Plame indictments thread 7

[Moderator]

Thread 6:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1971177&mesg_id=1971177

[AVID]

1. H2O Thanks for the "Betrayal of America" suggestion

Should be required reading in High School

[shraby]

15. Link to ACLU concerning Patriot ACT II

They want to pass a piece of Patriot Act II which will expand the death penalty for civil disobedience?

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1983054>

[kohodog]

21. Death to all terrarists

What is the definition of a terrorist? How do you win a war on terror?

Shraby, thanks for reposting the link to the ACLU's letter to stop the madness.

Everyone, click the link a on Shraby's post and send a message to your rep.

[Pallas180]

54. Done. Below is a direct link to the form

http://www.aclu.org/NationalSecurity/NationalSecurity.cfm?ID=15502&c=24

[Pallas180]

55. SUGGESTED LETTERS TO SEND & ADDRESSES OF CONGRESS & MEDIA

278. CONTACT CONGRESS & LEADERSHIP ADDRESSES:


Fax Numbers of US Congress

http://www.no-smoking.org/feb97/2-17-97-01.html


Congressional Leadership

http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/cgi-bin/leadership.cg ...


Congressional Committees & Subcommittees

http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/cgi-bin/committee_lis ...


Misc. Contact Congress

http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/search.html


CALIMARY MEDIA & EDITORS CONTACT LIST


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


Updated Calimary list

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


Individual Reporters & Newspaper List

forgive me, it's on the drudge rag site, but it's useful

http://www.drudgereport.com /


Pallas180 (1000+ posts) Sun Jul-11-04 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #9

11. H20's SUGGESTED LETTER TO MEDIA & CONGRESS


for you to copy or use as a guide to send:


261. Here's a suggestion ......


Dear _________;

I am writing to express my concerns about on-going efforts to discredit Ambassador Joseph Wilson. In his NYT Op-Ed article "What I Didn't Find In Africa," Wilson exposed a claim by President Bush in his 2003 State of the Union Address to be untrue. Since that time, the White House has been involved in an effort to destroy Wilson's reputation, which included exposing his wife as a CIA operative.

In John Dean's review of Wilson's book (NYT Book Review; 5-23-04; pg9) he documents that two days after the op-ed article ran, journalist Robert Novak was telling people that Wilson's wife Valerie Plame was a CIS "weapons of mass destruction specialist."

Novak exposed Plame's identity in a 7-14-03 column. He sourced his story to two "senior administration officials." These two senior White House officials had lobbied at least six journalists to expose Plame in what Dean calls a "you-hurt-us-we-will-hurt-you warning" to those tempted to expose administration "misinformation."

When Wilson appeared on MSNBC's "Countdown," host Keith Olbermann held up three identical e-mails from the White House. Olbermann explained their intent was to discredit Wilson with their "talking points."

Wilson has noted that Sandy Berger, President Clinton's national security advisor pointed out that since the Bush people never back down, the fact that they had admitted an error after the op-ed article indicated "they must have something more important to protect." (The Politics of Truth, by Wilson; pg4)

Joseph Klein's 7-5-04 article in Time (Plenty More to Swear About; pg 21) reveals that Plame was "active in a sting operation involving the trafficking of WMD components" when her identity was exposed by the White House. "Only a high-ranking official could have had access to the knowledge that Plame was on the pay-roll," an intelligence source told Klein.

There is clearly more to this story than the White House and senate republicans are willing to tell the public. What investigation by Plame needed to be derailed by the White House? I hope that national leaders and the media will focus attention on this important issue.

Sincerely,


____________________________________________________________________


12. KOHO'S SHORT & SWEET SUGGESTED LETTER TO SEND


Dear_________;

I am writing about the outing of CIA Agent Valerie Plame. It seems that the Grand jury Investigation has wrapped up or will soon, but little has been mentioned of late. What may have been political payback to Joe Wilson for refuting the Niger yellowcake claims in the State of the Union address could have actually made this country a great deal less safe. According to Joseph Klein (Time 7-5-04--Plenty More to Swear About), Plame may have been "active in a sting operation involving the trafficking of WMD components." If this is true (or even a possibility, those responsible must be brought to justice. I submit that underground trafficking of WMD components presents a far more imminent threat to our country than Saddam Hussein did. In my mind this certainly achieves the status of "High Crimes," and I urge you to not let this issue fall by the wayside. The security of our country may have been irretrievably harmed by a few high ranking officials and they must be brought to task.

Sincerely,


_____________________________________________________________________


13. PALLAS' 'GIVE EM HELL' SUGGESTED LETTER


Dear ____________


Concerning Time magazine's Joe Klein's July 5 article, page 21 revealed that Valerie Plame was "active in a sting operation involving the trafficking of Weapons of Mass Destruction components"" when her identity was exposed by the White House. It also said" Only a high-ranking official could have had access to the knowledge" that Valerie Plame was a covert CIA agent.

1) Our study group has found that Vice President Cheney since 1995 as CEO of Halliburton was fined 1.2 milion dollars for illegal sales of similar components to Libya. Shortly before becoming Vice President he bitterly assailed US policy against selling such components to Syrria and Iran, which apparently hurt Halliburton's bottom line.

2) Our study group has also found that there is an investigation of Vice President Cheney in other countries for illegal bribery and various other offenses connected to Halliburton as well as paying amounts to secret Swiss bank accounts

3)The Atomic Energy Commission has said a North American company is one of 20 being investigated for black market sales of WMD materials.

Our study group suspects there is more to the White House revealing Valerie Plame's covert CIA status since the Republicans refuse to hold investigations on the matter.

Frankly, it would appear to us that possibly Valerie Plame was stopped in her tracks and the CIA sting operation was exposed because it was coming close to discovering another violation of the laws by our own Vice President and the Hallibuton company he has awarded billions of US taxpayer dollars to in non-bid contracts.

There is a question of where the Vice President's and President's loyalty lies: to their Corporate friends and company's bottom line or to the security and wellbeing of the America.n people?

In any case, the exposure of Valerie Plame by the White House was and is treasonous.

The responsibility of the Media and Congress is to expose these wrong doings, investigate and safeguard against this type of occurrence for the American people.

WHY are you not fulfilling your role to me, to my study group, and the rest of the American people in this country and WHEN will you start ?


Sincerely

[KoKo]

125. Someone please repost "Betrayal of America" for Dial Up folks here on DU!

Some of us can't get down after posts go over 100...and if H20Man had a good post could you repeat?

[merh]

2. Thank you !

:hi:

[Occulus]

3. aside to you personally:

I really wasn't trying to be arrogant or anything. It's just that people kept asking.... I'm only trying to help. :)

[merh]

5. No sweat, your action may have encouraged the moderator to

act. No harm, no foul. We were all very anxious. :-)

[Occulus]

7. cool :) n/t

[doctorbombeigh]

9. Need some clues here...

Why was everyone "anxious" on this thread? (sorry - I'm new) I ask because there's another Plame thread wherein someone invited us to this one, which has apparently been going on forever.

I'm a HUGE fan of the Plame scandal - huge. I think it has had, and will have, a much larger negative effect than this administration of swine will ever admit.

It's a smoking gun pointed directly at the "national security" administration and it's still got a full clip.

[merh]

11. We are anxious to learn as much as we can about any and

all developments. It is also quite fascinating to read how the different minds may reach the same (or very similiar) conclusions from different sources. This is a book/novel in the making. The longer the thread, the harder it is to follow the new entries, especially if you are on dial up.

Welcome and enjoy the adventure.

Upon edit: Someone will post the links to the other 6 threads if you care to read through them. I hope someone downloads them as word/pdf docs that we can save to our hard drives.

[Eloriel]

23. Links -- all 7 threads (plus one)

If and when indictments come down in the Plame case,
(see esp. #182 --> but don't miss H20 posts earlier)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1902738

GREAT 300+ DU thread now as MSWord.doc (easier download)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1924648

If and when indictments come down in the Plame case-thread2
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1920799

Plame indictments.....Thread 3
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1933148

Plame indictments.....Thread 4
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1946368

Plame indictments.....Thread 5
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1962806

Plame indictments......thread 6
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1971177

Plame indictments thread 7
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1987271

[merh]

26. You are wonderful. Thanks

:headbang:

[kohodog]

12. welcome drbombeigh!

Take a few moments (os should I say days) to check out the earlier threads, especially if you're interested in the Plame scandal. Many have contributed to a riveting story that brings in insight and facts from many angles. Yes, some are scary, but put together an amazing narritive is being told, a fantastic collaborative effort to digest what's happening to our democracy and a call to action to make a difference. Go back and read, or jud=st hang around and add your thoughts.

[doctorbombeigh]

32. Thanks!

I'm looking forward to reading the threads - someone posted links to all of them.

I LOVE the Plame scandal, can't wait to read everything and I'm not scared a bit. I know who these people are - an administration of swine.

[merh]

4. H2O - one day you must share with us your impressions

of the JFK - Warren Commission controversy. That would make a wonderful thread. Having met and done some work for John Connally several years back (couldn't resist - had to ask him what he thought) I would love to read your impressions.

Now back to Plame - it is obvious from the press and their attacks on Wilson, that things are heating up. Tomorrow may not be the day indictments are returned, but can we still expect some rumblings?


(As you sit on your park bench reading, do you worry that we cannot stop this freight train?)

[H2O Man]

18. Fascinating topic! Glad you asked.

Below on this thread, on post #14 our friend tacticalpeak quotes an exchange between friend robertpaulsen and myself on the movie JFK.
After that exchange, friend bigskydem posed a serious question -- especially in light of the fact that I admire Vince Bugliosi. And in his great book, The Betrayal of America, Vince says some strong words about those who doubt the Warren Commission. bsd's post is #312; I answer on #331, directly below bsd's; then bsd responds.

I'm not sure if that exchange is of interest .... I suspect it might be. Perhaps you could switch over to that thread and read it, and come back here and respond. Also, if any talented friend cares to post that exchange below tacticalpeak's post #14 here, I would appreciate that.

There is, of course, a two week addition on the Plame grand jury investigation. While this is in a sense disappointing, I think we will be well-served by those two weeks of additional information.

I am hoping that Ambassador Wilson will expose the snakes in the White House and the republican senate. I talked to a couple associates earlier today. They felt that Wilson is likely to respond this week. There is no one -- no one -- on the opposing side that is going to dare go man-to-man with Wilson in an open debate. They are such liars! I am surprised that they are bringing this weak shit up against him .... because there is NOTHING REAL to what they are saying. Wilson is brilliant, and we can rest assured he is going to address the pathetic attacks against him and Valerie .... I expect that tomorrow may be the opening round of his response!

[merh]

25. Posted as requested.

I was afraid that the extension of the grand jury would alter the cork popping on the champagne that I was looking forward to tomorrow.
Hopefully, things will come gushing (oil term) out soon - or maybe it will be a battle of the July surprises. Plame indictments versus Osama Bin Laden Popsickle thaw!

You did not answer, so I will ask again - as you sit on your park bench reading, do you worry that we cannot stop this freight train or do you have faith in the good of the folks that really matter?

[H2O Man]

33. Sorry about that!

I'll try to answer your question, as I understand it. I really don't feel "fear." I feel for the suffering of innocent human beings, who live -- and die -- in the United States and in other countries. Of course that includes Iraq and Afghanistan. I also have a sense of compassion for those who I believe are partially and even fully in the wrong. I admit that this can create difficulties for me at times, because some of what we are witnessing today is so wrong that it can only correctly be called evil. And so that is the "general context" of how I view the larger picture.

When I look at the Plame investigation specifically, I do have serious concerns .... I am confident that eventally good overcomes evil .... but I recognize that this country that I love could cease to be as we know it .... imperfect as it is, I believe we have an obligation to hand it down to the next generation .... and that may not be possible. The degree of anger, fear, and hatred in America today is at times distressing. Some people may believe the Plame conflict is minor, or small. But a fuse is also small, compared to the keg. But when that fuse is lit, the keg goes off. And I think that there are criminals in this administration that are not going to ease their grip on the reins of power willingly.

Gandhi said that anxiety about the future is sheer atheism. I like that thought. I'm not sure what will happen in our country Wednesday. I understand that Tony Blair will be exposed by a report on the pre-war intelligence. I'm hoping that Wilson will make a public response in the afternoon.

[merh]

35. I will keep Gandi's statement in mind - it is worth remembering

and observing. So Mr. Blair will have to answer for his alliance with the evil weed. I am glad that will happen. Unfortunately for us and the people of Iraq, Blair's allegiance to and alliance with the admin gave the invasion credibility. It is time he answers to the people of GB for his lies and misdirections.

Anxiety about the future is sheer atheism.

Thanks again.

[H2O Man]

38. Your thoughts on the Warren Commission?

And did John Connally say anything important? I have found his wife's comments over the years to be of great interest.

[merh]

42. The report released in '64 was about as substantial as the

report released last week on the intelligence agencies. Oddly enough, there is another thread discussing it right now.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1982621

When I met Conally, I was young and impish, and I found him to be an elder statesman and gentleman. More like a country squire or rancher in vast contrast to *'s cowboy crudeness. As I was young, I was able to get away with asking him about the assasination. Even though over 25 years had passed since that day, he was relunctant to discuss much. I remember thinking how odd it was that after all those years he would be so cautious. He did tell me that he did not believe it was a lone gunman. Then we simply discussed the horror of that day, how his heart ached for Jackie and what it was like to be in the motorcade.

My employer became annoyed that I was monopolizing his time, so he sent me out of the room to get some coffee for our guest. We never had the chance to finish our conversation, but I will never forget that short encounter that told me so much, but yet so little.

[merh]

50. Have you seen this Ray McGovern article referened in another thread?

Corrupted Intelligence
Ray McGovern
July 12, 2004

McGovern and other veteran intelligence officers spent the weekend digesting the Senate Intelligence Committee report and ended up sick to their stomachs. Not only did the report confirm what they already knew——that the CIA skewed intelligence——but corruption ran much deeper, with analysts cooking up outright lies. In the wake of the report, McGovern worries media across the political spectrum aren't doing their job. They are buying without question the administration spin about the Senate report: that the White House led the nation to war because of bad intelligence, rather than ill-conceived policy.

Ray McGovern, a CIA analyst for 27 years, is co-founder of Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity.
(snip)

http://www.tompaine.com/articles/corrupted_intelligence.php

-----------------------
Discussed in this thread
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1985874

[Pallas180]

56. OK- where can we get hold of Ray McGovern & give him a lil help?

does anyone know?

I'm sure he'd appreciate our synopsis of why Valerie Plame was
sidelined....and if he has known all along, he might appreciate
the knowledge that at least 47,000 citizens know.

[merh]

87. Have you read Nellie's book yet? (n/t)

[Pallas180]

57. Big Dawg has been in England bolstering Blair's position. A friend in need

is a friend indeed.

I adore Big Dawg but he is not being helpful in this matter, even
though I do feel sorry for poort Tony.

Tony lent his support to the stupid one, to give him legitimacy and
credibility, (which unfortunately worked). But he was wise enough not to lend a large amount of British treasure to be slaughtered.

[merh]

64. There was an author on hannity & calamity last night who has just

had his book about mrs big dawg releasd (US Evita or something like that). He claims that big dawg and mrs big dawg do not want Kerry/Edwards to win. Big dawg tried to get her named VP this time around, but since she wasn't they both want K/E to lose to * because she will run in 2008 for P.

[Pallas180]

80. MERH more hate mongering by the rabid right propaganda

"divide and conquer" is their motto.

hate gays - appeals to homophobics to vote for him

hate blacks - appeals to the bigots - by not appearing at NAACP he
sends out that message

divide the country and conquer for elections

[merh]

81. I agree with you --

I think it is funny about the big dawg/mrs big dawg no wanting K/E to win. That will give the cons that watch faux who hate big dawg a reason to vote for K/E ticket - out of spite. Anger, hate and spite are their strongest motivators. It could back fire on them.
Some cons could see that * has no problem, and it would be more satisfying for them to spite big dawg. Others may not be too sure of *, their faith may have weakened in his abilities so voting for K/E would be easier if it was to spite mr & mrs big dawg.

[lancdem]

114. That's crap

They both support Kerry/Edwards strongly.

[Pallas180]

126. Lanc - do you mean that's doo-doo? poop? bird turd? I love

euphemisms, you know :)

:hi:

[Tellurian]

65. I wouldn't be so sure about that...H2Oman

"There is no one -- no one -- on the opposing side that is going to dare go man-to-man with Wilson in an open debate."

They are so desperate, they would go to the extreme of manufactuing evidence.. see here:

"The C.I.A. first began looking into reports that Iraq was seeking uranium from Niger in October 2001, much earlier than previously disclosed. A foreign intelligence service, which is unidentified in the Senate report but which is believed to be Britain's, had said Niger was planning to ship several tons of uranium ore - called yellowcake - to Iraq. The foreign service told the C.I.A. that the Iraqi sales agreement dated to 1999, and had been approved by Niger's president, Tandja Mamadou."

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/14/politics/14nige.html

[H2O Man]

67. I agree that they are desperate, but:

this information isn't "new" to those following the case closely. You are correct in saying that the "source" is to be found within the British intel community. They have refused to submit their "foundation of evidence" to the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) as mandated by international agreement. My feeling is that Wilson would likely point this out.

And that would bring up a more important point: there were already three reports at CI and at VP cheney's secret intel group that exposed this as a farce. These include reports by the American Ambassador to Niger, Barbro Owens-Kirkpatrick, and by 4 -star Marine Corps General Carleton Fulford.

Wilson has significant information to discredit any of the efforts being used by the White House right now. A year ago, the administration found that their red-faced, shouting jack-asses that tried to "debate" Wilson on the talk shows did not fare well. Hence they resorted to having experts like Caspar Weinberger write articles for the Wall Street Journal that tried to discredit Wilson by focusing attention on the fact he drank ice tea in Niger. Believe me, Wilson has taken off the gloves. He will point out, for example, that Cap is an expert on issues involving senior officials committing crimes to help their president .... because Cap would have served time in prison if not for a pardon by Bush 1 .

[Tellurian]

69. Yes, they are desperate...

I try not to speak in absolutes because it gives one a false sense of security. As much as I support Wilson 100% and his valiant efforts to defend his wife; the fact remains he is up against a "machine"..

Wilson has laid all his cards on the table, iow, he has deposed himself in his book. Now the other side is able to manufacture evidence from a kaleidoscope of sources to counter every aspect covered in his book.

You said, you hope a statement is issued by Wilson today, I hope not.

Not unless indictments are immanent and are guaranteed to be coming down soon.

Heres a new piece in case you haven't read it:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3891503.stm

[merh]

71. Thanks for the link - I had not seen that article yet. (n/t)

[TacticalPeek]

76. Why is it so hard for journalists to get the basic facts straight?

I declare, my high school journalism class would have gotten this story straighter than these "pro's". From the BBC article:

Following the discovery of the forgeries, President George W Bush withdrew the charges. (re: Niger claim)

False. Inaccurate. Incorrect. No cigar.

The forgeries were revealed in March, 2003, and nobody withdrew any claim. The march to war only quickened, and we all know why: aWol had to get it on before ALL the wheels came off their concoction of lies. But bushco DID begin their "work-up" on Wilson then.

The claim was not withdrawn until July, 2003, after Wilson pulled their pants down. Withdrawn very quickly (hmm), with hardly a peep of protest (hmm), the ONLY 'mistake' in their whole fabric of deceit that they admitted (hmm). All those 'hmms' should indicate to any journalist covering this that more digging and reporting was needed.

:shrug:

The NYT article in post #65 is interesting, summarizing some of the Senate report's timeline. It shows that over and over and over again, this flakey Niger thing (in various forms) keeps popping up at intel outfits around the planet. Like the "Whack-a-Mole" game. Doesn't anybody wonder who was inside the game machine, pushing up the poor mole, like maybe this time it won't get whacked?

Journalists! When will they return?

[Tellurian]

78. The way it works with journalists..

is your integrity factor has to be unreachable by any form of temptation. Or, the intimidation factor cannot be used as a weapon against you or your family. Or, know this, if they really want to deep six you because of non compliance in propagating the lie...they can.

Today, being a journalist is as dangerous as being a dynamite salesman.
Unless you can magically wield the Truth like SEYMOUR M. HERSH!

Hey, a strange thing just happened..

My digital tv in the FR is tuned to nbc..I still keep an old anlog tv in the kitchen. The digital tv tuned in to some other program for about 1 1/2 min..while the analog tv continued uninterrupted. I didn't catch what the interview was about. But to me what just happened reinforces the rumor I heard several months ago...censorship of content will be rampant on digi cable.

[Elginoid]

82. The Octopus has other, "more efficient" ways of dealing with it's enemies.

just ask Danny Casolaro or Paul Wellstone.

oh wait- you can't.

I hope wilson remains in a safe place, and stays away from ALL planes, small or large.

[Pallas180]

127. Danny Casolaro has to be smiling. All he wrote of has come out

in the open. Octopus, Promis, Carlyle, corruption, illegal armament
trade....and more.

[Occulus]

6. to nu_duer

The threads have been spawned as a result of a great deal of creative thinking from a number of people, as well as a huge amount of amazing research on the part of our fellow DUers.

Someone posted several of those previous threads in Adobe .pdf format with links intact. If that person happens upon this post, or if anyone else knows where they are, please post that info here... I looked for them but couldn't find them. :(

It's worth reading those at leisure, once they're found. I'll keep looking, but for now rest assured that it's a very good read.... simply some of the best public discussion I've ever read on the internet.

[shraby]

19. The links to files you can download

are in thread 6. I think they are word files.

[Beam Me Up]

52. linkns to word and pdf files

http://www.aeschatech.com/dumpster/

The ones with titles "PlameIndictments" (with capitalization) are PDF files with links in tact. They are large files, however, and not so easy to print out.

The "plamd-indictments" documents (all lower case) are MSWord files, smaller download, easy print out, but many of the links (both inside and to out side web sites) are truncated (shortened) and do not work.

I haven't had time to do 5 and 6 yet but will when I can.

[SpiralHawk]

8. Your Assignment, Should You Choose To Accept It

Is -- in 25 words or less, or whatever -- to give a summary of the preceding 6 thread.

Synopsis -- for those who cannot handle the huge downloads...

It would be a high service.

"We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark. The real tragedy of life is when men (and women) are afraid of the light." - Plato

[Occulus]

13. Hooo-AHHHH!

That's quite a piece of homework. I'll try, but it'll take a while.

[starroute]

10. Answering Pallas's last message to me

Thread #6 got locked while I was composing, so I'll repeat what she said first and then give my response. She'd responded to my post #260 there by saying:

What about being an outlaw within the system? A monkeywrench in the wheel? Could that be a better choice than being a hunted outlaw without the system? Not much you can do to revolutionize the system in a jail cell, except of course revolutionize your fellow prisoners. Not fun.

If we think about it, many of those who started as "outlaws" as "Tactical" pointed out, are now working within the system, like Representative Rush,a former panther; Tom Hayden, former Nam Anti-War activist became an elected official, the bombmakers of the Weathermen are now professors at colleges.

Work outside the system, you're the outlaw out in the cold without important societal support, within the system legally, you get the support of others and perhaps powerful others who think the same way.

Of course, I;m not talking about civil disobedience which ususally sets the tone and leadership for the rest of the country (eventually, anyway) I still consider that within the system. After all there is still a First and Fourth Amendment isn't there?

Or is there?


And my response is:

By "outlaw" I don't mean being a hunted criminal

There's no good word for what I'm trying to describe -- which is why I spoke of operating in a higher dimension which is invisible to the normal society.

I don't mean anything metaphysical by this. For land-bound cultures, seafarers are outside the system. They can go anywhere and aren't limited by any one set of local laws and customs. In a feudal society, where everyone serves a lord, the masterless warrior is outside the system. The Internet has also been both anonymous and outside national laws -- although the powers that be are doing their best to change that.

I've known a lot of people over the years who claimed to be rebels within the system, and none of them ever actually did anything even remotely rebellious. So I suspect that one's more a pose than a reality -- about on the level of wearing turtlenecks to work instead of button-down collars. If you're in the system, you're either supporting it or you're actively sabotaging it. And sabotage isn't a particularly viable method of opposition -- among other things, it's far too likely to do damage to innocent bystanders.

Part of the thing about working outside the system is that you have to be a moving target. When Gandhi first started doing civil disobedience, it took the British completely by surprise. They didn't know how to respond to it -- and that was where its power lay. But these days, civil disobedience is old news. The authorities have gotten very good at suppressing or censoring it, and it doesn't even make very intersting street theater any more.

If I knew what the next really effective technique would be, I wouldn't be talking about it, I'd be doing it. But the fact is that I don't know any more than you do. The things I *do* know are that (1) liberals make wusses of themselves by their eagerness to play nice and color within the lines, (2) conservatives aren't limited in that way, but in their ruthlessness they turn themselves into monsters, and (3) the middle path between those two extremes is to be what I'm calling an "honest outlaw."

Come to thing of it, Michael Moore is probably as good a current example of this as anyone. Ever since the "Roger and Me" days, he's been operating outside the unstated norms of the society -- and making himself a total pain in the ass to the rich and powerful in the process. His very scruffiness of appearance is part of what sets him outside the norms (which decree that people in movies have to be pretty and well-groomed.) He doesn't break laws and he doesn't hurt anyone, but he provides damned good street theater. And he isn't a liberal, but something for which there isn't any proper label.

If we could understand what Michael Moore is *really* doing -- and then do a hundred different variations on it -- we might have something.

[Pallas180]

41. STAR - you're a heavy thinker. " The middle path

(3) the middle path between those two extremes is to be what I'm calling an "honest outlaw."

I think that's what they call a politician.

[starroute]

84. Politicians are neither outlaws nor honest

To put it in old-time dungeons and dragons terms, the position I'm describing is Chaotic Good.

Politicians, on the other hand, tend to split between Lawful Neutral and Lawful Evil (plus a tiny handful of Lawful Good.) It isn't the same thing at all.

[Tellurian]

95. star, the whole point of being, is to acquire wisdom as we go...

The most curious thing I've learned from Republicans is how embedded words in labels and titles are not necessarily self explanatory definitions.

The words 'honest outlaw' as you've just mentioned would not qualify as an example they would use. Their definition of what you've described as your political bent would be something like "Retired Corporatist." Ha! ...cute.

[TacticalPeek]

14. "Death is our business, and business is good."

I'll just hog some space right away, to provide a transition that avoids reloading monster #6 to see what I'm responding to, and for anyone just now joining us. From robertpaulsen and H2O Man:

robertpaulsen
Response to Reply #277
286. Hey H2O Man! I watched JFK last night.

I was thinking about some of the things you wrote about Prouty when the scene with X and Jim Garrison came up. I haven't read Prouty's book yet, but I'll be looking for it.

X (Prouty) did say the real question is "Why?" Then he asked a series of questions to Garrison related to the JFK assassination that I shall transpose into our current scandal:

1. Why was Plame outed?

2. Who benefited?

3. Who has the power to cover it up?

I'm so glad you helped focus our attention on the why. We've uncovered a bit of information on what the "sting operation" may have constituted. I was wondering, in terms of defining the chief beneficiary of the outing, is it more important to think in terms of government or financial organizations? What would help us dig deeper into why this was done?

Thanks for the thumbs-up on my letter. I'll be sending that to the media contacts on Calimary's list. Then I shall go to work on a letter speaking out against the possibility of election "postponement". Then I'll encourage Time to give Joe Klein whatever he needs to maintain his investigation!


H2O Man
Response to Reply #286
296. JFK is a great movie......

You have done a flawless job of transposing the questions from Dallas to Washington. And then you follow-up with a serious question on "who benefitted"? Is it government, or is it business?

I'm going to answer that, although there is some risk that I will repeat some information I put on the first thread of this conversation. It's nothing new, and certainly nothing original in what I'm saying. In fact, back before WW2, some of the most insightful thinkers around the globe noted it as a growing hreat to humanity. And Ike warned the nation, as you witnessed on the movie JFK.

Government and big business are the same thing. Look at Halliburton: my God, that is so unAmerican! This corporation in all of its manifest forms runs the foreign policy of America .... not for the good of our citizens (as Michael Moore showed so well!), but rather for the good of the investors!

Forget bush for a moment. Look at men like cheney, or rumsfeld, or any one of a dozen more in this administration: they serve in an administration, go into private business, serve in an administration, and go back and forth.

Behind this group are an even higher ranking "power elite." They are less likely to take government jobs. There are a few who go back & forth: in this generation, think of Jim Baker.

The military has obviously played a significant role since WW2. As Eisenhower noted, there was a danger posed by the military when as an industry, it dominated the economy. He didn't say there was a huge threat that the army would be patrolling the streets -- simply that they would run the business world.

The military, including the numerous and at times mildly conflicting CI & MI's served as the body-guards and enforcers for the government, for big business (think United fruit!), but particularly for that power elite. And the CI/MI often used resources from "private" forces, some who were independant contractors, and others who worked for specific foreign business interests.

JFK threatened the upper reaches of the business world, including the military industrial complex. Pallas180 may have something to say about JFK and McNamara "awarding" contracts to General Dynamics & Grumman, specifically to help in certain states in the upcoming '64 election. Also, obviously, he was "ending" US involvement in Vietnam, and had said he was going to deconstruct CI.

A combination of private contractors connected to some right-wing elements in MI and texas oil objected to Kennedy's plans.

Today, we see that this president funnels contracts to Halliburton, a company that pays cheney more than his VP position does. And we see how Halliburton "contracts" a "private army" that is nothing if not the American sibling of the Central American death squads they trained in the 1980s.

Add to that the Iran-Contra scandal, VP bush vs senator Kerry, and we've come full circle.


-------------------------------------------------------------------


"Death is our business, and business is good."

Army helicopter unit, Vietnam, 1968


A business must, over time, make a profit. That's just the way it is.

Also, a business must grow. Especially a large business, and over time it will either eat or be eaten. That's just the way it is.

So what happens when the business is War? It still must make a profit, and it still must grow. Therefore, to contain yet maintain this troublesome dynamic, the government may have 'special' relations with these enterprises, to help them prosper during peace and to give them incentives to perform during the risky times of war.

Once these relations are in place, the enterprise is in the driver's seat, and the outcome is obvious, absent one or both of two things: enlightened restraint of the enterprise by government, and enlightened self-restraint by the enterprise itself.

Absent both, natural dynamics will lead to the self-destructive cycles which are climaxing around us in the world today. This is especially true when the decision-makers and their interests culminate in interchangeability between the government and the war enterprise. The pinnacle of this problem has now been reached in the person of Pork Chop Boy.


I like the motto of the helicopter unit, by the way. That is the mission of US military forces: to destroy our enemies. That's just the way it is. The thing is, they should make war for us, the American people and our interests, under our Constitution, not for Halliburton and Carlyle Group, and their interests.

[merh]

22. H2O asked that they be posted below your post

bigskydem (370 posts) Tue Jul-13-04 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #296

312. H20 - Doesn't Bugliosi debunk the movie "JFK". . .


and Oliver Stone in his introduction to "Betrayal of America"?

He is convinced of a single shooter and believes the Warren Report.

Your thoughts?


************************

H2O Man (1000+ posts) Tue Jul-13-04 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #312

331. What Vince does is to


say that he is frequently able to silence an audience in the following way: generally, about 85% of the public does not believe in the Warren Report .... Vince asks those who do not believe in it to raise their hands .... let's say that 85 out of an audience of 100 people raise their hand. Then he asks how many have read the entire warren Commission report? Usually, none of the audience has. Bugliosi then says that those who have not read the report are in no position to make an informed judgement on it.

As many who have read my posts on here know, I have a very high opinion of Bugliosi. I think he is extremely smart, sharp as a tack, and a very talented debater. He is also as honest a man as you will find in public life today. He has been working on a 2-volume book on the Kennedy assassination.

I think that it's important to remember that people who respect and admire each other can have honest disagreements. Vince is wrong on the JFK assassination. His little bit on who's read the entire Warren Commission report is merely a debater's point. I'm serious here -- not just blowing my horn: I'll debate him any day of the week, in front of any open-minded group of people, and I'll have at very least 99% of any audience knowing without any doubt that the Warren Commission is flawed.

Two things: first, remember the old lawyer's debating point about the apple pie -- if you find a dead insect in the first piece you cut, you don't have to eat the whole pie to know it's no good. (And I'll bet there's no one in the United States EXCEPT Vince that's read that entire dismal batch of crap! No wonder he hasn't finished his project.)

We don't even need to go as far as the "magic bullet" theory to entirely discredit the Warren Commission. One of the most decent politicians of the last century did it in one page of his biography. The Man of the House, by Tip O'Neill, on page 211: this honorable man respected JFK. He tells us he never believed in any conspiracy, until he had dinner with Kenny O'Donnell and Dave Powers, Kennedy men who were with him in Dallas. They told the FBI investigators that at least some of the shots came from in front, near the grassy knoll. The FBI pressured them to lie. O'Neill doesn't go into full detail, but as great of an attorney as Vince would have to admit that if the investigators assisting the WEarren Commission pressured these top aides to KNOWINGLY LIE UNDER OATH for "the good of the family, so they can put this behind them,"(not an exact quote, but close) .... than the evidence has a fatal flaw.

Further, since the WCR was published, significant amounts of evidence that was withheld by the FBI and CIA has surfaced. There is no debate that this is true.

I have great respect for Vincent Bugliosi. But I'd spank him in a debate that goes by the rules of evidence as defined by our court system. Vince, if you read this, I'll do it with one hand tied behind my back. (smile)

[TacticalPeek]

27. I dig.

The Daily Show with Jon Stewart is now feasting on governmental insanity, big-time!

[Pallas180]

58. A THEORY ON THE WHY - Plame -> Cheney->Halliburton

On my way home today, as I thought about the why the outing of Valerie
Plame was necessary, I was so engrossed I drove 4 exits past my exit.

Here's what we know:

1) Valerie Plame was "active in a sting operation involving the trafficking of Weapons of Mass Destruction components"" when her identity was exposed by the White House. It also said" Only a high-ranking official could have had access to the knowledge" that Valerie Plame was a covert CIA agent.

2) Vice President Cheney since 1995 as CEO of Halliburton was fined 1.2 milion dollars for illegal sales of components to Libya which could be used for nuclear purposes. Shortly before becoming Vice President he bitterly assailed US policy against selling such components to Syrria and Iran, which apparently hurt Halliburton's bottom line.

3) There is an investigation of Vice President Cheney in other countries for illegal bribery and various other offenses connected to Halliburton as well as paying amounts to secret Swiss bank accounts

4)The Atomic Energy Commission has said a North American company is one of 20 being investigated for black market sales of WMD materials.

Here's the theory:

Valerie Plame was stopped in her tracks and the biggest treasonous taboo of revealing a CIA sting operation was done because she/it was coming close to discovering even more serious violations of the laws against trading nuclear materials with certain countries by our own Vice President and the Hallibuton company he has awarded billions of US taxpayer dollars to in non-bid contracts after he became VP.

Recently Libya was accused of having WMD components and the US threat
ened to invade unless Quaddaffi gave the WMD components to the US.
Bush 2 was seen on TV this week inspecting the cases of returned materials from Iraq triumphantly. The fact that Quaddafi received these illegal shipments of components from Cheney/Halliburton was not
mentioned in the victory video.

Dick Cheney, even after the Senate Intel Committee, The Atomic Commission and numerous other agencies have said no WMD exist in Iraq,
insists Iraq has WMD even in the last week.

Why? Because Dick Cheney knows he, through an offshore Halliburton company with a PO Box, at some time in the past sold Saddam Hussein WMD or components of WMD. In the same way "they" under Bush 1 adminstration sold Hussein lethal gas which he used, and then attacked him for using it saying he was a threat to the community.

Why do Cheney and Bush insist they must attack Syrria and Iran as the next step in making the world safe and that Syrria and Iran have
WMD? Cheney-Halliburton know that Syrria and Iran have WMD components because Cheney illegally sold the WMD components to Syrria and Iran.

Why did Bush Cheney know that North Korea had WMD and where did they gget the components?

Why were Pakistan and India able to test and develop nuclear weapons undetected by the CIA's "big eye in the sky" or any agency's seismic
discovery? And where did India and Pakistan purchase the components
for WMD which were illegal for any company to sell them?

What was Valerie Plame investigating?

This sounds like the book/movie "The Pelican Brief". If you don't hear from me, send out the St. Bernards. (kidding).

[LeftHander]

66. THis is a very good theory....

Add to it the trips Dick made to the CIA to meet with people. We may have at first glance thought this was to sift through intel but maybe it was REALLY about tracking down who was getting close disclosing Halliburton's shady Nuke deals and exposing Cheney's chicanery.

I could just see his face light up when he found out Wilson's wife Plame was an operative. It was a huge find for him as he would be able to easily offer info to Rove that would defend Dimson's stupid comments on Niger in the SOTU address and would effectivly kill an ongoing investigation that would ultimately uncover more illegal activity by Cheny and possibly Halliburton.


Cheney is no dumbhead like W. If he outed Plame he did so to protect Halliburton and himself.

Cheney has played this administration like a cheap violin. He has drug them in so deep now there is no recourse but to fight like hell, kicking and screaming.

So that is why we now we see the Rovian spin machine start to set the stage to discredit Wilson and Plame. They are operating on personal favors now. How many do they have left?

I suspect not many.

[merh]

73. I never thought of that - of course f'u is convinced that Iraq

has WMD components, he knows Haliburton sold them to SH. It is so simple and so clear. Of course admin's dilemma, admit how you know (because I sold them to SH) and face the treason, fed law violations. Or have no basis to back up your claim, just that you know.

[Pallas180]

128. MERH - hee hee hee - pretty good theoretical explanation.

"You know because you did it, but if you reveal it, you go to a federal prison or to the Hague."

Backfired on him , eh what?

[merh]

138. Well, it sure seems f'u has himself caught in a web.

Brings to mind that sage saying "oh what a tangle web we weeve, when first we practice to deceive." A rock and a hard place would be easier to deal with. heeeheee

[jbutsz]

74. When was PNAC founded?

Because, while reading your theory here, it seemed to me that the secret and illegal sale of WMD/WMD components by Cheney/Halliburton throughout the world creates a damn good pretext for later executing their "Project for New American Century". Is this the trail that Plame was sniffing out?

This may be a bit tinfoiled, but if Halliburton under Cheney truly sold illegal WMD components to all of these countries in the 90's (and earlier?), it looks as if they have been methodically manufacturing their "way in", and thus the 'War on Terror(ME)' was devised long before 9/11. I am beginning to feel that they "got lucky" with 9/11, and I imagine them salivating at the thought of something like 9/11 happening; who would benefit more from such a catalyzing event?

If they have been planning this for so long (not 9/11, but ME War), they truly don't intend to lose come November; they absolutely cannot afford to lose power while they are so invested. If they lose power now they will never again be able to re-create these conditions for executing PNAC. This itself might explain the extreme nature of their actions (outing a CIA NOC?!) to retain and expand power and destroy any perceived threat (including Democracy).

[robertpaulsen]

118. Try these sites.

I'm not sure if it was officially formed in 96 or 97 but I know a lot of these people were doing dirtywork at AEI before that.

Here's their site:

http://www.newamericancentury.org/

Here's a site dedicated to exposing them:

http://pnac.info/

[Pallas180]

130. JBUTSZ Exactly."secret & illegal sale of WMD/WMD components by Cheney

"secret and illegal sale of WMD/WMD components by Cheney/Halliburton throughout the world creates a damn good pretext for later executing their "Project for New American Century"." EXACTLY

" it looks as if they have been methodically manufacturing their "way in", and thus the 'War on Terror(ME)' was devised long before 9/11."
EXACTLY.

" I am beginning to feel that they "got lucky" with 9/11" - uh er uh

THAT IS REALLY QUESTIONABLE NOW. THEY WROTE IN PNAC ORIGINALLY, "THE AMERICAN
PEOPLE WILL NEVER GO TO WAR UNLESS THEY ARE ATTACKED ON A SCALE OF
PEARL HARBOR" (paraphrasing but almost exact words) if the American people would not go to war, then their dream of Empire and World Ruler, and continual war would not come to fruition.

[Occulus]

175. It was much wider than that in the RAD document

Up until page 51, "Rebuilding America's Defenses" speaks in general about the need to increase overall American Military strength, putting our nation into a position in which no other nation, including our allies, could militarily surpass ours. What they say until page 51 is a general call to world domination, and least insofar as our military forces are the best and the strongest, permenantly, and could deploy anywhere on Earth in a matter of hours. They don't actually come out and say that last, but they make their meaning known.

Here's a link to the html version, which also itself links to the original .pdf .

Here are the words you were looking for:

"Any serious effort at transformation must occur within the larger framework of U.S. national security strategy, military missions and defense budgets. The United States cannot simply declare a “strategic pause” while experimenting with new technologies and operational concepts. Nor can it choose to pursue a transformation strategy that would decouple American and allied interests. A transformation strategy that solely pursued capabilities for projecting force from the United States, for example, and sacrificed forward basing and presence, would be at odds with larger American policy goals and would trouble American allies.

Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor. Domestic politics and industrial policy will shape the pace and content of transformation as much as the requirements of current missions. A decision to suspend or terminate aircraft carrier production, as recommended by this report and as justified by the clear direction of military technology, will cause great upheaval. Likewise, systems entering production today – the F-22 fighter, for example – will be in service inventories for decades to come. Wise management of this process will consist in large measure of figuring out the right moments to halt production of current-paradigm weapons and shift to radically new designs. The expense associated with some programs can make them roadblocks to the larger process of transformation – the Joint Strike Fighter program, at a total of approximately $200 billion, seems an unwise investment. Thus, this report advocates a two-stage process of change – transition and transformation – over the coming decades."

An interesting fact: some versions I have read on the internet (unsure if this applies to the original now as well) make no mention of that text; a simple search for "Pearl Harbor" yields no results.

Isn't that interesting?

[Pallas180]

184. KGFNALLY-that version is refined and different from the original

PNAC white paper I read. Yes, it is interesting.

[DavidFL]

141. No, I don't think it's too "tinfoil" to think that.

I have been thinking virtually the same thing for some time now with the information from all 7 of these threads. Cheney, Halliburton and whoever, and whatever, else is involved in this network profit from the illicit sale of nuclear components, which looks like this mostly went through Pakistan and begins to shed a lot of light on why this administration has been looking the other way while these sales have been going on and why it buddied up with Musharref after Sept. 11th (this also partly begs the question of whether we have the makings of another Hussein or bin Laden in Musharref and will he be recycled as a convenient enemy of the U.S. in the future when it becomes politically expedient?).

I think it's more than coincidental that the countries this network sells these components to happen to be all those slated for "regime change" by the PNAC. In other words, my theory runs along the Hegelian Dialectic mentioned in one of the earlier threads: Cheney, Halliburton, et al., help to set up the problems through illicit arms sales to countries that the PNAC thinks the U.S. needs to take care of, Bush declares war on these countries to solve "the problem" created by this network, and Halliburton is further enriched by receiving contracts for services during and after the wars. In sum, these war profiteers are making money on generating conflict, war itself, and rebuilding afterwards, and everybody else involved with the PNAC gets what they want. Likudniks like Wolfowitz and Feith ensure Israel remains the dominant military power in the region, other war profiteers like Perle make obscene amounts of money in consulting work helping his friends obtain government contracts, and the Dominisists/Evangelicals get their 21st Century "holy war" and Armogeddon, etc., etc.

[Pallas180]

147. DAVIDFL -"great minds travel the same paths" - I just posted

the same thing in blunter terms.

Welcome to Plame !

:hi:

[leesa]

231. They didn't get "lucky" with 9-11. They worked hard to achieve it.

Why would they do all this devious work and then rely on chance for their 9-11 event?
The timing was perfect. It allowed them to launch their attack against Afghanistan, who had done nothing to us, right on schedule as predeicted in July 2001. The oil/gas pipeline Ken Lay and Cheney so desperately wanted went through. The Asian market was theirs.

The timing of 9-11 also conveniently fell early in the admin so they could enact the process of shutting down the constitution and looting the treasury thoroughly.

[donkeyotay]

239. Sept 11th was timely and necessary

Yes Leesa, it is beyond chalking up another fortunate coincidence for the republican crime family. I often imagine how it would have gone for Bush if Enron had gone belly up while his approval ratings were low, the stock market was already sinking, the California energy fraud was fresh, and the creep wasn't a "War President." Wonder if he'd have gotten away with mumbling about not really knowing Kenny. The country (and Enron)was in crisis already; Sept 11th just let them change the terms.

[Pallas180]

244. Welcome Leesa. The timing would appear that way.

:hi:

[robertpaulsen]

116. Hi Pallas! As X in JFK would say, "You're closer than you think".

Not that I'm any kind of spook, of course. But you are focusing on the facts and asking the questions that the Bush misadministration would rather see swept under the rug.

Another question I thought might be pertinent is why did the US not institute a policy change with Pakistan over A.Q. Khan's nuclear black market? I'm not sure if anyone has posted this before, but here's a nugget of dirt on a link between Cheney and Khan:


Cheney helped cover-up Pakistani nuclear proliferation in '89 so US could sell country fighter jets

When Pakistan's clandestine program involving its top nuclear scientist selling rogue nations, such as Iran and North Korea, blueprints for building an atomic bomb was uncovered last month, the world's leaders waited, with baited breath to see what type of punishment George W. Bush would inflict upon Pakistan's President Pervez Musharaff. Bush has, after all, spent his entire term in office talking tough about countries and dictators that conceal weapons of mass destruction and even tougher on individuals who supply rogue nations and terrorists with the means to build WMD. For all intents and purposes, Pakistan and Musharraf fit that description.

Remember, Bush accused Iraq of harboring a cache of WMD, which was the primary reason he gave for the United States launching a preemptive strike on that country a year ago, and also claimed that Iraq may have given its WMD to al-Qaeda terrorists and/or Syria, weapons that, Bush said, could be used to attack the U.S. Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney and top members of the administration reacted with shock when they found out that Abdul Qadeer Khan, Pakistan's top nuclear scientist, spent the past 15 years selling outlaw nations nuclear technology and equipment. So it was sort of a surprise when Bush, upon finding out about Khan's proliferation of nuclear technology, let Pakistan off with a slap on the wrist. But it was all an act. In fact, it was actually a coverup designed to shield Cheney because he knew about the proliferation for more than a decade and did nothing to stop it.

Like the terrorist attacks on 9-11, the Bush administration had mountains of evidence on Pakistan's sales of nuclear technology and equipment to nations vilified by the U.S.?nations that are considered much more of a threat than Iraq?but turned a blind eye to the threat and allowed it to happen. In 1989, the year Khan first started selling nuclear secrets on the black-market; Richard Barlow, a young intelligence analyst working for the Pentagon prepared a shocking report for Cheney, who was then secretary of defense under the Bush I administration: Pakistan built an atomic bomb and was selling its nuclear equipment to countries the U.S. said was sponsoring terrorism. But Barlow's findings, as reported in a January 2002 story in Mother Jones magazine, were "politically inconvenient."

"A finding that Pakistan possessed a nuclear bomb would have triggered a congressionally mandated cutoff of aid to the country, a key ally in the CIA's efforts to support Afghan rebels fighting a pro-Soviet government. It also would have killed a $1.4-billion sale of F-16 fighter jets to Islamabad," Mother Jones reported. Ironically, Pakistan, critics say, was let off the hook last month so the U.S. could use its borders to hunt for al-Qaeda leader and alleged 9-11 mastermind Osama bin Laden. Cheney dismissed Barlow's report because he desperately wanted to sell Pakistan the F-16 fighter planes. Several months later, a Pentagon official was told by Cheney to downplay Pakistan's nuclear capabilities when he testified on the threat before Congress. Barlow complained to his bosses at the Pentagon and was fired.

http://www.pakistan-facts.com/article.php/2004031621042158

I'm not the only one thinking that this Khan/Cheney quid pro quo has some connection with Valerie Plame. I'm not familiar with the site I'm about to post, I can't ascertain the validity, but I found it very interesting:


FULL ACCOUNT OF A GOVERNMENT SCANDAL Sent by FBI Source

snip

This seems to be the way it shapes up so far:

(1) Qadeer Khan discloses ( via Bush and FACTION 2 directions ) ?a tip of the iceberg? -- his own words! -- of a widespread nuclear components supply network spanning many legitimate corporations and nations, including Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, the Saudis, Israel, UK, US, etc.;

This relates to nuclear weapons, but could it suggest that similar corporate/intel profiteers would also look forward and establish a similar bio-weapons and chemical weapons network to enhance ?profitability? and ?customer base??

If so, then I would expect many of the same intel ops would also act as ?sales reps? for those other WMD ?products? as well, since it would make sense that they are targeting the same ?consumers? and ?distribution networks?.

snip

Qadeer Khan?s disclosure exposes this FACTION 1 weapons network to light. A CIA-counterintel op ( Plame?s? FACTION 2 influenced? ) AND a MI-6 FACTION 1 counterintel op would certainly have reason to know many, or all of the actors and connections involved in such a global WMD network.

(2) Iranian-CIA agent ?Zakeri? then testifies ( within 24 hours?! ) in Germany that he told his CIA contacts ( again, most likely FACTION 1 controlled ) that 9/11 terror was going to happen, and he says they ?did nothing?. Did Plame?s CIA counter-intel network know of Iranian-CIA asset Zakeri? Somebody at CIA should have. Was Zakeri actually an operative in the Plame CIA-counterintel network? Possibly.

http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?read=44311

I hope I'm not printing a red herring here. Again, I'm unfamiliar with this site and cannot verify the source or validity. It could be RW disinfo, but may get us closer to the truth. It's worth investigating. Anyone know who this Zakeri is? I'm gonna keep searching.

[robertpaulsen]

117. Uh...this FBI source is a little wacky upon further inspection.

Not only does he draw a Saddam/Bin Laden link saying that the WMD stockpiles were transfered out of Iraq to over thirty different terrorist groups all over the world, but also says al Qaeda was responsible FOR BLOWING UP THE SPACE SHUTTLE COLUMBIA!

Sorry, I'll try to inspect a little closer before I post. We'll see if this Khan/Plame connection bears any fruit.

[robertpaulsen]

124. Anyone here have a subscription to Salon?

Came across this site googling "Khan, Plame" but I cannot get the full article:

http://archive.salon.com/opinion/right_hook/2004/02/11/intelligence/index_np.html

If anyone reads this full article, please snip out any pertinent info and post it here!

[TacticalPeek]

148. Mostly Khan, the Plame was incidental, searchwise.

You can go to your Salon link above, then click on the ad (ACT04 now, not a bad ad) for a free day pass and see the whole article.

It is several different bits, including a funny one on Bill O'Lielly 'apologizing' about trusting bushco on WMD (still blames not aWol, but Tenet > Clinton - surprise).


Here's some of the Khan bit:


Attention WMD shoppers: Welcome to "nuclear Wal-Mart"

Peter Brookes, a senior fellow at the conservative Heritage Foundation think tank and a regular columnist for the New York Post, is troubled about recent revelations that for years a top Pakistani scientist has been the nexus of the clandestine global nuclear arms bazaar. Brookes calls Pakistan a "troubling strategic partner" in the U.S. fight against terrorism and WMD proliferation. And while he acknowledges the Muslim nation's critical role in that fight, Brookes seems to think that the Bush administration is no longer striking the right political balance with Pakistan's ostensibly Western-friendly president, Gen. Pervez Musharraf.

"Pakistan has become the world's nuclear Wal-Mart. The father of the Pakistani bomb, jetsetter scientist A.Q. Khan, turns out to be the godfather of global nuclear proliferation. Perhaps more than any one person, Khan is responsible for the most egregious string of nuclear-proliferation transactions in recent history -- perhaps ever.

"Khan's televised mea culpa on sharing nuclear technology with Iran, North Korea and Libya is little consolation. Certainly it's not enough to warrant the pardon given by Pakistani President Musharraf. Even more disappointing is Pakistan's refusal to allow an independent probe of Khan's proliferation activity -- or that of others in Pakistan's scientific, intelligence or military circles."

But an independent probe notwithstanding, most analysts already agree Khan couldn't have passed along so many nuclear goodies without the consent of high-level Pakistani military and political leaders. The fallout, Brookes says, now reaches far beyond Pakistan's borders.

(more)

[Pallas180]

149. "Attention WMD shoppers: Welcome to "nuclear Wal-Mart"-

The Motto of Halliburton and Cheney"

slight sardonic grin. wonderful really, if it wasn't so terrible we
could really laugh. A Saturday Night Live skit.

Googling Khan + Halliburton

or Khan + Brown, Root

Or Khan + Carlyle

or Khan + James Baker

or Khan + pappy

might be a fruitful exercise.

[robertpaulsen]

243. Thanks Pallas! That will be my exercise for today.

As well as combos with words like:

WMD CIA BCCI nuclear chemical biological Iran Iraq Syria Libya Pentagon Rumsfeld Wolfowitz Feith...

I'll be the Energizer Bunny of Googling. Fruitful? I'm very hopeful.

Wow, my 1000th post. Nice to reach that number in the service of such a noble cause.

I'll let you know how the search goes, either in this thread or the 8th!

[Pallas180]

144. RP - yes a lot of it certainly does fit in, but the good spooks vs the bad

spooks in the FBI and CIA becomes very confusing to most, I think.

You're onto something.

I didn't want to confuse my "theory post" above, but I also thought:

When Saudi Arabia asked Junior and Company to get out of Saudi Arabia
afer we had built a monstrous and expensive base armed with the newest weaponry - one might call it a home base -why would they do that, when they had wanted US to protect them and their oil fields for years???

The reason given for asking us to vacate was to calm the anti-American element. Hmmm. But if they needed our protection from that very element, WHY would they ask their protector to leave.
BECAUSE they "likely" also received WMD from certain parties.

So now, we can guess, the entire Middle East is armed with illegal components of WMD...supplied by whom?hmmm

And I agree with you ROBERTPAULSEN- it's a great racket. Supply them
with the components, collect payment. Shuttle back and forth between
private employment and government employment, selling WMD for your company's bottom line while a private CEO, earning large bonuses and
deferred "payment" plus increased stock option value, go back into government, create a war on those countries who have the WMD you have sold them, then you have created a situation where your company and the other companies you hold stock in, or which belong to your other associates, can supply the army with munitions, destroy the country you have sold WMD to, and then the very same companies who supplied the munitions for destruction, go in and rebuild the country.

So. Now how many times have you profiteered?
1) illegal selling of WMD
2) earn bonus, increase value of stock options
3) Supply Army Munitions on no bid contracts
4) Rebuild the country on no bid contracts

I'll leave it to someone else familiar with the finances of these transactions to tell us how many billions are profit .

[Pallas180]

145. AND there's one extra bonus. The fundamentalists see their

life's wish come into fruition.

The middle east erupts into all out nuclear war - and they stand
under the mushroom cloud waiting for the return of the Messiah.

[kohodog]

173. But what if they blow it up before he comes back?

No soup for you, W.

[Pallas180]

197. Then they'll spend eternity with Robertson & Falwell-Big Smile on that

grinning.

[Zan_of_Texas]

214. one more way to profit

If you're Halliburton -

5) Halliburton is the world's largest oilfield supply company. They got a contract to put out any oil fires in Iraq when BushCo went in there.

Well, you could also add 6) Price labor costs at X, but hire people from impoverished nations at about 1/10 of that cost.

[robertpaulsen]

248. Whoa Zan! Let me get this straight.

Maybe I'm a little confused, but...

If Halliburton has a contract to put out any oil fires in Iraq, then...

Everytime insurgents blow up a pipeline, Halliburton still profits!

Talk about having your cake and eating it too. Makes me want to vomit.

[robertpaulsen]

241. Current US policy toward Saudi Arabia is WINO

Withdrawal In Name Only!

Every point that you made in this post about Saudi Arabia is illustrated in even greater detail in House of Bush House of Saud. I'm really starting to get a sense of the almighty influence of BCCI in this sick marriage. I wish Craig Unger knew about this thread. Maybe he's here incognito. :)

I don't believe the US is really pulling our troops out of Saudi Arabia. Perhaps some soldiers are being shuttled around here and there, but the bases are not being dismantled, are they? With the significant security crisis that the House of Saud faces from Islamic militants biting the hand that feeds them, any imminent threat will be dealt with by US troops. Much to the delight of Dominion Theologists and the military-industrial complex!

[starroute]

155. Pakistan/BCCI may turn out to be the key

In 1979, the largest CIA operation in the world began working through Pakistani military intelligence to support the Afghan resistance to the Soviet occupation.

As well as supplying arms, this CIA operation also involved massively pumping up opium production in the area: "In 1979 Pakistan had a small localized opium trade and produced no heroin whatsoever. Yet by 1981, according to U.S. Attorney General William French Smith, Pakistan had emerged as the world's leading supplier of heroin. It became the supplier of 60% of U.S. heroin supply and it captured a comparable section of the European market. ... Who were the manufacturers? They were all either military factions connected with Pakistan intelligence, CIA allies, or Afghan resistance groups connected with the CIA and Pakistan intelligence.

http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/heroin/mccoy1.htm

BCCI, which had been founded in Pakistan in the 1970's, became the financial conduit for the CIA's drug-smuggling and money-laundering activities. And according to an article I just found at a British site, BCCI was involved in Pakistan's nuclear proliferation as well:

"The notorious Bank of Credit and Commerce International (BCCI) went bankrupt after it's involvement in massive fraud and the laundering of drug money was revealed in 1992. Now it has been linked to funding Pakistan's nuclear programme which also involved the export of nuclear technology to much of the 'Axis of Evil' - Iran, Libya and North Korea. Saddam's regime rejected offers of sales of nuclear technology and know-how from Pakistan in the 90s - but it's earlier nuclear programme, largely defunct from the mid-90s on, received funding in the form of letters of credit from BCCI.

"Senator John Kerry, the current favourite to be the American Democratic party's Presidential Candidate in November, chaired a US Senate Committee on Foreign Relations inquiry into BCCI. It's 1992 report stated that BCCI's involvement in Pakistan's nuclear programme required further investigation. The Bank's BCCI Foundation - supposedly set up to promote development and eliminate third world poverty - funded the establishment of the Khan Institute for Science and Technology - which was headed by Dr. Abdul Qadeer Khan - the Pakistani nuclear scientist who headed Pakistan's nuclear weapons programme and has admitted involvement in exporting nuclear secrets. In 1991 the Times newspaper quoted an un-named businessmen as saying 'BCCI is functioning as the owners' representative for Pakistan's nuclear-bomb project.'

<snip>

"The CIA and ISI were also involved both in organising the funding and training of Osama Bin Laden and other mujahedin in the Afghan Soviet War - and also in the rise of the Taliban (also see off-line source 4 below). This raises other questions. Did the CIA actively promote nuclear proliferation through BCCI and the ISI in the same way that they promoted the drugs trade and the rise of the mujahedin through it ? And if so why? Could it be that some in American and British intelligence and governments wanted to create a pretext for military intervention or the threat of it ? If this seems far-fetched consider that current US Secretary of State for Defense Donald Rumsfeld - who today condemns North Korea as a member of the Axis of Evil - was a non executive director of ABB from 1990 to 2001 - an engineering firm based in Switzerland. In 2000 ABB won a $200mn contract to design and provide components for nuclear reactors in North Korea. Similarly subsidiaries of Halliburton Oil - former CEO Vice President Dick Cheney - operated in Iraq and Libya until at least February 2000 while US and UN sanctions were in place (also see off-line source 5) - and continue to operate in Iran - another member of the 'Axis of Evil' which similarly has US sanctions on it."

http://www.friendsoftheheroes.co.uk/archive/issue69.html#1

[Pallas180]

161. STAR- HOLY DOO-DOO! What a find! Rumsfeld-Nuclear Supplier Too!

consider that current US Secretary of State for Defense Donald Rumsfeld - who today condemns North Korea as a member of the Axis of Evil - was a non executive director of ABB from 1990 to 2001 - an engineering firm based in Switzerland. In 2000 ABB won a $200mn contract to design and provide components for nuclear reactors in North Korea. Similarly subsidiaries of Halliburton Oil - former CEO Vice President Dick Cheney - operated in Iraq and Libya until at least February 2000 while US and UN sanctions were in place (also see off-line source 5) - and continue to operate in Iran - another member of the 'Axis of Evil' which similarly has US sanctions on it."

[Pallas180]

162. ARMING THE AXIS OF EVIL-BRITISH & AMERICAN INTEL-READ THIS

link from Starroute's post.

Unpluckingbelievable !!!

Arming the Axis of Evil
Are British and American Intelligence involved in promoting nuclear proliferation?

http://www.friendsoftheheroes.co.uk/archive/issue69.html#1

[shraby]

166. If John Kerry chaired the committee

who investigated BCCI, he must know all this stuff. Is he going to do anything with it if elected?

[Pallas180]

168. Well, you could write him all of this and ask him? not kidding.

.

[Wilber_Stool]

170. Me either

And you can ask him for me WHAT THE FUCK!

[Pallas180]

185. No no. We can't talk cheney talk. he's a bum. we're not.

:hopping:

heck, I forgot how to make the hopping froggy. :) duh

[starroute]

195. A wealth of information on Pakistani nuclear proliferation at this link:

(Unfortunately, the URL includes semi-colons, so I can't post it here as a clickable link. Copy and paste it in your browser and then put "www." back at the beginning to get to the site.)

bharat-rakshak.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=000025;p=

It's the message board for something calling itself "The Consortium of Indian Military Websites." Last February, when the news about Pakistani nuclear proliferation came out, they were going over the topic at great length, with many links and extensive quotes from articles. I've only read a bit of the first page (out of nine), so far, but I thought I'd toss the link out here for general scrutiny.

It includes discussion of US knowledge of the situation (and why the US might not have wished to stop it), of the role of BCCI, and of general matters of covert arms dealing. There's no way I can comb through it all myself and follow up all the links in detail -- so I hope some of the other investigation geeks here will have a look as well.

[starroute]

207. Dawood Ibrahim, Indian crime lord and global terrorist

This is one name I picked up from that Indian message board. I don't know *where* this guy fits into the picture, but he seems to be important -- or, at the very least, to be a prime example of how much crap Pakistan has been getting away with.

http://www.saag.org/papers9/paper818.html

"A press release of the US Department said: 'Dawood Ibrahim, an Indian crime lord, has found common cause with Al Qaida, sharing his smuggling routes with the terror syndicate and funding attacks by Islamic extremists aimed at destabilizing the Indian government. He is wanted in India for the 1993 Bombay Exchange bombings and is known to have financed the activities of Lashkar-e-Tayyiba (Army of the Righteous), a group designated by the United States in October 2001 and banned by the Pakistani Government -- who also froze their assets -- in January 2002.'

<snip>

"Before March 1993, the Dawood Ibrahim group, which indulges in large-scale smuggling, money-laundering and other criminal activities, was operating from Dubai. In March 1993, this group organised at the instance of the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) of Pakistan a series of explosions directed at important economic targets in Mumbai---such as the local stock exchange, which is the biggest in India, a local hotel for tourists run by the Air India etc.

<snip>

"After carrying out the explosions, the perpetrators escaped to Pakistan, some via Dubai and some via Kathmandu, and were given sanctuary in Karachi by the ISI. When the Govt. of India took up with the Dubai authorities the question of the involvement of Dawood Ibrahim, the Dubai authorities pressured him to leave their territory. He took shelter in Karachi and has been living there since then along with some of the perpetrators, who have been given Pakistani passports under different names. Repeated requests by the Govt. of India to Islamabad for arresting and extraditing/deporting them to India have been turned down by Pakistan, which denies their presence in Pakistani territory.

"In Pakistan, Dawood managed to establish another huge empire, comprising both legitimate and illegitimate businesses. In fact, the last few years have witnessed Dawood emerge as the don of Karachi. Dawood and his men have made heavy investments in prime properties in Karachi and Islamabad and are major players in the Karachi bourse and in the parallel credit system business--hundi. Dawood is also said to have rescued Pakistan's Central Bank, which was in crisis at one point, by providing a huge dollar loan. His businesses include gold and drug smuggling. The gang is also allegedly heavily involved in (cricket) match-fixing."


http://www.pakistan-facts.com/article.php/20021213163125719

"As compared to paltry budgets of Indian intelligence agencies, Pakistan's all-powerful Inter Services Intelligence (ISI) has billions of dollars at its disposal and a significant contribution -- of $1 billion -- comes from underworld don Dawood Ibrahim every year. Well-placed sources in the Vajpayee government disclosed to The Tribune here today that Dawood generate this whopping amount through narcotics as he operated and controlled the entire drug mafia on behalf of the ISI.

"Dawood's massive narcotics empire is not confined to Pakistan and Afghanistan and stretches across the Mediterranean, Europe, the Americas and African countries like Yemen and Somalia. According to classified information, the D Company generates several billion dollars annually from the narcotics trade and in return the ISI allows him to keep a substantial portion of the narco-dollars, besides giving him political patronage."


http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl1903/19030300.htm

"PAKISTAN'S police services insist that they just cannot find Dawood Ibrahim. However, oddly enough, until recently in Mumbai businessmen faced with extortion demands and journalists seeking interviews found that he and his top lieutenants were just a phone call away.

"When a Karachi residents' organisation protested against the encroachment of public space by Ibrahim's top gun Abdul Razzak Memon, better known as Tiger Memon, it was promptly asked to mind its own business. 'The ISI (Inter-Services Intelligence) told us it is a Dawood Ibrahim building,' a member of the residents' organisation told Karachi-based journalist Ghulam Husnain. 'They said this is a man who has done a lot for Pakistan, so we should not raise our voices,' the member added.

<snip>

"Evidence of the mafia's key role in sponsoring and funding terrorism continues to trickle in. Consider, for example, the kidnapping of Kolkata businessman Partha Roy Burman in July 2001. Burman was released for a ransom of Rs.4 crores, which was paid by his family through a hawala dealer to a recipient in Dubai. Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) officials handling the case found that the kidnapping was carried out through a bizarre network of underworld figures and terrorists of the Islamic Right. Dubai-based mafioso Aftab Ansari, once a resident of Lalapur in Varanasi, is believed to have hired members of Pakistan-based terrorist groups to execute the operation. Ansari, who has claimed responsibility for the attack on the United States consulate in Kolkata, is believed to fly regularly to Karachi, where he maintains close contact with the Ibrahim group."


See also:
http://www.pakistan-facts.com/article.php/20030318221446642
http://in.rediff.com/news/2003/sep/21dawood.htm
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/FB27Df02.html

[robertpaulsen]

255. Hey starroute! Thumbs up, way up!

Just wanted to let you know how much I appreciate your work exploring the Pakistan angle. Hell, all the angles you're exploring are important pieces in the puzzle. Great job!

[robertpaulsen]

107. Hi Tactical Peak! Thanks for bringing those posts to this thread.

And that's a great contribution illustrating the parallels with that Vietnam quote. What is really a scary prospect is that if you take that philosophy, and apply it to the events in Vietnam:

"A business must, over time, make a profit. That's just the way it is.

Also, a business must grow. Especially a large business, and over time it will either eat or be eaten. That's just the way it is.

So what happens when the business is War? It still must make a profit, and it still must grow."

Then it creates a financial justification for expanding the war into Cambodia. Business may have been good in 1968 but it only got better in 1970.

Now think about the situation we're going through now, and apply Pallas180's theory to the business of war, and I think it's obvious that after the election, Iran or Syria will be the new Cambodia. It's not even contingent on the results of the election. Bush will create a December crisis just to hand Kerry the worst possible mess on January 20 and say, "Go ahead. Fix it."

The Plame scandal shows that they are not only criminal, they are petty and vindictive when things don't go their way.

[shraby]

111. If Bush expands the war

into another country and also loses the election, the war profiteers will still win. Kerry will have to do work to extract us, but meanwhile the money keeps rolling in the "right" direction. Don't know about everybody else, but I feel ill.

[robertpaulsen]

122. Yes. The more countries "liberated", the bigger the cash flow.

That's what I got out of watching F911 and reading House of Bush House of Saud. If they're not holding the reins of political power directly, they're still in the money. They never should have been allowed to run for office in the first place with this conflict of interests.

[Pallas180]

150. SHRABY it's citizens like us who will pull this country out of the fire

with our letter writing and telephone calls.

(32 letters today to contacts to spread the letter writing around)

We're not the only ones thinking this way. I was out for lunch and
saw a middle aged couple + walk in with 6 inch big Kerry Edwards buttons. They were visiting from New York. I applauded them...and we began to talk. Told them all about our Plame letter writing campaign.

Husband and wife both said, they never in their lives thought they would see this happening in this country. And gave me their e mail so
that they could send letters.

We may have to work fast, but silly me, I have faith that we are going to throw a BIG BIG monkey wrench into the works of the cabal

WRITE SENATOR JAY ROCKEFELLER ABOUT PLAME TO LET HIM KNOW WE KNOW AND SUPPORT HIM. The pentagon attacked him today about his claim they have an illegitimate CIA wannabe working under Feith.

AND WRITE REPUBLICAN SENATOR PAT ROBERTS. POOR OLD MAN HAS TO KNOW HE CANT CONTINUE TO COVER FOR THE RETHUGLICAN NEO CONS.



Anna Pallas

[TacticalPeek]

132. Thank youuu, rp. And about that financial aspect.

That year, 1968, I remember a pretty Fortune magazine article with nice graphs showing Peak Oil in 1980 or so. Might have been 1984. They thought there was oil in the China Sea, but did not strike it until 74-75.

I also recall around then that Mobil Oil (Rockefeller) was sucking in about $1,000,000 an hour supplying US forces in Nam with fuel. Or maybe that was per day profit; pre-1990 is not so googlable, nor my sotted brain cells. Just think of it as an ungodly, steaming huge pile of money.

[Pallas180]

151. TACTICAL - I think Rockefeller is Standard Oil and I also recall

that after Nixon declared "victory with honor" ahem - some time later
a 1/4 inch paragraph on page 85 or so of the New York Times announced
"Exxon had been awarded the oil rights off Vietnam".

Darn, this group is really in tune with each other.

Shall we give ourselves a name??

and it can't be DU anything.

Let's play the same game . Did you know the original name of the war
on Iraq was not "operation free iraq." OFI

It was "operation iraqi liberation. OIL

then they changed it, but their first true intentions showed fairly
blatantly didn't it?

Let's see : Citizens Loving America's Constitution = CLAC
" " " MOST = CLAM

?????

[TacticalPeek]

158. Many octopi.

Trustbusters: A history


In 1910 Mr Rockefeller's net worth was equal to nearly 2.5% of the whole US economy, the equivalent of nearly $250bn in today's terms, or at least twice as much as Bill Gates.

The opposition to the trusts, particularly among farmers who protested against the high cost of rail transport to take their products to the cities, led to the passage of the first anti-trust law - The Sherman Act - in 1890.

But it was more than 20 years later, after a campaign led by 'muckraking' journalists, when Standard Oil was brought before the courts.

The historic 1911 decision broke up Rockefeller's company into six main entities, including Standard Oil of New Jersey (Esso, now Exxon), Standard Oil of New York (Socony, now Mobil), Standard Oil of Ohio, and Standard Oil of Indiana (now Amoco, part of BP) and Standard Oil of California (now Chevron) - and opened the way for new entrants like Gulf and Texaco, which discovered oil in Texas.

But in the oil business even the "Seven Sisters" turned out be marriage prospects.

First Chevron acquired Gulf in 1984 in what was then the largest corporate merger in US history.

Then, in an ironic twist, the 1990s has seen the oil industry come back together, with Exxon merging with Mobil, another part of the old Standard Oil empire, to form a company twice as big as its nearest rival - BP Amoco, which also consists of two old Standard Oil companies (Amoco and Standard Oil of Ohio) and has been trying to merge with a third (Arco, formerly Atlantic Petroleum of Pennsylvania).

The three big oil companies now control almost as much of the market as Rockefeller did.

But the blocking of the deal to give BP Amoco control of America's largest oil field in Alaska, by acquiring Arco, shows that a backlash is beginning to bite.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The Huuuge Recent Consolidation in the Big Oil Bidness is, like media performance, one of those things the media covers as a last resort.

Like, Lynn Cheney has been doing wicked things with the seven sisters, up to their teeth, which are "puffed and rounded, like tiny, ivory pillows".


:evilgrin:



Oh, and it was "peace with honor". (Or not.)

[Pallas180]

164. TACTICAL - WAHOO what a hoot! How do you come up with

this weird stuff.

My My Mrs. Cheney. How come the news media don't publicize that!!!!

What a find.

[merh]

159. Operation Free the United States - OFUS

That is much more appropriate

OR

Operation Free the World - OFW

OR

Operation Freedom from Corporate Greed - OFCG

OR

Operation Freedom -- OF

[Pallas180]

167. MERH - It usually spells a word with meaning - so its hard to

get it right.

CLAM - not great

COFUS - Citizen Operation to Free the Untied States - but that would
sound revolutionary rather than Mom & Apple Pie - see what I mean.

Keep working it. :)

hmmmmm

Citizen's for America's Liberation from Military Industrial Complex

CALMIC

[shraby]

186. How about

CUSS Citizens for United States Sanity.

[Pallas180]

193. SHRABY - getting close... Citizens for United States _ _ _ _

SAnity

Safety

Security

STABILITY



cITIZERNS for RESTORING UNNITED STATES ___________ ????? Honesty?

CRUS H

CRUSH - too militaristic????

CRUS ?

[shraby]

196. CRUSH

Citizens for Restoring United States Honor.

[Pallas180]

198. YESSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!

[shraby]

201. Works for me.

:bounce:

Pallas read my post #200

[Pallas180]

203. You genius you! Wanna ask the rest of what they think of

C.R.U.S.H. like ALERT WE HAVE A NAME ? your post ok?

ooooo gosh i luv it!

[merh]

187. I like OFUS - it is not a war lords cry -- it is a gentle charge

and it clearly references the weed (oaf) that would be king!

[Pallas180]

194. Yeah :) & then they'll add do for doofus. we'll be called doofus?

ha ha ha ha

[RebelYell]

16. Wow!

I'm rather new here, but all I can say is WOW!

Thank you all - I was beginning to think I needed medication or something - that I was becoming paranoid - I appreciate the validation of my suspicions on the Plame matter.

Can someone tell me the name of the other thread where "Wilson is fighting back"? Thanks.

[shraby]

24. Follow the links at the opening of this thread

back.

[hedda_foil]

17. Turning and turning in a widening gyre ....

Back to the strange case of the shared criminal attorney, from the Beat Bush Blog"

http://home.earthlink.net/~fsrhine/2004.07.01_arch.html#1089746945234

Other sources paint Sharp as an excellent trial lawyer, with a white collar crime practice, a private person but one whose accomplishments are well known to older Washington, DC, lawyers. Articles in the New York Times on June 3 by Eric Lichtblau and David E. Sanger and on June 5 by Michael Janofsky, plus a transcript of the June 3 CNN's American Morning with senior legal analyst Jim Toobin, paint the following portrait of Sharp's legal career:

He began practicing law in Navy JAG and also served as assistant US District Attorney for the District of Columbia. In about four decades of law practice, he has represented Richard Nixon friend Bebe Rebozo, Nixon advisor Jeb Stuart McGruder during the Watergate scandal, and Gen. Richard V. Secord during Iran-Contra. Sharp has also numbered former Enron CEO Kenneth Lay and author Clifford Irving among his clients. Maybe that's where the estate planning comes in. Despite the list of well-known Republican clients, his political donations go mostly to Democrats, including the presidential campaign of Sen. John Kerry.

Janofsky's article quotes attorney Richard Hibey, a friend of Sharp's describing Sharp as " . . . publicity averse. To do the kind of work we do, it's important to stay out of the limelight."

As to what "kind of work do," Ramares, after discussing Hibey's work representing the likes of Ferdinand Marcos, Israeli spy Jonathan Pollard, and Iran-Contra figure (and former CIA espionage chief) Clair George, quotes University of Illinois Professor of Law Francis Boyle, who "wonders if Sharp has a very special type of law practice":

"There is sort of a CIA bar out there as it were," Boyle says. "That is, lawyers who have worked for the CIA in the past or have been CIA agents, either covertly or overtly or whatever. And oftentimes, they are the ones called upon to engage in legal matters related to the CIA, either when they are defending a CIA agent or when the CIA is somewhat involved.

"It's sort of a very small clique of lawyers there in Washington, D.C. with expertise when it comes to the CIA, covert operations and things of that matter.

"One thing we know about both Presidents Bush is that they are CIA. President Bush, Sr., of course, Director of the CIA . . . As for President Bush, Jr., we do know, it was reported in the New York Times, that Bush Sr. sent him out to work for a CIA front organization for a summer. I think it was up in Alaska. So it does not surprise me that Bush Jr. went to a lawyer, an unknown lawyer, who represented Secord, who again is probably tied into the CIA somewhere.

"And, as you know, this investigation does involve the leaking and public identification of the name of a CIA agent, which is a felony under the United States law. So the CIA is shot through this whole thing and it wouldn't surprise me if Bush got a lawyer who might have ties to the CIA."

<more>

W.B. Yeats, The Second Coming

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all convictions, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

[H2O Man]

20. Thank you

for Yeats. That is a fantastic poem ..... it's long been one of my favorites. This thread has a lot of class, with contributions like that.

[tableturner]

28. About the 2 week grand jury delay.....why?

I don't think the delay can be centered around the court case with the journalists. The reason I say this is due to the fact that the court case with the journalists will not be decided until well after two weeks from now. Thus, nothing in the way of info from the journalists could possibly have been received, nor processed.

What else is the reason for the delay?

On edit: Are you sure it is 2 weeks? I thought I read a month.

[H2O Man]

34. "the court case with the journalists....

will not be decided until well after two weeks from now." I'm not sure what you mean?

I believe that a couple journalists are testifying in front of the Plame grand jury. There may also be a few other leads that needed to be examined.

Keep in mind the comment by a "senior White House official" who was quoted in an article by James Harding in Financial Times: "We have rolled the earthmovers in over this one." (12-5-03) The extent of the republican cover-up should not be underestimated.

I've mentioned that on 3-8-03, there was a meeting in VP cheney's office. The goal was to assemble material to attack and destroy Ambassador Wilson, if needed, because they knew he had proof that the Niger-Iraq uranium claim was bullshit. Remember, this is 4 months before Wilson's NYT op-ed exposing the president as a liar.

Who was at this meeting? Cheney, Libby, and Newt Gingrich, along with other high-ranking republicans. Hmmm .... starting to sound like a meeting of cheney's little known "parallel national security office" .... that is little known in part because thereis no congressional oversite .... It includes some of those who were among the signers of the Project for the New American Century who signed the infamous 1998 letter urging President Clinton to invade Iraq.

It's a tough case. But we're going to win. I heard that it will go until the end of July. I will not be shocked if it goes even a few weeks longer. I think that we should use this time to begin our own media campaign, to counter the lies and deceit coming out of the White House.

[Me.]

29. 100 Letters A Week

H20Man - When you first spoke of 100 letters a week, I thought I want to, but how do I carve out the time? Then I thought, what if I make a firm commitment to writing 2 letters a day for at least 5 days a week? That was manageable and I could do that. Then I realized that if I did that, and I am, that that would be 10% of the total. And I'm sure that at least nine other people are writing 2 letters a day, to say the least. I then realized why you've brought up Gandhi, aside from the non-violence issue. Big changes do start with small beginnings, such as salt or 2 letters a day.

[shraby]

31. You could copy/paste them into

a new email as long as the subject was the same and just change the address.

[burrowowl]

36. Welcome to DU, Me,!

:hi:

Even a letter a day is doing great!

[Me.]

40. Thanks for the Welcome

Such a wonderful place to be.

[H2O Man]

37. Right!

A couple days ago, one of our friends wrote that this seems a special group of people, with individual talents that add up to a sum greater than the parts. And that there was a growing feeling that we might be able to play a significant role in part of this national movement towards democracy.

It made me happy to read that, just as it is great to read whatyou have just added.

One of Gandhi's quotes that comes to mind goes like this: "If we shatter the chains of egotism, and melt into the ocean of humanity, we share its dignity. To feel that we are something apart is to set up a barrier between God and ourselves; to cease feeling that we are something is to become one with God. A drop in the ocean partakes of the greatness of its parent, although it is unconscious of it. But it dries up as soon as it enters upon an existance independant of the ocean."

I think that we are partaking in the goodness of a larger movement. Doing the right thing in and of itself isto play a significant role in this larger entity. But the truth is that until we have the self discipline to have 100 people write 5 letters each, we would not realistically be capable of doing anything more important. We are an acorn that poses the potential to become an oak tree.

[ralps]

205. H20 Man Is it alright if I

copy this message and e-mail it to some of my friends and family. It really is fantastic.
ralps

[H2O Man]

219. oh, of course.

I think people should read the entire seven threads, but feel free to use any part of it.

[calimary]

86. About that "100 letters" ... This quote is well-worth remembering.

"IF YOU REALLY WANT TO DO SOMETHING...make a phone call or send a paper letter. E-mails are quick and cheap and don't carry the weight of a phone call or a PAPER LETTER. Paul Begala says a hundred paper letters would change the direction of a news program." – DUer grasswire, 5/20/04

[shraby]

30. I certainly wouldn't want to be

in Cheney's shoes right now with the U.S. and also the French breathing down his neck. No wonder he's testy. Ah, well...if you want to play the game, you often get the name. Wonder how he looks in wider stripes instead of pin-stripes.

[shraby]

39. If Sibel Edmonds testimony gets

opened up I wonder how much it will play into the Plame investigation.

[Pallas180]

60. he-he. good one Schraby. He's in a tough position. If he resigns

he is open to the criminal charges. If he stays we will make an uproar. If dimson is involved, he can't pardon him If Hastert pardons, we'll be demanding impeachment.

cornered cobras - that's when they strike.

Rockefeller's words ring in the ears.

Dimson is losing it, as I think you mentioned.

CNN played a tape of his saying in a campaign speech today ( in Michigan I think)

"America is safer because of the war on Iraq,

12 TIMES in 32 minutes.


He adheres to Goebbels theory: If you repeat a lie often enough people believe it.

[Pallas180]

51. The poem for our times. n/t

.

[Pallas180]

59. Hedda - Eye opening find on Attorney Sharp - thanks - the

machinations of that city and its agencies are beyond anyone's imagination.

[coeur_de_lion]

43. H2O, I've got my letters all ready to go!

Thanks so much for giving us that great idea! What would we do without you?

Did you send out your letters like this one you pasted a couple of threads ago?

Dear _________;

I am writing to express my concerns about on-going efforts to discredit Ambassador Joseph Wilson. In his NYT Op-Ed article "What I Didn't Find In Africa," Wilson exposed a claim by President Bush in his 2003 State of the Union Address to be untrue. Since that time, the White House has been involved in an effort to destroy Wilson's reputation, which included exposing his wife as a CIA operative.

In John Dean's review of Wilson's book (NYT Book Review; 5-23-04; pg9) he documents that two days after the op-ed article ran, journalist Robert Novak was telling people that Wilson's wife Valerie Plame was a CIS "weapons of mass destruction specialist."

Novak exposed Plame's identity in a 7-14-03 column. He sourced his story to two "senior administration officials." These two senior White House officials had lobbied at least six journalists to expose Plame in what Dean calls a "you-hurt-us-we-will-hurt-you warning" to those tempted to expose administration "misinformation."

When Wilson appeared on MSNBC's "Countdown," host Keith Olbermann held up three identical e-mails from the White House. Olbermann explained their intent was to discredit Wilson with their "talking points."

Wilson has noted that Sandy Berger, President Clinton's national security advisor pointed out that since the Bush people never back down, the fact that they had admitted an error after the op-ed article indicated "they must have something more important to protect." (The Politics of Truth, by Wilson; pg4)

Joseph Klein's 7-5-04 article in Time (Plenty More to Swear About; pg 21) reveals that Plame was "active in a sting operation involving the trafficking of WMD components" when her identity was exposed by the White House. "Only a high-ranking official could have had access to the knowledge that Plame was on the pay-roll," an intelligence source told Klein.

There is clearly more to this story than the White House and senate republicans are willing to tell the public. What investigation by Plame needed to be derailed by the White House? I hope that national leaders and the media will focus attention on this important issue.

Sincerely,

[H2O Man]

45. Great ! Very impressive!

Yes, I've been busy on this end. I have several other circles of associates that I am encouraging, too.

I think that it's great that a group of people who participate on this forum, that is considered to be "the far left" by many, and even "the extreme left" by others, are taking up a cause that is actually not left or right, nor liberal or conservative. It's patriotic. And it's gutsy.

We all know that there are other interests that read things like DU. We've seen a few shadows pass this series of threads. But what can they say? Is Sean Hannity going to go on the air waves and have a hissy fit? Will Robert Novak try to expose us?

As always, I thank you for your kind words. Yet I am fully aware that I am part of something bigger here. And I'm proud to be taking part in this.

[calimary]

90. It's rather obvious that you (and others) have been busy on this score.

I noticed it myself on Monday, when I tried to call my Senators using the TOLL FREE number (check my sig line below). MANY times you could not get through. MANY times the line just rang and rang and rang and rang and rang before one of the operators picked it up. Once, it actually rang and rang and rang and rang and rang and then finally disconnected entirely. MANY times, when an operator did pick up, the offices I asked for (those of the members of the Senate Intel Committee), THEIR lines were also busy and I was asked to call back later.

I have been using that number for a couple of years now, or so (however long I've had it), and I have NEVER, repeat, NEVER found it to be that busy before. Even lately when we've all talked about calling Congress about some issue. It's NEVER been like this.

GREAT WORK, H2O Man, and all your friends and colleagues. And everybody else on DU, too! GREAT WORK!!! THAT'S WHAT WE NEED!!!

[burrowowl]

46. Nice letter!

Thanks to all who have posted sample letters!
I think some suggested we make a seperate thread to post sample letters.
Plus the list of media and political critters posted a couple of thread ago. In fact the list of media, etc. could maybe become a feature on DU like the gov and UN links listed on Commondreams.org.
Would be a good thing and if Skinner could keep it at the top of the list.

[shraby]

47. Fantastic! Wish I could put words

together like that.

[calimary]

88. Funny you mention John Dean. I went to hear him speak here in L.A.

on Monday night. Here's the gist of what he said about the Plame outing:

- that this was one of the dirtiest dirty tricks he'd ever seen. That somebody "put a hit out" on Wilson's wife in response to Wilson's op/ed piece in the NYTimes debunking the Niger/nukes-to-Iraq crap.

- that we've "lost an asset," and not just any asset, that someone like Plame is not just a pretty blonde, but someone who can handle an AK-47 as well as twins. He said anyone who's gone into Plame's line of work has been tested and retested. The government AND the individual both make a huge investment in that individual's career. You'll recall she had been at it for more than 20 years.

- about the Ashcroft self-recusal, he said he thinks they got a break in the case during the last Christmas holiday, that some mid-level person cracked and told the FBI, and then the FBI told Ashcroft, so Ashcroft then knew the goods, and thus had to recuse himself, because even Ashcroft couldn't see his way around a clear conflict of interest like this one.

- Fitzgerald has a good reputation as a prosecutor, not a DC person at all, but rather is from NY and Chicago. He las little regard for the "protocols of power" like everybody in Washington DC does. Dean added that Ashcroft probably had preferred that Fitzgerald NOT be there.

- Dean said he'd been talking to people in the press about this, especially Fitzgerald's subpoenas of press people. Their organizations told them not to tell. But Novak and at least five or six other reporter-types know because there were people spreading this info around, AND that if a grand jury that asks a reporter for the source of his/her information, according to a ruling by the Supreme Court (hee hee!) the reporter has an obligation to cough it up.

Other ancillary stuff Dean said that could feed in here, just for background:

- kkkarl rove is like a combination of Haldeman and Ehrlichman, all rolled into one. Ehrlchman was a policy guy. Haldeman was a procedure guy. Put that into one person and you've got a VERY powerful guy.

- cheney worked for rummy in the Nixon White House (WHAT a tangled web...). Dean said "there's NO QUESTION that he's a 'CO-PRESIDENT.'" He has that kind of power, and bush has happily delegated it to him. And while bush is the front man, who likes the "head of state" thing with the campaigning and the personal appearances and the trappings and all the surface razzamatazz that goes with the office, it's cheney who pulls the actual levers of power in the back room. He said cheney is not a people person, not a natural politician, but a natural insider, and prefers to work in the dark like that. Dean, by the way, got a BIG laugh by describing bush as "not stupid, but ignorant," who never did a lot of intellectual activity, and is "not inclined to start now," and not into intellectual "heavy-lifting," whereas cheney, on the other hand, "loves that stuff."

- that cheney expressed a desire to roll back the clock by 30 years, to an almost imperial presidency, one that's all-powerful, because he perceived that the presidency since then had lost much of its power. Which, by the way, was REALLY fascinating to me, because I CLEARLY remember something bush said, early-on, in his regime, where he described one of his main goals as being "to restore the power of the presidency." I can't tell you where or when, exactly, he said that, but I remember it as clearly as I recall his statement about how it'd be so much easier to govern if this was a dictatorship and he was the dictator. Dean's statement just confirmed that, only to a degree that I had not imagined.

Basically, he said, secrecy is BAD GOVERNMENT, and there's NEVER been as secretive an administration as this one.

[Wilber_Stool]

102. One more thing about Fitzgerald's investigation

No leaks. As far as I know, no body has the slightest idea of whats going on inside. Every one must be shaking in their boots I can't wait much longer.

[shraby]

103. Anyone have any idea how long

it would take for Fitzgerald to interview the ones he has extended the grand jury and to wrap it up? I would think he could get the info he wants from them in about 3 days of testimony for each then a week or so to do the paperwork. How close am I on this assumption?

[Pallas180]

153. SHRABY- grand juries can be used for "fishing expeditions"

so he might be getting new information, sending out investigators
to verify, which might lead to new evidence; it could take awhile,
not three days but weeks, months.

When you're dealing with such big powerful sharks, you're not going
to sh--t till you see the whites of their eyes.

[Me.]

115. Evening with John Dean

Calimary - I loved your report on his talk, I so admire his integrity and his willingness to be a voice for truth

[robertpaulsen]

133. Sounds like a great speech! Was there Q & A afterward?

I would have asked if he had any idea who that mid-level person who cracked was, or if he had an idea whether it was someone working directly for Cheney or Rove.

[calimary]

146. Yes, there was Q&A afterwards.

So many questions - he didn't have time to take even a tenth of them. Big long line to have him sign books people were buying on the spot. It was a standing-room-only crowd. People wanted to know who Deep Throat was. His answer - he took 3x5 cards and wrote down EVERY fact that he found, that came from Deep Throat in Woodward and Bernstein's book. Then, he wrote on the back of each of those cards the likely person or persons who could have had that knowledge to pass along to some reporter in the first place. Three names stood out: Ray Price, Nixon speechwriter; Bill Safire, NYTimes colunnist and then-speechwriter; and Pat Buchanan, also Nixon speechwriter. In addition, he mentioned Charles Colson. But Dean also had plenty to say about how these people could each, easily, be ruled out for very legitimate reasons - like for example, they weren't physically in any proximity to be able to meet with a reporter as described. Somebody asked about Diane Sawyer and he made a very delicate joke about how if it were her, perhaps the nickname Deep Throat was a little too coarse. He said Woodward and Bernstein had vowed not to reveal Deep Throat's identity until Deep Throat dies. The last their Washington Post editor knew was a recent tidbit from Woodward that Deep Throat is ill. The thinking is that it may not be too terribly long before the information is revealed. Dean also said that in the event something happened to Woodward and Bernstein both, before Deep Throat's death, steps had already been taken to ensure that the identity would STILL be released upon Deep Throat's death. He also said, interestingly enough, that about 60 percent of what Deep Throat told Woodward and Bernstein was wrong.

I found no good opportunity to ask a question, jammed into a front corner of the room to be near my tape recorder (mike cord not long enough to stretch all the way to the side. So his back was basically turned to me the whole time.

People also expressed concern about the postponement of the election - and he said there wouldn't be time - 50 state legislatures and who knows how many individual communities would have to legislate to accommodate this. It's a legal thing, he said.

[Pallas180]

154. Deepthroat is ill? Did Alexander Haig recently die? hmmm -once

you start on this solving the mystery thing it just keeps going, doesn't it!

[Pallas180]

152. HEY CALIMARY - how lucky you are to have attended -is he

on a publicity tour? Wonder if we could see him over here in the
South east.

Did you tell him about us? Or maybe he's been here for some time.

Yes. One could never forget dimson's expressed wish for a dictatorship
"because it would be easier". What a sunuvabitch. And that's the truth.

[calimary]

188. I hardly got a chance. I was able to speak to him for about 6 seconds

in a very LONG line of people who'd bought copies of his book for him to sign.

This was at an ACLU Singles group meeting. It was free. Apparently he lives in the area - he made reference to his congressman, Henry Waxman, as about the only oversight in Washington anymore (press doesn't do it, House and Senate are lapdogs to the GOP, and forget the courts). Henry Waxman represents the westside of L.A. and he's my congressman, too.

There was MUCH I would have liked to have told him and asked him. There were lots of KPFK people (local lefty pacifica station) and several local activists who've been in the public eye for - oh, DECADES by now. A former LA City Councilwoman - Ruth Galanter. Turns out there was evidently somebody from the Dem-CA groups there, too. There was an email about it after the fact. Mainly ACLU people and their friends. LOTS of little old ladies wearing Kerry and Boxer buttons and birkenstocks (well, that and CLOTHES, too, of course). Some middle-aged and younger people also. BIG crowd for a little room. They took up every inch of it. Barnes & Noble (which has a three-floor store a few yards up the walkway in this particular mall) had to come out with a little portable PA system because Dean was having trouble talking loud enough for everyone to hear, even after he moved in front of the speaker's table and halfway into the laps of the front row people.

Got a little more on it in this article I wrote for DebateUSA, just for your curiosity's sake...

http://www.debateusa.com/featured/mlyon.htm

By the way - it was to further promote "Worse than Watergate," his current book. It's been out for a couple of months. No, longer than that. I don't know if this appearance constituted a stop on any book tour. He did promote his findlaw.com twice-weekly column, and said he was asked to write about the current controversy over the possible messing with the election, and he was deep into work on it for his column even now. Interesting guy. We had FAR too little time... Everybody loved it. You should have seen the crowd, the line, the people still streaming in even after it started.

[Pallas180]

199. "he who’s brought a whole new meaning to the term “VICE President.”

CALIMARY !!! WHAT A GREAT LINE!! I think you should be awarded the first C.R.U.S.H. award for Writers.

I wish I had been there. He's turning out to be quite a hero anda knowledgeable one at that.

[calimary]

202. Thanks! It's like growing up Catholic. Which I appreciate.

You go to Catholic school to generate material. These people are the cabal that launched a thousand one-liners.

[Pallas180]

204. Keep em coming. What do you think of our naming ourselves

as a group


C.R.U.S.H.

Citizens for Return of United States Honor ???

[calimary]

210. I like it! It'll be a good verb to use on the bushies.

[Pallas180]

44. Ted Kennedy on CSpan saying dimson is the only president

in 200 years who is trying to write bigotry back into the Constitution

He's a wonderful old lion now.

[H2O Man]

48. He is.

Years ago, well .... actually on July 4, 1988, I was in Boston.... the Rev Jesse Jackson was meeting Mike Dukakis in the park .... which is another story, an important one for Kerryto learn from ..... but I can remember asking cab drivers about Ted. They all said the same thing: that while they didn't think he was presidential, he was a great senator.

As always, I agree with you: he has matured. Yes, sobriety has done him good. But it's more than that. He ranks with those we think of in the "Golden Age" of the senate, from 1800-1855. But he stands out even more, because most of those others are lower than the skunks from the senate's "Gilded Age."

Kennedy has played an extremely important role in keeping some of the worst snakes out of the federal courts .... we should really appreciate him.

[Kanary]

49. Have threads 5 & 6 been put in a Word doc yet?

I can't open the entire threads, but have scanned as much as I can, and haven't found a link to the downloadable docs. Is it available somewhere?

I have 1-4, and would like to continue reading.

THanks!

Kanary

[Beam Me Up]

53. Hi Kanary,

It has been a long day but I'll try to get them up for you. Keep checking: http://www.aeschatech.com/dumpster/ That is where they'll be when they're finished.

Best,

BMU

Edit: Well, it isn't going to happen tonight. I'm falling asleep at the computer and am having technical difficulties. Don't know when I'll get to it for sure. Maybe in the AM, if not, won't be for a while as I'm working long hours the next two days. Sorry :(

BMU

[Pallas180]

61. BEAM ME UP - you're a magician. Don't worry. When you get to it we'll

be just as thrilled .

:hi:

[Beam Me Up]

70. plame-indictments05.doc is now there

http://www.aeschatech.com/dumpster/

:hi: :)

I'll try and get the 06.doc up this morning.

Someone else (forget who it was) made the PDF files, I'm just mirroring them.

[Beam Me Up]

72. plame-indictment06.doc is now there, too

http://www.aeschatech.com/dumpster/

[PfcHammer]

89. I have Plame threads 5 & 6 in PDF up as well

Text:

244152 Jul 10 17:08 http://s93118771.onlinehome.us/DU/PlameIndictments01f.pdf
356349 Jul 10 17:08 http://s93118771.onlinehome.us/DU/PlameIndictments02f.pdf
165400 Jul 10 17:04 http://s93118771.onlinehome.us/DU/PlameIndictments03f.pdf
214088 Jul 10 17:04 http://s93118771.onlinehome.us/DU/PlameIndictments04f.pdf
491854 Jul 10 17:04 http://s93118771.onlinehome.us/DU/PlameIndictments05f.pdf
320044 Jul 10 17:04 http://s93118771.onlinehome.us/DU/PlameIndictments06f.pdf

Threaded:

1679955 Jul 10 20:28 http://s93118771.onlinehome.us/DU/PlameIndictments01t.pdf
1639402 Jul 10 20:53 http://s93118771.onlinehome.us/DU/PlameIndictments02t.pdf
1316929 Jul 10 20:52 http://s93118771.onlinehome.us/DU/PlameIndictments03t.pdf
1372833 Jul 10 20:26 http://s93118771.onlinehome.us/DU/PlameIndictments04t.pdf
1891752 Jul 10 20:52 http://s93118771.onlinehome.us/DU/PlameIndictments05t.pdf
1883658 Jul 10 20:26 http://s93118771.onlinehome.us/DU/PlameIndictments06t.pdf

Links are intact in both sets, not just the threaded files. The text only PDF files tend to be smaller than their Word counterparts. :thumbsup:

[Beam Me Up]

169. Thanks KleverKittie! Is it ok that I mirror these as well?

:kick:

[PfcHammer]

180. Help yourself. n/t

[PfcHammer]

240. Plame indictments web page

I have set up a page for the pdf files so they are easier to locate,

http://s93118771.onlinehome.us/DU/PlameIndictments.html.

Also, if anyone wants to post any related material, I have plenty
of space to do so.

[Kanary]

77. You're wonderful!!

I asked, not to harass you, but because as the thread gets longer, I can't get it to open, and didn't want to miss the docs.

I'm not sure you signed up for this much. :hi:

I *really* appreciate it!

Kanary

[AgadorSparticus]

62. here is my letter regarding the postponement of elections.

i hope it is ok to send. please let me know if i missed anything or messed up on anything. it is late and i'm trying to finish this off so i can send it out tomm. morning.

p.s. thanks Pallas for that very succinct list of contacts and templates. how very convenient and wonderful of you.

To Whom It May Concern:

It is intolerable that Americans are being told that their basic rights to vote and have proper elections are open to severe compromise this November. In the days following the attacks on 911, we are told that we are safe enough to go shopping and continue with our daily activities.

After the most devastating attack on American soil, the Bush Administration is able to secure our shopping trips but cannot secure our basic right to vote.

If this president is as much a “war president” as he so adamantly asserts, where is he in protecting the very principles of his OWN country for his OWN people?

Apparently, we are NOT safer and our “war on terror” along with the tampering of our right to vote renders this administration once again, indefensible.

Iraq can hold elections at the cost of US blood and money while we, a cornerstone of democracy and freedom, will have to settle for a postponement of our rights. This is unpatriotic, negligent, and gross incompetence.

However, it is imperative to point out that, under US Codes, in the event that elections MUST be postponed, it is no longer a federal issue. The responsibility goes to each state as to how they want to conduct their polling process. Any Federal involvement in this situation is a clear violation of jurisdiction and state rights. The following is taken directly from Section 2 Title 3 Chapter 1 of the codes:
Sec. 2. Failure to make choice on prescribed day
-STATUTE-
Whenever any State has held an election for the purpose of choosing electors, and has failed to make a choice on the day prescribed by law, the electors may be appointed on a subsequent day in such a manner as the legislature of such State may direct.

-SOURCE-
http://uscode.house.gov/uscode-cgi/fastweb.exe?getdoc+uscview+t01t04+10309+82++%28president%29%20%20AND%20%28%283%29%20ADJ%20USC%29%3ACITE%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20

As a concerned citizen, I implore our elected officials and journalists to investigate why the Bush administration feels the American people should compromise our freedoms and let terrorists win. It is unacceptable. And furthermore, I urge you to make sure this administration adheres to the law and urge STATE leaders to be ready and have reasonable plans for elections in a timely manner.

Sincerely,

[Disturbed]

63. Cheney

As I stated in a thread way back it gets back to Cheney. I suspect Shrub was kept out of the loop on this to keep him clear if an investigation did get serious. I am close to believing Pallast's theory.

Off topic but am semi obsessed with the Prison Torture situation. I believe that it is being held back by all concerned: Bush Admin., DOD, Military, Justice and the Congress. I believe this is because a real investigation of this would bring a whole lot of criminal indictements, maybe even reaching to the Pres.

[wishlist]

68. I am afraid the full truth will again be subverted and suppressed

to protect this Administration from accountability. The groundwork has been set for a coverup and whitewash in the way the media has discredited Wilson and implied that Plame was not involved in covert operations. It seems quite possible the grand jury might not indict or if they do, the indictments will have minimal fallout if the administration and media succeeds at convincing most people that the leakers only did it to get back at Wilson's lies and that it does not affect national security because the leakers knew she was not an operative.

[Tellurian]

75. Wha?.....

"because the leakers knew she was not an operative."
That statement is incongruent..Can you clarify?


And going back to my statement last week..

Wilson was targeted to be Bush's fall guy..for the War in Iraq..

It seems the web is being woven with tremendous weight. I hope Joe has something in his quiver to counter all this manufactured evidence.

[wishlist]

91. The spin being put out is that Plame did not have a sensitive undercover

position, hence no harm intended or done to national security by the leak. Of course, this was Novak's slant earlier on in an attempt to minimize the seriousness of the leak. Despite what Joe Klein and others have written about her extensive activities since Novak first claimed she was not an undercover operative, we are now hearing the spin from several in the mainstream media that she was not directly involved in covert operations so no harm done. (Yesterday in another thread, H20 man mentioned this as being a deliberate distortion going on despite evidence to the contrary)

As long as there is no 'official' confirmation of her undercover status as part of the conclusions of the investigation, the spin could provide damage control. There will be pressure on the grand jury and prosecutor to not confirm or reveal any details of her work that could further damage national security.

[Tellurian]

96. who's spin? WH spin or media spin?

"As long as there is no 'official' confirmation of her undercover status as part of the conclusions of the investigation, the spin could provide damage control. There will be pressure on the grand jury and prosecutor to not confirm or reveal any details of her work that could further damage national security."

Really, How so? You had better keep up..Info is being released hourly that is potentially damaging to Bush.

Read here:

Bush Fights the Release of More Potentially Damaging Information

Today, the New York Times reports that the Bush Administration is fighting the release of a widely disseminated one-page summary about Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction programs. The document is particularly important given that Bush and his National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice did not read the entire 90-page National Intelligence Estimate report presented to them prior to the war.

“The White House’s refusal to release this one-page summary stands in the way of getting to the bottom of our intelligence failures, and weakens our ability to fight the war on terror. There is serious need for change and reform, but before we do that we have to have accountability from this administration.

“In stark contrast to this administration, today we saw Prime Minister Tony Blair take responsibility for intelligence failures related to the Iraq war. We know where the buck stops in London. We don’t know where the buck stops in Washington.” -- Senator Richard Durbin, 7/14/04, Conference Call with Reporters

Continue reading this entry...

http://blog.johnkerry.com/dbunker/archives/002123.html#...

[Pallas180]

171. TELL - what do you think? The evidence is piling up on them. Will

they be forced out, threatened with criminal treasonous charges,
or ?

[Pallas180]

98. WISHLIST get your letters and phone calls going to the media

then you'llknow you did everythingin your own power to get these

bums impeached and free this country.

And whoever said they didnt think Dimson was involved in the outing
think again. He didnt consult a criminal lawyer cause he likes to
pay lawyers out of his own pocket.

:hi:

[Pallas180]

79. BEBE you are hot stuff. great letter.(credit 4 contacts goes to Calimary)

:kick:

[H2O Man]

83. I was just in contact with a relative

who networks with several very active groups of older women. They are nation-wide. I think that what we are going to be able to do is find segments of other groups that will join us on this front. This is a key time: we need to start a decentralized movement to pressure the news media into really nailing this story.

This is hard work. The only rewards at this point come from the knowledge that we are doing the right thing. I also find the positive reinforcement among this group to be refreshing. But we are indeed David calling out Goliath.

We're fighting the good fight. This is a patriotic mission. I feel honored to be on this team.

[TruthIsAll]

93. H2O Man - here are some threads you will find interesting.

I have been following these Plame threads and see that you are a fan of Fletcher Prouty and John Dean. They are my favorites, along with my all-time hero, Jim Garrison.

I can't wait for the frog marching to begin.

Here is a link to some of my posts which touch on JFK and other conspiracies.

I have been convinced the JFK murder was a conspiracy since at least 1969, and have read virtually all the books. Prouty and Garrison are the best.

But I must not forget to mention a classic. Mark Lane's "Rush to Judgment" started it all.

In these threads, I have attempted to circumstantially prove a conspiracy with a probability analysis of all those mysterious related deaths in 1964 and 1977 - just when the Warren and House "investigations" were taking place.

My analysis agrees with the famous study (maligned by the HSCA) by that British actuary who computed the astronomical odds that these related deaths could NOT be a coincidence: around 120 thousand-trillion to one. I remember first seeing the study mentioned in the credits of the classic 1972 film "Executive Action", written by Lane and starring Burt Lancaster, Robert Ryan, etc.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=974193

[Tellurian]

97. TIA...I remember that movie well..

"I remember first seeing the study mentioned in the credits of the classic 1972 film "Executive Action", written by Lane and starring Burt Lancaster, Robert Ryan"

That movie made it to tv 5-6 yrs ago before Bush. haven't seen it since.

I believe Charlton Heston was in it as well...y/n?

[TruthIsAll]

101. No, Heston wasn't in it.

tia

[Tellurian]

137. tia... was the theme of the movie about..

practicing to assassinate a political figure..

If not- We're nothing thinking of the same one then.

[TruthIsAll]

206. The movie was about a JFK assassination team, Texas-based,

oil and CIA elements, plotting to do JFK - and setting up Oswald. Remember, the screenplay was by Mark Lane; no one knew more about the Warren Commission report than he did. In fact, he was about to represent Oswald before Ruby did him.

This movie depicts a plausible scenario of a plan to remove JFK. It was based on facts, yet the screenplay was a fictional representation. The rationale for the conspiracy included JFK's civil rights policies, the test ban treaty, the oil-depletion allowance, etc.

[AgadorSparticus]

94. H2Oman, great idea!!

Oddly, one of my cousins from Seattle called this morning and I told her about my evening out and somehow got into the letter writing and how important it is. To make a long story short, I told her I'd send her letters and she said she will send them out too.

Reading your post got me thinking. I have several family members that will be willing to do this as well and I can easily set up my own little, itty bitty network to come into the fold. It will be a total of 3 of us. But once they get going, I'm sure they can pull in some of their friends and contacts.

I think most of us know a person or two that will be willing to fight the good fight too. I'm not entirely sure my other cousin will get involved, but I can sure put it out there for him to decide.

[H2O Man]

100. It's simply using a lesson that Cesar Chavez taught:

When you are confronted with a seemingly overwhelming task which involves thousands of people, you start by telling one person. Then you tell the next person. And you just keep going. And that's the message that a number of people on here have been bringing home.

[donkeyotay]

104. Hello, been following the threads

H20 Man, I am willing to coordinate letter writing with your group, and here's the thought I'd like to add:

I've been reading John Dean's book, and he makes it very clear that Bush could be impeached for lying to congress regarding the Iraq war. Then, there is the Plame issue. These are two documentable, instances of crimes that were committed by this administration. Crimes that were not only committed by the WH, but are now being covered up and stonewalled by the WH.

My point is this: By preventing the investigation of these two crimes, aren't the Republicans acting as accessories to the crime, after the fact? Aren't they obstructing justice?

Dean talks a little about how conspiracy law has more leeway than other types of law. I don't know law, but I seem to be a natural at propaganda! I think the Republicans need to be hounded and shamed into investigating the misdeeds of this administration, because - no matter what happens in the election - this country must free itself from such deep corruption if it is to continue to exist.

Personally, I am going to make the issue of Republican obstruction a focus of my letters, but it certainly ties in with all that's been talked about here.

[shraby]

106. I feel the same way,

the way any attempts to file contempt of congress charges and attempts to obtain files from the justice department, etc., have been blocked repeatedly should be looked into from the aspect of conspiracy to obstruct.

[Pallas180]

174. DONKEYOTAY - Republican Obstruction Letters! Great idea-

sending each house republican, especially Hastert and the republicans
on the Judiciary committee, (where impeachment articles must come from, and which they certainly would block) should give them a heart
attack at the most - but if they have any sense, a slew of letters like that to each on the Judiciary would give them something to think
about - running to private lawyers to see if they could be charged
with the cover-up and obstruction of justice.

wunnerful. wunnerful.

When you compose that letter, would you post it here, so we can get
an idea and send them too?

[donkeyotay]

242. Thanks, and yes I will post it

But it will be delayed, as life has a way of changing the subject... but when it's done, I'll post.

[coeur_de_lion]

85. Hey Mister Pallas --

Regarding Tecumseh, as we discussed earlier:

I shall the effect of this good lesson keep,
As watchman to my heart. But, good my brother,
Do not, as some ungracious pastors do,
Show me the steep and thorny way to heaven;
Whiles, like a puff'd and reckless libertine,
Himself the primrose path of dalliance treads,
And recks not his own rede.
William Shakespeare

[AgadorSparticus]

92. thanks. i'll send it out then.

thanks for the info calimary.

[robertpaulsen]

131. I love it!

I especially loved these parts:

"After the most devastating attack on American soil, the Bush Administration is able to secure our shopping trips but cannot secure our basic right to vote.

If this president is as much a “war president” as he so adamantly asserts, where is he in protecting the very principles of his OWN country for his OWN people?

Apparently, we are NOT safer and our “war on terror” along with the tampering of our right to vote renders this administration once again, indefensible.

Iraq can hold elections at the cost of US blood and money while we, a cornerstone of democracy and freedom, will have to settle for a postponement of our rights. This is unpatriotic, negligent, and gross incompetence."



With your permission I'd like to borrow these words, especially the bit about the shopping trips, for my own letter. It's fantastic!

[Pallas180]

156. BEBE, very good one! n/t

:hi:

[robertpaulsen]

99. Hi everyone! Glad to be joining thread 7!

I did try to spread the word yesterday on other threads encouraging people to join this thread. I'll keep looking around when I can to see if there is anyone else I can recruit. Adding more great minds to the Plame Think Tank will only bring us closer to the truth.

It's great to see the letter writing increase as this thread carries on! I've been having problems though, as more than half the e-mails I sent out using Calimary's list were returned undeliverable. I'm not sure if the contacts changed their e-mail address or if they were just bombarded yesterday. I'm unfazed. If at first you don't succeed, try, try again!

[calimary]

105. Geez! Well, I'd say - try again. I found that it's been mighty difficult

to call Capitol Hill using that TOLL FREE number, lately, too - because of the overload. Evidently a LOT of people are using it!!! YES!!!

I'd encourage you, if the emails don't work, to try the phone/fax/SNAIL MAIL route. A snail mail letter they cannot dismiss. In fact, it speaks louder than almost anything else, and it's there in black and white.

If you're concerned about the anthrax problem and the US Mail - send a postcard.

[shraby]

108. Here is a new article you

all should be interested in, and maybe a lot of googling would be in order concerning the highest paid members. Have fun! By the way, look at the last entry. James Baker III...no salary...hmmmmm

2004 White House Office Staff List - By Salary

The following information is from a White House report to Congress on White House office staff. (It does not include household or military staff.) The information is accurate as of June 12, 2004. The list is shown here in salary order. You can also see it sorted by last name or job title. By statute, the president's salary is $400,000; the vice president's is $181,400.

(list)

<http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/administration/whbriefing/2004stafflistb.html>

[robertpaulsen]

109. Thanks Calimary! I'll go with fax if e-mail continues to be a problem.

For some reason, I noticed it was particularly a problem with the CBS contacts, but I can always fax them. But I like the snail mail idea, I think I might do that with FOX. :)

[Langis]

110. Is it starting?

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1521&e=2&u=/afp/us_cia_politics_justice

[LeftHander]

112. Yes it is!

[ramblin_dave]

113. Not exactly storming the Bastille

Looks like Harkin and others may be using the 1 year anniversary to apply some pressure though.

[Me.]

119. McLaughlin, the acting head of the CIA is on Wolf Blitzer right now

He is defending the CIA regarding the Senate Intelligence report, and he has made the point several times that they did not say Saddam was seeking to enrich uranium. Doesn't that directly relate to Plame? Also he said that the CIA "did not" say there were WMDs and they certainly didn't endorse those tubes. He is making a really forceful case for the CIA.

[shraby]

120. Terrorism and the Election: California is the Target!

This is a must read!

No postponement, just bedlam at the polls and a low turnout on the west coast is Bush's plan for 'victory'

by Wayne Madsen

You have to give the right-wingers credit. The fear tactics they learned from arch-Nazi propagandist Joseph Goebbels remain at the front of their political playbook. First, they put out the notion that in the event of a terrorist attack around the time of the November 2 election, a postponement of the vote may be necessary. Second, they start talking about the Federal government’s response to such a scenario. It’s the second item we must all be focused upon.


The idea of terrorism affecting the election was first proffered by Reverend DeForest B. Soaries Jr, the Bush-appointed chairman of the U.S. Election Assistance Commission. Soaries is a right-wing New Jersey Republican Secretary of State who has been living under the small “fanatics only” revival tent of the Christian fundamentalist crowd for some time. Soaries’s job is to ensure that there is no repeat of the 2000 Florida fiasco. However, he and his friends in the Bush administration (read that as Karl Rove and Tom DeLay primarily) may have their eyes set on causing a major West coast electoral disruption in 2004 that will make Florida 2000 look like a minor glitch by comparison.


As expected, suspecting a Bush conspiracy to cancel the election and remain in power until a determination would be made by Homeland Fuhrer Tom Ridge that an election was safe, the moderate, liberal, progressive, and libertarian communities cried foul. Postponing an election without a constitutional amendment would be a major breach of the Constitution (not that Bush has ever worried about his constitutional oath) and that would be impossible with only a little over three months before Election Day. Those who respect our Constitution pointed to the fact that President Abraham Lincoln did not cancel the 1864 presidential election during the Civil War – a war which saw this nation more at danger than it is during the current cable news bite-driven and somewhat sensationalist “Global War on Terrorism.”


The right wing had a different take on the possibility of an election postponement. Neo-fascist babble mongers like Rush Limbaugh said, “No!” to a postponement of the election. They argued that if a terrorist alert or attack were to occur, the election should go on and only those votes cast should be counted. Bingo! The plan for a second Bush administration became clear as day. And that plan’s target is California, with its whopping 54 electoral votes, and possibly Washington State’s 11 electoral votes, at stake.

(more)

<http://www.legitgov.org/essay_madsen_terrorism_and_california_071404.html>

He makes a ton of sense.

[TacticalPeek]

140. "He makes a ton of sense."

Here's another pound or two, from MSNBC's Countdown with Keith Olbermann last night:

OLBERMANN: Meantime, if the subject of possibly postponing the presidential election in the event of a terrorist attack was weather of some kind, tonight's report would be: it's not raining, moreover it didn't rain yesterday, and you should just ignore all the puddles and wet lawns. The Bush administration says it will not cancel nor suspend the election even in that worst case scenario, so U.S. Election Assistant Commission Chairman Deforest Soaries, Jr. told a news conference this afternoon, this less than three weeks after he had written to National Security Adviser Rice and Homeland Secretary Ridge and asked them just what they would do about the election in the event of a catastrophic attack since there were no legal processes in place for postponement. Another member of the committee did say that individual states had the power to reschedule elections or even appoint electors in the event of attacks, but Soaries said, "We should get the word out that if something happens in a state that is not yours, you should vote."

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5436511


I'm surprised this "your state" thing is not covered more, unless I missed something.

I'd sure like to find a copy of Soaries' three-week-old memo, to see if it means what it sounds like. :grr:


:shrug:

[Me.]

121. McLaughlin also said

He couldn't answer any questions as to who sent Wilson to Niger because of the ongoing investigation

[shraby]

123. Another thought on Madsen's theory

It was recently found that the electronic voting machines in California were messed with and they apparently aren't going to use them. This puts the election on a more fairer footing which Bushco didn't forsee earlier. Now with the machines out of commission, they have to go to plan "B" which is where Madsen's theory comes into play.

[robertpaulsen]

129. My thoughts exactly: revenge for castigating DIEBOLD.

Perhaps the election "postponement" trial balloon is a set-up to make Bush look like a hero, having the elections in spite of a California terror attack. Never mind the fact that MIHOP=TREASON.

Then again, I don't know how Bush can ensure that a majority of Bush supporters in California voting would exceed the number of Kerry supporters voting even if there was a terror attack. The electoral votes remain the same regardless of how many people vote. Without DIEBOLD, California is in the bag for Kerry.

[Wind Dancer]

142. That is true, the electronic voting machines won't

work now in their favor, so Madsen's theory makes sense. This could be extremely significant in what happens next in the "plan"

[Me.]

134. Water on a Stone

Now, Gov. Richardson, on Hardball, when asked, said that he read the reports and this notion of Saddam buying uranium from Niger is nonsense and he doesn't know where they are getting it from. And now James Bamford is disputing the entire Niger story, and says that the Brits claim sources that they won't produce.

[H2O Man]

136. The British claim they have

"independent intelligence sources" that substantiate their claim that a forged document was actually accurate. But, according to the British, they CAN NOT SHARE this information with anyone, not even the United States!

As Wilson has pointed out, article 10 of the UN Resolution 1441 mandates that all member states share information on nuclear program prohibited by the International Atomic Energy Agency. This, of all cases, is the one exception to England following the international agreement. Man X would simply ask "Why?" and "Who benefits from their refusal to share this information?"

[robertpaulsen]

143. Hi H2O Man! I love using X as a reference point.

When asking "Why?" regarding something so sensitive the British CAN NOT SHARE with anyone, my mind goes back to their most recent scandal, the death of David Kelly. The most simplistic answer to "Why?" would be that these "independent intelligent sources" covers up information that Kelly had answers to that might provide clues as to who he had access to. That information might provide the answer to the question, "Who benefits from their refusal to share this information?" Just a guess.

What's your opinion on the "suicide" of David Kelly? Am I barking up the right tree?

[H2O Man]

160. I know this:

when David Kelly died, a number of friends advised Ambassador Joseph Wilson to be careful .... very careful. Kelly's death was particularly upsetting to Wilson.

[H2O Man]

135. McLaughlin represents the progressive

influences within the agency. I think that it is pretty clear that there are divisions. It is not unlike the Bureau in the years after J. Edgar Hoover died: there were those who wanted to carry on COINTELPRO operations against American citizens who were guilty of nothing more than thought crimes, and there were those who wanted to protect those same citizens from organized crime and other serious forces.

It comes as no surprise that the elements in CI that are closest to the Hoover school from the Bureau are the Bush wing. A "Warren Commission" thread on DU last night included the CI memo from 11-63 that reported on George H. W. Bush's report on the assassination. Many of our younger readers may not be aware of the role the elder Bush played in CI activities in the Gulf of Mexico in the late '50s and early '60s. By the Nixon years, his conflictual relationship with Donald Rumsfeld resulted in his becoming CIA Director. People on here have noted the information that Moore included in F 9-11, and find it interesting that he is the only ex-president to receive daily CI briefs.

Another school of thought is represented by the author of "Imperial Hubris: Why the west is Losing the war on Terorism." Although the media refers to him as "Anonymous," most DUers probably are aware that he is a senior official, Michael Scheure. He has made public comments that in the wake of the 9-11 attacks, CI analysists were ordered repeatedly to "re-do" intel assessments regarding Iraq and Al Queda.

While any jerk-off who writes a book that slams Hilary Clinton is sure to get weeks of exposure on Fox News, they ignore the intense writings of a senior US intelligence officer. I am sure that the democratic left will not fully embrace Scheure: although he demonstrates that the war on Iraq had NOTHING to do with American security in the wake of 9-11, he takes a chillingly hard-core approach to dealing with the Middle East. He is similar to Richjard Clarke in a sense.... while his insight blows the lies and deception of the bush administration clear out of the water .... he is an intense man.

The third school of thought in CI is represented by people like Plame and many others. They are intense in their sense of dedication to this country, but more relaxed in their social & cultural views.

The bush branch, at the urging of the administration and related influences, is active in an effort to triangulate the other two major branches. The efforts may have back-fired, however.

The reason that was noted that McLaughlin could not make reference to the Plame-Wilson business is, of course, accurate. Remember, even after Novak had exposed Plame, Wilson could not legally comment on the majority of the related issues. As participants on this thread know, when Wilson appeared on Meet The Press with guest host Andrea Mitchell last 7-21, NBC edited the answers Wilson gave to an extent that caused CI attorneys to investigate (briefly) if he violated the laws regarding secrecy.

This likely is why Wilson has, for the moment, not responded in kind to the ridiculous and deceitful misinformation being put out by the White House and the republican senators. Although there are very obvious reasons for Congress (both houses) to hold independent investigations (think if this were the Clinton administration!) the republicans haven't got the spine to stand up to the extreme White House pressure to look the other way.

A wide-spread, decentralized lobbying effort by American citizens that targets specific groups and individuals will result in an increase in public scrutiny of this case. That, in turn, will set the wheels in motion at the time the grand jury proceedings become public. And this is what the administration fears.

[shraby]

139. Anybody remember that lawyer

who was found killed recently in the Washington D.C. area (not sure where)? What was the outcome on that? It kinda dropped out of the news.

[kohodog]

163. Hi H20 and all

Been a busy couple of days and I'm just catching up with today's input.

I want to digress for a minute and talk about what we're doing here. I remember seeing the forged yellowcake document on the web well before the war. In fact I thought that the the state of the union reference had to be about a completely different set of facts. It wasn't until Joe Wilson's op-ed that I realised it was the same bogus document he was asked to check out. There have been many other things brought to light (including the torture of prisoners) well before the mainstream press picked them up, if they ever did.


Most of us on this thread are familiar with the feeling of deja vu, or "finally," when some of these things see daylight of the press. But many facts slip by without much notice. The power we have here is for each of us to bring pieces to the puzzle. (McVeigh, Kennedy and the Warren commission, arms trading are just a few that have come out here. We haven't yet spoken of diamond trading though). If we stick with it we will create a mosaic that will paint a picture we can see and define. This can never happen in traditional media. Sometimes I feel that we are on the verge of pulling together a coherent explanation of disparate events and sometimes it seems to be slipping away.

Let's keep digging, sharing andlet's forget there is valuable information in the disclaimers and lies being told by the opposition. And H20, when a shadow csosses our midst there is info there too.

Finally, please act. Get others involved both in the discussion and the letter writing.

peace

[H2O Man]

172. We must be patient.

Our culture has become addicted to instant gratification. Two examples for the sake of our discussion: one is our relationship to our food. Keep in mind that throughout time, the major religious belief systems have all taught that an expressed appreciation for our daily bread is a good thing. The reasons for this are, of course, complex ... but there is no doubt that human consciousness is elevated when we are aware of the connections between our food and ourselves.

Your grandmothers grew much or most of their food. Meal preparation was an on-going process which strengthened generational bonds: mothers, daughter, aunts, neices, all learned from grandma. Family meals strengthened families.

Today we have drive-through windows and pseudo-food zapped in a microwave, and the % of families that share meals daily is getting smaller ever day.

Example 2: Children 40 years ago spent most of their summer vacations outside playing with friends. Today, they spend time alone in front of a tv or computer. Thus, 40 years ago, they were the agent of their own entertainment; today, they are the passive recipient. Entertainment is "now."

We must be careful that we do not fall into the "instant" cultural trap of wanting results NOW. We must not be children expecting to watch democracy occure on a screen, either tv or computer, while we sit back passively.

Rather, we're a throw-back to those older generations, that worked daily to provide the food-stuffs of those meals. We work together, and although we are men and women, we still need to use that model of our grandmother, aunts, mothers, sisters, and cousins .... working as an extended family .... making a feast, and putting some food up for the future.

Likewise, we do not sit passively in front of a screen, demanding instant gratification. No, we are like those innocent children from 40 years ago, outside setting up our own games. And in this neighborhood, we play a serious game called democracy. We're making it happen.

And, what's funny: when I get on here, I enjoy finding a few others on at the same time. Reminds me of meeting my friends at one of our hang-outs.

[kohodog]

176. Yes, Patient and observant

And I agree about the patience aspect. When I had the luxury of time to paint it took a couple of months of long days and nights to make a single painting. That's why I use the analogy of a mosaic. It takes great patience and concentration, and most of all time and the willingness to step back and pull an offending tile out to set it aside until it's place in the work becomes clear.

I like your analogy of making a feast too! The food we put aside for now will surely be needed later!

Back to work...many links to check out.

[calimary]

208. Reminds me of something else John Dean said about the media -

He said that if Woodward and Bernstein were working today, you would just simply NOT HAVE a Watergate investigation. The corporate takeover/consolidation of the media has meant there's as big a squeeze in newsrooms now as there is in any other office where the boss/owner is trying to chisel every spare dime out of everywhere to enhance the profit margin, so the top priority is doing everything on the cheap.

He said that Woodward and Bernstein had the time, back then, to luxuriate on one story and follow it up wherever it was going and spend as much time as they needed digging as far and as deeply as they needed. If they were working today, they'd each have so many other stories to crank out every day that they wouldn't have time to delve into anything below the surface. It's all about cost-cutting, not telling or exposing the truth. Nobody does muckraking anymore. Nobody wants to pay for the time it takes to do muckraking anymore. You know that old saying that you get what you pay for. Well, we certainly see that, here.

[Pallas180]

177. Speaking of McVeigh, Governor Keating was ex FBI & in charge of the invest

investigation of the Oklahoma bombing.

I have never heard of McVeigh & Nichols being connected to Al Queda
before. That was under Big Dawg's administration.

Would Big Dawg tell Keating to keep quiet about the connection?

But Keating was republican governor wasn''t he?

As an ex FBI you wouldn't think he would keep quiet about it.

UNLESS, it was a protected-connected operation to the CIA just
as the Boca Raton factory owned by an Iraqi which exported gas that
affected US soldiers' gas masks negatively was a CIA protected operation.

That is so sick. These people would allow the killing of their own
soldiers? Who do they work for?

Do we have 4 branches of government? the three and the CIA?

And if they would do that with the gas, is there any question they could and would cover up, ignore, allow the missiling of the WTC and the accompanying deaths?

[starroute]

179. I did bring up diamond trading back in Thread #5

It wasn't where the discussion was going at the time, so it pretty much got lost. But I was starting to run into some fascinating information, especially about arms trader Viktor Bout, and I wouldn't mind going deeper into the topic.

[kohodog]

181. star, those posts were amazing

Part of the picture. How does Buchannen fit into that? And have you noticed that DeBeers is suddenly back...maybe no connection, but they suddenly want to make a deal.

There has been a bunch of news about alquida and other groups trading diamonds.

[Pallas180]

189. Bin Laden was trading a blue stone, quite expensive, can't

think of it's name right now... not aqua...a rather newly named stone

but if we get off on the diamonds, then we have to get into Robertson
and diamonds and gold mines....a whole 'nother octopi leg of the corrupted collossus octopus.

Can we hold off on that til we get the -ushwhackers out of the WH?

[starroute]

209. Pallas, we can't afford to hold off on any of it

This stuff is a hydra, with many heads, and if you cut off just one if quickly grows back. The only solution is to cut them all off at once. Otherwise, we'll have the same situation we had after Watergate, where Nixon went away but nothing else changed.

If we get rid of the Bushies but the whole CIA-built complex of arms-dealing, drug-running, and money-laundering remains intact, we will not sleep any safer at night. If we reform the CIA but the various Mafia types who actually carry on those underworld activities are free to keep building their criminal empires, we may wind up far worse off.

If you haven't noticed, much of the world is rapidly sliding into a state of chaos -- Africa, for certain, and now large parts of the Middle East as well. The mafiosi and assorted sociopaths who thrive on that chaos scare me a lot more than any terrorists do.

This set of threads is a historic nexus -- the first point where all the best investigative minds of DU have been focused in the same place at the same time. I think it is very important for us to get all the relevant issues on the table and form a holistic picture of what we're up against. We need to keep on top of the immediate details, like the Plame indictments, but we need to keep working towards the long view as well.

[Pallas180]

215. STAR-I hear you. I think Carlyle has replaced CIA worldwide -taken "The

Company" private so to speak and will continue to run the game and the crimes.
It is not just a matter of ridding the *ushies but the neo-cons, rummy consorts,cheney chums who have been languishing in the beaurocracy since Nixon and Reagan. Well actually it goes back to before that -pappy was working for the CIA as far back as the 50's - and the Dulles brothers and Casey...actually their spy organization began with the import of Nazis who they brought back to the US to learn their spying and organizational methods - that was the OSS which became the CIA.

Therefore 55 years later you see the result. They've been steering this country all along into fascism. And now it is in full bloom.

Will we ever be able to get rid of them? Gingrich types too. And believe me, he's going to run for Pres one day. or maybe he'll get in in Cheney's place. The dark horse, October surprise. He's got name recognition. what a plick.

Now we understand why some dems have been ranting about the impropriety of going from govt. to private enterprise and back and that there should be a period of years between each change. From govt. to Lockheed, Bechtell, Boeing.

Can you make a list, or a schematic, almost like tracing ancestry and branches so we have some idea - there's no way we could tackle it all
at once - there are a zillion govt agencies that haven't been able to.

Can you imagine! The CIA in the business of growing and importing coke and heroin into the country? Not only a money maker for them, but an opiate for the masses. Doing to the American population what the British did to the Chinese...making a large portion of the population irrelevant and "pacified".

[starroute]

217. Here's a rough time-line for starters

c. 1911-13 - Anti-trust legislation and the federal income tax make it difficult to become extravagantly wealthy as easily as before. The rich therefore dedicate themselves to two objectives. (1) Turning back the clock to the Gilded Age. (2) Finding ways to become insanely affluent despite government controls -- arms dealing and oil exploration turning out to be the two most profitable.

1920's - Post-war cynicism and Prohibition combine to produce a culture that is careless of legalities. Gangsters and rum-runners become a model of how to thrive outside the law. With the repeal of Prohibition in the 1930's, the Mob starts turning to heroin dealing instead.

1930's - Early in the Depression, many of the wealthy flirt with fascism as a way of restoring their former status. When this fails, they are forced to trim their sails a bit and become less conspicuous. About 1937, there is a marked wave of populist feeling, and by the 1940's clothing styles have been greatly simplified, so that it is no longer easy to tell the rich just by the way they dress. Rich people spend a couple of decades trying not to stand out in the crowd.

1940's - During World War II, the OSS allies itself with the Mafia. After the war, the Mafia helps break the socialist unions in Marseilles, which then becomes a major drug-smuggling center. (The origin of the "French connection.) When the Communists take over China, the CIA gets involved with two groups expelled by Mao -- dealing arms to the remains of the Nationalist Army, and helping the opium dealers set up shop in the Golden Triangle. At about the same time, business figures like Averell Harriman, Prescott Bush, and the Dulles brothers apparently decide to pursue power instead of money and seek roles in the government.

1950's - After the French give up on Indo-China, the CIA takes over drug operations there too. Meanwhile, Cuba has become a major transshipment point for drugs reaching the US, and CIA money laundering operations go along with this.

1960's - When Castro kicks the Mob out of Cuba, an unholy mix of the CIA, the Mob, and anti-Castro Cubans starts to ferment in Florida. Probable link to Kennedy assassiantion, definite link to Watergate.

c. 1976 - Significant, although hard-to-define change in how money and power operate in our society. George H.W. Bush becomes director of the CIA. In the wake of the 1973 oil crisis, great interest in oil reserves and Central Asia. CIA and related operations become more out-of-control and more focused on personal power and money than on national agenda. Apparent convergence of the "respectable" elite with the criminal underworld.

1980's - Reagan elected. Old elite dream of reversing the effects of anti-trust legislation and the federal income tax (and unionization) suddenly seems attainable. Raw wealth begins to be exalted in a way it has not been since the early 30's. Covert activities, law-breaking, and fraud rampant both within and outside the government.

1990's - Globalization of crime, including operations by governments, businesses, and individuals. In many countries (like much of the former Soviet Union), criminal operations dominate the state. Rich folk everywhere make out like bandits.

[shraby]

218. How in the world does anyone

reign that in?

[Jose Diablo]

220. Mark Lombardi network needed

to visually represent the interconnected links.

If the world is to be made into a better place, the many parts of this 'beast' need to be exposed and expunged.

Any half-way measure will only allow it to resurface stronger in the future. Its got to be 'killed' and 'burned'. All of it.

I am sure if we had good data going back far into history we would see this network with many different faces. But it is still the same throughout history, just different faces.

Slave trade, opium trade, colonialism, conquering armies, merchants selling to both sides of conflicts even causing the conflicts, theft of resources its all the same 'beast'. Only the names change.

If our children are to inherit a better world we need to do this.

[Pallas180]

251. STAR I do my best thinking while driving. always have. Elections

We have to do everyting in our power to influence these elections
and see that Kerry - Edwards get elected.

WHY?

because if we dont focus our energies on that RIGHT NOW - you don't have to worry about tracing and exposing the govt.-crime enterprise
because there wont be a plucking thing you or anyone else can do about
it.

If the current administration remains in office - The crime OCTOPUS
has complete control of the last bastion of democracy on this planet.

I thought it over. Yes, if we save this democracy by getting Kerry
Edwards in, afterwards we can all braintrust the rest of the BEchtel, Boeing,Military Industrial Complex and write a congress about it that
will respond.

If we don't succeed in the first goal - there's no use in having any
other internet goals.

To go into the Russian, Bulgarian and other illegal arms groups right now is only going to draw us away from the prime major objective.\

FREEING THIS COUNTRY FROM THE FACE OF THE CABAL THROUGH THIS 2004 ELECTION

[daria_g]

213. Arms trade..

I remember that - I've been following ever since but didn't add more as some preferred the thread not go off on a tangent.

However I wonder if there may be at least a tangential connection to the Plame case. Arms traffickers (as in some articles I cited back on that thread) often draw up forged documentation about shipment origins/destinations and so forth. And Josh Marshall has hinted several times that the key to whatever big story is forthcoming by him and his colleagues is.. what is the origin of the forged Niger documents, who created them and for what purpose? Viktor Bout for one has gone from being called the number one arms trafficker for Al Qaeda/Taliban to actively working for coalition forces. Something is fishy.

[Pallas180]

157. I have never seen a sit down interview with the head of CIA

before. Ever. Not even when JFK passed.

It's July 14. That's pretty explosive.

[kohodog]

178. most of them don't have shadows (not to mention a reflection in a mirror)!

I don't remember that either. The CIA might be the key to blowing the whole thing open and exposing their sorry asses.

Daniel Ellsberg is calling for whistleblowers in his "truth telling project." We're gaining momentum.

[H2O Man]

165. Interesting point:

After Novak was given the information about Plame's identity from Libby and Abrams on July 6, 2003, he contacted two CI officials for confirmation that she was an operative. He admitted later that the CIA officials asked him (1) not to print her name, and (2) not to publish anything about her employment.

In "American Prospect," Murray Waas wrote: "Two government officials have told the FBI that conservative columnist Robert Novak was asked specifically not to publish the name of undercover CIA operative Valerie Plame in his now-famous July 14 newspaper column. The two officials told investigators they warned Novak that by naming Plame he might potentially jeopardize her ability to engage in covert work, stymie ongoing intelligence operations, and jeopardize overseas sources."

We know that the next day, Novak told a total stranger that, "Wilson is an asshole. The CIA sent him. His wife, Valerie, works for the CIA. She's a weapons of mass destruction specialist."

Despite the fact that Novak knew Plame was a secret operative specializing in WMD work with overseas sources, and that CI was strongly opposed to his mentioning her name or employment status in ANY article .... yet he felt compelled to follow the instructions of Libby and Abrams.

[Pallas180]

182. NOVAK at the time I emailed CNN he should be taken off air and

had committed treason. Nothing.

Since he was specifically asked by CIA officials NOT to mention her
name and job, and he did anyway, can he be charged with treason? or
some federal criminal charge?

And why isn't he already?

[merh]

183. New thread discussing Hitchens' latest garbage -

The admin is trying to CYA -- attacking victim & witness to discredit them before the sh** hits the fan!
==============
Plame's Lame Game
What Ambassador Joseph Wilson and his wife forgot to tell us about the yellow-cake scandal.
By Christopher Hitchens
Posted Tuesday, July 13, 2004, at 9:27 AM PT

http://slate.msn.com/id/2103795

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1995318

[Pallas180]

190. He has such intense viciousness -if its painful to listen to him,

imagine how he feels living inside of that hatred.

[Pallas180]

191. H20-how did so many sociopaths/psychopaths manage to congregate in one

city and industry. These are people without conscience. Some are
actively murderers, some give orders knowing it will result in mass
killing.....it seems to me to be similar to a major mafia family.

what is their diagnosis?

And why are they all together in government and military industry?

Something's wrong here. Instead of the cream of the crop, the dregs
have gotten in.

Are they a reflection of America?

crooked, greedy, without integrity, without honesty, without conscience?

[ramblin_dave]

192. Have Libby and Abrams been identified as the two

senior officials who spoke to Novak? If so, I missed that. Is someone reporting it or is it just speculation?

[shraby]

200. We have another job to do

I've been hammering my Senator on it. Here is Seymour Hersh on the radio about the Abu Graib torture. It will make you sick.

<http://radio.weblogs.com/0107946/2004/07/14.html#a1922>

[LibertyorDeath]

211. Streaming video of Hersch

http://stream.realimpact.net/?file=clients/aclu/conf2004/20040707_aclu_AmericaAtACrossroads_300.rm
Comes on at 1:07:50

[Pallas180]

216. Shraby, not going to listen to it tonight. I want to be able to sleep and

if I listen to what I expect that is like, ---

tomorrow.

Niters guys.

[TacticalPeek]

212. If the "two" are Libby and Abrams, then there may be a third perp.

Initial perp I mean, as in Identities Act violator.

Scooter Libby, as assistant to the vice president for national-security affairs, and Elliot Abrams, as Director for Near East and North African Affairs, would be customers for classified CIA info. They would have clearance to receive classified reports and briefings, but they would NEVER be briefed by a NOC agent such as Plame.

Her identity would be extremely closely held. Even though those two would have high security clearance (Abrams a pardoned felon, ha!), they would not have a "need to know" any NOC identity.

Seems to me someone else got her number and gave it to them. Perhaps during the "work-up" on Amb. Wilson, they stumbled on to a "loose lips" slip (highly unlikely). Or someone mean and powerful twisted arms (Pork Chop Boy). Or someone operational is on the dark side, and curried favor with or joined the cabal (?).

I just cannot see where Libby or Abrams would have the "need to know" in order to get someone to give up this info. I'm also not sure how Pork Chop Boy would have "need to know", although raw power may go some way toward blurring the need(?).
Bottom line, this would seem to bring in conspiracy laws to tie the different levels of crime together. More than two.

[H2O Man]

221. Go back to March 8, 2003

A state department spokesperson, in discussing the forged document on Niger-Iraq and uranium, told a reporter, "We fell for it." A few hours later, Wilson told a CNN reporter that the government had "more information" on the matter than they were saying .... Wilson knew there were a total of FOUR reports: his, and three others that were submitted by American Ambassador Barbro Owens-Kirkpatrick and 4-star Marine Corps General Carleton Fulford.

(Have you noticed the B O-K and C F reports get VERY LITTLE attention from the administration? "Why?" Because they remove ANY QUESTION on the question of if this Niger-Iraq connection occured .... or if there were ugly forces at play, planting bogus documents to justify an invasion that had been planned from before the administration took office!)

Anyhow, that afternoon, there was an emergency meeting of top republican officials in the Vice President's office. Some question if cheney was actually there; was there but not talking; or what role he played. But I think we can narrow this down .... if we wanted to hold an emergency meeting of the DU Plame investigators, we probably couldn't.(smile) Libby was definitely there. Newt Gingrich was there. Imagine that? Is Newt an elected official? Part of the administration? Or is he part of that power elite that we discussed, part of a private interest that can drop in and use the VP's office when the mood strikes him?

It is "on record" that this meeting was held because of what Wilson said to CNN. NOT because of his report, alone .... but the mention of more information. These people discussed how to respond to Wilson if the need to discredit him became fully necessary. This included detailed discussions on Wilson and his background. Page 452 of his book covers this.

Remember that cheney had put together his own intel group that has no Congressional oversite. Now, tell me, what organized group met in cheney's office on 3-8?

On July 6, Wilson's op-ed piece ran in the NYT. The next day, Novak was telling a complete stranger on a public street that Plame was a CI WMD specialist. A week later, his article ran in the paper. And Chris Matthews, among others, was telling Wilson that Rove had called him to say, "Wilson's wife is fair game," and that the White House was going to make HER IDENTITY, not the uranium farce, the "real story."

When David Corn reported the White House had likely violated federal law, Rove did FREAK! He blamed cheney, libby, and others for the problems they had caused the president. In another post, I detailed the "distance" this has created between the offices of the president and vp.

Who had the information on Plame to begin with? You hit the nail on the head. It came out of the vp's office on 3-8.Do you remember some republicans saying it was "common knowledge?" Only among that group.

[Jose Diablo]

223. In the many trips Cheney made to Langley

to 'discuss' with analysts the Iraq WMD situation, surely Cheney himself met with Plame. She was after all a 'point man' in the clandestine network of operatives investigating black market WMD component sales.

As mentioned earlier in these threads, Cheney probably figured out where her investigation would end-up and made a decision at that point to 'take her out'.

It had to be Cheney that initially 'outed' Plame. Had to be him.

[TacticalPeek]

226. The 'former Vice President Cheney' talk is all over the tv this morning.

Saying that 'all of Washington knows' the Pork Chop Boy is toast.

The R spokesmen deny it unequivocally, so there's at least a 50-50 chance the rumors are on target.

Maybe non-Senatorial candidate Mike Ditka is holding out for the VP slot? :evilgrin:

(On the Don Imus show this am, the I-Man said "If they can't find Osama, they're gonna lose Cheney." Good one, Don.)

[H2O Man]

228. It's amazing, isn't it?

The mainstream media has an "8-day delay" when compared to what is being discussed on the Plame Indictment threads!

[kohodog]

230. Another distraction

Why now? When was the last time the New York Times Had a stated rumor on the front page? (There were plenty regarding WMD before the war, but they were trotted out as news).

[RebelYell]

222. Questions

I have been following this issue here from the beginning. I have several questions I wish I could ask Scott McLellan.

1. WHY would Joe Wilson lie?
2. What was his motive to lie?
3. Who DID have a motive to lie?

No one needs to be Columbo to determine who is lying and why.

[Timefortruth]

224. What did he lie about?

Plame's recommendation? Who cares?

If it's the yellow cake, where is Wilson's lie? The new charges against Wilson only qualify possibilities. It is all smoke and mirrors, some people will buy it if they are naive enough to believe charges without substance. The documents were still forgeries.

The bottom line is that Plame was a CIA operative and by revealing that a serious crime was committed.

[H2O Man]

225. I think the point was

that Wilson didn't have reason to lie, and the White House did.

Again, on page 346, Wilson makes clear that his wife did not play a substantive role in his being selected to go to Niger. On another post, I detailed how Wilson had been (briefly) investigated by CI attorneys when MSNBC edited one of his answers on Meet The Press. Even today, he can not speak openly about his wife.

But I can. So let's clarify the memo that the republicans are using to imply Plame selected Joseph for this job. They highlight that she wrote that he had connections & good relationships with Niger officials. Of course she did. If the CIA's DDI requests that she relay a message asking her husband to attend a meeting, it is not earth-shaking to find that Plame returned a message that confirmed her husband had the needed credentials. That hardly qualifies as her approaching DDI and demending they hire her unemployed husband for a job. It's hard for many republicans to believe that qualifications, rather than nepotism, came into play .... because that's not part of their world-view.

[RebelYell]

227. Exactly......

....what did Joe Wilson have to gain by lying?

I can't see how he would benefit by lying. If I've missed something, correct me. This issue is so simple, you can't see the forest for the trees because of everything surrounding the issue. This issue continues to be WHO lied about it and WHY. I don't doubt for a minute that Joe Wilson and Valerie Plame are innocent of lying.

[H2O Man]

229. The administration's attack

on Wilson and Plame's integrity on this issue is the moral equivalent of their attacking Kerry on his record of service in Vietnam. They have such audacity that it almost qualifies as a slapstick humor that one might expect on Saturday Night Live. The difference, of course, is that it is reckless: not only do they willingly risk destroying a CIA operative's ability to do her job, but their actions have resulted in problems for people in other countries that were coordinating efforts geared at actually making the world a safer place.

There is a growing and real concern that a group of people who really do hate ALL of America have gained the materials needed to make a "dirty bomb" style weapon. In Michael Moore's fantastic movie, "F 9-11" he focuses on the open coast of the Oregan/Washington area for a specific reason: there has long been a suspicion that a city like Portland or Seattle is a likely target. If you want a further source on this concept, read "A Republic, Not an Empire," by Patrick Buchanan. He wrote this in 1999: "It is in February of 2005 that the explosion occurs in the port of Seattle. It is a low-yield crude atomic device, but the devastation is incredible. .... No one knows for certain who put the device there. ....But intense speculation focuses on a group associated with the financier of terror Osama Bin Laden, whom US Special Forces ran down and killed years earlier .... Meanwhile, there is panic in every American port. From Boston to Baltimore to New Orleans to San Diego to San Francisco, millions of people are refusing to go to work ....Pakistan, Iran, and North Korea are all nuclear powers, but no one can say for sure if their leaders had a hand in nuclear terrorism." (pgs 44-45)

But, of course, this administration is as willing to attack these guys, Moore and Buchanan, as they are Wilson and Plame. Thanks, vp cheney, libby, abrams, gingrich, and rove .... thanks for derailing the Plame investigation. Bastards.

[swag]

232. It should be pointed out again that anti-tax Oregonians are to blame

for our terrible shortage of State Police. I attended a conference in 1993 (shortly after the infamous Measure 5 had begun to reap its awful havoc, which our schools and state services feel to this day), where the luncheon speaker was the chief of State Police. He was warning then that the force was being decimated and that things would soon get worse thanks to the likes of Bill Sizemore and other troglodytes who know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

May be beside the point, but I feel compelled to keep bringing this up. The greed of the few has caused pain and a lack of security for the many.

[H2O Man]

234. That's certainly true

and a valid point. Also true, and equally valid, is that the federal government was supposed to pump revenue into state programs that provide for the national defense.

[swag]

238. Point well taken

Thank you.

[RebelYell]

233. I saw this on another board

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/US/uranium030715_docs.html

This article is from 7/15/03 - apparently according to "intelligence sources":

"President Bush's claim about Saddam Hussein's seeking uranium from Africa was just one part of his case for war, albeit a very important one.

However, the intelligence debacle grew out of a scam when an underpaid African diplomat who was stationed in Rome created bogus documents, which he then sold to the Italian secret service, sources said.

The Italians officially deny the sale, but intelligence sources told ABCNEWS the fake documents were produced in late 2001 in Rome, in a building that houses the tiny embassy of Niger.

The diplomat, who now has been recalled to Niger, sold the forged documents to the military branch of the Italian secret service for what sources say was a few thousand dollars."

Have you seen this information anywhere else? Specifically, the document was forged by an underpaid African diplomat?

[Pallas180]

235. The smell of Chalabi people is on the forged Niger documents.

Who benefited?

Lots of people wanted that war in Iraq to take place...the cabal and
Chalabi faction were at the forefront.

The fact that it was such a bad forgery;, wrong dates of diplomats
who would have been in office at the time the info in the letter purportedly took place, leads me to think Chalabi types.

Anything to help his masters.

[donkeyotay]

250. Crude forgeries and Chalabi?

I recall that when the IAEI (?) got the documents before the war (but when it was "too late" to stop it) they said they debunked it within hours. They described it as a "crude" forgery, and easily proven so by anyone with access to the internet.

So intelligence agencies were not going to be fooled, right? This makes me wonder, again, why send people to debunk something so obviously false? And why worry about this when the SOTU speech said that "Britain said...."? The bush hid behind the poodle, who refused to release his proof.

If anyone wakes up at 3 o'clock in the morning with the unified theory, please post.

[TacticalPeek]

249. Josh Marshall, yet again, has this rapped down at TPM.

Robert Novak today has a column crowing about the
Senate intel committee report with respect to Joe Wilson
and the Niger matter. Nonetheless, he still manages to
misstate its findings.

At the head of Novak's
column he says that
committee Democrats "did not dissent from the
committee's findings that Iraq apparently asked about
buying yellowcake uranium from Niger."

Dissenting from this finding would admittedly have been a
challenge since this is not in fact what the Report said.

snip

One other point that deserves mention: quite a bit has
been made about the portion of the SSCI Report that
says that Wilson's wife recommended him for the
assignment. As a matter of substance, who recommended
Wilson is irrelevant. Yet, Wilson's credibility would be
undermined if he said X were true, when in fact he knew
Y was the case. The LAT article notes that Plame's
bosses at the CIA continue to insist that the idea to send
Wilson was not hers, but rather theirs. The Times quotes
a 'senior intelligence official' saying that "Her bosses say
she did not initiate the idea of her husband going…. They
asked her if he'd be willing to go, and she said yes."

What the truth of it is, I don't know. But the larger
hullabaloo over this secondary point is simply intended to
distract attention from the administration's persistent
attempt to use weak and ultimately discredited information
to muscle the country into war on a timetable which had
precious little to do with preventing any sort of standing
threat to the United States.

-- Josh Marshall



Today's memo also refs some interesting articles. :)
http://talkingpointsmemo.com



There's a thing called "quiet", and there's a thing called "the calm before the storm".

[dweller]

236. another news topic

I can't keep up with this thread in its enormity, tho i try. I will have to wait for the MSword files.
but everytime i read something like this:
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/07/15/MNGKE7LMNK1.DTL

it tweaks an antenna about this topic. Don't know if it's been brought here already, but just in case not.

dp

[AVID]

237. kick -

[starroute]

245. Can we start a side thread on the arms trade/international crime?

There's clearly an enormous amount to be said on that topic -- but it doesn't belong in this thread.

I don't know what the magic formula is that has kept these Plame threads moving along so strongly, but I'd like to see some of that focused attention carried over to one or more side discussions.

Can those of us who are interested agree to meet at another location to investigate the interrelated topics of drug smuggling, money laundering, the arms trade and nuclear proliferation, African arms sales and diamond mines, the many local mafias and their influence over national governments, etc.?

[Pallas180]

252. STAR - ELECTION - I do my best thinking while driving-always have

STAR I do my best thinking while driving. always have. Elections


We have to do everyting in our power to influence these elections
and see that Kerry - Edwards get elected.

WHY?

because if we dont focus our energies on that RIGHT NOW - you don't have to worry about tracing and exposing the govt.-crime enterprise
because there wont be a plucking thing you or anyone else can do about
it.

If the current administration remains in office - The crime OCTOPUS
has complete control of the last bastion of democracy on this planet.

I thought it over. Yes, if we save this democracy by getting Kerry
Edwards in, afterwards we can all braintrust the rest of the BEchtel, Boeing,Military Industrial Complex and write a congress about it that
will respond.

If we don't succeed in the first goal - there's no use in having any
other internet goals.

To go into the Russian, Bulgarian and other illegal arms groups right now is only going to draw us away from the prime major objective.\

FREEING THIS COUNTRY FROM THE FACE OF THE CABAL THROUGH THIS 2004 ELECTION

[starroute]

256. Pallas, I really don't understand what you're up to

When I first started introducing some of these topics, you suggested they belonged in a different thread. I wasn't sure about that, but as this latest thread became increasingly focused on short-term goals, it seemed to make sense. So I put up a call for others who were interested in researching the arms trade and international crime to join me in a side thread. But now you're saying you've "thought it over" and come to the conclusion that it would be wrong to discuss the matter at all.

That seems very strange to me. DU is not a place where I expect to find other people telling me what I should or shouldn't be talking about.

This country has been suffering for 30 years from not getting to the bottom of things: After Watergate when Nixon was let off the hook. In 1993 when Bush the elder pardoned the Iran-Contra criminals right and left and Clinton never pushed the matter.

Right now, people are mad, people are fired up, people are determined to get at the truth no matter what it takes. But if Kerry is elected, I fully expect the country to go back to sleep. There will be calls for reconciliation and letting bygones be bygones. A lot of activists will be burned out and eager to have a life again. The network of bloggers, who are busily saving democracy out of their own pockets, will find it harder to dedicate themselves quite so fanatically.

So if the truth is to be found, it has to be now. This summer. Not later, not after everyone starts to relax, but now. We have no choice about this -- we have just a small window of opportunity, and we may not get another chance. And DU is absolutely the place to do it.

So if your primary interest is letter-writing campaigns, by all means pursue that. But please take yourself out of the way of those who have different talents and different objectives.

[RebelYell]

246. Novak's latest

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/robertnovak/rn20040715.shtml

Errant former ambassador
Robert Novak

WASHINGTON -- Like Sherlock Holmes's dog that did not bark, the most remarkable aspect of last week's Senate Intelligence Committee report is what its Democratic members did not say. They did not dissent from the committee's findings that Iraq apparently asked about buying yellowcake uranium from Niger. They neither agreed to a conclusion that former diplomat Joseph Wilson was suggested for a mission to Niger by his CIA employee wife nor defended his statements to the contrary.

Wilson's activities constituted the only aspects of the yearlong investigation for which the committee's Republican chairman, Sen. Pat Roberts, was unable to win unanimous agreement. Peculiarly, the Democrats accepted the evidence building up to the Wilson conclusions but not the conclusions themselves. According to committee sources, Roberts felt Wilson had been such a "cause celebre" for Democrats that they could not face the facts about him.

[shraby]

247. It's time for a new thread

mods. This one is getting hard for people to load.

[Pallas180]

253. SCHRABY, I'll make it cause wanna put "letters" & threads on top

n/t

[Pallas180]

254. OK Plame Thread 8 up - hurry to add any info from #7

n/t