Plame indictments.....Thread 3

[newyawker99]

Here is thread 2:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1920799


DU Moderator

[Moderator]

1. kick

[shraby]

2. Didn't make it as the first entry this time

but got in second. Want to say that I think the v.p. pick is absolutely great! What a dynamic duo they'll be.

[Political_Junkie]

4. Been working all day,

hadn't heard who he picked, I'm so relieved. I swear I was having nightmares last night that it was Gephardt! Good man, but how boring. I don't think he would have added anything to the ticket. Had other preferences, but I'm glad it's Edwards.

[H2O Man]

6. Gephardt could be a good

Labor Secretary. I think he is sincere about advocating for the working class. But he's not gifted in the sense that he could have helped this ticket.

[Political_Junkie]

21. I agree wholeheartedly,

he'd make a wonderful labor secretary. I just think that he should stay out of the limelight, he's not personable at all. I know that sounds shallow, but in this televised world, that matters.

edited because S & D are too close together on the keyboard.

[H2O Man]

28. It's not shallow

Being Secretary of Labor is huge. He would be the best choice for that, and to make it clear that he would be offered this important position would secure significant union support.

But in 2002, he showed that he was not capable enough to do battle with this administration in the lead role of the House, much less the White House.

[Political_Junkie]

32. H2O Man, I meant

that it sounds shallow to say that he's just not personable enough to be in the limelight. You are right about 2002, he fell on his face a bit. He's just not tough enough for these guys.
On another note, would it be alright if I sent you a personal message about a topic you discussed from the 2nd thread? It's sort of personal so I'd rather not post it here.

[Pallas180]

59. Not capable? It's almost as if Dems were ordered to lay back

(by leadership) and let the Gops run over them.

Diminished respect and loss of base is the result of their passivity.
IMHO :)

[kohodog]

83. Agree. GH is great on trade tough.

His positions on trade are the best of the (former) hopefulls. Clark also deserves a spot in the admin.

But this probsbly belongs in a diffeent thread!

[Renew Deal]

129. Good thing you weren't up early enough for the post headline.

[Political_Junkie]

158. I was!

But someone on the DU was saying it wasn't right and we should all just ignore it, so I spent the day at work, hoping they were right.

[shraby]

3. Didn't get in as first poster to this one,

but I'm here second. Just want to say the v.p. pick was absolutely the greatest! Go get em dynamic duo!

Whoops! my first post went to an error page so I reposted..looks like both made it.

edited for the whoops.

[shraby]

7. Back to the Plame treason....

it will be interesting to find out if Plame, the Iran leak and the stovepiped intell all are linked. I think the Plame investigation will bring it all together when it hits trial mode.

[Pallas180]

58. I nominate this MOD for the Nobel of Mods Award.

:D

[calimary]

5. Thread #3! I was up WAY late with the last one.

But if H2O Man is still around, I'm still left wondering about something from Thread #2. Why would rove be the little side door into cheney's office? Wouldn't he be the little side door into bush's office? Although I must say, whichever side door it is, I hope they kick it open with a battering ram.

[Occulus]

10. Not if Rove and Cheney are the ones

REALLY running the show.

I don't doubt that Bush* has smarts and is devious as all hell; nobody gets where that guy is (at least, noboy recently) without having at least a few outside connections. But Jimminy Jesus, this guy looks and acts stupid on camera... one wonders if he's been instructed to divert attention away from the real goings-on.

[Pallas180]

67. KGFNALLY - I strongly suspect he's dyslexic. the statements

that he never reads the papers, and any problem can be succinctly placed into two paragraphs, I think is a clue.

It might also explain his odd pattern of speech. Fuzzy thinking, inability to find the proper words, inability to put a whole sentence together.

But I agree with you. It doesn't mean he isn't shrewd or have street smarts, he just has an inability to articulate because of some kind of
learning disabilities. I strongly suspect this.

And he may have had some kind of therapy for "fuzzy" thinking.

If you remember, he was the one in the 2000 campaign who accused Gore of "fuzzy" math.

Dimson is familiar with that word "fuzzy" thinking I would bet because he's been told he has it.

And he does.

[Occulus]

72. Gosh, I had considered that a long time ago,

and thought, "now who would be dumb enough to let that happen?" Given your points, however, I'm reconsidering that. His comment about newspapers in particular was most revealing.

GGggrrr. The secrets that surround this guy and his whole family just reek of Really Bad Deeds....

[azmesa207]

80. Bush and fuzzy speech

The year of alcohol and drug abuse is the reason he cant put a sentence together dyslexic is not his problem

[H2O Man]

14. Good question ....

I think that I answered it on thread #2, although at least two of my posts didn't get on there .....

Rove is by nature a side-kick. I'm not saying that as a compliment or insult. It's just the role he plays in all of the important relationships with adult men. He's george's man friday.

Rove would not have known Plame's identity without one of a very, very few people telling him. I have zero respect for Rice and Powell, yet I think they can be taken off the top of the suspect list.

The guru of this White House, quite literally, is dick cheney. It is public knowledge that prior to the invasion of Iraq, he spent considerable time at CI. There are reasons to believe that cheney was attempting to force an opinion on the agency, that supported the White House line. Cheney crossed the line of thinking he was an enforcer.

Wilson's article in the paper certainly stung the White House. It's significance should not be down-played ... it was huge. But there was more, much more. Plame's on-going work was the ice berg under the water, that threatened to sink the ship of state.

Rove followed cheney's discreet instruction. He made a couple serious errors, of course. The first was to not commit his crime alone .... if he had merely called Novak, this would be significantly more difficult to have solved. But he's not good at this type of business. He called Eliot Abrams, a sinister man who every DUer should be aware of.

With Abrams, they made error #2: over-kill. They contacted six (and possibly seven) journalists. Initially, only Novak agreed to participate in the outting of a CIA operative. But think: that means that at the very least, nine people were aware of the identity of the two "White House officials" who leaked Plame's identity.

Keep in mind that cheney (unlike Rumsfeld) has a long personal relationship with Bush1. The first President Bush helped to define the practice of plausible deniability with the Iran-Contra scandal. Cheney was not going to tell bush before the leak occurred.

Much of the grand jury investigation centered on the cover-up. The identity of the person who Fitzgerald "turned" in December is being kept more secret than was Kerry's vp choice. Remember, the classic manner is to find someone a couple levels down, turn them, go up a step, turn another, etc etc. Look at who are the weakest links.

[shraby]

16. If Cheney did tell Bush, this still puts

Bush as an accomplice. Rove/Abrams should definitely have known better than leak to more than one reporter. The only reason they would have for doing a dumb thing like that was because it took several before they found Novak.
If Rove or Abrams was the one Cheney told, either one should have been smarter than to bring more people into play. How could they be so stupid?

[calimary]

23. WHy weren't they smarter about it? I'll bet it's because they got spoiled.

Spoiled in their arrogance and, at the time, their utter omnipotence. By then, they KNEW they had the media in the palms of their hands. There wouldn't be any questioning of their motives, since everybody was a lapdog by then, and thoroughly cowed. They were, by then, simply used to being able to do whatever they felt like, indiscriminately, without fear of consequences, because their experience to that point taught them that there would be no consequences. And if they thought there might be, they'd just shout "9/11!" a lot, and/or make threatening calls about loss of access to their victim's editor, producer, or boss, and that'd shut up the troublemaker. It was their pattern. If you've always been able to get away with stuff, you don't even worry about the details anymore because you're accustomed to getting away with it, no muss-no fuss. So you assume that's just always how it's gonna be, since you have nothing in your track record to warn you otherwise. Power is a drug, and it's awfully easy to become intoxicated, especially when it's your own perception of your own "almighty-ness." It didn't occur to them that anybody'd fight back, as Joseph Wilson DID, because up til then, nobody had dared to fight back.

If you also consider that rove is quoted as having screamed into his phone (with the office door open, and a former insider/now contributor to "Vanity Fair" sitting just outside waiting to come in) "Fuck him! Fuck him like he's never been fucked!" rove is a scorched-earth type, and perhaps here, he decided it would be best to fuck WIlson like he'd never been fucked, and that if one reporter knew, then five or six more in the know - would be even better. MORE nails in the coffin.

Perhaps he noticed that, after planting a seed or two (perhaps Novak hadn't been called yet), nothing had taken root, so he kept trying until he got a hit. Although here, too, his pattern in the past tells us he's planted stuff with Novak before (stuff that got used, alright) while they were all still in Texas. Again, then, perhaps it was just the heady times rove and friends found themselves in - that they were invulnerable, masters of their universe, the undisputed champs who would NEVER be knocked off their mountaintops, and that they could do ANYTHING they wanted by then, and get away with it. Because - once again - they always had.

If you get too comfy with some state of affairs, human nature dictates that your tendency then is to start getting sloppy. As the old saying goes - it's hard to get to the top, but it's even harder to stay there. Maybe ol' kkkarl and friends had such a long-running track record of success that they just assumed they'd always have the Golden Teflon Touch.

Most of the big blunders these people have made and are making come from hubris. And from overreaching. I'd bet this situation is no different.

By the way, H2O Man, thanks for weighing in, again. I'm sure you did offer an answer in the last thread, and I was probably just too thick, too overwhelmed, and it was way too late at night, to pick up on it. Or maybe it was one of those posts that fell through the cracks. I'm glad we're still kicking this one around. It sure gets you thinkin'!

[H2O Man]

26. This is very important:

You are hitting the nail on the head. The arrogance was a big, big part in their being stupid enough to make serious errors.

Tough guys and good criminals share one important trait: they are quiet. No need to be a loud-mouth jack ass. And when you see a pilsbury dough boy like rove pretending to be a tough guy, he's merely voicing decades of frustration.

These guys believed they were beyong the law's reach. Some of them still feel that way. But their domestic policies are no more fool-proof than their foreign policies.

[alfredo]

37. One rule of secrecy is to keep the circle small.

The more people in the know, the more chance for it being compromised.

Of course bush thought the media would stay loyal. He was wrong. He didn't count on Joe Wilson either.

[Ithuilwen]

44. Isn't there a Benjamin Franklin quote

"Three may keep a secret, if two of them are dead"?

[hansolsen]

82. Old CIA rule

If two people know something, it can be kept a secret. If three people know it, everybody knows. With one caveat: 10% of the people never get the news.

[alfredo]

125. Or in the case of the guys I worked with,

passed out drunk. Hey, it worked for us.

[dansolo]

169. They felt like they could control any investigation

I think that they believed that they could control anyone with an (R) after their name. Fitzgerald is the one who is ensuring that it is not a white wash.

[swag]

35. Right - accessory after the fact

[Pallas180]

66. Novak has been the GOP media mouthpiece for YEARS. so that

"it took several days before they found Novak" doesn't wash.

Likely more people were brought into play because Rove has a staff of
people under him who call the newspapers and tv and cable shows every day and give them talking points.

Cheney or Rumsfeld (and their top aides) with their separate intelligence "agencies" set up in their own bailiwicks would have gotten access to the covert names and knowledge of Plame/Wilson.

We can imagine, with the environment known in this administration for revenge and payback, the discovery of Plame's secret was passed on to the top aide of rummy or cheney who passed it onto the "boss" who would give the order to Rove " fix 'em " .

Now I don't have any access to the Grand Jury info or to the WH.
Just using a common sense following the path.

So that would give us at least: 1) the intel aide in the Pentagon)
2) reporting to top aide of Cheney or Rummy or both, 3) Cheney or Rummy passing it on to Rove, 4) Rove telling his assistants to place the calls. 5) The assistants.

That gives us 5 people in the headlights not counting dimson.

Dimson would make 6 and must have some knowledge or why would he have
consulted a criminal attorney (as Cheney did).

Of course it could be more limited to Cheney, Dimson, and Rove or
even more limited with Cheney and or Rove discussing it with Dimson
and Cheney or Rove making the calls to the top reporters himself.

That would limit it to just 3: Cheney,Dimson and Rove

"How could they be so stupid?" Arrogance. Belief in their total control. Such as continuing to say "Saddam has WMD" and there is proof and refusing to come up with such proof when the 911 commission
has demanded it.

Goebbels: The bigger the lie and the more often repeated the more
the people will believe it.

[never cry wolf]

17. That is exactly how he got Gov. Ryan

He started way down the pecking order and worked his way up til he finally has Ryan by the throat.

It was beeeyoooteee-ful!

Edited to add link to info on Abrams, he is pretty damn sleazy:

http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Eliot_Abrams

[Pallas180]

73. STEVIET - you're a treasure. great links - educating! n/t

:kick:

[Tellurian]

24. Rove is no more than an order taker and campaign guru..

you mistakenly give these people too much credit and power they don't rightly deserve.. The entire coven serve as underlings to a dubious group of power brokers you will never see. The Bush administration are the physical manifestations, wrt instruments, preordained as go-fors to accomplish the PNAC..

And thats all they are..Cheney, Rove, Rumsfeld and Rice are imbued with no more power then one has sitting on the board of directors of a *WASP* MAFIA. *White Anglo-Saxon Protestant*..

BushI is a major player and an integral part of the power broker group. He is the one who ordered the take down of Valerie Plame and passed the order down the ladder to be executed by Rove/Libby!

Sorry to say, you all are pinning blame on the soldier ants that guard the hive. When in fact, you can never move forward to seize the hive, because all in all, these people are irrelevant. They can all be replaced as they have been in the past when necessary.

Know this, they will do whatever is necessary to maintain the hive, unless the PNAC players (whos's names are listed in their manifesto) are ultimately removed from the board.

They will allow the removal of Bush simply because he was unable to deliver on his promises and has totally screwed up and left a dirty messs for all the world to see. Their goals of Global Domination through Energy are no closer to fruition than they were 4 yrs ago. If anything, by the attention drawn to Bush's blundering, they are worse off then they were before they decided to follow Bush's plan of military subjugation of energy rich countries to accomplish their goals.

[ewagner]

34. Yes, but

isn't there an arrogant denial of George I by Junior and his advisors? Haven't they publicly been rebuffed by members of George I's administration?

It's possible that George I is still in charge, but I can't square it with the facts just yet.

[Political_Junkie]

39. Seems to me

that Poppy is supposed to be in charge, but has lost control somewhere along the line.

[Tellurian]

48. Look at it this way..

Poppy is seated at a boardroom table with 12 other like minded world power brokers. Each of them powerful in their own right. They discuss currency, funding for world (energy exploration) projects, leveraging the economy for self enrichment, corporate mergers, national governments needing toppling...and so on.

The firm have engaged Bush and the US resources (although highly illegal) to set a giant foothold in the world's energy resources. This group of WWII generational megaliths have supported Bush in every way possible to get his son positioned in the WH to feed their fantasy.

Now, BushI is getting complaints from the firm..his son has squandered most of Americas political capital through his shameless arrogance and embarrassing diplomatic ignorance in foreign affairs. The group/firm are snubbed by the Euros, hated by the ME and are viewed as cannon fodder by the Russians. Their only ally, the UK want to dump the CIC as a fatal error in judgment and forget they ever knew anyone named Bush. If Blair has to go to complete the removal of the Bush stigma, then so be it..

I would say, BushI's tenure in this group are numbered. If he is asked to resign from Carlyle and his shares and holdings are bought out by the group, he is rich but powerless, leaving his son administrating presidenntial affairs on fumes with little or no support from the powers that be..

However, BushI would be forced to strike a deal. Leave this private club of World brokers, giving up his seat at their table in trade for protection for his son..Give up your seat and we'll guarantee no trial, no prison for JR...

Thats the way it's done in those circles of power...unless Bush becomes totally out of control and unmanageable. Well, I'm sure they have their own remedy's. (unless precontractual deals were struck...with remedial conditions covering worst case scenarios)

Cheney doesn't have the bargaining power of BushI because he is out leagued by his status designating him as agent and hired gun to JR.

If push comes to shove, and BushI is confronted with a choice of who is spared from the fire, JR or Cheney...SR will say, I'll do everything I can to help you survive. But sorry Dick, you know how it is, blood is thicker than water.. you'll have to take your chances on your own.

If you noticed the other day..the SCOTUS was suddenly struck with a case of conscience and denied Cheney's request for no legal counsel or trial for Guantanamo prisoners. Then sending his other case, a request for the expansion of presidential executive powers, like a hot potato, to a lower court. The Scalia/Cheney alliance does not bode well for Cheney.

It seem the buzzards within their own enclave are circling, and BushII is home alone. (of course with Karl, Condi, Dick, Donald and Colin) Leaving him to deal with a humiliating defeat by the dreaded Kerry/Edwards campaign ...on his own. At least, this is the way I see it falling..

[Political_Junkie]

55. Sounds logical to me.

Still, I wonder why they picked George in the first place. Even Poppy said that Jeb is the smart one.

[Tellurian]

71. I believe pecking order was used as the gauge rather than suitability...

on another note..

info just posted in LBN confirming my assessment of Blair's position with Bush:

Blair Admits Friction in Bush Relationship

LONDON - Facing hostile questioning in parliament, Prime Minister Tony Blair acknowledged on Tuesday some friction in his close relationship with President Bush and the political problems the friendship causes at home.

Blair used his sharpest language yet in the long-standing disagreement over the Bush administration's detentions at the U.S. Navy base in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, saying they "must end." And the British leader said it was likely weapons of mass destruction may never be found in Iraq.

"I have to accept that we have not found them, that we may not find them," Blair told the House of Commons Liaison Committee. "We do not know what has happened to them. They could have been removed, they could have been hidden, they could have been destroyed."

Blair rejected any suggestion that the stockpiles never existed and that Saddam had not been a danger to the world.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/ne...

...Blair is under great pressure. He may be forced into resignation to end the Iraqi headlining nightmare carried daily by the newspapers. If he goes, Bush will not be far behind.

[Dirty Hippie]

149. I believe it was suppose to be Jeb

but he lost the Florida Governor's race in 1996 so in 2000 he had been governor less than 2 years. George was elected governor in 1994.

[Pallas180]

85. I agree with this part 100% !

"Poppy is seated at a boardroom table with 12 other like minded world power brokers. Each of them powerful in their own right. They discuss currency, funding for world (energy exploration) projects, leveraging the economy for self enrichment, corporate mergers, national governments needing toppling...and so on."

"The firm have engaged Bush and the US resources (although highly illegal) to set a giant foothold in the world's energy resources. This group of WWII generational megaliths have supported Bush in every way possible to get his son positioned in the WH to feed their fantasy."

"Now, BushI is getting complaints from the firm..his son has squandered most of Americas political capital through his shameless arrogance and embarrassing diplomatic ignorance in foreign affairs."

@ @ @ @ @ @

and furthermore:

caused the devaluation of the dollar which they were all invested in, losing them a lot of money,

and caused oil to be bought and paid for not in dollars but in Euros which have surpassed the dollar in purchasing value

causing the power brokers to switch their massive investments into Euros, gold, and silver, but unable to do so completely causing the loss of billions to them,

and not making them happy campers. How far pappy's protection can
reach is the question.

[Tellurian]

113. No Pallas...thats not it...

There are no coincidences in life..

This statement:

"caused the devaluation of the dollar which they were all invested in, losing them a lot of money."

These people rarely lose money..We do, but they don't.. They have the wherewithal to manipulate the currency mkt by dumping millions of $$$ in one day to devaluate the dollar.. They create the leverage to make money with another currency..

"and caused oil to be bought and paid for not in dollars but in Euros which have surpassed the dollar in purchasing value"

Bush has been dumping off shore (Enron money for some time now, albeit slowly) I don't know what currency Bush has been using to purchase oil..it might not be currency at all.

"causing the power brokers to switch their massive investments into Euros, gold, and silver, but unable to do so completely causing the loss of billions to them."

No...no..the power brokers create the market. read graph 1

"and not making them happy campers. How far pappy's protection can
reach is the question."

HA! you get funnier and funnier all the time Pallas...a cobra likened to a happy camper...I must tell the Buddha's at the top of the hill that one.

[calimary]

189. This is a MOST intriguing analysis.

There's been much speculation about what goes on BEHIND the man (or men) behind the curtain. This makes sense, much as I dislike the conclusion that somehow finds junior skating away, scott free, AGAIN. Of COURSE bush senior would choose his own flesh and blood over cheney. And cheney doesn't have family in the string-pulling arena.

I'm wondering, though, HOW long young george will survive, and how long his damned dumb luck will hold out.

If he does survive, here's hoping HE gets folded into the Carlyle Group! Then, his Reverse Midas Touch will start doing its job on all of THEM!

[Tellurian]

195. Thanks, calimary...Have you noticed how they're letting Cheney slide..

no one is coming to his defense...not really.

Bush feigning a meager attempt at positive reinforcement of Cheney's attributes, noting during his speech in NC, Cheney is a decent, good man...(pardon-me while I barf)

Today, when Al D'Amato announced publicly the Pugs should be seeking another candidate for the VP slot. He wasn't just talking through his hat. He was told by the higher ups, Cheney has been axed from the team..and to begin floating the rumor of a VP change...

This is no coincidence or idle chatter.

Unbeknowns to Cheney, he may be the fall guy who conveniently flipped his lid at the wrong time for him, but the right time for Bush..He may be made to take the blame for every wrong thing Bush has done. I dunno yet...But the scent of blood is thick in the air..

we'll have to wait and see.

[Hutzpa]

203. That means we have a fight in our hands....

question is would he go down like a lame duck or would he go down spilling and squealing his guts out. (looking for my brandy...where is it..oh here it is, now sitting pretty and sipping) Singing "what a wonderful day it is today"

Its nice to know DU, you see I'm drunk already (babbling)


:beer:

[starroute]

210. He already tried that Carlyle Group thing

There's a thread from earlier today at http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1938436 with a quote from a current Salon piece.

"This is how the co-founder and managing director of the Carlyle Group remembered his first meeting with the man who would be president . . . 'I said well we're not usually in that business. But okay, let me meet the guy. I met the guy. I said I don't think he adds that much value. We'll put him on the board because -- you know -- we'll do a favor for this guy; he's done a favor for us. We put him on the board and spent three years. Came to all the meetings. Told a lot of jokes. Not that many clean ones. And after a while I kind of said to him, after about three years -- you know, I'm not sure this is really for you. Maybe you should do something else.' "

[Tellurian]

214. My recent posts concerning Carlyle...

just to clarify in case there is a mix up, are referring to BushI's possible resignation-

[Pallas180]

218. He already worked for Carlyle. They fired him for being a jerk.

:D

[burrowowl]

54. Apparently Poppy

is the only former president to keep up on free updates from CIA. He has resigned from Carlyle however ........????

[Political_Junkie]

56. Did he?

I hadn't heard that.

[Hutzpa]

204. Nor did I, now thats a surprised, axe coming down already...hmm n/t

[Tellurian]

86. There was some discussion about Poppy resigning from Carlyle..

in 03' but I think his resignation morphed into something in line with an independent consultant... After all, why else would someone at Carlyle act with such swift determination to buy up all the Lowes Theaters to prevent F911 from being shown?

googled this,

meet the players intro:

http://www.angelfire.com/indie/pearly/htmls/bush-carlyle.html

[Political_Junkie]

159. Thanks, Tellurian,

great link. I'll have to read it later though. Gotta leave for work soon.

[Kool Kitty]

139. And if he didn't resign and is still getting

CIA briefings? Doesn't this seem, well, UNSEEMLY, in light of the mutual admiration society that exists between Poppy and the Saudis, bin Ladens, etc.?

[Tellurian]

41. It appears what has happend is once they turned Bush on, they can't

seem to turn him off. He and his staff have gone rouge on their handlers...another FrankenBush story...

[Pallas180]

77. TELLURIAN - bzzzz - no cigar. doughboy is an integral part

of the administration with much power; as a matter of fact it is said he is the one making policy which is much resented by even House of Reps.

"The entire coven serve as underlings to a dubious group of power brokers you will never see. "

I really disagree. They are the power brokers who have been in the background for 50 to 70 years. Halliburton, oil companies, the signers of PNAC, the corporations. They are all up front now for everyone to see, all you have to do is do the slightest bit of reading to finger the names and the companies.

"BushI is a major player and an integral part of the power broker group. He is the one who ordered the take down of Valerie Plame and passed the order down the ladder to be executed by Rove/Libby!"

Certainly he is a major player and power broker around the world with all those involved in Carlyle. But he never never would have ordered the take down of an agent - UNLESS she was about to discover that he had passed on more spy machinery and WMD to a foreign entity than what we already know about. He has been at loggerheads with sonnyboy
over the invasion of Iraq and the running of the war. He has not approved. As head of the CIA he knows what they can do, and I don't think he would order anyone, especially not sonnyboy to mess with them.

Both Nixon and Pappy were in Dallas the morning of Nov 22, 1963 and flew out of Dallas that morning.

He knows what the agency can do and does.

[H2O Man]

89. Bush1 has great respect for Wilson.

This came as a result of the high quality work Wilson did on the eve of the Gulf War. It's interesting to examine the tension between the father and son, though.

People would be surprised to know the depth of Poppy's CI/MI connections, even going back to before 1960. Oil and Cuba. Oil and Cuba. Sounds like a recipe.

[Tellurian]

95. Something changed all of that... otherwise Plame would never have been

exposed...Plame was a target before Wilson was sent to Niger. Bush already knew what the answer was before he came back..He used Wilson's assessment in reverse in the SOTU Address deliberately because he wanted to place him in an unwinable situation. SHE was to be the scapegoat with a name as the excuse for bad CiA intelligence.

Joe Wilson tipped the scales by going public. Something, the Bush Cartel never expected him to do. He saved his wife from what would/could have been a public prosecution, scapegoating her and him as responsible for misjudgment on Bush's part.

edited for Pallis-

[Pallas180]

105. Tellurian, It was Wilson who went to Niger, not his wife. What

or why do you refer to her as having gone to Niger? All the
reports are that Joe Wilson himself went because he was familiar
with Niger and was a former Ambassador.

Do you know something we don't or is this simply a typo?

[Tellurian]

108. Pallas180, are you being deliberately obtuse...

Valerie Plame, is an Agency operative on weapons of mass destruction. Two senior administration officials said Wilson's wife suggested sending him to Niger to investigate the Italian report. The CIA says its counter-proliferation officials selected Wilson and asked his wife to contact him.

I didn't think it would be hard to put two and two together. Wilson was not the only target, so was Plame.

[Pallas180]

110. Patience Tellurian. I'm a very literal person, not obtuse. smile.

:)

[Tellurian]

114. Pallas, you know about my cigar phobia...I mentioned it last night..

now don't be cruel..

just mentioning those huge Cubans and I start turning green..:)

[starroute]

126. Allen Dulles may be Bush Sr.'s original link to the CIA

Prescott Bush hired Allen Dulles and John Foster Dulles as lawyers in 1934 to help conceal his father-in-law's ties to I.G. Farben, and they remained associated thereafter. The Dulles brothers also maintained their connections with German firms through the thirties and even during World War II. After the war, in 1950, the Dulles's helped Prescott Bush in his campaign for the Senate.

Allen Dulles became deputy director of the CIA in 1951 and worked closely with Averell Harriman, who was Truman's national security advisor. He became director in 1953, under Eisenhower, and quickly set about overthrowing Mossadegh in Iran and Arbenz in Guatemala. His tenure lasted until 1961, when he was responsible for the Bay of Pigs fiasco.

If Poppy was CIA before 1960, it was no doubt by way of his family connection with Allen Dulles -- possibly in much the same way that the Farish connection paved his entry into Texas oil circles. There is a Dulles-Bush-Harriman-Farish nexus which goes back into the 30's and which is strung together by oil, chemicals, and dealings with the Nazis.

[Pallas180]

131. Starroute - thanks - invaluable info - what a web - these

were also the people, especially Prescott Bush who were involved in the attempted overthrow/assassination of FDR.(Because he was ruining their "ruling class" status and instituted taxes) ?

Was it also Dulles who brought over German SS and formed the CIA, formerly the OSS, with them?

My gawd, so deeply and so long ingrained. Maybe total collapse and starting all over would be the best thing to do.

We, meaning the American people, would never be able to get them all out. Systemic deceit and double dealing and corruption.

[starroute]

142. Prescott Bush, not quite that bad -- Allen Dulles, definitely

As far as I know, Prescott Bush wasn't involved in the attempted coup of 1934. That was mainly the Du Ponts, who were far more outright fascists and admirers of Hitler. The Bush/Harriman bunch were just trying to make a buck and stay at least marginally within the law while doing it.

However, Allen Dulles was in the OSS during the war and there are rumors that he used his position there to help Nazi businessmen smuggle their wealth to Argentina. (He was a director of the New York branch of the Schroeder Banking House until 1944.) After the war, he supposedly also helped Nazis escape to South America.

According to an article here at DU a couple of years ago, "When the second world war broke out, the Dulles brothers . . . helped these companies hide their assets. As a result, many Nazi industrialist and their American collaborators maintained their wealth after the hostilites ceased. Supreme Court Justice Arthur Goldberg once stated that 'The Dulles brothers were traitors.' Some historians believe that Allen Dulles became head of the newly formed CIA in large part to cover up his treasonous behavior and that of his clients.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/02/04/05_killing.html


And according to a much-reprinted piece called "Paranoid Shift":

"Just before his death, James Jesus Angleton, the legendary chief of counterintelligence at the Central Intelligence Agency, was a bitter man. He felt betrayed by the people he had worked for all his life. In the end, he had come to realize that they were never really interested in American ideals of 'freedom' and 'democracy.' They really only wanted 'absolute power.'

Angleton told author Joseph Trento that the reason he had gotten the counterintelligence job in the first place was by agreeing not to submit 'sixty of Allen Dulles' closest friends' to a polygraph test concerning their business deals with the Nazis. In his end-of-life despair, Angleton assumed that he would see all his old companions again 'in hell.' "

http://www.onlinejournal.com/Commentary/011004Hasty/011004hasty.html


And I hadn't made the connection until you asked, but apparently it was Dulles who was responsible for making an end-run around Truman in bringing Nazi intelligence agents to the US:

"Convinced that German scientists could help America's postwar efforts, President Harry Truman agreed in September 1946 to authorize "Project Paperclip," a program to bring selected German scientists to work on America's behalf during the 'Cold War.'

"However, Truman expressly excluded anyone found 'to have been a member of the Nazi party and more than a nominal participant in its activities, or an active supporter of Naziism or militarism.'

<snip>

"When the JIOA formed to investigate the backgrounds and form dossiers on the Nazis, the Nazi Intelligence leader Reinhard Gehlen met with the CIA director Allen Dulles. Dulles and Gehlen hit it off immediatly. Gehlen was a master spy for the Nazis and had infilitrated Russia with his vast Nazi Intelligence network. Dulles promised Gehlen that his Intelligence unit was safe in the CIA.

"Apparently, {JIOA Director Bosquet} Wev decided to sidestep the problem. Dulles had the scientists dossier's re-written to eliminate incriminating evidence. As promised, Allen Dulles delivered the Nazi Intelligence unit to the CIA, which later opened many umbrella projects stemming from Nazi mad research. (MK-ULTRA / ARTICHOKE, OPERATION MIDNIGHT CLIMAX)"

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Fascism/Operation_Paperclip_file.html


The chronology in this quote is confusing, because the CIA wasn't yet in existence in 1946, and Dulles doesn't appear to have joined it until 1951. However, those CIA projects of the early 50's were certainly Dulles's responsibility -- and were also the ultimate source of the torture-light techniques of Abu Ghraib.

[starroute]

144. The CIA/Washington Post connection is also part of the story

My previous post was already too long, but there are a number of other points that are closely connected with topics discussed on this thread, so I thought I'd put them in an addendum.

In the 1950's, the Washington Post was run by Philip Graham, who had inherited it from his father-in-law. Graham was friends with Allen Dulles and other CIA figures and made the paper available as a mouthpiece for CIA propaganda. After he committed suicide in 1963, his widow Katherine took over ownership of the paper and hired Ben Bradlee to run it.

Bradlee had his own CIA connection, in that his wife's sister Mary had previously been married to CIA figure Cord Meyer. Meyer had joined the CIA in 1950 as the head of a division formed to give covert support to non-communist left-wing groups. He may have recruited Timothy Leary (who he had met in 1948) as an agent.

Cord and Mary were divorced in 1960, and she then had an affair with John Kennedy, in the course of which they may have used LSD together. Mary Meyer was shot mysteriously in 1964, and Ben Bradlee and his wife said they had seen James Angleton trying to break into her house and steal her diary describing the affair.

Quite frankly, this whole story is so bizarre that I've never known what to make of it. But it clearly has bearing on both JFK's assassination and Ben Bradlee's role in Watergate.

[Pallas180]

219. Prior to CIA it was the OSS - my uncle, now dead, was in it

and at Nuremberg trials, a lawyer. He once indicated not in so many words about the Nazis coming into this country, government at that time - 1940's - with disgust apparently at the corruption and lack of fairness in prosecuting some and not othes.

But it's nothing new because we, the American foreign policy and government did the same with the Japanese who committed horrifying
experiments to do with disease on the Chinese they captured or kidnapped. The Americans brought them back to America to work as scientists too.

Really moral bunch of people, our american govt. (sarcasm)

[Pallas180]

146. Prescott Bush, Auschwitz slave labor,

If we can find these Nazi connections on the internet why didn't the American press publish it while Bush 1 and 2 were campainging for the presidency?


http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0306/S00055.htm

"The Bush family made a profit from the Auschwitz prisoners’ slave labour. Prescott Sheldon Bush, ‘Dubya’s’ grandfather, had tight financial connections with the Nazis, thanks to which he multiplied the family’s fortune as a banker.

Prescott Bush was an executive and shareholder of the United Banking Corporation, which bought the Consolidated Silesian Steel Corporation from the Nazi industrialist Fritz Thyssen, who had been employing prisoners from nearby Auschwitz.

In the summer of 1942, the case was made public by the American press, which lead to the investigation of the financial records of UBC by the government.

On the 20th of October that year the authorities took over the company’s shares on the basis of an enemy trade act, which President Franklin D. Roosevelt had signed one week after the attack on Pearl Harbour in December 1941.

The corporation could still operate, but only if its actions would not in any way benefit the Nazis. Prescott Bush pulled out of the UBC as late as 1943 and for a period of time committed himself to fundraising for the casualties of war as CEO of the National War Fund. "

To view the original

[Tellurian]

90. I dislike cigars for personal reasons...no big whoop..

Who is doughboy?

And I strongly disagree with your assessment.

<<They are all up front now for everyone to see, all you have to do is do the slightest bit of reading to finger the names and the companies.>>


Please post the names and companies run by the world's power brokers who are so easily accessible..

Next!

[Pallas180]

115. Tellurian....Bzzzz no cigar is a reference to one of the first

tv shows - Groucho Marx - always had a big cigar in his mouth, quiz
show - if the guest didn't answer correctly a big buzzer sounded and
a rubber ducky fell out of the ceiling....the expression became:

BZZZZ - no cigar. ( I also remember Tyrone Power, Clark Gable, and
Betty Grable and when there was no television but everyone gathered around the radio for Fibber McGee's closet. H20 if you're reading this, dont you dare make a comment! :D)

Doughboy nickname for pudgy rove.

Name the powerbrokers: I already did in part 2 of the thread in a large post to H20 about Mr. X behind the scenes similar to kissinger, remember?

and you have named many of them also with your link to Carlyle. Good
work by the way in linkage.

but your link below does not work cause it says expired when I click on it.

Take it easy. I can disagree with your assessment without attacking and you should be able to view my different assessment and have it get you to thinking. We're all working a puzzle - some pieces will fit and some won't. When a piece doesn't fit someone may come up with a better fit. We're all working the problem and it's quite amazing.

Obviously 50 or 60 brains are better than one. In this case
too many cooks are not spoiling the broth but adding more flavor.

[TacticalPeek]

118. The duck dropped in if the guest said the "secret word".

(and wins a hundred dollars)

whispers to audience

"Tonight the secret word is: hubris."

:evilgrin:

[Tellurian]

123. Thanks for clarification, TP..

I had no idea the point Pallas was trying to make with the rubber ducky story...and then to top it all off, his summary was misleading..ahem, once again...

[Pallas180]

127. Tactical - - secret word - gave me a good chuckle

ah you remember!

then there is:

"The Shadoooowww Knowsssss"

particularly apropros for these threads. :)

[TacticalPeek]

132. You bet your life.

:evilgrin:

[Tellurian]

102. Read this...It points to Cheney... but even Cheney wouldn't breech

Poppy's power without his permission or order to out Plame..

link

Oh, it's not a good thing to fall into the NEVER, NEVER trap..

It's one of the Three Rules of Life:

1...

2...Never say Never

3...

[Tellurian]

120. The link works for me Pallas..however..I've posted the substance ennyway..

From Tactical Peak's link...post # 68

and a brief recap..I still believe the order came from Poppy. You may not believe it, but I do.. when you rationalize Cheney's actions..Cheney wouldn't do anything like this without consulting BushI or being told to do the take down...you can that to the bank!

"Work-up" on Wilson

IIRC, in appearances around his book publication and in the book, Wilson said that Cheney's office decided at a meeting in March, 2003, to do a 'work-up', presumably like a background investigation, on Wilson. The presumed motivation was to enable them to slime Wilson, since he could discredit their nuclear scam. March, 2003 was also when the IAEA pissed on the forged 'Niger' doucments, and thereby made one of their justifications an international joke. They would have perceived a need to shore up their 'defense' against Wllson, who I believe had already been nagging somebody in the admin about Niger not being involved in African uranium sales to Iraq.

If this 'work-up' is what led to the discovery of Plame's CIA job, who was doing the investigating? "Cheney's office" decided to do it, but who did the work? Government employees? FBI/CIA/OSP etc.? Private contractors? Staffers on their personal time, or Uncle Sugar's dime? Resources used? Any wigs required (for Watergate fans)? Tricky Dick got it caught in the wringer bigtime when he used the CIA/IRS etc. for vendetta work. Does Wilson, his book say who 'worked-up' on him? Even staffers would run afoul of what John Dean has written about as the "faithful service" of federal employees thing, fraud, etc., wouldn't they?

-----------------------


Fake Iraq documents 'embarrassing' for U.S.

From David Ensor
CNN Washington Bureau
Friday, March 14, 2003 Posted: 10:43 PM EST (0343 GMT)

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Intelligence documents that U.S. and British governments said were strong evidence that Iraq was developing nuclear weapons have been dismissed as forgeries by U.N. weapons inspectors.


"I'm sure the FBI and CIA must be mortified by this because it is extremely embarrassing to them," former CIA official Ray Close said.

snip

Close said the CIA should have known better.

"They have tremendously sophisticated and experienced people in their technical services division, who wouldn't allow a forgery like this to get by," Close said. "I mean it's just mystifying to me. I can't understand it."


If a mistake was made, a U.S. official suggested, it was more likely due to incompetence not malice.

"That's a convenient explanation, but it doesn't satisfy me," Close said. "Incompetence I have not seen in those agencies. I've seen plenty of malice, but I've never seen incompetence."


more

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/03/...


Posted 4/29/2004 8:39 PM Updated 4/29/2004 9:53 PM

Cheney staff accused of role in CIA leak
By Mark Memmott, USA TODAY

WASHINGTON - Vice President Cheney was aware of a meeting held by his staff that started a chain of events that ended with the "effective betrayal of our country," former U.S. diplomat Joseph Wilson charged Thursday in an interview with USA TODAY.

snip

Wilson connects Cheney to the events involving his wife through a meeting he said occurred in March 2003. He charged that Cheney's staff - with at least the "implicit" involvement of the vice president - met and decided to investigate his background. The investigation, he said, uncovered his wife's role at the CIA.

"The office of the vice president, either the vice president himself or more likely his chief of staff, chaired a meeting at which a decision was made to do a 'work-up' on me," Wilson wrote in The Politics of Truth.

Vanity Fair magazine reported in January that Cheney's office denied that any such meeting occurred.

The "work-up," Wilson said in the interview, was begun in an effort to "besmirch me" because the administration knew he could challenge a justification for the war in Iraq - that Saddam Hussein had tried to acquire fuel for a nuclear weapon from the African nation of Niger

more

http://www.usatoday.com/news/w...

[burrowowl]

8. Like to know about Bu$h

nominatinig Porter Goss and its not coming until fall.
Ray McGovern has an article in Truthout: Cheney Cat's Paw, Porter Goss, as CIA Director.

[Pallas180]

88. News tonite : Lehman of the 911 commission is in running for CIA chief

:kick:

[burrowowl]

94. Interesting

needs gooling.

[seemslikeadream]

9. Anyone know if this is correct?

Mithras61 (1000+ posts) Tue Jul-06-04 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #11

22. I was under the impression that executive privilege only extends...


for 6 weeks after the advisor is no longer a sitting advisor. That means Tenet would be free to testify, under compulsion if necessary, after about the end of August. If my math is correct, that would put it right before the Repukelican Mational Convention. I wonder, do you suppose that has any impact on the timing of the resignation?

[Zorra]

65. According to an article by Mike Ruppert and Wayne Madsen,(ExPriv)

COUP D'ETAT:
The Real Reason Tenet and Pavitt Resigned from the
CIA on June 3rd and 4th
Bush, Cheney Indictments in Plame Case Looming

Under Executive Privilege, a principle intended to protect the constitutional separation of powers, officials in the Executive Branch cannot give testimony in a legal case against a sitting President. The Bush administration has invoked or threatened to invoke the privilege several times. Dick did it over the secret records of his energy task force and George Bush tried to use it to prevent Condoleezza Rice from testifying before the "Independent" Commission investigating September 11th.

Former officials of the Executive Branch are, however, free to testify if they are no longer holding a government office when subpoenaed or when the charges are brought.

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/060804_coup_detat.html

[burrowowl]

128. But will they?

"Former officials of the Executive Branch are, however, free to testify if they are no longer holding a government office when subpoenaed or when the charges are brought."


Here is hoping! Fingers and toes crossed!

[Tight_rope]

11. Why is the media not giving the Plame case any attention? n/t

[cthrumatrix]

12. you expect "journalism" from the corporate media cabal?

when is the last time they exposed something or connected the "dots" for american's?

[Tight_rope]

209. I just finished reading "OPERATION MOCKINGBIRD"!

"It was conceived in the late 1940s, the most frigid period of the cold war, when the CIA began a systematic infiltration of the corporate media, a process that often included direct takeover of major news outlets.

In this period, the American intelligence services competed with
communist activists abroad to influence European labor unions. With or
without the cooperation of local governments, Frank Wisner, an
undercover State Department official assigned to the Foreign Service,
rounded up students abroad to enter the cold war underground of covert
operations on behalf of his Office of Policy Coordination. Philip
Graham, __a graduate of the Army Intelligence School in Harrisburg,
PA, then publisher of the Washington Post., was taken under Wisner's
wing to direct the program code-named Operation MOCKINGBIRD."

more: http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/MOCK/mockingbird.html

I've been meaning to read it for some time now, but had not gotten around to it until today. Needless to say, it was mind boggling. I've known for years the the press was controlled by those with "BIG" money and "POWER", but never could find anything to back up my suspicions as to "WHY"! Bush administration has helped many sources/resources surface to people like me who searched for the proof.

As for this Incredible thread, I fear that I may need to ask DU for reimbursement of popcorn and beverages.

[shraby]

13. It's their job not to give the Plame

case any attention. I don't think they'll have much choice pretty soon.

[H2O Man]

15. The grand jury investigating the crimes

has not made anything public yet. Those who are participating in the process in any capacity are not allowed to speak openly about it. But that changes .... soon.

[Occulus]

18. So is everything that's connected to the GJ investigation

that we're talking about purest speculation, then? I mean, I know we have a lot of damning information just right here, but... does that mean we're just using logical deduction here, or is there hard evidence that's known but not bein discussed? :)

Hope that was clear to you; this whole thing is still sort of hard to wrap my head around.

[H2O Man]

20. Three people have discussed it publicly:

(actually, more have, but these are the three worth listening to)

(1) Joseph Wilson
(2) John Dean
(3) Joe Klein


Wilson, of course, is Plame's husband. Dean has provided the public to some fascinating information. Klein has, too. Dean and Klein have access to people closely connected to the case.

[Occulus]

36. Thanks.

That's reliable enough for me to feel comortable with :)

Not that I had forgotten who her husband was, of course; it's just that some (not here, but elsewhere) seem to think he's a biased source. Seems to me, bein her husband, that he'd know more than anyone about this situation.

That said- I bet he knows a whole lot more. I'd love to hear him talk about this in an isolated, unbugged room behind closed and locked doors. He probably has quite the perspective on this...

[Tellurian]

51. If you purchase Joe's tell all book...

The Politics of Truth

He explains everything in great detail..

great read with many insights into the covert operations of Big Brother.

[H2O Man]

53. It's a great book.

Fun to read, extremely informative.

[KoKo]

47. But, why out of the three is "Primary Colors" Joe Klein believable to have

access?? :shrug:

[H2O Man]

50. I'm curious what you mean by:

"...out of the three ...." please explain?

[KoKo]

63. Your post about Joseph Wilson, John Dean and Joe Klein. Post # 20?

I've not trusted Joe Klein since he wrote his book "Primary Colors" about Clinton. I felt he added to the RW Stuff "hunting the President."

I got turned off to him as a source for anything but the RW, thinking he was a "mole" for them. Agree, his Time Mag article you refer to is interesting, but I somehow can't put him in the same category as the other two as a source I can trust. :shrug:

[H2O Man]

64. I see....

that certainly makes sense. I'm less interested in him, or even John dean, as individuals, than as having connections that allow them access to information that is of value to us. Information is power.

One of the interesting things about the bush family is that people that hold no appeal to the left, such as a Patrick Buchanan, can serve as resources of valuable information.

[Occulus]

69. I've often noticed that myself.

Every once in a while he spouts forth a stream of clean water amidst the sewage, and I'm surprised each time by the source. I ought to be used to that by now...

[TacticalPeek]

91. There was a brief stream like that from Frank Luntz (eww) on Hardball.

Tonight he talked about Edwards as a winning combination with Kerry. One thing was how Edwards avoids rich v poor rhetoric but hits the same target with working people vs corporations. He said that has significant reverb with concerns over jobs, outsourcing, fat cat crooks, etc. I despise Luntz, but that was a free tip from the guy who puffed Gingrich's Contract on America with enough PR slick to go down the public gullet.

Gather ye rosebuds . . .

[redstateblues]

160. Frank looked truly afraid

when he showed his realtime graph of Dem and Rs reacting to John Edwards. It was fun seeing the fear in his eyes.

[KoKo]

74. Tidbits are often revealing, I agree. But, if you look at Buchanan you

can alot of spin just to keep his "name in play." He spouts a populist line one day and the next he's a Buckly fan, and the next he's praising some other RW Repug that would give us shivers. Ego or something...

But, the tidbits may be good for "direction." When they have to put out a few bits of meat to the liberals then one knows something's going on, but then when they swing back in the next column, one is always wondering if it was about them, or there really might be a change in the wind.

That's what I meant...

[H2O Man]

79. Good... I like what you are saying....

Remember, Buchanan is a complex man. Other than being on tv, where he will serve as a "devil's advocate," and take any side of an issue for the sake of spirited debate ..... he's an honest man. I'm not saying I agree with even 10% of what he says. But he tries to be honest. He was likely one of several people made into a composite named "Deep Throat" during the Watergate era. And he is no fan of the bush clan ... in fact, he played an important role in defeating bush1 in 1992. His books are well worth reading, even if you disagree with 99% of what he believes.

Below here, I noted something I heard while watching Geraldine Ferraro talking to Hannity tonight: former NY senator Alfonse D'Amato was on a show advocating that the republicans drop cheney. He wants a bush-powell ticket. I think it's fair to say that old Al wouldn't be saying this in public, if he were not instructed to do so.

[Pallas180]

93. Dean's info might be the most unbiased & reliable-Disinformation abounds o

disinformation abounds otherwise.

I also find Klein unreliable - and I often wonder why his is switching
to this side or that side - I just don't find him unbiased as a journalist.

Buchanan could be the purveyor of the most disinformation IMHO

[BillZBubb]

25. Of course GJ secrecy never stopped the whores...

...from talking (speculating) about Clinton's "crimes". The media should be doing legwork just like the US attorney. This is the biggest national security story in decades. But, they report nothing, there is no sense of outrage. They aren't doing their job--or rather they are doing their job: covering for the Repugs.

[H2O Man]

30. Public consumption .....

The "general public" tends to prefer entertainment over education. There are interesting legal programs, such as "court tv." But many people prefer OJ, Scott Peterson, and the controversy over oral sex, to a serious issue like the Plame case.

The 9-11 hearings which were televised may have been imperfect, but they showed that there are large segments of the population that are very interested in the serious business, too.

I think that within a few weeks, we will see much more coverage of the Plame case.

[Beetwasher]

19. There's Nothing to Report On, Yet

and that's a good thing! It means Fitz it's keeping a tight lid on everything and being VERY professional about it, unlike another prosecutor by the name of Starr who leaked like a sieve, on purpose.

That there are no leaks coming out of this thing is VERY encouraging. It means that it's quite likely that the admin. has NO IDEA what is coming their way and will find it that much more difficult to influence the outcome or defend themselves when it hits...

[rman]

150. look at all the news about Michael Jackson when there's nothing to report

then look at all the news about the BCCI case against the Bank of England, and the genocide in East Timor.

that's your consent being manufactured.

[hansolsen]

87. Too busy looking for their balls

Don't expect much from most media Bigfoots for a while. They are tied up searching for their own balls which fell off and went missing in the lead-up to the war.

[kohodog]

22. Nominate this thread!

The first two are fantastic, but too old to be nominated to the DU Homepage. This is heady stuff, important for as many people to see as possible.

[BillZBubb]

27. Will the prosecutor hold off on indictments until after Nov?

At what point would he conclude that making any indictments public would effect the election? I can see him delaying for that and other reasons.

[Tellurian]

29. I would say, deals are being discussed as we type..

you do this and we'll give you this..plea bargains..

[H2O Man]

33. "Worse than Watergate" pgs 173-174

"The matter was referred to the Department of justice by the CIA, which meant that base on a preliminary examination of the law and facts by the attorneys at the CIA, there appeared to be a violation of federal law. The Justice Department investigation is ongoing, and slow going. After months of dillydallying, Ashcroft recused himself and had his deputy -- Jim Comey -- assign the case to the US attorney from Chicago, Patrick J. Fitzgerald. .....Comey said that he has delegated his authority ..... to Fitzgerald, but the Justice Department is unwilling to release the formal delegation of authority.

Unlike Watergate, which the Washington Post kept alive .... this story, after its initial splash, has largely disappeared. To some extent this is because news cycles move faster today than three decades ago. But the Bush-Cheney-Ashcroft team also pushed the story out of the thinking of Washington journalists by making certain they had nothing new to consider. At first blush, the appointment of Fitzgerald in late december 2003 suggested that any action would be delayed until after November 2004 -- that is, until after the election. But the sudden recusal of Ashcroft and the selection of Fitzgerald .... suggests that a cooperative witness may have surfaced over the Christmas holiday (a time when a White House staff member could quietly engage a criminal lawyer, who would immediately try to make a deal with the Justice Department)."

[Pallas180]

109. Ashcroft lied at the 911 comm but I dont remember if he was under oath-

interesting he recused himself in Plame for the very first time,,,
maybe he's getting a little scared himself that the house of cards
is falling and he also will be open to prosecution.

See the front page of DU and Henry Waxman's article.

[shraby]

31. He's a prosecutor who apparently has

been doing his job. I seriously doubt if he will let the election enter into his decision on when to announce indictments. If politics entered into it, he may not have done the job he has done so far.

[Disturbed]

38. Cheney/CIA

I believe Cheney was behind this. The goal was to nueter the CIA. The msg. to everyone was also, if you mess with us we will ruin you. The Office of Special Plans is the key to this. Of course hubris enters in, as well. "Power corupts... etc".

Maybe, pessimistic but the only situations that can bring down BushCo are White House Treason &/or Sytematic Prison Torture (Secret Prisoners and Prisons). This one is being strongly obstructed by the DOD and Congress.

In my view BushCo is the most criminal Admin. ever. Nixon Admin. pales in comparison.

[Political_Junkie]

42. Disturbed, I agree with you

about the comparison between the Nixon and Bush* administrations. Though I was too young to understand what was going on during the watergate scandal, I have since done some studying of the Nixon administration and though there are many comparisons to be made, these guys are much, much dirtier. And maybe they needed to be, after all, you would think that Watergate would have been a huge wake-up call to the American people causing them to pay more attention to what their politicians were up to. As soon as they were gone though, America went back to sleep. I pray that doesn't happen again.

[scarletwoman]

49. Keep in mind, there may well be a whole other layer of malfeasance here...

An EXTREMELY important point was brought up in the
first "Plame" thread

#15 by H2O Man:

...let's look closer at a couple of points of interest ..... a day or two ago, I posted some quotes from Joe Klein's "Plenty More to Swear About" in the July 5 TIME (pg 21). Klein, writing in a "mainstream" media, tells of CI and MI sources who privately inform him of the outrage these various and extremely powerful agencies feel towards this administration. For the first time that I am aware of, Klein informs the public that Plame "may have been active in a sting operation involving the trafficking of WMD components" when the White House revealed her identity. "Ony a very high-ranking official could have had access to the knowledge that Plame was on the payroll" of the CIA, an intel source told Klein.

Do NOT underestimate the significance of this. Exposing the CI operative went way --WAY -- beyond "getting back" at her husband.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Consider this: What if Plame, in the course of the undercover operation in which she was involved, was following a particular thread of illicit chemical/biological/NUCLEAR (remember the slap-on-the-wrist-Pakistani nuclear scientist?) weapons dealings -- say, perhaps the FINANCIAL end of things, i.e. money laundering through international banks -- and this line of investigation was starting to get uncomfortably close to the BFEE...

Something to ponder, methinks...

sw

[H2O Man]

52. Thank you, Scarletwoman!

I think it's important that certain points be brought up, over and over, even at risk of boring some of the participants in this discussion.

This week's TIME has articles comparing Moore's "F 9-11" with Stone's "JFK." Of course, back about 500 posts on this wonderful thread, that had been discussed! Those who watched Stone's classic movie will recall the scene where Kevin Costner meets the mysterious Man X in the park (played by Donald Sutherland).

Costner has been getting "bogged down" in his extensive investigation of the assassination. Sounds familiar, eh? But Man X lays something on him, something that cuts to the core of any investigation.

It's important to understand the "How?" ..... but it is vital to grasp the "Why?" And in these situations, the key to "why" is recognizing who stands to benefit from whatever crime you are investigating.

We can apply this simple, yet profound, rule to everything being discussed on this thread. It helps to eliminate some of the weaker theories. It also helps focus our group on the important things.

[scarletwoman]

57. Well, it's thanks to YOU, that this point was brought up originally!

It was a HUGE AHA! moment for me, when I read your post in the first thread. A whole bunch of pieces tumbled into place and suddenly I was seeing an entirely new dimension to this event.

It seems to me to be a VERY important point to keep in mind! "Who benefits?", indeed. (Precisely why I've been a "MIHOP"er from day one, btw)

sw

[H2O Man]

61. Yes.....

It is perhaps the "missing link" that is needed to understand the "why" in this case. When we examine people's cruel behaviors, there is always something else, something very ugly -- beyond that cruelty -- exposed. I supposed that only makes sense, considering when we examine people's kind behaviors, there is something good that comes to light.

I still think that everyone who finds value in this thread should be writing a brief letter-to-the-editor of their local paper(s), quoting Klein, and asking "why?"

[burrowowl]

60. Glad you gave link to first thread

The Mod should have posted links to both in topic for the newcomers.
The WMD and FINANCIAL are terribly important!
Has anybody e-mailed this thread to Kevin Phillips? Given his books on Wealth and Democracy and the BFE (he didn't include Evil)?

[H2O Man]

62. Kevin's "American Dynasty"

is one of the best books of the past 50 years. It should be required reading, along with Schlesinger's "The Imperial Presidency." A few people have noted that parts of American Dynasty is dry reading. I think it is fascinating.

I also agree that this series of three threads is of unique quality. I think that it should be part of the DU library .... it certainly could be part of a paper-back book (hint, hint .... are you listening, those who hold the reins of power?) for a fantastic DU fund- and consciousness-raiser.

[burrowowl]

75. Wealth and Democracy

shows how the Money goes and it is not to buying my Baby clothes...
Can be a bit dry but really worth it!

[H2O Man]

81. Thanks!

I will get it this week.

[calimary]

191. I agree, H2O Man. I think DU has the makings of a GREAT think tank.

This would be a superb library addition.

[Pallas180]

138. Scarletwoman's post: the finger would point at Halliburton & Bechtel

Bechtel builds nuke plants all over the world, if memory serves,
and Halliburton?

"Halliburton came under fire in the early '90s for supplying Libya and Iraq with oil drilling equipment which could be used to detonate nuclear weapons. Halliburton Logging Services, a former subsidiary, was charged with shipping six pulse neutron generators through Italy to Libya. In 1995, the company pled guilty to criminal charges that it violated the U.S. ban on exports to Libya. Halliburton was fined $1.2 million and will pay $2.61 million in civil penalties.

(ON EDIT - AND WHO ELSE DID CHENEY CEO OF HALLIBURTON SELL NUCLEAR EQUIPMENT TO AND WAS VALERIE PLAME GOING TO BLAB ?? )


Halliburton Energy Services
What was Vice President Cheney's involvement with Halliburton?

Cheney was tapped in 1995 to lead Halliburton as chairman and chief executive officer while the company was a second-tier firm within the oil and energy industries. As secretary of defense during the Persian Gulf War, Cheney made international contacts which Halliburton executives hoped would propel the company to the industry's fore. Under his leadership, the company did expand overseas, swelling its domestic portfolio into foreign markets. Cheney also led the aggressive acquisition of competitors, an offensive strategy which occurred during a period of falling oil prices. The largest merger was with Dresser Industries for $5.4 billion in 1998 – the same month in which layoffs cut nine percent of the work force.

(ON EDIT, DRESSER INDUSTRIES WAS OWNED BY HERBERT WALKER WHOSE DAUGHTER MARRIED PRESCOTT BUSH - THUS THE NAMES GEORGE HERBERT WALKER BUSH AND GEORGE WALKER BUSH - DRESSER WAS RENAMED HALLIBURTON)

During his chairmanship of Halliburton, Cheney criticized U.S. sanctions against "rogue" nations such as Iran and Libya in a 1998 speech. According to a July 26, 2000, Washington Post story, Cheney complained the sanctions "are nearly always motivated by domestic political pressure, the need for Congress to appeal to some domestic constituency."


http://www.halliburton.com/news/archive/2004/report.jsp

http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/fireass3.htm

[calimary]

190. Oh, MAN! Your speculation about "the FINANCIAL end of things" just

blew my eyebrows up, almost off the top of my forehead. I've had several muckraker friends, throughout my days on the air, who from time time told me the key is to "follow the money." That's what Deep Throat said during Watergate, too.

I think you're onto something. Money laundering through international banks. For heaven's sakes, money laundering is in bush senior's blood and bone marrow. International investment cartels. Tentacles of high-level connections everywhere. And I remember reading a comment somewhere in DU about how, if you start following those tentacles, into bank frauds and scams and money laundering and big-ticket manipulations, the name "bush" ALWAYS seems to be wrapped up in there somewhere. Hmmmm...

[scarletwoman]

205. Yup. Bush = Money Laundering 'R' Us.

Thanks for your response. I've noticed the same thing about those "bank frauds and scams and money laundering and big-ticket manipulations" and the Bush name, which is why that particular thought occurred to me.

The initial inspiration came from H2O Man's question in the first thread: "...the big question remains: Why did the White House expose her? What investigation did they need to derail?"

I was taught a long time ago that the key to finding truth is in asking the right QUESTION. That's why I want to keep this particular QUESTION in the forefront of peoples' attention.

sw

[Pallas180]

135. Disturbed - "Treason &/or Sytematic Prison Torture (Secret Conc. Camps"

yeah, we've got that going.

Now we just need a real House of Representatives to bring impeachment articles or a real Attorney General and Department of Justice to bring
criminal charges.

So many crimes, so few honest congresscritters.

[Ugnmoose]

40. I've heard tell that Rove does not like Cheney

He has always been loyal to The Chimp and much has been said that Rove dislikes Cheney&Co because of the mess they made of Iraq. One must wonder how it came to be that Rove would go so far out on a limb with information like this. More interestingly will be whether Rove ever discussed this with The Chimp prior to taking action. My bet is that he did and got approval to go with it. Or at a minimum acknowledged what Cheney was wanting him to do (no approval necessary, since Cheney calls the shots). In any event I think The Chimp gets implicated.

The real fun question is who in The White House "turned"? It sort of reminds me of Deep Throat in Watergate. Clearly, as previously noted by H20 Man, someone came forward and the evidence fell from there. I wonder if any of the named reporters had anything to do with it. This could have been done simply by not revealing their sources, but could have come from information they garnered indirectly.

[fedupwithbush]

43. I would love to see

Ms. Plame as CIA chief or a very close associate in Kerry/Edwards, haha!

Her identity has been blown, but boy! she could be a figure head for everything that was wrong with Bush & Co and their leadership of the CIA.

I can see heads exploding in the GOP just at the thought!

I've loved this thread. This subject has been something I've kept track of very closely. I know the CIA isn't squeaky clean in their leadership or everyday task, but you HAVE to have something like them. And you have to have people like Ms. Plame and her associates, or we might as well try to seal the borders and become a solitary nation. No country can do without a CIA type organization if they are going to play on the world stage.

[Disturbed]

46. More research

After doing some more reading it seems to me that Tenet bootlicked BushCo but it didn't do him any good because the CIA is being scapegoated as providing faulty intell to BushCo. I don't feel that Tenet resigned. I feel that he was fired in a hissy fit by Bush when asked to bend over some more for the BushCo mission but Tenet balked. The hope I have is that the rank and file will do something as payback. I believe that the CIA has documents and video of Cheney at the CIA that would blow the lid off of this cabal. Will something surface?

[Crachet2004]

162. I've read that time after time, Cheney PERSONALLY visited CIA...

to browbeat favorable analysis from the Agency-favorable to the cause of going to war with Iraq, that is.

Yeah, about the second or third time he pulled that crap, CIA no doubt captured it in living color with 3D sound.

Imagine the hubris of that idiot, Cheney, to personally do such a thing.

I hope it comes back to haunt him.

[KoKo]

45. Two articles ignored in today's hooplah, describe much about Bushies

spinning to fight back:'
----------------------------------------------------------------------
washingtonpost.com

]CIA's New Old Iraq File

By Jim Hoagland

Sunday, October 20, 2002; Page B07

Imagine that Saddam Hussein has been offering terrorist training and other lethal support to Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda for years. You can't imagine that? Sign up over there. You can be a Middle East analyst for the Central Intelligence Agency.

Or at least you could have been until recently. As President Bush's determination to overthrow the Iraqi dictator has become evident to all, a cultural change has come over the world's most expensive intelligence agency: Some analysts out at Langley are now willing to evaluate incriminating evidence against the Iraqis and call it just that.

That development has triggered a fierce internal agency struggle pitting officials whose careers and reputations were built on the old analysis of the Iraqis as a feckless, inert and inward-looking bunch of thugs against those willing to take a fresh, untilted look at all the evidence.

One breeze of change came in President Bush's Oct. 7 speech in Cincinnati. Among the terror-related items that were declassified for the speech was an agency finding that Iraq is developing "a growing fleet of manned and unmanned aerial vehicles" to deliver chemical and biological weapons on U.S. targets.

That was new stuff, delivered by a determined and effective CIA collection effort earlier this year. Agency information also allowed the president to assert (accurately) that "Iraq has trained al-Qaeda members in bomb-making and poisons and deadly gases."

That's actually old new stuff, stored in CIA files since the mid-1990s. But that intelligence was quietly buried during the Clinton years, when the need not to know very much about Iraq and terrorism was very strong.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A53578-2002Oct19?language=printer

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Iraq Official Heading Oil-For-Food Probe Killed

Sat Jul 3, 3:17 PM ET

By Khaled Yacoub Oweis

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - The Iraqi official heading the investigation into alleged corruption in the United Nations (news - web sites) oil-for-food program was killed in a bomb attack earlier this week, officials familiar with the probe said on Saturday.

Reuters...Ihsan Karim, head of the Board of Supreme Audit, died in hospital after a bomb placed under one of the cars in his convoy exploded in Baghdad on Thursday, the officials said.

Iraq (news - web sites)'s former U.S. Governor Paul Bremer gave the board independence from the executive branch of government and appointed Karim as its head in April.

The board appointed international accountants Ernst and Young in May to investigate commissions Iraqi and foreign companies paid to former President Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) and his government for securing billions of dollars worth of contracts under the 1996-2003 oil-for-food program.

The investigation undermined a separate KPMG probe initiated by the now dissolved Iraqi Governing Council, and led to tension with former financier Ahmad Chalabi, who holds documents alleging that some international suppliers paid at least 10 percent of the value of contracts to Saddam.

KPMG has stopped working on its investigation and did not issue a report due in June about the alleged fraud. This is because a bill of several hundred thousand dollars of work has not yet been paid, people familiar with the contact said.

Zaab Sethna, a spokesman for Chalabi, said the audit board was poorly equipped to handle the investigation.

"The assassination of Mr Karim is very worrying. Bremer appointed the audit board and left them on their own," Sethna told Reuters.

"The investigation was the highest profile probe the board was handling. It is impossible to speculate who killed Mr Karim, but the oil-for-food corruption involved very powerful people inside and outside Iraq," he added.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=564&u=/nm/20040703/ts_nm/iraq_oil_scandal_dc&printer=1

[TacticalPeek]

68. "Work-up" on Wilson

IIRC, in appearances around his book publication and in the book, Wilson said that Cheney's office decided at a meeting in March, 2003, to do a 'work-up', presumably like a background investigation, on Wilson. The presumed motivation was to enable them to slime Wilson, since he could discredit their nuclear scam. March, 2003 was also when the IAEA pissed on the forged 'Niger' doucments, and thereby made one of their justifications an international joke. They would have perceived a need to shore up their 'defense' against Wllson, who I believe had already been nagging somebody in the admin about Niger not being involved in African uranium sales to Iraq.

If this 'work-up' is what led to the discovery of Plame's CIA job, who was doing the investigating? "Cheney's office" decided to do it, but who did the work? Government employees? FBI/CIA/OSP etc.? Private contractors? Staffers on their personal time, or Uncle Sugar's dime? Resources used? Any wigs required (for Watergate fans)? Tricky Dick got it caught in the wringer bigtime when he used the CIA/IRS etc. for vendetta work. Does Wilson, his book say who 'worked-up' on him? Even staffers would run afoul of what John Dean has written about as the "faithful service" of federal employees thing, fraud, etc., wouldn't they?

-----------------------


Fake Iraq documents 'embarrassing' for U.S.

From David Ensor
CNN Washington Bureau
Friday, March 14, 2003 Posted: 10:43 PM EST (0343 GMT)

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Intelligence documents that U.S. and British governments said were strong evidence that Iraq was developing nuclear weapons have been dismissed as forgeries by U.N. weapons inspectors.


snip

"I'm sure the FBI and CIA must be mortified by this because it is extremely embarrassing to them," former CIA official Ray Close said.

snip

Close said the CIA should have known better.

"They have tremendously sophisticated and experienced people in their technical services division, who wouldn't allow a forgery like this to get by," Close said. "I mean it's just mystifying to me. I can't understand it."


snip

If a mistake was made, a U.S. official suggested, it was more likely due to incompetence not malice.

"That's a convenient explanation, but it doesn't satisfy me," Close said. "Incompetence I have not seen in those agencies. I've seen plenty of malice, but I've never seen incompetence."

snip

more
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/03/14/sprj.irq.documents




Posted 4/29/2004 8:39 PM Updated 4/29/2004 9:53 PM

Cheney staff accused of role in CIA leak
By Mark Memmott, USA TODAY

WASHINGTON - Vice President Cheney was aware of a meeting held by his staff that started a chain of events that ended with the "effective betrayal of our country," former U.S. diplomat Joseph Wilson charged Thursday in an interview with USA TODAY.

snip

Wilson connects Cheney to the events involving his wife through a meeting he said occurred in March 2003. He charged that Cheney's staff - with at least the "implicit" involvement of the vice president - met and decided to investigate his background. The investigation, he said, uncovered his wife's role at the CIA.

"The office of the vice president, either the vice president himself or more likely his chief of staff, chaired a meeting at which a decision was made to do a 'work-up' on me," Wilson wrote in The Politics of Truth.

Vanity Fair magazine reported in January that Cheney's office denied that any such meeting occurred.

The "work-up," Wilson said in the interview, was begun in an effort to "besmirch me" because the administration knew he could challenge a justification for the war in Iraq - that Saddam Hussein had tried to acquire fuel for a nuclear weapon from the African nation of Niger


more
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2004-04-29-cheney-cia-leak_x.htm

[tableturner]

70. H2O, is it reasonable to believe......

....that Bush, et al, do not know what you know? Could that be possible?

[H2O Man]

76. I'm not sure how to answer that.

I'll just say that if someone were to spend time sitting on a park bench, even just listening to the radio, they'd likely have heard AlD'Amato, the rabid right-wing senator from NY, advocating that the republican party drop cheney from the ticket. If you were sitting next to Man X on that park bench, he would ask "why" would Al D'Amato be advocating THAT .... unless there was an open secret being told in the halls of power in this country? D'Amato was saying run Bush-Powell. Why? Do you understand the implications of THAT???

[Disturbed]

78. What Wilson and his wife know.

Is it not logical that they know a Hell of a lot more than they have stated publicly? V. Plame knows why she was outed. In my view she also knows that she cannot publicly state all the reasons and neither can her husband. This case is more important in my view than the hoopla over the J. Kerry VP choice or almost anything else going on. This case gets to the heart of the Right Wing stranglehold along with the Corps. that back them. I am going to keep reading and stoking this fire.

[H2O Man]

84. Plame knows something

that would remove every White House official from public office for the rest of their lives. The White House needed to derail her efforts to get some specific information. It would be safe to say that intel ops from foreign countries who were involved in this investigation are no longer available.

Wilson is one of the most honorable people in public service in the past few decades. He has boundries, meaning he recognizes that his wife's job is not discussed over dinner. Nevertheless, you are absolutely correct in thinking that Wilson knows fasr, far more than he can say in public.

I'm a democrat. They are from republican backgrounds. But believe me when I say that they are true patriots. It's important that we remain true to our democratic values .... and still keep an open mind about some of the good and decent people who are republicans. They'll learn eventually. (grin)

[Disturbed]

92. Republicans

I do not paint all Republicans the same. I realize that there are a few honorable Republicans. I also realize that there is something going on behind the public that I am not aware of and may never know.
I don't believe in a unified cabal that rules behind the scene but there are powerful factions of people with power and immense wealth that control certain aspects of governing. As far as my limited knowlege is it seems that the CIA does not specificly work for any Pres. or Govt. until perhaps, recently. The CIA mission is not to spread freedom or so-called democracy but to keep intact and spread Capitalism and distabalize any counter to it. Most Americans don't know the difference between the two concepts of Democracy and Capitalism. In my view Capitalism is more important to Repubs. and Dems than the notion of Democracy. I truely believe that America is a Plutocracy, not a Democracy.

This case if followed to it's logical course could blow out many notions and bring down the Govt. I don't feel that it will. I suspect it will indicte two goons, Libby and Abrams. The rest would be to disastorous.

[shraby]

101. I can see by the earlier threads that

time is a very important element in all of this. Not only Plame, but torture and the Iran leak. Has anyone put together a time line on these misadventures? It might show up a lot that isn't apparent without it.

[TacticalPeek]

106. Part of it is: the more bushco did over time, the worse it got.

Another part of the parallel shadows is that when you move to strike (strike, strike, strike . . . ), you want it close enough to the election to leave less time, less chance for recovery. War vs. a battle.

You use what's at hand, as well as what's in your kit. And the other guy always gets a vote on outcomes and progress.

The crimes in (current) office timeline starts Jan 2001, "post-Saddam" NSC memo at least, and the counters probably pick up then, too. Followed by escalation, big-time.

[starroute]

134. One crucial point was when momentum switched from Dean to Kerry

That happened last winter at exactly the moment when Bush first started getting into trouble over the collapse of the WMD claims. I'm convinced it was right then that the power brokers made up their minds Bush had to go and therefore proceeded to resurrect Kerry's campaign.

What I'm not sure of is whether they threw their weight behind Kerry because he seemed more electable or because he seemed more likely to be no threat to the Establishment. Perhaps both are true.

[kohodog]

104. Who'd ever thunk it...CIA the good guys?

Part of this that unsettles me is my longtime (since the 60's) distrust of CIA, DIA and all the spooks. They don't have a great track record here or abroad. It feels weird to be rooting for them to bust the Bush admin. If Bush is taken down, who's willing to say that CIA isn't pulling thers strings>?

[tableturner]

96. I've noticed something in how the Bush crew looks nowadays....

Maybe I am seeing things, but just the last few weeks, when I look at Laura especially, I see a glimmer of fateful sadness, like they know that hell is coming toward them. I think they know that some of the top people in the administration have been caught doing something that not only should end the administration, but that also risks having some of the top people facing jail (maybe THE top person), and which would bring the greatest possible dishonor to the group as a whole.

I think they know they screwed up royally. The irony lies in the immortal words contained in Bush 1's statement about outing a covert agent. How can they wiggle out of what Bush 1 said was the worst type of treachery? How can they minimize it? They can't.

I think that Cheney's f-word usage is symptomatic of a panicked person who knows he is screwed.

I'm waitin on their "defense". I just cannot fathom a workable defense, either in the judicial courts or the court of public opinion, that can bring acceptance of these acts. This upcoming so-called "defense" should be a royal riot.

[xocolatl]

98. *'s "defense"

:tinfoilhat:

Nothing is more dangerous than a cornered animal. Their "defense" may involve another job by their favorite Saudi contractors....

[Ugnmoose]

97. I believe indictments will be far ranging

and broader in scope than many would imagine. I truly believe that Fitzgerald being the excellent prosecutor that he is has stumbled across the real depth of the crime, that being the underlying intent of Bushco to derail an established CIA Global Counter Intelligence Operation that was getting too close to some very damaging information. I believe that George Tenet has spilled the beans on this in return for immunity from perjury prosecution and it was also the reason for his resignation. Remember that Tenet was a Clinton appointee and I never felt like he has true loyalty to Bushco, but was just act like the good soldier. I think the outing of Plame was the straw that broke the camel's back. One thing is for sure we have not seen the last of Mr. Tenet.

[Pallas180]

143. If what UGNMOOSE thinks is true, we may never know and it

may never be exposed or brought to court because if it was, CIA
REAL classified secrets about other agents and counter-intelligence
operations would be exposed. We could never hear Tenet's testimony if it is him who has spilled the beans because if we did, the world would know what the CIA knows about nuclear "things" and placements.

Conundrum.

And I doubt these scummy WH people would agree to resign.

Then it would mean the criminals would walk instead of going to jail or - - - -

Gee. Does anyone remember Margaret Mitchell, AG Attorney Mitchell's wife during Watergate calling all the reporters she liked and telling
them what a crook Nixon was? She died in a plane crash before the end of Watergate.

[Ugnmoose]

164. Remember the Nixon tapes?

Nixon claimed Executive Privledge but the SCOTUS ruled he had to turn it over to The Special Prosecutor. I don't think anything Tenet would offer could be held out for reasons of national intelligence, especially if it were being presented in closed hearings.

There are two other issues at stake here. One is the legal one and the other is The Court of Public Opinion. I think we have pretty well hashed out the legal ramifications if Bushco get implicated. If the boys are implicated, even if it is on a lesser charge like accessory, it will be a devastating blow to a campaign that is already floundering. This could well push it over the edge. Even some hardcore Repukes would be hard-pressed to defend it. If this thing plays out anything like what has been posted in these threads I think we can shut the lights out. The party is over.

[TacticalPeek]

165. She did not die in a plane crash. That was E. Howard Hunt's wife, Dorothy.

8 Dec 1972 E. Howard Hunt's wife, Dorothy Hunt killed in the United Airlines airplane crash of Flight 533. Veronica Kuculich, her daughter Theresa, and 43 passengers die when the plan destroys the Kuculich residence at 3722 70th Place in Chicago. Eighteen passengers survive. Dorothy Hunt's purse suspiciously contains $10,585 cash. The NTSB, FBI , and Congress investigate for sabotage but find nothing, blaming the crash on the flight crew's failure to activate wing spoilers.

http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/usa/e-howard-hunt



Martha was something else. It got to the point that John Mitchell's thugs held her down to shoot her up with tranquilizers.

John Mitchell was sent to federal prison. Hahaha!

Martha was diagnosed with multiple myeloma and died in 1975 at age 57.

http://www.atrol.com/martha

[Pallas180]

172. Thanks Tactical. Didn't he committ her or something?

I remember she died early and thought it was she on the plane....she
was trying to tell all she knew and they smeared her as mentally unbalanced and a drinker -- that's the impression that I remember anyway.

She did the country a great favor, adding to the knowledge that there
DEFINITELY was wrongdoing, even though she meant to protect her husband Mitchell . He went to jail, Nixon didn't.

57 was pretty young to die.

[calimary]

196. Do you suppose that Tenet is the "high level official" who turned?

Hmmmm... His colleague who resigned just after he did was Plame's boss.

[kohodog]

99. H20man for president!

Your insight is great and has held this thread together. Being new here it is definitely the most interesting thread I've come across...anywhere!

If you're not interested in pres, I'm sure we'll find something for you after the revolution!

[H2O Man]

107. hah-ha-ha-ha!!!

This is a wonderful thread, and it is maintaining a strength that is encouraging. I'm serious when I say the powers-that-be on DU should consider using this and similar threads as a book for fund-raising. (If your are interested, leaders, contact me. I am between books now, and would be willing to donate some time on it.)

President? Wow! I'm retired now.(smile) I'm happy to sit on the park bench, and talk to passers-by about the weather. It's good to know which way the wind blows.

[shraby]

112. H20

what books have you done? :evilgrin: Some titles please?

[Occulus]

119. *blink*

Oh, ok. :)

[Pallas180]

141. What Plame may know more about - go to post 138

Cheney Halliburton known to have sold nuclear goods to Quaddaffi/Libya ....and

to who else ? ? ? ? ? ?

[RainDog]

157. H2O- you never commented (that I saw)

about the possible link to Jonathan Bush/Riggs Bank (as far as a way to move money covertly for arms and drug sales to fund more arms sales and pay off people and, surely, just to make a lot of money.

What I wonder about all this is the role of Chalabi, and what he might have to do with illegal arms sales to say, Iran. This is total speculation on my part, but Chalabi had a forgery ring, was feeding false WMD intel to both Miller and the willing ears of the OSP, and was also, apparently, feeding info to Iran.

Maybe Iran wanted the US to invade Iraq, fight the war for them, and make their old enemy useless...and also vulnerable to a Shi'a style theocracy.

This goal worked well for the Likudiks who were getting advice from Israeli Generals because Israel also wanted to get rid of Saddam and destabilize and neuter Iraq/Hussein.

The Israeli presence now among the Kurds is their stake in the possible civil war/balkanization of Iraq.

Iran is in the Shi'a dominated region...

and our troops are sitting ducks.

The greed of the corporatists blinded them to the ways in which they were played by Iran, maybe.

As far as what Plame knows...who was selling weapons to whom, and to do what?

That's another why, beyond the greed factor.

[Pallas180]

124. D'Amato has been out of it for awhile. Senile? Bush would never

run with Powell who he dislikes. Powell's not one of the boyz.

I can see that someone would think the integrity that America formerly thought Powell had might save or improve the ticket....but
is it just DU'ers knowledge or does all of America know that Powell
has prostituted himself at the UN, and State Department (for the Bush admin and his son's position in the FCC) and lost large chunks of
admiration?

[mdmc]

100. What is the Plame indictments

I was away last week. Whats going on? :hi:

[shraby]

103. Click your way back to

the first thread on this and it will fill you in nicely.

[shraby]

111. Don't forget that Pavitt also quit.

Another resignation that makes no sense to me is Ted Olsen. He said it was to "refill his coffers" but his are probably pretty full since his wife was in one of the planes on 9/11.

[Tellurian]

116. shraby, how long did it take for Olson to remarry?

was it 10 min?

theres a story there too..

Taking from memory..if I recall correctly..

Olson's wife changed planes at the last minute..

was she told to change planes?

Or did she do it of her own volition?

[shraby]

137. I haven't followed Olson

just remember he was on Larry King right after 9/11 and I was surprised he wasn't teary in the least and felt that odd. Then I saw that he was pleading the "detainee" Padilla's case to the Supremes and then quit right after the ruling. Felt that odd too.

[H2O Man]

117. There is serious discussions

about the possibility of Richard Armitage getting out before this fall. That would be a serious blow to the administration.

There are plenty of republicans who resent the administration. But their party is almost mason-like, in that they continue to vote for people who are anti-everything they believe in. How can a fiscal conservative support bush? If you are pro-life, how can you support the death-force? I wish more like Armitage would walk away, sending a clear clue to republican voters with an IQ higher than 20.

[mdmc]

121. whats goin on?

A brief summary please.

[TacticalPeek]

122. Perhaps the ones with a little honor left should be given quarter.

But the rest I say, push into the arms and on to the coattails of aWol. They've been on his leash all along, and wherever D and R battle for the voters' trust, the R should be pushed to embrace, distance or (eventually) oppose the worst president ever.

"What did the president know, and when did he know it?" - Senator Howard Baker (R-TN)

It's getting to be come to Jesus time.

[lancdem]

168. What do you see as the significance of Bush being interviewed

for 70 minutes by Mr. Fitzgerald? I'd love to get your take on it.

[Eloriel]

133. Me too. What I want to know is does Olson have ANY place

in the whole scheme of things being discussed -- I especially want to know this because of what was mentioned upthread about members of the Executive Branch not having to testify against the Executive.

He was, after all, Solicitor General.

Anyone have any ideas? Perhaps he has no role whatsoever -- I'd want to know that too. IMO (gut feeling), there's more to his resignation as well. Does he fit in here ANYwhere?

[shraby]

140. Here is where he fits in

as far as I can discern. He was instrumental in getting Bush selected by the Supremes. His wife was killed on 9/11 and on the Larry King show the impression was that it was a love beyond any one else's but didn't seem overly upset about it. He quit right after the Supremes ruled that Bush isn't king.
Otherwise he has been under the radar as far as I know. Is there a connection between the ruling that Bush isn't king and something else that's been going on that he has been involved in?

[Pallas180]

145. Olson - this is my guess. He announced resignation after dimson saw a crim

saw an outside criminal attorney.

If Olson was part of the government he couldn't represent/defend Dimson against the government.

I suspect he quit so that he can represent Dimson.

What leads me to think that is that Olson and Baker III represented
Dimson before the Supremes in the selection of 2000.

Either that or all the rats are leaving a sinking ship - which is what I though when both Carville's wife and Hughes left about the time
it was clear there were no WMD in Iraq.

[shraby]

147. What's Baker doing right now?

Anyone got any idea?

[Pallas180]

153. he's representing Saudi Arabia against the 9/11 widows - isn't

that a riot? The pResident's personal lawyer and the former Secretary of State of the United States is defending Saudi Arabia in
a three trillion dollar suit brought by the 9/11 widows and widowers
against Saudi Arabia for providing the funds for the 15 Saudi hijackers.

He's also counsel to Carlyle.

He's also representing the United States government in asking the various countries to forgive Iraq's debt to them, so that more money
can go to Halliburton, Bechtel and the "re-construction team".

google Baker Botts Lawfirm or just James Baker III.

[ewagner]

130. Haven't posted since early

in thread one..........but I have read all the other threads and I am amazed at where this discussion has gone.

I agree, this is one of the best threads on any subject, ever!

I would have very easily dismissed most of this discussion excpet for the facts that keep dribbling out in bits and pieces that seem to point exactly in the direction described earlier.

Josh Marshall hinted it.........though I didn't totally follow where he was going.

Joe Klein (no, I don't trust him either), targeted the conclusions more specifically.

Dean, called it from the legal perspective.

I am taking H20's advice and asking: WHY? Unfortunately one would have to know a lot more about exactly what Valerie Plame was working on to truly understand WHY it was necessary to out her when they did. Unfortunately, that sort of thing may rightly fall under the heading of National Security which will probablt make indictments rather messy.

What do you think?

[Pallas180]

154. I think you're exactly right. Same conclusion I came to in post

138 I think. Can't publicly prosecute without revealing CIA
covert operations and agents and placements of nuclear or WMD
materials and/or whatever she knows - which would be classified
- big time classified.

So do they walk?

Are they threatened with exposure unless they resign?

And I dont think they would. These are bold brazen greedy craven
fascists.

[ewagner]

161. Good questions

You're absolutely right that they will never resign. Arrogant. Brazen. Ruthless. Yes, those are good words to describe them.

My hope is that Fitzgerald will find something to charge them with that is below the level that will require compromise of national security....for instance, if he convicts them for JAYWALKING instead of treason, that's still okay with me as long as there is a conviction.

True enough, justice won't be served completely, but at this point ANY conviction of these ruthless clowns is acceptable.

[faithnotgreed]

136. inspired by h20 heres what i wrote to ny times, wash post.

plus i wrote a brief email to cnn. for what its worth here is the text of the letter sent to the newspapers. this is what i came up with but there are far better writers than i and those who have a much better grasp of the complexities. but i hope someone else will give a better example and get the word out as indicated by h20.

email title was "joe klein, valerie plame" (hoping to get their attention!)

or perhaps i should title this "something, anything, please"

hello in an attempt to ask someone else in the respected national media to uncover what is going on with this administration in regards to valerie plame, grand jury investigation etc, i respectfully submit this email.

there is an alarming lack of oversight of this administration, and while that may be charged to our representatives, it is clearly imperative that as a voice of the people, the national media investigate and report what in blazes is being perpetrated in our countrys name. i realize there are so many fronts to tackle with our current administration, but valerie plame and sibel edmonds are important places to start, if i may say so.
at this point i would even like a front page piece on black box voting and that threat to our democracy. again, there are so many issues, so little time...

thankfully joe klein has just recently written an article for time magazine of which im sure youre aware. please please help us out here in this wilderness who feel that little is asked or revealed of this administration, at least nothing that gets to the hard truths. and there are many which need revealing.

that is precisely how it feels. and i ask someone such as paul krugman (robin wright) to please pick up where joe klein has just taken us.

we need you desperately (and i do not believe i am overstating things by using that word). there is a grand jury investigation, and at the very least this should be reported upon so that we know there will be serious investigation into the depths of constitutional hell that we currently face.

thank you sincerely for your time and attention. you are needed and i call upon you to please do this for our countrys sake. i thank you for being among the very few that even write seriously about what may be going on.
surely with your access and resources, you must know that there is something going on that is very very corrupt.... im simply asking that you reveal it for the whole world to see. that is right where it belongs.

thank you sincerely

[shraby]

148. Good letter faithnotgreed

Wish I could write that good.

[faithnotgreed]

151. thank you so much. i had to write something and its so sad how much

there is to cover. its hard to know where to start or where to stop. you want to scream it but you know you cant if you want to be taken halfway seriously.

i want to thank you also for your important thread and vital ideas. i have learned a great deal and while i do not know the complexities of this spiderweb, i did want to do something.

[shraby]

155. An investigative reporter would do well to

read this thread from start to finish. He may have enough contacts to get the story of the century.

[faithnotgreed]

185. "the story of the century" indeed! wheres bob woodward?

[Pallas180]

220. Joe Conason of The Obserber would be a good one to send it to.

n/t

[Pallas180]

152. How the US Marines were used by Corporations in the 20th Century

In 70 years nothing has changed. Guess what? We have always been warmongering colonialists. It's just that we the American people didn't know it and apparently all of us here on DU still don't. How naive we are.

US Marine Corps Major-General Butler
is a man who won America's highest military award for bravery (the Congressional Medal of Honor) twice. His style of warfare was unusual not only for his personal courage, but for the energy he put into avoiding bloodshed when it was possible to achieve his aims in other ways. Not surprisingly, this engendered a remarkable loyalty among the men who served under him - and that loyalty was why certain men (in 1934)asked Butler to lead a military attack of 500,000 men on Washington DC, with the goal of capturing President Roosevelt (to which he replied he would gather 500,000 men to fight them)

but he is most famous for revealing, in his book, " War Is A Racket" how the United States Marines were used by the Corporations:

I helped make Mexico and especially

Tampico safe for American oil interests

in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba

a decent place for the National City

Bank boys to collect revenues in. I

helped in the raping of half-a-dozen

Central American republics for the benefit

of Wall Street. The record of racketeering

is long. I helped purify

Nicaragua for the international banking

house of Brown Brothers in 1909-12. I

brought light to the Dominican Republic

for American sugar interests in 1916.

I helped make Honduras `right' for

American fruit companies in 1903. In

China in 1927 I helped see to it that

Standard Oil went its way unmolested

... Looking back on it, I felt I might

have given Al Capone a few hints. The

best he could do was to operate this

racket in three city districts. We

Marines operated on three continents.

In his book War Is A Racket, Butler argued for a powerful navy, but one prohibited from travelling more than 200 miles from the US coastline. Military aircraft could travel no more than 500 miles from the US coast and the army would be prohibited from leaving the United States altogether. Butler also proposed that all workers in defence industries, from the lowest labourer to the highest executive, be limited to `thirty dollars a month, the same wage as the lads in the trenches get'. He also proposed that a declaration of war should be passed by a plebiscite in which only those subject to conscription would be eligible to vote.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1373/is_n11_v45/ai_17471772

[Disturbed]

156. Thanks for posting that.

I knew this before but some here perhaps did not.

What we are discussing here though is a specific topic of the Plame Case. If Congress was doing their job this case would be of great interest to them and they would also investigate this. The Republicans and many Democrats would rather see this case vanish.

[starroute]

167. Here's more background on that Smedley Butler quote

I was curious about the incidents he describes, so I went Googling a couple of weeks ago and found a good piece at Socialist Workers Online. (It seems like it's only the remnants of the old left who still remember or care about the early days of US imperialism.)

http://www.socialistworker.org/2003-2/466/466_08_ForgingEmpire.shtml

"In the Dominican Republic, where conditions imposed on the impoverished sugar-producing island were intolerable, rebellions arose to kick out the Yankees and their Dominican collaborators. In 1905, President Theodore Roosevelt sent in the Marines to take over the custom houses, where tariffs and duties from trade were collected and stored.

<snip>

"In 1911, when the Dominican president was shot for his collusion with the U.S. and a provisional president was elected, President Howard Taft sent a couple of commissioners to check on the situation--along with 750 Marines who politely suggested, no doubt, that the new government step down. It did, and the U.S. placed its own man in charge and kept Marines on the island for decades.

"In 1912, Marines put down a revolution in Nicaragua. When Brown Brothers imposed a new loan, they wrote into the agreement that the railroads, customs houses and the central bank would be in the hands of the New York bank."

And so on.


Brown Brothers would merge in 1931 with W.A. Harriman, the firm of which Averell Harriman was chairman and Prescott Bush a director, to become Brown Brothers Harriman. And Allen Dulles would work for United Fruit in the 1920's -- the CIA overthrow of Arbenz in Guatemala in 1954, just after Dulles became director, was a result of that connection.

Almost everything discussed in these threads has its roots in the period between the Spanish-American War of 1898, when the US first became an imperialist power, and the late 20's. The politics of oil fits in here too -- by 1916, General Asphalt was obtaining oil concessions in Venezuela. Even though the US wouldn't become entangled in Middle Eastern oil politics until the 1930's (and more so after World War II), the pattern of intervention had been set in these Latin American adventures.

[Pallas180]

173. STAR - EXCELLENT info even if disgusting. Thanks. US Imperialism

We had and have our own natural resources but apparently have been grabbing other countries' resources for the past 100 years. We're pigs.

"Almost everything discussed in these threads has its roots in the period between the Spanish-American War of 1898, when the US first became an imperialist power, and the late 20's. The politics of oil fits in here too -- by 1916, General Asphalt was obtaining oil concessions in Venezuela. Even though the US wouldn't become entangled in Middle Eastern oil politics until the 1930's (and more so after World War II), the pattern of intervention had been set in these Latin American adventures."

[starroute]

178. Domestic oil reserves have been a source of corruption as well

These days, with US oil sources running out, the impulse towards foreign adventurism is getting stronger and stronger. But oil has always been a source of corruption and power grabs in US politics.

Standard Oil was the Microsoft of its day -- but probably even more powerful and more feared -- until it was broken up by the new anti-trust laws in 1911.

The Teapot Dome scandal during the Harding administration was about the leasing of oil reserves on federal lands to private interests.

Strom Thurmond's campaign for the presidency on the States Rights ticket in 1948 was prompted more by the desire of wealthy oil men to prevent Truman from putting offshore oil under federal control than it was by a concern for maintaining segregation. (When Eisenhower was elected in 1952, he signed the offshore oil over to the states.)

And, of course, the issue of oil -- who had it, or had access to it, and who didn't -- was one of the primary causes of World War II.

As H2O Man implied somewhere in these threads, to know the history of oil in the 20th century is to know about 90% of the entire story. (The other 10% is presumably bananas. ;-) )


On edit: And of course there has to be a Bush connection:

"Bush and the Liedtke brothers now concluded that the epoch in which large oil fields could be discovered within the continental United States was now over. Mammoth new oil fields, they believed, could only be found offshore, located under hundreds of feet of water on the continental shelves, or in shallow seas like the Gulf of Mexico and the Caribbean. By a happy coincidence, in 1954 the US federal government was just beginning to auction the mineral rights for these offshore areas. With father Prescott Bush directing his potent Brown Brothers, Harriman/Skull and Bones network from the US Senate while regularly hob-nobbing with President Eisenhower on the golf links, George Bush could be confident of receiving special privileged treatment when it came to these mineral rights. Bush and his partners therefore judged the moment ripe for launching a for-hire drilling company, Zapata Offshore . . .

<snip>

"1954 was also the year that the US overthrew the government of Jacopo Arbenz in Guatemala. This was the beginning of a dense flurry of US covert operations in central America and the Caribbean, featuring especially Cuba.

<snip>

"During 1956, the Zapata Petroleum officers included J. Hugh Liedtke as president, George H.W. Bush as vice president, and William Brumley of Midland, Texas as treasurer. . . . Counsel were listed as Baker, Botts, Andrews & Shepherd of Houston, Texas; auditors were Arthur Andersen in Houston, and transfer agents were J.P. Morgan & Co., Inc., of New York City and the First National Bank and Trust Company of Tulsa."

http://www.the7thfire.com/bush8.htm

[coeur_de_lion]

163. How are they getting away with this?

Please forgive my political naivete, but I would really love to know -- where is OUR Ken Starr? How is it that the * administration has gotten so far out of hand? We spent 70 million dollars investigating Clinton -- for cheating on his wife. Now * is lying left and right, and getting people killed. It seems to me as if the Democrats are just letting him get away with it. If I weren't reading DU I would not know about any of this.

Look at this excerpt from the following article:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=694&e=4&u=/ap/20040705/ap_on_el_pr/bush

"Two Bush opponents, taken out of the crowd in restraints by police, said they were told they couldn't be there because they were wearing shirts that said they opposed the president."

How is * getting away with this? They were restrained and taken away because they wore T-shirts that indicated they disagreed with *? (That happens all the time here in FL, by the way)

It is so outrageous, and here we sit, calmly discussing the possibility that * & Co. will finally be brought down by the Plame investigation. Seems to me that he should have been brought down a long time ago, for far worse things than outing a covert CIA agent.

Maybe one of the wise, politically savvy posters in this thread can explain to me, how have things gotten this far out of control? How is it that we don't have a Ken Starr on our side, exposing the * lies and manipulation?

There is probably a glaringly obvious answer to this question, but I would love to hear it from people who I trust -- the members of DU.

[AVID]

166. Repubican Senate, Republican House

Republican SCOTUS, and the */Cheney machine

[coeur_de_lion]

170. There has to more to it than that.

I know some Democrats have been shouting for * & Co. to explain their actions, but not loudly enough, or nearly often enough, to suit me. His crimes make Bill Clinton look like the Pope by comparison.

Republican political/legislative domination should not have anything to do with letting * get away with murder, literally.

[coeur_de_lion]

171. this is what I'm talking about

Once in awhile one of the Democrats ask for some congressional oversight for * but it is not very often, and not anywhere near as strongly worded as I would like to see.

from Henry Waxman . . .
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A29810-2004Jul5.html

Why has there not been much more than this, from other Democrats?

Why are the Democrats just letting the Repugs roll over on them?

Surely there must be more that they can do. They should be screaming from the rooftops. Why aren't they?

[shraby]

174. The Dems have been trying to

fight them legally and upfront. They have to change their tactics since they are outnumbered and outgunned.

[coeur_de_lion]

176. Why don't more of them do what Waxman did?

I guess I'm thinking about the F-911 scene where not one senator stood up for Gore.

It seems to me like the Democrats are a passive lot. If I were a member of Congress, and the POTUS did what * did, I would be screaming for his impeachment. And I would not stop screaming until something was done. We can write all the letters to editors that we want, but it will take the democrats we voted for to actually do what needs to be done.

They should be outraged. They should be fighting tooth and nail. Why aren't they?

Are they just hoping that Kerry wins in Nov. and that is all they care about? I mean, I know I'm new to politics, but it seems to me like * has gotten away with stuff partly because the Democrats LET HIM.

[Pallas180]

175. THIS IS WHAT WE HAVE TO & CAN DO: from yr link above

TAKING THE BEST paragraphs from the Waxman link below & e mail to Olberman & Dobbs, the only ones on CNN and MSNBC who would broadcast Waxman's stuff.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A29810-20...

E mail or write something like this to the editor's page of Washington Post, NY Times, LA Times, your local newspaper, DAily News, Salon, You have a favorite site? send it

Dear Sir:

Republican leaders in Congress have refused to investigate who treasonously exposed covert CIA agent Valerie Plame in this administration, whose identity was leaked after her husband, Joe Wilson, challenged the administration's claims that Iraq sought nuclear weapons.

The Republican Chairmen of all committees have held virtually no public hearings on the hundreds of misleading claims made by administration officials about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction and ties to al Qaeda.

During the Clinton administration, Congress spent over $70 millions of tax dollars probing alleged White House wrongdoing. There was no accusation too minor to explore, no demand on the administration too intrusive to make.

It is the responsibility of the Fourth estate, the media, to expose the failure of Congress to investigate these "misleading claims" and treasonous action by someone in the governemtn, and to keep this government "honest"through exposure when it won't act responsibly, as the Fourth Estate did thirty years ago during the Nixon abberation.

WHY are you not fulfilling your role to the American people and this country and WHEN will you start ?

[coeur_de_lion]

177. Now THAT is more like it!! Woo-hoo! BLESS you, Pallas!

That is one kickass editorial. I'm gonna use it. You're the greatest!

Thanks!
:bounce:

[Pallas180]

179. kick it for all

:kick:

[faithnotgreed]

186. fwiw, my letter to media is in post #136. i really like your idea here

[Occulus]

208. Here's what I wrote

to Sen. Levin, from my homestate of MI:

Over the past week, several members of a political-based website (the links at the bottom of this message speak for themselves as to which internet message board I speak of) have been engaging in what has turned into nearly a 'master class' on a particular topic.

The topic at hand is the "outing" of Valerie Plame, wife of fmr. Amb. Wilson, as a CIA agent.

The discussion speaks for itself; all relevant links to media reports are present, as well as a great deal of logical speculation and supporting relevant documentation. This one single thread on this one specific message board addresses an issue that is a) extraordinarily damaging to our national security and b) almost completely unknown to the public at large.

It is my understanding that a grand jury is at or near the end of its investigation into this matter; perhaps this is why you have not spoken out regarding this topic. There are also national security issues to consider; I understand this, but woe if the subject disappears without a trace- this topic is known now to many, and will not go away.

I for one would very much like Senator Levin to openly address this issue. Valerie Plame's outing as an undercover CIA agent appears even upon cursory investigation to have been a most damaging breach of our national security as it relates to global terrorism, the movements and sale of weapons of mass destruction, and (potentially) plans by nominally friendly foreign governments and other allies to obtain the same.

The links to the three threads on an internet message board, which discuss this topic in almost exhaustive detail, are as follows:

(thread 1)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1902738

(thread 2)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1920799

(thread 3 - active)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1933148

Some people do know what's going on. Please realize this, and take the next step- whenever the current circumstances dictate you may.

Best regards,

me

[Tellurian]

212. Very nice letter, kgfnally..

please let us know if you get any kind of a response..

maybe instead of the proverbial message board, we should entertain someone's brilliant suggestion of having a space for important discussions dedicated to a special corner of DU..

This is completely out of my realm of further decision making..

Just reviving what I thought was a great idea..

[Pallas180]

213. KGFNLLY - I love Levin. He's right on it-one of the good guys

always questioning and giving them hell, but blocked just as Waxman
is.

Good letter.No, excellent letter.

Now send it out to rats like Hastert and chairmen of
investigative committees who are blocking having any investigations.

you can use a subject line:

WE'RE WATCHING YOU.

wouldn't that be funny? yes and no, they might as well know we ARE
watching them, just like they're watching us.

[Papa]

180. Back to Plame and a couple of questions

Im thinking out loud here, i was sitting in my car on lunch thinking about some of the things I have read for the last couple of days.

If Plame was outed possibly because of exposing members of this administration in WMD trafficking, that got me thinking about David Kelly, another WMD expert that was "taken out". Would Plame, a super spy, have dealings with Dr Kelley who was also a WMD person? Might Kelly have been taken out to wipe out the investigative trail? (maybe his "sexing up" claim was not the main reason he committed "suicide". This is wild speculation on my part.

If BUSH the 1st gets daily CIA briefings, does that mean that he would have been privy to the terrorist threat warnings prior to 911? Could he have used the information for the benefit of the Carlyle group? Is it possible that he passed or passes this information on the the Saudi's or Bin Laden's or other cronies? I find it curious that President Bush* mentioned after 911 in an interview with FOX that his dad is out of the loop and does not get the CIA briefings. Bush* either didn't know that his dad was getting briefings, or he did know and lied about his dad being out of the loop for whatever reason.

If it's true that Cheney or someone in the administration is involved in WMD trafficking, that might explain the Anthrax attack we had here and how they were able to get ahold of it. I always thought Anthrax attacks suspicious since they were directed to Democrats and the Media.

[burrowowl]

181. Interesting questions

To what depth are Bu$h I's briefings, inquiring minds want to know.

[Pallas180]

183. Ok something always bothered me. Kennebunkport, Maine -what was Atta

doing flying up to Portland Maine for the night before 9/11.

Who was he meeting? seeing?

Where did he stay?

Why has there been absolutely no mention of it or investigation of it
in ANY forum, commission, committee ? ? ?

Portland, Maine.

Kennebunkport, Maine.

If they weren't in Maine trying to off daddy, were they there getting instructions and payment to a swiss bank account ????

[jumptheshadow]

234. Self-deleted

EOM

[Occulus]

206. Just the fact

that he's apparently receiving daily CIA briefings while engaging in business deals with ME nations should be enough to give one pause.

[Pallas180]

182. PAPA -welcome. Your Para 2 & 3 sound highly plausible, but

it is not a question of Cheney having illegally trafficked as head
of Halliburton in 1995 with nuclear goods to forbidden parties, it
is a fact, to Libya for certain and to who knows who else. A 1.2million fine is pretty hefty.

That was 1995. Pottymouth Cheney did not resign from Halliburton
until May 2001 is my understanding. Wasn't there a rhubarb about his
still being involved and being the Veep. Could have been May 2000 but
I dont think so.

Now wouldn't that be interesting if Ms Plame was tracking and about to
or already had the goods on Cheney misdoings once again with nukular after 1995 - She'd better be careful of flying, driving, drinking, eating, and talking to strangers.

By the way, that Dr Kelley committed suicide or murdered was under a great deal of doubt.

[coeur_de_lion]

187. I'm not H2O man, but I did find a few links . . .

The Scientist and the Prime Minister
Posted 2003-12-01 New Yorker
http://www.newyorker.com/online/content/?031208on_onlin...
Excerpt:
Is there a parallel to be drawn between the Kelly affair and the Valerie Plame affair, in which Ambassador Joseph Wilson’s wife was exposed as a clandestine C.I.A. agent after he criticized the Administration on Iraq?

There are two obvious parallels. First, they both are connected to the crucial issue of whether Saddam had any W.M.D.s. (Plame’s husband helped to discredit the allegation that Iraq had purchased uranium from Niger.) Second, in both cases a government released the identity of a relatively obscure public official in order to further its political ends. Unlike Plame, Kelly wasn’t a spy, and confirming his name didn’t put him, or any of his contacts, in any danger. But he was a very private person, and we now know, of course, that he found the publicity devastating.

Beyond that, I’m not so sure whether the two scandals should be compared. The Plame scandal, it seems to me—and I may be criticized for saying this—is a case of petty vindictiveness by the White House. Kelly’s unmasking, on the other hand, was part of a much bigger story.

The cautionary tale of two public servants
By Floyd J. McKay
Special to The Seatle Times
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/200180081...


I found nothing however, that linked Plame and Kelly -- just that their stories were similar. And I looked pretty hard.

[Papa]

188. Thanks for looking

Unless there is some unknown connection that exists between Plame and Kelly, or if Kelly was a spy and we just don't know about it yet... it appears the two are unrelated. Like I said, it was just wild speculation on my part, brainstorming outloud.

I would imagine Wilson would have said something or hinted at it in his book or public appearances if there was some kind of connection.

[Pallas180]

194. Back to Plame - 2 tons of enriched uranium removed from Iraq

today.

Does anyone know how and where Iraq got two tons of enriched uranium?

[Tellurian]

199. toons~

[Papa]

200. It appears that Iraq had enriched uranium from the late 80's early 90's

Take a look at these links
http://www.fas.org/news/un/iraq/iaea/dgsp1991n09.html

and

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/iraq/facility/tarmiya.htm

The first link is titled INSPECTIONS IN IRAQ Statement of IAEA Director General to IAEA Board of Governors from 1991

We know that they had "substantial amounts of nuclear materials, declared on 7 July and now inspected, including such materials as U02, UCl4, and UF6 should have been placed under safeguards."

From what I remember, we invaded Iraq and failed to secure the facilites that had atomic waste and apparently enriched uranium too. I remember reading stories about Iraqis that stole some barrels and were using them for drinking water and they got sick.

[Pallas180]

184. INDICTMENTS - 7/7 Ken Lay, Energy Consultant to Cheney's

Secret Govt. Energy Committee was indicted today in the Enron debacle.

It came out in the news this evening, in a tape replayed that Ken Lay expected to be named Energy Dept. Head.(how was this tape gotten? was FBI taping Ken Lay? then they know more than has been revealed)

Now if I were Ken Lay, I would plea bargain the fraud I committed for my information about Cheney's evildoing in the Energy Committee for a suspended sentence.

If I were Prosecutor Fitzgerald up in Wash. DC I would have one of my attorneys or myself take a very quick run down to Austin for some interviewing of Ken Lay.

Anyone want to call up Prosecutor Fitzgerald and tell him to shake his booty???

[Zorra]

192. Wow, Ken Lay in the Bu$h administration. Perfect fit.

[Beetwasher]

193. Hmm, I Wonder What Plame Was Working On...Could It Have Something

to do w/ stuff like this, even tangentially? I mean she was working on WMD proliferations, and Pak WOULD be a large focus in such work...I wonder if she knew anything about any of the obvious quid pro quo that's going on in the US/PAK relationship...

http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040719&s=aaj071904

[Pallas180]

197. Well we could always send Joe Wilson all 3 threads and ask him.

said lightly, meant seriously. You never know. We may have hit on
something even they don't know.

By the way, if you think people in congress know all the stuff we know
you're wrong. They don't have the time, they're isolated and unaware.

How do I know? I once spoke with the office of a congressman who was
interested in impeaching the monkey and they didn't know about an
article (forget who it is written by) which showed chimp is following
Adolph's plan, attack falsely blamed, arming, war, corpoations, fascist govt - step by step exactly.

So I faxed it to them.

[coeur_de_lion]

201. Sit down, my son

Line from F-911! Remember it?

The congressman on F-911 said they don't read most of what they get -- no time. Passed the Patriot Act without so much as glancing at it.

I like your style, Pallas!! A person of action.

[Tellurian]

202. Pallas, man of action...please start a new thread...

my scroll bar is herniating a carpel tunnel..

[Snazzy]

224. yeah! I'm a-waiting on thread 4 for my follow the money post

Managed to finish reading parts one to three finally. Great work everybody. Got some insights. I've been telling friends this whole thing is like watching Watergate on fast-forward. I hope July 14 or approximate gives us some "I am not a crook" type action. We're due.

I've been trying to dig a bit about what Riggs bank means or at least put some stuff out there--watch for that in thread #4. Coming soon.

[Pallas180]

217. Conyers is a another good guy - very - patriot act was sprung on them

late at night, thousand pages, and they were told they had to vote
on it in the morning - another game the rethuglicans have taken to
playing on the democrats --- do you remember old Senator Byrd, the dean of the Senators and constitutional expert, standing up and orating against the patriot again and again? and saying dont vote for
it -

but they didnt listen.

If anyone gets together the threee threads in PDF format or whatever here's a list to start sending the threads to:

That's another one - if you can get it in PDF format - send it on
to Byrd's office, they'll also know what to do with it.

Jay Rockefeller too.

Charlie RAngel

Durbin

Feingold

McDermott

Boxer

Feinstein

Schumer

Conyers (many of these are on the Senate and House judicial committee who would start impeachment articles if they weren't blocked by republican chairman.)

Pat Roberts - republican - it'll give him a heart attack -

Graham of Florida - he's getting out and has nothing to lose

aaaand by all means Senator Patrick Leahy of Vermont....I'm sure
he would enjoy the goods on Cheney..he's the gentle man who Cheney
told to go F___ Off.

Hey, we know an honest man. Send it to Dr. Howard Dean. He's got a mouth and no fear - and contacts I'm sure.

How about Al FRanken at that radio station.

Randi Rhodes, she's got a big mouth and a radio show

60 MINUTES!!!! Mike Wallace. The administration will have diarreah!

[Occulus]

207. sending these 3 threads to Wilson in the .doc format

or, better yet, .pdf format if anyone here has Adobe Acrobat (I don't) and the motivation to make these threads into an Acrobat document, might not be a bad idea. Sending them to multiple officials or former officials who have spoken out might be better.

Then again, there's always the question of legal liability. I'm no lawyer; I have no idea how that concept might apply.

[coeur_de_lion]

235. send the three threads in their entirety?

Shouldn't we condense them down to the main ideas expressed in these posts? IMHO if we send them hundreds of pages and they have to read through all of it, they will stop after the first few pages.

Can we edit them down? What to do?

[Tellurian]

198. I would hope so...

If journalists can pinpoint and articulate patterns of hegemony exercised by US foreign relations. I would think this is something that would be considered a bread & butter item for VP. However, I have trouble believing the underlined statement:

"But Powell conspicuously did not commit the United States to selling F-16s to Pakistan, which it desperately wants in order to tilt the regional balance of power against India. And the Pakistanis fear that, if they don't produce an HVT, they won't get the planes.

Equally, they fear that, if they don't deliver, either Bush or a prospective Kerry administration would turn its attention to the apparent role of Pakistan's security establishment in facilitating Khan's illicit proliferation network.

One Pakistani general recently in Washington confided in a journalist, "If we don't find these guys by the election, they are going to stick this whole nuclear mess up our asshole."

[daria_g]

211. More info..

(Been reading all these threads - amazing stuff, all..)

Some pertinent info over at DEA Watch, scroll down to find the stuff I'm quoting here..

http://members.aol.com/deawatch/daily.htm

July 7:
Results of yesterday's 24 hour Survey, con't:

(QUESTION 1/3: Active Employees: Have you been privately contacted by an FBI or CIA agent about a past or current case or suspect that might involve drugs and terrorist financing?)

Back on the 29th of last month someone put together a survey on DEA Watch asking if retired (and active) DEA agents were being contacted privately by CIA or FBI (agents) about any info they might have acquired regarding drugs and terrorist financing. I did not want to respond to that survey because I was also contacted at my home (I am now retired) and I was asked several times not to disclose my conversation with anyone... not even my wife. But tonight at dinner my wife told me she had been contacted by another (DEA retiree's) wife at work (my wife is not retired) who said that her husband was asked to do an interview with a newsmagazine about CIA and FBI looking into terrorist financing their operations with drug money with the hope that any contacts might lead them to OBL or his major cronies. I called my friend who told me that there is a major move coming out of the White House to get OBL or some of his cronies. Apparently there is a lot of pressure being put on CIA and FBI to get OBL or his major cronies before the November election. So after talking to my friend on the phone me and wife sit down to TV where there was a report that CIA is also putting pressure on the Pakistanis to deliver OBL or his gang so that Bush can use it as a victory toward getting re-elected.

First, let me say thanks to the DEA Watch writer who broke this story on the 28th by surveying the rest of us. Now we know that this questioning of DEA retirees is not limited to us but part of a massive new operation or program being pushed by the Bush Administration to help George Bush get re-elected. The news report said that a magazine called "The New Republic" (hardly a liberal magazine) will do a big story on this.

For my part, I am very, very disappointed that Mr. Bush is now politicizing the war on terror for his personal benefit. Had he not invaded Iraq he probably would have caught OBL long before now. And DEA should have been a major player in Afghanistan because of all the drug activity there that is paying the terrorists to do what they do.

July 3:
Special Messages:

Scrawl on the blackboard is Mssr. Bush has now made the wise decision, though painful. He has decided that the presidency is more important than friendship. He has decided that serving the American public is more important than personal loyalty. He has decided, under pressure, that the lives of our Nation's CIA agents cannot and must not be politicized.

Mr. Joseph Wilson is one of our country's best. But he should not be satisfied with the upcoming squeal. Joe must continue to look beyond Mr. Bush's sacrifice to save his presidency.

During Watergate the rule was 'Follow the money'. Today when we are dealing with traitors in the highest levels of our government the rule is: 'Follow the weasel'. There are not two traitors as reported by Robert Novak. There is a nest of traitors.

Wipe the blackboard... separate subject: Anthrax.

[Pallas180]

215. Whoa - - - never saw anything like that before Daria, where did

that come from?

is that a site on the web? where govt people post??

pls advise

[faithnotgreed]

216. may i ask what was meant by "decision" in 1st para under "july 3"

incredible post and i was glad to see that you had seen cnn regarding tnr article coming out. this prompted a couple separate threads that you likely have seen

[Snazzy]

221. 'Follow the weasel'

Like that!

Interesting site, thanks.

[Pallas180]

222. Also whoever is putting this in PDF or Adobe, send to John Dean

he understands their workings, what they;re up to, more about
their operations and either would make a book out of this or send
it on to his contacts in CIA, FBI or who knows

[Pallas180]

223. Just came to me, maybe Valerie Plame was the one who caught Cheney

in 1995 selling illegal nuclear to Quadafi and has it out for
her ever since. if so she cost his company 1.2 million....and you'd be surprised, the richer you are the cheaper you are and fight for every penny.

Maybe it's as simple as that. ? She's the one who did her job and
reported him?

[Snazzy]

229. I keep hearing dif things about what country her focus was

I've read either Saudi or Iraq (but you'd think all the wmd people were on Iraq to some degree). Maybe we don't know (?) or it was broadly wmd proliferation.

Halliburton has problems all over the place, but maybe the most interesting is Iran--in terms of US not wanting another 'Islamic bomb' and Halliburton not giving a shit. That story broke publicly in Feb.:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/oil/story/0,11319,1146372,00.html

This broke as a Treasury investigation. Money/biz from Halliburton Dubai.

Halliburton's Nigeria problems began closer to Plame/Novakula. But not sure why wmd specialist would be on Nigeria.

But who knows, need more info. Libya, Pakistan, your hot spot here.

[Lestatdelc]

225. NEW here

In the first archive of this thread H20 posed the question... why Plame... why the rush for Iraq... those are related and it is via WMD, but Iraq was not invaded BECAUSE of WMDs, it was because of a LACK of WMD

Why?

Because of three things:

1) Iraq being cleared of WMD by the UNMOVIC/UNSCOM meant Desert Storm (when Saddam went off the reservation) was over and sanctions had to be lifted.

2) Iraq had European contracts for their oil.

3) Iraq was going to trade the oil in Euros not petrodollars.

Remember, Bush/Saud are the same thing. BDM/Vinnel (Carlyle at the time) arm, train, equip man what keeps Saud in power. Saudi crude funds the whole Bush/Saud crew. Iraq suddenly free again to sell its oil, and in Euros not only screws Bush/Saud, but would cripple the US economy along multiple fracture lines.

First and obviously, having the 2nd largest oil reserve of accessible crude come onto the market will drive the value of Saudi crude into the basement. That Iraq would end run the rest of OPEC to make up for a decade of being starved would scatter the cartel members into the winds to fend for themselves. So what is better, to let Iraq crude take out your own operation at the knees or take it over and roll it into the same portfolio.

Second, because Iraq was gonna devalue your own assets in the first place, doing so outside our traditional partner firms and with European (French, Russian, German) firms visions of Chinnese orders means you are not getting a swing at that crude even in the rest of the chain.

Third, and most critical (and actually more "forgivable" in a strange circumpolar way) is that trading in Euros not petrodollars collapse our capital market funding of our debt and deficits, both Governmental budget and general economic. If China (as its demand for oil goes through the roof in the next 10 years) starts trading with Iraq, and the Euro becomes the currency for oil (not to mention it is already on the edge of surpassing the dollar for capital markets anyway base don value as it is) suddenly China has no need to continue to buy our debt. It would get more of a return in Euros, plus it buys oil form Iraq in Euros, etc. etc.

The chasing after buyers for our currency to fund our deficits (trade and monetary) would mean radically raising interest rates to keep people buying it. Their goes most of our economy as the ripple of interest rates would throw us into a recession/depression. And their would be an even WORSE problem/risk then facing us as well.

If China and the capital markets STOP buying our debt, our economy falls into an economic black hole and could only emerge when China (the rest of the developing world) and the US are on economic parity. That is THE abyss for America.

China can do without the American market as it has a ready built market 5 times as large as the North American continent within its own borders. And because of outsourcing and production off-shoring of the past decade and a half (and heading into the next half) it has the manufacturing base to feed their domestic market whether those factories turn out Nikes™ for US consumption to "whatever" name to the domestic market.

Controlling the oil has been the underpinning of our ENTIRE core foreign policy since the end of WWII.

This is why we installed the Shah in 53, this is why the CIA kept the Ba'athists from going to far into Soviet procurement arms (by our kicking Saddam back into the Iraq after his first coup attempt in the 50s) even though the Ba'athists where a "nationalist" (read socialist) movement, why we have propped up Saudi Arabia from the moment the guns fell silent on WWII. This was for two (at the time coequal which became singular) reasons. keep it out of the Soviet hands, and keep it in "our" big oil hands.

OPEC in the early 70s was testing the price limit to find the outer edge.

But "our" number one client/puppet was the Shah. We sold him F-14s, something we would not even sell to our NATO allies. He had SAVK, which made Saddam's secret police seem like Haight-Ashbury. He was, like Saddam, secular which was not the case with Saud, which was religious extremists who the British put in place to take out the Turks in WWI.

So when the population got feed up, it turned to religion (since the Shah was a corrupt western secular puppet) and revolution. Students start the revolution, and the Ayatollah becomes the rallying figure. The Shah falls, flees... we (now the "Great Satan") throw our lot in with Saddam to hold the line. We sell him WMDs, intel, attack gun-ships (American made) to set-up a back-burn to stop the Islamic Revoltuon wildfire that is now burning towards the oil fields, having already lost a vast supply to the now radicalized Iranian Revolutionary Council.

Just after the USSR collapses, Saddam goes off the reservation by the sucker move that we had no position in his long-standing quest to get at Kuwaiti oil fields, stop their lateral drilling and gain port access that wasn't spitting distance from the Iranians he had been engaging in an 8 year, 1 million+ dead war with.

This is used as pretext to scare the shit out of the Saudi's with doctored intel that Saddam is amassing Republican Guards to move into Saudi Arabia, and we start building bases, and moving in 500k+ troops, and making permanent installations. All this whole time (and decades prior) been training, arming and equipping the Saudi Secret police and internal security forces as Saudi unemployment rises to 30% (remember in the US 25% was called the Great Depression).

We build Desert Shield, then execute Desert Storm, and take out the Iraqi military with a robust 3rd generation military vs. a depleted 2nd generation military, but Bush Sr. doesn't pull the trigger then on Saddam, because we are not sure of his WMD capability. We risk the entire shooting match if we turn the wrong way in the Euphrates river valley.

So we cut a deal to not go for the decapitation then and there. We impose the no-flys, insist on WMD removal through the UN, and hint that if the Iraqi's overthrew Saddam we wouldn't feel bad about Saddam going... but then... the unthinkable happened.

Bush with a 71% approval rating in less than a year loses the election and Bill Clinton and the Democrats suddenly have the keys to the White House, the first time in 12 years and first time since OPEC was brought into the fold after Carter's undoing.

Now do you see why Clinton was hunted...?

Now does trooper-gate, travel-gate, bimbo-gate, Vince Fosters murder-gate, Ron Brown murder-gate and a fucking blue dress make sense...?

[gandalf]

226. Welcome to DU!

That's quite a long and well-informed first post, thanks for the contribution.

If you make always such long posts, you will never reach a high number, which is a kind of status symbol...;)

on edit: you should remove one slash in the link to your homepage in your profile.

[Lestatdelc]

228. Thanks

Just curious... how many posts does it take to create a topic post...?

I usually live over at the AAR (O'Franken Factor) blog and post occasionally on dKos, I pick up some good stuff over on those now and again (as well as Atrios) and would like to be able to post stuff here which may not be related to a particular thread topic yet.

[gandalf]

230. Around 10, max 15 posts, I think

and you can have your own thread here.

From my own experience, it is not easy to "place" your thread. Even if you invest some time to write a (in your eyes) good, interesting article, not too long, it may drop to the bottom of GD in less than 10 minutes -- at least during the busy times.

On the other hand, threads that start with only one sentence, a personal opinion, can become very "successful" if the topic is very controversial or interesting to the people here.

[Lestatdelc]

232. Thanks

Yeah.. having it scroll off the bottom is an issue over at Daily Kos, though at least here if people are responding it keeps it up in active play I would think.

[burrowowl]

227. Welcome to DU, Lestatdelc!

Going to bed, but will take a gander at your webpage.

[LibertyorDeath]

231. That is one excellent summation... Welcome

Pull up a chair & stay a while.

[Lestatdelc]

233. Thanks

I will try and stick around some.. there was some good stuff, some real tin-foil stuff in this and some other threads so far (a DKos diary entry lead me to the 3 threads on this topic), need to separate the wheat form the chaff of course, like most places.

But hopefully I can juggle my time between here and taking the trolls off at the knees over on the Air America blog.

;-)

[Moderator]

236. Locking due to length.....

Please continue here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1946368


Thank you.

DU Moderator