (370)
Wall Street Journal 1991-12-06 (4)
HARKEN ENERGY CORPORATION

Bainerman,J. The Crimes of a President. 1992 (294-296)
Beaty,J. Gwynne,S.C. The Outlaw Bank. 1993 (229)
Covert Action Information Bulletin 1992-#41 (50-52)
Covert Action Quarterly 2002-#74 (2)
Executive Intelligence Review 2000-02-25 (46-52)
Huffington,A. Pigs at the Trough. 2003 (59)
Lewis,C. The Buying of the President 2000. 2000 (194-196 199-202)
Mother Jones 1992-10 (33 66-68)
New York Times Book Review 2004-04-18 (11)
San Antonio Express-News 1999-07-11 (3)
Stich,R. Defrauding America. 1994 (407)
Texas Observer 1991-04-05 (16-17)
Texas Observer 1991-07-12 (12-15)
Texas Observer 1991-09-20 (11 17)
Truell,P. Gurwin,L. False Profits. 1992 (369-370)
Wall Street Journal 1991-12-06 (1 4)
HARTMANN ALFRED

Executive Intelligence Review 2000-02-25 (50-51)
HARVARD MANAGEMENT COMPANY INC

Executive Intelligence Review 2000-02-25 (48)
Lewis,C. The Buying of the President 2000. 2000 (200-202 204 212)
HENNESSY JOHN (CREDIT SUISSE FIRST BOSTON)

Newsweek 2000-01-24 (46 48)
HICKS MUSE TATE FURST (TEXAS FIRM)

Executive Intelligence Review 2000-02-25 (53-54)
HICKS THOMAS O

Executive Intelligence Review 2000-02-25 (46 53-54)
Lewis,C. The Buying of the President 2000. 2000 (208 211-212)
San Antonio Express-News 1999-07-11 (3)
HINCKLEY JOHN W JR

Tarpley,W.G. Chaitkin,A. George Bush. 1992 (372-373)
HINCKLEY SCOTT

Tarpley,W.G. Chaitkin,A. George Bush. 1992 (372-373)
HOSTLER CHARLES WARREN

Bainerman,J. The Crimes of a President. 1992 (294)
Covert Action Information Bulletin 1992-#41 (51)
Truell,P. Gurwin,L. False Profits. 1992 (370)
Wall Street Journal 1991-12-06 (4)
HOWARD JOHN (TEXAS)

Lewis,C. The Buying of the President 2000. 2000 (213-214)
KENDRICK PHIL

Bainerman,J. The Crimes of a President. 1992 (295)
Executive Intelligence Review 2000-02-25 (48)
Lewis,C. The Buying of the President 2000. 2000 (200)
Texas Observer 1991-09-20 (11)
KENNEDY JAMES (DU PONT COMPANY)

Lewis,C. The Buying of the President 2000. 2000 (213-214)
KHALIFA KHALIFA BIN-SULMAN AL- SHEIK

Executive Intelligence Review 2000-02-25 (51)
Truell,P. Gurwin,L. False Profits. 1992 (370)
Wall Street Journal 1991-12-06 (4)
KUHN THOMAS R

Newsweek 2000-01-24 (46-47)
LANCE BERT

Bainerman,J. The Crimes of a President. 1992 (294)
Stich,R. Defrauding America. 1994 (407)
LAY KENNETH LEE

Executive Intelligence Review 2000-02-25 (55)
Newsweek 2000-01-24 (48)
MACOMBER JOHN DEWITT

Lewis,C. The Buying of the President 2000. 2000 (197-198)
MAIN BANK HOUSTON

Beaty,J. Gwynne,S.C. The Outlaw Bank. 1993 (228-229)
Executive Intelligence Review 2000-02-25 (51)
MAY ELIZA

Lewis,C. The Buying of the President 2000. 2000 (216-217)
MCENTEE GERALD W

Lewis,C. The Buying of the President 2000. 2000 (41-42)
NATIONAL RIFLE ASSOCIATION

Lewis,C. The Buying of the President 2000. 2000 (81 83)
NUGAN HAND BANK

Texas Observer 1991-07-12 (13-14)
OHRSTROM FAMILY

Executive Intelligence Review 2000-02-25 (48-49)
OHRSTROM GEORGE L JR

Executive Intelligence Review 2000-02-25 (48)
Lewis,C. The Buying of the President 2000. 2000 (198)
OTHMAN TALAT M

Covert Action Information Bulletin 1992-#41 (52)
Executive Intelligence Review 2000-02-25 (51)
Mother Jones 1992-10 (66)
Texas Observer 1991-07-12 (13 15)
Truell,P. Gurwin,L. False Profits. 1992 (370)
Wall Street Journal 1991-12-06 (1 4)
PHARAON GHAITH RASHAD

Bainerman,J. The Crimes of a President. 1992 (295)
Beaty,J. Gwynne,S.C. The Outlaw Bank. 1993 (228-229)
Executive Intelligence Review 2000-02-25 (51)
Mother Jones 1992-10 (66)
Stich,R. Defrauding America. 1994 (407)
PRECHTER HEINZ C

Newsweek 2000-01-24 (46-48)
QUANTUM FUND

Covert Action Quarterly 2002-#74 (2)
Executive Intelligence Review 2000-02-25 (48)
QUASHA ALAN GRANT

Bainerman,J. The Crimes of a President. 1992 (295)
Covert Action Information Bulletin 1992-#41 (52)
Executive Intelligence Review 2000-02-25 (48)
Mother Jones 1992-10 (33)
Texas Observer 1991-07-12 (13-15)
Wall Street Journal 1991-12-06 (4)
QUASHA WILLIAM HOWARD

Covert Action Information Bulletin 1992-#41 (52)
Texas Observer 1991-07-12 (13)
RAINWATER RICHARD EDWARD

Executive Intelligence Review 2000-02-25 (46 52-53 55)
Lewis,C. The Buying of the President 2000. 2000 (205 208-211)
San Antonio Express-News 1999-07-11 (1 3)
REYNOLDS MERCER III

Executive Intelligence Review 2000-02-25 (55)
Lewis,C. The Buying of the President 2000. 2000 (199)
Mother Jones 1992-10 (67)
REYNOLDS RUSSELL S JR

Lewis,C. The Buying of the President 2000. 2000 (198-199)
San Antonio Express-News 1999-07-11 (3)
ROSE EDWARD W III (RUSTY)

Lewis,C. The Buying of the President 2000. 2000 (205)
San Antonio Express-News 1999-07-11 (3)
RUPERT ANTON

Texas Observer 1991-07-12 (12-14)
SCHIEFFER J THOMAS

Lewis,C. The Buying of the President 2000. 2000 (206-208)
San Antonio Express-News 1999-07-11 (1 3)
SERVICE CORPORATION INTERNATIONAL

Lewis,C. The Buying of the President 2000. 2000 (216-217)
SHIRAWI YOUSUF A

San Antonio Express-News 1999-07-11 (3)
Wall Street Journal 1991-12-06 (4)
SOROS GEORGE

Covert Action Quarterly 2002-#74 (2)
Executive Intelligence Review 2000-02-25 (46 48)
Texas Observer 1991-07-12 (15)
SPECTRUM 7 ENERGY CORPORATION

Executive Intelligence Review 2000-02-25 (47-48)
Lewis,C. The Buying of the President 2000. 2000 (199-200)
SPERLING SCOTT

Lewis,C. The Buying of the President 2000. 2000 (200-201)
STEPHENS JACKSON THOMAS

Bainerman,J. The Crimes of a President. 1992 (294)
Covert Action Information Bulletin 1992-#41 (51)
Executive Intelligence Review 2000-02-25 (51)
Mother Jones 1992-10 (66)
Stich,R. Defrauding America. 1994 (407)
Wall Street Journal 1991-12-06 (4)
STONE ROBERT JR

Executive Intelligence Review 2000-02-25 (48)
Lewis,C. The Buying of the President 2000. 2000 (200-201)
SWETNAM MONTE N

Lewis,C. The Buying of the President 2000. 2000 (195)
San Antonio Express-News 1999-07-11 (3)
Wall Street Journal 1991-12-06 (4)
UEBERROTH PETER V

Executive Intelligence Review 2000-02-25 (51-52)
Lewis,C. The Buying of the President 2000. 2000 (205)
San Antonio Express-News 1999-07-11 (1 3)
UNION BANK SWITZERLAND

Covert Action Information Bulletin 1992-#41 (51)
Mother Jones 1992-10 (66)
Texas Observer 1991-07-12 (14-15)
Wall Street Journal 1991-12-06 (4)
UNIVERSITY TEXAS

Executive Intelligence Review 2000-02-25 (46 53-55)
Lewis,C. The Buying of the President 2000. 2000 (212)
UZIELLI PHILIP A

Executive Intelligence Review 2000-02-25 (46 48)
Lewis,C. The Buying of the President 2000. 2000 (198-199)
Wall Street Journal 1991-12-06 (4)
WATSON E STUART

Executive Intelligence Review 2000-02-25 (47-48)
Lewis,C. The Buying of the President 2000. 2000 (200)
San Antonio Express-News 1999-07-11 (3)
WHITE CHARLES W (BILL)

Bainerman,J. The Crimes of a President. 1992 (296)
Beaty,J. Gwynne,S.C. The Outlaw Bank. 1993 (227-229)



BUSH GEORGE W
pages searched: 86
These names share the indicated number of pages with the above name. Click on a name below (or on the one above) for a standard name search:

HARKEN ENERGY CORPORATION 42 BATH JAMES R 13 RAINWATER RICHARD EDWARD 11 BAKHSH ABDULLAH TAHA 10 BANK CREDIT COMMERCE INTERNATIONAL 9 AMEEN MICHAEL 8 ARBUSTO ENERGY INC 8 DEWITT WILLIAM O JR 8 OTHMAN TALAT M 8 QUASHA ALAN GRANT 8 BIN MAHFOUZ KHALID 7 HICKS THOMAS O 7 BUSH GEORGE H.W. 6 BUSH NEIL MALLON 6 CHILES H EDDIE 6 HARVARD MANAGEMENT COMPANY INC 6 PHARAON GHAITH RASHAD 6 STEPHENS JACKSON THOMAS 6 BUSH JONATHAN (UNCLE OF GEORGE W. BUSH) 5 SCHIEFFER J THOMAS 5 UEBERROTH PETER V 5 UNION BANK SWITZERLAND 5 UNIVERSITY TEXAS 5 UZIELLI PHILIP A 5 ADHAM KAMAL 4 BAKER JAMES A III 4 BASS FAMILY 4 BETTS ROLAND W 4 CONNALLY JOHN BOWDEN (B.1917-02-27) 4 HOSTLER CHARLES WARREN 4 KENDRICK PHIL 4 SOROS GEORGE 4 SPECTRUM 7 ENERGY CORPORATION 4 WATSON E STUART 4 WHITE CHARLES W (BILL) 4 BASS LEE MARSHALL 3 BASS ROBERT MUSE 3 BREEDEN RICHARD C 3 BUSH JOHN E (JEB) 3 CARLYLE GROUP 3 EDWARDS DAVID (CITIBANK) 3 EVANS DONALD L 3 FAULKNER MIKEL D 3 HAMMOUD MOHAMMED MAHMOUD 3 KHALIFA KHALIFA BIN-SULMAN AL- SHEIK 3 MAIN BANK HOUSTON 3 PRECHTER HEINZ C 3 REYNOLDS MERCER III 3 REYNOLDS RUSSELL S JR 3 RUPERT ANTON 3 STONE ROBERT JR 3 SWETNAM MONTE N 3 ADGER SIDNEY A 2 ALEXANDER ANTHONY 2 ATLANTIC AVIATION 2 BARNES BEN F 2 BASS SID RICHARDSON 2 BEEBE HERMAN K SR 2 BENTSEN LLOYD III 2 BERNSTEIN TOM (ROLAND BETTS PARTNER) 2 BREWTON PETE 2 BROWN BOBBY (DR) 2 BUSH PRESCOTT JR 2 CARLUCCI FRANK CHARLES 2 CHENEY RICHARD B 2 DARMAN RICHARD GORDON 2 DOTY JAMES R 2 DRAPER WILLIAM H III 2 EDWARDS MICHAEL (STEPHENS INC) 2 EISENSON MICHAEL 2 ENRON CORPORATION 2 FIRSTENERGY CORPORATION (OHIO) 2 GOOD KENNETH M 2 HALLIBURTON COMPANY 2 HARTMANN ALFRED 2 HENNESSY JOHN (CREDIT SUISSE FIRST BOSTON) 2 HICKS MUSE TATE FURST (TEXAS FIRM) 2 HINCKLEY JOHN W JR 2 HINCKLEY JOHN W SR 2 HINCKLEY SCOTT 2 HOWARD JOHN (TEXAS) 2 KENNEDY JAMES (DU PONT COMPANY) 2 KUHN THOMAS R 2 LANCE BERT 2 LAY KENNETH LEE 2 MACOMBER JOHN DEWITT 2 MAY ELIZA 2 MCENTEE GERALD W 2 NATIONAL RIFLE ASSOCIATION 2 NUGAN HAND BANK 2 OHRSTROM FAMILY 2 OHRSTROM GEORGE L JR 2 OHRSTROM GEORGE L SR 2 QUANTUM FUND 2 QUASHA WILLIAM HOWARD 2 ROSE EDWARD W III (RUSTY) 2 SERVICE CORPORATION INTERNATIONAL 2 SHIRAWI YOUSUF A 2 SPERLING SCOTT 2 STARNES E TRINE 2 STEPHENS INC 2 TEELEY PETER B 2 UNTERMEYER CHASE G (CHARLES) 2 WALTRIP ROBERT LYNN 2 WEBBER FREDERICK (CMA) 2 WYLY CHARLES J 2 WYLY SAM 2 ABEDI AGHA HASAN 1 ALEXANDER JAMES DOUGLAS 1 ALLBAUGH JOE M JR 1 ALLEN JOE (HOUSTON LAWYER) 1 AMERICAN FEDERATION STATE COUNTY MUNICIPAL EMPLOYEES 1 APEX ENERGY 1 ARMORED RESPONSE GROUP U.S. 1 ATWATER LEE 1 BAKER BOTTS (HOUSTON LAW FIRM) 1 BARR ROBERT L JR (R-GA) 1 BARTLETT DAN 1 BASS EDWARD PERRY 1 BASS ENTERPRISES 1 BASS PERRY RICHARDSON 1 BATES DAVID Q 1 BAZARIAN CHARLES 1 BECHTEL CORPORATION 1 BECKER JEAN 1 BEECHERL LOUIS ARTHUR JR 1 BEGHINI VIC 1 BELLAMAH COMPANY 1 BERMAN WAYNE L 1 BLOOMBERG MICHAEL RUBENS 1 BRADBURY CURT 1 BRADY NICHOLAS F 1 BRYANT HERBERT (J.C. HERBERT JR) 1 BRYANT MAGALEN OHRSTROM 1 BUSH EXPLORATION 1 BUSH FREDERICK M 1 BUSH MARVIN PIERCE 1 BUSH PRESCOTT SHELDON 1 BUSH WILLIAM (BROTHER OF GEORGE H.W.) 1 CAMERON DORT III 1 CARD ANDREW H JR 1 CARLISLE COMPANIES 1 CARTER PHILLIP N (SIDNEY MT) 1 CAVENEY RED 1 CENTRUST SAVINGS BANK 1 CHECCHI ALFRED A 1 CISNEROS GUSTAVO A 1 CLINE RAY STEINER 1 COLLINS HERBERT F 1 CONAWAY K MICHAEL 1 CONDRAY ANSEL 1 CORSON ROBERT L 1 CRAIG LARRY E (R-ID) 1 CRESCENT REAL ESTATE EQUITIES 1 DALAI LAMA (TENZIN GYATSO) 1 DARWAISH ABDULLAH 1 DIAZ MANUEL C (MANNY) 1 DIXON DON R 1 DU PONT EDWARD BRADFORD 1 DUNCAN ROBERT (TEXAS) 1 DUQUE ALBERTO 1 EISENBERG CALVIN 1 ELLISON LAWRENCE JOSEPH 1 ENGLER JOHN (GOV) 1 FLEISCHER ARI 1 FREEMAN BRADFORD M 1 FREEMAN LAWRENCE A (MIAMI) 1 GERTH JEFF 1 GETZ H LELAND 1 GLOBAL ENVIRONMENTAL TECHNOLOGY FOUNDATION 1 GOFF JOHN C 1 GOLDSMITH STEPHEN 1 GORBACHEV MIKHAIL S 1 GRAMM PHIL (R-TX) 1 GRAY ROBERT KEITH 1 GREEN SHIRLEY M 1 GREENE RICHARD (ARLINGTON TX) 1 GREGORY WILFRED P 1 HADDOCK GERALD 1 HALPER STEFAN A 1 HAMMONDS TOM 1 HARVEY TOM (NSC) 1 HERSKOWITZ MICKEY 1 HICKS R STEVEN 1 HILER BRUCE A 1 HINZ DARBY 1 HORCHOW ROGER 1 HORNER CONSTANCE J 1 HUCKABY STAN 1 HUGHES KAREN P 1 HUGHES KENNETH (TEXAS) 1 HUNT RAY LEE 1 HUSSEIN SADDAM 1 HUTCHINSON ASA 1 HUXTABLE MIKE 1 INMAN BOBBY RAY 1 INTERNATIONAL CRISIS GROUP 1 JOHNSON ROBERT WOOD IV 1 JORDAN ROBERT W 1 JOSEPH FREDERICK H 1 KANTER BURTON WALLACE 1 KASS STEPHEN L 1 KEATING CHARLES H JR 1 KEATING FRANK (GOV) 1 KELLY THOMAS W (GEN) 1 KENNY JANE 1 KRALJ NICK 1 KRAVIS HENRY R 1 LA PIERRE WAYNE R JR 1 LAKE RESOURCES 1 LATHAM DONALD C 1 LITTWIN LAWRENCE 1 LOEB NACKEY SCRIPPS 1 LOEB WILLIAM 1 LOTT TRENT (R-MS) 1 MAHATHIR MOHAMAD 1 MARINIS THOMAS 1 MARQUEZ RALPH 1 MATALIN MARY 1 MCCAIN JOHN S III (R-AZ) 1 MCCLELLAN SCOTT 1 MCLEAN HARVEY D JR 1 MCLUCAS WILLIAM R 1 METCALF LEO 1 MILKEN MICHAEL ROBERT 1 MILLER WILLIAM D (TEXAS LAWYER) 1 MIZEL LARRY 1 MOSBACHER ROBERT ADAM 1 MOSER THOMAS L 1 MULLIGAN HARRY L 1 NELSON TERRY (FBI) 1 NICHOLS JOHN PHILIP 1 NICHOLSON JAMES (RNC) 1 OPEN SOCIETY FUND 1 OPEN SOCIETY INSTITUTE 1 PAHLAVI REZA (SON OF SHAH) 1 PALMER NATIONAL BANK 1 PAUL DAVID L 1 PEROT ROSS JR 1 PHELAN WESLEY 1 POPPER KARL 1 POWELL CASEY 1 RACICOT MARC 1 RADIO FREE EUROPE 1 RADIO LIBERTY 1 RANSTROM DONALD 1 RAPPAPORT BRUCE 1 REA PAUL 1 RECAREY MIGUEL JR 1 REEDER G WAYNE 1 REILLY MIKE 1 RENDA MARIO 1 RICHARDS ANN (TEXAS GOV) 1 RIDGE TOM 1 ROBBIO PETER 1 ROGERS EDWARD M JR 1 ROGERS JOHNNIE B JR 1 ROGERS WILLIAM DILL 1 ROSE JAMES (GEN) 1 ROSENBLATT WILLIAM 1 ROSSMILLER RICHARD 1 ROVE KARL C 1 SAKHIA ABDUR RAZZAK 1 SANCHEZ A.R. (TONY) 1 SKULL BONES 1 SKYWAYS AIRCRAFT LEASING 1 SMITH RALPH (SUTRO COMPANY) 1 STEPHENS MARY ANNE 1 STONE GALEN L 1 SUNG BING 1 SUNUNU JOHN H 1 TATUM GENE (CHIP) 1 TEETER ROBERT M 1 TEPPERMAN JONATHAN D 1 TERPELUCK PETER 1 THOMAS EVAN W III 1 TRAIN JOHN 1 TROTTER JOHN TILLMAN 1 TUTTLE JERRY O (ADM) 1 TUTWILER MARGARET D 1 UNGER CRAIG 1 UNITED STATES INSTITUTE PEACE 1 VANDERBILT ENERGY CORPORATION 1 VON RAAB WILLIAM 1 WALTERS JOHN P 1 WALTERS WILLIAM L 1 WHEATON M GENE 1 WHITLAM GOUGH 1 WHITMIRE JOHN (HOUSTON TX) 1 WILSON MARGARET (TEXAS) 1 WORTHEN NATIONAL BANK 1 WRAY JAMES 1

[shraby]

98. Here are the names off the chart

Adger S.
Adham K.
Alexander A.
Ameen M.
Arbusto E.
Atlantic A.
Baker J.
Bakhsh A.
Bank C.
Barnes B.
Bass F.
Bass L.
Bass R.
Bass S.
Bath J.
Beebe H.
Bentsen L.
Bernstein T.
Betts R.
Bin Mahfouz K.
Breeden R.
Brewton P.
Brown B.
Bush G.
Bush G.
Bush J.
Bush J.
Bush N.
Bush P.
Carlucci F.
Carlyle G.
Cheney R.
Chiles H.
Connally J.
Darman R.
Dewitt W.
Doty J.
Draper W.
Edwards D.
Edwards M.
Eisenson M.
Enron C.
Evans D.
Faulkner M.
Firstenergy C.
Good K.
Halliburton C.
Hammoud M.
Harken E.
Hartmann A.
Hennessy J.
Hicks M.
Hicks T.
Hinckley J.
Hinckley S.
Hostler C.
Howard J.
Kennedy J.
Khalifa K.
Kuhn T.
Lance B.
Lay K.
Macomber J.
Main B.
May E.
McEntee G.
National R.
Nugan H.
Ohrstrom F.
Ohrstrom G.
Othman T.
Pharaon G.
Prechter H.
Quantum F.
Quasha A.
Quasha W.
Rainwater R.
Reynolds M.
Reynolds R.
Rose E.
Rupert A.
Schieffer J.
Service C.
Shirawi Y.
Soros G.
Spectrum 7
Sperling S.
Stephens J.
Stone R.
Swetnam M.
Ueberroth P.
Union B.
University T.
Uzielli P.
Watson E.
White C.

[calimary]

118. Man - SIX bushes. Funny how that name appears in the list more often

than any other. Funny how that name keeps coming up again and again, over the years, in connection to all kinds of funky stuff...

Oh wait, not six. SEVEN. Counting the Spectrum 7 reference. Funkier and funkier...

[Pallas180]

123. Did you catch Hinckley on that list? remember what I said on #7

john hinckley was to dinner at pappy's house, friend of Marvin or Neil
I forget which, the week he shot Reagan?

[Pallas180]

99. I just found the answer about Keating & McVeigh I asked on #7

Governor Frank Keating former FBI investigated the Oklahoma
bombing.He's listed on the graph of business contacts with pappy.

That's why we never found out that McVeigh and Nichols had ties
to Al Queda.

Makes you wonder if they thought that was the event which would make
all da iddy biddy people beg for martial law to be safe. And when that
didn't work went for a bigger one.

Wow. One week ago, I would have said anybody who thought that way
was off the wall.

[Beam Me Up]

129. Everyone should DOWNLOAD THIS MAP and save it to their HD

And I mean everyone in the country. Just drag and drop it to your desk top. From there, if you want, you can email it out as an attachment to everyone you know.

You never know when something like this may come in handy.

[Beam Me Up]

133. EVERYONE: DOWN LOAD THIS IMAGE TO YOUR H/D

Just drag and drop it to your desk top. The more copies of this that exist for people to look at, the SAFER we will all be. You can show it to anyone -- you can even send it as an email attachment. Every recipient will then have a copy, too. You could even print it out and leave it at the laudromat.

Evidence, that is all it is, evidence put into the public domain. How one uses it, if at all, depends on ones resources and initiative.

You never know when something like this may come in handy.

[Beam Me Up]

137. Technical difficulties making me

error messages, double posting and being told it didn't post at all, broken link :crazy:

[Beam Me Up]

134. EVERYONE: DOWNLOAD THIS DIAGRAM TO YOUR H/D

Just drag and drop it to your desk top. The more copies of this that exist for people to look at, the SAFER we will all be. You can show it to anyone -- you can even send it as an email attachment. Every recipient will then have a copy, too. You could even print it out and leave it at the laudromat.

Evidence, that is all it is, evidence put into the public domain. How one uses it, if at all, depends on ones resources and initiative.

You never know when something like this may come in handy.

[Pallas180]

81. I vaguely recall Clifford connected to the CIA as was the bank- now

it would be interesting to see who the officers, directors and shareholders were and if any of them were connected to same names
as pappy, carlucci,bin laden, Saud's other names we've come to know.

I remember reading about one director of a bank recently (and you find it in investment/brokerage houses- look at Bremmer) who had been a former CIA member- and we are learning where you see that you see their black bag operations, being laundered through the bank.

It takes some digging because you have to look at officers and directors names and google each.

[Beam Me Up]

30. "Now how many times have you profiteered?"

1) illegal selling of WMD
2) earn bonus, increase value of stock options
3) Supply Army Munitions on no bid contracts
4) Rebuild the country on no bid contracts

I think that pretty much nails it. Now what we need to do is get EVERYONE to understand this is how it works.

THIS IS WHY WAR EXISTS. It isn't because human beings are inherently "evil" or "bad" -- it is because a few of us are -- and those few are not under OUR control. They are devious, they lie, they cheat, they divide us and get us to fear and hate one another -- that is how they profit. That is how they maintain their hegemony.

See audio of "Hegemony OR Survival" here:

http://www.aeschatech.com/medialibrary/

[Pallas180]

34. How did they know there were WMD in Iraq?

"Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction."
~ Dick Cheney, August 26 2002
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"We know for a fact that there are weapons there."
~ Ari Fleischer, January 9 2003

[robertpaulsen]

40. Current US policy toward Saudi Arabia is WINO

Withdrawal In Name Only!

Every point that you made in this post about Saudi Arabia is illustrated in even greater detail in House of Bush House of Saud. I'm really starting to get a sense of the almighty influence of BCCI in this sick marriage. I wish Craig Unger knew about this thread. Maybe he's here incognito. :)

I don't believe the US is really pulling our troops out of Saudi Arabia. Perhaps some soldiers are being shuttled around here and there, but the bases are not being dismantled, are they? With the significant security crisis that the House of Saud faces from Islamic militants biting the hand that feeds them, any imminent threat will be dealt with by US troops. Much to the delight of Dominion Theologists and the military-industrial complex!


Pallas, this is a reprint of post #241 from thread 7. I've got more BCCI/Khan dirt on post #35 on this thread. Check it out!

[Lestatdelc]

298. This is worth remembering...

because of the underground markets that Halliburton et al were dealing in to Syria, Iraq, Iran, Libya... this is why we DIN'T pull the trigger on Saddam in 1991.

Because when we were tearing up the RG on the "highway of death" we had to turn south not north in the Euphrates river valley because at that time BushCo. (Sr.) didn't honestly know what WMD we faced, not to mention the pandemonium the coalition (especially those in the region) would create.

This is also why BushCo. had to scare the shit out of their partners in SA with fake intel about Saddam's intentions was Desert Shield was being set-up.

This was why the WMD measures in the cease-fire and the no-fly zones for fixed wing aircraft was a must. BushCo. had to de-fang the Ba'athist regime of WMDs before we could really move o n them.

This is why they went positively APE-SHIT when Bush Sr, tanked in the polls, Perot split the vote and Clinton got in. This is why the Arkansas Project and a non-stop hunting for ANYTHING to take Clinton down with.

The big historical question mark from that period left unresolved for me is what prompted Saddam to go off the reservation and/pr why did April Gillspie take the insanely wrogn position she did...?

Was it because Saddam cut a deal to end the Iran-Iraq war...?

Was there economic threats (beyond the hyperbolic rants about Kuwait) that Iraq was doing that made him ripe for a take-down...?

From my recollection, the move of Iraq to sell oil in Euros and via the Eurpoean markets and China was post Desert Storm.

So what tiggered Desert Storm from the players...?

[NewJeffCT]

31. Regarding Pallas' give 'em hell letter

Good letter, but if I send in my own version of that to my local rag, they will call me back asking for sources. Do you have links/sources for your 3 main points?

thanks

[Pallas180]

33. JEFF - the sources are news articles, which we linked and printed

in thread 6 and 7. You could go back to those threads and find it
some by RobertPaulsen,some by H20, or you could google the keywords
and google will bring up the news articles.

Some are quotes out of books about the subject especially Ambassador
Joe Wilson's book posted by H20.

okay?

[StandUpGuy]

38. I agree with Jeff

When i read your letter I thought it would be damning indeed if you attached URLs beside names,dates, and articles.

Great work though

[Pallas180]

46. Thanks STAND UP - the point is we have done the work, long

hours online, searching, posting it for everybody to read and its kinda tough to ask us to go back and do it all again.If you go back and read the threads you'll know everythting we know. It reads like
a Ludlum or Clancy novel.

That's why we put the threads up on the top.

AND WELCOME to Plame

[StandUpGuy]

49. You misunderstand my point

I'm not suggesting you put links beside your claims for us DUrs.

I'm saying that any letters you send should include the URLs so that the recipients can further investigate for themselves without having to google everything

Thanks for the welcome but I have been in the discussion since the very first thread when I asked H2O to comment on an apparent contradiction in his theories.

First he called bush a puppet, and then said bush invaded Iraq because he was mentally unstable.

Second I asked what he or anyone else thought about the euro's roll in all of this.

The second point wasn't addressed until thread 5 or 6.

I have been reading them all though.

[Pallas180]

52. STAND UP that's great. post more often.Dimson isn't mentally

unstable, (not always anyway-although right now he's under such pressure he probably is mentally unbalanced), he's stupid.

Everything they've done is coming out. And I do mean eveything.

He is literally stupid. his pappy wasn;t stupid, but he is.

Us illiterates out here are discovering all kinds of things we would
not have if he hadn't fumbled the ball, and pushed things too fast and
too far.

He's set their plan for world dominatin back, if we impeach him or unelect him.

And it is not just the PNAC plan. There are still those behind the
curtain, and that curtain has been pretty well shredded.

The question is, have they empowered themselves enough financially and
militarily to withstand the "objections" of the citizens of every country?

[Pallas180]

53. & next question: Which Congresscritter is NWO & which is for the people?

A Report to the Committee on Foreign Relations United States Senate
by Senator John Kerry and Senator Hank Brown
December 1992, 102d Congress 2d Session Senate Print 102-140


http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/1992_rpt/bcci/


EXECUTIVE SUMMARY

Introduction and Summary of Investigation

The Origin and Early Years of BCCI
BCCI's Criminality
BCCI's Relationship with Foreign Governments, Central Banks, and International Organizations
BCCI in the United States - Initial Entry and FGB and NBG Takeovers
BCCI in the United States - Part Two: Acquisition, Consolidation, and Consequences
BCCI and Law Enforcement - The Justice Deparment and the US Customs Service
BCCI and Law Enforcement - District Attorney of New York
BCCI and Its Accountants
BCCI, The CIA and Foreign Intelligence
The Regulators
Clark Clifford and Robert Altman

[StandUpGuy]

58. I agree 99% with you

But I Truly believe that the INTERNET is what they didn't comprehend in time.

NONE of this would have EVER scene the light of day had it not been for the INTERNET.

Before the INTERNET (less than a decade ago) you would need to live near a good news agent or magazine store and spend a lot of money to get a worldview worth anything.

Today I turn on my computer in my bedroom.

Stories used to be spun locally maybe even nationally to fit the sensibilities of different communities. Today they need to spin stories globally because if they spin bullshit in the Smallville Post it now becomes a world wide headline.

That in my opinion is why they can't hide the lies any more.

[Pallas180]

60. STAND-UP - I hope you're right-but we need a Deepthroat to get the goods

on 9-11 because from what I'm reading of their own words in speeches
given to Bilderburg, and the UN, and Kissinger - the WTC was planned
to usher us along into NWO. They thought we'd be ready in 1991 when
pappy was in office, but he didn't get to complete the mission.

and I distinctly recall hearing a politician we all adore, say
during his term in office BEFORE 911 "they'll just have to give up
some of their liberties".

[StandUpGuy]

74. You'll be waiting for a long time.

Even IF there is a deep throat what then.

Do you think the American government could survive a full exposition of the corruption and deceit of the criminal corporate elite.

Could the American, or even global economy survive if all is revealed?

IMhO that is what the power elite is gaging right now. The penetration of the existing "known knowns".

Once a critical mass is reached they will offer up a few sacrificial lambs to try and placate then distract the outrage.

There is already enough truth out there for a Revolution but none is forthcoming.

I believe the average American knows that things seem to good to be true so are not asking questions.

These threads summed up are the administrations reasons for war, sept 11, the destruction of the middle class and the enslavement of the underclass.

But more importantly this war against Iraq/euro is for the Survival of the American Empire. PNAC is Not the creation of an Empire as it is often mistaken for.

If your goal is to retain the power necessary to live opulent lifestyle you need to fight for it. and that is what the U.S. corporate elite are doing.

I'm afraid the system is beyond fixing and needs to be rebuilt.

The question is how to get rid of the people propping it up.

[kohodog]

86. Standup,

I agree with you on many points here. The corruption is deep rooted in both government and corporate power, Two heads of the Hydra. Democracy may allow us a say in who's president, but we need to look much deeper than the "Presidential race." To have a chance, we need to make major changes in the House and Senate. To me that's the only viable solution with any real chance.

The fact that the truth is out there and no revolution is forthcoming may have several causes, but I think the primary one is: anesthesia by the media. The spin factory is in full gear, and many Americans are beat up so badly during the day they come home and are happy to watch Survivor (actually a pretty real analogy to today's workplace).

So how do we rebuild? The framework of the constitution is rock soild so I, for one, am not anxious to tear that down.

For now, I am doing what I can, writing letgters and working to help elect a progressive candidate to the House in my district. Even if successful at that, I worry that it will be too little too late.

Unite we must, with support from other people in the far corners of the world who care about peace and justice.

[Pallas180]

94. WE HAVE ONE WEEK LEFT TO GET LETTERS TO CONGRESS B4 RECESS

we gotta get those letters out to them

For good critters, they may wake up and take action

for bad critters, they'll know we're onto them - maybe slow them
down, or make them back off from the current cabal

of course, it could also bring down a hurrying of their plan -
in which case we have to have our plan at the ready.

we don't have much time. August or October could bring an event and
an attempt at lockdown of the country.

[StandUpGuy]

102. Agreed

We at DU are here for a reason, be it interest, tragedy or a personal incident that turned us political ( like 9/11 or Iraq troops friend/family)

We have a personal stake in being political and do this in our spare time.
Many many people are too busy, or to beat up in there everyday life of survival to pay any more than minimal attention to seemingly Theoretical politics.

My simple theory is...

Humans have survival instincts and those human in a pac or society need to get along and go with the flow to survive.
Except the stronger ones who can cruise the perimeter and shake things up when they see fit.

That includes the intellectually strong as well. Now the RW is pushing the pac around by postulating an omnipotent aura and bravado that convinces the week pac that the should just go with the flow.

Our job is to play the same game and start shaking things up ourselves. Show the masses that we have the answers and that its not cool or healthy to follow the RW. People like Moore, Stern, and Stewart are our biggest weapons right now. But we need them to start telling the whole story and not be afraid to shock people or give them too much at once.

Its our job to provide the intellectual framework to back up their attacks.

We need to ridicule people we hear spouting RW rhetoric and ostracize people we see perpetuating the myth. Start making it uncomfortable for people to follow th RW and we will start to turn things around.

But ultimately we need to brace for and welcome a severe cutback in American lifestyles and largess in order to weather the economic crisis that would result in America adopting a kinder and gentler world view.

[Pallas180]

117. STAND UP. Good! also send our letters to STEWART & STERN-free PR-talking p

points for them.

Geez, you guys are assigning an awfully big job to one lil group of
think tank.

On the other hand -look what that plick cheney and his wife did with
AEI - from 5 people to 20 to infiltration of every tv station.

[Pallas180]

119. CALIMARY you have to get hold of John Dean & have a lil talk about us &

this thread.

Get your best suit and sales talk ready. :hi:

[Pallas180]

88. It's all going to collapse-between now and 2012 and from what

I'm discovering, from what we're all discovering and learning from
each other's research and posts....that you're right. The system is
beyond fixing, absolutely riddled with bad unamerican ideology and bureaucrats subscribing to that bad ideology, as if a piece of wood in the company of termites for 100 years.

And economically I'm sure America is going to collapse much sooner than later. Our treasury has already been raided. And we have been
G-8'd. This country is deeply in debt. And that's when a country is
susceptible.

It is not a matter of corporate elite wanting to live an opulent life style. That's plain ordinary greed.

These are the giants who are already bloated and bored with money and the localized power that money has brought them.

Their game is to be rulers of the world. A consortium of financial giants who have decided they can make decisions for the world better
than democracy and little people can decide for themselves.

And that means the little people can not have any liberty. They must
adhere to being told what to do, what work they will do, what they will eat, how much they will eat, where they will live, what housing they may live in.......that's funny - it sounds like China. In other words, a form of slavery.

Of course, I fully expect at some point, individual greed for more power in the consortium will have them killing each other.

I found a quotation of John F. Kennedy's 10 days before he was killed.
Apparently he had come to a realization of the attempt of certain individuals to install this NWO or perhaps he had been offered entry into the club (it has been in the works since 1950 or so) and he said "The American people must be told about this".

(I'm looking for the link. Ever find a link and can't remember where you found it?)

These people are not funny. They're not playing games. This is their end play. Let's see we had a lie to get us into Korea - the domino theory. We had a lie to get us into Viet Nam (our ship was attacked)
We have a lie to get us into "ongoing wars" in the middle east.

And who would believe any of this. You would have had to have googled and read everything we've read and posted for thousands of posts. Try to explain it in a few paragraphs.

CALIMARY? that's your job.

[kohodog]

95. Is it too late to fight back?

Maybe we are awakening from a general anesthesia. We, the people of the world ARE THE ONLY OTHER SUPERPOWER! But we need to figure out how to unite, how to stand up for each other and with each other. We in the western world have more resources and are in a better position to get the ball rolling. But not much will happen until we are ready to sacrifice our comfortable lives (for those of us who are fortunate enough at the moment). The signers of the Declaration put their lives on the line, amd many sacrificed life or wealth to found this Country.

But how to prepare, and how to know when to act. I have been drugged by dsistractions and trying to make a living for me and my family. I hope I am not so far gone that I will let the moment slip by.

[StandUpGuy]

105. As long as you have breath you have hope

It is never to late !

The second global superpower is waking up.

My fear is that many in the western world when faced with the clear choice will CHOOSE to allow the suffering of others to continue to save their own comfort.

You sound like a brave person with integrity. People like you and DU have given me a lot of hope. We need to let the power know that we don't want their SUVs and 5000 sq ft homes. We want peace, justice and a clean environment for us and our children.

[Pallas180]

315. STAND UP-who do you think is the 2nd global superpower?

?

[StandUpGuy]

107. Why 2012 ?

And yes you are right, its not only the opulent lifestyles for those at the very top it is pure power and greed. But for ALL the enablers it is the opulent lifestyles that have bribed them into compliance.

I'm always interested in time lines and have waited with baited breath for the famous H2O July 14th date for the plame indictments that really got this thread rolling.

What makes you think 2012 for the grand collapse.

I think that is a bit protracted in my opinion. That is 8 more yrs of war and political jockeying that I don't think the system can bear.

[Pallas180]

121. financial collapse I think is imminent, we are in it, the change in

lifestyle effectuated completely by 2012.

I don't doubt that we'll be in wars for the next 8 years - or that
there could be civil war in the future of this country if things continue as they are now.

History repeats itself in patterns, every certain amount of years
the "same thing" occurs.

"Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it"

[SpiralHawk]

178. The year 2012 - Traditional Mayan Elders on their Calendar

http://www.chiron-communications.com/communique%207-10.html

Long but illuminating:

A snippet --

The Mayan calendars are an object of intense interest for many thousands of people right now, because they focus upon the watershed date of Dec. 21, 2012.

Everything changes by then, it is said.


With a cultural heritage including thousands of pyramids and temples, and a calendar that has proven itself to be astronomically accurate over millions of years, the Maya tradition is widely considered to be a mystic key to the soul of Turtle Island (North America).

(snip)

[shraby]

180. I've thought about the calendar

myself and how it "ends" in 2012. Guess I will have to see what comes about in that year.

[Pallas180]

266. Schraby, the world is not going to end in 2012. Changes not endings.

gather ye chestnuts while ye may, or something like that.

Be a squirrel and store up.

[Pallas180]

265. Actually I was thinking of a 224 year cycle, which recurred this year and

and the immediate effects of which will last for another 8 years...which puts us at 2012.

[Jose Diablo]

116. Its not gonna collapse

Bu$h and his tribe are gonna lose, we are gonna find the money they have stolen and put the whole bunch of them in jail for a thousand years.

[kohodog]

179. What if it needs to collapse?

I see big changes in the offing too, and depending on how it happens, it may be difficult for many, but actually a positive in the long run. Our consumption (American and other Western cultures) is outpacing the ability of the environment to sustain and recover itself. The key to sustainability is not to get ahead of our natural resources and to allow the earth time to recover and regenerate. New technology and renewalble sources of energy are not in place. We have passed peak oil. The environmental footprint of most Americans is huge, and eventually the outcome will be catastrophic.

So unless we can turn the habits of people and government around, which is very difficult as we know from wrestling with the issues n this thread, some sort of disruption might actually have the effect of slowing the deterioration down. A wake up call, if you will, that may slow the momentum down enough to make a change in direction.

[Pallas180]

269. Agreed Koho. And then there is the announcement this week

of the magnetic poles. Scientists think the poles are changing/thinning faster this past century than expected. The earth changes polar direction every 25,000 years. So, of course no one knows when the last time changing orflipping of the poles was or exactly when the next will be.

But the scientists seem to be hinting at it. Most of us, including me, think of the flipping of the poles as instantaneously. The scientists seemed to be hinting that it is more gradual, a thinning, and loss of magnetism around the earth as it occurrs.

That certainly will be structure coming down.

[kohodog]

277. Just think of the mess on kitchen floors by the refrigerator...

When the poles reverse!

But what will happen to electric motors? And the birds and migratory animals may have the most trouble of all. I thought it would happen more like a switch too.

Here's a link to the article in the NYT. You may need to register (free) though.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/13/science/13magn.html

(edited for typo)

[Pallas180]

316. Ah, a practical girl. girl?

:hi:

[Jose Diablo]

323. "What if it needs to collapse?"

Interesting point Kohodog.

Something I have pondered off and on for decades is how our economic system is based on growth not sustainability. The model itself needs 'growth' to be profitable. Without profit, then its all just so much hot air. Profit is needed to recreate the capital to invest and create new infrastructure as technology advances.

But what is so sacred about growth. Why is a profitable model that is based on sustainability impossible?

[Jose Diablo]

145. They didn't plan on the Internet

Now this is an interesting observation. You are right StandUpGuy, they didn't.

Maybe we can make some observations on the planning cycle time and the style of organization of the opponents based on this observation.

Why didn't they plan on the internet? Was it because it was planned so long ago? Did they think the internet would not matter? Do they think it doesn't matter what those that could potentially stop them discover? Why was the internet not part of their planning? Have they taken a previous plan that worked in another time period and just copied that implementation plan?

Are these people really that smart or are they down deep, really kinda dumb?

Its clear they do operate on detailed plans or do they?

Would these guestions be answered by a games strategist?

I doubt any of the Bushs' are the planners. How do they make their plans? Top down, bottom up, committee, what?

There is something to learn here.

Edit: You never win a war by being defensive. You must anticipate the opponent and beat them at what you know they are gonna do next. Just responding never beats the opponent.

[Pallas180]

151. STAND - prolly could add links as footnotes to the letter.

that would be a possiblity.

[robertpaulsen]

35. Interesting sites connecting Khan with the Carlyle Group.

I realize to anyone recently joining this thread that this info may seem completely tangential to the Plame scandal. But every link we uncover here helps fill in more pieces of the puzzle. Plame was working on a "sting operation" involving the trafficking of WMD in the Middle East. A.Q. Khan was one of the great proliferaters of WMD, so at Pallas180's suggestion, I've been exploring a link between Khan and Carlyle. Here's what I've come up with so far:

A link with A.Q. Khan and the BCCI:

Bush & terrorism
New revelations about the US president’s Bin-Laden connections.

snip
In 1995, Unger says, comes the last link, when Bin Mahfouz’s two sons invested $30 million in the Carlyle Group, which was on one hand linked to US defence contractors and on the other to the Bin-Laden family. Bin Mahfouz’s own terror connections are revealed when he contributed $270,000 in 1988 to Osama’s jihad in Afghanistan, at the prompting of his friend Salem.

snip
But since the Iraq War has turned into a nightmare, Bush is refocused on Osama, as a trophy to be presented before the November elections. In his desperation to get Osama, he is rewarding Pakistan for treachery, giving it “major non-NATO ally” status and waiving the sanctions imposed after General Parvez Musharraf seized power in a coup.

But that is not half as bad as the US ignoring Pakistani nuclear proliferation. And here, there is the unbeatable connection between the proliferating nuclear scientist, A.Q.Khan, and the notorious BCCI (Intelligence, “CIA to quiz Khan about bank accounts,” 9 February 2004), of which Bin Mahfouz owned a third.

Put that alongside the Bush administration’s extreme reluctance to expand the scope of the Pakistani proliferation inquiry, to embrace the Pakistan army on one side and the proliferating companies on the other, including the best names in US business (Debate, “Proliferation & the US,” 10 February 2004). Did Bush or Bush’s business associates profit from proliferation in any way? Is that why the US defence secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, has gone to great lengths to deny Al-Qaeda’s possession of nuclear weapons?

http://www.indiareacts.com/archivedebates/nat2.asp?recno=859&ctg=World

http://www.newsinsight.net/nati2.asp?recno=2584

http://www.indiareacts.com/archivedebates/nat2.asp?recno=822

Here's a real axis of evil:

Editorial: The Bush-Saudi-Pakistan Nuke Connection

snip
This week the Times of India (03.13.04) reported that "in the past fortnight by the British and French foreign ministers, next week's visit by US Secretary of State Colin Powell, and Musharraf's sudden visit to Riyadh at the weekend have triggered speculation that the pressure is on Musharraf to let foreign troops in." Why would Mashurraf go to Saudi Arabia to consult with Saudi officials about the Bin Laden-Kahn quid pro quo?

A possible answer is that the hasty visit had something to do with a nuclear deal reportedly struck by Pakistan and Saudi Arabia last October:

"Pakistan and Saudi Arabia have concluded a secret agreement on "nuclear cooperation" that will provide the Saudis with nuclear-weapons technology in exchange for cheap oil, according to a ranking Pakistani insider....Saudi officials also are still chafing over a closed meeting, later well publicized, of the U.S. Defense Policy Board in 2002, where an expert explained, with a 16-slide Powerpoint presentation, why and how the United States should seize and occupy oil fields in the country's Eastern Province....GlobalSecurity.org, a well-connected defense Internet site, found in a recent survey that Saudi Arabia has the infrastructure to exploit such nuclear exports very quickly." (Wash. Times, 10.22.03)

Given this scenario, Masharraf's visit to Saudi Arabia was likely meant to convince the Saudis to put pressure upon Bush to back off his pressure on Masharraf to allow military access into Norther Pakistan to hunt down and capture Bin Laden prior to the November election. Will this force Bush to cut the Saudis and the Pakistanis more nuclear slack? One way or the other, the danger of nuclear proliferation appears to be taking a back seat to Bush's political expediency at the expense of our national security.

http://bushwatch.org/kahn.htm

Here's a link with A.Q. Khan and Carlyle spin-off United Defense:

Why are Chinese President's Son and Neil Bush Business Partners?
by Al Martin

When the Bush Cheney Regime came into power, it immediately resumed sales of this American embargoed thermo-nuclear technology to Pakistan. It must be remembered that this was classified technology that the Reagan-Bush Regime was forbidden by law to even sell to Pakistan. Under the 1982 Boland amendment, these sales were clearly illicit – and still are.

Weapons inspector David Kay pointed out that one of these offshore companies that Musharraf and Abdul Khan had set up in Malaysia was a manufacturing facility to produce kryton switches, the pressure sensitive switches which are necessary to detonate a thermo-nuclear weapon and are also used in binary chemical and biological bombs and artillery shells. This company in Malaysia was in partnership with the Boeing-Bell consortium, as well as United Defense, the former Carlyle Group spin-off. This offshore company in Malaysia had granted a consulting contract to the international consulting firm set up and owned by Neil Bush and the Harvard educated engineer and son of President Jiang Zi Min of China.

Kay alluded to this (but didn’t come right out and say it) that this is a huge potential scandal – how the Reagan-Bush Regime and the subsequent Bush-Cheney regime illegally sold this technology to Pakistan and in fact encouraged Pakistan to illegally sell this technology to embargoed nations, to wit Iran, Libya and North Korea (so-called terrorist states).

Then offshore shell companies were set up through the Pakistanis with pro-Bush faction controlled US defense contractors, who made enormous sums of money –- and from those sums of money, enormous donations were made to the Republican National Committee and more importantly to offshore accounts of Republican interest groups.

http://solomonstemple.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=147

Ah, the plot thickens. Thoughts?

[burrowowl]

39. Thanks for a recap

in a nutshell. I've read the threads from the beginning and this helps one to stay more or less focused.

[Pallas180]

50. All roads lead to the NWO & those making themselves rich while they propel

us and other countries to it.

Rense was right long ago while we were all calling him "tin foil hat"

http://www.rense.com/general30/cart.htm

We're coming to the same conclusions and have probably done a lot more
digging and researching.

If this is how these people think a New World Order should be achieved, then they might as well be the Chief of Chaos in one of
James Bond's books, because they certainly aren't the good guys.

I suspect the major problems to them are Americans, because it is us
who are used to freedom, have been brought up on it, believe in it,
and have this pesky document that guarantees it.

[Snazzy]

54. Little factoid--NWO--9/11/90

Bush Sr. makes the New World Order speech to a joint session of Congress--also layed down our new Persian Gulf/Iraq policy:

http://bushlibrary.tamu.edu/research/papers/1990/90091101.html

We stand today at a unique and extraordinary moment. The crisis in the Persian Gulf, as grave as it is, also offers a rare opportunity to move toward an historic period of cooperation. Out of these troubled times, our fifth objective -- a new world order -- can emerge: a new era -- freer from the threat of terror, stronger in the pursuit of justice, and more secure in the quest for peace. An era in which the nations of the world, East and West, North and South, can prosper and live in harmony. A hundred generations have searched for this elusive path to peace, while a thousand wars raged across the span of human endeavor. Today that new world is struggling to be born, a world quite different from the one we've known. A world where the rule of law supplants the rule of the jungle. A world in which nations recognize the shared responsibility for freedom and justice. A world where the strong respect the rights of the weak. This is the vision that I shared with President Gorbachev in Helsinki. He and other leaders from Europe, the Gulf, and around the world understand that how we manage this crisis today could shape the future for generations to come.

9-11-1990

[Pallas180]

57. Thanks SNAZZY. Boy it's all intertwined & been in the works a long time.

throwing up.

[Tellurian]

62. All 'pie in the sky talk' of the greater good coming from one of the

greediest, vindictive, hatemonger in the world today. He, his consorts, and Fukiyama came up with the diabolical pnac plan and sold their bill of goods worldwide.

I hope they are happy with the results they've achieved, all in the name of GREED!

[Pallas180]

96. TELL - I found this on Fukiyama but the link won't open - can

you explain to us more.


Did you mean this:

Alex Marshall - 15 years covering New Urbanism, Old Urbanism, and ...
... The Pocantico Conference Center of the Rockefeller Brothers Fund ... the political scientist Francis Fukiyama caused a ... that President George W. Bush has announced ...

www.alexmarshall.org/?renderPageCancel=true& pageEventMiddle%5B%5D=s

or this

Rising Hegemon
... of History and the Last Man', Fukuyama argues that ... vice presidential operations for
the Bush-Cheney re ... Jay Rockefeller of West Virginia, respectively, expressed ...
risinghegemon.blogspot.com/ - 101k - Jul 14, 2004 - Cached - Similar pages


and which do you mean? pappy, jr. or N.R. ?

Can you find info that we can open? or post it?

Thanks. You always add things that we would never find/ understand on our own. Some quite shocking. You have the facility of delivery that
causes mental earthquakes.

[Tellurian]

110. I thought you said you were a detective?????

Read snazzy's post #54 first..

then read my response..

Oh, sorry...didn't see where snazzy's post made you physicaly ill-

Ah, that explains it!

[Pallas180]

125. TELL, no I didn't say I was a detective. Close but no cigar! ROFL

oh yes, I remember. Cigars make you ill. hee hee

Are you starting up again nitpicker????

[Pallas180]

42. The WMD seems to be a part of larger plan for :NEW WORLD ORDER

Reagan,Bush1,Bush 2 talk of the New World Order.

I recall the first time I heard Bush 1 say: New World Order, I got
chills, I didn't know what it was, but I knew it didn't sound right.

Apparently where supplying WMD fits in is to supply countries with
WMD worldwide, allow them to provoke each other, and kill each other off.

Divide and conquer. Dimson said it, "I will bring chaos". And why? because it makes populations manageable and malleable.

This is a plan that has been in the works since the end of WW2.
The New World Order, partly authored by Kissinger:

"Today Americans would be outraged if UN troops entered Los Angeles to restore order; tomorrow they will be grateful! This is especially true if they were told there was an outside threat from beyond whether real or promulgated, that threatened our very existence. It is then that all peoples of the world will pledge with world leaders to deliver them from this evil. The one thing every man fears is the unknown. When presented with this scenario, individual rights will be willingly relinquished for the guarantee of their well being granted to them by their world government."

- Henry Kissinger in an address to the Bilderberger meeting at Evian, France, May 21, 1992.

Convenient. Isn't that when PNAC was first written or a pre-cursor of it?

I hate to sound like I believe in conspiracies BUT - why do they call it a tin foil hat?

It becomes more and more doubtful that MIHOP or LIHOP is not a reality.

[robertpaulsen]

45. I think this link illustrates exactly what you're saying.

Bushes Arm AlQaeda,Iran,Korea Suppliers-China,Pakistan with US Nuclear,Biological,Chemical Weapons


Copyright 2004 by Patrick B. Briley

In 1986 the Reagan –HW Bush administration openly sold US nuclear weapons technology to Pakistan AND Communist China under an agreement that Pakistan and China were not to transfer the technology or any weapons built from the technology to any third parties. The Soviet Union had provided similar technology to make India a nuclear power. The Reagan-HW Bush administration claimed they gave Pakistan and Communist China US nuclear technology to counterbalance the Soviet nuclear threat and to offset and balance the Soviet move with India.

However, Pakistan began to set up off shore companies in Malaysia, Indonesia and parts of Southeast Asia including Hong Kong to build nuclear components with business assistance of US defense contractors. The Clinton administration suspended sales of the US technology to Pakistan when it was discovered that Pakistan had sold the US nuclear weapons technology to Iran, Libya and North Korea. China was also discovered to have sold US nuclear weapons technologies and components to North Korea. But when the GW Bush –Cheney administration assumed the White House, it resumed the sales of US nuclear technology to Pakistan. Last month VP Cheney went to China to resume US nuclear reactor technology sales to Communist China. Yet Communist China remains the largest backer of terrorists groups and terrorist nations like AlQaeda Iran and North Korea without being embargoed or publicly singled out by the GW Bush administration.


The sales of classified US nuclear weapons technology to Pakistan and China by the HW Bush and GW Bush is still illegal and has been ever since the Boland amendment passed and signed into law in 1982. It is also a violation of the 1946 McMahon Act.

Pakistan’s President General Musharraf pardoned his nuclear weapons chief Dr. Abdul Khan for illegally selling the US technology to North Korea, Libya , Indonesia and Iran. US weapons inspector David Kay has said that Musharraf and Khan together had set up a Malaysian manufacturing company to produce krypton switches necessary to detonate nuclear bombs and used in binary biological and chemical bombs and artillery shells.

more...

http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=57094

This site talks about how this insane proliferation policy could come back to bite us in the ass when it comes to al Qaeda. When will this MADness end?

[Pallas180]

47. ROBERTP-incredible! how did you find that? Is it

theory or provable?

does he give sources??

"In 1986 the Reagan –HW Bush administration openly sold US nuclear weapons technology to Pakistan AND Communist China under an agreement that Pakistan and China were not to transfer the technology or any weapons built from the technology to any third parties. The Soviet Union had provided similar technology to make India a nuclear power. The Reagan-HW Bush administration claimed they gave Pakistan and Communist China US nuclear technology to counterbalance the Soviet nuclear threat and to offset and balance the Soviet move with India."



Now google and see if Rumsfeld and Cheney were in the 1986 administation.they were weren't they?

I came across an article, that Kissinger was in the appointed(replace Nixon) Ford's administration,and Nelson Rockefeller was Ford's first VP. When it came time to run for Elected office, Donald Rumsfeld was
Ford's chief of staff and talked him out of having Rockefeller on his
ticket as Veep. He was replaced on the ticket - and fortunately the republicanslost- but the next time around, Reagan adminstration, Bush,
Cheney, and Rumsfeld were there.

We know who pappy is.

Who the hell are these people Cheney and Rumsfeld? We don;t know enough about them. How did they get into the halls of power? who sponsored them? And who is keeping them there?

[robertpaulsen]

61. Briley's a strange guy - not sure what to make of him.

I googled his name because I had not come across him before in researching the BFEE.

On the one hand, he has absolutely no fear exposing the Bush Octopus for being the greatest WMD proliferaters on the planet. Then again, he doesn't provide sources which makes his research suspect.

Sadly, he also seems to give credence to Laurie Mylroie propaganda.

http://www.devvy.com/200405201856.html

But he doesn't seem to be in league with Mylroie ideologically. It seems to me his take on the situation is that everyone in the Middle East is connected because they're all in bed with the Bush Octopus. As he says in the libertypost link:

HW Bush not only helped equip Pakistan and China with nuclear weapons and technologies, he also directly transferred nuclear, biological and chemical weapons technologies and materials to Iraq right up until 1990 via the CIA, Ramzi Yousef and Ishan Barbouti and $4 billion in illegal agricultural loans through BNL bank. Saddam Hussein cooperated with Bin Laden and AlQaeda to help them train terrorists in the use of US supplied biological and chemical weapons at Ansar Al Islam and at Salmon Pak.

Saddam Hussein provided Bin Laden monies and training and US arms when Bin Laden was fighting the Russians in Afghanistan. The CIA under HW Bush directly helped Saddam provide weapons to Bin Laden to fight the Russians in Afghanistan. But the CIA and William Casey under HW Bush and Reagan also used illegal drug trafficking proceeds to fund the arming of Bin Laden’s forces in Afghanistan via Iraq.

The CIA and HW Bush connections to illegal drug and arms trafficking cartels globally still exist today and are believed to have been connected to the groups that FBI translator Sibel Edmonds discovered connected to 9-11 via Russia, Pakistan, AlQaeda and the Pakistan ISI. The Bush family has also been connected by numerous researchers and journalists to international mob, drug and arms trafficking cartels for over half a century and are also suspected to have been involved in the same drug and arms cartel uncovered by Edmonds. These are among the reasons why Ashcroft has used the state’s secrets privilege against Edmonds to keep her testimony classified.

http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=57094

These are fascinating possibilities that with reliable sources are DAMNING in the truest sense of the word. Unfortunately, Patrick Briley cannot be confirmed as a reliable source.

But you have the right idea, Pallas. Let's take these leads and keep searching down that path until we get hard evidence. So far it has been promising.

[Jose Diablo]

From libetrypost is the following link

http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/89-07092004-329060.html

More Companies Eyed in Black Market Nukes
By GEORGE JAHN
The Associated Press

VIENNA, Austria - An investigation of the black market supplying nations seeking nuclear arms has spread to more than 20 firms - some of them North American - the chief of the U.N. atomic agency told The Associated Press Friday. A senior diplomat identified one of the firms as U.S. based.

The diplomat, speaking on condition of anonymity, also said Syria and Saudi Arabia were being investigated as possible buyer nations, beyond Iraq, Iran, Libya and North Korea - the countries known to have been in contact with Pakistani scientist A.Q. Khan and members of his procurement network.

But the diplomat, who is familiar with the Vienna-based IAEA told the AP that "there has been no proof" that would warrant the reporting of Syria and Saudi Arabia to the IAEA's board of governors.

<snip>

Has this been sourced before?

Also from Libertypost article

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2000/091800a.html


The beginning of the article describs how the W88 nuclear warhead supposdly was stole on Clintons watch by Chinese

Yet further in yields

China’s Missile Shipment

An examination of the Reagan-Bush time frame – and particularly the Iran-contra files – reveal how Chinese military intelligence ingratiated itself with the U.S. government. In 1984, the Reagan-Bush administration was desperately seeking a source of anti-aircraft missiles that could be smuggled to the Nicaraguan contras, a CIA-backed operation that was seeking to overthrow the leftist Sandinista government of Nicaragua.

By late 1984, the U.S. Congress had prohibited additional U.S. military support for the contras, who had developed an unsavory reputation for rampaging through Nicaraguan villages, raping, torturing and murdering as they went. One contra director acknowledged the practice of staging public executions of Nicaraguan government functionaries.

<snip>

“Back in Washington, I met with a Chinese military officer assigned to their embassy to encourage their cooperation,” North wrote. “We enjoyed a fine lunch at the exclusive Cosmos Club in downtown Washington.”

North said the Chinese officials saw the deal, in which China supplied SA-7 missiles, as a way to “stick it to the Soviets,” China’s chief rival in the communist world. North said the Chinese communists also saw the collaboration as a way to develop “better relations with the United States.”

End

Paraphrasing from here out

This secret deal put the Reagan administration in a blackmail position with the Chinese.

edit: I hit post before I want too. Sorry. Going back for more.

[Jose Diablo]

68. From

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2000/091800a.html

Bush’s role in the quid pro quos remained one of the last unanswered questions of the Iran-contra scandal.

After his election defeat in 1992, Bush pardoned six Iran-contra defendants effectively shutting down Walsh’s investigation. In early 1993, Bush also ducked Walsh’s request for an interview that would have questioned Bush about his personal involvement in various parts of the scandal.

End quote

With the pardons, there is no way to find out what the quid pro quo deal was with the chinese.

This needs to be unsealed in the president bush I papers and Reagan papers

[Jose Diablo]

72. More from next link in consortium

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2000/091800b.html

The next link in nuclear secrets.

Begin quote

The Cox report did what it could to implicate the Democrats and absolve the Republicans. A chronological chart about the alleged espionage covered two pages and packed all the boxes describing evidence of espionage into the years of the Carter and Clinton administrations.

Nothing sinister appeared in the 12-year swath of the Reagan-Bush years, other than a 1988 test of a neutron bomb built from secrets that the report said were believed stolen in the “late 1970s,” the Carter years.

Only a careful reading of the text inside the boxes revealed that the principal security breaches under review, particularly the stolen secrets of the W-88 miniaturized nuclear bomb, occurred “sometime between 1984 and 1992,” the Reagan-Bush years. The first test of the lighter warhead occurred in 1992, the last year of the Bush administration.

The illogic of blaming secrets apparently lost during a Republican administration in the 1980s on Democratic fund-raising in 1996 didn’t stop the stampede of media pundits who latched onto the Republican allegations. In spring 1999, “Chinagate” filled a void in Clinton scandals left by Clinton’s impeachment acquittal in the Senate.

End quote

Ok the cox report page page 74-75 and close text needs to be referenced.

It looks like they traded the W88 for SA 7 chinese missles in Central america then blamed it on carter and clinton.

[Jose Diablo]

84. From Fas Cox report

I am not able to read the details of the image in the box, the scanned picture does not have the grainularity to verify the claim the box contains information of the secrets to the W88 were passed in the 84-88 timeframe but,

http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/congress/1999_r/cox/ch2bod.htm#anchor4770455

"Lee's admission that he provided the PRC with this classified information about nuclear testing using miniaturized fusion explosions came in the course of the same 1997 adversarial FBI interviews that yielded his admission of passing submarine detection research to the PRC. Lee's delivery of the miniature nuclear testing information to the PRC occurred in 1985, while he was employed as a researcher at Los Alamos National Laboratory.

Lee said that during a lecture in the PRC he answered questions and drew diagrams about hohlraum construction. In addition, Lee is believed to have provided the PRC with information about inertial confinement lasers that are used to replicate the coupling between the primary and secondary in a thermonuclear weapon.

Lee was formally charged with one count of "gathering, transmitting or losing defense information," in violation of Section 793 of Title 18 of the U.S. Code, and one count of providing false statements to a U.S. government agency, in violation of Section 1001, Title 18. On December 8, 1997, Lee pled guilty to willfully passing classified U.S. defense information to PRC scientists during his 1985 visit to the PRC. Lee also pled guilty to falsifying reports of contact with PRC nationals in 1997.

Lee was sentenced to 12 months in a halfway house, a $20,000 fine and 3,000 hours of community service.12"

Thus the claim in Libertypost and consortium above that says the W88 secrets passed to China on Reagan/Bush watch are confirmed, regardless of what Cox implied about the secrets passed on Clintons watch. Not that secrets were not lost on Cintons watch, they were, but the W88 was lost by Bush.

Edit to add link to fas, not gov

[shraby]

89. It's interesting in light of the

loss of material at Los Alamos recently. hmmmmm....

[Jose Diablo]

93. Yes it is interesting

I wonder what was lost and to whom.

Seems like it was testing data on a hard disc or some removable media was misplaced a ways back but was found within 24 hours, thus technically not lost in that incident, but the latest implies the media hasn't been located yet.

I wonder how something like that could be investigated on the net, probably not at this point because the FBI/CIAQ undoubtably are still investigating. No public information is available except the notice from, Berkley was it?

[Pallas180]

108. JELLY BEAN - Links we absolutely needed. One shocking lie after another by

the repugnants. How come they get to refuse to answer questions,seal records, lie and treasonously steal, and lie to congress, committ murder and continue on their merry greedy way.

The same thing happened with the grandpappy who was part of the cabal
who planned the coup d'etat against FDR. He could have had them arrested but didn't. And so the grandpappy became a Senator in the 50's.

And if they are not charged and arrested this time, they will have
succeeded in stripping and destroying this country -

[Jose Diablo]

112. Thanks I want to help

But I am not good at letter writing, give me a link to follow and I can track it down with google or copenic agent, just got a dial-up though so it takes a while.

Benice to have a relational data miner, but with a dial-up that would take forever to search the relational databases.

[Pallas180]

130. Hey JELLY - you come up with the really good stuff-

now how do you make that damn frog jump

:froggy:

:hopping:

:frog:

[Jose Diablo]

139. Bounce, I use the smiley lookup table is there another way?

:bounce:

But robertpsulson found the liberty site..all I did was follow the links within that site, any attaboys go to him, my part was just the click read and post.

[shraby]

140. Click on the smilies table

just above the message part when you reply to someone and a box will open and you can pick your frog jumping.

[Pallas180]

172. some setting won't allow me to do that - haven't figured out yet

but thanks, I love

:bounce:

[Jose Diablo]

85. Thank you robertpaulsen

for the link into liberty post.

Edit: That Bush is really a rat. Who needs enemies when we have the Bushs.

[Pallas180]

100. Where is Sibel Edmonds physically? She need to be careful

of accidents, drugs, lobotomies......

Hasn't she had some interviews on tv? that might be online?

[Jose Diablo]

109. Here is what I see in latest google news on sibel

http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_10258.shtml

Quote begins

United States
Former FBI Translator Sibel Edmonds Calls Current 9/11 Investigation Inadequate
By Jim Hogue
Jul 21, 2004, 19:16

"If they were to do real investigations we would see several significant high level criminal prosecutions in this country. And that is something that they are not going to let out. And, believe me; they will do everything to cover this up."

-Sibel Edmonds, former FBI translator

NTRODUCTION: Sibel Edmonds and Behrooz Sarshar, beginning in December of 2001, began filing reports to their superiors at the FBI. These reports could lead to the collapse of a corrupt power structure that has a stranglehold on the very institutions that are obligated to control it. We cannot excuse these institutions, for while they fiddle, they pass death sentences on their own troops, and on the people of Afghanistan and Iraq.

On April 30th, Sibel Edmonds was my guest for 50 minutes on WGDR radio. What follows is an edited transcript of the interview. The editing is for the sake of a more readable piece.

Sibel Edmonds is a former FBI translator. She blew the whistle on the cover-up of intelligence that names some of the culprits who orchestrated the 9/11 attacks. These culprits are protected by the Justice Department, the State Department, the FBI, the White House and the Senate Judiciary Committee. They are foreign nationals and Americans. Ms. Edmonds is under two gag orders that forbid her to testify in court or mention the names of the people or the countries involved.

End quote

The rest of this link is Sibel going into discussion on background and how asscroft sealed her public testimony.

Next link

http://www.alternet.org/drugreporter/19237/

Turkey, Drugs, Faustian Alliances and Sibel Edmonds
By John Stanton, AlterNet. Posted July 14, 2004.

Taking Turkey as the focal point and with a start date of 1998, it is easy to speculate why Sibel Edmonds indicated that there was a convergence of US and foreign counter-narcotics, counter-terrorism and US national security and economic interests all of which were too preoccupied to surface critical information warning Americans of the attacks of September 11, 2001. After all, who would have believed drug runners operating in Central Asia? And besides, President Clinton was promoting Turkey, one of the world's top drug transit points, as a model for Muslim-Western cooperation and a country necessary to reshape the Middle East.

The FBI's Office of International Operations, in conjunction with the CIA and the US State Department counter-narcotics section, the United Kingdom's MI6, Israel's Mossad, Pakistan's ISI, the US DEA, Turkey's MIT, and the governments and intelligence agencies of dozens of nations, were in one way or another involved in the illicit drug trade either trying to stop it or benefit from it. What can be surmised from the public record is that from 1998 to September 10, 2001, the War on Drugs kept bumping into the nascent War on Terror and new directions in US foreign policy.

<snip>

The rest is about Drug trafficing and conventional weapons sales between Isreal/USA and Turkey. No WMD in this article.

next link

http://www.antiwar.com/blog/comments.php?id=1118_0_1_0_C

Sibel Edmonds Denied Day in Court

And justice for all:

A federal judge threw out a lawsuit Tuesday by a whistle-blower who alleged security lapses in the FBI's translator program, ruling that her claims might expose government secrets that could damage national security.

U.S. District Judge Reggie B. Walton said he was satisfied with claims by Attorney General John Ashcroft and a senior FBI official that the civil lawsuit by Sibel Edmonds could expose intelligence-gathering methods and disrupt diplomatic relations with foreign governments.

The judge said he couldn't explain further because his explanation itself would expose sensitive secrets.

Yeah, such as the utter corruption, thuggery, and incompetence of America's intelligence agencies. But are those really secrets?

end blog from Matthew Barganier on Jul 06, 04 | 6:36 pm

Interesting how she has been gagged due to 'national security' or is it Bush's security they are protecting?

Next link

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/15/opinion/15EHRE.html

GUEST COLUMNIST
All Together Now
By BARBARA EHRENREICH

Published: July 15, 2004

start quote at bottom of editorial

The list goes on. Sibel Edmonds lost her job at the F.B.I. for complaining about mistranslations of terror-related documents from the Arabic. Jesselyn Radack was driven out of her post at the Justice Department for objecting to the treatment of John Walker Lindh, then harassed by John Ashcroft's enforcers at her next job. As Fred Alford, a political scientist who studies the fate of whistle-blowers, puts it: "We need to understand in this `land of the free and home of the brave' that most people are scared to death. About 50 percent of all whistle-blowers lose their jobs, about half of those lose their homes, and half of those people lose their families."

This nation was not founded by habitual groupthinkers. But it stands a fair chance of being destroyed by them.

Thomas L. Friedman is on leave until October, writing a book.

end

next link

http://www.govexec.com/story_page.cfm?articleid=28961&dcn=todaysnews

Senators ask Justice Department to declassify Sept. 11 investigation results

By Chris Strohm
[email protected]
Senior members of the Senate Judiciary Committee asked the Justice Department on Friday to declassify three reports concerning the FBI's translation program and information obtained by federal law enforcement agencies prior to the 9/11 terrorist attacks.

The Justice Department's inspector general has finished two of the investigations while the third is nearing completion, said Sens. Patrick Leahy, D-Vt., and Chuck Grassley, R-Iowa. All of the reports, however, have been classified, the senators wrote in a letter to Attorney General John Ashcroft, FBI Director Robert Mueller and Inspector General Glenn Fine.

"While the needs of national security must be weighed seriously, we fear that the designation of information as classified in some cases serves to protect the executive branch against embarrassing revelations and full accountability. We hope that is not the case here," the senators wrote.

The lawmakers asked the department to take one of the following steps: release an unclassified version of each of the reports; release a redacted version of each, or release an unclassified summary of each. The senators asked for a reply by Thursday.

End quote


Looks like Justice declined the Senators.

I would say Sibel is still with the living, but if she wasn't gagged, then you could be sure she would need protection.

[Pallas180]

113. LOOKS LIKE OUR LETTERS NEED TO GO TO LEAHY & GRASSLEY

according to what Jelly BEan found in post # 109

[Rose Siding]

43. Novak has taken claw to paper again on our subject

against advice of council-

Wilson contradictions leave Democrat senators speechless

Like Sherlock Holmes' dog that did not bark, the most remarkable aspect of last week's Senate Intelligence Committee report is what its Democratic members did not say. They did not dissent from the committee's findings that Iraq apparently asked about buying yellowcake uranium from Niger. They neither agreed to a conclusion that former diplomat Joseph Wilson was suggested for a mission to Niger by his CIA employee wife nor defended his statements to the contrary.

Wilson's activities constituted the only aspects of the yearlong investigation for which the committee's Republican chairman, Sen. Pat Roberts, was unable to win unanimous agreement. According to committee sources, Roberts felt Wilson had been such a ''cause celebre'' for Democrats that they could not face the facts about him.

For a year, Democrats have been belaboring President Bush about 16 words in his 2003 State of the Union address in which he reported Saddam Hussein's attempt to buy uranium from Africa, based on British information. Wilson has been lionized in liberal circles for allegedly contradicting this information on a CIA mission and then being punished as a truth-teller. Now, for committee Democrats, it is as though the Niger question and Joe Wilson have vanished from the Earth.

Because a Justice Department special prosecutor is investigating whether any crime was committed when my column first identified Wilson's wife, Valerie Plame, as a CIA employee, on advice of counsel I have not written on the subject since October. However, I feel compelled to describe how the committee report treats the Niger-Wilson affair because it has received scant coverage except in a few media outlets. The unanimously approved report said, ''interviews and documents provided to the Committee indicate that his wife, a CPD (CIA counterproliferation division) employee, suggested his name for the trip.'' That's what I reported, and what Wilson flatly denied and still does.more................

http://www.suntimes.com/output/novak/cst-edt-novak15.html

"scant coverage"...Who does he think he's kidding?

[Rose Siding]

44. Josh Marshall answers it here

with helpful links-

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2004_07_11.php#003162

[warrior1]

48. question

Are the indictments coming soon?

[shraby]

71. Do you suppose we

could get Karen to give us a couple of names? We could google and maybe come up with some stuff. Nothing that would break her gag order, but maybe some initials, or last names.

[Tellurian]

69. This point in Marshall's report...

seems to nebulously resonate with him.

I believe, this point alone is relevant providing the lynch-pin, backtracking to Cheney..Quoting Marshall once again:

"One other point that deserves mention: quite a bit has been made about the portion of the SSCI Report that says that Wilson's wife recommended him for the assignment. As a matter of substance, who recommended Wilson is irrelevant. Yet, Wilson's credibility would be undermined if he said X were true, when in fact he knew Y was the case. The LAT article notes that Plame's bosses at the CIA continue to insist that the idea to send Wilson was not hers, but rather theirs. The Times quotes a 'senior intelligence official' saying that "Her bosses say she did not initiate the idea of her husband going…. They asked her if he'd be willing to go, and she said yes."

What the truth of it is, I don't know. But the larger hullabaloo over this secondary point is simply intended to distract attention from the administration's persistent attempt to use weak and ultimately discredited information to muscle the country into war on a timetable which had precious little to do with preventing any sort of standing threat to the United States."

[Rose Siding]

77. Smoke and mirrors

Character assassination, pure and simple.

I fume when I hear the insinuations that Wilson is a hot dog or a media hound. He was the last American diplomat in Iraq before GWI! If he didn't pursue the footlights at that point, what earthly reason would he have to wade out into the charge of traitor when he did this time round?

The even bigger lie is that the Brits have verified anything about the Niger claims at all. If they can't show it now, when there is the slimmest chance of reclaiming a shred of credibility for them or the US, they have *nothing*. What kind of intel network wouldn't be worth risking over that?

[Tellurian]

101. I totally agree...

I believe Wilson's motives were altruistic at the time he was asked to go to Niger. Those doing the asking, motives were not. Neither Plame nor Wilson could ever have imagined they were being surreptitiously taken by the hand leading to entrapment.

Being the optimist that I am. I'm banking on his resourcefulness and expertise. I'm sure he holds the answer that will put a lock on the questions raised concerning his integrity. I'd offer more help. But I know there are facts still hidden he has held in reserve. Facts he could not reveal publicly, not even in his book..

[Pallas180]

132. OOPS.Wilson was the last diplomat in Iraq?What about April Glasby?

but if he was the last diplomat in Iraq, then he really knows
where the WMD is buried. The WMD that would destroy them, I would
bet. He knows if what we have been figuring out here is the truth
or not.

And if he does, they sure are barking up the wrong diplomat.

[Lestatdelc]

313. He was there during Desert Shield/Storm

His stand in the U.S. Embassy against Saddam's theatrics during Desert Storm earned him decorations and accolades form Bush Sr.

[TacticalPeek]

122. "little to do with preventing any sort of standing threat "

Josh must have convinced Senator Roberts. From TPM:



July 15, 2004 -- 02:05 PM EDT

Sen. Roberts: War a mistake, fault of CIA.

That's how I interpret this paragraph from today's article in the New York Times.

But in an hourlong interview on Wednesday morning in his office, Mr. Roberts said he was "not too sure" that the administration would have invaded if it had known how flimsy the intelligence was on Iraq and illicit weapons. Instead, the senator said, Mr. Bush might well have advocated efforts to maintain sanctions against Iraq and to continue to try to unearth the truth through the work of United Nations inspectors. "I don't think the president would have said that military action is justified right now," Mr. Roberts said. If the administration had been given "accurate intelligence," he said, Mr. Bush "might have said, 'Saddam's a bad guy, and we've got to continue with the no-fly zones and with inspections.' "

If you interpret it otherwise, let me know how.
-- Josh Marshall



Maybe this is another NYT mistake, and this was actually Senator Ritter?

[Tellurian]

127. Strange, that-- coming from Roberts...

when his credentials are of a specialist in intelligence matters:

from his own promotional website:

"Roberts has pledged his committee will work to make the intelligence community stronger and our nation safer in the post-September 11 world.

Directly complementing his work on the Senate Intelligence Committee, Senator Roberts is also a senior member of the Senate Armed Service Committee, chairing the Subcommittee on Emerging Threats and Capabilities. His subcommittee oversees the military's contribution to homeland security as well as efforts to prevent the proliferation of nuclear, chemical and biological weapons."

http://roberts.senate.gov/about_pat.html

The only logical deduction is Roberts is complicit in the coverup!

[TacticalPeek]

131. Senate Intelligence Committee Chairman: clue not required.

I believe I see some action in the CYA bullpen.


Comedy Central needs to give TDSWJS a full hour to keep up with all this horseshit.

[kohodog]

67. Pallas, you scared me!

I wasn't ready for thread 8 and just had a chance to check in! Thread 7 has fallen like a stone. I felt that this may be the thread that never ends and couldn't find it! I'll catch my breath, read up and see what's new.

[Rockholm]

83. Kick for H2O Man.....Where Is He?

These threads are amazing. Looking forward to our family cookout this weekend when I get do discuss the highlights with my family. They are gonna love it!

[H2O Man]

87. Good evening.

Looks like people have been busy on here this afternoon and evening. I've been preparing for a couple presentations I have to make in the next ten days. It's a busy time.

Who will be first to get a response to a letter, or to have one printed in the major media? Should be interesting.

[Beam Me Up]

111. Good evening to you, H20man!

I've been awfully busy, too, unfortunately. But I appreciate what you've helped set in motion here. I also appreciate your optimism which is often difficult to share in these troubling times. Hopefully we'll become educated enough and resourceful enough to help turn this situation around before it gets further out of hand -- something the German's weren't able to do in the 30s. Obviously we need all the help we can get. So, thanks again and I hope your preparations go well for you.

BMU

[Pallas180]

128. H20 We've made some big discoveries on this thread-when are you writing th

book?

:hi:

[Pallas180]

135. H20-our discoveries on this thread are well worth reading every thread.

I sent out 32 letters and one phone call.

And are you sending out any?

[Pallas180]

136. Anybody seen Arbustochupa tonite?

.

[Pallas180]

138. Received call tonight that every polling place is going to have a dem lawy

lawyer present.

Don't know if that's just Florida or the whole country.

[burrowowl]

144. Even though the U$ has more lawyers than

the whole world combined in absolute numbers: one: noone could afford to pay them all to be on duty at all the polls in the U$; two: many are corporate lawyers and would try to make sure Bu$h and Co win for the good of fascism (another word for corporatism); and three, we also need honest computer savy lawyers where there is BBV with some tech equipment.
But I do encourage everyone to be at the polls in one function or the other, i.e., election judge or clerk and polling place monitor.

[Pallas180]

177. BURROW these are volunteer lawyers. Some lawyers are even demos, look

at John Edwards.

:)

[Pallas180]

141. Quotation from a Director World Health Organization(b4 calling it a nite:

Brock Chisolm, Director, World Health Organization:


"To achieve world government, it is necessary to remove from the minds of men their individualism,
loyalty to family tradition,
national patriotism and religious dogmas...

The reinterpretation and eventual eradication of the concept of right and wrong

which has been the basis of child training,

the substitution of intelligent and rational thinking for faith in the certainties of the old people,

these are the belated objectives...For charting the changes of human behaviour."

[Pallas180]

143. "We Will Have A World Govt Whether You Like It Or Not"

February 17th, 1950, as he (James Walburg) testified before the U.S. Senate:

"We will have a world government whether you like it or not. The only question is, whether that government will be achieved by conquest or consent."

~ James Paul Warburg; Foreign Agent of the Rothschild Dynasty,
major player in the Federal Reserve Act

[coeur_de_lion]

152. I'm still here, they haven't carried me off for wearing an anti-* T-shirt

or anything. Just went to bed early last night. And honestly don't have much to say, with regard to the most recent postings. My focus is the Plame investigation because that is what got me involved in the thread in the first place. Other stuff is interesting to me but there isn't much I can do about it -- there is something I can do about Plame.

I have my own personal reasons for being interested in the Plame investigation. My Dad was an intelligence officer so I take something like this personally. I can imagine what might have happened to my family if someone did this to my father. Plus I think that * has gotten so arrogant that he thinks he will not be punished for what is so clearly a crime against his own country. Just illustrates to me (as if I didn't already know) that he does not have the best interests of his country in mind when he performs his duties as POTUS. He is willing to take down a covert operation in order to hide his activities and cover his a**. I'm hoping that when this all comes to a head it will be apparent to everyone, including * supporters, that this man is self-serving and would sell us all to the devil to remain in power.

I'll still pay attention because it is all very interesting stuff but my intentions and actions will remain on the Plame investigation.

Pallas hope you are getting some sleep. I will be working from home all weekend, and may check in from time to time. I won't have time to do any major research or post much. I still think we need to concentrate on spreading the word and waking up our senators.

[TacticalPeek]

142. Gentlemen, start your engines!

Salon article, Joseph Wilson vs. the right-wing conspiracy (click on 'Powells Books' for free pass to see full article): http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/07/16/wilson



AND, Amb Wilson's 'Cheney Yourself' letter to the Intel Committee:

Dear Sen. Roberts and Sen. Rockefeller,

I read with great surprise and consternation the Niger portion of Sens. Roberts, Bond and Hatch's additional comments to the Senate Select Intelligence Committee's Report on the U.S. Intelligence Community's Prewar Assessment on Iraq. I am taking this opportunity to clarify some of the issues raised in these comments.

snip

In fact, Valerie was not in the meeting at which the subject of my trip was raised. Neither was the CPD reports officer. After having escorted me into the room, she departed the meeting to avoid even the appearance of conflict of interest. It was at that meeting where the question of my traveling to Niger was broached with me for the first time and came only after a thorough discussion of what the participants did and did not know about the subject. My bona fides justifying the invitation to the meeting were the trip I had previously taken to Niger to look at other uranium-related questions as well as 20 years living and working in Africa, and personal contacts throughout the Niger government. Neither the CPD reports officer nor the State analyst were in the chain of command to know who, or how, the decision was made. The interpretations attributed to them are not the full story. In fact, it is my understanding that the reports officer has a different conclusion about Valerie's role than the one offered in the "additional comments." I urge the committee to reinterview the officer and publicly publish his statement.

snip

It is essential that the errors and distortions in the additional comments be corrected for the public record. Nothing could be more important for the American people than to have an accurate picture of the events that led to the decision to bring the United States into war in Iraq. The Senate Intelligence Committee has an obligation to present to the American people the factual basis of that process. I hope that this letter is helpful in that effort. I look forward to your further "additional comments." (ed., Bwaaahahahahaha!)

Sincerely,

Joseph C. Wilson IV, Washington, D.C.



Beaucoup more:
http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2004/07/16/wilson_letter

A VERY complete letter.


Thank God for Joe Wilson!

:evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin:



(Incidentally, "Sens. Roberts, Bond and Hatch" should be forced to resign their seats on the Intel Committee, if there is ANY integrity left in the R Party - holds breath, turning blue - especially Hatch; others have done so for far less grievous offense.)

[Pallas180]

146. John F. Kennedy was assassinated 10 days after he said:

"The high office of President has been used to foment a plot to destroy the American's freedom and before I leave office I must inform the Citizen of his plight."
~ President John F. Kennedy -Assassinated 10 days later!

[shraby]

147. Where did you find that?

[Pallas180]

148. A treasure-trove - some are mind boggling :

http://www.wealth4freedom.com/wns/famous_quotations.htm

[Pallas180]

149. ACLU Steps In On Being Arrested For Wearing Anti-*ush T-Shirts

http://www.herald-dispatch.com/2004/July/15/update.htm


I really think we ought to all send them some money/membership

cause boy do we need them.

Sued Secret Service for segregating anti-Bush protestors.

[Pallas180]

150. TACTICAL-This one's for you-SidneyBlumenthal-TheGuardian

The Senate Intel Report on The Plame Affair
The DA Vince Code of The Iraq WAr


http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1261608,00.html
Sidney Blumenthal
Thursday July 15, 2004
The Guardian

The Senate intelligence committee report is the Da Vinci code of the Iraq war. Some of the clues are in plain sight but unless one knows how to read them they remain cryptic. Deletions, covering one-fifth of the report, and omissions, stretching endlessly, are as significant as what's included. The storyline is jumbled into incoherence, the main characters are often spectral and it's all extremely dangerous.

-snip-


By virtue of a deal struck before the committee investigated, the belligerent Republican majority got timorous Democrats to separate the inquiry into halves, leaving the question of the Bush administration's culpability for a second report, almost certainly to be filed after the election,

-snip-

What the report does not note is the name or background of the NIE's director: Robert Walpole, a former national intelligence officer on nuclear weapons, a factotum of the secretary of defence, Donald Rumsfeld. Walpole had demonstrated his bona fides in an incident that prefigures the WMD debacle, the writing of the alarmist report of the Rumsfeld commission in 1998, which asserted the ballistic missile threat from "rogue states" was imminent. That claim, used to bolster the case for a Star Wars programme, had been rejected by a similar commission two years earlier.

The report also does not deal with the creation of an alternative intelligence operation inside the Pentagon, the Office of Special Plans, which bypassed regular channels to send fabricated material originating mostly in Ahmed Chalabi's disinformation factory.

But buried in the appendix, Senator John D Rockefeller, Democrat of West Virginia, included an account of an internal operation against the CIA conducted by the under-secretary of defence, Douglas Feith, an entrenched neo-conservative.

While the CIA composed a report on the Iraq-al-Qaida connection, which the administration still trumpets, and for which the intelligence community could never find proof, Feith held briefings trashing the CIA on its impending report. Then, without informing the CIA, Feith's version was presented to the deputy national security adviser and vice-president.

Colin Powell put himself in the hands of people he hoped would protect him. Predictably, he was betrayed. Before his February 5 2002 speech to the United Nations, making the case for WMD, Powell spent days at the CIA. He was given disinformation about mobile biological weapons laboratories, which came from Iraqi exile sources that the CIA didn't trust. The day before Powell's speech, one CIA official wanted to warn him. Another replied, "As I said last night, let's keep in mind the fact that this war's going to happen regardless of what said or didn't say, and the Powers That Be probably aren't terribly interested in whether knows what he's talking about." Powell was sent before the world to speak the falsehoods with CIA director George Tenet sitting behind him. Never before has a secretary of state, the highest ranking cabinet officer, been treated with such contemptuous manipulation by his own administration.

The NIE was condensed to a one-page document and sent to the White House, which still refuses to release it to the committee. The full classified version contains dissenting caveats in its footnotes. But were those included in the one-page summary? And did Bush read the NIE in any form? On July 18 2003, in an overlooked briefing to the White House press corps, "a senior administration official" explained: "I don't think he sat down over a long weekend and read every word of it. But he's familiar, intimately familiar with the case."

In the bestselling thriller The Da Vinci Code, paintings and signs contain the keys to the code. The Senate report, despite missing crucial information, still helps crack the code about Bush and his apostles. Bush is revealed as having a blithe disregard for anything that might interfere with his articles of absolute belief - a man of faith.

[TacticalPeek]

297. Thanks, Pallas.

I love to read Sid's analyses; he always has some new angles and keeps his eye on the ball.

[coeur_de_lion]

351. Excellent article, Pallas

[coeur_de_lion]

153. Way cool, Tactical Peak. Thanks for posting that.

As H2O said he would, Wilson is fighting back. Excellent!

[kohodog]

155. Good Morning!

Another beautiful day. What will we learn and what can we do to to make a difference today?

Hope you are all rested and well!

[H2O Man]

159. Thank you, friend kohodog!

I'm going to post a few messages on here this morning, and then get back to preparing for a few public presentations .... also I have a little work to do on the Wall of Tolerance, a project by the Southern Poverty Law Center .... which will be a beautiful and much-needed Civil Rights Memorial and Research/Educational Center. I'm proud to say that my name is one of those going on the "wall" with the other people who have taken our lumps in our efforts to create a nation where thereis tolerance -- and respect and even appreciation! -- for peoples of all ethnic, religious, socio-economic, and life-style peoples.

Anyone who wants to donate a few $$ to this project, which is "co-chaired" by Rosa Parks (!), can send a donation to the SPLC's Wall of Tolerance Project; 400 Washington Ave; Montgomery, AL 36104.

[coeur_de_lion]

165. thanks, kohodog! I'm doing rather well, just a little busy!

It is indeed a beautiful day.

After 5:00 today I'll be on and review the day's activity. My contribution this next week will probably be limited to writing letters and reading and/or commenting on the latest postings.

I'm at work so I must sign off but happy posting! I'll be back after work to see what everybody has had to say today.

[H2O Man]

156. Good morning!

Yesterday my friend Pallas180 wrote about how bush got the US into the war with Iraq .... and how our discussion of bush -- is he simply stupid or does he have a severe form of personality pathology? -- which we addressed on thread #1.....

I read every post last night. The quotes, from both good and bad characters, are fascinating. So I thought that I wouls start off the morning with a few .... and who better to quote in an effort to understand "why Iraq?" than Richard Pearle?

In an artice titled, "Thank God for the Death of the UN" ( The Guardian; 3-21-03) Pearle wrote: "Saddan Hussein's reign of terror is about to end. He will go quickly, but not alone: in a parting irony, he will take the UN down with him. ....What will dies is the fantasy of the UN as the foundation of a new world order. As we sift the debris, it will be important to preserve, the better to understand, the intellectual wreckage of the liberal conceit of safety through international law administered by international institutions."

If you will allow me the pleasure of making a couple small connections between this and our on-going journey into the state of current affairs: Pearle et al are intent on destroying that "liberal" part of the UN .... and, for that matter, the liberal part of the CI/MI, the House of Representatives and Senate, and of the Federal Court system, .... that makes the concept of "war" an undesirable phenomenon .... and would bring to fruition the truths spoken by Haille Selassie on 2-28-1968 in which he spoke of finding the path to world peace by the healing and curing the disease of hatred and violence. These same truths that have been spoken by people including the Kennedy brothers, King, Lennon, and others who were murdered for the threat they posed to those who profit from hatred and war.

These demons in the administration are certainly looking to have their neocon foundation for the basis of the "new world order," which will include "low-intensity" conflicts in 3rd world countries, the starvation of 4th world countries, and a lack of medical care for the "undesirable" populations around the world.

[H2O Man]

157. True conservative opinion on this scandal:

Samuel Dash wrote the following opinion for Newsweek in October of last year. Dash is a former senior Watergate counsel and also was an advisor on ethics (briefly!) for Special Prosecutor Kenneth Starr.

"If, as now seems likely, top White House aides leaked the identity of an undercover agent, they may have commited an act of domestic terrorism as defined by the dragnet language of the Patriot Act their boss wanted so much to help him catch terrorists.

Section 802 of the act defines, in part, demosetic terrorism as 'acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any state' that 'appear to be intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian population.'

Clearly, disclosing the identity of a CIA undercover agent is an act dangerous to life -- the lives of the agent and her contacts abroad whom terrorist groups can now trace -- and a violation of the criminal laws of the United States.

And what about the intent of those White House officials in disclosing this classified information? Surely, this mean-spirited action on their part was for the purpose of intimidating the CIA agent's husband .... who had become a strong critic of the Bush Administration's Iraq policies. And not just Wilson. By showing their willingness to make such a dangerous disclosure, the White House officials involved were sending a message to all critics of the administration to beware that they too can be destroyed if they persist. That apparent intention 'to intimidate or coerce a civilian population' -- in this case American citizens -- also meets the definition of domestic terrorism.

....The history of White House scandals teaches a primary lesson. delay, obfuscation, and cover-up only make the scandal worse and creates a quagmire that harms the presidency. President Bush has only one option. He should use his power as president and his control over his aides to demand that the leakers come forward and he should kick them out of the White House."

[H2O Man]

160. "Intelligence failure or policy failure?"

The editorial in this week's Irish Echo, the largest Irish-American newspaper in the country, sounds as if it were authored by the DU Plame Indictment crew. (grin) It is a blistering attack on the bush administration's efforts to try to pin the blame for their failures on to the CIA. The editorial notes that the Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board "was created earlier this year under mounting public and political pressure, and after the 1,400 weapons inspectors of the Iraq Survey Group, led by David Kay, reported that they found no evidence that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction .....the administration brought the FIAB into being only to head off what would very likely have been a more agressive congressional inquiry." It further notes the FIAB was geared to avoid "tackl(ing) the issue of whether the Bush Administration may have exaggerated and manipulated pre-war intelligence."

The editorial, which holds CI responsible for some of the errors, places the most blame exactly where it belongs, naming Richard Pearle, Paul Wolfowitz, & Douglas Feith, and concludes that President Bush has made the world a far more dangerous place with his reckless actions.

[MoonRiver]

161. Thanks for keeping US up to date on this important issue, H2O Man!

When Kerry gets the presidency and we take back the Senate, plus hopefully the House or at least have higher numbers there, we'll see action in this matter. Sadly, not till then I fear.

:yourock:

[Tellurian]

162. Please don't rely on Kerry getting the presidency...

It's too easy to let simple solutions color the war, with rose colored glasses, we are about to fight. The Bushes are not going to go away easy. On paper, an election is the remedy for a change of regime. It's just not going to happen that way. They won't let it..

Things are going to get alot worse before they get better.

[redstateblues]

163. Can They Delay This Til After The Election ala Nixon?

My fear is that they will be able to delay this nastiness until after the election the way Tricky Dick did in '72. Surely they have a plan for that.

[H2O Man]

164. They certainly are trying to.....

Think about if this were the Clinton Administration, and Gore had set up a group for intel purposes, and that group tried to knee-cap CI/MI, and included in that effort was a vicious exposure of a CI operative working at THE HIGHEST LEVEL of cover on a sting regarding the sale of components of WMDs.

Would Congressman Jack Kingston, R-Georgia, have the nerve to sit on the 9-29-03 CNN Crossfire, and say that Plame was merely a "glorified secretary?" What a insult not only to Plame, who operated at THE HIGHEST LEVEL OF UNDECOVER INTEL .... but also to secretaries, male and female, as well as all women. What an asshole. (Excuse my cursing; my back hurts!)

Or think about the article "Plame's Lame Game," posted on the internet by its author Christopher Hitchens. This contributor to Vanity Fair, and the people who follow his lead (including a shadow who posted it on DU two nights ago, only to be confronted and corrected by our group) is a sad man. It's cute to see children imitate adults they admire; and it is a healthy part of human development for teens to mimic their role models. But when an adult like Hitchens apes his hero, the slimmy toad William F. Buckley, all I can think of is an Elvis imitator. Has he NO SHAME?

(His article, in the full text, includes a line that everyone here will appreciate: "But it does draw attention to an interesting aspect of this whole debate: the (unexpected) solidarity of the left with the CIA." Do you think they expected "the left" -- including groups like our own -- to support Plame et al?)

No, were it Gore and his associates that committed this crime, there would be an immediate an intense congressional investigation.

I'm sorry if I've offended anyone by cursing or making references to a person's being, as opposed to the "issues," as I generally try to stick to. We all have our weak moments. (smile) But the line of crap coming out of the White House & friends needs to be confronted for what it is. I also think it is a good measure of what a sensitive area this is for them ..... keeping in mind Malcom X's saying that when he heard a shrill shriek from his enemy , he knew he was on the right track!

To my very good friend Pallas180, who continues to be a source of strength to this group, and a source of pride to me: am I writing letters? Yes! I write many, many letters. I make it a practice to never ask of others what I am unwilling to do myself. I'm also in contact with a few college-aged people, who are an inspiration, and who are hoping to bring the Waterman out of retirement .... they want to put out a newspaper, geared towards college-aged people .... to increase voter registration, education, and participation. Issue #1 may be on this case ..... so how can I possibly say no? (smile) We may be building bridges to a larger group .... very soon .... and this research team/think tank will certainly be a part of that effort.

[Pallas180]

174. H20, Pallas acknowledges with a bow of the head:) College contacts

are very important H20 - there are many rumblings that they're apathetic to the political situation - and the rethuglicans have made
a concerted effort to turn them away from the polling booths, telling
them they have to vote at their dormitories instead of their homes, or at their homes instead of their dormitories.

An Ohio democrat in the house of reps has been making the point that this is misleading information and they are being turned away from their right to vote, so that may be something you want to emphasize in your Issue #1.

Having been a passenger in an auto accident also with resultant tearing and disc distortions, I commiserate with your back pain. No
one can actually understand how such an occurrence changes your life and limits your activities, unless they experience it, which I don't wish on anyone.

Nevertheless, Waterman, you ARE out of retirement :), and since this is the most important election of our lifetimes, or fight if there is to be no election, I think there is no choice for anyone who loves the America that used to be, except to do all in their power to return this country to its decency and glory.

Now get to work.

[StandUpGuy]

249. Pallas

Let me start by saying that being at DU has really changed my impression of how Americans viewed these issues discussed in this epic thread.
I used to believe that it would take an international boycott of brand America and a systematic attack of bases position around the world to make then economically unviable.

I feared that American people had been offered the real choices and chosen greed and exploitation as long as they didn't have to see it.

But reading DU I have read thousands of posts by Real Americans the type you see in movies, the type you hear your parents and grand parents talk about meeting during the war.

Brave, Honest, Descent, Caring people from ALL walks of life.

I realize now that the motivated efforts of the people in your country are having no impact to your global appearance because you haven't ever been given the true choices or been allowed to discuss real alternatives.

We are currently witnessing a struggle between imperial western powers to wrestle control of the world's resources.

2 problems.

The current economic system is destroying the Environment at an unprecedented rate and it's not just junk science on global warming.

The current economic system causes suffering and inequality leading do death and misery for most of the people on the planet.

This election the main issues I see the candidates discuss.

The war on Iraq/Terrorism

Homeland Security

The Economy


Are there ANY radical new Ideas that even remotely address the issues that have been discussed in these threads?

This is a long winded way of asking you why you think this is the most important election in our lifetime if the issues being debated are the same as every election. The new issues, the Wars and home land security, the two leading candidates (even the third and fourth) aren't addressing the true nature of the threats, instead are trying to out do each other proposing solutions to problems that don't really exist?

I'll let you answer before I rant on about how I think we should fight the power.

[shraby]

254. The difference with this election is

this time we're fighting for the life of our nation as our founding fathers envisioned it. Kerry can't run on it because a lot of Americans only know what is fed to them on the news and wouldn't believe it. Bush can't run on it because the danger isn't supposed to exist. It's up to "we the people" who know and realize the danger democracy is in to get the traitors out of office and after that is done, we can put pressure on Kerry and congress like you wouldn't believe to put things back the way they were before Bush and then go from there to put laws in place to keep it from happening again.

[StandUpGuy]

262. Have you received the personal guarantee from Kerry.

or is it blind faith that you will still have the strength of numbers and sentiment after the ABB campaign wraps up and Kerry is crowned.

How many Americans believe Bush Jr is the problem, will be active as hell to defeat him, then go smugly back to sleep once bush has been sent back to Crawford. (like he would really go there). That would leave the fringe radicals left to force Kerry into real change.

Which Bush are you referring to when you say put things back to the way they were before Bush?

And what do you hope laws will prevent happening again ?

The topics in this thread highlight systemic failures in the global economic and political systems. How can simply defeating bush and hoping Kerry will fix things provide anyone with hope. Where is the leverage needed to make Kerry do anything close to what needs to be done.

What if Bushco has never had any intention of winning a second term and can hardly believe they still have supporters.

What if Bush Jr's mission was to plunge us so far down the rabbit hole that Kerry or anyone would struggle or fail to fight and fix things.

What if Kerry and the Bush defeat becomes the Big distraction we've all been expecting in November.

For the record I am not anti Kerry I am 100% anti ABB and I feel NOW is the time to get Kerry to play ball and talk real.

Has republican lite ever worked anywhere ?

edit:
Are there more pissed off republicans voting for Kerry or are there more scared Green/Naderites voting for Kerry.

If the answer is even close we have way more leverage than kerry will admit.

[Jose Diablo]

329. Standupguy you raise some interesting points

It all gets down to Kerry's integrity, IMHO.

When we examine others we make decisions on who we perceive them to be. I would suggest that Kerry, even though a member of the 'elite' has a 'common' man deep inside. I perceive this from his actions when he returned from 'Nam and became active in politics. I don't think his action of discounting his 'emblems' of military achievement during 'Nam were merely political grandstanding. I think we see somebody that truly hated what happened in 'Nam and wanted to do what he could do to stop it, forever.

Yet being just a man, he had to 'work' the system to get to a point to make real changes.

In summary, I think we may see another FDR with Kerry.

As for War and why society needs it. Forget about Clausewitz, he was a piker when it came to understanding how mankind's 'ant farm' really operates. I would suggests our very powerful intellectuals on the left analyze the following information at this link to see if it represents the actual reasons our culture needs War and suggest a different methodology for solving the problems with our culture that makes War inevitable.

http://www.internetpirate.com/Report%20From%20Iron%20Mountain.htm

The Report From Iron Mountain

by Leonard Lewin

My thanks to Octofish for bringing Internetpirate site to my attention. Sometimes these "conspiracy theory" sites have some really interesting views.

[Pallas180]

319. SHRABY YOU;RE RIGHT. they have to be pressured to undo all the treachery

.

[shraby]

322. Thank you Pallas.

With the power of the internet we may be able to keep pressure on once we get Kerry elected. Hopefully he's an honorable man. He seems to be in my estimation.
He went to Vietnam by volunteering to go..twice.
When he came back he did what he could to end the war.
He used his education to enter the system so he could be more effective.
The only "dirt" the Republicans have on him is he threw his medals over the fence and his "liberal" voting record.
If they had more, they would use it.

[kohodog]

263. Standup,

You are spot on. This election is about our freedom and democracy. We must regain balance in the system if we have any hope of instituting the kind of policies that will lead to justice and sanity. Kerry will stop some of the bleeding, but you are right to say that environmental and racial issues will not be properly addressed. But to leave * in office would be disastrous. He refused to address the NAACP, has yet to meet with the Congressional Black Cacus, has removed us from untold treaties and dismantled every environmental statute he can find.

We are a long way from where we want to be, but we are toast if we become a one party system run by this group.

[StandUpGuy]

267. I would agree if it were not for the spirit of the American people

The system is rotten and it is being propped up by the corporate elite as a smoke and mirrors game to fool us into believing we have free will and choice.

Unless we use our leverage now to expose the weakness in the system and demand fundamental fixes to the global issues we ALL face we will be once again fooled into another accepting a new regime.

"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss"

Yes Kerry promised to be fairer to the people and more generous to the working class and poor, and yes he does have a " liberal" senate record.

Yes he Promises a cleaner environment than George Bush. Yes he has a good Senate record on the environment.

But these are all rigged relatives.

Based on the continued exploitation of poor people around the world can anyone claim a good record.

Relative to the destruction of Bio-diversity western Capitalism has wrought can anyone claim a good record.

[shraby]

271. Do you suggest we sit on out hands

and let dubya get back in the driver's seat? If Kerry goes too far and alienates totally the republicans who may be inclined to vote for him because of environment issues, or whatever...we will probably lose and get another 20 years of dubya. Yes 20 cause he will have no restrictions anymore in his agenda. I refuse to criticize Kerry until he is in the white house. I'm terrified of Bush.

[StandUpGuy]

279. Shraby

I asked in one post..

Are there more pissed republicans voting for Kerry
or
Are there more scared green/naderite even leffty Dem's voting Kerry.


Add to the mix the HUGE portion of the population that doesn't vote.

If Kerry's key to victory lies in Scared Greens, Naderites, and leffy Dem's holding there nose in an Anybody but Bush vote, we should really hold that vote hostage until Kerry speaks to the real issues. Issues we have discussed in these threads and on this site for a long time.

[kohodog]

284. FDR was very moderate during his campaign,

And so was Bush. I was for Dean because I thought he has the guts to take a stand. There is a sliver of hope that Kerry is more progressive than he appears.

Regardless, the fight for human rights and justice will not be solved in November. It will take a great awakening. Teach your children well. And teach them not to fear, as fear may be the worst impediment of all (not to mention one of this administration's favorite weapons.

[StandUpGuy]

289. Its more serious than that I think.

The United states and Great Britain are locked in a desperate struggle to maintain global hegemony.

Over 1000 U.S troops have been killed already.
And there have been 3000 US civilian casualties.

September 11 did not happen in a bubble.

The terrorist did not attack us because we are free.

The struggle for human right will be something I hope to teach my kids about cause we are living it right now.

The draft is coming yes ?


Edit to change flamebait subject line sorry

[Pallas180]

320. STAND UP GUY- absolutely not. No way can Kerry tell what he knows.

The American people couldn't handle it the way we have laid it out here

[StandUpGuy]

283. The American people will not stand...

Another 4 years!!

If he wins I kind of think he might become the great uniter he always promised to be. If you get my drift.

My biggest fear is that we lose momentum after a Kerry victory.
The average angry person in America Needs to know what they should really be mad at, and who they should focus that anger toward.

Bush Jr is just the target we've been given to shoot at.

We fall into the trap if we think we can convince people that once defeated Bush wasn't really the enemy.

[Pallas180]

312. STANDBY- Why We Know This's The Most Important Election In Our Lifetime?

STAND BY, I didn''t mean this to be such a long explanation, but it is. I tried to make it as simple as possible both for myself and you.
So here it is:

Are there ANY radical new Ideas that even remotely address the issues that have been discussed in these threads?"

If the candidates, who do know this, were to tell the average American all of what we discuss on these threads, most Americans would never believe it. They might as well be telling them that Martians have landed. If you had been with most of the threads, you must have seen how shocked many of us were as we researched, found, and put the pieces together.

"This is a long winded way of asking you why you think this is the most important election in our lifetime if the issues being debated are the same as every election. The new issues, the Wars and home land security, the two leading candidates (even the third and fourth) aren't addressing the true nature of the threats, instead are trying to out do each other proposing solutions to problems that don't really exist?

No, these issues are far different from "every election". We never had a security issue before and we are not at war every 4 years. They talk about our economic issues, job issues,healthcare, education issues, returning America to what is supposed to be. Americans threw out the last president who made war, Vietnam, and elected one who promised to end it. We still believe in promises (:. Home Land Security is a bunch of baloney. An excuse to curtail the liberties of the American people and the country, but we don't know where the money has gone that has been given to them, because it has not gone to security. Economic problems exist, the war is a major issure. Americans don't want to be at war, and were fooled into it. Now 60% think he lied to get us into the war.

STANDBY, I am moved by your recognition of the everyday American. What you are meeting on DU is our minds, our true thoughts, and that is who most Americans really are as a people.

I'm going to attempt to put this in simplistic terms, because it's not a simplistic subject.

1)About 39% of Americans recognize the problems in the world, the consumption, the starvation, disease, and the injustice, the diminishing resources and want to do things to change that situation and help.

2)Another 39% recognize it and say, "grab as much as we can for ourselves" (while they also run around saying "I'm a Fundamentalist Christian and everybody else in the world better be too or they're going to go to hell")

The other 22% seem to be totally unaware of the world around them. They have no opinions, maybe because they are just so beaten down by the struggle to survive, which is the only immediate goal they can handle.

The second 39% are in control of this country and this government right now. We have discovered that even when they weren't in the White House they were inside the government working away at undermining the good things that government attempted to do.

The second 39% and their governing adheres to the philosophy of the multi-national corporations who don't care about the individual person or about an individual nation. Their interest is their bottom line; their financial statement. They are not interested in paying a living wage, because that means less profit for the Corporation. They are not interested in saving the environment because that means less profit for the Corporation. They are not interested in producing cars and machines that don't run on gasoline because it means the expense of re-tooling their factories, and why should they have to if no one is making them, and this government is not making them. Our heating and electricity is run on oil instead of wind, and solar because that is how they build our houses. When organizations lobby for and suggest other methods, saving the environment, saving oil, saving the waters, they're called tree-huggers.

You're correct. At least for the past 40 years other choices and alternatives should have been offered to the American people but weren't and when they were, such suggestions brought quick squelching by the Corporations. High mileage cars would mean less money for the oil and gas companies; solar panel houses would mean less money for oil and gas companies and their associated industries. Many many everyday products are made out of oil by product: plastic, carpet, machines, furntiure and et al.

Now most of the people who post on DU and many in America are aware that "peak oil" exists and if they aren't are learning about it. The government hasn't told us. Reading books and the internet tell us. The Western powers, America and Britain have not told their people we're running out of oil and everything is going to stop if we don't get some more, and it's our fault because we didn't plan for this and change the country to a different kind of energy. And they can't or won't make that honest admission out of a fear
Of panic. And so: We are currently witnessing a struggle between imperial western powers to wrestle control of the world's resources.

Many people don't know about " peak oil". and that I guess is why Britain and America's leaders had to come up with a "story" about Iraq being a threat, and couldn't tell the truth that this war was for oil. They were afraid there would be rioting in the streets. Those people who supported the war didn’t believe the American government would lie or make war on another country to steal its resources, and now are just beginning to believe it. Sure it's a little slow, but better late than never. People like those on DU knew it immediately because the people in the White House now are oil magnates. We knew from the beginning of his making noises about attacking Iraq. We were out in the streets with signs. Did you see the millions of people in America, in every little city, and in big cities demonstrating against war?? Yes we did.

The remaining 22% of the American people are busy with two jobs and trying to feed a family, and keep up with the expenses of food and a roof over their head and putting their children through school.

They don't realize that this government is downgrading the education their children receive purposely, and though they are working and saving and hoping to send their children to college for a better life and a better job, they have not yet realized that college will be unattainable for their children. The "middle" class of this country is being "lower" classed. The present government by raiding the treasury has taken away many social programs that every American could partake in and that many poorer or older Americans needed financially. That means they have higher expenses for medicines and medical care. At the same time that financial programs are being taken from the people, the Corporations wanted to raise their profit level even more, so they began laying off people or asking employees to take pay cuts in order to keep their jobs. Finally, so many people are out of work that the remaining jobs can offer lower salaries because there are 20 people vying for one job. The higher paying jobs which would keep them in the middle class are being made unavailable by the Corporations sending the jobs to other countries where people will work for 1/5 of what that job would pay in America. Lower paying jobs are being made available in this country now, what we have called blue collar jobs such as manual labor and service jobs. Engineers with three college degrees who earned $100,000 before but who have been out of work for two or three years are flipping hamburgers for $6.00 an hour.

Now we come to the people behind the curtain, who are really in control of this world and most of the governments, who the second 39% of Americans idolize (whom we call Republicans in this country) and who believe in the ideology of the powerful financial men behind the curtain. They are what is called the Federal Reserve Bank who actually took control of this country financially in the 1930's when it was taken off the gold standard, meaning you could no longer actually bring your dollar bill to be exchanged for gold. No American was allowed to own gold. And then the same people became the International Money Fund, and then more recently they became the World Trade Organization and G-8. They are the financiers of the world, of all countries and now they own America, as well as most of the other countries who are deeply in debt to them, in the same way you buy a house and ask for a mortgage from the bank and pay the bank interest for 30 years + principal, countries borrowed from these IMF and Federal Reserve in the billions and trillions of dollars and have to pay back interest and principal. They collect taxes from the residents of the countries to pay these debts and as the country becomes more in debt, there is less to spend on the people's programs and more taxes to collect to pay off the debt to the IMF and Federal Reserve.

They have come to a point where they can dictate how much each country will sell its apples for and whether that country will be allowed to sell its apples to a particular country or at all. They set the trade and the rules and this is what they have planned for decades. They call it One World Government and they, these financiers and a select group, are to be the rulers of the One World Government.

They lured all the peoples of the countries into this by saying the people would be better off financially. The first 39% of Americans thought that would be wonderful, because then everyone in the world's standard of living would be brought up and there would be less disease and starvation and poor people. Americans thought other peoples standard of living, and lifestyles would be better and closer to Americans. That didn't happen. What did happen is Americans' standard of living was and is being brought down while the other people's standards have remained the same: very low. Essentially the Corporations moved the jobs away to other countries where they could almost have slave labor. The shoes that cost less than $3 to make in China or elsewhere sell in America and elsewhere for $80 to $180. It is not the person who made the shoe in China who benefits from the big profit, it's the Corporation. Even if it used to be an American Corporation, it established itself in other countries, and is now a "Multi-national Corporation with allegiance to no country.

Why should other countries care that America does not have jobs, that its treasury has been raided, that America is not manufacturing and producing products? Because America's economy and the other countries' economies are so intertwined that if America sneezes(economically, the world catches a cold.

< i>The current economic system causes suffering and inequality leading do death and misery for most of the people on the planet.

We know. Americans are just as trapped in the economic system. Americans are suffering as I have explained to you as best as I can. They can't afford health care. While our taxes subsidize medicines for other countries at pennies a pill, we pay $10.00 for one pill. It is the rape of the American pocket by the Corporations. In many ways individual Americans and America as a country have been generous to other countries. (We didn't know that the aid we subsidized with our tax money was being given with "a catch" to it. ) Many healthy foods are outside of affordability for many Americans. Fast food is not healthy but is affordable. If two veal chops uncooked cost $20.00 and a McDonald's hamburger with french fries and a drink is $3.00, what are you going to buy?

Two of my friends volunteer in soup kitchens. Do you know what it is? Every one thinks of the "rich American". Do you know that we also have homeless people and areas, cities of poverty, which our own government has not resolved? That people here die because a hospital won't take them in without an insurance policy to pay the hospital, and which 40 million people here can't afford.

He and his cabal and the corporations unleashed have undone all the social programs in America to help people of the last 70 years. He and his cabal and the corporations have rolled back all the environmental laws which so many struggled to get into place to improve the environment and clean the waters and the air for the last 35 years. Are individual Americans responsible for this? Yes and No. Awareness of the Environment has been made to the people by private organizations perhaps for 35 years. Awareness that oil was not infinite and was destroying the environment has been made to the people for much less than that, probably the last decade.

Further down the thread H20 and I posted of our discovery of the intentional
Plan by this One World Government to allow genocide and disease in certain parts of the world. Did you know that Clinton wanted to stop the genocide years before he went into Kosovo and certain elements of this government refused him? Some of the same elements who are in prominent positions now? Did you know Americans were upset about Rwanda and the Congo but could not get our government to move? Shall you blame the individual American people? Do you know that our media is almost completely owned by the Multi-National Corporations now and we are propagandized and our news is censored? If we didn't have the internet, we wouldn't know what was going on in the world really, and that only about 60 million Americans have the internet?

The current economic system is destroying the Environment at an unprecedented rate and it's not just junk science on global warming.

We know. We are concerned. We were shocked that he and the cabal would not sign the agreements, but we the people are less in a position to control our government than we have ever been.

It is the Multi-Corporations, oil, pharmaceuticals, military industrial who have become in total control of this country. And these same Corporations are all over the world. They aren't American. They are "MULTI-NATIONAL" and have allegiance to no country. Now we know what the expression" Big Business" means. And one of the major families-players in this plan for World Domination & Control established themselves in the seat of government here; the White House and all the major offices of import in this country by stealing the last election.

The first group of 39% of Americans have caught onto what is happening and we hope it is not too late for us to wake up a lot of the rest of America. A lot of Americans will not believe that this is possible and will think we're nuts. These usurpers in the White House have curtailed Americans guaranteed liberties. There can be no liberty, for if you have liberty you have people thinking they have the right to and actually objecting to trees being cut down, to the environment being poisoned, to mercury being pumped into the waters and objecting to the waters and air being polluted by what the manufacturing Corporations dump into them.

That is what has happened to this country. The cabal and the corporations are very well entrenched at the seat of government and 50% to 60% or more of the people of America don't fully realize it or can't believe it. People here are becoming afraid. If they wear a t-shirt making fun of the WH they have been arrested. This government is capable of and has made plans to attack and subdue its own people. Please google "FEMA" and look at its rules. This country has "detention camps" built and waiting for people who protest and object.

If this present government fools the majority of people again, or steals the election again we will lose all our liberties and be completely controlled by the greedy Corporations. It will not be good for the health of Americans, or as we have seen for the health of the rest of the world.

I don’t know how old you are STAND BY. So I don't know what you know or don't know. Hitler's partner in the Second World War was Mussolini of Italy. They wanted to impose their philosophy and dominion over the world, very similar to what is happening today. Their Philosophy was called Fascism. Mussolini said " In truth, it should be called Corporatism because Fascism is the joining of the corporations and the state."


That is why this is the most important election of our lives.
We want the restoration of America.We are fighting for the Constitution of the United States, for the promised liberty, and not to be become a full police state called Fascism.

I hope this answers your questions. It's the best I can do.

[coeur_de_lion]

166. Tellurian, I concur

[Tellurian]

168. Thanks, arby...we now have a "secret agent museum.."

What better way to trivialize the importance of anonymity for covert CIA agents than this:

At the new International Spy Museum, you become the secret agent.

What better cover for a government spy than to claim retirement and run a museum? E. Peter Earnest, a 36-year veteran of the Central Intelligence Agency, couldn't think of one, so he teamed up with the International Spy Museum, which opened in Washington, D.C., in July.

Visitors adopt a cover, go to spy school, break codes, identify operatives, fall under covert surveillance, and learn about the lives of secret agents. The museum also boasts the largest collection of spy gadgets ever assembled for public display

http://www.popsci.com/popsci/science/article/0,12543,339833,00.html

The above is being marketed in conjunction with this site:

Gov't Websites can reveal personal info
Information you might not have realized was public property can often be found easily on-line.

July 6, 200

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Wondering how much your neighbor's house is worth? Or if he's given any money to a political candidate? Perhaps you'd like to know whether he's ever spent a night in jail, or the real reason behind his divorce.

http://money.cnn.com/2004/07/06/technology/personaltech/bc.column.livewire.reut/index.htm

[coeur_de_lion]

186. Oh, how simply adorable. Let's all go and learn how to be spies

The internet search thing I've known about for a long time. At my office we use the Property Appraiser's website a lot to confirm ownership. Out of curiosity, I looked around and most of the surrounding counties near where I work also have searchable sites. One county even has a scanned copy of the deed to look at. Our local newspaper has a searchable article archive, which even has property sales in it. Nothing is secret anymore.

You don't have to have anyone's social security number anymore to find out information about them. Especially if they have any kind of presence on the web for their business, or if they are politically active. Write a simple letter to the editor and you'll have a presence on the web.

It will get worse.

[Pallas180]

173. Good morning H20 the same occurred to me-lack of medical care for undesira

undesirable populations around the world and fomenting and ignoring genocide in those undesirable populations takes care of a "distasteful" problem for them.

Who can forget Reagan's refusal to do anything about AIDS,a non-action and a disease that has decimated the African continent. And who doesn't have the suspicion that it was one of the "biological" experiments that escaped the lab by accident or on purpose ? LIHOP or
MIHOP?

If Scaife- Melon is googled, you will find Scaife's mother and foundation contributed large sums of money to activities like sterilization, birth control of the "undesirables" from decades back and he continued the practice(is my recollection from research a couple of years back).

[Rose Siding]

167. Salon and Joe Wilson himself weigh in today

this was worth the day pass so I'll snip to entice

July 15, 2004
The Hon. Pat Roberts, Chairman, Senate Select Committee on Intelligence
The Hon. Jay Rockefeller, Vice Chairman, Senate Select Committee on Intelligence

Dear Sen. Roberts and Sen. Rockefeller,

I read with great surprise and consternation the Niger portion of Sens. Roberts, Bond and Hatch's additional comments to the Senate Select Intelligence Committee's Report on the U.S. Intelligence Community's Prewar Assessment on Iraq. I am taking this opportunity to clarify some of the issues raised in these comments.....

http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2004/07/16/wilson_letter/print.html

this title could have been "Joe And The Volcano"

Joseph Wilson vs. the right-wing conspiracy
Gleeful conservatives insist the Senate Intelligence Committee report impeached the former ambassador's claims about Iraq and uranium. But Wilson is firing back.

July 16, 2004 | WASHINGTON -- Choreographed editorials and Op-Ed pieces on Thursday in the Wall Street Journal and National Review and by conservative columnist Robert Novak signaled the revving up of a Republican campaign to discredit former ambassador Joseph Wilson and his claims that President Bush trumpeted flimsy intelligence in the drive to invade Iraq.

The opinion pieces came on the heels of a July 10 report in the Washington Post that said Wilson lied when he claimed in public statements that his wife, a covert Central Intelligence Agency officer, had not recommended him for a fact-finding mission to Niger in 2002.
...
The Washington Post story, meanwhile, took the disputed Senate report conclusions even further. It stated in its lead that Wilson was "specifically recommended for the mission by his wife ... contrary to what he has said publicly." In the interview, Wilson argued that the Post story failed to make clear that only the intelligence panel's Republicans, and not its Democrats, came to that conclusion. He said he has written a letter of protest to the Post.

The Post article also contained one acknowledged error: In trying to build a case that Wilson's Niger trip had actually bolstered the administration's claims, Schmidt wrote that Wilson had told the CIA that Iraq had tried to buy 400 tons of uranium from Niger in 1998. In fact, it was Iran that Wilson said had tried to make the purchase, as the Senate report states. The Post ran a correction.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/07/16/wilson/print.html

[Tellurian]

169. Tactical Peak started a discussion here for the salon article in LBN..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x689255

[coeur_de_lion]

188. Actually Tellurian Party Line's article is different from TP's

Tactical Peak's article refers to a 6-page rebuttal by Wilson. Party Line's article IS the 6-page rebuttal.

[Me.]

170. One for the Good Guys

One of the snail and e-mails I sent this week was to Joe Conason of Salon and The NY Observer. He wrote me back this morning, a small message that said "Thanks. I will check into this.". What surprised me was that he wrote it himself, it wasn't one of those form replies that are usually sent.

[Tellurian]

171. Joe Conason is one of a few journalists you can trust...

with reliable inside information, if you have it to offer.

[Pallas180]

175. HEY ME!! Jackpot! Conason is a hero of truth. Great move!

:bounce:

[ozymandius]

176. My two cents: Why indict now? Why not wait?

from my thread in GD:

At least until we are closer to the election. Ideally, I want to see those "senior" administration members indicted after the Republican convention. That is when each candidate's support will begin to form. An indictment of senior Bush administration officials will throw the whole "message" off balance.

The question aside from wedge issues will be - "Are you safer?" The answer is - "hardly so, now that Valerie Plame's network has collapsed."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2005536

Are Fitzgerald and the Grand Jury under any obligation to issue indictments at the moment they are justified?

[shraby]

181. Mods:

this thread is sinking. Bring it back to the top please.

It's at the top now, thank you.

[Pallas180]

184. HI SCHRABY, it's tough to send out letters and stay on thread

too...I gotta send out these letters to media..so guys
keep this live. See ya in a while

[Pallas180]

185. My latest letter sent from CRUSH

RE: HIGH CRIMES & MISDEMEANORS

Dear Senator:

Concerning Time magazine's Joe Klein's July 5 article, page 21 revealed that Valerie Plame was "active in a sting operation involving the trafficking of Weapons of Mass Destruction components"" when her identity was exposed by the White House. It also said" Only a high-ranking official could have had access to the knowledge" that Valerie Plame was a covert CIA agent.

1) Our study group has read that Vice President Cheney since 1995 as CEO of Halliburton was fined 1.2 milion dollars for illegal sales of similar components to Libya. Shortly before becoming Vice President he bitterly assailed US policy against selling such components to Syrria and Iran, which apparently hurt Halliburton's bottom line.

2) Our study group has also read that there is an investigation of Vice President Cheney in other countries for illegal bribery and various other offenses connected to Halliburton as well as paying amounts to secret Swiss bank accounts

3) A published article states The Atomic Energy Commission has said a North American company is one of 20 being investigated for black market sales of WMD materials.

Our study group suspects there is more to the White House revealing Valerie Plame's covert CIA status since the Republicans refuse to hold investigations on the matter.

Frankly, it would appear to us that possibly Valerie Plame was stopped in her tracks and the CIA sting operation was exposed because it was coming close to discovering another violation of the laws by our own Vice
President and the Hallibuton company he has awarded billions of US taxpayer dollars to in non-bid contracts.

There is a question of where the Vice President's and President's loyalty lie: to their Corporate friends and company's bottom line or to the security and wellbeing of the American people?

In any case, the exposure of Valerie Plame by the White House was and is treasonous.

The responsibility of the Media and Congress is to expose these wrong doings, investigate and safeguard against this type of occurrence for the American people.

WHY are you not fulfilling your role to me, to my study group, and the rest of the American people in this country and WHEN will you start ?

Sincerely
Mrs. Anna Pallas
For Citizens Restoring United States Honesty

[coeur_de_lion]

190. Good One! n/t

[Me.]

195. Just Shows To Go Ya O/T

You know Pallas, when I first saw your name I thought it was a nod to Pallas Athena. And now I see it's actually your name. How very cool! And thanks for the jumping frog on the Conason thing.

[Pallas180]

196. ME - Pssst - Pallas Athena, Goddess of Justice - I'll go for that

meanwhile as Im sending letters, Washington Whispers inthe New York
Post, as H20 says: The gaul of these people:

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/politics/whispers/whisphome.htm

"Cheney's chapter is titled "The Bush Doctrine: The War on Terrorism and America's Choice." Jeb Bush pens the introduction and says that his brother has returned dignity to the White House. "Americans are proud of their president again, because he stands for the values that make us a good and decent country."

could you fall over? lying again and again and F.U. is a return
of "dignity" to the White House.

hahahahahahahahahahahah

Who the hell would want to share what they call values?

Geez, if that's dignity, I guess what we've seen in Abu Grhaib is
really just "college fun" as they say.

That's what you get when you start out blowing up frogs with fire crackers.

barf. sick bastids.

[coeur_de_lion]

194. I'm with you, ozymandius. I think the best possible timing for this

to blow up would be right before elections. I was impatient for this to come out at first. After giving it a lot of thought I realized that the timing of the indictments could be almost as important as the crime itself. If it comes out now people may have forgotten it by the time 11/2 comes around.

The other thing I've thought about is, maybe it wouldn't be good for Cheney to go down because of this before the elections. Maybe right before the elections would be okay. But if * has time to stick someone more popular in the VP slot (McCain, Giuliani) because Cheney is out, it might mean that he still wins.

My theory is that the * administration is going to steal the election somehow. Then after the elections, stuff like this will come out, and there will be a history-making eruption over it. If * is re-selected I don't see him staying in office. I think his stink will be strong enough by then for everyone to smell it.

[shraby]

197. Does anyone know the procedure

of what happens when and if the indictments are announced?

[H2O Man]

200. The indictments are "sent" to a fedral court....

and they are assigned to a specific judge (or judges, depending on the number). Immediately, each person indicted will have a team of attorneys attempting to decide factors involving how to set the stage to the advantage of their client.

For example, Rove is going to separate from Abrams and Libby. Bet on it. He is not only upset at the trouble they have caused the president, but he is claiming he did not realize what he did violated federal law.

Abrams and Libby were given the information on Plame before the NYT op-ed article ran. The meetings in the VP's office started on March 8, 2003 .... four months before Wilson's article ran .... and it is clear that they were not able to access that information on their own. In fact, it HAD TO BE SOMEONE VERY, VERY HIGH UP ..... huh, who might that be, dicky-boy?

Now, think of the dynamics! Rove is angry with Abrams, Libby, and Cheney. He wants to protect his buddy from, ah, the growing cancer on the presidency. And he wants to protect himself!

Cheney knows that he is protected, no matter what. At very worst, he will have to "retire" from the VP position, but he'll be pardoned by bush NO MATTER WHAT. So he won't speak publicly or privately, or feel pressure to turn on his associates.

But Abrams and Libby are in a different position. Would bush pardon Abrams? Making it twice? Wow, that would go over like a lead brick. How about Libby? Is he going to keep his mouth shut, and take the weight for the Pilsbury Dough Boy Rove? When Rove testifies against him for favor?

Remember, these are guys that think they are big and tough when they are destroying other people's lives. Let's see how they handle the pressure.

[shraby]

201. Thank you H20

That was my original question when I started this thread that grew like Jack and the Beanstalk.
I think you are absolutely right in your assessment of what they will do. In fact, Abrams and Libby might split also, but the chances of them singing are pretty good.
As far as Cheney goes, he might be complacent but France is looking at him pretty hard. France even might find other infractions of the law as they uncover more stuff.

Rove can claim he didn't know it was a federal law, but ignorance of the law is no excuse, anyway that's what they tell the peons who have broken the law. At any rate, even I would know it is a no-no with substantial penalties.


edited to add.

[shraby]

202. One more question

Rove and Abrams don't have the authority to find out Plame's name, does Libby, or would it have to be Cheney who passes the name out.

[H2O Man]

208. Think about your question:

This is what I love -- these jackasses were saying, "Hey, Plame's identity was 'common knowledge' in Washington!" NO IT WASN'T!!!!! NO IT WASN'T!!!!! ONLY A HIGH-RANKING OFFICIAL COULD KNOW IT!!!!!

Plame's FAMILY DIDN'T KNOW! Her best friends DIDN'T KNOW!!! "People" in washington had NO IDEA what she did!!!! Think of this: all of the people who said it was "common knowledge" have screwed-up, uh, if you'll pardon the term, "big time!" Because they have IDENTIFIED THEMSELVES AS BEING AMONG THE GROUP FROM CHENEY'S OFFICE THAT SAT AND DISCUSSED HER!!!!! Get it? Be SURE that Fitzgerald gets it!

I think we've all figured out cheney. But I've been inserting another name of a human specimen who proved willing to SHUT DOWN WASHINGTON to promote his agenda. Newt Gingrich was at the 3-8-03 meeting in the vp's office.

There are no boundries, folks. The unelected have been running meetings in the offices of the "elected." The public military has been co-opted by the "private army." The vp runs a private intel group WITH NO CONGRESSIONAL OVERSIGHT. A disgraced person like Newt has more power today than when he was in office.

[shraby]

215. I see that Perle left

in March...is that significant? :evilgrin:

[H2O Man]

221. Yes.

Very.

[Pallas180]

225. When Mary Carville and the Karen Hughes left, I wondered what was

going on that they didn't want to be connected to when it was discovered. When was that? And shortly before or after Ari Fleisher
left...

When you see them leaving , you can't help think of the sinking ship.

[H2O Man]

229. Mary has more insight

into what a weasel Robert "NoFacts" is. Yes, her husband named him that.

I've never liked Karen. But she has more of a sense of decency that the others. And that's why you and many others knew something wasn't quite right when she left.

I will say this: when the White House made the move to get her back, I wasn't happy. She's good at what she does, usually. A hard woman to warm up to, cut-throat in general politics. But not in the league of reptilian slim as Abrams.

Hey, the democrats vs the reptilians. I like it.

[shraby]

222. Hopefully when the indictments

are handed out, we'll be hearing the Mormon Tabernacle Choir in court. Newt strikes me as one who can sing tenor.

[Pallas180]

223. "There exists a shadowy Government with its own Air Force

"There exists a shadowy Government with its own Air Force, its own Navy, its own fundraising mechanism, and the ability to pursue its own ideas of national interest, free from all checks and balances, and free from the law itself."

~ Senator Daniel K. Inouye - Iran Contra Hearings

They're still doing the same old thing. Only this time they weren't satisfied with govt. CI - so they installed their own shadow CI

[H2O Man]

231. Wilson writes about cheney's

"little known organization -- not accountable to Congress and virtually unknown to the American people .... Never in the history of our democracy has there been established such an influential and pervasive center of power with the ability to circumvent long-standing and accepted reporting structures and to skew decision-making practices. It has been described to me chillingly by a former senior government official as a coup d'etat within the State."

[Pallas180]

238. And that is absolutely what it is. A govt. within the govt. These

people are not satisfied to have come out of the shadows,and
be in govt. They want to devour the established govt. from the inside
out.

This is not John Dean's cancer on the presidency.

This is cancer eating the government from the inside, the guts of the
government out.

And it is what Jay Rockefeller is accusing Libby of.

But does Cheney have so much power H20, that Rockefeller is afraid to
come out and accuse Cheney of setting up a secret CIA ???

[H2O Man]

245. Yes.

At this time. And for very good reason. This is serious business -- and I know YOU know that -- but this is very serious. Early on, I said that we are at a point in time unlike anything our nation has ever faced before.

If the Soviet Union had invaded the United States in 1960, and the KGB did one-tenth the shit that has happened since, there would have been wide-spread resistance.

The forces entrenched in our system are worse. But about 40% of the voting public responds to the Ronald McDonald of world politics .... and I'm serious when I say that Ronald McDonald is worthy of equal consideration as a "war president" .... or a political theorist.

And half of those who can vote, don't. So the take-over of the United States has been occuring without resistance from a public that has little or no understanding of what is happening.

[ozymandius]

240. Gingrich is still on the Defense Policy Board. n/t

[Pallas180]

246. Newt Gingrich is a dangerous person ideologically and politically.

He's very very clever. The only thing that tripped him up was his
greed. A cold blooded predator. I'm a little surprised he's in
with the Neo Cons and I wonder if he was neo-con while he was in Congress and achieved the balance going to the republicans.

Too bad he's not implicated. Yet.

Because he's not going away.

And we may have to deal with him in a position of power some day,
as President or Veep.

Washington knows he's a little thief.

But Republicans would elect him.

[Me.]

203. Do You Really Think There is a Big "I" for Rove Coming Down the Pike?

Also H20Man, is ignorance of the law a valid defense for Rove? While I understand it isn't usually, is it different for this case? I believe that it's been stated in the history of this affair that intent is a factor when outing an agent but is there any way of actually getting out of this with an "I didn't know". How would this case differ, if it in fact does?

[merh]

210. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse for anyone.

It is just a saying. Intent will not come into play either. If you know someone is an agent and you leak or release that info, then you broke the law. It is that simple.

[Pallas180]

204. H20 - how do you know Rove is claiming he didn't know that he

did violated the law?

And if it were only Rove, Abrams, Libby and Cheney
dimson would not be going to see Attorney Sharp or is that Shark? hehe
(punchy from emailing)

If both Cheney and dimson are implicated, as I think they are, then dimson is not going to be able to pardon Cheney..but you're right, if
they're both forced out, then Hastert would pardon, or whoever is chosen as VP would pardon Cheney and then later dimson when and if he's removed.

Call me an optimist, I think there's a very good chance of their both being removed.

[H2O Man]

220. Okay, folks, this is your administration....

and this is your administration on trial:

From page 444 of Wilson's book, we learn that two journalists told Joseph that when David Corn's article came out in The Nation, and stated that "whoever" leaked the information was "possibly" guilty of a federal violation, Rove freaked. Let me repeat, for our reading pleasure, Rove freaked.

How did these two journalists know Rove freaked? Narrow it down: the Pilsbury Dough Biy was trying to cover his tracks! He called these two, because they knew his role in the leaking! Do you remember, Pallas180, way back on the first thread, I said that Rove would snitch? Oh. my goodness!

Back to pasge 444: part of his freaking was to accuse his partners -- as ALL RATS DO -- and "he turned on Cheney and Libby and made it clear he held them responsible for the problem they created for the administration. The protracted silence on this topic from the White House masks considerable tension between the Office of the President and the Office of the Vice President.

The rumors swirling around Rove, Libby, and Abrams were so pervasive in Washington that the White House press secretary, Scott McClellan, was obligated to address them in an October 2003 briefing, saying of Rove, "The president knows he wasn't involved ... It's simply not true." McClellan refused to be drawn into a simial direct denial of Libby's or Abram's possible involvement, however."

Bush is only a suspect in the efforts to cover-up the crime.

[Pallas180]

230. OK H20 - but who gave the order to expose her? Rove or Cheney

Sorry, I haven't read the book - you're a terrific resource on books!

I remember Rove was heard screaming on the phone _ F him over at the top of his lungs, several times.

So did he give the order?

But that means some underling called from Cheney's office, his shadow
CIA group and gave Rove the info on Plame? Or is that where Cheney
comes in? Did he himself give Libby/Abrams the info, because only a
high level official would know her identity - and Cheney had been over in CIA offices many times. ? ? ? H20 ??

Then when the hullabaloo exploded over outing her, they went to dimson and told him and said what should we do...and he said, ala
Nixon, stonewall. Cheney went to dimson let's say and talked it over
with Rove present.

Therefore, if so, he then involved himself in the cover up??

plausible??

[H2O Man]

243. Very good -- as always!

This group had talked about destroying Wilson in a systematic way since March 8. There was the meeting in cheney's office. Parts of this are not clear to anyone except those who were there. Was cheney at the meeting? Did he "excuse himself" for five minutes when the word was given by Newt?

Even within a group such as this .... in fact, any time you have more than four people, and especially anything over eight .... there are factions. So, not everyone involved in exposing Plame to hurt Wilson knew that she was involved in the sting on the WMD components. See? So you have one person in particular, who has the entire range of information/knowledge, who is a master of manipulating behind the scenes, especially in small groups. His public persona is just that: by persona, I am going beyond the fictional presentation that a republican may wear if they were to come on to DU to shadow and/or disrupt. Rather, I mean persona in the psychological sense ..... Jung's "anima" fits ....the facade or role one plays ... who is that?

We know that our least favorite Ronald McDonald is the president ... who thinks he's "Dirty Harry," "Rambo," and the Second Coming combined. A fool. A buffoon. The tragic comedy becomes president.

No, more to the point, there is one man in this administration who sits behind the controls like the wizard of oz. He knew ALL of the reasons to expose Plame. He controlled the lesser players.

[shraby]

248. I remember reading about a meeting

and that Perle and others were there. Was that in Wilson's book? What I remember was they were talking to Condi trying to convince her of something. Can anyone fill me in on this meeting?

[ozymandius]

236. A refresher in legal terms as to what this may mean for Bush:

I offer this in case someone has just walked into the discussion.

Bush is only a suspect in the efforts to cover-up the crime.

This is called misprision of a felony. This is a crime unto itself. If this charge sticks and he is found guilty, he could be confronted with an accessory charge to a treasonous offense.

[H2O Man]

247. Yes.

Like Nixon and Martha found out, trying to cover up a crime often catches up to you.

[Pallas180]

258. Thanks. A little legal description of consequence never hurts. :)

:hi:

[shraby]

241. If Bush knew, I would guess

Condi did too.

[Pallas180]

255. That's why Karen was called back to DC. The frigid temp between Rove & Che

Cheney and his group. She could be the intermediary. When she left
Rove took over. If Rove is covering his ample ass , he can't run the
administration between the two groups. Karen had to come back.

But the tipoff on who dimson is going to stand by may be McClellan's
defense of Rove.

Which would have activated either Libby or Abrams to take care of themselves.

My money is on Abrams as the squealer. He must have made a beeline
to Fitzgerald. He came within an 1/8 of an inch of going to jail last time around, he's been through the whole thing before, so he would have been the first to cut a deal. Anyway, that's what I think.

[Lestatdelc]

288. Interesting

This may certainly add some Crazy-Glu™ to the perma-bonding of the Bush/Cheney ticket dispute the poltical/electora lead balon that IS Cheney on the ticket. They are in a death embrace and either sink or swim together.

[burrowowl]

261. It has to blow up soon!

Remember the absentee ballots. They will be going out in a month and will be sent in a few days afterwards.

[H2O Man]

198. There are advantages to having indictments

now, and in having them later in the fall. I like the idea of sooner, and here's why: I think that the administration falls apart to a greater extent with the cracks starting now. The pressure will continue to build throughout the early fall. The administration will have to spend more time, money, and effort on a wider range of issues.

If cheney is dropped from the ticket by mid-September, as a result of the scandal over the Plame indictments, the republicans have a very difficuly choice: a republican with rabies, to please the extreme right; or a "progressive" republican, with a broader appeal on social issues.

Also, there are contributors who give more than money: the time and effort to run the republican machine .... with a scandal, there are a significant percentage of the bottom level. The earlier that this ugly chapter begins to wear away the foundation of the support for the administration, the better.

I appreciate that you posted your thoughts on here. I'm hoping that more people will weigh in on this issue. Part of the value of the Plame Gang on DU is to encourage other folks to participate in this discussion. Thanks!

[merh]

207. However, like the Enron investigation - it is not uncommon

to investigate and indict up the chain of command. One grand jury can investigate and indict a minor player with hopes that the minor player will give them testimony and evidence to implicate a larger fish and so on up the food chain. Also remember that the government is entitled to discovery during the pre-trial procedure and the defendant may produce documents/evidence that implicate others.

Any indictment naming a member of the admin will be harmful and will tarnish the admin, especially if the indictment deals with the national security issues discussed in these threads.

I would have no problem with indictments now of minor players, resulting in bad publicity that will harm the admin and the repugs, the loss of the pres election and additional house and senate seats and the shifting of power in congress so that when the big fish are indicted, there is no one to block the efforts or pardon.

Timing is everything, do not show your hand until you need to.

(IMHO)

[shraby]

211. One other good thing could happen

if the indictments come out soon is people who usually turn off politics until almost November will be watching the news like they did in the Nixon era. Might clue them in as to what is going on in the government.

[merh]

214. That is a good point.

I hope you are right. I fear the talking heads will just spin it as "party politics" dems made this happen to ruin * and Co. They just don't get it - they keep drinking the kool aid.

Maybe indictments will make them realize that *, like the Rev. Jim Jones, is not god and they will put the kool aid down.

We will offer them the cool water of truth but whether or not they drink it is another subject.

[ozymandius]

239. In this case, I do hope someone leans on Condoleezza Rice.

Such a delicate flower, can barely keep her story straight, stammers at the first glimmer of being made a fool. This is the weak link in the Administration. She is not so tough. I know a Senator who has his eye on her as a probable target to start 'thinning the herd'.

[merh]

292. That's the point...

Just as the military is taught that a unit is only as strong as its weakest link, the government prosecutors know that a conspiracy is only as strong as its weakest link. In the military they work to strengthen their weakest link, the gov prosecutors seek to find the weakest link and then weakens it further, until the entire conspiracy is broken. Whether it be princess con or one of the others, they are gathering the evidence to use against all links, with the hopes that the weak one will not be able to handle the stress of indictment/prosecution/trial.

Best analogy is a house of cards. Remove a poorly placed or unstable card from the lower level with the hopes that it will cause the entire house of cards to fall, including the top level. It just depends on the level of the card removed and the closeness of that card to the top.

[ozymandius]

218. Time is not on the Administration's side either way.

That is what I first glean from your statement. And I agree. So do you suppose that if the indictments were handed out right now: more cracks in the edifice would appear; this would drain the campaign machine of operating capital; and give time for someone to turn state's evidence in an effort to save their own jowly neck?

What would the voters think? Would the Bush base wither to bigots only? But I digress...

I am still flommoxed as to how this situation would be handled given the continental-drifting speed with which events flow in Washington. Is there a precedent or near-precedent that might provide a clue as to the right tools to use and levers to pull when procedural momentum is needed?

[Pallas180]

228. Flommoxed. That's an Irish word, hardly ever heard. & where did

you pick that up?

[ozymandius]

233. It must be genetic.

Ancestral memory perhaps. Although I have many friends from the old country and reading about Ireland is one of my favorite activities.

[Pallas180]

235. OZY - next you'll be calling everyone "kiddo" too. We have a

restaurant/tavern in town that was shipped over piece by piece from Ireland,The Blue Anchor, and the entire menu was shipped over too.
Charming comfy place with dark wood and stained glass windows.

[ozymandius]

237. I've been known to use that term - 'kiddo'.

The place sounds magnificent. There's a pub here called Fado Fado. It is a commercial model of the authentic place you describe. BTW - many of the wait staff at Fado are from Ireland. The accents are too good to be affected.

[Pallas180]

242. chuckling - Oh and begorra! - they'll soon send us bangers or

blood sausage.

[ozymandius]

244. Oh! Mercy! Not blood sausage!

That's one sausage I've seen being made. They use a bathtub. It was showers only for years after viewing that.

[merh]

206. Fitzgerald could seal the indictments with permission of the

court. Do you recall when Ashwipe released the information about the mall bombers being indicted in June? Well, the guy was originally arrested in November. Apparently he had been indicted and the indictment remained under seal until Ashwipe decided to unseal it. (for a distraction story)

I am not sure, but I believe USA (US attorney) can have the indictment sealed if the release of the information would threaten the ongoing investigation or national security.

[ozymandius]

213. Thanks for this.

So if Fitzgerald had a vindictive bone in his body, he could unseal the indictment at an opportune time - provided the court would abide them remaining under seal.

This dovetails somewhat with an idea that was expressed in another thread. Have Fitzgerald and crew been bullied by the Administration?

[merh]

216. No, I don't think so, I think he is trying to get the leverage to have

some of the small fish in the pond voluntarily throw themselves on the shore (cop a plea). Then he will use them for bait (who knows body wires) or he will put them on the stand and let them tell all they know to a grand jury.

[Pallas180]

219. I doubt you could walk into the WH with body wires. would have

to be a little recorder in your pocket from your office desk.

[H2O Man]

250. Fitzgerald did it

the same way any good investigator breaks an organization. Remember, evereyone from top to bottom knows to lie. But people at the bottom aren't as well-trained at it. They always mess-up on something. And then you call them in, to a very small room, and get face to face, with prolonged eye contact that makes all un-trained folks very anxious, and you say, "Sport, we have you on this lie. You are facing serious charges. We have several other witnesses, and we'll put your ass in the slammer. So here's what we're going to do. You have 24 hours to get yourself a lawyer, and you tell that lawyer everything you know, in the strictest confidence. Because after the Christmas holiday, you're going in front of the grand jury. Ask your attorney about the penalty for perjury. You can leave now. Have a nice day."

That person speaks to their attorney. He contacts DoJ and says, "Let's make a deal."

Once you turn one tile at the lowest level, you do the same thing, up and up the line.

As we know from our previous discussions, and which I documented, this happened in December of 2003.

[ramblin_dave]

260. Who was it who was turned in Dec 2003?

Did you say or hint at someone? These threads are too long to read everything.

[merh]

296. Body wire is a figure of speech. In this day and age of technology,

body wires are needed any more. There are all types of devices to record conversations, just as there are all types of devices to detect them. I would assume the CIA has some pretty interesting devices that would or could be made available.

[loudsue]

182. The Plame Investigation can, indeed, locate all the buried bodies

connected to the bush mafia. I really wonder if there isn't some way that these threads couldn't be sent to all the members of the Grand Jury....even if they think they HAVE completed their investigations.

Loudsue has been gone for 10 days....:party: GOT MARRIED!!!:party: and came home to the 8th thread on the Plame investigation!!!

:bounce: Way to go, you guys!!! :bounce: I'm soooo glad you've kept up the awesome work that was begun before I left!

I think I left w/ thread #2 or #3, but this continuity and depth I never would have expected. Never before on DU have we kept threads going this long, nor have any remained this intensely on topic, and this focused.

I still have 2 more of the back threads to read, since I just got home at 5:00 this a.m. I'm looking forward to it.

There is definitely enough material here for a barn-burner book, and I hope someone here (who has the talent and experience to write a BOOK!...which leaves me out) will do a book based on this research. It needs to happen, and it needs to be soon.

Gawd I love you guys!!!

Kicking it back up!

:kick::kick::kick::kick::kick:

[Pallas180]

183. HI LOUD SUE, Sadie, Sadie, Married Lady- wher'd you go on

your honeymoon?

Hope you had a great time. Yes, we've been slaving away...and now that you're back, we need to put you to work too.

Go to the top and send out some letters to congresscritters and media

Novak continues to shill for the WH and is all over CNN - so let's see if we can put him where he belongs.

[coeur_de_lion]

187. Congratulations, Loudsue!

[kohodog]

193. Congrats Loudsue, and welcome back! Abu Gharib...

will also help locate bodies. Seymore Hersch spoke to the ACLU today...I only heard a few snips...anyone have a link? Anyway, apparently he said he has sen the tap
So with all the investigations, all the corruption and all the lies, it's hard to see how they can keep it from coming forward. In the last few days they've tried to discredit Joe Wilson, and today Hersch brings the Abu Garib tortures back into the picture. This can be a two pronged attack and we need to keep these and other issues on the front burner until they come undone.

Seymore Hersch gets nmy vote to write the book. Anyone know him?

[Pallas180]

199. KOHO i would bet there's one person here who may know him.

:hi:

[H2O Man]

205. Seymore Hersch has been

doing fantastic, extremely valuable work on Abu Garib. And it is connected in many ways to the Plame case. However, there are a few areas that might make it hard to combine the two issues in one book.

Abu Garib, for example, involves many of the "private" military .... and the rules on publicizing their actions are very different that reporting on CI operatives.

Even Wilson had to hold back in his book. The law does not allow you to write freely about a long dead operative, much less a retired one, (even if they are brought back for a single assignment), and certainly not an active person like Plame.

Hence, a book on both cases would be trying to expose one side of the equation, while keeping the other side secret. Yesterday, I mentioned "Anonymous," the senior US Intel Officer in CI who wrote, "Imperial Hubris" .... Michael Scheure is not interested in keeping his identity "secret" any more, (it's public knowledge now), but he still must comply with "the rules."

I hope Valerie writes the next book.

[coeur_de_lion]

209. H2O, you've mentioned a time or two that you would like to

compile these threads into some kind of book. Are you still interested in that, and if so what form would it take? Would you tell a story and use the posts to illustrate it? Would you make a character out of all the different Plame posters? Pallas can be the den mother, you can be Deep Throat, etc.

[Pallas180]

212. ARBY - I'd rather be the sultry intern who stumbles onto the whole plot &

meets the handsome agent who's assigned to protect her - he arrests
the WH baddies, and she gets to live. :)

Oops I guess we're talking about Sibel Edmonds.

[coeur_de_lion]

217. fishnet stockings, check. 3-inch heels, check. red lipstick, check

OKAY. I'm going to be the sweet, disarmingly innocent ingenue. Peter Pan collar and Mary Janes. Splash of freckles across my nose. We'll have to pick out H2O's outfits -- he can be the serious professor type or maybe a slick guy in a pinstripe suit with a fedora.

Sorry. Getting carried away. The question was a serious on though, H2O.

[Pallas180]

227. ROFL laughing- lose the fishnet stockings. Yes H20 Prof. - you

got yourself exactly right. And everyone trying to keep you from finding out too much, for your own safety.

Hell, we could write the book: :)

[coeur_de_lion]

256. oy, you guys will insist on changing the costumes, then okay

lose the fishnets. But I'm going to insist on sheer black stockings with a seam down the middle. And the lipstick stays.

Sigh. Actors.

[H2O Man]

252. Hmmmm......

Okay, Denzel when I'm the slick cat in the pinstripe w/fedora ..... and Donald Sutherland when I'm disguised as the serious professor type. I'm hoping that Pallas!80 doesn't suggest Jerry Lewis when I'm the nutty professor.

[Pallas180]

257. Hey Kiddo. You better NOT be the nutty professor . My thought BTW

about Cheney is: Remember how dimson kept saying O'Neill was
wonderful and he's staying.

Do you see O'Neill there?

Well, dimson is now saying Cheney is wonderful and he's staying.

But there's a problem.

Do you remember the 8 minutes that dimson sat there after hearing it
was an attack on America? He had no idea that he was supposed to do
anything. He never watched the West Wing to find out how to be president. He was waiting for someone to tell him what to do.

Dimson can't be left alone in da big round office without having someone tell him what to do and what to say and behind the scenes
doing the real business of the government. Wartime _____ my ass.

That means either Newt, the trusted insider becomes Veep, or another
real insider becomes Veep. Baker? It's highly possible.

Giuliani is good for window dressing and the ticket, but he's not a neo-con insider. I don't think.

Who else is a contender whose a real neo con insider? Oops. Rumsfeld.
but wouldn't he be unacceptable.

Looks like Newt.

[H2O Man]

226. I couldn't be Deep Throat.

You realize that there are four people made into that composite. Woodward made the character ... he, of course, did some contact work for the agency .... every major paper (and every college) has someone who is contracted. Carl wasn't; he met with one of the four, Al Haig. When John Dean said the other night that he made a list of all the people in all the places, and narrowed it down .... he was hinting at what he knows.

Anyhow, back to the idea of a book .... I'd help if the people in charge of DU wanted. They know how to contact me on the park bench. (grin) Anything like that should be done to benefit the DU as a system.

I would like Denzel Washington to play me in the motion picture, however!

[Pallas180]

232. OK. I could go for Denzel. Rove - must be having palpitations because his

mentor "dirty tricks"Segretti, whom he idolized and whom taught him all he knows, went to jail for going over the line - forgery.

[coeur_de_lion]

253. Hmmmm. I was thinking more like Peter O' Toole for you. You're

messing up my imagery. You are probably way too young for Peter anyway. Denzel? That could work, but I don't see him in a fedora.;) We'll have to re-do the costume. Maybe a subdued plaid shirt with a nice sweater vest (cashmere, of course).

For me? If Meryl isn't available I'll settle for Jessica Lange. Julia Roberts has been done to death. I'm picturing Angelina Jolie for you, Pallas.

Whether you would do the book was only half of the question. The other half of the question was if this were turned into a book, what form would it take? Hypothetically speaking, of course. You are the author, right?

I thought you might have considered how you would outline it.

[Pallas180]

264. I should only look like Angelina Jolie.! n/t

.

[H2O Man]

276. Just the facts, M'am.....

I would think the book should simply be an edited, slightly more organized version of what is on here. Some editorial comment, held to a minimum. A small bio of those participants who are so inclined ... if only to give a small idea of what type of person participates in DU.

Denzel wore a fedora briefly in The Hurricane. Hmmm ... he also played Steven Biko in Cry Freedom, and Malcolm X in Malcolm X .....

[coeur_de_lion]

347. okay you can keep the fedora.

There is so much stuff on here. I'm trying to picture how it would go into a book and I can't. I'll trust your experienced eye.

I went to bed early last night, I need to read up and find out what y'all had to say while I was sleeping. And I want to read Wilson's 6-page rebuttal so I have a better understanding where he is coming from. I read bits of that POS Novak's articles and it made me sick. Quit reading. But that is what the public sees. I don't think many people would see Wilson's article, and they will believe the other stuff they read. Vewy cwever these Amewicans. Very good at spin.

[Wilber_Stool]

224. Here's the link.

It's edited so it only has Hirsch's speach.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6492.htm

[kohodog]

270. Another link for a video version

http://www.aclu.org/2004memberconf/

The july 7 conference video has it.

[loudsue]

234. Thanks to all for the congrats.....and I will e-mail the whole country,

and a few OTHER countries, with the information we've seen posted on these threads. It is the least each of us can do right now.... let the bush mafia be held accountable and let them be EXPOSED for who they truly are.

What did I miss while I was gone? Did Josh Marshall ever come forward with what he felt was going to "rock Washington"? I know he's going to wait for the right time, and make sure all his ducks are in a row before he makes a move. I'm just curious if anyone has heard anything else since July 6th (since I left town .... and my computer).

:kick::kick::kick::kick:

[H2O Man]

251. Hello, loudsue!

I would like to say "happy best wishes," and we're all glad to have you back!

[AgadorSparticus]

309. how exciting! CONGRATULATIONS, Loudsue!!! nt

:bounce:

[coeur_de_lion]

189. arbustochupa's letter is actually H2O's letter n/t

[HootieMcBoob]

259. Joseph Wilson's response

Please forgive me if this has already been posted by I looked around and didn't see anything on it.

Joe Wilson Once Again Under Character Assassination Attack by the GOP Junk Yard Dogs: His Response:

http://www.buzzflash.com/alerts/04/07/ale04018.html

[HootieMcBoob]

268. Seriously dudes! Has anybody read this letter yet?

It's Joseph Wilson's letter to Pat Roberts and Jay Rockefeller concerning the Senate report.

[TacticalPeek]

272. You are forgiven, HootieMcB. Feel at home with the rest of us sinners!

A lot to see in this candy shop, indeed. The earlier refs were to the Salon article, which has a link to the letter. In posts #142 and #167.

The Sid Blumenthal article at #150 is excellent also.



And, I just noticed some fresh Corn at The Nation:


Capital Games
by David Corn

Bashing Joe Wilson
07/16/2004 @ 11:58am

The Senate intelligence committee's report on prewar intelligence demonstrates that George W. Bush launched a war predicated on false assertions about weapons of mass destruction and misled the country when he claimed Saddam Hussein was in cahoots in al Qaeda. But what has caused outrage within conservative quarters? Passages in the report that they claim undermine the credibility of former Ambassador Joseph Wilson.

snip

The first shot at Wilson actually came from The Washington Post. The day after the Senate report was released, Post reporter Susan Schmidt did an entire piece on the portion of the report related to the Niger episode. (By the way, the Post devoted more space to the Wilson affair than to the report's conclusion that there was no intelligence to back up Bush's assertion that Iraq and al Qaeda had maintained a working relationship.)

more
http://www.thenation.com/capitalgames/index.mhtml?bid=3&pid=1558


"more space" to Wilson than al Queda - but we already knew about Steno Sue. :evilgrin:

[HootieMcBoob]

274. Thanks

Yeah, it gets a little overwhelming sometimes.

I haven't been posting but I'm checking the threads a few times a day to see what's developed. I'm hoping that we see Wilson all over the news next week. From the thoroughness of his letter I would imagine he wants to make his case since they've been so busy with their typical character assassination, distortion and water muddying over the last week or so.

Also, just so you know I plan on drafting a letter using some of the excellent letters you folks have written yourselves as jumping off points. Should be off in Monday's snail mail.

[Pallas180]

326. That's great HOOTIE - sending letters I mean, looks like we'll

be authoring some more. Anyone want to give a shot at a letter expressing outrage at the Senate Intel Report Conclusion ?


:hi:

[kohodog]

273. Hi Hootie

Thanks for the link. I haven't had time to check Buzzflash today.

So who do we believe? Joe or the appologists who are blowing smoke?

Did anyone hear McClellan's news breifing yesterday? Some "journalist" asked something to the effect: "Now that the Butler report has absolutely proved that Joe Wilson lied about the yellowcake do you think he should appologize to the President?" Then there was aplause!!! Since when do "journalists" applaud a partisan question?

No wonder we're here sorting out the facts.

[Lestatdelc]

281. I caught that breifing on C-Span last night

Fucking disgusting.

Not only was that reporter outright LYING about the contents of the Senate Intel and British Intel reports, but was trying to toss McClellan a fat-red-meat softball.

Fucking shameless.

I really wish I knew my press pool people by sight. I only know who Helen Thomas is in the press room reporters.

Any idea what publication that shaved head freak works for...?

[kohodog]

290. Did you hear the applause?

And it sounded like Helen tried to speak out but Scottie boy shut her dowm. He was so smug after that meatball....

But I'll say it again, when have you heard the press corp (and doesn't that take on a new meaning these days) ever applaud a bullshit lying question like that?

[Lestatdelc]

301. I think the applause was for his sick vanity line

Where he tossed in that it was his one year anniversary of becoming press secretary, not the "I will let the reports speak for themselves" crappola.

[Occulus]

310. I wonder

Do we ever get to see the whole press room while it's active? The cameras can see in only one direction- where they're pointed.

Is their job, or access, so important that they lap up even the worst of what we call 'partisan' softballs... or is it something else entirely, maybe something more sinister at work?

This is starting to become absurd. Applause for asking a partisan question?

Beg pardon?

[kohodog]

311. maybe I got the applause wrong

I was listening on the radio so it might have been for his 1 yr anniversary, but I think it had to do with the softball indictment of Wilson. Our press corp., just doing their job? Fucking corporate whores if you ask me (excepting Helen Thomas and probably a few others).

[TacticalPeek]

294. Applause for that? Proof that Les Kinsolving had his parents at the gaggle

I've hated that asshole since the first bushco press conference, when the mics picked up his lame dig about Clinton trashing the WH.

One could write a book about what this misadmin has done to the WH press corps. It's almost as disgraceful as what the reporters have done to themselves.

How the hell does he get credentials? When Rolling Stone had scribes there, at least they had some actual circulation. Think of him as a sop to the knuckle-draggers, a key coalition element for KKKarl.

[Lestatdelc]

275. Iran and Iraq not Libya (per se)

While Libya was certainly a sanctioned country, and we know for a fact that Halliburton sold them duel-use technology (Neutron generators) which could be used as nuclear detonators, I don't think Libya had AS much to do with the Plame leaking as much as the more troubling (and recent) activities of Halliburton under the Cheney helm in regards to Iran and Iraq.

Cheney even went so far as to defend Haliburton's practice while he was CEO of using off-shore subsidiaries to circumvent sanctions.

See Rep. Henry Waxmans, letter to Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense, April 30, 2003 (PDF)

I think Halliburton certainly could have been dealing in some Libyan style materials with either one prior to 9/11, and thus those tentacles had to be severed, in a scorched earth manner. I think more and more that Plame was outed for her CPD operations than as "revenge" against Wilson.

I think Wilson lobbing "grenades" at the administration in public spooked the shit out of Cheney, because both he and Lewis Libby knew who his wife was, what her function was and what direction her work was digging.

I think Wilson going public about the Niger claims was a catalyst, and Cheney knew the danger his wife posed, hence their being prepped and willing to "pull-the-trigger" on Plame.

It was a classic BushCo. style twofer which this administration has ALWAYS tried to angle towards, but I am more and more convinced that this is backwards. Wilson was not the target of "revenge" Plame was cut off at the knees because Wilson suddenly made it conceivable that Plame had some goods on Cheney/Halliburton the cartel, etc. and was, like her husband, a loose canon (from their view) and had some real ordinance with which to fire with.

[H2O Man]

280. I agree

with what you wrote here. The era of Libya's prime came and went. The real show is in Iran, Pakistan, and North Korea. And some other parts of the Asian world could be the fuse that sets off the powder keg.

[Lestatdelc]

286. What I am trying to figure out is...

...the source of the forgeries.

Was this a Cheney/Cartel trap to set-up Plame/Wilson or simply shitty craft-work to bolster BS claims about Iraq (which is the simple read) for public consumption.

I suspect the later.

But when Wilson started tossing grenades, Cheney et al fucking shit themselves and slammed back hard, with an orchestration to leak it all via Rove to shut down Wilson's wife.

The Niger documents, in fact the entire construct that Iraq was seeking yellow-cake is absurd. They had over 500 tons of the stuff in country since 1998. Iraq had no NEED for yellow-cake through balk-market channels from 1998 onward, when the IAEA inspectors that had been monitoring the stock-pile got pulled in advance of Operation Desert Fox.

So we KNOW that the entire yellow-cake snipe hunt was bogus form the outset.

Even the CIA didn't pursue it past Cheney's offices request to run down the bogus claims that were sparked by the Niger forgeries, which prompted Wilson's trip. This is confirm in the Senate IIC report. The CIA was busy trying to make hay with the aluminum tubes (which ended up being pure bunk, but that only required selective and willful ignoring the atomic agency experts, not bogus documents) and didn't put any resources into the yellow-cake (except for the Wilson trip by Cheney's request) because it made ERO sense that Iraq would be seeking more yellow-cake at the time.

The INR knew that the yellow-cake was dubious at best.

So the questions I still have some toe-hold questions about is, was the forged Niger documents just trashy PR spin, or a specific "trap"...?

I think the former, but still just trying to fit that piece into the puzzle.

Also wish I could get more solid info on how Klien arrived at the possibility that Plame was doing sting operations. The weasel word "ay" in his article bothers me.

[TheCentepedeShoes]

348. Jumping in a little late here

but I thought of a way it could also be the former. Valerie is on the trail of something very serious which could implicate the White House. Her operation must be shut down. Joe is sent to Niger to check out a claim of Iraq's attempt to buy yellowcake. He debunks the story. Then these crudely forged documents appear (if I have the timeline correct) and the White House starts this back and forth include/not include in Bush*s speeches. "They" hope that some of the story will stick with the 'Murican people, but the real reason for making the yellowcake claims is to get at Wilson. Wilson, who feels his integrity is at stake, is "provoked" into speaking out on the subject. Joe does not know the true nature of Valerie's work, so cannot see that it is a trap. (I haven't read the book yet, so correct me if he addresses the issue of his knowledge). The WH has Novak on deck to attack Wilson and "out" Valerie. The other journalists were given the info as an extra measure and as cover for Novak. If any of them use it fine, if not - OK, "they" know that Novak will. Please feel free to correct any of my faulty assumptions.

[RebelYell]

278. Does anyone have Joe Wilson's book?

I would like to write to his publisher - maybe they would forward my letter on to him. I want to tell him I'm behind him 100% and our future is in his hands. Is there any other way to contact him?

[H2O Man]

282. His book was published by

Carol & Graf Publishers
An Imprint of Avalon Publishing Group, Inc
245 West 17th Street -- 11th Floor
New York, NY 10011

[RebelYell]

285. What would we do without you, H2O?

:*

You're a doll - thanks.

[H2O Man]

287. You are welcome!

I think Joseph would be pleased to hear from people that participate in this effort. It's a strange thing .... to be attacked viciously in the media .... if you can imagine if you have not only NOT done anything wrong, but you went way out of your way to do the right thing .... and then a pack of jackals attacks you, publicly, lying through their fangs .... and the media says that to be fair, they each get as much say as you. So if 35 people attack Wilson in a given week, the media score way favors them.

That gets to be lonely. The administration thought Wilson would break. Like John Dean says, wrong guy to pick this fight with. But as strong as he is, and Valerie is, the truth is he'd likely appreciate the show of support.

You have a great idea.

[RebelYell]

295. I think he would appreciate

knowing they're not alone in this and we support his statements.

I'll do my best to write some thoughts down this weekend.

BTW, if there is a movie? I nominate Michael Douglas for Joe Wilson and Cybil Shepard as Valerie.

[Me.]

293. Tony Blair's defense is starting to crack...

It came out today that last July MI6 withdrew the intelligence which was used to support the war in Iraq. So maybe we'll get the truth about the yellowcake intelligence claim soon.

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/story.jsp?story=541880

[kohodog]

299. "There is a crack in everything...

that lets the light shine in" Leonard Cohen

Lies will only last for so long if enquiring minds keep asking the right questions.


edit: my typing sucks.

[Me.]

300. And Over at DU (the regular one)...

It is reported that the ex-premier of Niger is saying that Iraq did not try to buy uranium.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3891503.stm

[TacticalPeek]

307. If Iraq wanted to talk to Niger,

it would make more sense that they would try to get Niger to take back the yellowcake they already had. Iraq had no nuclear weapons program after the yellowcake was sealed up and monitored by UN inspectors. Western surveillance precluded cranking up a program of the size necessary to refine the yellowcake. It was an expensive white elephant. They couldn't sell it on the WMD market without risking detection by Plame and similar professionals. So, try for a partial refund from Niger. Or let Niger broker it on consignment in the normal market. Since it was already extracted, they could have worked out a deal good for both parties.

After over a year of looking at great length, it is clear that Saddam did pretty much what he was told to do about WMD. He gave it up. So he got invaded and toppled. His lawyers have a chance for some interesting court theater.

[huckleberry]

291. Joe Wilson's LTTE in 7/17 WP

Yay! Joe Wilson fights back!

Debunking Distortions About My Trip to Niger
Saturday, July 17, 2004; Page A17

For the second time in a year, your paper has published an article falsely suggesting that my wife, Valerie Plame, was responsible for the trip I took to Niger on behalf of the U.S. government to look into allegations that Iraq had sought to purchase several hundred tons of yellowcake uranium from that West African country. Last July 14, Robert Novak, claiming two senior sources, exposed Valerie as an "agency operative suggested sending him to Niger." Novak went ahead with his column despite the fact that the CIA had urged him not to disclose her identity. That leak to Novak may well have been a federal crime and is under investigation.

In the year since the betrayal of Valerie's covert status, it has been widely understood that she is irrelevant to the unpaid mission I undertook or the conclusions I reached. But your paper's recent article acted as a funnel for this scurrilous and extraneous charge, uncritically citing the Republican-written Senate Select Committee on Intelligence report.

more at
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A56501-2004Jul16.html

[Tellurian]

302. little bit more...

"The decision to send me to Niger was not made, and could not be made, by Valerie.

At the conclusion of a meeting that she did not attend, I was asked by CIA officials whether I would be willing to travel to Niger. While a CIA reports officer and a State Department analyst, both cited in the report, speculate about what happened, neither of them was in the chain of command that made the decision to send me. Reams of documents were given over to the Senate committee, but the only quotation attributed to my wife on this subject was the anodyne "my husband has good relations with both the PM (Prime Minister) and the former Minister of Mines (not to mention lots of French contacts), both of whom could possibly shed light on this sort of activity."

In fact, with 2-year-old twins at home, Valerie did not relish my absence for a two-week period. But she acquiesced because, in the zeal to be responsive to the legitimate concerns raised by the vice president, officials of her agency turned to a known functionary who had previously checked out uranium-related questions for them."

well written succinct response, Joe.

[TacticalPeek]

303. Thanks, Huckleberry. Washington Post = Washington Funnel

"But that is not the only inaccurate assertion or conclusion in the Senate report uncritically parroted in the article. Other inaccuracies and distortions include the suggestion that my findings "bolstered" the case that Niger was engaged in illegal sales of uranium to Iraq. In fact, the Senate report is clear that the intelligence community attempted to keep the claim out of presidential documents because of the weakness of the evidence."

(Love your name, by the way; it's my favorite pie.)

[Tellurian]

305. and one would ask...

"In fact, the Senate report is clear that the intelligence community attempted to keep the claim out of presidential documents because of the weakness of the evidence."

who gave the order to insert it knowing full well, the claim was bogus?

I like huckleberries too..

But I'm really an apple pie girl.

[shraby]

308. It's time for another thread.

[TacticalPeek]

304. Joe Wilson scheduled to be on CNN Late Edition with Lamb Leslie Sunday..

FOX NEWS SUNDAY (WTTG), 9 a.m.: Acting CIA Director John E. McLaughlin.

MEET THE PRESS (NBC, WRC), 10:30 a.m.: Sen. Robert C. Byrd (D-W.Va.), Rep. Christopher Cox (R-Calif.) and author Stephen Flynn.

FACE THE NATION (CBS, WUSA), 10:30 a.m.: Republican National Committee Chairman Ed Gillespie and Democratic National Committee Chairman Terence R. McAuliffe.

LATE EDITION (CNN), noon: King Abdullah of Jordan; Sens. Saxby Chambliss (R-Ga.) and Richard J. Durbin (D-Ill.); New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson (D); Bush-Cheney campaign Chairman Marc Racicot; former ambassador to Iraq Joseph C. Wilson IV; and Carmen bin Laden, sister-in-law of Osama bin Laden.


Now I know what I'll be watching Sunday afternoon!

GIMME EAT! :evilgrin:

[Tellurian]

306. On with Marc Racicot?

better bring a palpable nerf ball to keep in his pocket..

[Lestatdelc]

314. The wheels are coming off... (a consolidated post)

How do I know this... because http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/story.jsp?story=541880 "> Downing Street forced into the open on discredited spies.

This is the great undoing of the last shred of substance to the false claims about WMD intel claims by Bush and company, specifically to the false and patently absurd claims about African uranium purchases, which was actually led to the first, and fatal catalyst that will, with any justice be the greatest scandal in our nations history which were sparked by the Niger claims.

The Niger documents, in fact the entire construct that Iraq was seeking yellow-cake is absurd. Iraq had over 500 tons of the stuff in country since 1998. Iraq had no need for yellow-cake through balk-market channels from 1998 onward, when the IAEA inspectors that had been monitoring the stock-pile got pulled in advance of Operation Desert Fox.

So we know that the entire yellow-cake snipe hunt was bogus form the outset.

Even the CIA didn't pursue it past Cheney's offices request to run down the bogus claims that were sparked by the Niger forgeries, which prompted Wilson's trip. This is confirm in the Senate IIC report. The CIA was busy trying to make hay with the aluminum tubes (which ended up being pure bunk, but that only required selective and willful ignoring the atomic agency experts, not bogus documents) and didn't put any resources into the yellow-cake (except for the Wilson trip by Cheney's request) because it made zero sense that Iraq would be seeking more yellow-cake at the time.

The INR knew that the yellow-cake was dubious at best.

So why was Plame outed and Wilson smeared...?

Most assume Plame was outed to discredit Wilson, while that is an added benefit to why it occurred, that was entirely the wrong question.

The correct question is was Plame outed because of her work in counter-proliferation and now Wilson is suddenly lobbed "grenades" at the administration?

Remember what we know Plame was, a covert operative handling NOCs (no offical cover operatives, i.e. undercover operatives) for the CIA counter-proliferation Department (CPD). Joe Klien in his June 26, 2004 article hinted that Plame "may have been active in a sting operation involving the trafficking of WMD components".

Now... scroll back to the mid to late 80s... Libya was a sanctioned country for its know sponsorship of terrorist groups, and we know for a fact that Halliburton sold them duel-use technology (Neutron generators) which could be used as nuclear detonators. This is not even a matter of speculation, because in 1995, Halliburton finally plead guilty and paid over $2 million in fines. Now I don't think Libya had as much to do with the Plame leaking as much as the more troubling (and recent) activities of Halliburton under the Cheney helm in regards to Iran and Iraq. Though Libya's sudden shift to become our newest friends and held aloft as a shining example of the Bush administrations "success" in the GWOT is mightily bizarre given the administrations ties with the country (not to mention the "diplomacy" was said to be mainly spear-headed by the British).

This is worth remembering because of the underground markets that Halliburton et al were dealing in, to Syria, Iran, Libya and significantly Iraq... this is why we didn't pull the trigger on in 1991. I gave a broader overview of the history of it all in an earlier plame outing thread.

Because when we were tearing up the RG on the http://archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-71-593-3127/conflict_war/gulf_war/clip15 "> "highway of death" we had to turn south not north in the Euphrates river valley because at that time BushCo. (Sr.) didn't honestly know what WMD we faced, not to mention the pandemonium the coalition (especially those in the region) would create. We sold him the WMD components, and the intel to use them because at the time they were sold, Iraq was using them on Iran in their 8 year war.

This is also why BushCo. had to scare the shit out of their partners in Saudi Arabia, whose internal security had long been supplied by Carlyle trained and equipped personal via their BDM and Vinnell subsidiaries (since sold off to TRW) with fake intel about Saddam's intentions to move on Saudi Arabia as Desert Shield was being set-up.

This was why the WMD measures in the cease-fire and the no-fly zones for fixed wing aircraft was a must. BushCo. had to de-fang the Ba'athist regime of WMDs before we could really move on them.

This is why they went positively ape-shit when Bush Sr, tanked in the polls, Perot split the vote and Clinton got in. This is why the Arkansas Project and a non-stop hunting for anything to take Clinton down with.

But the salient point here is that Haliburton, via its off-shore end-run subsidiaries has been getting around sanctions and dealing with Iraq and Iran for some time now. Cheney even went so far as to defend Haliburton's practice while he was CEO of using off-shore subsidiaries to circumvent sanctions in 2000.

See Rep. Henry Waxmans, letter to Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense, April 30, 2003 (PDF)

Halliburton certainly could have been dealing in some Libyan style materials with either or both Iran and Iraq prior to 9/11, and thus those tentacles had to be severed, in a scorched earth manner after it happened. I convinced that Plame was outed for her CPD operations, rather than as "revenge" against Wilson.

Wilson suddenly lobbing "grenades" at the administration in public over the hyperbolic and totally cooked claims about African uranium scared the crap out of Cheney, because both he and Lewis "Scooter" Libby knew who his wife was, what her function was, and what direction her work was digging. WMD prolferation, and we also know the IAEA is investigating, and has http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/ap20040709_572.html "> already stated that it is looking into 20 companies, some US based (and lets not forget the subsidiary and front companies in Europe that are tied to Halliburton) over illicit deals.

Wilson going public about the Niger claims was a catalyst, and Cheney knew the danger his wife posed, hence their being prepped and willing to "pull-the-trigger" on Plame.

It was a classic BushCo. style twofer which this administration, via Rove, has always tried to angle towards. But in this case, the ephaisis and how it is being played out in the media and public mind is backwards. Wilson was not the target of "revenge", rather Plame was cut off at the knees because Wilson suddenly made it conceivable that Plame had some goods on Cheney/Halliburton.. i.e. the cartel, etc. and was, like her husband, a loose canon (from their view) and had some real ordinance with which to fire with.

This also certainly adds some Crazy-Glu™ to the perma-bonding of the Bush/Cheney ticket despite the political/electoral lead balloon that is Cheney on the ticket. They are in a death embrace and either sink or swim together as the CIA is about to destroy them for what Cheney and crew have done to them, to the nations security... and thus by extension us the public.

[Tellurian]

317. hmmm...

I don't think I can agree with you Les on this one:

"So why was Plame outed and Wilson smeared...?"

"Most assume Plame was outed to discredit Wilson, while that is an added benefit to why it occurred, that was entirely the wrong question."

"The correct question is was Plame outed because of her work in counter-proliferation and now Wilson is suddenly lobbed "grenades" at the administration?"

The plot was drawn up long before Wilson even went to Niger... the plot was in play supposedly when Cheney became aware of the Brits Intel (which has been conveniently made unavailable) and that was the excuse of needing first hand info to confirm or deny UK intel..then coincidentally (on purpose) having a CIA official mention the need for an other opinion verifying or denying the claims of yellow cake sales to Iraq.

[Lestatdelc]

318. Disagree

The Brit intel on the uranium all stems form the same bunk.

This was the same source (through various echo chambers) for why Cheney wanted the CIA to look into the Niger claims. The CIA thought it was dubious, made nonsense. the INR thought it was bunk, but the CIA sent Wilson to cover the bases.

When Cheney and crew insist on parroting the bogus claims, and Bush delivers it in the SOTU, Wilson goes public... this scared the shit out of Cheney and crew because they knew who Wilson's wife was and what she was looking into (and what they, Cheney and crew) were exposed to... and her is Wilson tossing grenades at them in public.

No offense but I think you are thinking this was all orchestrated (i.e. setting a trap for Wilson/Plame), I don't believe it was.

It was an opening to take them both down when they felt threatened, because Wilson went public and they knew who and what his wife was.

[Tellurian]

321. Not So...

<<The Brit intel on the uranium all stems form the same bunk.>>

To date, we don't know what the UK Intel is because they haven't made it public..

<<When Cheney and crew insist on parroting the bogus claims, and Bush delivers it in the SOTU, Wilson goes public... this scared the shit out of Cheney and crew because they knew who Wilson's wife was and what she was looking into (and what they, Cheney and crew) were exposed to... and her is Wilson tossing grenades at them in public.>>

First of all, the last thing Bush&Cheney ever expected is Wilson would contradict Bush by refuting the 16 words uttered in the SOTU publicly; and secondly, never in a million years could they have ever envisioned he'd write a book detailing the events getting it published as quickly as he did..

Now, you've got a one, two, punch coming out of nowhere, sucking all the oxygen out of the room and pointing the proverbial finger of guilt directly at Bush accusing him of LYING to the World for the rush to War with Iraq..I cannot believe ever in a million years they were prepared to have their asses royally outed like this.

So, if we look at things from Bush's perspective, Wilson's claims were never to be heard of publicly. And, from day one Bush has been harping on bad intelligence from the CIA...They needed a victim to point to as a scapegoat for the CIA...and an exit strategy for Bush's call to war, absolving him completely of responsibilty and poor judgment..

Wilson was the set up as the victim...Plame's outing was the byproduct of another case scenario..

[shraby]

324. Either way, the best part is

their coverup is blown..big time and there is no way they can cover their asses much longer. It's a matter of fill in the blanks..not multiple choice anymore.

[Lestatdelc]

325. Too much of a bank-shot

"To date, we don't know what the UK Intel is because they haven't made it public."

We have clues about the White Paper, and they point to "foreign intelligence" sources which we see from the US sources are all circular echo chamber nonsense.

Much like the Fright-Wing™ does in setting up circular references of "experts" they create to "bless" their claims.. be it gays being a threat to children to bogus trickle-down economic theory and numbers.

Wilson/Plame were not a trap being set though.

Neither were they being set up.

Either direction CIA setting up Bush, or vice-versa using Wilson/Plame is a stretch. Because neither direction knew that the other would do what they did.

The CIA kept warning them of of Africa,... Wilson never knew the the SOTU was going to use the bogus Africa claim. The WH never knew Wilson was going to go public, Wilson never knew they would out Plame.

There is FAR too much english on the bank shot scheming you are positing.

Occum's-razor.

[Tellurian]

327. Occam's Razor..

As far as your response to my post:

you've manufactured the best double speak on the thread..

All I've said is TRUE and easily verifiable..

and speaks to the very essence of the Occam's Razor principle.

This is a huge mistake in your logic:

<<Because neither direction knew that the other would do what they did.>>

Bush, Cheney and Rove knew all along what they were doing..Cheney set the dogs out deliberately within earshot of Plame..

You're reading too many tea leaves and making far reaching assumptions based completely on speculating what Plames future actions would be concerning Cheney..

Sorry...you've done nothing to convince me your theory carrys the weight and importance you've placed on it..

[Lestatdelc]

331. Huh...?

You were asserting that Wilson was being set up as a victim (hence their laying a "trap" with the bogus Niger trip) and Plame's outing was a byproduct of him going public (which we both agree they never saw coming).

So not sure I see how that is proof he was being set up as the victim.

[Tellurian]

334. easy...

when the CIA lost interest in pursing the Niger claims...Cheney pushed it..

reread my post..

[Lestatdelc]

337. Again.. huh?

How is that "setting up Wilson as a victim"...?

[Tellurian]

338. keep reading...

and thinking outside the box..

k

:hi:

[Lestatdelc]

340. Well that was useless

care to elucidate...?

[Tellurian]

341. If Cheney felt Plame was as much of a threat as you think...

on her next covert trip...she could have easily been eliminated...accidentaly!

[Lestatdelc]

342. Not likely

The operations she led FOR the CIA would have been the threat to Cheney, not the CIA.

Besides, eliminating her is not the threat that might have spooked Cheney and crew... eliminating her operations in the CIA is what would be needed if they suddenly felt threatened. Not her being "rubbed out" or something.

Also unaware that the OTVP has an overseas hit squad capacity to take out CIA covert operatives in the field.

;-)

[Tellurian]

343. you've just impeached yourself... you can't have it both ways..

you've maintained all along what a serious threat Plame was to Cheney..re: post #314

"Wilson going public about the Niger claims was a catalyst, and Cheney knew the danger his wife posed, hence their being prepped and willing to "pull-the-trigger" on Plame."

[Lestatdelc]

344. Oh please...

...this is getting beyond pedantic.

I was saying that Plame was a threat because of the operations she was involved in that Cheney and crew knew about. And that Wilson was a catalyst for and scared the shit out of the Cheney crew because they knew they were linked.

They would be spooked and panicked because they get blind-sided by Wilson, who they know is connected to Plame, and they know what she is involved in.

So they fight back in a scorched earth move and out the threat (the CPD operations heaidng their way).

[Tellurian]

346. The only threat they continue to out is Wilson..

as they have from the get go..

When I go back and read #314 there are too many assumptions and too little proof, just more spin.

You don't seem to get it- Bush needs a plausible out from Iraq, for his election. And the fact remains, If Wilson had remained mum about the whole thing, all Bush would have had to do is produce a "memo" from Wilson's report, as he did w/Plame, stating he is unconvinced WMD do not exist in Iraq...and further, Cheney asked for them to get all they could on Wilson months before he outed Plame..

As I said before, your assumptions only assume but do not point to Plame being a target at all...Bush needs a fall guy..he still does. If he had someone or something to point to as a legitimate excuse for his rush to War...he'd be home free, rather than enduring daily attacks about the embarrassment of no WMD in Iraq.

Plame still walks, which is a good thing. If she were ever the threat you've painted her to be she'd be out of the picture by now...

[Pallas180]

330. Nope.Cheney was onto Plame from haunting the CIA he knew what work shedid

:hi:

[Lestatdelc]

333. I know

That is entirely my point.

They knew form being camped out in Langley who Plame was, and her connection to Wilson.

When Wilson blind-sides them by publicly lobbing grenades at Cheney and crew over the bogus uranium claims in the SOTU speech.

They panic precisely BECAUSE they know what Plame does and who she is married too.

[Tellurian]

335. got a link..

after all thats an important statement..

I must have missed where it said Plame's work involved tracking Cheney/Halliburton dealings..

[coeur_de_lion]

350. Tellurian H2O has supported this theory in other posts -- maybe

he has a link for his assumptions, has read it somewhere, or can explain why he believes this is so.

He thinks that outing Plame was a two-fer. Because of the nature of her work, not just because her husband could prove that the 16 words in the SOTU address were disingenuous.

Why can't it have been both? Think about it. * wants a way out of Iraq AND Cheney wants to put a stop to Wilson and Plame in one swell foop. They get to pin the whole thing on Wilson and Plame, and they get rid of Plame's investigation. She is still around because she provides a convenient scapegoat along with her husband.

The "whys" for this issue are tangled and complex. I don't think we can choose a theory and blindly insist on it's relevance without considering others. Both are good theories.

H2O, care to comment?

[Tellurian]

352. Arby...I've reread the composite post in #314

First of all...the entire emphasis stating the proof to Lestadts assumption is tied to a link that doesn't work..

Second..but for the few words in Joe Klein's link stating no more than:

"Furthermore, there is intense anger over the White House's revealing the identity of Plame, who may have been active in a sting operation involving the trafficking of WMD components."...with Klein not not even hinting of mentioning anything to do with Halliburton/Cheney being fined in 1995 or another interpretation of Klein's statement to mean something else entirely. Like maybe Plame might have been monitoring activities of a current sting operation, like WMD trafficking in Iran..

As for the 'two-fer'...I originally posted that hypothetical in conjunction with Wilson as the target (not Plame). Which Klein seems to adhere to in the above link as also plausible.

I don't have a problem with it being both. I do have a problem with Plame being the intial target as stated in Lestadt's post, because there is no evidence pointing to Plame being a threat to Cheney, only a subjective opinion backed by a 20 yr history of Libya, Syria etc..on another unrelated topic and a fine pd by Haliburton 9 yrs ago.

As far as blindly choosing a theory..I'm not asking anyone to choose a theory...in fact, on the contrary, I'm trying to keep the door open rather than falling prey to a consolidated post like Lestadts post #314 whose assertions are far and away tangential and could be construed as misleading.

I'm done now..my theory has not been discredited from the beginning and I'll stand on that until more evidence surfaces that Plame was the initial target all along as purported by Lestadt.

I can't see the harm in traveling two parallel roads simultaneously...to maintain balance and objectivity.

[coeur_de_lion]

353. no harm done at all. Just pointing out that H2O

does believe that Plame's operation was also a target, and he is usually right.

Sorry if I came off as scolding, I certainly didn't intend to do that.;(

The threads are so long, and I'm so busy, and don't want to hunt for H2O's post that said Plame was part of the reason for their action. I'll hunt for it later, because I think it bears repeating. Or maybe H2O can spare me the trouble and tell us what he thinks about this aspect of the case.

[Tellurian]

354. Kudos, arby...

Thanks..at this point someone should create a new thread..

I have broadband and can empathize with the dial ups because the broadband is having trouble swallowing over 300 posts...just to read!

I think we're all in full agreement on that score!

[Pallas180]

328. TELL - H20 always says ask WHY was the Brit info made unavailaable

even to today and forever?

"
The plot was drawn up long before Wilson even went to Niger... the plot was in play supposedly when Cheney became aware of the Brits Intel (which has been conveniently made unavailable)

when Cheney became aware of the Brits Intel

that's why. And that's why the Brits won't show it -

because it exposes Cheney/Halliburton's black market sales

______________________________________________

You both are assuming that the Brit Intel is the same Intel that the
CIA had.

You're right about one thing...the intel agencies all share their info.

BUT you are forgetting that the French have been investigating CHeney
Halliburton illegalities for some time.

So there is nothing to say that the Brit Intel was the same Niger info.

In fact it may not be.

WHY would they not share with the world what information they had
about Iraq having WMD. And why have they suddenly changed their minds
again saying it was bogus after all - after insisting for 1 1/2 years
they had separate proof of Iraq having WMD.

Because it would cause a great deal of embarrassment to "he who calls
himself president of VICE ! !! a-ha!

Could be one of Halliburton;s subsidiaries or offshores, that was not recognized immediately...but it is highly plausible . First they say they have proof of WMD in Iraq.but refuse to show it.......now they suddenly say the proof is bogus - but refuse to reveal it.

sniff..sniff....sniff.....

[shraby]

332. I think we have some more problems

9/11 Commission Finds Ties Between al-Qaeda and Iran
Senior U.S. officials have told TIME that the 9/11 Commission's report will cite evidence suggesting that the 9/11 hijackers had previously passed through Iran

<http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,664967,00.html>

[Lestatdelc]

339. Once more we have to applaud Bush-Girl Barbara Bodine

...for having blocked John O'Neil's return to Yemen to fully investigate the suspect that is cited as being a key to making the "Iran-al-Qaeda" relationship claims.

(sigh)

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/knew/

[Pallas180]

336. SCHRABY- Don't ask Mod for new thread -we need to do ourselves so that w

we can post congress/media links and letters in header as done on this
link # 8

Okey dokey.

[shraby]

345. US sacks its woman in Baghdad (Barbara Bodine)

The US yesterday sacked one of its most senior envoys to Iraq after only three weeks, in an admission that the task of running the country is proving tougher than expected.
With Baghdad still in a state of chaos, there was a whiff of panic about Washington's removal of the top layer of its team responsible for reconstruction. There was also a hint that it is being forced to rethink its post-war strategy.

Barbara Bodine, the US coordinator for central Iraq, was ordered back to Washington, a casualty of the failure to restore law and order or basic public services to the capital, Baghdad.

She is the second senior US official to be sidelined within a week. Her partner in the country, retired general Jay Garner, head of the Office of Reconstruction and Humanitarian Aid (Orha), is also to be replaced within weeks, after a lacklustre performance. He too has only been in Baghdad for three weeks

(more)
<http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,954035,00.html>

How'd she get there???

Oh, and by the way...there is a lockdown at Los Alamos..still looking for the missing removable storage devices.

<http://www.onpointradio.org/shows/2004/07/20040716_a_main.asp>

[coeur_de_lion]

349. Pallas better to post the congress & media links in post 2

Takes too long to scroll down and find new posts if you put it in post 1.

And just what are you doing up at 5:00AM on a Saturday? You need to sleep. You're no good to us when you're tired. Be healthy, please.

[Pallas180]

355. New Thread # 9 Coming Up

:hi:

[Pallas180]

356. Actually if letters are in #1 relates to eeveryone what the whole thing is

and we also don't all have to go hunting for Congress and Media
e mail, phone, fax numbers. Ya just gotta be "up-front" and
let it all hang out.


:hi:

[Pallas180]

357. So much really good stuff this thread-pls all repost best yours on #9

thanks.

Hate to leave this thread. So much good and on point.