Plame indictments......thread 6

[Moderator]

Thread 5:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1962806&mesg_id=1962806

[kohodog]

1. What timing...

I've kind of been waiting for that shoe to drop all day....Pallas & Iconoclast, maybe you'd like to dupe you're last few posts to the start of #6 so we won't skip a beat.

[Pallas180]

3. Threads 1 thru 4 and 5 available here:

am_me_up (1000+ posts) Sat Jul-10-04 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #1

41. Threads 1 - 4 as downloadable MSWord docs:

Edited on Sat Jul-10-04 11:48 AM by beam_me_up
Thread 1: http://www.aeschatech.com/dumpster/plame-indictments01.... 05-Jul-2004 14:29 433k
Thread 2: http://www.aeschatech.com/dumpster/plame-indictments02.... 06-Jul-2004 18:11 516k
Thread 3: http://www.aeschatech.com/dumpster/plame-indictments03.... 08-Jul-2004 23:48 286k
Thread 4: http://www.aeschatech.com/dumpster/plame-indictments04.... 10-Jul-2004 08:45 353k

The only problem with them is that many of the links contained in the text are "truncated" so they do not give the full URL. The only way I know to fix them is by going through them by hand and making the fix -- very time consuming. One could, of course, just save the thread to one's hard drive as an archive or html source -- but I've found that even then they are so long it takes a while for them to open. Harder to print out, too.

BMU


Thread 5

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1962806&mesg_id=1962806

[Pallas180]

4. The last few posts including Congress & Media addresses

Pallas180 (1000+ posts) Sun Jul-11-04 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #275

278. CONTACT CONGRESS & LEADERSHIP ADDRESSES:


Fax Numbers of US Congress

http://www.no-smoking.org/feb97/2-17-97-01.html


Congressional Leadership

http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/cgi-bin/leadership.cg...


Congressional Committees & Subcommittees

http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/cgi-bin/committee_lis...


Misc. Contact Congress

http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/search.html

[Pallas180]

6. CALIMARY MEDIA & EDITORS CONTACT LIST

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1962806&mesg_id=1970152&page=


Updated Calimary list

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1962806&mesg_id=1970177&page=

[Pallas180]

9. Individual Reporters & Newspaper List

forgive me, it's on the drudge rag site, but it's useful

http://www.drudgereport.com/

[Pallas180]

11. H20's SUGGESTED LETTER TO MEDIA & CONGRESS

for you to copy or use as a guide to send:


H2O Man (1000+ posts) Sun Jul-11-04 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #256

261. Here's a suggestion ......


Dear _________;

I am writing to express my concerns about on-going efforts to discredit Ambassador Joseph Wilson. In his NYT Op-Ed article "What I Didn't Find In Africa," Wilson exposed a claim by President Bush in his 2003 State of the Union Address to be untrue. Since that time, the White House has been involved in an effort to destroy Wilson's reputation, which included exposing his wife as a CIA operative.

In John Dean's review of Wilson's book (NYT Book Review; 5-23-04; pg9) he documents that two days after the op-ed article ran, journalist Robert Novak was telling people that Wilson's wife Valerie Plame was a CIS "weapons of mass destruction specialist."

Novak exposed Plame's identity in a 7-14-03 column. He sourced his story to two "senior administration officials." These two senior White House officials had lobbied at least six journalists to expose Plame in what Dean calls a "you-hurt-us-we-will-hurt-you warning" to those tempted to expose administration "misinformation."

When Wilson appeared on MSNBC's "Countdown," host Keith Olbermann held up three identical e-mails from the White House. Olbermann explained their intent was to discredit Wilson with their "talking points."

Wilson has noted that Sandy Berger, President Clinton's national security advisor pointed out that since the Bush people never back down, the fact that they had admitted an error after the op-ed article indicated "they must have something more important to protect." (The Politics of Truth, by Wilson; pg4)

Joseph Klein's 7-5-04 article in Time (Plenty More to Swear About; pg 21) reveals that Plame was "active in a sting operation involving the trafficking of WMD components" when her identity was exposed by the White House. "Only a high-ranking official could have had access to the knowledge that Plame was on the pay-roll," an intelligence source told Klein.

There is clearly more to this story than the White House and senate republicans are willing to tell the public. What investigation by Plame needed to be derailed by the White House? I hope that national leaders and the media will focus attention on this important issue.

Sincerely,

[Pallas180]

12. KOHO'S SHORT & SWEET SUGGESTED LETTER TO SEND

Dear_________;

I am writing about the outing of CIA Agent Valerie Plame. It seems that the Grand jury Investigation has wrapped up or will soon, but little has been mentioned of late. What may have been political payback to Joe Wilson for refuting the Niger yellowcake claims in the State of the Union address could have actually made this country a great deal less safe. According to Joseph Klein (Time 7-5-04--Plenty More to Swear About), Plame may have been "active in a sting operation involving the trafficking of WMD components." If this is true (or even a possibility, those responsible must be brought to justice. I submit that underground trafficking of WMD components presents a far more imminent threat to our country than Saddam Hussein did. In my mind this certainly achieves the status of "High Crimes," and I urge you to not let this issue fall by the wayside. The security of our country may have been irretrievably harmed by a few high ranking officials and they must be brought to task.

Sincerely,

[Pallas180]

13. PALLAS' 'GIVE EM HELL' SUGGESTED LETTER

Dear ____________


Concerning Time magazine's Joe Klein's July 5 article, page 21 revealed that Valerie Plame was "active in a sting operation involving the trafficking of Weapons of Mass Destruction components"" when her identity was exposed by the White House. It also said" Only a high-ranking official could have had access to the knowledge" that Valerie Plame was a covert CIA agent.

1) Our study group has found that Vice President Cheney since 1995 as CEO of Halliburton was fined 1.2 milion dollars for illegal sales of similar components to Libya. Shortly before becoming Vice President he bitterly assailed US policy against selling such components to Syrria and Iran, which apparently hurt Halliburton's bottom line.

2) Our study group has also found that there is an investigation of Vice President Cheney in other countries for illegal bribery and various other offenses connected to Halliburton as well as paying amounts to secret Swiss bank accounts

3)The Atomic Energy Commission has said a North American company is one of 20 being investigated for black market sales of WMD materials.

Our study group suspects there is more to the White House revealing Valerie Plame's covert CIA status since the Republicans refuse to hold investigations on the matter.

Frankly, it would appear to us that possibly Valerie Plame was stopped in her tracks and the CIA sting operation was exposed because it was coming close to discovering another violation of the laws by our own Vice President and the Hallibuton company he has awarded billions of US taxpayer dollars to in non-bid contracts.

There is a question of where the Vice President's and President's loyalty lies: to their Corporate friends and company's bottom line or to the security and wellbeing of the America.n people?

In any case, the exposure of Valerie Plame by the White House was and is treasonous.

The responsibility of the Media and Congress is to expose these wrong doings, investigate and safeguard against this type of occurrence for the American people.

WHY are you not fulfilling your role to me, to my study group, and the rest of the American people in this country and WHEN will you start ?


Sincerely

[Pallas180]

14. THE NEXT LETTER WE MUST SEND: DONT POSTPONE ELECTION

Pallas180 (1000+ posts) Sun Jul-11-04 04:38 PM
Response to Original message

304. OUR NEXT & SEPARATE LETTER HAS TO BE ABOUT THIS:


From Robert PaulsenL

written by Michael Isikoff in July 19 issue of Newsweek

Exclusive: Election Day Worries
Newsweek
July 19 issue - American counterterrorism officials, citing what they call "alarming" intelligence about a possible Qaeda strike inside the United States this fall, are reviewing a proposal that could allow for the postponement of the November presidential election in the event of such an attack, NEWSWEEK has learned."

A set up for the end of elections and a dictatorship - endless ruling
by bushista cabal.

[Pallas180]

15. Internment Camps and Martial Law Under FEMA ?

Forum Name General Discussion
Topic subject From 2 yrs. ago, re: Martial Law
Topic URL http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
1970879, From 2 yrs. ago, re: Martial Law
Posted by Scairp on Sun Jul-11-04 04:26 PM

This is WAAAAYYY scarier than postponed elections.


Foundations are in place for martial law in the US

Recent pronouncements from the Bush Administration and national security initiatives put in place in the Reagan era could see internment camps and martial law in the United States.

When president Ronald Reagan was considering invading Nicaragua he issued a series of executive orders that provided the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) with broad powers in the event of a "crisis" such as "violent and widespread internal dissent or national opposition against a US military invasion abroad". They were never used.
<snip>

[Pallas180]

16. H20 Says This Is The United States of America

H2O Man (1000+ posts) Sun Jul-11-04 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #314

316. Over and over:


the message is clear -- we are in a struggle for the very essence of America's experiment in democracy. Do not take the Bill of Rights for granted. Like any muscle, you use it or you lose it. Have the proper respect for the US Constitution. This is the United States of America, and we should never forget that......and never let the enemies of America forget it, either.

H2O Man

[calimary]

66. Pallas, you are a marvelous human being!

MAN. I turn my back for a few hours to take my kid somewhere and WHAM - there's a new Plame thread.

Imagine this: It's November 3rd. bush stole it again. You did nothing, one way or the other. Maybe something else always came up. Maybe you thought it wouldn't make a damned bit of difference. Maybe you thought you'd be shouting into a vacuum. Maybe you figured somebody else would take care of it so you wouldn't have to. So you sat this one out. And bush took it AGAIN. The PNACers remain in power with their megalomania pumping so hard through their veins that it's squirting out through their pores and tear ducts now. And you have (or your sister, or your brother, or your best friend has) a kid who's 17 and a half...

HOW WILL YOU FEEL? HOW WILL YOU FEEL WHEN YOU WAKE UP THAT NEXT MORNING AND HAVE TO LOOK AT YOURSELF IN THE MIRROR?

DO IT.

[robertpaulsen]

19. Just when I thought things couldn't get scarier.

The link isn't working for me, so I have to ask: these executive orders were never rescinded by Clinton? I would have thought Clinton, the only President since Carter not to have a God-complex, would have rescinded something so fascist.

In any case, I agree with your previous post on thread 5 that we have to have a 10 million person march on D.C. and we must start preparing for it now, just as our government is preparing for martial law now. How do we get the ball rolling on this? It seems to me sending letters to moveon.org would be the best way to spread this idea to the greatest number of people.

[robertpaulsen]

22. I found the link.

Just in case it didn't work for others:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1970879

Scary, but an extremely important read.

[Pallas180]

23. ROBERT if you have contacts with move.on, go ahead & send

them our letters and what this is about....

march planned ONLY if they steal the election;

or if they declare marital law

or if they have no election or major postponement

[robertpaulsen]

29. My co-worker hosts parties for moveon events.

She knows about DU through me and has a lot of moveon.org contacts. I've told her about these threads and when she comes in tomorrow, I'll ask her if she's read the Newsweek article and that if there is any way we can stop this, we have to get prepared and organized now for the possibility.

A 10 million person non-violent protest. I believe we can do it!

[LibertyorDeath]

111. "we have to have a 10 million person march on D.C."

That is one Powerful Idea.

I'd come from Canada for this.

Seriously. I'd bring Family & Friends

Charter a Bus. Concerned Canadians for Democracy

I know many people in the local Community Justice

groups.

I'm sure we could organize this.

[Pallas180]

135. Hi LIBERTY. How lovely of you. I like your slogan a lot. Why

don't you e mail it to some of our Senators and Congressmen:

"When Fascism comes to America it will come in the form of anti-fascism" - Huey Long.

I think it would be helpful if you would let our friends and family
know how Americans are fighting this and concerned, but

Hold on. We'll let you know if and when we're going to physically organize. Keep your e mail open.

Some of your Canadian police force has been down here for the G-8
lock down "crowd control", you know.

I know Cretien was not fond of this administration at all, what position does your new PM take?

[LibertyorDeath]

141. Will email Senators and Congressmen

That Canadians are very concerned about what is occurring in the US

especially the idea of suspending the upcoming Election.

We managed to hang on to a minority Liberal Federal Government

up here but our New Prime Minister Paul Martin is the former Finance

Minister for the Liberals & leans much more to the Right.

As an example he is the owner of Canada Steamship Lines & has the

company registered of shore in the Bahamas in order to avoid paying

Canadian tax. Remember this was the Finance Minister of Canada

not a good example IMO.

Unless it's political suicide he will do what Bush wants IMO.

[swag]

155. I'd be there. I love DC, having lived there 10 years

Just make sure you go to the bathroom before you leave on your trip.

[Pallas180]

168. Welcome SWAG & WAIT. We're not going anywhere yet until

we see
1) if they postpone elections

or

2) if they declare martial law

or

3)if they obviously steal the election

so get your e mail going, and phone and do the letters we've outlined
above to your local paper, or news station, or Congress rep and senate
or anyone you think will get the snowball of impeachment moving.

If what we think is true, those bad people in the WH will have
different living quarters.

:hi:

[starroute]

26. This is an area where we could make common cause with the right

Both the Paleocons and the libertarians have been freaking out about this FEMA stuff for years. I don't think an outright alliance is in the cards. (There's a wide gap between most of us and the Paleocons on abortion and gay rights, and between us and the libertarians on economic issues.) But it certainly wouldn't hurt to send letters to appropriate right-wing publications or test the waters at non-Freepish right-wing message boards and try to get a dialog going.

[Pallas180]

28. STAR - I am well acquainted with Conservative Republicans

there is no compromise with them.they are rabid and believe everything that Faux news broadcasts.

To contact them will only throw a 1000 monkey wrenches into any plan for a march and possibly bring down undesirable consequences.

But this is not a discussion that should be openly on thread.

Feel free to du mail me.

[starroute]

43. I don't mean the Fox News Republicans

I mean the skeptical ones, the anti-war ones, the ones who have their own doubts about this government, the ones who value liberty above patriotism.

There are plenty of them out there and to make common cause with them over shared concerns is not to compromise ourselves in any way.

Don't try to narrow this down to your own experience and your own personal view of the world. There are a lot more possibilities in the situation than you may be seeing, and to close any of them off prematurely would be foolish.

[merh]

321. Pallas - will you download threads 5 & 6 so we can save to

word or PDF? I have 1-4 but not 5 yet and 6 will end soon.
Hope they start 7 in the very near future, long thread are hard to move around in.

Thanks - love your posts and all your efforts.

[7th_Sephiroth]

2. i havent been paying attention

are indictments out?

[kohodog]

7. Nothing new in that respect...

But it's been an experience keeping up with all this.

It's a bit cumbersome going back to earlier threads and going through them, but worth checking.

[7th_Sephiroth]

8. please no more threADS

until indictments are out, thats all i care about

[Pallas180]

18. Sephiroth, if you'd been following you'd know this is about more than Plam

It's too bad you haven't realized that because this has been an
education for everyone posting and reading here.

We're sorry that you don;t want any more threads which you haven't
had the time or interest to read, but a lot of us, including me, do
want to learn and digest what is happening in this country and what
we can do about it.

See ya around kiddo.

[7th_Sephiroth]

34. i understand what its about

but if no indictments, or just a scapegoat is indicted, i dont want to be too emotionally invested and be upset

[Pallas180]

36. Honey, we're all emotionally upset - the indictments are just a way

to get rid of the administration.

If that doesn't work..you need to think " SAVE AMERICA. for your own
future.

[7th_Sephiroth]

37. i have my own plans incase this illegitamate maladministration gets

away with treason, i'm not THAT worried

[Prodemsouth]

5. Could some one who has been active on this thread- update and

provide some key points that have been made.

[Lestatdelc]

10. WIlson and Senate report

The newly released Senate Iraq Intel report which was just released says that there was a person in the CIA Coutnerproliferaiton Division (CPD) the division that Plame was in, who asserts that Plame DID put forward Wilson's name for the Niger trip, and provided a document that parrots the WH "putting" claims which Novak published. However if you read the report, it states that this was the only source with a memo making this statement dated Feb. 20, 2002.

If find it extraordinary that Wilson's own wife would not have vetted the content in his book and allowed such a statment(s) by Wilson to go out that she did not put his name forward. Yet the Senate committee bought this singular CPD source (who is a records clerk BTW).

All that said, this does not, in any way obviate the severity of the outing of Plame and the destruction it has caused. This is just a back-burn to provide political cover to discredit Wilson, and "vindicate" the Novak publishing and leak. This is of course still only for political, OPR "vindication" purposes as the criminal and seriousness of the culpability of the outing are still valid. This discrediting of Wilson's story about how is name was put in play for the Niger misson, in conjunction with clining to the British White Paper fiction about African uranium is going to be the administrations attempt at an escape hatch publicly.

The INR and CIA know that the NTh.iger and Africa uranium is total nonsense. Aside from the documentation that was finally brought forward for the entire Niger claim being forgeries, there is ZERO sense for Iraq to even SEEK yellow-cake. It had hundreds of tons of yellow-cake IN-COUNTRY, prior to the IAEA departure of inspectors in '98. There was ZERO need for Iraq to seek yellow-cake at all. The ONLY resigns to bring up claims that Iraq was seeking yellow-cake at all was to provide "evidence" that Iraq had, or was seeking a weapons program. But it is trying to hype something that is entire a moot point/issue. The CIA did NO follow up on this after the Niger trip because it made zero sense. the CIA and INR both were discounting it, because it made no sense, neither does ANY of the British White paper on this subject because Iraq already had all the yellow-cake it needed before 98 (all the claims of Iraq seeking new yellow-cake are 99 onward).

This entire issue is bullshit and is a prop to fabricate evidence that Iraq was seeking a nuclear program.

This is why the CIA focused (even though that was a dead-end also) the aluminum tube leads. Because the INR, IAEA, CIA, all knew that Iraq had vast amounts of yellow-cake in country, but still let this chestnut gain legs in public statements.

This is, in other words a political PR noise maker to distract and attempt and a public CYA "vindication"... nothing more.

Eyes on the prize folks.

[Lestatdelc]

45. No commment?

Thought this would have generated SOME reply.

Curious as to what others think on the matter?

[H2O Man]

62. Sometimes "no comment"

actually means no immediate comment. I read with interest your previous posts. I think that it shows what a complicated situation already may have existed in Iraq. It also seems to provide more evidence that the administration had other issues involved in the entire Wilson/Plame series of incidents.

I am curious if you have any information that shows that Wilson may have been aware of the other yellow cake supplies?

[Lestatdelc]

105. Nope

From what I gather from Wilson's accounts and what I have culled thus far from the Senate Iraq Intel report which was just released the other day (have not read it all by a long shot) but I don't think Wilson had knowledge about any other supplies.

But as the Senate report DOES show, we all knew Iraq had enough yellow-cake for a weapon program in country before 1998. This alone shows how nonsensical the assertion that Iraq was seeking to gain yellow-cake on the black market as stupid. Even the CIA didn't follow up beyond Wilson's debriefing on the matter since they all knew that it made no sense. It made (and makes) sense from the political and PR POV, in other words to make Iraq seem like a gathering threat and sell the nuclear WMD pre-text for war, but from an on the ground reality, made no sense what-so-ever.

This is why the CIA was trying to make something of the aluminum tubes. Because the uranium ore angle was a moot point. That ship had sailed more than half a decade ago.

[robertpaulsen]

51. Thanks for drawing my attention to this post, Lestatdelc.

You gave me new info I was unaware of. Iraq already HAD yellow-cake?! What was the point of the whole Niger trip, if not to set up Wilson as a patsy for a failed policy regarding the justification for war in Iraq? Things in some aspects are clearer, but it also provokes more questions.

Why single out Wilson?

Was it because they knew Plame had smoking-gun dirt on Cheney?

Was the "sting operation" Plame was involved in deal with anything of a nuclear nature?

[Lestatdelc]

107. That's the real question

The yellow-cake charges (that Iraq was seeking it) was and is a total red herring. Its ONLY purpose is to make a political/PR case for panting a picture of a rapidly merging nuclear threat in the public perception, but this was really nothing at all.

We knew since the mid 90s that Iraq had over 500 tons of yellow-cake in country. It was at the time being monitored by the IAEA.

Not sure if the Wilson tripe was a set up for taking down Plame, or a really stupid grab at a twofer.

But the IAEA (which is UN) the INR (State) the CIA all knew that Iraq had more than enough yellow-cake for an enrichment program.

This is (tip o' the hat to Hitchcock) a political/PR McGuffin. It is re-cycling old news to make it seem like an emerging threat. There is no "there" there in the entire rationale for a clandestine program by Iraq to buy more yellow-cake.

[robertpaulsen]

140. Bush's rationale for war was a series of McGuffins!

Thanks for resurrecting the Hitchcock lexicon, although in dimson's case it would have to be a post-McGuffin, since he was using the same McGuffins his FATHER used which were recycled old news the first time around! He used weapons of mass destruction against his own people! Never mind that we tried to shift blame to Iran, or that we kept funding him even after the truth came out.

Outing Plame to silence Wilson was definitely a bungled twofer, but again I have to go back to Joe Klein's article in Time and wonder, what was the significance of the "sting operation" that Plame was involved in regarding WMD trafficking?

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/printout/0,8816,1101040705-658343,00.html

Then I remembered an article I saw on commondreams.org:

US Unloading WMDs in Iraq


TEHRAN (Mehr News Agency) -- Over the past few days, in the wake of the bombings in Karbala and the ideological disputes that delayed the signing of Iraq's interim constitution, there have been reports that U.S. forces have unloaded a large cargo of parts for constructing long-range missiles and weapons of mass destruction (WMD) in the southern ports of Iraq.

A reliable source from the Iraqi Governing Council, speaking on condition of anonymity, told the Mehr News Agency that U.S. forces, with the help of British forces stationed in southern Iraq, had made extensive efforts to conceal their actions.

He added that the cargo was unloaded during the night as attention was still focused on the aftermath of the deadly bombings in Karbala and the signing of Iraq's interim constitution.

The source said that in order to avoid suspicion, ordinary cargo ships were used to download the cargo, which consisted of weapons produced in the 1980s and 1990s.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0313-08.htm

I think that even if the Bush misadministration was stupid enough to believe their own rhetoric in the buildup to war that there were "stockpiles" of WMD, the fact that Saddam did not use any to defend his country when the US invaded should have clued them in to the truth that there were no WMD. Is it possible that they tried to plant WMD before this year and that Plame was part of a "sting operation" to stop Cheney or Rummy from accomplishing it?

Just a theory.

[Pallas180]

143. RobertPaulsen - I remember news that Kuwaiti stopped trucks

recently,American Army, loaded with WMD stuff going through Kuwait
and Kuwait wouldnn't let them get through.

My first thought, like you, was that dummy and rummy were trying to
plant the missing WMD in Iraq.

But in addition to your report, it makes me think they're putting WMD
there for their own use.....to be threatening to neighboring countries.

??

[robertpaulsen]

156. Good theory: set-up for Iran invasion in 2005.

The motives may change (I think the majority of Americans are more upset over the escalating death toll in Iraq than the missing WMD justification) but the result is the same. The US does have WMD in the Middle East at their disposal, and since Iranian media is reporting it, then obviously the Iranian government is aware of this threat.

It's really a great two-fer: they can either have a late October Surprise (See the stockpile? We were right!) or hold the threat of it over Iran as they prepare for a 2005 invasion. Or both, if they're really full of hubris. (IF?! I know, I know).

Was this the article you saw?

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0413-02.htm

[Pallas180]

178. NO, RP. I recall it being in standard news, perhaps Guardian

but not an online type of newspaper.

Nevetheless, it says the same thing.
You are terriffic at finding that stuff.

Always good to have the back-up as we are now being accused of
conspiracy theories.

When we're posting verifiable news and place and time that WMD are
being imported into Iraq, instead of exported, it's hard to see how
some people could be saying we abound in conspiracy theories and
paranoia.

Thanks

[robertpaulsen]

195. Thanks Pallas.

A lot of my research is going to my usual favorite sites, sifting through bookmarks I saved here, and when all else fails, googling. Glad to be able to contribute and that what others call conspiracy and tinfoil, I call news. :)

[AgadorSparticus]

239. I think the reason this thread works and is so dynamic is that it

allows us to think freely for a bit without fearing what we might look like with negative connotations from labels or belittling of ideas and people. A think tank in every sense.

Unlike bushco who TOLD people to find links to a predetermined conclusion, I prefer to not have ceilings on thinking and the process of learning. Web sites and credible sources have been repeatedly cited. The discussions here have not been just pure speculation. But in any investigation, there is always a degree of speculation.

But as H2Oman wisely stated, ultimately, it is personal responsibility to discern information.

If you had told me 3 yrs ago that democracy will be hijacked in America, I'd thought you were crazy. If you had told me 4 yrs ago that the WTC in NYC would be attacked and collapse at the hands of terrorists, I'd never have believed you. I am not willing to subscribe to JUST conventional thought as we are not living in conventional times.

I thank everyone who has the courage and has contributed to this thread. It has been an eye opener, to say the least. I hope the ideas and the LETTERS continue.....

[robertpaulsen]

282. A think tank! You nailed it!

We're all contributing something of value here. If one piece of evidence answers one question, it usually raises several other questions that someone else can fill in the knowledge gap on.

Check out my letter if you get the chance!

[wurzel]

124. Not vetting Wilson's book is not a crime. Outing a CIA agent is!

Nor is putting his name forward a crime either. What kind of red herrings are these?

[robertpaulsen]

17. Two questions:

First I'll repeat a question I asked on thread 5. When does James Pavitt's resignation take effect? I know Tenet's takes effect today, but not sure about Valerie Plame's boss.

The other question is regarding the possibility that in order to save the misadministration in the midst of this impending scandal, they may resort to martial law (using a Reichstag Fire terrorist attack around election time as a pretext, of course).

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5411741/site/newsweek/

How would they be able to enforce martial law when our military is stretched so thin that we have to resort to IRR to fill the stop-gap in Iraq? Tellurian answers this in thread 2, post 266:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1920799#1925471

"It just occurred to me why they are amassing so many mercenaries there

20,000 is a very large number of rouge soldiers..

You all may not want to hear this...

but they are amassing them there to bring them here..

For when Bush declares Martial Law throughout the land!

This is Bush's private army. The one he asked for the moment he took office and was denied!

The Reich Stag Fire.."



Thanks Tellurian, I think a lot of people have missed this, but I think you may be right. My question is how many mercenaries are there in this country. If there's 20,000 just in Iraq, how many does Blackwater and all the other "contracting" companies have in this country total? How can we stop these neo-Brownshirts from bullying the rest of the populace into submission?

I believe that Pallas180 called for a 10 million person march on Washington if there is any funny business with OUR election. I support this wholeheartedly. No more pelting the Presidential limo with eggs forcing him to run to the White House for safety. WE MUST SHUT DOWN THE GOVERNMENT NON-VIOLENTLY and prevent that scumbag from physically being able to get near the White House!

[H2O Man]

21. With all due respect

our goal should never be to "shut down" the government..... that was Newt G's tactic. Our goal should be to breathe new life into our government.

There is no way -- NONE!!! -- that disruptive tactics could be helpful in the very serious situation we are now confronted with. None. Don't go in that direction..... because it is a trap.

I will say that in order to convey the correct message -- to the country and to the world -- I would enjoy seeing a million very well behaved people, representing the American family in all of its diversity, either quietly praying if they are so moved, or quietly reading the Constitution.

A massive disruption will only lead to violence, death, and destruction.

An orderly movement will lead to the promised land.

[robertpaulsen]

24. No disrespect taken, H2O Man.

I take your words very seriously. When I said "shut down", I want to be clear that I am advocating MASSIVE NON-VIOLENT protest. I realize that violence begets violence, that direction is, as you say, a trap.

But why wouldn't a sit-down protest, which is both non-violent and disruptive, be a step in the right direction? I love your ideas of prayer and reading the Constitution, but how can we stop the Bush misadministration and make this truly a government of the people, for the people and by the people again?

How can we SUSTAIN an orderly movement that will lead to the promised land?

Is it possible to be non-violent and disruptive?

[Crachet2004]

44. I agree with you, H20...MLK showed the way.

Peaceful protest, nonviolence...in large numbers, is the only way to go. I like the image of a million people reading copies of the Constitution, en masse...

[kohodog]

25. H2O, With all due respect...

And I sincerely mean that as you have earned my respect with your insightful and knowledgeable threads.

I agree with you on a non-violent approach. But a million people praying will give them they're laugh of the century.

One hundred million not going to work, Wallmart, the gas station, etc will get their attention. Especially if we're not going because we go to our town green, park, or city hall to sit down and talk amongst ourselves. (yes, I am a product of the 60's sit in's).

A simple question, what would Ghandi do?

[Pallas180]

30. "One hundred million not going to work, Wallmart, the gas station"

Amen. :)

[Pallas180]

47. "No Vote, No Work" slogan already from another site:

"Call your Congressman and let him/her know that you want the November election to go on whether there is a terrorist act or just the threat of one"

Well they've got a good idea there. We're not the only ones who this
has suddenly dawned on.

[H2O Man]

50. No vote -- no work

seems a creative response, certainly no implied violence.

When King started the famous bus boycott, some of the wealthy white folks told their "hired help" that they would be fired if they participated in the movement. The black women told their employers that they weren't participating in the movement .... but they would just avoid the buses until the trouble stopped.

That was a creative response!

[H2O Man]

53. I am sure that Gandhi

would consider a coordinated effort at not working to be a creative response.

I also love the sentence "But a million people praying will give them they're laugh of the century." You have, with that wonderful image, convinced me that this is potentially a more powerful weapon than even I had considered.

Also, I appreciate your "simple question" .... what would Gandhi do? And I am confident that you know it is indeed a complex question. One of the advantages of having books, both by and about Gandhi, is that we have the opportunity to actually commune with him .... and ask him what he would do? Do you remember that beautiful scene ion the movie ... where Gandhi is sitting .... and watching the ocean, wondering what on earth he should do? ..... and then the inspiration for the salt boycott comes to him!

Of course, they laughed at Gandhi for a while, too.

[kohodog]

56. to pick up on the salt concept

Perhaps we should send Bush a mollion pretzels! Wasn't it a children's movement that sent rice to the White House because of their stance on China and people starving? I think it actually changed policy, but my memory isn't clear on the facts.

Certainly a creative nonviolent response is required as we are in a quasi police state and to fight fire with fire is folly.

[Pallas180]

27. H20 - no one is speaking of violence. If 5million people go to

DC, not much is going to be moving. Move-on, and million women march has never been known for violence.

However, Essentially it does shut down the city.

If it shuts down the governemnt that's too bad.

They then may not have the money to pay the private contractors,
brownshirts, nazis to take over the country as enforcers.

After all, these people never spend their own money, they spend
taxpayer money.

Time is short. Some sites are being hacked by rethuglicans and brought
down, as you will read on other threads.

Organizing should not be done on this thread.

Anyone interested in organizing a march should please contact me for an invitation to a separate site for organizing a march ONLY IF IT IS NECESSARY IN THE CASE OF MARTIAL LAW, OR NO ELECTIONS, OR THEFT OF ELECTIONS.

And the most immediate thing to do is send out those letters printed
above to every congressman and senator so that they know we know and are active.

[coeur_de_lion]

31. you GO, Pallas! H2O, I'd really be interested in what you would do

if indeed martial law comes down in this country.

Do you think we should stay home, read the bible, read the constitution? Or march? Why do you say a peaceful protest is falling into their trap? I really respect your opinion and I'd like to know.

[Pallas180]

35. ARBUST. March. Sit. Wave the Constitution & Bill of Rights

Stand in front of the Capital and WH for however long it takes. As if you're at a funeral. Have a bugler playing taps for the death of
America, and a drummer playing muffled drums...100 bugles, 100 drummers.

AND WAIVE AMERICAN FLAGS. AS A MATTER OF FACT WRAP YOURSELF IN AN AMERICAN FLAG TO KEEP WARM AS WELL AS WAIVING ONE.

Be Yugoslavians and overturn the dictator.

h20 says a peaceful protest is falling into their trap so you'll have
to ask him that question.

[H2O Man]

49. Malcolm X used to say

that if you want people to drink medicine that is good for them, you don't put a skull & cross-bones on the bottle.

I believe that we are in a position now, where our country is in a semi-police state. Many of you have expressed this on here already, especially my good friend Pallas ..... and I think we agree that this "patriot act" is in significant part a furthering of that erosion of the Bill of Rights.

In response to this level of threat to what I believe is our national treasure -- families and individuals living in a democratic society -- I have clearly recommended exercising those rights so well defined by that Bill of Rights.

And so your question, if I understand it properly, is what will I think is wise in so far as a strategy if a full martial law is declared? My guess is that if that happens, and one hundred angry people march in a manner that could be interpreted as "threaening" on Fox News, then you'll have one hundred dead protesters. And this administration will have Sean Hannity justify their violent actions on his show before those 100 corpses are cold.

Likewise, if there are 100 organizers planning to "shut down" a city --any city -- they will be spending an extended amount of time in a boot camp in rural America. And I am not joking.

But, if you have 100 people reading the Constitution, or any of the holy books from the different systems of belief, who are dignified and non-threatening ..... they may laugh .... at first. But pretty soon there will be another 100 dignified and non-threatening people, reading the Constitution, or one of the good books. And that movement has within it the potential to grow.

The first movement ends with 100 dead. The second movement is forced into a suspended coma-like hibernation. But the third one heals.

Will it mean that some people will suffer? Yes, certainly ... there is no route available now that will not include some sacrifice. And no one should feel forced by "peer pressure" to endure that .... it has to be by choice.

And that time may come.

But -- right now -- we are not there, and we have numerous options available that can help us avoid that fate. So let's concentrate on them ..... and be very careful about the words we use on the DU forums. This, of course, is merely my opinion: I thank you for considering it with an open mind.

[coeur_de_lion]

55. I don't think Pallas meant to say there would be 100 people, Pallas is

talking about a huge crowd. Certainly 100 people marching wouldn't be worth it. I think Pallas wants to organize a sizable (peaceful) demonstration.

Are you advocating sitting home reading the Constitution? And the Bill of Rights? Not going to work? I am not sure exactly what you are proposing.

"This, of course, is merely my opinion: I thank you for considering it with an open mind."

You should know by now that we always respect your opinion, H2O.

And you are right, meanwhile, before things get really ugly, there is much to do. We need to pray that all we need to do is write letters.

We most definitely already live in a semi-police state. You have to remember that Pallas lives in FL, where it is my belief (since I live here too) that things are worse here than they are in other places. We have the brother of * in charge here. If you so much as hold up an anti-war sign at a baseball game you are spit on, kicked, arrested, and held without charges. We are scared and angry.

Always we appreciate your input, and would love to hear more.

[H2O Man]

58. Yes, my friend ....

when I say "100 people," I do not intend to say that in a literal sense. I am using that number for a slightly different reason .... to convey a specific idea .... as in 100% of the people on one course would be killed outright; and 100% on another course are going to be jailed. And the important thing to realize is that while we have absolutely no intention of submitting to any dehumanizing process, and will not allow any enemy of democracy to take control of this country, we do not want to turn it into a war zone. It's sad to think that this is even a very real potential ...... but it's good to know we do not need to go in that direction.

[coeur_de_lion]

61. okay. n/t

[Pallas180]

89. Essentially H20, you advocate doing nothing because if we

were to gather in Washington DC, if I understand you correctly,
we will be either machine gunned down and/or what is left will
be jailed.

So what you are saying is that we must do nothing and let them continue.

But we did nothing when they stole the election last time, and that
allowed them to get in the position they are in. A Fascist police state with the citizens of this country being occupied or in
lock-down, permanently.

Do I understand you?

that here's our choice:
1) live under dictatorship of the neo-cons, with conscription of our children, or

2) protest non violently and be killed and jailed.

[Pallas180]

90. By the way, H20, a grandfather escaped the Czar in the 1890's

in order to avoid the ongoing conscription.

What country is there left anymore for those who don;t want to live under a czar?

[H2O Man]

123. That's an interesting question ......

I remember in 1980, when I was at an associates, watching a boxing match on tv .... and the conversation was in large part about the upcoming election. A couple fellows favored Reagan. I didn't know all the people in the room, and so I said very little .... until someone asked me a pointed question. I was opposed to Reagan. A person (who surely did NOT know me) said, "Oh, than YOU'RE FOR CARTER!"

Yikes!

As if there were only two possibilities! Rather than debate the merits of Reagan v Carter, I explained that it is possible -- even desireable -- to think in terms not limited to two choices. Our choices are not limited to a graph of "1 to 10, with 1 being do nothing and 10 being revolution." Our choices are not even a circle .... they are a sphere.

But let me get back briefly to that night of boxing .... people were anxiously awaiting the "main event." The undercard was perhaps boring to anyone but a boxing purest. And so the fellows flipped through the channels, and found a movie about a fictional boxer, complete with scenes that were closer to professional wrestling than boxing. But it made the Reagan fans happy indeed.

I like some boxing movies. Have you seen "The Hurricane" with Denzel playing Rubin "Hurricane" Carter? Well, Rubin is a close friend. And I know the difference between the hell he went through on a movie, and the real-life hell he endured. He went to prison not for murders, because the police knew who actually committed that crime. He went to prison for 20 years for his outspoken advocacy for change, at a time when the system wasn't ready for the ideas he was talking about.

During those years .... especially in the "Buddha" years of Rubin's "changes," I became convinced that we are never limited to only two choices that our enemy puts in front of us.

[Pallas180]

130. H20 - Some people live in their heads-the world of ideas & thoughts,

it's a lovely place to be, but can be limited in outward accomplishment; it's commonly called "living in the ivory tower".

Some people live completely in the material world,
(depending on your outlook); it can be a lovely place to be,and they accomplish in the material world but they are unaware of the beauty and peace of the spiritual and metaphysical life;or of the harm they cause in their quest for the material only.

and some people practice spiritual and metaphysical disciplines but are also of the material world. These people are able to act upon idea to bring it into material manifestation. Their ideas and actions are usually meant to benefit not only themselves but others, and for that very reason their efforts are usually successful in both realms of the material and spiritual.

In my view the last is the best to be.

[H2O Man]

136. Interesting, very interesting .....

I made note of my good friend and brother Rubin, who spent 20 years in the NJ prison system. About half of that time was spent in solitary confinement, in a small dark cell under the ground. Other times were spent in the Vroom psychiatric ward, merely for the ideas that were in his head. I mention that to you again, as a stark contrast to the "ivory towers" you mention ..... and it's not the long arm of coincidence wrenching itself out of socket, my friend, it is the harsh cruel reality of what can -- and indeed DOES -- happen to people with certain ideas .... especially if they express those ideas in certain ways.

I am lucky that I am in neither that ivory tower or that dreary dungeon. All of my efforts in the political-social-cultural struggle in which we all find ourselves, are geared towards one goal: positive results. And for a variety of reasons, I focus on reaching long term goals by way of a series of short term goals! (smile) And that's why THIS WEEK I am focused on the Plame letters .... although I respect and admire those who are writing or planning other ventures. My needs call for the service of a reliable workhorse, while others may need a race horse.

One of the most basic skills in organizing in such a way as to get objectives accomplished is to start with relatively small goals .... such as 100 letters. (smile) Almost always, there will be people who want to increase the goal. Many years ago, a young Malcolm X wanted to move faster. Elijah told him the story of the man in the old touring car. We've all had the experience of seeing one, perhaps getting behind it on the road, and wondering why the driver didn't go faster? The answer is if he did, the car would fall apart. But if the driver takes his time, and reaches his destination, he'll get in that newer car. And then he can drive faster.

[Pallas180]

138. H20 - Smiling. You have such a wonderful writing talent & such

wonderful parables. :)

[American liberal]

144. who are you, waterman?

sorry, but my journalism training always has me considering the source. I find your rhetoric to be interesting. But who are you? What about you lends credibility to your words? What is YOUR agenda?

[H2O Man]

154. Who I am .....

...is of no significance .... or at least I would hope. If you look at what it is I've said on here .... then you can judge for yourself if it is worthwhile .... or not. My "agenda" is very small .... merely to have people consider the possible implications of the Plame grand jury investigation. I am curious ..... when you use the word "rhetoric" .... if you are using it in the original Greek meaning... or if you have some other "agenda?" (smile) Dang that old style journalism training! I occassionally suffer from the same thing!

Listen: I do not want ANYONE to think that I -- as an individual -- lend credibility to that which I say on here. Because if anyone looks to another person to lend credibility to a point of view, and their understanding hinges on that ..... then the goodness of the truth hasn't taken root within them. And so I encourage everyone on here to think for themselves. Does that make sense, my journalist friend?

I'm not sure if you've read the earlier threads .... but I've given the sources of a large number of the ideas I've expressed on here. Even the idea, which I repeat over and over, that we should ask "Why?" more than "how?" (and I'll toss in "who?"!) comes from Col. Fletcher Prouty, who wrote a book called "JFK" and is the actual person behind "Man X" in the movie "JFK," played by Donald Sutherland, who meets Costner on the park bench.

Does this answer your question? Look forward to your response! Peace.

[Pallas180]

157. Well now AMERICAN LIBERAL-I have a pretty good idea of

who and what H20 is.

But we don;t know who you are.

41 posts?

Journalist? Wanna tell us which publication. We've often noticed
that many articles seem to follow some DU threads, even to almost
quote word for word.

On the other hand, we fully expect that we are being monitored by
what we would call " undesirables" :)

So to quote you: " What is YOUR agenda?"

[H2O Man]

161. My friend Pallas180!

Do you think that "American Liberal" is going to answer either of us? Kind of interesting, isn't it?

[Pallas180]

163. H20 - what is interesting is that this thread has attracted the

kind of attention it has.

I dont think any of us knew it would go as deep as it has,
but with all these wonderful brains working (I say that
seriously) on the puzzle and adding pieces, we seem to have come up with some very plausible understanding of what is going on behind the
"walls and halls of power".

And drawing that kind of attention perhaps is not necessarily a good thing, as I'm sure you understand. Soon we will be accused of being a tool of a certain community - and all the work you and the others have done will be denigrated. I'm getting so motherly in my old age. And I know you also want to protect your students here.

So - H20 would you mind throwing in more quotes of Mark Twain,:) Martin Luther King, and perhaps Julian Bond ( who at the NAACP meeting declared war on the dummy's administration today)? Even Charley Rangel who I adore. What a great mouth on him!

[Pallas180]

181. H20 It was Julian Bond who I saw on the news, and

Infume of the NAACP.is kind of apologizing for his words.
I really liked what he had to say. Why do people always have
to apologize for telling the truth?

[American liberal]

169. fair question, Pallas

I'm a born and bred Democrat who comes from a long line of progressives. My parents were very active in the civil rights movement. They counted among their friends people such as Big Bill Broonzy, Pete Seeger, and Studs Terkel (who recently spoke at an event honoring my parents). Although I was too young to remember, Fred Hampton has been to our house before he was gunned down in cold blood. I have done volunteer work to promote peace with Bernardine Dohrn (head of the long-defunct Weatherman Underground) and Rev. James Bevel's (former prez. of SCLC) ex-wife Diane Nash and at one time worked with their son. My agenda is to become more educated as I promote world peace. I do not, however, accept everything at face value, especially when it comes from the Internet.

It seems that many of you have placed waterman on a pedestal and accept his word as gospel. My training (I never said I was a journalist, Pallas, so be careful about jumping to conclusions), my upbringing, and my nature compel me to question everything. Please do not confuse that with trying to negate the validity of what is being posted by H2O man, just that I like to know where people are coming from--especially when presenting such thought-provoking information.

Although I wish I COULD say I am a top-notch journalist for a prominent left-leaning publication, I am just an editor for a direct marketing company that promotes healthcare issues for hospitals and managed care companies. Quite innocuous and rather unromantic, eh?

I have so few posts for the following reasons: (a) I am very busy, (b) I am more about learning than promoting an agenda, and (c) sometimes I am very turned off by this site and put it to the side for long stretches. I have never read so much based in paranoia and conspiracy theories, hence I take what I can and leave the rest. I have actually been a DU member longer than H2O man (who said he's been posting for only about 7 months). I just don't post as often. In other words, relax.

Where we do agree is that the current admin. has done an amazing amount of damage in a very short period of time (not including the so-called "Bush Doctrine," which promotes the right to preemptive strikes. that was created over 10 years ago) and I will do whatever I can to make sure he does not win another term.

Please let me know if you would like any more credentials. I actually am tickled that you suggest that I am an "undesirable." It's like I said on another thread, the paranoia and conspiracy theories bandied about this site creates paranoid people. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. I suggest you get outside and take a walk, talk to your neighbors, and maybe plant a tree or flower. Not everyone is out to get everyone.

Peace to you and yours.

[Pallas180]

176. Well AMERICAN LIBERAL,smiling, that did nothing to promote

warmth and confidence in your desirability :)

By all means, anyone is free to bathe themselves in the "paranoia
and conspiracy theories bandied about this site" along with the
rest of us.

"It seems that many of you have placed waterman on a pedestal and accept his word as gospel."

Mr. Harry Too better known to you as H20 has the facility of drawing out questioning minds in the Socratic method. I wouldn't say he has been placed on a pedestal as much as shown a deference for his obvious knowledge and talent in the presentation of such knowledge;
those very same attributes which made you suspicious enough to ask " What is your agenda?"

"The conspiracy theories bandied about this site" are 90% drawn from
published articles in what used to be called the news media in this country.

We're glad you're enjoying them.

[American liberal]

186. geez, Pallas,

because I don't automatically embrace what you and others promulgate on this site renders me an outsider? I am as much, if not more so, of a progressive than many people who subscribe to this forum.

<anyone is free to bathe themselves in the "paranoia
and conspiracy theories bandied about this site" along with the
rest of us.>

<We're glad you're enjoying them.>

Isn't that rather hypocritical? You challenge people to educate themselves on the issues and stand up against the status quo. Yet, if I don't agree with everything I read here, I am "undesirable," not one of you? Don't you see that that kind of attitude is exactly the same as the freepers we abhor?

One of the things I love about the Left, which is one of the things that can keep us fragmented, is that there is room for more than one opinion. We can agree on concepts, but not necessarily agree with how to reach our goals, or even what the goals are.

I misread what I called putting Mr. Too on a pedestal. I acknowledge your your response re: deference to his level of knowledge being closer to the truth.

I will continue to lurk and post occasionally, which is about the best I can do right now. I'm home sick today with a cold, which is why I even got to spend as much time here as I did today. I'm a little jealous of those of you who have the time to devote to furthering your causes and missions.

As I said before, I will take what I want and leave the rest. I hope, however, we can remain united in our efforts to dethrone the "emporer."

Peace.

[Pallas180]

191. AMERICAN LIB - sorry you're sick and sorry you feel unloved

but sweety, you can't attack a bunch of people who have worked very
hard to draw information from all over the net, american newspapers,
english nespapers, and every written source they can find, including
published books, and tell them they're nutty tin foil conspiracy
theorists.... :) and not expect to get some rather sarcastic reply
from the den mother. :)

You don't have to agree, but you don't have to attack, and you definitely don't have to call names. If people found out you were
a "liberal" and started talking to you in the manner of Rush Limbaugh, would you like it?

There's room for different opinion, but presented as,,,I don't see it that way, how about this: _ _ _ _ _ _ _?

One of the lovely things here on this particular thread, and it usually transfers to new posters who join the thread is a respect for each other and a speaking to each other kindly, even fairly kindly while we are disagreeing.

Flaming has been done once or twice and not gone over really well.

As far as sounding like the Freepers, American Liberal, I've thought
that for about a week. While Clinton was in office they were going
crazy expecting him to declare martial law. Why, I don't know.
His administration never ever mentioned it.

In this case, Ridge the FEMA/HSA guy stood up for two days and talked about postponing the elections because of attack. Hello? What attack and when were the national elections ever ever "postponed"

No wonder we got paranoiac and are ready to defend our democracy, or what's left of it.

And, when I used to teach AM LIB, that is exactly what I told my students: take in what you can use, and leave the rest. Something that you hear may click in and have meaning later.

Hey, it's an open free thread. We'll be interested in hearing anything you have to add....but play nice :)

[American liberal]

199. and maybe you...

need to get a thicker skin. I would not call my posts "attacking." If that's how I came across, I apologize.

I certainly do not respond well to sarcastic "den mothers." Your kind of crap is what turns me off from this site in the first place. I have tuned in and read several threads that were nothing BUT flame wars--the issues be damned!

I DO think some of the theories I have read at this site are over the top (some of the stuff that was being posted after Woodward's, then Clarke's, books came out, for instance--much of what was speculated never came to pass.)

I do appreciate much of the real research that has been done and posted here in the name of progressive politics. I think I have actually posted some useful information myself--when I can. But, honey, if you want people to "play nice," maybe you should do a better job of making them feel welcome.

Again, I apologize if you took my criticisms personally and felt I was attacking you. It was not my intention. I will try to be more diplomatic in the future.

Peace.

[kohodog]

203. my two cents

This thread has valid points and some not so valid points, but it needs to be looked at from the perspective in which it has been created. Many of the points made can and should be refuted, but an overall mural is being painted from the input of many.

Have you ever seen a painting by Chuck Close? or for that matter looked at a newspaper cartoon through a magnifying glass? The individual marks make no sense until you back away and see the whole.

AmLib, take a step back and realize we are not so stupid as to take everything here literally. I have contributed some thoughts that may have relevance and some that may be pretty dumb. But eveyone's contributions, including your's, are framing something quite interesting.

Please try to look at this whloe thing from a different point of view and see if you can see what's happening here. Those of us who have been here from the beginning recoginize the tendaency towards conspiracy theory, but that is not what this is about. It's about seeing the direction events are taking and trying to prevent them from dehumanizing all of us.

peace

(edited for typos)

[coeur_de_lion]

182. Now, now -- let's not be picking on my friend H2O

We are grateful that he's here. None of us are really comfortable revealing our "true identity."

H2O has some startling insights, as well as a clever way of getting us all to think more clearly about this issue. Plus, read his posts! He is a thoughtful person who would never belittle anyone else, or demand to know another person's identity.

You can search all through of his posts and you won't find him acting the smart alec or disrespecting anyone's opinion.

Y'all simmer down, now. We are all nice folks. You are certainly welcome here. Put on your tinfoil hat and have at it. Or leave your tinfoil hat off and don't have at it. Either way you're welcome, as far as I'm concerned.

[Pallas180]

184. ARBY, I would be honored to have such a good friend as you to

protecct me.

:hi:

[coeur_de_lion]

202. LOL! Silly Pallas. n/t

[American liberal]

190. I'm not picking on your friend

To the contrary, I find H2O Man to be quite eloquent and insightful. I am very sorry to hear about the car accident. It makes my blood boil! What happened to H2O Man is one of the reasons I do not even OWN a cell phone. It's a technology that supposedly keeps us more connected as it completely distances us from what is going on around us.

I am intrigued by Mr. Too's ideas, which makes me want to know more of the "source." I'm not asking for his name, more about his background. And I HAVE been reading the posts, which is why I want to know more.

Thanks for the welcome. I mostly lurk, when I have time. Today, I am home with a cold and have had more of an opportunity to check in and say hi!

Peace.

[coeur_de_lion]

200. It was really in jest, Amurkin liburl

Sorry. Bushified your name. I was jsut teasing. You are most welcome. I am so sorry you have a cold. :-( Make sure to eat lots of soup and tea and take hot baths!

And welcome to our nightmare! I lurked for a long time on & off too, befre starting to post. Don't know why.

This thread has held my attention for over a week, now. That's amazing. I'm not one of our experts, just try to dig up articles when people mention them and what not.

Do take care, hope you feel better real soon!

Arb

[H2O Man]

205. Yet you still have not responded

to my response to you.

And I will politely suggest that anyone could get on here and give a phoney cover, saying their mom and pops was friends with Freddie H before he met his fate ..... and if that is true, good for your mom and pops. But Fred died long ago, and so what is more important -- at least to me -- would be if an individual were to say that they admired what he stood for, and were to discuss what Fred thought about. But, again, that's just me.

I recognize that my ideas are of no more value than anyone else's. I have expressed a degree of admiration for the Constitution. I respect the history of this nation, and want people to realize that the Bill of Rights is of great value.

I have quoted and foot-noted a significant % of my contributions on here. If you have a specific question in regard to anything I have placed on here, I am almost always more than happy to discuss your concerns.

I'm impressed by Joseph Wilson. Here's a quote for you to consider: "This Bush administration operates on the principle that it is acceptable, and indeed desirable, to shift the debate from the issue to the person, to divert attention from the facts ..." (pg 341)

Perhaps that's why some of the people responded to your attempt to shift this conversation from the issues discussed to my person. No matter what your motive may -- or may not -- be, my identity is of absolutely no significance ..... though your request that I identify myself to you, to meet your undisclosed need, is of interest.

I'm still hoping you take the time to respond, and let me know exactly what it is that I have said on here that upsets you. Fred would certainly have done that. We can talk like two adults.

[Pallas180]

211. Hey Mr. Harry Too! What do you think of dimson refusing to appear

at the NAACP function?

What kind of message is that?

Reminds me of what the charming James Baker III said. F ___ the Jews, they never vote for us anyway.

And I haven't heard any excuse why? does anyone know?

Do you suppose it's because they honored Bill Clinton so?

I was hoping they would replay what Julian Bond had to say on
C-Span, or does anyone have a transcript?

I thought it was a wonderful rant. But that's me. :)

[H2O Man]

215. Julian Bond is an honest man.

I think that any president should show some respect for the NAACP as an organization, and appear before it. There have been some strongly worded attacks on this president's policies. If he is indeed the president of all the people, he should welcome the opportunity to get up in front of his critics, and deal openly with their concerns.

But he and his handlers know that would mean he would have to be quick on his feet. They are probably concerned that Michael Moore would use tape of his talk in his next film.

I notice that our one friend continues to avoid speaking with me, much in the same manner.

[Pallas180]

219. Harry Too-let us talk of interesting things. Dimson. Actually it has

just come to me why dimson possibly hasn't appeared.

"he should welcome the opportunity to get up in front of his critics,"

dimson cannot bear to see any protests or anyone expressing an opinion
he doesn't like. That's how "the first amendment zones" came to be, and I understand he travels with 700 security.

Have you ever heard of anything so outrageous? First Amendment Zones -
areas where citizens are penned in 2 or 3 miles from where he will appear so that he won't see them or their signs "=ush Lied, People Died". They are allowed to express their opinions only in those zones and if they come out of those zones, well you know.

And then, do you realize he never appears ANYWHERE that isn't an army
base? Think about it. He feels safe on army bases. Those are the only places we've ever seen him.. And that's probably another reason why he won't appear at the NAACP. I wonder if they moved to an Army base would he go then?

He knows about "Tecumseh's Curse", the 2000 election was a 0 year. A government agency contacted a very famous astrologer who I had some
"correspondence" with to verify if what their astrologer had told them
was exact - dates of danger for the boy who would be king.

Apparently he has a lot of fears. I guess he must know how these things are done. hmmmmm?

[H2O Man]

221. I thought maybe he had a cold.

Lots of those going around this July .... at least in certain circles, and on certain pedestals. (smile) Still curious if the one person is going to respond.

I'm hoping that in the morning we can stir up some interest in other areas of DU in doing some letter writing. I will also contact some friends and associates from other walks of life.

[American liberal]

223. I apologize for not responding...

It was an oversight. I guess I was too busy responding to all the attacks from the "den mother."

And I don't mind telling you I feel more misunderstood among people whom I thought I most identified with than ever. Maybe it's the medium: Too many opportunities for misinterpretation in e-mail and online discussion groups.

H2O Man: I am not "upset" about anything you posted. I guess I am mostly intrigued by the "deference" you are shown here. I have not posted to this site in a while. I never saw your "handle" before today. You post a lot of what many may consider controversial talking points that people here seem to lap up. It is in my nature and training to "consider the source." It doesn't mean that your posts upset me or that I even disagree with what you have posted. I guess I was responding more to the dynamic of the relationships here. Honestly, I meant no disrespect by asking you to disclose more information about yourself--plus other members were suggesting you were interviewed on TV recently. I'm intrigued. But I certainly wouldn't suggest you blow your anonymity.

I am very sorry to hear about your accident. As I mentioned in another post, I don't own a cell phone largely because it takes me (and others) out of the moment. I think driving and talking on a cell phone should be restricted.

The reason I even mentioned Fred Hampton and Bernardine Dohrn is because I recently rented the Weather Underground documentary. The irony is not lost on me that there is a parental warning attached. I was barely out of diapers when Hampton was assassinated. The video showed footage of the bedroom where Hampton was murdered in cold blood--the Black Panthers were hosting tours of the site. It was horrific to watch: the blood, the bullet holes in the wall, the loss of a brilliant young leader--I did not remember he was only 21 years old when the cops killed him. What a waste.

But that is my legacy. When I had a big 'fro, I was told I looked like Angela Davis. The recent recognition of the 40th anniversary of the signing of the Civil Rights Act (July 2, 1964) struck a chord for me. I am proud of my heritage and cherish it.

I have read most of the six threads relating to the upcoming Plame indictments. Maybe I broke in inappropriately and should have taken more time to absorb the implications. I guess I am not as patient as you and wanted to get to the bottom of it all. And you were the obvious place to start because of your "visibility" and how much others on the threads respect your opinion and posts.

Again, I didn't intend any disrespect. I'll have to check in this weekend and see how things play out.

Peace.

[TacticalPeek]

225. To be fair and balanced,

Bobby Rush and John Lewis are now US Congressmen.

Bwaahahaha!

The wheel turns. :)

[Pallas180]

227. TP - I know of John Lewis, but who is Bobby Rush?

attitude - running wild - if you know what I mean.

I'm not good with attitude.

end of rant.

[TacticalPeek]

229. An old SNCC hand. Some of our best citizens are old SNCC hands.

During the Civil Rights Movement of the 1960's, Congressman Rush worked to secure basic civil and human rights for African-Americans, women and other minorities. He was a member of the Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee (SNCC) from 1966 to 1968. Congressman Rush was a co-founder of the Illinois Black Panther Party in 1968.

While a Black Panther, he operated the Panther Party's Free Breakfast for Children program. He also coordinated the Free Medical Clinic, which developed the nation's first mass sickle cell anemia testing program. This visionary Panther initiative forced America's health care providers to recognize the impact of sickle cell anemia on the Black community and to develop national research into its causes, effects and solutions, a practice which endures to this day.

http://www.house.gov/rush/about/bio.html

[Pallas180]

230. Aha.Thank you TP. Here's some of what google has on Rush

" Rush joined the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, working to help the civil rights movement. He left the Army in April 1968, stunned by the slaying of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and troubled by the stark racism he encountered in the military. On November 17 Rush helped found the Illinois Black Panther Party and became its deputy minister of defense.

Of the Panthers, Rush said, "Some people have a perception that's totally in error." The Panthers eventually moved away from militancy and toward peaceful goals such as achieving full employment for blacks. He said, "We had an ideology program. We were a disciplined political organization of young people who sought to empower poor and oppressed communities and the black community."

In 1974, as the Black Panthers began to nationalize in Oakland, Rush chose to stay in Chicago, "

What happened in Oakland?

[TacticalPeek]

235. An outsider's view:

success, cointelpro and the inherent problems of leadership in a peoples' movement. (To be glib)

google cointelpro oakland panthers

[Pallas180]

249. Thanks TP - googled-& conincidence, Rep. Rush on C Span

asking Hastert for help to stop genocide in Sudan.

right, Dennis Hastert.

[H2O Man]

226. Ah, Angela ..... she had some

beautiful and long hair when I last spoke with her ..... in I believe 1991 .... in upstate New York.....

Young lady -- if indeed you are a young lady -- I sense that you are not a fool ..... and that you have at least a passing interest in language ..... but you still have not answered my question about your use of the word "rhetoric" ..... or, again, explain the use of the word "agenda" .......

Were I to walk into a neighborhood where I was unfamiliar with those who appeared to reside there ..... I would probably not approach anyone, demand that they identify themselves, make reference to rhetoric, agendas, or even pedestals.

The use of these terms implies that something I said ..... if it was not to the level of upsetting you ..... (or even if it did) .....at least appears to have, say, caught your attention. Again, if there is anything specific .... please .... feel free to address that with me. I'm not concerned, even if you are a right-wing agent who dislikes what I say ..... or a left-wing agent who dislikes what I say. I'm pleased to have the opportunity to discuss or debate anything I've said.

I would, however, request that you make a sincere attempt at being respectful, if not polite. There are no "den mothers" on here, nor is there any need for insulting people. We can all afford to show each other respect.

[American liberal]

232. for the last time...

I did not mean any disrespect. This is my forum just as much as any of yours. As I mentioned to Pallas, I've been a member here for longer than you say you have been. I just do not post as often because I am VERY busy! I do not consider this an "unfamiliar neighborhood." I have lurked often, posted little.

I used the term den mother tongue in cheek because that is what Pallas called herself. You guys really need to lighten up.

As for my use of the word rhetoric, I was referring to the 2nd definition used in Webster's 3rd Edition: "language that is showy and elaborate but largely empty of clear ideas." and for that I already apologized because I admitted that I may have jumped in too quickly after skimming those six long threads rather than waiting for the implications to sink in.

I have already explained what I meant about agendas and pedestals, too. Really, I have never been accosted by any of my posts the way you and the den mother have jumped all over my shit. Maybe you could suggest to your buddy that she practice the same sort of respect you request that I display. OK?

Ya'll take care now. Time for me to get some sleep.

And for the record, I'm not that young, but am flattered you called me so. I turned 41 this year and am decidedly a hetero female.

Peace to you and yours.

[H2O Man]

245. Angela's Ashes ......

Now I am confident that I can safely call you "Young Lady" ..... because 41 is young! And that is not rhetoric, nor is it a compliment or insult. Assuming that your description of yourself is 100% correct -- and we have no reason to think one way or the other -- than you are a 41-year old who still lists your parents as your credentials, people you have met as your pedigree, and have not really told us you opinions on much at all .... except that you are a "decidely hetero female." (smile)

But before you get upset -- either again or for the very first time -- let me assure you that I am not "jumping on your shit." Or on your being! My goodness, I couldn't possible even jump! (grin) But that is merely the physical, and is of no importance to our conversation. My friends on here are likewise not interested in jumping on anyone, and I am hoping that -- no matter what your agenda -- we will all be mature enough to carry on this conversation as adults.

On a more serious note: I am not ever offended by anyone, even you, asking frank questions. In fact, I respect that questioning spirit (which Pallas180 & the others have, if you read all these threads closely!) ..... much like a ship's captain has the moral obligation to avoid a shipwreck, a civilized person has the same moral obligation -- not only to his or her self -- to be skeptical and to demand proof of any and all claims of fact .... because in the final analysis, my young friend, all tyranny rests in fraud and deceit .... in jackals convincing people to accept a false assumption (or outright lie) on face value. That being true, any person -- young or old, black, brown, red, yellow, white, tall, short, etc etc --ANY HUMAN BEING who suspends that QUESTIONING SPIRIT has, at that very moment, literally betrayed all of humanity.

Now I hinted at this yesterday .... in my first response to you .... which you still haven't responded to .... that my goal is not to promote my person .... I have no interest in that .... but rather to promote ideas .... I'm sure that you are familiar with Buddha's teaching: "Be ye lamps unto yourselves. Be your own reliance. Hold to the truth within yourselves as to the only lamps." The idea expressed there includes the truth that no one should try to convince another of anything on a forum such as this ....because if a person's beliefs depend upon the beliefs of someone else, then they are held together by external means and outside influences. They haven't grasped the goodness of the truth within .... and there is nothing more merciless than the logic of truth alone....

"Prove it!," you demand? Well, those who have not had that truth take root in themselves tend to FOLLOW LEADERS, for lack of better words. And that leds to republicans trusting bush to the exact degree that a crowd trusted Jim Jones in Guyana. Or you mentioned Fred Hampton, and what happened on 12-4 at his Monroe Street apartment ....

If you see Angela, tell her that Oren's cousin Waterman said hello. That will take her back in time a little to an incident at Wounded Knee. You can ask your parents about that! (grin)

Behave! And is there something you'd like to say to Pallas180?

[coeur_de_lion]

269. Off topic -- very good book, that. Did you read it?

I read that one and "A Monk Swimming" by "Angela's Ashes" author Frank McCourt's brother, Malachy. Not as good as Angela's Ashes. But very funny in parts.

Read "'Tis", by McCourt also. It seemed to me like he had written both books as one, it was too long, and he split them in half. Or something like that. Love McCourt.

[tjfreeman]

96. on non-violent civil disobedience

:hi: Pallas!

For a number of years now I have had students in my Introduction to Philosophy classes focusing on the problem of non-violent civil disobedience. I have them read Thoreau's famous essay which, IMO should be required reading in this country. One of the most powerful points in that class is when I show the video "The Promised Land" which is one episode in the outstanding PBS series "The Eyes on the Prize" on the civil rights movement. That episode covers King's last year beginning with his dramatic coming out against the Vietnam War in the spring of 67 and through the following year and his attempt to moblize the great poor people's march on Washington. Then, of course, he gets sidetracked to Memphis to lead a march in support of the sanitation workers strike. The march ends in failure as people do not remain non-violent. Windows are broken and blood runs on the sidewalk and they wisk King away and the march ends in complete failure. In the next scene there is an interview with Rev. Abernathy's wife and she reports that she never remembers King more disconsolate than in the days following this march. Here he was trying to organize the nationwide march on Washington and he couldn't get this one march in Memphis to stay non-violent. A week later he returns to Memphis vowing to defy the court injunction against another march, gives that unforgettable last speech, and the next day is cut down by assasin's bullets.

I was a ten year old kid living in Memphis at the time and I'll never forget that week. All of this was running through my mind on November 30, 1999 as I sat blocking a doorway to the WTO meeting in Seattle. I had at the last moment decided to take a more active role and yet ironically ended up in a safer spot on the sidewalk blocking this doorway. But my line of sight ran straight out along a wall of protesters who were standing in front of a large inflated blue whale we had beached in the middle of the intersection. The police formed a phalanx and were marching straight down toward the wall of protesters. I kept thinking of King and Memphis and just praying that people would be able to hold together. As the police marched forward the whole crowd began chanting "No Violence! No Violence!" and "This is what Democracy Looks Like!" and "The Whole World is Watching!"

I was never so proud to be an American then. For everyone did exactly as they had been trained to do (I was impressed by the non-violence training sessions they had been running all week). In the face of the police batons, everyone just held hands and sat down continuing to chant "No Violence!" No one responded with the slightest hint of violence. The police batons crashed down on the wall of protesters and the police broke through just a little bit and bayonetted the whale. They didn't realize the whale was kept inflated by a small air compressor the owner had wheeled along and so the whale didn't deflate but just sagged a little. The police were surprised and retreated. The crowd, probably numbering 400- 500 at that intersection erupted in cheers.

A little later the police came back this time with full SWAT gear on, gas masks and all. The captain got out his bullhorn and told everyone they had five minutes to clear the intersection. Up to this point there was still not the slightest hint of any violent protest. Everyone was perfectly and bravely putting into practice Thoreau's great theory. No one left the street. The police then opened fire, yes, that's right...they opened fire with rubber machine guns and tear gas cannisters. I saw the bullets strike the people right in front of my eyes. One woman was hit just above the eye and probably missed being killed by an inch. The gas filled the street and everyone tried to get as low to the ground as possible. Still the blockade held and still the protesters remained non-violent. Over the next couple of hours the police tried several assaults and still were not able to dislodge the wall of protesters. Some would be overcome and leave the street but others quickly took their place.

At one point I thought the arrest was imminent. I could have put my hands down behind my back and touched the police boots. "Get on with it!" I thought. This was why we were there after all. We expected to get arrested. That is what non-violent civil disobedience is about. But someone did not want that headline "Two Thousand Arrested in Non-Violent Protest of the WTO." Suddenly the police vanished. It was about noon as I remember. Up to that point, no one had reacted violently to the violence of the police. But then I guess the black hooded anarchists started turning over dumpsters and lighting them afire and breaking windows of the GAP and Starbucks. Out of 2-3 thousand protesters who took part in that civil disobedience there were probably 30 black hooded anarchists who blew it in my opinion by engaging in property violence and thus enabling the press to report the event as a violent protest.

The next day I sat in on Jim Hightower's radio program and he had a guest on that claimed to have seen men in suits paying black hooded men money in a park that previous morning. Those who spoiled the efforts of so many were either misguided or paid provocateurs.

My point is that non-violent civil disobedience is really, really difficult to pull off, especially in mass movements. It takes just a few to undermine the efforts of everyone else.

If they really pulled off canceling the elections I really don't know what recourse we would have. It would truly be a nightmarish scenario. For one thing, if they did do this, it would only be in response to some terrorist stike, right? Perhaps one that they would even arrange for or at least allow to take place (like with 911 I'm sure). In that climate could we really imagine a large peaceable revolution? A million or more converging on D.C.? It would be so easy for them to turn it into a bloodbath. Our only hope would be to make sure it never gets that far. We have to find out a way to pre-empt their plans to steal the elections.

[tjfreeman]

98. photo from Seattle WTO

this was approximately my line of sight:

[Pallas180]

112. TJ - Thank you. I followed Seattle Even Labor marched & was shocked at

the behavior of the police. Yes, It was obvious just a small group started the problems and as you say it came out later they were provocateurs.

When I was in Savannah at G8 I saw and was outraged at what they have prepared for any protestors. I'm well aware that they're looking to provoke a confrontation. And I wrote a piece on DU to try to warn people what could be expected when they go to these protests hoping people would do things to protect themselves and prepare.

And I have stressed again and again non-violence, although you and H20 are right, it won't matter, because the jackbooted get a group macho mentality and become violent, they're pumped for it.

I saw first hand. I know. People may get hurt in a protest in DC.

But more people are going to get killed and hurt in the streets of America if they succeed in no elections and installing a full police state and dictatorship. Our streets will look like Baghdad.

"Our only hope would be to make sure it never gets that far. We have to find out a way to pre-empt their plans to steal the elections."

Yes. Agreed.

But I don't think they're going to wait for the elections to declare.

What do we do, take an ad out ? Buy air time?

Actually that may not be a bad idea.

An open letter to the New York Times -

Who knows George Soros? {:

Thanks TJ. I agree they have to be stopped now, and I'm very upset.

I think it would be better a million sitting in the street in protest, showing we won't accept such actions and giving some "powers that be" the impetus to do the right thing; because I can see that the next step will be citizens warring in the streets against such a dictatorship and citizens don't have the equipment they do. That will be the real bloodbath.

Or we can hope for some general or some CIA who won't let them make
a dictatorship out of this country. But would they intervene if they saw the people didn't care and were accepting the Nazis?

I don;t think so.

Unless some authority in govt. steps in, we the people have to stand up for ourselves.

It's chess. Strategy. You look at all the possibilities. Our favorable possibilities, right now, are very limited.

[Pallas180]

133. H20 and TJ - You know you both have a different experience

because of your race than other posters on this thread.

First please understand there is no offense meant to you and I would
have e mailed this privately but for unknown reasons that is not a possibility, so this publicly:

I had a friend 15 years or so ago who was a very high official in a
government department (now retired and I wish I knew where he was because he could certainly be of help).

He was a very large, imposing, and authoritative black man. One day he was driving through New Jersey and was stopped by the police. Why? Because he was black and driving a nice brand new white Chevy Impala.

He quietly submitted to their questions and search. And when they realized who they had, they were close to soiling themselves and couldn't have bowed and scraped more.He related the story quietly to me without rancor or bitterness; for him it was just another fact of life of being a black man.

If a black person and a white person were to stand together in a protest who would be more likely to be assaulted and jailed? Especially if it was a young black person?

I'm well aware of the injustices of this society and have been a part of the fight against such injustice more than once in legal forums.

My point: your view, your outlook, your reaction and strategy is colored (no pun intended :) ) by your experience as a black person in this society because that experience and jeapordy is realistically more than white correspondents on this thread.

[tjfreeman]

145. protest strategy not colored by race

Pallas I think perhaps you jump to unwarranted conclusions about race. I was a 10 year old skinny white kid in Memphis when King was killed and it still affected me profoundly.

There is certainly no argument about who would most likely be assaulted and jailed if a black person and white person were both together in a protest. Actually, on second thought, in Seattle I really don't think it made a difference. It does make a huge difference, outside the protest lines, in "normal" society--your example of the "Driving While Black" case is a good illustration. But my experience in Seattle (and I would definitely be interested to hear other perspectives of that event) was that no distinction was made among the multi-colored protesters--we were all one color--rainbow. When they got around to making arrests--the day after the shutdown--they arrested people en masse, whole blocks of people. Martial law had been declared and any group of people larger than 25 was in danger of arrest. They arrested many innocent bystanders who just happened to be standing in the wrong place at the wrong time.

My reaction and strategy is certainly colored by experience but not by race. I would certainly want to be involved in some sort of protest if they did in fact postpone the election. I am just stating that from my experience non-violent civil disobedience is extremely difficult to pull off and so easy to undermine. They will probably win if it comes down to massive civil disobedience in D.C. They will no doubt resort to overwhelming force to control the "unruly" crowd.

Again, I think perhaps our only hope is to pre-empt their plans which have now been made known. We have to protest now before there is another terrorist strike, before they try to postpone the election. We have to somehow make it widely known that if they do try to postpone the election then the terrorist have won. They would be giving in to terrorism if they let a terrorist strike, or even a threat of a terrorist strike, prevent the will of the people from being expressed on Nov 2.

Perhaps the best strategy would be to take a lesson from Thoreau. What if everyone on DU were to participate in tax resistance? This year I withheld a percentage of my tax in protest of the illegal war against Iraq. I wrote a long letter explaining why the war could not be considered a "just war" and thus why I was doing my "patriotic duty" in refusing to pay for it. I got a response back from the IRS which stated that they were "unable to process my request at this time" because of the "large number of similar requests." A little while later I got another bill from the IRS. I haven't paid it and don't plan to. I am not sure where this will lead. But I really think that we have no greater power than to withhold our tax dollars. But it really only likely would work if it were done on a mass scale. What if a million people were to pledge to withhold their taxes in protest? I wonder if all those who would be willing to march on Washington should the election be postponed were to withhold their taxes instead. Which strategy would be more effective?

[Pallas180]

152. TJ - You are absolutely right -and

please pay your taxes. You are right, the withholding of taxes and
all monies has to be done on a massive scale if they steal the election and declare martial law.

But TJ, pay the tax they want now, I think, so that they don't choose
to make you and a few others THE EXAMPLE of what they will do to people who dont pay their taxes in protest.

BTW - everybody should get a large amount of cash out of the banks
and keep in a safe place, cause those ATM's could be closed down.

Says so in the FEMA Homeland Security Thread.

One woman I know is advising to take cash out in Silver, I think she means silver dollars and quarters and so on, but I'm not sure. Are
we to walk around with silver bars? :)

FEMA and Martial Law says (I posted the whole thing in a separate thread on General Discussion today):

First they;re going to round up the Blacks - (not a good sign that he
won;t go to an NAACP meeting, the fool.)

Second they're going to round up Hispanics

Third they're going to round up Tax Protesters

Fourth they're going to round up plain ordinary civil disobedience Protesters

And the plan called for "detention camps" large enough to hold 21 million people. ahem, that was 10% of the population

From Robert Paulsen's post I understand they have about 12 camps built or contracted for in 2001.

Actually I couldn't read much more after that....I suspect that
in the end everyone will be put in camps except Christian Fundamentalists who believe God is talking directly to them.

And who wrote all this for the government? why none other than
Olliver North.


You said: " Again, I think perhaps our only hope is to pre-empt their plans which have now been made known. We have to protest now before there is another terrorist strike, before they try to postpone the election. We have to somehow make it widely known that if they do try to postpone the election then the terrorist have won. They would be giving in to terrorism if they let a terrorist strike, or even a threat of a terrorist strike, prevent the will of the people from being expressed on Nov 2. "

I agree with you. And at this point I agree it has to be done by phone and letters and emails to the Congress, and maybe in a personal
call to the Mayor of the Town and councilmen and so on.

Always good to let the locals know how you feel, cause we vote locally.

Thanks TJ for bearing with me.

[AgadorSparticus]

172. holy god.

do scare tactics really work? it just makes ME more determined.

if they cancel elections, i WILL be in DC and i will be there in FULL gear with bells on my toes. i will be the one with the pink motorcycle helmet, protective gear, peace stickers, and face guard on. and i will be sure to have my nifty video camera with me. peace.

[Pallas180]

183. A gas mask and a wet towel would also be helpful BEBE, it's

not scare tactics. They mean it. They shoot the rubber bullets
and pepper spray massively. There's pictures from Savannah too of
them in full riot gear en masse.

You've got the idea, helmet, protective gear, and lots of cushioning
around the body I think.

[robertpaulsen]

196. Welcome TJ! Fantastic & scary post & pic!

Just wanted to let you know I've read your post twice and think it's great. Keep posting here!

[tjfreeman]

241. here's another pic

thanks robert, I hope to keep posting...

that's one of my friends on that trip in the orange jacket

[Mike Niendorff]

333. provocateurs, no question about it.

The best evidence for this is the lack of *any* police response vs. these so-called "black-clad anarchists", coupled with the fact that they provided the police and the city with a much-needed PR-justification for police attacks against non-violent demonstrators.

In particular, consider the magnitude of the police presence that day. And yet *not one* undercover officer interfered with these "black-clad anarchists" in any way, shape or form. Local TV crews were able to film them for minutes at a time (particularly at "Nike Town"), but apparantly every undercover cop in the city just happened to be on a coffee break whenever these kids were around.

It's as blatant a case of phony provocation as I've ever seen.


MDN

[Pallas180]

32. H20 -If you haven't noticed Newt is with the AEI and has been

quite successful in organizing the disestablishment of the real
government of the United States.

[Occulus]

100. Ten million people with the Constitution in hand

all simultaneously chanting "We, the People!" over and over again.

GOD, I like that visual.

[robertpaulsen]

40. Googled military contractors, America - 600,000+ as of 2001!

Regarding the number of mercenaries that could be ENFORCING MARTIAL LAW:

http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=PMC

Private Military Corporations are also referred to as Privatized Military Firms (PMF)s, ... among other things, and could be considered an alternative to the Draft.

According to ICIJ, since 1994, the U.S. Defense Department has entered into 3,061 contracts valued at more than $300 billion with 12 of the 24 U.S.-based PMCs. More than 2,700 of those contracts were held by just two companies: Kellogg Brown and Root (KBR), a subsidiary of Vice President Dick Cheney's former employer, Halliburton Company, and Virginia-based management and technology consulting firm, Booz Allen Hamilton. The ICIJ report could not determine what percentage of these contracts was for training, security or logistical services because of the breadth of the services offered by the larger companies and the paucity of information provided by the Pentagon.<2>

The Pentagon does not even know how many contractors it uses. According to U.S. News and World Report, a preliminary report to Congress in April 2002 guessed that the Army contracted out the equivalent of between 124,000 and 605,000 persons in 2001. It is also hard to estimate how many people are working for PMCs because many of them are freelance contractors who may work for more than one of the PMCs. Often, it's hard to tell where the U.S. Army ends and a private company begins, as certain training programs run by PMCs allow retired military personnel to put their uniforms back on. One of the best known, privately held MPRI, based in Alexandria, Virginia, with over 700 full-time employees boasts of having "more generals per square foot than in the Pentagon."<3>



Anyone know anything about this site? 600,000+ seems like the tip of the iceberg. This site has lots of links and I'll keep posting when I find out more info.

[Tellurian]

52. Where the Bush WH feels inclined to float the idea of possibly

canceling/suspending the election..Tells me, they feel threatened by the outpouring of support going to the new team on the block, Kerry/Edwards. When you think about it, they (Bush, Cheney, Rove, Rice, Rumsfeld and Asscroft) are a small contingent of cornered animals fighting for survival.

Any marching/demonstrating/protesting whatsoever, would be playing right into their hands no matter what the intentions were. The Bush WH is looking for an excuse, any excuse, to declare Martial Law. If they see even 10,000 people marching peacefully on Washington, they will send operatives to make them look like violent dissidents..

It's way too late for marching.

Now that the neocons have risen to power, they have no intentions of relinquishing control.

According to the fema rules, elections can be suspended indefinitely. To us the word *indefinitely* is (should be) unacceptable. To the Bush WH, indefinitely means *eternally*.

What do I think should be done?

I think a Federal Court order should be sought by members of the Senate ordering the safe removal(of the top SIX of the Executive Branch of government) sequestering them in an undisclosed location indefinitely until a comprehensive investigation can be completed..(If the House Managers were successful with Clinton's Impeachment, there were plans underway to remove AL GORE as well, because he was under investigation for receiving illegal campaign funds) Gore was to be suspended, until the outcome of a full investigation and trial was determined.

Pro-tem (acting) co-presidents should be appointed. Probably, Colin Powell and Hastert (with the aid of the last duly elected president, Clinton) until the appointment of a new attorney general and duly elected president can take over the WH.

There is enough evidence out there already existing that the Executive Branch has become a threat to national security.

[robertpaulsen]

60. I like your idea of a Federal Court order.

I suppose my desire to see a 10 million person protest comes out of a sentimental wishfulness to actualize a Jim Morrison lyric, "They've got the bombs, but we've got the numbers". Then again, we are dealing with a misadministration Curtis LeMay would feel right at home with.

I have a question about your idea for a Federal Court order. Is this something the Senate could approve and have enforced with a majority vote, or would this have to be approved by the same Supreme Court that created this misadministration? Because as long as it doesn't involve them, this is a realistic possibility, especially after indictments do come out.

[Pobeka]

95. DING DING DING!! "suspension of elections is fear of Kerry/Edwards"

GREAT point. Awesome, this needs repeating, and often.

[H2O Man]

20. Sixteen Words: a brief history of the Wilson/Plame conflict

(based on information provided by Joseph Wilson's fantastic book!)
1-Jan 2002: First reports on Niger-Iraq uranium link surface in bush administration.

2- Feb 2002: Wilson is asked by CI headquarters to investigate possible Niger connection. He travels to Niger, and completes a thorough investigation. Wilson is one of the most talented men in US government at the level needed to do this type of job, and he did a very good job.

3-March 2002: Wilson debriefs CIA.

4-Sept 2002: First public mention of Niger-Iraq & yellow cake in British white paper.

5- Jan 28, '03: State of the Onion address by bush includes 16 words: "The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Niger."

6- March 7, '03: IAEA announces US documents on Niger link are forgeries.

7-March 8, '03: {A}State Dept spokesperson states "We fell for it" in reference to forged document.
{B} Wilson tells CNN that administration has far more info than State Dept acknowledged.
{C} After seeing CNN per Wilson, meeting held in VP's office: cheney, Libby, Gingrich & others begin "work-up" on Wilson to discredit him if necessary in future.

8-June 8, '03: Condi Rice denies knowledge of forged uranium document; "Maybe somebody down in the bowels of the Agency knew about this, but nobody in my circles." (Meet the Press)

9-July 6, '03: Wilson's op-ed "What I Didn't Find in Africa" in NYT; also, he appears on Meet the Press and details the case.

10- July 10, '03: Robert Novak tells a Wilson friend who Novak DOESN'T KNOW that Wilson's "a fuck" and that Plame is CI operative on WMD issues.

11- July 14, '03: Novak's column exposes Plame.

12- July 16, '03: David Corn, in "A White House Smear," (The Nation) explains the leak violates the IIP Act.

13-July 20, '03: NBC's Andrea Mitchell informs Wilson that "senior WH officials" called her to say the 16 words aren't real story, Plame's identity is.

14- July 21, '03: MSNBC's Chris Matthews tells Wilson he "just got off the phone with Rove ... He says, and I quote, 'Wilson's wife is fair game.' I will confirm that if asked."

15- Sept 28, '03: MSNBC reports Justice Dept begins investigation.

16- Sept 29, '03: Wash Post article by Mike Allen & Dana Priest quote senior admin official: "Clearly it was meant purely and simply for revenge." Details of two senior officials lobbying six journalists are given.

17- Dec 30, '03: Att Gen Ashcroft recuses himself.

18- Jan 21, '04: Time reports a federal grand jury has begun investigation, and is hearing testimony.

19- Feb 5, '04: UPI's Richard Sale reports: "Federal law-enforcement officials said that they have developed hard evidence of possible criminal misconduct by two employees of VP Dick Cheney's office related to the unlawful exposure of a CIA officer's identity ... The investigation, which is continuing, could lead to indictments..."

20- March 5, '04: Newsday's Tom Brune reports the grand jury has issued subpoenas for phone logs, including of Air Force One from July 7-12, from July 12 "press gaggle," and White House Iraq Group from July 6-30th.

Kind of interesting.

[FascistAdder]

33. H20, While we are studying the plame thing...

can someone here, perhaps you H20, speak on whether or not they know about any relationship between bush's cabal and these people and the events surrounding them?

Madiambal Diagne (Senegalese editor jailed)
Boris Berezovsky (said to have ties to chechen mafia)
Marc Rich (individual said to be tied to russian mafia)
Don Seaton
Charles Hayes

Also I would like to know what we might be able to find on this Russian forbes editor who was just bumped.

I've heard tales in the past about a lot of these guys being former military hacks that got together for some plan of world domination. Frankly its really tough to sort all these vipers out and which viper is with which. I almost think we need to develop and idiots family tree with a brief history of their criminal behavior.

[robertpaulsen]

175. starroute wrote about Marc Rich in thread 5

Post 237. Hope this helps.

237. Possible Viktor Bout connection with Marc Rich


I found I already had this in my files. It's from the LaRouchies, whose biases are pretty obvious, but I think this piece of information is probably reliable. The word "reportedly" in the story is a considerable hedge, though. I'd like to see something more solid on it.

http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2003/3001sharon_mafiya...

January 10, 2003

EIR's ongoing investigation into the Russian Mafiya's current drive to consolidate a vise-like grip over Israel, via Sharon's re-election on Jan. 28, has found that all roads, eventually, lead to Zug, Switzerland and fugitive commodity trader Marc Rich. If the Russian Mafiya has one "Godfather," it is Rich.

<snip>

Rich, for decades, had the exclusive foreign contract to market Russian minerals and precious metals; his Soviet and Russian ties also involved massive international arms sales—some recent deals, reportedly, in partnership with Viktor Bout, the most notorious of the Russian black market gun-runners, who shares a base of operations with Rich in the tiny Arab Emirate of Sharjah, a well-known smugglers' haven, adjacent to the money-laundering capital of the Persian Gulf, Dubai. Bout has been linked to major arms sales to the Afghan Taliban, and to Liberia's Charles Taylor and the murderous Revolutionary United Front (RUF) rebels in neighboring Sierra Leone. Rich, long ago, established Liberia and Sierra Leone as two of his major African bases, dealing in "blood diamonds." Further, Bout's arms sales to the Taliban were carried out with Vadim Rabinovich, Loutchansky's Ukrainian Nordex partner!

[H2O Man]

217. I know that Scooter Libby

was one of Marc Rich's principal attorneys. He worked on the Rich case in the mid-1980s. Libby, of course, is the cheney employee whoWilson believes leaked his wife's identity.

[TacticalPeek]

220. From disinfopedia footnote:

* See John L. Perry article that appeared in 3/4/01 issue of MaxNews.com: "Time for 'Scooter' to Scoot" : Perry identifies Libby as now "holding three high-level positions in the Bush-Cheney administration: not only chief of staff to the vice president, but also assistant to the vice president for national-security affairs and - now of suddenly increased pertinency - assistant to the president."

http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=I._Lewis_Libby


Guess I didn't realize he was also 'assistant to the President'. Fully qualified middle-man.

Bio
http://www.fpc.state.gov/8488.htm

[Wilber_Stool]

72. How will the rest of the world

weigh in on this? The only option for them,I believe, is a slow, calculated economic take down. Probably with treasury bonds.

[merh]

129. What are the implications if Congress based its approval of

HJ Res 114 (Oct 2002) authorizing the use of force in Iraq on the forged documents and faulty intelligence regarding WMD's and the yellow cake.

If you have read the resolution, you will know that Congress specifically listed Iraq's WMD's, the biological & chemical weapons as well as links to 9/11 terrorist attacks as the basis for approving the use of force in Iraq.

So, what if the forged documents were presented to Congress in Oct of 2002 and part of what Plame was working on would have provided the evidence to link the admin to the forgeries, wonder how that plays into all of this.

[floda]

38. here´s a translation of one of the forged documents

It´s in an article from warandpeace.com

http://www.warandpiece.com/blogdirs/000899.html




July 10, 2004
Matt Yglesias has a couple of interesting posts regarding reaction to the Senate Select Intel Committee report, the charge of "group think" at the CIA (as opposed to among administration hawks who cherished not only the conviction in the existence of WMD stockpiles in Iraq but fantasies of Saddam's intimate cooperation with Osama bin Laden as well), and lots of recent back and forth on the issue of whether and when Iraq might have sought to purchase uranium in Niger. To say I've been studying some of these issues a lot would be to vastly underestimate the amount of work invested. For now, let me just point out a couple things.

The gist of the push back on the Niger uranium issue in places like the FT can basically be summed up like this: elements of other European intelligence agencies, including in France, Britain, and Italy, thought there might be something to the allegation that Iraq might have been seeking uranium in Niger. After all, Iraq did acquire uranium from Niger in the 1980s. But nobody -- not even the FT which has been carrying water for those who are trying to blow smoke around this subject, or the administration-friendly Senate report -- is suggesting that the Niger uranium docs peddled in Italy in October 2002 were anything but counterfeit. Not even the Italians. Indeed, the Italians are desperately trying to distance themselves from anything having to do with the documents.

So, just keep in mind, that there are several stories becoming intertwined here, and it's not helpful. One story line is: did Iraq seek to purchase uranium in Niger in 1999-2000. A second story line is: what are the sources for this allegation, if true? A third story line, which should not be confused with the first story line, is: who tried to put into circulation the crudely forged documents that would seek to show Iraq had tried to purchase uranium in Niger in 1999. The first story line can be true or false without affecting the deception at the heart of the third story line.

Another point: Matt points to an interesting section of the SSIC report, that seeks to explain why the CIA and State Department analysts were immediately skeptical of whether the Niger docs were genuine. From page 58 of the report:

(U) The INR Iraq nuclear analyst told Committee staff that the thing that stood out immediately about the documents was that a companion document - a document included with the Niger documents that did not relate to uranium - mentioned some type of military campaign against major world powers. The members of the alleged military campaign included both Iraq and Iran, and was according to the documents, being orchestrated through the Nigerien Embassy in Rome, which all struck the analyst as "completely implausible." Because the stamp on this document matched the stamp on the uranium document, the analyst thought that all of the documents were likely suspect. The analyst was unaware at the time of any formatting problems with the documents or inconsistencies with the names or dates.


I believe this is a copy of the "companion document" that the INR Iraq nuclear analyst found so implausible.

When you read this, it is so laughably outrageous, so cooked up out of some utterly goonish central casting spook house (or else a really truly funny Saturday Night Live crew), it requires its whole own Senate report treatment. :

CONFIDENTIAL

REPORT ON THE MEETING REALIZE WITH THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THE PLAN OF ACTION "GLOBAL SUPPORT"

Our group, which met today June 14, 2002, at 4 PM in the residence of the Iraqi ambassador, via della Camillucia n° 355 in Rome has determined as follows:

The group directed by the ambassadors of Niger, Sudan, Iraq, Pakistan, Libya, Iran have decided that "Global Support" which is composed of specialists belonging to different military corps of the allied countries will be active immediately.

We are convinced that the high profession of the military belonging to "Global Support" are qualified with considerable experiences and very diversified in the sectors of defence and security and without a doubt they are responsible for the tasks assigned to them.

The Global Support (our group) is active worldwide, in all areas and extreme climates.

The competences of the members of Global Support are the following:

- Our support will above all be extended to:

governments subjected to an embargo;

governments continually suspected, and without just cause, of producing nuclear, biological, chemical weapons;

governments accused, without just cause, of international terrorism;

Islamic patriots accused of belonging to criminal organizations, to cells having non-existent ramifications;


Gee, you think the CIA might find something a little fishy about documents that basically purport to be the Rosetta Stone of all rogue Islamic countries taking notes of their meeting where they conspired together to forge a military alliance to defeat sanctions against fellow rogue regimes? A meeting supposedly held in the Iraq ambassador's residence in Rome, where surely none of the participating countries' ambassadors could have any inkling they might be under any sort of surveillance? And written in French that is not even correct? Glad the CIA caught that.

If it had been signed, P.S. We love you Saddam, it couldn't have been more cooked up, more staged.

But even in such outrageous forgeries, there are clues about the thinking of the deceivers. Both of the people who might have created such a document, and of those who tried to put a package of such documents into circulation. Hersh's theory that the documents might have been created by anti-administration elements who wanted to ultimately embarrass the administration willing to seize on them for a time seems not implausible, when one gets a glimpse at how almost comically outrageous these documents are.



Posted by Laura at 04:29 PM

[RainDog]

101. Talking Points Memo has some important info on faked intel

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/

TPM notes that France and Italy's belief that Iraq was trying to purchase yellow cake from Niger is based upon the SAME forged documents that the OSP used here.

so, all the supposed intelligence that people point to...hey, even France and Italy thought Saddam had WMDs was based upon the same INC bullshitters who coughed up what Cheney and Rummy wanted in order to pretend to have reasons to invade.

Bush, of course, is Howdy Doody on on pcp, who only wants to kill, kill, kill whenever Cheney pulls his strings.

And again, the assholes who are "investigating" this stuff, just like the sham of an investigation and now lies that blame the CIA for what the White House engineered via pre-war intel...these jerks AGREED, AGREED not to look at the source of the forgery until after the election.

If THAT'S not a reason to write a letter to your Congress person, I do not know what is.

They are allowing the Bush Administration to lie like dogs.

Our democracy is what suffers because of this.

Marshall has several good entries on the issue of intel about Plame and Niger.

[Lestatdelc]

104. Key question is the White Paper

Does this same singular (and bogus) source account for the British White Paper assertions about uranium purchases in Africa?

I would like to think so, but it seems the the British White paper also mentions attempts at Somalia, and Sudan (IIRC).

This of course is still a nonsensical "finding" since, as I mentioned before the IAEA, INR, and the CIA all knew Iraq had multiple tons of yellow-cake (enough for a weapons enrichment program) in country long before 1998.

[Wilber_Stool]

39. At least someone else knows.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/

"This is the most dangerous moment in American history.": A journalist asks the senators with US personnel dying every day in a bogus war, why is the rest of the report not going to be finished before the election.

[iconoclastic cat]

41. How credible are those people at ICH?

[Wilber_Stool]

42. They collect news stories

from major news sources from around the world. This one is a vidio. Would not load in my browser.
They are supported by donations.

[tjfreeman]

84. ICH is credible

I know, I know...I don't have enough posts here at DU to probably be taken as credible myself...but my two cents is that InformationClearingHouse is quite credible. I say this as someone who has been paying attention to that site regularly for over a year now. I do know that it is not "those people", it is a completely one man operation and I believe he could use your support.

[iconoclastic cat]

85. Cool. And welcome!

[Kool Kitty]

108. I think they are credible, too.

I get it every day and it is most informative reading. Welcome!:hi:

[milkyway]

46. From GNN 4/14/03: "Fearing FEMA"

http://www.guerrillanews.com/war_on_terrorism/doc1611.html

-------------
<snip>

FEMA and the Department of Defense began a continuing tradition of biannual joint exercises to test civilian mobilization, civil security emergency and counterterrorism plans. The Rex-84 Alpha Explan (Readiness Exercise 1984, Exercise Plan) showed that FEMA lead 34 other federal agencies, including CIA, FBI, and U.S. Treasury, in a massive civil readiness exercise. It was conducted in coordination with "Night Train 84," a worldwide military command post exercise, based on multi-emergency scenarios operating both abroad and at home.


The exercises envisioned that the previously mentioned 100,000 U.S. citizens, labeled "national security threats" would be rounded up and thrown into concentration camps.


FEMA came into direct conflict with the FBI, whose Director William Sessions forced Giuffrida to turn over more than 12,000 political dossiers FEMA had assembled on dissidents.


The FBI's power struggle with FEMA necessitated damage control. Attorney General William French Smith finally reined in the abuses. He publicly admonished Robert McFarlane, in a letter on August 2, 1984, "I believe that the role assigned to the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) on the revised Executive Order exceeds its proper function as a coordinating agency for emergency preparedness." He also protested, "the expansion of the definition of severe emergencies to encompass `routine' domestic law enforcement."

<snip>

In the summer of 2002, FEMA published a bid request for qualified construction companies to compete for contracts for three $6 million projects to create temporary cities that can house massive populations in the event of a disaster.

Published on conservative web site Newsmax, this news was dismissed by FEMA Spokesman Chad Kolton as "totally bogus." But when challenged by the publishers on the phone, Kolton confirmed the essence of the story. The camps and temporary cities are being planned, to be built in 2003.


FEMA says the sprawling temporary cities are being built to handle millions of displaced persons in the event of a large-scale terrorist attack on a major population center. Perhaps. Maybe FEMA has shed the yoke of its dark history. But considering the agency's legacy, is it so far-fetched to think it is not in some small way laying the groundwork to deal with those who dissent from our government's increasingly draconian program of permanent war?

[Pallas180]

48. Two Second Poll: Will they attack their own country to get elected=

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1971733

[Tellurian]

63. Absolutely right, Milky Way... You see..

The SCOTUS ruled against Bush just a week ago, before their summer recess. Cheney had petitioned the SC to allow US citizens who *they* declared (the 100,000 mentioned above in your post) as enemy combatants incarceration without due process or access to legal counsel.

Whatever Bush's intentions are right now, they have *not* been given full authority by the SC court. They were sure, they would have the full legal authority to operate unhindered by the law by now.

It appears they are preparing to take the shot anyway. Without the law on their side, because in essence after martial law is declared, they ARE the law.

Citizens will be virtually helpless for a very long time. Many will die fighting for their lives and their freedom. Most will suffer irreparable harm for the rest of their lives, if swift, decisive, action isn't taken immediately to thwart the uncalled for, illegal onset of martial law.

[RainDog]

102. This is such an important point.

and so chilling to read, and to know that, yes, this makes perfect sense...Padilla was a test case to allow "lettres de cachet" in America instead of due process and all those other inconvenient rights for dictators.

...and of course we already knew the desire to win this ruling, no matter what, was why they continued to try to influence the court with their unsubstantiated claims about Padilla just as the case was going forward with a press release.

if Bush declares martial law, can he arrest you for being too sick to go to work? or to go shopping?

because the prospect of this makes me ill.

[Pallas180]

113. It says they can take citizens for forced labor, among other things

written originally by none other than that sick bastid Ollie North

read it.

It's stark raving mad.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/fema.html

[Tellurian]

54. Where the Bush WH feels inclined to float the idea of suspending elections

..Tells me, they feel threatened by the outpouring of support going to the new team on the block, Kerry/Edwards. When you think about it, they (Bush, Cheney, Rove, Rice, Rumsfeld and Asscroft) are a small contingent of cornered animals fighting for survival.

Any marching/demonstrating/protesting whatsoever, would be playing right into their hands no matter what the intentions were. The Bush WH is looking for an excuse, any excuse, to declare Martial Law. If they see even 10,000 people marching peacefully on Washington, they will send operatives to make them look like violent dissidents..

It's way too late for marching.

Now that the neocons have risen to power, they have no intentions of relinquishing control.

According to the fema rules, elections can be suspended indefinitely. To us the word *indefinitely* is (should be) unacceptable. To the Bush WH, indefinitely means *eternally*.

What do I think should be done?

I think a Federal Court order should be sought by members of the Senate ordering the safe removal(of the top SIX of the Executive Branch of government) sequestering them in an undisclosed location indefinitely until a comprehensive investigation can be completed..(If the House Managers were successful with Clinton's Impeachment, there were plans underway to remove AL GORE as well, because he was under investigation for receiving illegal campaign funds) Gore was to be suspended, until the outcome of a full investigation and trial was determined.

Pro-tem (acting) co-presidents should be appointed. Probably, Colin Powell and Hastert (with the aid of the last duly elected president, Clinton) until the appointment of a new attorney general and duly elected president can take over the WH.

There is enough evidence out there already existing that the Executive Branch has become a threat to national security.

[Pallas180]

57. EXCELLENT IDEA TELLURIAN

"I think a Federal Court order should be sought by members of the Senate ordering the safe removal(of the top SIX of the Executive Branch of government) sequestering them in an undisclosed location indefinitely until a comprehensive investigation can be completed..(If the House Managers were successful with Clinton's Impeachment, there were plans underway to remove AL GORE as well, because he was under investigation for receiving illegal campaign funds) Gore was to be suspended, until the outcome of a full investigation and trial was determined."


How do you know what they planned to do with Clinton and Gore????

I've never heard that before.

Marching/sit-in only after they stop elections. There is no reason to stop elections;.

I agree, marching before would give them the excuse. Marching after
would not. They've already taken the excuse.

And just who would go to federal court? the same senators, not one of
whom objected to dimson taking office at the time the black reps requested just one senator to agree with them???

[Pallas180]

59. start calling up your Senator & Rep: NO VOTE-NO WORK

let them know now that there will be a nation wide strike if they
try to stop elections.

This definitely includes all Republican House Reps and Senators.

The phone numbers can be found up above in one of the Congress contact
threads or

use free phone number

1 (800) 839 - 5276 - TOLL FREE Capitol Hill Switchboard number! They'll transfer you to any House/Senate office you name!

[iconoclastic cat]

69. Also, "No Vote, No Spend." Imagine!

Imagine if nobody spent any money that day!

I include in this the following: no gasoline; no natural gas; no Internet usage; no TV viewing; hell, no electricity at all (use candles!); turn heat no higher than 60 degrees; no groceries; etc.

Basically, go camping. At home. For one day.

That way, there will be nobody in the streets holding things up; we'll stay at home and play cards.

Just think what that would do to the bottom line of the companies that are funding the fascists!

[robertpaulsen]

64. Once indictments come out, the Senators must act immediately.

I agree completely with what you said here:


I agree, marching before would give them the excuse. Marching after
would not. They've already taken the excuse.

And just who would go to federal court? the same senators, not one of
whom objected to dimson taking office at the time the black reps requested just one senator to agree with them???



So, once the indictments come through, we've got to get on every Senator and remind them of their missed opportunity in 2000 that they owe us for now. Do everything we can to stop the Bush misadministration BEFORE they declare martial law.

[Tellurian]

70. Yes...

I think there are enough Conservative Republicans and Demo Senators that
would sign on..The problem may lie with finding a federal judge who would be willing to take the chance on his name being forever linked to this historical event.

"Our country is at a serious juncture, and the stakes are high. It is always better to err on the side of caution."

[Tellurian]

67. I was there...all through the Impeachment hearings...

I worked on all the legality's and knew first hand what the plans were for Gore. I have 8 yrs of Constitutional Law training.

This is the Fourth time the neocons have tried to grasp power illegally.

....The assassination attempt on Reagan. Bush his successor.

....The Impeachment of Clinton and subsequent removal of Gore.

....The stolen election. Stolen from Gore.

....Another stolen election waiting to happen.

[Pallas180]

75. Well GOD BLESS YOU TELL! Cheezus this is really terrible

terrible.

Talk to us and me. Think it out.

I know the courts, investigator for your type, dear. Even won a case before the second highest Court in the land pro-se against an appellate specialist. Federal Second Circuit Appellate. Unheard of. (blowing my horn). Probably my proudest accomplishment. You get 5 minutes to present your case and your knees shake as you look up at that august group.

Go to court in DC and hit the wall of neo-con appointees, ultra-right conservatives indoctrinated by Silberman.

I respect all that you are saying, and I know you have total faith in our legal system. I now think it has been corrupted and decimated.

Please come up with an alternative in case I'm right about the Judges they hit, and the length of time it would take would give an excuse for the Supremes to interfere again.

Because of the time factor, we'd end up with the same thing that happened in 2000. Baker would show up and go to the Supremes. And we
know the end of that story.

At least if the vote goes on, we have a chance, however slim, to maintain a democracy. We can then make a stink about the machines, the ballots, recounts...and NOT allow the Supreme nonsense again, again by getting out in the streets.

My thinking.

BTW - Isikoff's article has been taken off Newsweek. Or I can't get it up - says this page not available.

News now talking about will the vote be postponed?

[Tellurian]

78. I have no idea what you are talking about! nt

[shraby]

73. Can members of the Senate legally

remove the top six of the executive branch with a Federal court order? And after the Plame indictments come out, should we start sending this request to our Senators?

[shraby]

76. How many Senators would it take

to give this to a Federal Judge?

[Tellurian]

77. Shraby...The Senate is a powerful branch of the gov..

If Impeachment proceedings are underway against Bush and the lot of them...this could possibly be the issue used as an excuse to thwart a pending takeover by martial Law. The Senate's National Security's Commission could be the arm that 'rocks the cradle' of the country.

[shraby]

82. I'm glad I have Russ Feingold for

a senator. I'll be sitting here with pen and paper ready to hit him with it when I see what comes from the Plame stuff. I'll probably be asking you how to word it so it's the most effective.

[Renew Deal]

106. I don't think this is constitutionally legal.

I don't remember seeing anything about suspending anyone.

[starroute]

65. Isn't a lot of this just a bit premature?

It's a long, long way from here to November. And the most important battle isn't Us vs. Them -- it's the battle for the hearts and minds of the American people.

If the American people become convinced that postponement of elections in the fact of terrorism is both acceptable and necessary, no amount of marching or resisting will have any effect. It will just place those who engage in it outside the circle of normative behavior.

On the other hand, if the American people are convinced that any tampering with our democratic system would be just one final outrage on top of a whole string of outrages, then the Bushies might not even dare to mess with the elections. Or if they did, they would have the entire nation against them.

At present, geting semi-hysterical about something that may never happen isn't going to win any recruits to our side. It tends to make us look like a bunch of kooks. And it may even, paradoxically, make the idea of postponing elections seem more respectable.

That is, if we spread the idea that elections are likely to be postponed, the debate then becomes one of whether or not this would be a good thing. And the Republicans have every chance to bring in the weapons of fear, group-think, and the-authorities-know-best to support their position. By the time they got around to actually doing it, the idea would have become familiar and at least semi-acceptable. It would seem like the American thing to do.

But if we can put across the attitude that idea of tampering with elections is completely ludicrous, so un-American as to be almost inconceivable, something out of a bad sci-fi movie, then we are the ones who control the discourse. We back them into a corner where they can act only by undermining themselves. And that is just where we want them.

Never hand your enemy a weapon that can kill you, folks. That's just common sense.

[robertpaulsen]

68. What Would Abraham Lincoln Do?

I think you have the right idea that we need to propagate "the attitude that idea of tampering with elections is completely ludicrous, so un-American as to be almost inconceivable".

Meluseth has a great post on Abraham Lincoln's words regarding the 1864 Presidential election.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1969965

Somehow, in the midst of Civil War we were able to have an election. If we ask the RW, What Would Abraham Lincoln Do? They will have already lost the argument.

[shraby]

80. True that tampering with the elections

is un-American, but what happened in 2000? Now Florida is being watched like a hawk, the voting machines are being questioned and put out of business, the CIA report is being questioned as to why the second half isn't being done until after the election, the Bushies haven't got too many alternatives left and one is postponing the election and invoking martial law. :mad: :scared:

[iconoclastic cat]

71. Say it: "Tampering with the elections is reckless and un-American!"

Starroute is right!

Say it again and again. It is never acceptable to indefinitely suspend the elections based on conjecture that we, the public, are not allowed to scrutinize! Never, never, never acceptable. No room for, "well, it might be, if..." No way. Keep saying it.

[Tellurian]

74. Here is what I found...

In your rationale of this sentence:

"Bushies might not even dare to mess with the elections. Or if they did, they would have the entire nation against them."

See Tellurian post #67

Past history is an accurate predictor of future behaviors..

Bev Harris has all the bases covered on BBV election tampering. They already know it's a dead end and not a sure thing..

Martial Law is the only Trump card the Bush team have left to play.

[Pallas180]

79. TELL - other than the Federal Court + 6 Senators, who might

all be under arrest by then - how to stop it ?

Cause if I were him, that;s what I'd do. Arrest the Senators, disband
the whole congress..he has no respect for them , has shown it, and
I would bet that's crossed their mind too.

how to stop it ?

[Tellurian]

81. Impossible...

Theres no way that can happen.

Even Hitler went through legal channals to disband parliament..
Then he proclaimed himself a dictator.

Read the making of the Third Reich...
Then read the making of the Fourth Reich..

[shraby]

83. I agree they wouldn't

be able to arrest senators and disband congress..most people in the whole country would be in Washington in a heartbeat. The army, police, news organizations, National Guard, etc. wouldn't back any such move either. There aren't enough people in the administration's power to pull it off.

[Tellurian]

87. Newsweek Link:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5411741/site/newsweek/

[Jose Diablo]

224. Anthrax II

Thats how to disable elements in the Senate. Lock the doors as the building is decontaminated.

[H2O Man]

86. It's curious ...... last night, we began

a discussion on some possible tactics .... things that are possible, with just a bit of discipline ..... like getting 100 letters regarding Wilson/Plame to a couple media sources.

We've seen the conversation go from 100 letters to 10 million marchers to 6 senators and 1 federal judge ......

The idea behind the 100 letters would be to try to re-establish the balance and separation of powers in Washington, DC.

If we focus our efforts for one week, we might actually get 100 letters. A tiny reality perhaps pales in comparison to huge fantasies. But if anyone wants to get back to the small goal, I'll be back in the morning!

[Tellurian]

88. That was before today's announcement of logistically postponing elections

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5411741/site/newsweek/

[Pallas180]

91. Big Problem. DU Activist Forum has marches planned for

the Republican Convention ( I have absolutely nothing to do with that
and I'm not a regular over there.)

I think it's a bad idea because I've seen Savannah) and also it will
give them the excuse to call down martial law.

[shraby]

93. Just hope and pray the Plame indictments

come down before the repub convention and the indictments go high enough to do something with the Senators.

[shraby]

92. There is no reason letters can't be

written not only about Plame, but about the other things this misadministration has perpetrated. We just have to keep writing and writing and writing. Not only to our representatives but to newspapers and the op-ed editors and to the news channels on t.v. If the indictments are against the top-guns, then we go to the senatorial removal of the perps until the trials are over.

edited for my bushism.

[Pallas180]

94. Letters on Plame but phone calls on No cancellation of elections

elections held in Civil War, War of 1812, et etc

No Vote - No Work

[alilenas]

97. Easily achievable goals

As you write the letters (I now have two, one on Plamegate, one on postponement of the elections, the latter went out this morning, the former goes out on Tuesday) you may also want to eyeball lists of congressmen and senators who don't represent you as well. I chose 9 of each from states other than my own. I sent copies of the election postponement letter to all major media outlets in my state, to Time, Newsweek, NY Times, LA Times and the Washington Post and will follow with the Plame letter to each.

My great uncle, a former US Rep, once said that, to him, every written letter was the equivalent of a hundred voters. One hundred letters equals 10,000 angry people.

You should bear in mind that most politicians are egomaniacs. Flatter them a bit, then remind them of their powers under the Constitution. They are being slapped by this. They are being denigrated by the administration who doesn't trust them to uphold their constitutional oaths.

BTW-- it took me a half hour to write the draft letters, adding specifics that referred to each member of Congress ("I know from your past record that you...) and used a program to fill in individual addresses. Doing letters to everyone took a little under 2 hours and around ten bucks in postage. I listened to two CDs while doing so and feel a little less helpless.

So as we plan our scenarios and do whatever we need to do to plan for the worst, let's not forget to this.

[Me.]

99. I agree with H20Man

I think this is the time for cool, clear, focused thinking. Using his letter as my "bones" I sent out several letters today and plan to write my senators and reps tomorrow. Because we are dealing with such unscrupulous people it is far too easy to wind one self's up. My worst fear is that they will shut the INTERNET down and prevent all communication. Friends tell me this won't happen because businessmen would not like that. Still it makes me manic whenever I think about it.

[Occulus]

103. I don't know that it's possible

to "shut down" the internet. Disrupt, oh my yes. But shut down?

Think about what a network is. So long as you have two networking-capable computers, you have a network.

I would think it's time some of the tech=-savvy DUers tried to come up with a way to create "roving" internet nodes; that is, portable servers, routers, etc. Wireless is almost out of the question unless there's 1024-bit or better encryption on everything being sent and received.

That's the one thing we have available that former dictators did not have to deal with: instant news that can be spread from coast to coast in an eyeblink.

Your friends are right, by the way: businesses would totally be against shutting down the Net; many (perhaps, most) of them have replaced their pen and paper accounting and reporting infrastructure, among other things, with realtime network-based communications. This is true for even some small business chains.

I think, personally, the internet is safe... for now. Come on- if the entire USA suddenly went offline at 3AM, the whole world would immediately notice. It would stick out like a sore, gangrenous thumb.

[alilenas]

109. Disrupted temporarily maybe

As I've said on another thread, if there is a disruption it won't, or indeed can't, go on for more than 72 hours. Business will be too damaged. In an emergency I do look for ATMs, credit card systems and access to the internet to be disrupted for a period. All the more reason to keep some emergency cash and a battery operated broad band radio for news from other countries.

[xocolatl]

162. It might be possible to freeze out certain websites

by requiring major ISP's to disallow access to those sites.

Email would still probably be operational. If things start moving in a weird direction, it might be useful to organize an email network to pass along critical news. (I wouldn't mind helping in that regard).

However, it's a bit paranoid :tinfoilhat: to get worked up about this presently. However, we've slipped so far down the slippery slope in 3.5 years that I wonder...

[coeur_de_lion]

117. H2O is right, that right now our best bet is the letter-writing campaign

The time to march may yet come, but right now there is something we can do.

Write the letters. I'll be doing mine on Weds. I think we should all write the letters and then report back on this thread.

[kohodog]

121. We can't allow ourselves to be distracted...

and not take action. We need to keep the heat on and not be distracted. My Plame letters are going out today and I'll be contacting my reps about the vote issue.

It's (vote postponement) all over the news today, but the media certainly seems anything but alarmed. Another sound bite, shortlived unless we raise our collective voice!

[coeur_de_lion]

131. One Day At a Time -- getting too excited by something that

has not happened yet will just distract us from our mission.

Just for today, we'll concentrate on the letters. More activities may happen later.

Very good point, Kohodog.

[Renew Deal]

110. Site with info on FEMA executive orders

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/fema.html

You can also have all sorts of fun by running this query.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=reagan+%2B+%22executive+order%22+%2B+fema+%2B+constitution&btnG=Search

[iconoclastic cat]

114. Insomniac Cat finds legal Plame info on MyDD

Can't sleep. Clown will eat me.

(links added in blue)

http://www.mydd.com/story/2004/7/11/23239/3685

Hawks and the Plame Affair
by Chris Bowers

This is not the sort of topic I usually write about. However, while surfing tonight I found hawk blogger claims on this topic so off base that I felt compelled to respond. In short, hawks are now convinced that Bush did not lie about the uranium claim in the 2003 SOTU and that Valerie Plame was outed accidentally in an attempt to discredit Wilson, rather than as revenge against him. Glenn Reynolds (http://instapundit.com/) offers this passage from a Chicago Sun-Times article by Marc Steyn (http://www.suntimes.com/output/steyn/cst-edt-steyn11.html), apparently to sum up his own opinion on the matter:

Bush didn't LIE!!!! He was right, and the CIA were wrong. That doesn't mean they LIED!!!! Intelligence is never 100 percent. You make a judgment, and in this instance the judgments of the British and Europeans were right, and the judgment of the principal intelligence agency of the world's hyperpower was wrong.

OK--let's actually look at the passage that Josh Marshall and others have always claimed was a lie (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/01/20030128-23.html):

The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa.

Now, here is an AP article on the recent Senate report that supposedly justifies Bush's statement (http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGB62OSSGWD.html):

French and British intelligence separately told the United States about possible Iraqi attempts to buy uranium in the African nation of Niger, the report said.

In the 2003 SOTU, Bush told the country that Iraq sought uranium from Africa. However, the report that has supposedly exonerated him only mentions "possible Iraqi attempts to buy uranium." Not only did he exaggerate the certainty of the event, he always threw in "significant quantities" as pure speculation. Intentional exaggeration coupled with pure speculation sounds like a lie to me. There is no way to deduce a truth-value of "true" for Bush's statement from the Senate Intelligence report.

The other main claim is that the administration outed Plame not as a means of punishing Wilson, but instead in order to respond to questions about how Wilson got the job investigating the Niger claims in the first place. However, in the same article that Glenn Reynolds links as the best roundup of the collapse of Joe Wilson's credibility (http://www.pejmanesque.com/archives/007176.html) there is the following paragraph:

My reading of 50 U.S.C. sec. 421 (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/50/421.html) suggests that even if Administration officials identified and leaked Plame's name as a way of responding to queries about how Wilson--who admits that he did little in Niger except "drinking sweet mint tea and meeting with dozens of people"--a crime may still have been committed.

So, even those trying to tear down the argument admit that the administration is probably still guilty of criminal activity in outing Plame. I am not a lawyer, but I'll just go ahead and concur with the hawks on this one.

In summary, Bush still lied and the administration is still probably criminally culpable for outing Plame. As for the rest of the hawk commentary on these new revelations, it is devoted entirely to trashing Wilson's character. To that I simply respond, "whatever." Whether Wilson is a partisan hack or a professional of the highest order ultimately has nothing to do with this case, because Bush still lied about uranium in order to go to war and a high crime, possibly treasonous, was still probably committed by the Bush administration against Valerie Plame. Then again, as I write this I am drinking Green tea, so I must not be credible.

Republicans :: Sun Jul 11th, 2004 at 11:23:09 PM EST ::

**

Well, 50 USC Sec. 421 (none / 0)

is all well and good. But they need to convict these worthless motherfuckers of violating 18 USC Sec. 794(a) and (c). And, if they can find two witness to the same overt act, they should be convicted of Treason and executed.

18 USC Sec. 794(http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/794.html)

Sec. 794. - Gathering or delivering defense information to aid foreign government

(a)

Whoever, with intent or reason to believe that it is to be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of a foreign nation, communicates, delivers, or transmits, or attempts to communicate, deliver, or transmit, to any foreign government, or to any faction or party or military or naval force within a foreign country, whether recognized or unrecognized by the United States, or to any representative, officer, agent, employee, subject, or citizen thereof, either directly or indirectly, any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, note, instrument, appliance, or information relating to the national defense, shall be punished by death or by imprisonment for any term of years or for life, except that the sentence of death shall not be imposed unless the jury or, if there is no jury, the court, further finds that the offense resulted in the identification by a foreign power (as defined in section 101(a) of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978) of an individual acting as an agent of the United States and consequently in the death of that individual, or directly concerned nuclear weaponry, military spacecraft or satellites, early warning systems, or other means of defense or retaliation against large-scale attack; war plans; communications intelligence or cryptographic information; or any other major weapons system or major element of defense strategy.

(c)

If two or more persons conspire to violate this section, and one or more of such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy, each of the parties to such conspiracy shall be subject to the punishment provided for the offense which is the object of such conspiracy.

Valerie Plame's ID as a CIA NOC officer was TOP SECRET information. Only a very select few people have the clearance or the need to know who our NOC officers are. Also, the people who have access to this information have to sign a memo every year stating that they are aware of 18 USC Sec. 794 and it's penalties. Failure to sign the memo results in loss of clearance. Therefore giving Plame's ID to Novak, knowing it would be published in a newspaper widely read by foreign nationals violated 18 USC Sec. 794.

Aldrich Ames committed the exact same crime. He outed American CIA agents to the Soviets. He was convicted of violating 18 USC Sec. 794(c) and is currently serving life in prison.

If serving life in prison is good enough for Aldrich Ames, it's good enough for Bush.

by Anonymous Hero on Mon Jul 12th, 2004 at 01:33:42 AM EST

[shraby]

115. Yup, you nailed it to a T

There is not only that, but when Bush showed Prince Bandar the plans for the Iraq war that was marked NOFORN he himself committed treason. This piece of info is in Woodward's book. The media didn't even touch it with a ten foot pole.

[iconoclastic cat]

116. You understand that I only wrote the "clowns will eat me" part, right?

The rest is by Bowers and that other poster.

[shraby]

118. You found the stuff though.

:toast:

[Pallas180]

127. "Aldrich Ames committed the exact same crime. Outed CIA agents"

Aldrich Ames committed the exact same crime. He outed American CIA agents to the Soviets. He was convicted of violating 18 USC Sec. 794(c) and is currently serving life in prison.

If serving life in prison is good enough for Aldrich Ames, it's good enough for Bush.


ICONO - I particularly liked the last part.

Thanks for the info.

[Tellurian]

159. Interesting, Insomniac...

I wonder if the GJ requested the names or are aware of the names of the people who are aware of Plame's status. (seeing that her overt status is very rare) It would be interesting to know the names on the list.

[DeepModem Mom]

119. Any idea if/how this NYT article re. intel report, WMDs and pre-emption...

doctrine fits in here? What are the quoted White House aides trying to say to the NYT, and what are their motives?

NEWS ANALYSIS: THE INTELLIGENCE
Bush's Pre-emptive Strategy Meets Some Untidy Reality
By DAVID E. SANGER

Published: July 12, 2004

Even as President Bush turns his doctrine of pre-emptive action against powers threatening the United States into a campaign theme, Washington is using a far more subdued, take-it-slow approach to the dangers of unconventional weapons in Iran and North Korea.

There are many reasons for the yawning gap between Mr. Bush's campaign language and the reality. One of the most important is woven throughout the searing, 511-page critique of the intelligence that led America to war last year, released Friday by the Senate Intelligence Committee....

***

Mr. Bush's aides say other countries are citing Iraq to make the argument that America can never again be sure it is getting it right and thus must back away from the pre-emption doctrine enshrined in Mr. Bush's 2002 "National Security Strategy of the United States."..."It hurts us, there is no question," a senior aide to Mr. Bush conceded on Friday, as the Senate report was published. "We already have the Chinese saying to us, `If you missed this much in Iraq, how are we supposed to believe that the North Koreans are producing nuclear weapons?' It just increases the pressure on us to prove that we are right."...


***

In the cases of North Korea and Iran, the basis for the American charges is far stronger than it was in Iraq: Inspectors have seen and measured fissile material in both nations, and visited facilities capable of making more.

Yet so far, the International Atomic Energy Agency — which in retrospect largely got it right in Iraq — has declined to back the United States. "We all think the American assessment is probably right because there is no other good explanation for the Iranian activities," one senior international diplomat involved in the search for evidence in Iran said the other day. "But we still don't have the smoking gun." He said that after the Iraq experience, "We need smoking guns more than ever."...

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/12/politics/12PREE.html

[H2O Man]

120. "The future will depend on what we do

in the present." -- Mahatma Gandhi

Good morning! Today is a great day! And it provides us with the opportunity to continue to engage in the important discussions that we have been. I appreciate this opportunity!

The idea of "postponing" the elections, which rightfully is upsetting, is not new .... the administration has been talking about this for months. In a little while, I will add a few thoughts along that line .... because it is closely connected to everything else we have discussed on the previous 5 "threads" of discussion in the past week.

Yet when we recognize that a potential event in the future is "closely related" to a present situation .... then the logic of Gandhi's statement is self-evident.

Hence, while I recognize that every individual has the right to make up their own mind as to what they want to do .... and I respect that right ..... I will continue to lobby for people to take care of today first .... It is realistic to think that we can get 100+ letters to the designated "targets" by the end of the week.

[kohodog]

122. Right On!

We must do what we can today and not be distracted by future possibilities.

Would you not sow the field today because there might be a drought next year?

Not to say that we shouldn't be paying attention and planning, but we must do today what we can with the hope of averting a crisis down the road. Don't underestimate the impact you can have by adding your voice.

[Wind Dancer]

125. Good morning everyone!

I have been catching up on the last 2 threads - excellent investigating work and planning. I am in full agreement that our first step is to write letters re: the postponing of elections and the Plame case.

I will write a LTTE, 5 major media outlets outlined above, congress members and moveon.org. This is the first step, we must keep these threads active in case we need to start planning the 2nd step.

Thanks to everybody for contributing so much to this thread - appreciate it being made available on Word for downloading.

[robertpaulsen]

137. Good morning, H2O Man!

I do appreciative your posts and your perspective. Your insight and clear thinking has been an incredible asset to these threads. I think you have the right idea starting with letter writing. I'm working on two letters, one regarding the upcoming Plame indictments that the corporate media has been asleep on, the other dealing with the "postponing" of the election and holding Bush accountable with the question, "What Would Abraham Lincoln Do?"

But I do believe in multi-tasking when it comes to a situation that Rockefeller calls the most dangerous moment in our history. Write letters AND plan for the future. Whether those future plans are a 10 million person march, NO VOTE = NO WORK, NO VOTE = NO SPEND, or a combination of all three, we need to start planning now for the possibility Bush will try to steal the election again and that we the people will not allow that. Sorry if my rhetoric can sometimes sound inflammatory, but I do feel very passionately that Bush is a thief. We must do all we can, non-violently of course, to prevent him from doing it again.

[H2O Man]

139. Thank you, my friend,

I do appreciate your kind words. I also respect your desire to be active in the effort to right the wrongs that this criminal administration continues to commit.

I've said on other threads on DU that I was in a serious automobile accident in 2001. A human being using a cell phone while driving struck my vehicle's driver's side door -- after failing to stop for two stop signs and a red light -- and 55 mph creates an impact that changes one's life. And so for me, there are many days when "multi-tasking" merely means getting both feet to move. (smile) But, if nothing else, I have been forced to learn patience.

With patience comes perspective. It will take 20 years in order to repair the enormous damage these thugs have done to our country, and to the rest of the world. And that can only start after November.

There is a finite amount of time between now and election day. Each of us has to determine for ourselves exactly what we are able to do in that period of time. I believe that it is extremely important to focus attention on the Plame investigation. I think it is a task that we could accomplish successfully, and then build upon.

So I have patience, and will continue on this path. And I really do appreciate and enjoy the opportunity to coordinate efforts from time to time with the interesting group of people on DU ... especially this sequence of threads.

[robertpaulsen]

165. Your words stayed with me today.

Not just this post, but another post you made about Malcolm X wanting to hurry along the road. Patience is definitely a quality we should all have considering what we've had to endure for the last four years. But now the election approaches (hopefully) and I'm finding it difficult to wait for the Thief to take a hike.

But your words have had a calming effect on me and have given me a sense of focus on where my priorities lie. Thank you.

[Wilber_Stool]

126. Rough draft of my LTTE

I am not a coward. I will vote.
I am not a coward. I will not be intimidated by the threat of attack.
I am not a coward. I will not be intimidated by a REAL attack.
We are not cowards. Cowardice is not part of the American spirit.
I resent that this administration would assume as much.
If we do not vote, they have won.
We are not cowards. We will vote.

I think we really have to use forums that have the greatest exposer to the largest number of people. Appeal to patriotism, determination, and purpose.
I think it might be too long though. My paper tends to edit with a hatchet. Any suggestions?

[Pallas180]

128. Wilber, its' terriffic, and short enough for cable to read on air.

Send it to those rotten media cheerleaders who supported this cabal.

My only suggestion is that you put in the subject title:

RE: Postponing Election

[coeur_de_lion]

132. Good Day, Pallas!!

:hi:

[Pallas180]

134. Hey Arby.

:hi:

[Pallas180]

146. LMAO-dimson on tv showing Libya wmd components returned- is

that the same stuff cheney sold to Libya? they've got some
deal going there. Cheney sells the stuff, customer pays big cause
it's illegal, and then junior demands return.

Whatcha wanna bet a lot of that WMD is going to end up in Iraq,
or those are empty shells and boxes and the real stuff is being
trucked into Iraq, per Robert's and my previous posts?

Boy, we should really write a novel. This stuff is too gross and
unbelievable. Better than Clancy. The saying "truth is stranger than fiction"

[Pallas180]

147. BTW, which are we being distracted from? Gay Amendment or

stopping elections.

He's hitting us with both on the same day.

And they've done that all along.

Bring up one controversial matter to make us up in arms and\
then slip another one through Congress the same time.

What an operation.

[coeur_de_lion]

149. yeah, bless his little black heart, he'll distract us any way he can

I meant that we have an immediate task of getting as many letters out as possible. We don't need to invade DC just yet. * hasn't stolen or blocked the elections yet.

[coeur_de_lion]

150. dupe

[coeur_de_lion]

151. dupe

[LibertyorDeath]

148. Busy spreading this far and wide please help

I'm at yahoo with it it's getting tons of Recs
Thank You Wilber Thank You!!!

DO NOT give up your Democracy.

They are trying to Con all of you with Fear

America held Elections even during the Civil War

Send this take a few minutes & send this

I am not a coward. I will vote.
I am not a coward. I will not be intimidated by the threat of attack.
I am not a coward. I will not be intimidated by a REAL attack.
We are not cowards. Cowardice is not part of the American spirit.
I resent that this administration would assume as much.
If we do not vote, they have won.
We are not cowards. We will vote.

Send this now to your Senators & Congressmen

278. CONTACT CONGRESS & LEADERSHIP ADDRESSES:


Fax Numbers of US Congress

http://www.no-smoking.org/feb97/2-17-97-01.html


Congressional Leadership

http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/cgi-bin/leadership.cg ...


Congressional Committees & Subcommittees

http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/cgi-bin/committee_lis ...


Misc. Contact Congress

[H2O Man]

142. I have a question ......

Do we need to place an "ad" on the regular forum to try to recruit other DU participants for the letter writing? Any thoughts, suggestions, ideas, recommendations?

[robertpaulsen]

153. I hope the MODS know the best way to spread the letters.

It would be nice to have this as an announcement at the top of the forums board.

Or Skinner, could you put this at the top of GD?

I believe we definitely need some sort of separate letter thread where we can compare styles and share ideas.

[Pallas180]

158. Robert, you & others might nominate Wilber's poem=letter

for the front page. That would surely spread it far and wide.

[Pallas180]

160. Hahaha. Pat Buchanan endorsed Ralph Nader. Yikes - this is

so nuts.

[Pallas180]

164. WAHOO. THEY GOT OUR MESSAGE.CONDOLEEZA ON CNN

SAYING ELECTIONS WILL GO ON, THEY HAVE ALWAYS GONE ON EVEN DURING
THE CIVIL WAR, I DONT KNOW WHERE THIS RUMOR CAME FROM THAT THERE WONT
BE ELECTIONS"

Wahoo.

waaal, she ought to ask Tom Ridge.

But that doesn't mean we stop sending letters and emails and calls
to all the republican thugs and demos that there must be elections
or we will be very upset.

She's also saying " you can't trust the word of a madman"

she's right. how is it that she thinks Saddaam Hussein is mad and
doesn't recognize it in dimson ?

[robertpaulsen]

171. "I DONT KNOW WHERE THIS RUMOR CAME FROM"

God, how full of denial can you get? This sounds about as honest as the mushroom cloud statement and the historical document Bush received in August 2001.

[Pallas180]

174. Yes RP. There is no credibility in anything they say. And that

is what the new move.on ad emphasizes.

Saw it 3 or 4 times today. It's quite effective.

[robertpaulsen]

166. I've nominated this thread, but how do you nominate a post?

Let me know and I'll do it!

[Pallas180]

170. RP- just copy and paste and send it to Skinner as nomination

for poem by Wilber giving the thread location, and the thread name
Plame #6 and the post number.

That should do it, unless Wilber wants to make it a separate thread,
which wouldn't be a bad idea.

[robertpaulsen]

189. Did it. n/t

[Wilber_Stool]

256. I am not a coward. I will vote.

I am not a coward. I will vote.
I am not a coward. I will not be intimidated by the threat of attack.
I am not a coward. I will not be intimidated by a REAL attack.
We are not cowards. Cowardice is not part of the American sprit.
I resent that this administration would assume as much.
If we do not vote, they have won.
Americans are not cowards. We will vote.

How's this?
I just came back to this thread. Had to push myself away. It was really freaking me out.

[AgadorSparticus]

167. been reading furiously for the past 4 days trying to get caught up.

I am mesmerized and inspired by the wealth of information on these threads. I woke up this morning and my first thougth was of Timothy McVeigh. ugh. I have several points to make and not necessarily sure how to go about it in a coherent manner, so I will just jump right in and do my best.

Richard Clarke addressed something interesting in his book relating to the OK bombing. On pg. 127, he wrote:

"Another conspiracy theory intrigued me because I could never disprove it. They theory seemed unlikely on its face: RAmzi Yousef or Khalid Sheik Muhammad had taught Terry Nichols how to blow up the Oklahoma Federal Building. The problem was that, upon investigation, we established that both Ramzi Yousef and Nichols had been in the city of Cebu on the same days. I had been to Debu years earlier; it is on an island in the central PHilippines. It was a town in which word could have spread that a local girl was bringing her American boyfriend home and that the American hated the US gov't.

Yousef and Khalid SHeik Muhammad had gone there to help create an al Queda spinoff, a Philippine affiliate chapter, named after a hero of the Afghan war against the Soviets, Abu Sayaff. Could the Al Aqueda explosives expert have been introduced to the angry American who proclaimed his hatred for the US Gv't? We do not know, despite some FBI Investigations. We do know that NIchols's bombs did not work before his PHilippine stay and were deadly when he returned. We also know that Nichols continued to call Cebu long after his wife returned to the US. The final coincidence is that several al Qaeda operatives had attended a radical Islamic conference a few yrs earlier in, of all places, Oklahoma City."

What strikes out at me on a very simplistic form are big booms and buildings--on US soil. After reading (can't remember who posted it) the link on Vidal's take of McVeigh, I have to wonder about the link between OK city, WTC bombingI, and 911--which opens the whole can of MIHOP.

Which led me to this theory. Plame was outed, not because of revenge or yellowcake, but because she got close to uncovering the network of WMD specialists who are in the works of our Nov. surprise. If Saddam Hussein already had the yellowcake, then the whole Niger concoction was nothing in the world but a big distraction from the real plan at hand: the nov. surprise-->cancelling elections-->martial law.

Hence, the "good" spook's justification to scurry about saving as much information and work that Plame was involved in. The bush cabal chose to bring down Plame and Wilson because, like H2O said, they KNOW and are under the other wizard's payroll. It would not be the first time in history that truthsayers are publicly discredited in the name of damage control.

Now, about the November surprise. Just as 911 was not concocted and implemented overnight, neither will the November surprise. I think it has been in the making since before OK city. Ok City was just a mock run. Like the G8 martial law in Georgia was a mock run of what is in store for us if certain plans get carried through. It was the beginning of the national Fear Factor Factory. I think this is part of their sinister plan. America is WELL on its way to becoming the fascist state envisioned in their sinister plan unless we exercise our constitutional rights and "SQUEEK" like hell--while we can.

But in our oligarchy, the disproportionate amount of power the bccg (bush cabel carlyle group)is emassing can make other powers nervous. The oligarchy works as long as they work as a unit and SHARE as a unit. Much like hostile takeovers, the bccg is getting too big for other's comfort. The other wizards behind the curtain are being threatened as well. And hence, the immense power struggle. For decades, the oligarchy have worked together to steal and make money off of America and the free world. But one tentacle decides it wants total dominion. Ensuing war takes place behind the curtain. And it spills over into the land of OZ. Micheal Moore could not have done what he's done with F911 without some inside help.

I'm trying to digest everything like everyone else and thought I'd post my ideas and reiterate ideas of others so that I can better understand and maybe it could help someone else too. Just something to ponder on if it is worth pondering on at all.

[Pallas180]

173. BEBE - welcome - and very worth while pondering! Overwhelming.

and astounding . good work. It will take several readings for it to sink in.

Why wasn't the public told about the foreign connections to MC Veigh
and Nichols? And why did Nichols & McVeigh hate America. That hasn't
been explained.

Maybe someone who read Gore Vidal on McVeigh would have the answer.


"But in our oligarchy, the disproportionate amount of power the bccg (bush cabel carlyle group)is emassing can make other powers nervous. The oligarchy works as long as they work as a unit and SHARE as a unit. Much like hostile takeovers, the bccg is getting too big for other's comfort. The other wizards behind the curtain are being threatened as well. And hence, the immense power struggle. For decades, the oligarchy have worked together to steal and make money off of America and the free world. But one tentacle decides it wants total dominion. Ensuing war takes place behind the curtain. "

BTW - a certain faction on DU does not expect or call it a November surprise...but "the October surprise".

Nice to have your input. It certainly added to understanding.

[AgadorSparticus]

177. that's the thing.

Clarke cannot say definitively that there IS a tie between Nichols and Ramzi Yousef. But the dots are so close together it's hard not to connect them.

thanks, Pallas. I've enjoyed your input on the past 800 posts. LOL You and H2O make a great team to get the brain matter going and to move us peons to action.

I've mentioned writing to editors, etc. for the past couple of months but have been ignored. I only mentioned this because my very republican father does that. He writes to the editor of a small town newspaper consistently. And he gets results. He writes to senators, congressmans, editors, government officials...anyone who can do anything about invoking change. It works. gotta run. hubby will divorce me if i don't get off this laptop right now. see you tonight.

[Pallas180]

180. I wondered if WE ALLshould be doing exactly that. TJ FREEMAN

gave me the idea which I was about to post when you told us
about your father's results.

We all vote locally in our towns and cities. We should be letting the local officials know how we feel about "postponed" elections. Giving them a piece of our minds, that even during Civil War etc voting went on. And that Martial Law taking over this country smacks
of fascism and is unacceptable.

I agree it has to be done by phone and letters and emails to the local councilman, mayors, police chiefs, the guy on the police force that you know personally that's important, we have to indoctrinate them not to hurt their neighbor and citizens
in addition to our reps in Congress and Senate. Local phone calls should be easy. And maybe in a personal visit
to the Mayor of the Town and councilmen and bring it up at a town meeting and so on.

Always good to let the locals know how you feel, cause we vote locally.

WHAT DO YOU ALL THINK OF THAT?

[kohodog]

185. Our Local Police are on our side (mostly)!

And are not a threat for the most part. I doubt many of them will acceed to enforcing martial law with fervor. Rather it is the growing army of paid mercenaries (they run many of our prisons and comprise a large number of contractors in Iraq) that will be happy to impose martial law. This issue just coming to the surface, but of course there are distractions. Abu Garib is currently on the back burner, but it is apparent that "contractors" are complicit. And Rummy went to the US prison system to conscript one of the major players. This has all been documented lately, and maybe someone can help me with the back up. Perhaps the Sunday Times Magazine...not sure though.

As the Army (and Prison system) become more and more privitized our elected officials will have less power to stop them. I don't think there has ever been a coup in a country where the army was comprised of conscripted citizens.

We live in dangerous times.

[Pallas180]

188. KOHO, are you speaking of your local police in your town? or

do you mean all over America?

Cause the local police all over America will not necessarily
lay back. That's why I suggest talking to ones you know personally.

It was mostly locals from six counties in Georgia who joined with the Guard and some contractos. And they were not being chummy and homey.

The privatizing started with Reagan and accelerated with Pappy. Til
everything is privatized. Even the guards at Las Alomos - where apparently nuke secrets are stolen on a weekly basis with ease.

Want to privatize Social Security with the Brokerage houses, cause your pResident does. Wants to continue where pappy left off.

I don't recall Clinton privatizing.

[kohodog]

198. Local yokels

In many towns they are ok, regular folk trying their best to support their families, etc.

The riot cops in NY are downright intimidating, but the beat guys and women are awesome on any given day. I've wondered if the riot squad is a totally different group. Even during the marches, many of the regulars were sympathetic to the cause (but some were hostile). Then there were the ones on horses who literally tried to hurt people (and the last thing a horse wants to do is step on anyone).

But my main point is the privitazation. When Kellog Brown and Root is your paycheck, it's not the same as being paid by the town. city or country where you live. They don't have the same agenda. And an army of mersenaries is being trained right now.

[kohodog]

179. More on McVeigh and Nichols

I menrioned this in one of the earlier threads, but there is a book to note called "The New Jackals: Ramzi Yousef, Osama Bin Ladin and the future of Terrorism" by Simon Reeve. He was FBI and involved with investigating the WTC attack in 1993. It goes into more detail than Clark on Nichol's involvement with Al Quaida operatives in the Phillipines. It was reprinted after 911, and has some fascinating info.

[AgadorSparticus]

213. Koho, have you read this book? my book pile is out of control.

If you have, I'd like to get your take on it. Maybe you could share a bit about the gems from the book? I have Wilson's book staring at me once I get off the computer. But I will tag this book for future reads. Thanks for the suggestion.

[kohodog]

216. Yes, and it's a good read...

But sort of a vacation type book, like "Charlie Wilson's War." It reads well and has lot's of good info, but probably not to the top of the list. Browse it in a bookstore to see if you think it would be worth it.

I will say that both books have added depth to my perception of the issue.

[AgadorSparticus]

222. thanks. i'll check it out. eom

[robertpaulsen]

187. Bebe, you're scaring me - and making me think.

This gives me a whole new perspective on Plame's "sting operation" - and explains why the BCCG (great acronym!) is floating the trial balloon of election "postponement" at the same time they send Condi out to deny it.

If your theory is correct, it proves two things. One, Valerie Plame is as big a hero as Sibel Edmonds, if not bigger. Two, her heroic efforts to thwart MIHOP 2004 from taking place were not entirely successful, it just created a delay. I don't know if you read my post 140, but these sources detail the transportation of WMD in the Middle East:

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0313-08.htm

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0413-02.htm

So, it's not definite proof of a MIHOP conspiracy, but it does prove that post-Valerie Plame, the trafficking of WMD by the US is still going on in the Middle East. To what ends? I think you're correct in calling it a November surprise. Although, with the Bush misadministration tipping their hand in Newsweek, it's no longer really a surprise.

[Pallas180]

192. Don;'t stop writing and calling about election

Olberman has two different guys on:

One in charge of elections, saying they can't be canceled/changed

Another saying Congress can change the date of elections

(and that 108th Congress is a den of vipers)

keep the letters and phone calls going folks.

[Pallas180]

193. Time to lighten up. Did you know there are other threads on DU

talking about the Plame thread?????

isn't that funny?

:D :) :)

[robertpaulsen]

197. WOW. That is too much!

I'll try to check it out, but I've got to go home and my dial-up there is slower than molasses in January with a thread over 100 posts. Kicks me off constantly. I'll be back in the morning, on thread 7, I presume!

[Me.]

207. Getting Back to Plame

Steve Quayle @ www.stevequayle.com has a very interesting theory about how the investigation will affect the country's finances. Click on the big Q on the left and then click on money matters

[Me.]

209. The article date is

June 28

[kohodog]

210. HOW The F#*# did you find that article?? WOW

Absolutely amazing!

Don't know anything about the credibility, but when you combine it with the Time artical talking about the Plame "sting" operation, and everything presented here, it seems to add a bold stroke to the image we're painting!

We've gone from Monet to Goya!

[Me.]

214. Can't take credit for finding the article

It was mentioned on Astroworld. I checked it out and then shared it here. Still not great on doing the link thing.

[robertpaulsen]

278. Welcome Me! Great contribution! EVERYONE, READ THE LINK!

Here are some choice words:

The CIA initiative that was the basis of the fact train concerning the determined effort to undo the open market for Weapons of Mass Destruction in the 90s in Austria is the initiative that was destroyed by the outing of Valerie Plame as an NOC-CIA operative.

I would prefer to think that neither the present administration - if they were involved - nor Novak knew what they were doing when they did it. I would also prefer to think that whoever outed Valerie Plame acted on emotion rather than considered forethought.

If indeed that wasn’t the case and the act was meant to be harmful, not only has this crime violated the Intelligence Identities Protection Act, it is in fact an act of treason by all involved. That is the law.

http://www.stevequayle.com/index1.html

How do you like dem apples? Treason? Damn right.

[coeur_de_lion]

283. Cheesus H. Christ. H2O, you need to read this

copying some of the story here:
snip>>
What occurred in their 23 years of work in these countries was compromised by the Novak article and whoever transmitted the name of the CIA-NOC to Mr. Novak.

This is so serious that in my opinion no mole, double agent or traitor in the entire history of the US has ever done the degree of damage that the Novak article did. It took apart so many operations and CIA-NOC operatives that its ultimate impact is probably incalculable.

When a man like Jim Pavitt retires within the same timeframe as Tenet, it has to be in total disgust as Mr. Pavitt was Plame’s mentor and boss - and infinitely qualified to be so.
snip>>

snip>>
This all boils down to one singular question and that is has the present administration and its financial king making backers become irreconcilably estranged? For if they have - as was the case between finance and President Nixon - we are on the threshold of a Watergate situation that might well be a hundred times worse.
>>

[coeur_de_lion]

284. thank you ME! & thank your Robert for bringing it to our attention n/t

[AgadorSparticus]

218. RP, I remember waiting for the WMD's to show up around

March/April too. But with all the media on it, no doubt it took the air out of their sails. Iraq is still a "necessary" base so I'm not surprised that there would still be so much WMD covert activity. Iraq is in "stable" condition. PNAC isn't done. There are other oil reserves we need to secure.

But, what you posted about the privatized army being built in Iraq is a definite point of contention. It posed a problematic issue of accountability/heirarchy in Abu Ghraib. I remember Randi Rhodes talked about this problem when the torture pics first came out. How in the world did the military come to this?

Makes me so mad when I saw F911 and a soldier was saying how it burns him that he is getting paid $2000-$3000 a month while the Halliburton guy is getting $10,000 a month for doing the same 40 hr a week job. Something is very wrong with this picture.

[robertpaulsen]

279. When a soldier asks for Rummy's resignation, we should all listen.

I don't see how anyone, regardless of their ideological convictions, can watch F911 and not believe the soldiers in Iraq are getting a raw deal. Blackwater and their kind are the new SS, and it scared me when I found out how many of them there are.

Just curious, do you remember any more of what Randi Rhodes take on the situation is? I don't get to listen to her that often, but I appreciate her honesty and candor.

[Stephanie]

251. Don't forget that BushCO allowed Iraqi nuclear materials to be looted

If there is a dirty bomb attack, we will know who to blame:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/10/20021007-8.html

Knowing these realities, America must not ignore the threat gathering against us. Facing clear evidence of peril, we cannot wait for the final proof -- the smoking gun -- that could come in the form of a mushroom cloud. - G. Bush, 10/7/02

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://www.sierrasun.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20030718/OPINION/307180301
July 18, 2003
Bush's actions don't match the rhetoric
Guest Column by Kirk Caraway

<snip>Turn back the clock to the before the war. You "know" your enemy has 100-500 tons of chemical weapons, and you know where he is likely hiding them. Wouldn't you try to secure those sites as quickly as possible? After all, these chemical weapons posed a major threat to our advancing troops, and the big danger, they said, was if these fall into the hands of terrorists.

So why wasn't this done? Special Forces teams were flown into Iraq to secure the oil fields, but not the weapons. That speaks volumes about what the real reason for the war is.

And those weapons are still missing. Rumsfeld claims they are doing their best to search all those sites, but this is disconcerting. How many days have his 150,000 soldiers had to search the sites they already know about?

And what about the nukes? If Bush and his people really thought that Iraq had an active nuclear weapons program, why did the military wait for more than a week after taking over the region to even visit the country's main nuclear research facilities at Tuwaitha?

Why did they wait even longer to visit the neighboring Baghdad Nuclear Research Facility? Both sites were heavily looted, so if there were plans for a nuclear bomb or even some weapons-grade material, it would be long gone by now.<more>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://www.counterpunch.org/schwarz07172003.html
July 17, 2003
Bush's Pre-emptive Strike Doctrine
The Bane of Non-Proliferation Watchdogs
By MARTIN SCHWARZ

<snip>Bush's use of the specter of nuclear threat to legitimate his intimidation policy can also been seen as just another excuse if reports from occupied post-war Iraq are taken into account. When the reports about massive looting in Iraq's biggest nuclear facility Al-Tuwaitha emerged after the war, the U.S. administration rejected the IAEA's request to send inspectors to that facility for more than a month. El-Baradei didn't even get an answer to his letters to U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell. Meanwhile, strange things must have happened in Al-Tuwaitha: The IAEA in Vienna received several phone calls from U.S. soldiers based at the facility to secure it, who didn't know what to do with nuclear material they had found.<more>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://www.abcnews.go.com/wire/World/reuters20030716_192.html
U.N. in Dark About Looted Iraq Dirty Bomb Material
July 16
By Louis Charbonneau

VIENNA (Reuters) - The U.N. nuclear watchdog said Wednesday it had accounted for most of the low-grade uranium lost during looting at Iraq's main nuclear facility, but had no information about more dangerous radioactive material.

<snip>But an IAEA spokeswoman said the agency had not been permitted by U.S. occupation authorities to check the status of Tuwaitha's stocks of highly-radioactive cesium-137, cobalt-160 and other materials which could be used in dirty bombs.

"There were around 400 of these radioactive sources stored at Tuwaitha," IAEA's Melissa Fleming said.

Witnesses have said that villagers near Tuwaitha, especially children, have shown symptoms of radiation sickness.

"Any case of radiation sickness would probably be from these highly-radioactive sources, not from the low-grade natural uranium at Location C," Fleming said.<more>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/observer/news/6068775.htm
Looting of Iraqi nuclear facility indicts U.S. goals
If we feared the loss of radioactive materials, why not guard them?
TRUDY RUBIN
Knight Ridder Newspapers
Posted on Thu, Jun. 12, 2003

TUWAITHA, Iraq - On a dusty road, just outside of Baghdad, lies one of the great mysteries of the Iraq war.

<snip>The administration knew full well what was stored at Tuwaitha. So how is it possible that the U.S. military failed to secure the nuclear facility until weeks after the war started? This left looters free to ransack the barrels, dump their contents, and sell them to villagers for storage.

How is it possible that, according to Iraqi nuclear scientists, looters are still stealing radioactive isotopes?

The Tuwaitha story makes a mockery of the administration's vaunted concern with weapons of mass destruction. The U.S. military hastened to secure the Ministry of Oil in Baghdad from looters. But Iraq's main nuclear facility was apparently not important enough to get similar protection.

<snip>And why, in facilities other than Location C, is the looting apparently continuing?

Hisham Abdel Malik, a Iraqi nuclear scientist who lives near Tuwaitha and has been inside the complex, told me that in buildings "where there are radioactive isotopes, there is looting every day." He says the isotopes, which are in bright silver containers, "are sold in the black market or kept in homes." According to IAEA spokeswoman Melissa Fleming, such radioactive sources can kill on contact or pollute whole neighborhoods.

How could an administration that had hyped the danger of Saddam handing off nuclear materials to terrorists let Tuwaitha be looted? Maybe the hype was just hype ... or maybe the Pentagon didn't send enough troops to Iraq to do the job right.

Either answer is damning.<more>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[tableturner]

194. Hey H2O, is there any update on probability of 7/14 celebration?

Just a quick question to answer, and also a little expansion on what it is that may hold things up, would be much appreciated.

[H2O Man]

212. You've probably heard....

or perhaps read on a couple posts on the last page that the grand jury is expected to spend two more weeks investigating a couple possible leads with -- I believe -- two journalists.

There is some reason to believe that the investigation will be completed by the end of July. You may note that July 14 plus two weeks = the end of July.

However, I am hoping that on Wednesday there will be a firm response to some of the nonsense being put out about Wilson, Plame, the CIA investigations on Iraq and WMD, and the role of three cheney employees.

If you look closely at the time-line I posted at the top of this page, (all the information comes from Wilson's book), then you have a fairly good picture what has happened in general.

Keep in mind that when rove became aware (by David Corn's article in the Nation) that a very serious crime "may" have been committed, he became extremely upset at Abrams and Libby for the potential damage they did to bush. This, of course, is curious, when you consider the 3-8-03 meeting that cheney called to prepare to destroy Wilson. I would also note that Wilson had not wrote his op-ed for the NYT at that date, so one can speculate that there were other reasons for the vp and friends wanting to destroy him.

Also keep in mind the NYT book review I frequently quote: (7-5) John Dean, who I have great respect for, noted the White House continues to try to discredit Dean, and adds they are picking a fight with the wrong guy. I'll respect whatever choice Wilson makes in deciding how to respond to the continued attacks. But I have a feeling Joseph may not wait until the grand jury finishes its work.

[hang a left]

201. I have been now read all the threads.

It took quite a while. I just got back from vacation Saturday night and spent several hours on 1 and 2.

So very interesting, like a freakin spy novel with twists and turns and the usual suspects. Could not put it down once I opened the thread.

However after being around here for a while and quoting DU predictions to family and friends, I have now learned to not say anything. However I did mention the 14th date to my mom. But before that I mentioned the end of June. Because before I left for vacation I was assured that would be the date. Anyhoooo....I am soooo excited at all the prospects stated in these threads, however remain cautiously paranoid and optimistic.

Anyway some of the subjects and directions these threads have ventured into are frightening. I am trying to remain calm here.
What a past few days though, whew! Senate Report, Terra warnings, election cancelation rumors, Plame indictment hopes, marshall law scares, now the flippin earth's magnetic field is history.

I have never seen a thread this long on DU. It is not surprising you have the same people that keep coming and posting because alot of people would not take the time to read all that has been said over the past several days. I guess that is their loss. Anyway it seems like it is starting to slow down now. I just want to thank everyone for their contributions, I have thoroughly enjoyed this educational experience. I kind of feel like a thief because I came and devoured everything and added nothing. Just want to let you know that I was here, I guess.

[kohodog]

204. Thanks for checking in liberalnproud

Feel free to add your thoughts, and consider writing a few letters!

Welcome!

[Pallas180]

208. You know, Americans are really wonderful. Another thread

has the question: What will you do if they cancel elections?

And this answer really made me smile very widely:


The most massive civil disobedience campaign in history-
My wife and I discussed this earlier, and we decided we would go to the city clerks office and chain ourselves to the door until they either drag us away or open the polls.

[Pallas180]

206. Hey LIBERALnPROUD, thanks for saying hello and stop by

and visit anytime.

We agree.

It is like reading a spy novel and I bet authors will be writing about this administration, after everything is uncovered, for at least 20 years, who knows, maybe 50 - cause we sure never have seen
anything like this before in our 228 year history as America the Beautiful

[Occulus]

291. I've been following this one since

before the first thread on this subject was posted, but you're right- this is the best discussion I've ever seen here. And again, you're right- it reads like a spy novel.

I think I might invest in several black ink cartridges and a few reams of paper and print out the whole thing. This is well worth having a hard copy of.

These six threads have enough material for several books, on various topics. In fact, if DU were to publish them AS books, I'd help fund it. This topic is THAT important.

I wonder- is it even remotely possible we could get Wilson, Clarke, etc to comment here? Even one or two statements would help our discussion immensely. I think we need some comments from "the horse's mouth," as it were... and not from their books, but from the players themselves.

Unless they're already here, and we don't know it.... :)

Keep disicussing this topic, folks. This one is too important for us to allow it to sink.

[Jose Diablo]

228. How do we know these threads are not part of

Operation Trojan Horse as detailed in FEMA's plan to round-up dissenters via posting in internet forums.

Or is this too
:tinfoilhat:

[Pallas180]

233. Well Jelly Bean, we don't. But since this is called Democratic Underground

I guess they might consider everyone who posts here as dissenters
from the present misadministration.

Anyway, as long as we've been posting here for a couple of years,
it's too late now.

It's just wise to not use any violent words or any key words they-their machine would look for. Like stupid's name. of the Big A or
who knows.

But we're all in it together now. :)

[shraby]

237. We just might get to meet each other

in a gulag someplace.

[KansDem]

257. A gulag for DUers? Wouldn't that be a "Dulag...?" (eom)

:dem:

[coeur_de_lion]

259. LOL! n/t

[Pallas180]

325. ROFL Kans Dem n/t

:hi:

[Pallas180]

300. Ah. Schraby shares my dark sense of humor - hee hee

:kick"

[MR. ELECTABLE]

231. If something is revealed on 7/14, it will be overshadowed by FMA

According to the information I've seen, voting on the FMA will occur on 7/14. Methinks that this date could have been chosen well in advance to coincide with the pre-ordained release date mentioned so often throughout the preceding theads. After all, if H20Man and several Democratic Senators have information pertaining to this date, I can't see how the other side hasn't known about it for at least the same amount of time.

Bush announced this ridiculous FMA months ago, it seems, and it's suspicious to me that the actual vote would be arbitrarily scheduled on 7/14...

[Pallas180]

234. Taco, yes the misadministration does do that. Can I ask what

is FMA?

Something Marriage Amendment?

[milkyway]

236. MUST READ: article in post #207 by Me is originally from another site

authored by Jim Sinclair on June 27.

http://jsmineset.com/ARhome.asp?VAfg=1&RQ=EDL,1&AR_T=1&GID=&linkid=2237&T_ARID=2253&cTID=-1&cCat=&PRID=-1&cSubCat=&archive=&highstr=Plame&UArts=

The author is a financial heavyweight in the gold market. Elsewhere on his website he calls for Novak to be put in jail, and he has a lot to say about postponing elections.

<snip>

Since the publishing date of the interview with General Tommy Franks in “Cigar Aficionado,” I have written about the possibility that elections in the US could be postponed indefinitely in the case of a major terrorist attack that produced large casualties anywhere in the Western world.

General Tommy Franks’ interview with Cigar Aficionado included the following statement regarding the potential aftermath of such an attack:


”It means the potential of a weapon of mass destruction and a terrorist, massive, casualty-producing event somewhere in the Western world – it may be in the United States of America – that causes our population to question our own Constitution and to begin to militarize our country in order to avoid a repeat of another mass, casualty-producing event. Which in fact, then begins to unravel the fabric of our Constitution.”


This comment from Benjamin Franklin also deserves attention in the context of what General Franks says above:


“If the citizens of a state give up their liberty to achieve safety, they will have neither.”


An example of giving up liberty for assumed safety was the shameful shifting of votes last week to maintain the onerous “Patriot Act” which it is not. Do you know that since the mid 1990s the US National Security Agency (so secret they deny their existence) collects intelligence that every three hours is equal to everything stored in the entire library of Congress?


I can only wonder if the draconian surrender of liberty post 9/11 by the US populace in their almost manic greed for personal safety really qualifies them for an elected head of state.


What do you believe the result would be if Benjamin Franklin or Thomas Jefferson were subjected to the tenets of the Patriot Act or the long lines waiting to board commercial aircraft?
Do you know that the original patriots of the 13 colonies did not initiate the Revolutionary War for independence because of some tea party in the harbor of Boston? They risked their lives and fortunes in war because British troops at security checkpoints groped and humiliated them while looking for weapons.

<snip>

[Snazzy]

240. Sam guy had something directly about Plame

Sounded very serious about it being worse than Watergate--also had a couple of details I hadn't seen about Plame's cover co.

But I have no idea how to confirm the source--he wants to sell gold, clearly, and a US meltdown helps.

Sorry no link, on there somewhere (gotta sleep or I'd go dig it up).

Edit: ok, I looked. It's on the page you linked (I think you quote is from something else--front page I guess. Worth a skeptical read anyway. Ok groggy, I be gone).

[TacticalPeek]

238. Fresh Joe:

"Everything they have put into play since Sept. 11 has come up horse turds," Wilson said when he spoke Sunday at the Sopris Foundation State of the World Conference.

My man!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=682227#

:evilgrin:

[LibertyorDeath]

242. The separation of powers would vanish.

What had been merely a rumor has now become fact.

The Bush administration has asked for legislation enabling it to postpone the November election as a result of a terror attack. While worded very carefully to suggest that an attack must take place for such a move; I do not see either of the below stories unequivocally state that, if granted, these powers might not also permit elections to be “postponed” on merely a well-publicized threat. Don’t believe the press stories. Read the legislation when it is introduced to see what it says there. If that discretion is included then we are at the edge of an abyss more dangerous than anything we have ever faced.

These powers, if enacted, will go to the Department of Homeland Security. DHS would also be the entity to decide when, or if, postponed elections would be held.

Allowing suspension of the elections on just the threat of a terror attack would create a hole in the legislation big enough to drive an oil tanker, or an open dictatorship, through. Since the legislation has not been seen yet we do not know what it will say. Once introduced, the bill would then go into Senate and House Committees (Republican controlled) where the language could easily be modified to give discretionary power to the Administration. At that moment the Constitution would overtly cease to have any operational meaning at all. The separation of powers would vanish.

More

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/061204_electi...


IS THIS TRUE can someone please tell me is this the case.

" At that moment the Constitution would overtly cease to have any operational meaning at all. The separation of powers would vanish."

[TacticalPeek]

244. "This is the most dangerous moment in American history."

"This is the most dangerous moment in American history."


Senator Jay Rockefeller, July 11, 2004

[Pallas180]

252. LIBERTY - as I read FEMA/HSA-the moment they take over

in a declaraton of Martial law,the Constitution of the United States and Bill of Rights become completely nullified as if they never existed.

[H2O Man]

243. "The Constitution supposes,

what the History of all Govts demonstrates, that the Ex. is the branch of power most interested in war, & most prone to it. It has accordingly with studied care vested the question of war in the Legisl."
- letter from Madison to Jefferson, 1798

Good morning, brothers & sisters!

It's July 13th, 2004 .... and 206 years after Madison wrote this message to Jefferson .... we see the executive branch trying to take all of the power vested in the legislative branch .... the war powers as well as the idea of determining the "timing" of elections. We have our work cut out for us.

Let's get to work. I'm going to put a few posts on the other forums, asking interested DUers to join our efforts and participate in the letter-writing campaign that we are involved in. I again request that you help us reach the modest goal of 100 people writing letters on the Plame case this week.

Likewise, I will try to focus attention on a "lobbying campaign" with the Congress regarding the "timing" of elections. This is becoming one of the clearest examples of the administration attempting to upset the balance of powers that our democracy demands.

[Tellurian]

246. Bush is not "upsetting the balance of powers"- He's consolidating it..

into a dictatorship!

[shraby]

248. On the election fight

what do you think would be the most powerful words to jog congress?

[Pallas180]

253. SCHRABY: Citizens prepared for _rmed _ _ surrection might

jog them.

[H2O Man]

280. Pallas180 ......

Where are you today? Do you think we will hear more from the one individual? It's hard to tell sometimes if one is dealing with a person looking to disrupt, or someone who is sincere, but lacking in social graces. When the working class become the upper middle class, they can shed their manners in a generation, you know. (grin)

I'm hoping that you'll be joining the discussion this evening..... I'm also hoping the Ambassador gets busy answering some of this horseshit. These people have such gall .... it's like when they attack Kerry on his service in Vietnam, when none of them had the balls to serve. The "document" they point to is a forgery; Wilson was sent by CI, and there is no serious "source" that has indicated his wife had anything to do with his being selected; his work in Niger was very thorough, and supported the independent conclusions of other investigators; and the VP had a 3-8-03 meeting to outline a plan of attack on Wilson, four months before his NYT op-ed article exposed bush as a liar.

[Pallas180]

297. HI Harry Too - Just got in about 5: 30. gathering thoughts

be there soon

[Pallas180]

316. H20, If I were you, I would send by e mail, yr last paragraph

starting with " These people" to all the cable news and regular news
shows.

It lays it out perfectly AND WOULD GIVE THEM ALTERNATIVE TALKING POINTS

Go for Olbermann Msnbc

Matthews on Msnbc

Tim Russert - is he nbc or cbs?

they may be upthread provided by Calimary or google.

But you have a talent for putting things in such an orderly and
succint way - it will draw attention and they may read it on TV

don't forget to e mail C SPAN

and you should have heard the callers to C SPAN this morning - 98%
are enraged by the trial balloon of "postponing" elections. AND believed it was a political move so dimson could remain in office.

The Great Silent Majority is not what this admin thought it was!

________________

On the other subject H20. When a dog bites me, the next time I see that doggy I make a wide circle around it.

My mother used to call it "intelligent neglect". What did your mommy say? :)

[H2O Man]

338. I hear you, very clearly!

I do thank you for what you did. You do realize what is happening, of course.

[Tellurian]

264. shraby, the most powerful words would be the *Truth*..

It's too late for insurrection-

Congress needs to have their conscience prodded, with full page ads and tv media, to do their jobs by honoring the oath they swore when they took office. To Defend and Protect the Constitution and the citizens of the US.

Moveon should be the ones to focus on Congress with a major media blitz.

[Pallas180]

320. TELL, I agree - full page ads & media, but MoveOn has been

painted by Congress thugs, successfully except to us liberals,
as a far left RADICAL liberal communist socialist pinko group.

You do realize that at times I post things that are very tongue
in cheek don't you? As in what would get congress' attention?
--rmed --surrection!

By the way, there are words that should not be spelled out or used fully. Sure there could be physical monitoring of threads, but mostly
it is by this massive machine that is programmed to pick up certain
words : like --rmed --surrection,

I heard it used to be in England cause it was illegal to monitor here in America, but since Patriot and Poindexter and DARPA they are firmly planted here?

Have any info on that TELL ?

[kohodog]

323. Hey Pallas!

I noted that in one of your earlier threads...but this is amurika. We're free and they hate us for our freedum.

But we still have free speech (sort of)!

Home from work and a little punchy, but your point is well taken. Even in jest there are words and phrases that shouldn't be spoken.

Is "FUCK BUSH" one of them?

[Pallas180]

327. KOHO you bad. ROFLMA-ever really laugh hard when alone at computer?

yeah Koho, pluck that anal aperture might be one of them...laughing still.

[Pallas180]

254. This Admin always does the opposite of what it says its going to do:

therefore, if Condoleeza Rice was on tv yesterday saaying she didn't know where the rumor came from that elections would be postponed,
and there was no plan as such, can we suppose with this bill before
Congress, this is exactly what they propose to do?

And after that, no elections, and are we not in dictatorship?

[shraby]

255. With the repub congress,

they just might get what they want..the ability to postpone elections. Shit Shit and double Shit.

[coeur_de_lion]

247. H2O I hope I never have to argue with you, friend

I've been reading your exchanges with AL and I am awfully glad I'm not her. :eyes:

We do indeed have our work cut out for us. Aside from writing letters, which I will start in the AM, what can I help with?

And how are you today, sir?

[H2O Man]

250. I am very well, indeed!

Point of interest: I rarely, if ever, argue ..... at this point in my life, I have no need to .... and not because I have an inflated opinion of my own opinion .... but because I have an appreciation for other people's "right" to see things differently than I do. And that's the way it should be .... because if any two people think just alike, only one is thinking. (smile) And as my good friend and brother Rubin once told/taught me: What do you have if there is a wise man arguing with a fool? Two fools!

The strength that we can see here is available because we have a circle of good minds. Like a finely tuned engine, we need all of our pistons working properly .... except we are in a realm beyond the physical .... meaning the engine, or the "machine" .... we have moved into the realm of the human mind .... and all human with healthy minds desire peace, and there is an ability within all of those people -- especially the young -- to grasp and hold tightly to the principles of righteousness. And those principles of righteousness demand that all thoughts of prejudice, privilege, or superiority be swept away .... and that recognition be given to the REALITY that this creation is intended for the benefit of all .... equally. And that recognition is why young children and teens and young adults have the clearest sense of environmental responsibility .... because a healthy mind KNOWS that the creation includes the air and water, the trees and the animals .... as well as the people.

But I ramble! (smile) A good goal for today is to take enough time to appreciate, in your own way, that life is a miracle .... and that today is a part of that miracle. From that foundation, we are best prepared to get to work, and encourage others on DU to participate in our little letter-writing campaign. We build a base, knowing that when others need letters written, etc, we have organized in a way to get the job done!

I enjoy our conversations.

[coeur_de_lion]

258. "we are in a realm beyond the physical .... "

"What a piece of work is man! how noble in reason! how infinite in faculty! in form and moving how express and admirable! in action how like an angel! in apprehension how like a god! the beauty of the world, the paragon of animals! ". William Shakespeare; Hamlet: Act II, Scene II.

Hamlet meant this sarcastically, I suspect, because he says so in the lines directly after this quote. I’m not being sarcastic, though, when I say that I’ve been impressed with the people on this thread; the thought they put into their posts, the time spent researching the different aspects of this issue, and the respect they show one another. I certainly never expected to find something as interesting as this on DU, and I suspect not many on this thread did either. By happy coincidence we’ve found one another and will together accomplish something valuable with our letter writing project. Aside from our letter-writing activities, though, I think we’ve accomplished something in that we found a group of highly intelligent, genuinely patriotic, thoughtful people. Those involved in this thread worked together to inform one another, exchange views, develop plans, and accomplish something (I think) big.

We none of us know one another. We don’t know what each other looks like, what is the color each other’s skin, our age, and in many cases even our gender. Without worrying about any of those things we all contributed something worthwhile to a very honorable cause. It has been a sustained effort over two weeks now. I think that is truly remarkable. Your role as I’ve seen it is a guide of sorts, a teacher, and sometimes a poet! It has been fun, and certainly very instructive. I wonder what the outcome will be? I'm certainly looking forward to finding out.

[Occulus]

293. Perhaps we should

share addresses- physical addresses, via email, or IM, or phone- and scedule a meeting, six months or a year from now.

We've established an inner network here, people. What I've seen here is, pardon me, the best of the best. I can honestly say this is the best discussion I've ever seen on any thread in any discussion board, ever.

Maybe these six (so far) threads are only the first step.

[coeur_de_lion]

294. I'm not opposed to that kgfnally . . .

But some folks on here would like to keep their identities unknown. And we have to respect that. Once all the letter writing is done we can always have those folks who are interested PM their email addresses to a designated DU member. I don't mind volunteering.

But once again, we really do need to be careful and respect he privacy of those folks who would rather remain anonymous.

[Pallas180]

308. KGNFALLY - I'm trying to set up a separate IRC =I'm in agreement

with your idea, but give me a little time to get it up and running.

[Occulus]

317. Are you talking about

Internet Relay Chat?

If yes, great idea! But, I think IP addresses are listed in user's information on IRC. Might want to keep that in mind.

Maybe an invite only channel?

[Pallas180]

322. agreed KG. How good are you at computerez? I can take em

apart but not program :)

[starroute]

260. Liberals don't cope well with completely unscrupulous enemies

This latest episode of the Plame indictment thread has gotten me thinking about the question of what constitutes effective action -- and whether liberals are inevitably self-handicapped.

In part, this was because of another DU thread last night, where someone was asking the perennial question, "When did liberal get to be a dirty word?" That got me thinking about how the change really started on the left, not the right, going back at least to Phil Ochs' "Love Me, I'm a Liberal" (1966).

At the peak of the anti-Vietnam War movement, there was a sense that liberals were fairly useless against something like the Nixon repression, because they held onto a naive faith in the system and could easily be sandbagged by anybody who was willing to break the rules. But at the same time, a radical group like the Black Panthers was equally vulnerable to being demonized and then shot up. I became convinced that there had to be some sort of middle ground, and I've been struggling for thirty years to define what that middle ground might consist of.

Part of it is tough-mindedness. Liberals are notoriously not tough-minded. Conservatives like to think that they are, but most of the time they're simply ruthless and self-serving. Real tough-mindedness has to be primarily a matter of remaining clear-eyed and self-aware, even in a crisis, and knowing what to hold onto and what can be let go of.

Part of it is the question of how to operate outside the system without being a criminal. I look for examples of that anywhere I can find them -- which mostly turns out to be in films, ranging from "Yojimbo" to "Pirates of the Caribbean" to Bugs Bunny cartoons. And then I think about how to be a trickster or a pirate or a ronin in today's world.

A large part of the secret, I believe, is that you can't be part of the system, but you also can't try to fight the system directly. You have to operate in a higher dimension where you can be "invisible" to anyone who is following ordinary political assumptions.

At the moment, the 2004 presidential campaign appears to be operating within the rules. And it is obviously in our best interests to keep it that way. But at some point, the rules are going to break down -- if not this year, then in 2006 or 2008. And then we are going to have to find that higher dimension to operate from -- and possibly do it very quickly.

The Internet is serving as such a higher dimension at the moment, at least as far as fund-raising and boards like this one are concerned. But we're all painfully aware of how vulnerable the Internet would be to really concerted government repression. What other higher dimensions are available to us? And how do we make ourselves into the kind of honest outlaws who can navigate them successfully?

[shraby]

261. We have another fight on our hands.

They want to pass a piece of Patriot Act II which will expand the death penalty.

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1983054>

[kohodog]

303. Thanks for the info Shraby

Another letter written! These guys are driving us into a place we really don't want to go.

[Pallas180]

307. Starroute-a thoughtful & interesting post. What about being

an outlaw within the system? A monkeywrench in the wheel? Could that
be a better choice than being a hunted outlaw without the system? Not
much you can do to revolutionize the system in a jail cell, except of
course revolutionize your fellow prisoners. Not fun.

If we think about it, many of those who started as "outlaws" as "Tactical" pointed out, are now working within the system, like
Representative Rush,a former panther; Tom Hayden, former Nam Anti-War
activist became an elected official, the bombmakers of the Weathermen
are now professors at colleges.

Work outside the system, you're the outlaw out in the cold without important societal support, within the system legally, you get the support of others and perhaps powerful others who think the same way.

Of course, I;m not talking about civil disobedience which ususally sets the tone and leadership for the rest of the country (eventually, anyway) I still consider that within the system. After all there is still a First and Fourth Amendment isn't there?

Or is there?

[yodermon]

262. The Joe Wilson smear job continues...

... as expected, and in particularly smug and nasty fashion. By the usual suspects. (Clifford May @ National Review :eyes: )

http://www.nationalreview.com/may/may200407121105.asp

Joe Wilson's cover has been blown. For the past year, he has claimed to be a truth-teller, a whistleblower, the victim of a vast right-wing conspiracy — and most of the media have lapped it up and cheered him on.

After a whirl of TV and radio appearances during which he received high-fives and hearty hugs from producers and hosts (I was in some green rooms with him so this is eyewitness reporting), and a wet-kiss profile in Vanity Fair, he gave birth to a quickie book sporting his dapper self on the cover, and verbosely entitled The Politics of Truth: Inside the Lies that Led to War and Betrayed My Wife's CIA Identity: A Diplomat's Memoir.

The book jacket talks of his "fearless insight" (whatever that's supposed to mean) and "disarming candor" (which does not extend to telling readers for whom he has been working since retiring early from the Foreign Service).

...

etc, etc, ad nauseum

(edited for spelling)

[shraby]

263. I just noticed you were quoting

the National Review...sorry. Welcome to DU :hi:

edited for my error

[Tellurian]

265. Clifford doesn't say why, if Wilson's claims are so baseless..

why has Bush gone ahead and hired a private attorney to defend him, if necessary, from a Grand Jury indictment of Wilson's claims.

[Renew Deal]

266. These guys are so full of shit.

I am sure there we high fives and hugs. Any proof? Bullshit :puke:

[coeur_de_lion]

267. there they go again . . . n/t

[shraby]

268. Please check out my link

in no. 261. Apparently the expansion of the death penalty will include domestic terrorists which is very loosely defined. (Civil disobedience?)

[coeur_de_lion]

270. Oh. My. Cheneying. God.

Another letter writing campaign is in store for us. When is the vote?

I can see us all now, sitting on death row for peacefully protesting the stolen 2004 election. I'll bring the harmonica. Who wants to be my bitch?

Y'know, I didn't want to say this before, I'm a nice person, but I don't like our president. No, don't like him at all. You could even say, I hate the Cheneying rat bastard with a passion.

:mad:

[shraby]

271. The link I have goes to

the page with a link to the ACLU. The ACLU will fax to your congressman. Don't have to write anything, but it's scary enough to make a person shit bricks.

[coeur_de_lion]

273. I'm on it, Shraby. Just sent a fax to my rep, who happens to be

Ginny Brown-Waite. HAH! What are the chances she'll listen to me?

Thank you for that.

[shraby]

274. We can only try..my rep. is a pub too.

[coeur_de_lion]

276. I think I'm going to send that one to my friends via email.

That is a real quick and easy thing the ACLU set up. I wish we could set something that up for our Plame letters. Anybody here know how to do that?

[Pallas180]

326. SCHRABY PLEASE REPOST ACLU LINK ON THE BOTTOM

I mean the link to the free faxes to the reps

as a matter of fact it wouldnt hurt to repeat that post every 10 or 15 posts, ? thanks

Rethugs say ACLU is another pinko commie organization.

a commie under every bed

is this 1950 or 2004?

[Pallas180]

328. Hi Yoderman. Nice of you to stop by.

:hi:

[TacticalPeek]

329. Welcome to DU, yoderman!

:toast:

Cliff May or May Not, but his party is going straight to hell! :kick:

[robertpaulsen]

272. Hello! What do you think of my letter to the media regarding Plame?

I've written a rough draft of a letter encouraging the media to pick up the slack on the Plame investigation. I'm curious about your input. Don't hesitate to let me know if I'm taking the appropriate tone, or if I left out anything important that I need to impress upon them.

Dear

Next month, our country celebrates a rather infamous anniversary. It has been 20 years since Richard Nixon resigned from the office of the Presidency. This momentous event was brought about in no small part to the diligence of a free and inquisitive media propelled by the groundbreaking investigation of Woodward and Bernstein into the crimes and the cover-up of those crimes at Watergate. Without the persistence of the media at that time, the crimes of the Nixon administration would never have seen the light of day.

20 years later, our country faces another scandal that John Dean, one of the key figures in the Watergate cover-up, describes as worse than Watergate. I know you are all familiar with the outing of Valerie Plame as a CIA agent. This is a scandal so serious that John Ashcroft had to recuse himself from the case, because of his association with key figures connected to this scandal who may or may not face indictment for this incredible breach of national security.

However, I am writing because I am frankly underwhelmed at the lack of media attention given the Grand Jury investigation into this scandal. All that I have learned from the major media outlets regarding this investigation is that Bush and Cheney had to retain a private lawyer and that Bush was questioned by Fitzgerald for 70 minutes. What I am asking for is that you pursue a journalistic investigation into the Plame scandal with the same diligence that you pursued the Watergate scandal.

Are you aware of Joe Klein's article in Time from June 27 regarding Valerie Plame? He says, "Furthermore, there is intense anger over the White House's revealing the identity of Plame, who may have been active in a sting operation involving the trafficking of WMD components". This is explosive information that I have not seen anywhere else. Further investigation must be done in order to assess the full implications of this "sting operation".

You have a unique and important challenge that lies ahead. I don't think I am overstating the matter by saying that the fate of our country lies in the balance. You must pursue every lead, every source, every angle you can related to the Plame scandal. Sure there may be bureaucratic resistance, but you have the First Amendment and the will of the people on your side. We must discover the truth. Please remain diligent, inquisitive and above all, persistent in your pursuit of the truth.

Thank you.

[coeur_de_lion]

275. beautiful, Robert! Just beautiful. Well said.

Mind if I pirate parts of it for my letter?

:evilgrin:

[robertpaulsen]

281. Don't mind at all, Arbust! Go right ahead.

One of the things I love about this thread is how everyone is joining forces as a united front. I believe progressive bebe called us a think tank. I say absolutely! We're all on the right track, now we just need to get the media and congress on our track.

[coeur_de_lion]

285. you're a peach, RP! n/t

[H2O Man]

277. I like it.

Good job!

[robertpaulsen]

286. Hey H2O Man! I watched JFK last night.

I was thinking about some of the things you wrote about Prouty when the scene with X and Jim Garrison came up. I haven't read Prouty's book yet, but I'll be looking for it.

X (Prouty) did say the real question is "Why?" Then he asked a series of questions to Garrison related to the JFK assassination that I shall transpose into our current scandal:

1. Why was Plame outed?

2. Who benefited?

3. Who has the power to cover it up?

I'm so glad you helped focus our attention on the why. We've uncovered a bit of information on what the "sting operation" may have constituted. I was wondering, in terms of defining the chief beneficiary of the outing, is it more important to think in terms of government or financial organizations? What would help us dig deeper into why this was done?

Thanks for the thumbs-up on my letter. I'll be sending that to the media contacts on Calimary's list. Then I shall go to work on a letter speaking out against the possibility of election "postponement". Then I'll encourage Time to give Joe Klein whatever he needs to maintain his investigation!

[H2O Man]

296. JFK is a great movie......

You have done a flawless job of transposing the questions from Dallas to Washington. And then you follow-up with a serious question on "who benefitted"? Is it government, or is it business?

I'm going to answer that, although there is some risk that I will repeat some information I put on the first thread of this conversation. It's nothing new, and certainly nothing original in what I'm saying. In fact, back before WW2, some of the most insightful thinkers around the globe noted it as a growing hreat to humanity. And Ike warned the nation, as you witnessed on the movie JFK.

Government and big business are the same thing. Look at Halliburton: my God, that is so unAmerican! This corporation in all of its manifest forms runs the foreign policy of America .... not for the good of our citizens (as Michael Moore showed so well!), but rather for the good of the investors!

Forget bush for a moment. Look at men like cheney, or rumsfeld, or any one of a dozen more in this administration: they serve in an administration, go into private business, serve in an administration, and go back and forth.

Behind this group are an even higher ranking "power elite." They are less likely to take government jobs. There are a few who go back & forth: in this generation, think of Jim Baker.

The military has obviously played a significant role since WW2. As Eisenhower noted, there was a danger posed by the military when as an industry, it dominated the economy. He didn't say there was a huge threat that the army would be patrolling the streets -- simply that they would run the business world.

The military, including the numerous and at times mildly conflicting CI & MI's served as the body-guards and enforcers for the government, for big business (think United fruit!), but particularly for that power elite. And the CI/MI often used resources from "private" forces, some who were independant contractors, and others who worked for specific foreign business interests.

JFK threatened the upper reaches of the business world, including the military industrial complex. Pallas180 may have something to say about JFK and McNamara "awarding" contracts to General Dynamics & Grumman, specifically to help in certain states in the upcoming '64 election. Also, obviously, he was "ending" US involvement in Vietnam, and had said he was going to deconstruct CI.

A combination of private contractors connected to some right-wing elements in MI and texas oil objected to Kennedy's plans.

Today, we see that this president funnels contracts to Halliburton, a company that pays cheney more than his VP position does. And we see how Halliburton "contracts" a "private army" that is nothing if not the American sibling of the Central American death squads they trained in the 1980s.

Add to that the Iran-Contra scandal, VP bush vs senator Kerry, and we've come full circle.

[robertpaulsen]

304. Before the mods lock this thread...

Arbust and I were wondering what you think of the link on either post 207 or 278. Great stuff there on how the Plame scandal could effect the business world.

Great post here on the connections between the world of business and the world of politics. I'm into the 4th chapter of House of Bush House of Saud, which is very illuminating so far about this very subject.

[H2O Man]

306. I think it expands

on the very subjects that we have been discussing on here. Note: I saw a thread that says Wilson is speaking out, I believe this evening. The ceremony is about to begin.

[AVID]

312. H20 - Doesn't Bugliosi debunk the movie "JFK". . .

and Oliver Stone in his introduction to "Betrayal of America"?

He is convinced of a single shooter and believes the Warren Report.

Your thoughts?

[H2O Man]

331. What Vince does is to

say that he is frequently able to silence an audience in the following way: generally, about 85% of the public does not believe in the Warren Report .... Vince asks those who do not believe in it to raise their hands .... let's say that 85 out of an audience of 100 people raise their hand. Then he asks how many have read the entire warren Commission report? Usually, none of the audience has. Bugliosi then says that those who have not read the report are in no position to make an informed judgement on it.

As many who have read my posts on here know, I have a very high opinion of Bugliosi. I think he is extremely smart, sharp as a tack, and a very talented debater. He is also as honest a man as you will find in public life today. He has been working on a 2-volume book on the Kennedy assassination.

I think that it's important to remember that people who respect and admire each other can have honest disagreements. Vince is wrong on the JFK assassination. His little bit on who's read the entire Warren Commission report is merely a debater's point. I'm serious here -- not just blowing my horn: I'll debate him any day of the week, in front of any open-minded group of people, and I'll have at very least 99% of any audience knowing without any doubt that the Warren Commission is flawed.

Two things: first, remember the old lawyer's debating point about the apple pie -- if you find a dead insect in the first piece you cut, you don't have to eat the whole pie to know it's no good. (And I'll bet there's no one in the United States EXCEPT Vince that's read that entire dismal batch of crap! No wonder he hasn't finished his project.)

We don't even need to go as far as the "magic bullet" theory to entirely discredit the Warren Commission. One of the most decent politicians of the last century did it in one page of his biography. The Man of the House, by Tip O'Neill, on page 211: this honorable man respected JFK. He tells us he never believed in any conspiracy, until he had dinner with Kenny O'Donnell and Dave Powers, Kennedy men who were with him in Dallas. They told the FBI investigators that at least some of the shots came from in front, near the grassy knoll. The FBI pressured them to lie. O'Neill doesn't go into full detail, but as great of an attorney as Vince would have to admit that if the investigators assisting the WEarren Commission pressured these top aides to KNOWINGLY LIE UNDER OATH for "the good of the family, so they can put this behind them,"(not an exact quote, but close) .... than the evidence has a fatal flaw.

Further, since the WCR was published, significant amounts of evidence that was withheld by the FBI and CIA has surfaced. There is no debate that this is true.

I have great respect for Vincent Bugliosi. But I'd spank him in a debate that goes by the rules of evidence as defined by our court system. Vince, if you read this, I'll do it with one hand tied behind my back. (smile)

[AVID]

336. I would pay to see that debate!

Thanks for the response. After your suggestion in Thread 1, I went and read the entire NATION article and the post scripts in "Betrayal of America" It should be required reading in every high school political science class.

[AgadorSparticus]

287. great letter, RP!!

I like it alot. I borrowed, paraphrased, and tweaked a letter this morning. I hope Koho and H2O will forgive me for using parts of their letter. They did such a great job of saying everything I wanted to say. So, I just used their framework and went from there. It was nothing great to shout about but it says what I want it to say. I spent a good deal of the morning faxing and emailing it out to various media outlets (including national and my local papers) and my senators and congressman.

Tonight, I will sit down and write a full letter regarding this asinine idea of postponing elections. I'll post it when I'm done.

[Pallas180]

288. ALERT DOING PIECE ON PLAME MYSTERY ! NOW

.

[robertpaulsen]

292. Hi Pallas! You've got my attention. Tell me more! n/t

[robertpaulsen]

290. Yes, borrowing from the Plame Think Tank is A-OK by me!

I'll be composing something particularly juicy on the election postponement trial balloon as well. I'm sure if anyone in the Bush misadministration reads it, they'll dismiss it as an "historical document" with no new information presented.

Just goes to show those who forget history are condemned to repeat it. I ask, "What would Abraham Lincoln do?" The BCCG asks, "What would Richard Nixon do?"

[coeur_de_lion]

289. PLAME ON CNN NOW

per this link:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=683343&mesg_id=683386

Someone watch it and post, please? I'm at work and can't see it.

[Pallas180]

295. Hi Guys, Squeaky Wolf on CNN - David Ensor reporting about

the Plame case "seems like a true mystery novel" (hmmmmmm)

no mention of what she might have been working on

emphasis on the fact that the Senate Intel Comm. Report

contradicts Joe Wilson's statements and an unnamed "former CIA TOP

OFFICIAL"

WH says Plame suggested Wilson - but -

Unnamed Former CIA Official ( I wonder who that could be :) ) confirms

to Ensor that Wilson's statement is correct, Cheney/WH suggested

______________________
Maybe we should send our "famous" Plame letter with our broad hints:
"Hey Dummy, Look here -> Cheney/Halliburton illegal exports"
to CNN attn: DAvid Ensor. I bet someone could call up MSNBC in NJ/or
Atlanta and get his e mail :) she said innocently.


Edit, Pallas comment: The famous two step shuffle : divert the attention to an unimportant detail rather than who committed treason by exposing her

[robertpaulsen]

298. I was just about to e-mail my letter to Charles Bierbauer at CNN.

Thanks for posting the link to Calimary's list above. I've been e-mailing like crazy this afternoon.

Maybe I should amend my letter to Mr. Bierbauer and ask to have this bit of info passed on to David Ensor. It can't hurt!

[H2O Man]

299. You'd almost think some of them

read our threads, eh? Yes, actually that is a GREAT idea about sending David Ensor etc letters. This is an important time. While we would all like to see this process in motion publicly .... it is taking longer than expected .... but through a unique opportunity ... and because we have a serious staff here .... we may be the operatives that create at least some of that public motion. Now ... wouldn't that be something? Let's do it!

[coeur_de_lion]

301. So basically nothing new, huh? Oh, how boring for you

At least now it is getting a bit of coverage! If they were smart they would be monitoring this board. We already did a lot of legwork & investigative reporting for them.

[robertpaulsen]

318. The last paragraph of my e-mail to Charles Bierbauer

If you could please forward this to David Ensor, I would appreciate that. Perhaps if he investigated the links between Plame's "sting operation" and Cheney/Halliburton illegal exports, he might have an interesting story.

Simple, but to the point.

I hope he forwards it. If not, I hope someone here finds Ensor's e-mail so I can send it directly.

[coeur_de_lion]

302. Any second they're going to shut us down & go to thread 7

I think I made post # 300!

[H2O Man]

305. Good! We need #7 ......

Ladies and gentlemen, the "action" has begun. Ambassador Joseph Wilson has begun to respond. It's on another GD thread. We need our own #7, and we need to have someone please put a few highlights on it, and others to go to the various other threads, and gather more troops.

[Langis]

309. #7 is needed!

This is my first post I have been to busy reading!!!

So is tomorrow still the day H20?

[robertpaulsen]

310. I'll go to the other threads & try to gather more troops!

The more minds involved, the better. Can't wait to see the action unfold!

[H2O Man]

311. Attention all moderators!

Moderation on the part of moderators of the Plame Indictment threads is no vice; and moderators supporting the effort to impeach cheney is indeed a virtue. --- Barely Goldwater, 1964

Could we have "thread #7" please? Thanks!

[kohodog]

313. Do the Moderarors have Names?

It just seems weird that they're not approachable by some name, even if it is different than the one they may use if they contribute. "Hey MODERATOR" just doesn't feel right on DU.

Maybe, though, we're not being moderated! 310 threads is alot.

CARRY ON! The 'rents aren't home! (but don't forget Big Brother)

[TacticalPeek]

315. ROFLMAO! Get 'em Karl! n/t

:kick:

[robertpaulsen]

324. If the mods don't lock this thread soon...

I won't be able to join all the fun in thread 7 until tomorrow.

But I'll still try to gather more troops in the next half-hour.

[kohodog]

314. Set up a meeting with your Rep

I was waiting for thread 7 and may bring this up again. Gather a few likeminded friends and set up a meeting with your House rep. They are adjourning at the end of next week (vacation), but in an election year i am sure they will be meeting with constituents. If you can gather a small group you may be able to meet with him/her face to face. The fat cats do it all the time, but we can do it too.

[kohodog]

319. How do you describe what's going in these threads?

I've tried to give a descriptive explanation of the Plame, but it's hard to describe what's going on here. My son (just out of college) took a peek and now he's following it.

I haven't been around DU long, but it seems to me that this is quite special. More great minds and insight will only make it even better. But all the disparate opinions and posts seem to be like a magnetic force pulling together many of the events going on around us and forming something greater than the sum of all the parts. It's really very interesting. And the naysayers contribution is very valuable too.

[TacticalPeek]

330. New Josh Marshall on Plame at TalkingPointsMemo!

Then there's the matter of legal jeopardy for the leakers. Taranto seems to believe that it is legally significant whether the White House officials revealed Plame's identity to damage her personally or to damage Wilson's credibility by alleging she played a role in sending him on the trip -- thus making her collateral damage.

Taranto's point is that the White House was just trying to damage Wilson politically, albeit with what Taranto believes is a valid criticism. They didn't have any particular desire to expose Plame's identity. It was just that it was necessary to expose her identity in order to attack Wilson's credibility.

This, as we noted earlier , is the imagined 'need to attack the credibility of political opponents' exception to the law in question, which pretty clearly doesn't exist. The Wall Street Journal must have some in-house attorneys that Taranto could discuss this with.


Bunch more
http://talkingpointsmemo.com

:)

[merh]

332. It would appear that the same idiots who wrote the

memos "legalizing" prisoner abuse and tortured helped the WSJ with this kooky "exception in the law". (imho)

[H2O Man]

335. That's the defense they are trying to use.

But it doesn't hold up under even a mild examination.

#1: On March 8, 2003, four months before Wilson even had the op-ed article exposing bush as a liar, VP cheney had a meeting in his office. In attendence were Libby, Newt Gingrich, and other high-ranking republican officials. The meeting was to outline ways to attack Wilson if he ever exposed the Niger lie. The Politics of Truth, page 452)

#2: On July 7, 2003, the day after Wilson's NYT article, journalist Robert Novak told a person he had never met before, on a street in Washington, that Wilson was a {deleted word} and that his wife was a CIA operative who specialized in WMDs. (NYT Book Review, 5-23-04, pg 9)

#3: Ambassador Wilson has two sources who are able to document that "when Rove learned that he might have violated the law, he turned on Cheney and Libby and made it clear that he held them responsible for the problem they had created for the administration. The protracted silence on this topic from the White House masks considerable tension between the Office of the President and the Office of the Vice President." (Wilson, pg 444)

[kohodog]

339. It will only work if it puts the media to sleep

Truth seems to matter little these days. Spin is King. It's just a matter of throwing something out that will allow people who aren't really paying attention to think that this is nothing more than political fodder, so it's ok to go back to Amecican Idol and not worry about it. Our elementary school teachers knew better than to accept "the dog ate my homework," but I'm worried about many of our fellow citizens.

Those of us who care need to hold this administration's feet to the fire and not let up. Talk to your family, co-workers and friends. Write your Congressmen/women and your local papers.

pleeeese!

(edited: typo)

[Snazzy]

337. And yesterday WSJ was commenting on a DU thread

making the rounds.

JMM dispatched with ease. Nice to have facts as opposed to spin as one's basis. You'd think WSJ would find a blogger with more weight. Or just friggin stick to bizness....

[Occulus]

334. I have opened thread #7.

Mods, please lock this one.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1987173

[Moderator]

340. Locking.

I will begin thread 7 momentarily.