If and when indictments come down in the Plame case,

[shraby]

what then is the next step? What are the procedures?

[LosinIt]

1. the next step is that the Repub Talking Points will be rabid

against the liberals who brought these indictments to bear.

[fizzana]

27. I suspect we might be about to see a one-two punch

Indictments in the Plame case and Josh Marshall's expose re the original forged yellowcake papers that started this.

[seemslikeadream]

2. Do ya get to turn yourself in for espionage

or do they come after ya with handcuffs?

[ewagner]

3. Good question

Assuming indictments come down, the next steps should be arraignments and setting dates for preliminary hearings, defense motions, etc.

Don't expect trials to come down for a year or so.........

on edit: Maybe some DU legal-eagles can get more specific or correct any mistakes I made.

[tnlefty]

Dang! I figured the next step would be gettin' the Pardoning Pen to paper

rather quickly!

[GreenPartyVoter]

4. Any chance * could be indicted?

[gandalf]

5. 1/1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

or below. Just a guess. Naturally I hope otherwise.

[GreenPartyVoter]

7. *Sigh* Well, you are giving it better odds than I would have. *l*

[billybob537]

6. NEWS FLASH

Nov. 3rd 04 Bush* pardons all defendants in Plame case.

[Cyrano]

8. Next "News Flash"

Nov. 4th 04. Citizens storm White House carrying pitchforks.

Secret Service fires RPG's into crowd killing and maiming thousands.

[Rosco T.]

28. NEWS FOLLOWUP

Military open fire upon Secret Service..

[are_we_united_yet]

148. Next News Followup

Experts believe mele' is Clinton's fault.

[H2O Man]

9. The indictments which are already in

the works are not being discussed publicly for two reasons: first, and most obvious is that grand jury proceedings (including an investigatory g.j.) are secret; the second, and far more important, is because what is potentially going to occure will create a Constitutional crisis unlike anything that we have dealt with in our nation's history. Older folks who recall the Watergate years -- which absolutely pale in comparison -- know that our federal government, with its theoretic separation of powers, is indeed fragile. This is not a game. Our country's future hangs in the balance.

(*** What is happening IS being discussed in rooms where the real power lies ... very few elected officials are included at this level, and no media has access to these discussions.)

[chiburb]

10. Right on. n/t

.

[lancdem]

11. I've heard that the grand jury ended its session yesterday

Is that true? BTW, if Bush and Cheney are implicated, that would certainly create a constitutional crisis.

[nixonwasbetterthanW]

12. Waterman: have you got info?

I'm just curious whether your comment that indictments "are already in" is based on credible sources or educated speculation.

[H2O Man]

15. Interesting question....

However, even if a person HAD "credible sources," they would have to say "educated speculation." But let's look closer at a couple of points of interest ..... a day or two ago, I posted some quotes from Joe Klein's "Plenty More to Swear About" in the July 5 TIME (pg 21). Klein, writing in a "mainstream" media, tells of CI and MI sources who privately inform him of the outrage these various and extremely powerful agencies feel towards this administration. For the first time that I am aware of, Klein informs the public that Plame "may have been active in a sting operation involving the trafficking of WMD components" when the White House revealed her identity. "Ony a very high-ranking official could have had access to the knowledge that Plame was on the payroll" of the CIA, an intel source told Klein.

Do NOT underestimate the significance of this. Exposing the CI operative went way --WAY -- beyond "getting back" at her husband.
In 2000, we saw a very real constitutional crisis regarding the presidential election. The division of powers came into play. But listen: the presidency has become, in many, many ways, a mere "front" for the real powers. Do you live in a town or city? Well, the elected officials don't really run the town or city! They front!

Bush is NOT the leader. He's a clown -- it's as if Ronald McDonald was so confused that he thought he were real....and we KNOW that ONLY children believe that! The closest we have come to seeing the real powers was when cheney decided the nation's energy policy .... but the supreme court AGAIN violated the US Constituion by "legally" keeping public information private!

Now: if a clown like bush (or his clown friends) get "caught" breaking the law, and the court system is NOT IN A POSITION TO SAVE THEM, is that very real board of directors going to GIVE UP POWER? And fade away? No! This is FAR more serious than the children who laugh at Ronald McDonald believe, my friend. There are things going on right now that will alter the course our nation takes into the future. Believe it.

[seemslikeadream]

17. FromTheWilderness

U.S. intelligence sources have also said that Fitzgerald's investigation has gone far beyond the mere leaking of Plame's name, itself a violation of the Intelligence Identities Protection Act, but has expanded to look into the exposure of Plame's colleagues who worked under the cover of a CIA firm called Brewster, Jennings & Associates. The "brass plate" CIA proprietary had offices in Boston and Washington, DC. Active since 1994, Brewster-Jennings was instrumental in tracking the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction (WMDs) and had agents or correspondents in a number of countries including Iraq, North Korea, Belarus, Russia, South Africa, Iran, Israel, China, Pakistan, Congo (Kinshasa), India, Taiwan, Libya, Syria, Serbia, and Malaysia. By releasing Valerie Plame’s name, other agents' non-official covers were blown and the lives of U.S. operatives within foreign governments and businesses may have been placed in danger. Therefore, Fitzgerald's investigation has reportedly been expanded to include the issue of whether members of the staffs of President Bush and Vice President Cheney, Cheney and Bush themselves, the National Security Council, and the Departments of Defense and State, may have violated more serious espionage laws.

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/062504_grand_jury_summary.ht...

[H2O Man]

18. You will notice more republicans

talking about "civilian control of the military" in this presidential campaign. It is starting as a response to comparisons between Kerry's record of military service vs bush's. Yet we can take it a step further: who is now "in charge" of the military? Are the generals determining US policy, or is Halliburton? That's a serious question.

Again, from Klein in TIME (7-5; pg 21): "Two other serious, surreptitious - and quite possibly unprecedented - battles are going on: the intelligence community is at war with the White House, and the uniformed military is at war with the civilian leadership of the Pentagon."

This is a strange time in American history.

[merh]

74. Keep in mind that a majority of the folks that work in the intelligence

community love this country as much as the most gungho GI. Its the mindset you have to take to do your job and to be effective. The cause is more important than the risk.

Now you add to that the fact that weedboy & his band of rethugs have blamed them for everything to 9/11 to the mess that Iraq is and you have some people that are not happy seeing the clown in chief get away with the crimes he has committed in office. Add to that the leaks and you have set a match to a slow, methodical fuse.
They are used to building their case in secret and in taking their time until they get it right.

Now add to that the fact that the "weed that would be king" ignored the Pentagon's advice regarding Iraq, that he has stretched the military thin, that outsourcing contracts have been awarded to cronies instead of putting the money in the military budgets, that they have to serve side by side with private mercenaries, and I would say you have some really pissed off folks.

You have some big powers mad as hell at weedboy and they are going to dot their "i's" and cross their "t's" but they are not going to sit back and let him the nation that they love. (IMHO)

[H2O Man]

77. I agree 100% !!!

This administration has crossed the wrong people. And now they're gonna have to pay their dues.

[redstateblues]

149. Is This All Some Fantasy?

I have been waiting for some verifiable shred of hard evidence that there will actually be indictments of major players in Chimp's administration. I want to believe this-but it's like some who predict the end of the world. So far nothing.

[gandalf]

20. "He's a clown" -- I agree. But who pulls the strings?

If the puppet masters of Bush were only these PNAC freaks, then some indictments would probably end the show.

But if other groups are the really important ones (the usual suspects, CFR, Rockefeller etc.), then a victory of Kerry would mean only a better front man, only better marketing.

FTW already speculated in July 2003 (I think in Beyond Bush II) that Kerry would be the candidate -- longe before that was clear.

[H2O Man]

25. Read "Farewell America"

by James Hepburn (fictitious name) which was originally published in Europe in 1968, and became a best-seller in 11 languages. For many years, it was almost impossible to get in the USA, much like "In the Spirit of Crazy Horse" and a couple other books. But it was recently made available by Penmarin Books. It has chapters on politicians, businessmen, oilmen, and Texas. Of course, my main man Kong may believe it is bullshit and tin-foil ..... it's as paranoid as the late Senator Daniel P. Moynihan, a comment you will get if you read the book.

Add to this "American Dynasty," by Kevin Phillips (another foil-head!) and the events on the world stage come into sharper focus. Guess what else: many of the issues documented in these very serious books are now made available for mass-consumption by the unbelievably accurate movie by Michael Moore. And that, my friend, threatens to take the fuzz right off the peach!

There are people in CI and the various MI agencies that are 100% patriotic, who have dedicated their lives to an effort to promote the true American values of democracy. They and others are in a conflict with those forces outlined in Farewell America & American Dynasty. This is real.

[frank frankly]

44. thank you for your posts today. i see the struggle much as you've descibed

our democracy is worth fighting for. it just was never meant to include everybody.

once the fascists lost in the Sixties with Civil Rights and Woman's Rights, they decided fuck the rules. the rules only applied when it was a gentleman's club.

[H2O Man]

47. As I recall, frank frankly,

we usually are in general agreement. And you are absolutely correct that "democracy" as such was intended to be a (white) gentlemen's club. Africans, Asians, Indians, and all women, were not included. "No Irish need apply" had more meaning than merely prejudice against Irishmen .... before the 1860s, Irish society recognized the equality (not exactness) of women, which was a terrible threat to the status quo.

Yet democracy is a living concept, and perhaps rather than seeing it as taking root in these "minorities," it is more accurate to say it finally began to take root in the closed minds of those white gentlemen.

We have a lot of work to do. This is a difficult struggle. But I'm confident that we will get there.

[truth2power]

55. I just went over to Amazon and read sample pages from Farewell America.

I encourage you all to go over there and look. Just reading a few pages brought back for me the feelings of loss when Kennedy was assassinated.

I've always considered myself a refugee of the sixties. There were people who had vision then. But they killed all of our leaders. I still feel the pain of that.

[Eloriel]

128. It's available online --

http://www.jfk-online.com/farewell00.html

Quite a read. It was very poignant reading for me, as another child of the 60s.

[merh]

75. I agree with you whole heartedly. ..

These guys have a greater respect for our nation and what it stands for than weedboy and his cronies. They are patient, methodical and cunning. They are not just aiming for weedboy & f'u, they want others involved to try to prevent it from happening in the future. Need to set examples and put the fear of god in them. Also need to keep 'em busy defending themselves for 4 years -- 2004 is only one election cycle - they don't want to run the risk of this craziness happening again.

[gandalf]

177. Thanks for this hint,

I will have a look at the book (thanks to hedda_foil who provided the link to a free version).

[truth2power]

57. FTW also said (in Beyond Bush I or II) that what we might end up with

would be more pleasant background music but no substantive change.

Very unsettling!

[Fla Dem]

293. kick

[goclark]

31. Alter it for Good or for Bad?

I am all for what ever happens as long as the Bushco Clowns are out of office.

[H2O Man]

37. We are at a cross-roads

and the only thing for certain is that things will NOT remain the same. JFK once wrote that, "The soft, the complacent, the self-satisfied societies will be swept away with the debris of history." We need to look very seriously at the reality of our present situation. Never take democracy for granted. Never be stupid enough to ignore the fact that there are forces -- primarily economic -- that are not supportive of the democratic process.

When people talk about "revolution" and the like, I always say BE CAREFUL! Or when people talk about militias, and things such as that. No, if these people knew what war was, they wouldn't talk that way. Those things wouldn't come out of their mouths.

Instead, believe that democracy is the best weapon we have. The right to vote. The Constitution, the Bill of Rights. These are the weapons we should be using. And I recognize most people on here know that.

I'm a firm believer in democracy. The democratic party is indeed imperfect, but it represents the best choice we have.

[TNOE]

39. H2o

where have you been all my life?? Well at least the 3 years I've been on DU. Your writing and knowledge is absolutely brilliant. I was so engrossed in your responses as to feel I was in some mystery novel. You are definitely one to watch. Thank you for your input here.

I know it may be a "dead" issue and sometimes I wonder myself - but in light of these indictments - I wonder if any truth of 9/11 will catch up with them too. There's got to be plenty of CIA with the goods on them for that too. Many activists are making a true dent with the truth that not only did this administration have foreknowledge but were in on the planning - they have been passing out flyers literally by the thousands at showings of F9/11 - they are not out of the woods on this one at all. God how I pray for the day.......

[H2O Man]

42. Thank you, TNOE!!!!

I appreciate your kind words. I've been on DU for about 7 months, and although I have over 1,000 posts, I find it rare that anyone responds to much of anything that I write. And when they do, it tends to be even rarer that anyone agrees with me! (grin)

A friend once told me a story, in which an airplane represented ourselves as human beings ..... however, I am confident that it can also represent "democracy" ..... There once was a primitive community that happened upon an airplane. Some became anxious, simply because it was something "new," and so they backed away in fear. A few others saw the seats, and made themselves comfortable, using it for lawn chairs. But then a couple of the more insightful recognized the motor's potential, and used it as a car. And a very few saw what the majority did not -- that this machine could fly!

And that, my good new friend, is where a few of us are at today! We know this machine has potential. It is not to be feared, nor to be lounged upon. It has not only the power to move: we can fly this machine! That's where I am, and I suspect it's where you are, too! Peace.

[lil-petunia]

69. Doesn't mean you are not widely read

and agreed with, though.

I am kinda new, and the pace is sometimes, well, the smell of burning rubbers always reminds me of victory.

[H2O Man]

71. Thank you, lil-petunia

In years past, I would at times feel a sense of frustration in trying to communicate -- either by talking or writing -- and recognizing that virtually no one was listening! (smile) But one of the many lessons of life is that no one can really teach anyone anything ... unless that "anyone" is at the point where they are very close to knowing the truth about the subject matter at hand. We've all had the experience of looking at something familiar -- and suddenly seeing it in a whole new light. And also the experience of trying to explain something that is absolutely clear and real to us, but which another person has no concept whatsoever. (That was the idea conveyed in chapter 20 of Carlos Castaneda's 1972 book, "Journey to Ixtlan.")

I think that a significant % of people on DU are interested in subjects with more depth that much of the entertaining nonsense reported in the media. We can all learn, and we all have things to offer. This is a good forum for that ..... and so I do appreciate when kind people like yourself say, "Yeah, H2O Man, I hear what you are saying, and this is what I think..."

[Eloriel]

132. It's especially difficult to explain something that is newly clear

and has triggered a minor paradigm shift (or a major one). or perhaps that's what you're talking about.

I read you too, and usually agree. I think my problem is that you usually say it all!! And so well. :-)

[H2O Man]

135. Yes, that's right.

It also goes beyond that shift. When we think of children -- even the smartest of children -- we find ourselves smiling at their confidence that they can understand ANYTHING, just as long as it is explained to them. (At least that's the way children SHOULD be; our culture beats that confidence out of far too many!) But there are some subjects that a child can not grasp on an adult level, no matter how we approach it with them. Yet as adults, we are confident that they will fully grasp these adult concepts in good time.

Likewise, as individuals, we may on occassion have an understanding of a concept (and I do not mean simply a "talent") that other adults believe they can understand, just so long as someone explains it to them. But some things can't be explained in so many words. Yet we can be confident that others will fully grasp these when the goodness of the TRUTH takes root in them.

And perhaps that's one reason why many of my previous posts have gone unanswered. Not because I'm any wiser, or better informed, or more insightful. But because I have spoken up on issues such as non-violence, spirituality, and the need for all of us to journey toward a higher ground. Those of us who speak that way on DU do not always get a positive response! (grin) But I'm confident about the future in that area.

This thread is a high-point, I think, on DU. Not the highest point, but an important marker on our way. Again -- thank you for your kind words -- and let's keep this discussion going!

[Jazzgirl]

239. I have always appreciated what you've said H2O Man.

I too am like many others who have commented here. I can't think of any reason to comment further because you've said it all and expressed everything I've felt. Reading this thread is the same. There is little I can say but "I agree." You are da man...

:yourock:

[dweller]

291. (off topic)

but glad to see another CC fan here.
Would love to carry on a conversation about that sometime.

meantime, back to this thread....very interesting.

dp

[merh]

76. love the story and your posts.

Thanks for helping us appreciate that this plane can fly!
:bounce:

[H2O Man]

78. Thanks!

I am impressed with those who appreciate Voltaire. When I see the actions of this administration, I am reminded of a quote -- and please help me with it if I have it wrong -- that "Ignorance is the mother of all cruelty."

I also find myself nodding in agreement with your statements on those in the capacity of CI/MI ..... it's a serious business that involves many very good and decent people who love what this country has the potential to be.

[merh]

80. I love mutual admiration posts ...

Thanks - it is so reassuring to see others write posts that reflect the many layers involved in all of this. The posts that were happening over the weekend regarding cancelling the election had plenty of people spooked, but I think that they have the intelligence community psyched, they will not let weedboy destroy what they love, they are just more determined to get it right so that they get him. It is not just about getting them, its about preventing this type of madness from happening in the future.

I am not familiar with that Voltaire quote. I am bad about keeping up with quotes, but when one such as the Voltair quote touches my soul, I keep it. Wish I were as astute as he and as well read as you. I am trying though.

Thanks again

[juajen]

124. I'm with you on that "lack of response" thingie

I have close to a couple of thousand posts, and, I think, that I have only had responses to a couple. Used to bug me, but now, I just write away.

Very good writing on your part. I, also, enjoyed your posts.

[Political_Junkie]

303. Wow, that's go to be

the most profound thing I've read in a long time. Thanks for this, H2O, got me some thinking to do!

[fob]

88. WHOA! Backup here WaterMan, does this sentence mean what I

think it means if it is true?

Plame "may have been active in a sting operation involving the trafficking of WMD components" when the White House revealed her identity

What I read that to say is, if bush* wasn't such a petty prick it may very well have played out that VALERIE PLAME could have discovered (or at least played a part) the WMD evidence that bush* used to justify his war?

Classic clustercheney.

[H2O Man]

90. Thank you! Thank You! THANK YOU!

Thank you, FoeOfBush ..... that is a key -- perhaps THE key -- to understanding what really occurred when the White House exposed Plame. Remember: the yellow-cake evidence had already been discredited, removed from speeches, re-inserted, and recycled.

Read Joseph Wilson's book. Carefully. The guy is brilliant. There is much more going on here than the network media's are revealing. I was shocked that Joe Klein had the decency to tell the public the truth in his 7-5 article in TIME (pg 21) .... which I have quoted from numerous times this week on DU.

Bush et al attacked Iraq because they knew that not only were there NO WMDs there, but that the UN inspectors had pretty much documented that fact. France and Germany were aware of this. As was China, I might add.

But we know that there are WMDs in many places on this planet. And investigate this with an open mind -- because the world is not a safe place today because of the # of unaccounted for weapons -- and there are enemies of the USA willing to use weapons against any American, because of the past and present policies of men like cheney. Now you begin to see what V Plame was working on .... and the big question remains: Why did the White House expose her? What investigation did they need to derail?

It's getting good on this thread, eh?

[seemslikeadream]

92. I'm following every word waterman

I think this all fits in here somewhere.

DrBB
PLEASE help me remember...
I distinctly recall reading an article related to all this in the New Yorker, well before 9/11. Pre-Bush II, also. Might have been by Sy Hersh. Might have been published in the first Clinton admin--that far back.

The occasion of the article was to bring out that, near the end of the Bush I administration, there had been an exceedingly narrowly-averted nuclear war on the Indian subcontinent. This was largely thanks to right-wing stupidity of some kind on the part of Bush I's foreign policy team. The article had a lot of evidence that we'd gone on high alert, and that India had come very close to nuking Pakistan. At that point, Pakistan did not have the Bomb, and my memory is hazy on the details of this, but what keeps bringing it to mind is this:

The article also went into some detail, IIRC, about US complicity in Pakistan's acquisition of nuclear technology. I seem to remember the article having been published before Pakistan tested its weapon, but I could be wrong about that, given the subject matter. Because the point was that the US not only looked the other way, but may have indirectly facilitated Pakistan's acquisition of necessary precursor technologies, in return for Pakistan's complicity in our operations in Afghanistan. That there was a quid pro quo: in return for allowing us to stage support for the anti-Soviet Afghan rebels through Pakistan, Pakistan required us to look the other way as they developed nuclear capability.
In other words, al Qaeda isn't the only blowback from our long and misguided involvement over there.
Anyone remember reading this, or seeing anything along these lines?

Here it is

On the Nuclear Edge

by Seymour M. Hersh
Issue of 1993-03-29
Posted 2004-01-12

In the past few weeks, news reports have revealed troubling information about the possible export of Pakistani nuclear technology to countries such as Iran and Libya, and about the role played in the transfers by Dr. Abdul Qadeer Khan, who is known as the father of the Pakistani bomb. There have long been questions about Dr. Khan, who has, whenever possible, avoided the public eye. In this piece from 1993, Seymour M. Hersh takes a prescient look at Pakistan’s nuclear proliferation, and at Dr. Khan.

On May 30, 1990, President Mikhail Gorbachev of the Soviet Union arrived in Washington for his second summit meeting with President George Bush. The Cold War was over, and the publicly announced agenda reflected that fact: the two world leaders would concentrate their talks on the future of unified Germany and on renewed negotiations to reduce long-range nuclear weapons. Most Americans were increasingly upbeat about the prospects for world peace. A Times/CBS public-opinion poll of more than eleven hundred Americans taken a week before the summit showed that fewer than one in five believed nuclear war to be likely by the year 2000—far fewer than those interviewed in earlier polls.

There was a fearful irony in the poll, because in the days before Gorbachev’s visit the Bush Administration became convinced that the world was on the edge of a nuclear exchange between Pakistan and India, as both nations continued their tug-of-war over control of the state of Kashmir, on India’s northern border, whose status has been in dispute since the collapse of the British Empire in India, in 1947. During months of increasing tension, India had massed two hundred thousand troops, including paramilitary forces, in Kashmir, and had deployed five brigades of its most sophisticated attack unit, the Indian Army Strike Corps, fifty miles from the Pakistani border in the south. Pakistan, against which the much larger India had fought—and won—three wars since 1947, openly deployed its main armored tank units along the Indian border and, in secret, placed its nuclear-weapons arsenal on alert. There would be no repeat of the disastrous two-week war of December, 1971, when Pakistan, outgunned and outgeneraled, was dismembered by an Indian blitzkrieg and lost what is now Bangladesh.

The American intelligence community, also operating in secret, had concluded by late May that Pakistan had put together at least six and perhaps as many as ten nuclear weapons, and a number of senior analysts were convinced that some of those warheads had been deployed on Pakistan’s American-made F-16 fighter planes. The analysts also suspected that Benazir Bhutto, the populist Prime Minister of Pakistan, had been cut out of—or had chosen to remove herself from—the nuclear planning. Her absence meant that the nation’s avowedly pro-nuclear President, Ghulam Ishaq Khan, and the Pakistani military, headed by Army General Mirza Aslam Beg, had their hands, unfettered, on the button. There was little doubt that India, with its far more extensive nuclear arsenal, stood ready to retaliate in kind.

CONTINUED...

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/content/?040119fr_archive02

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=646002

[calimary]

142. That would certainly be one explanation for why bush deep-sixed the

presidential papers of his dad when he first set foot in the Oval Office. I think he arranged to have the Reagan papers locked away, too, right as they were legally about to be released to the public.

I still want to know what's in those papers, and why we were all of a sudden not allowed to see them, AND what's in those energy task force papers.

[H2O Man]

145. There you go!

So much for "open" government, huh?

[lancdem]

94. Are you still thinking July 14 is the big day?

BTW, I love your posts. :)

[H2O Man]

114. Yes....

I am under the impression that July 14th will be a significant day in this grand jury investigation. I certainly hope that more of the information now known will become public on that day. My suggestion that DUers buy a bottle of fine wine/ great beer, and some foods such as shrimp or cheese and crackers, still holds. I'm confident we will be very happy by 5 pm est that day.

[burrowowl]

157. Bastille Day!

Wouldn't that be nice. Nice wine, cheese, bagette, pate, it is!

[H2O Man]

160. "Paris Spleen" by Baudelaire (1869)

GET DRUNK!

One should always be drunk. That's the great thing; the only question. Not to feel the horrible burden of Time weighing on your shoulders and bowing you to the earth, you should be drunk without respite.

Drunk with what? With wine, with poetry, or with virtue, as you please. But get drunk.

And if sometimes you should happen to awake, on the stairs of a palace, on the green grassof a ditch, in the dreary solitude of your room, and find that your drunkenness is ebbing or has vanished, ask the wind and the wave, ask star, bird, or clock, aske everything that flies, everything that moans, everything that flows, everything that sings, everything that speaks, ask them the time; and the wind, the wave, the star, the bird, and the clock will all reply: "It is Time to get drunk! If you are not to be the martyred slaves of Time, be perpetually drunk! With wine, with poetry, or with virtue, as you please."

Yes, Bastille Day ! Wine, cheese, and a toast to the freeing of all political prisoners! With wine, with poetry, and with virtue!

[burrowowl]

161. Yes

Enivrez-vous!

I aslo like Rimbaud's Le Bateau Ivre

[merh]

166. Do you think the French will indict Cheney for the

Haliburton bribes in Nigeria? I have always believed that the anti-French propangda spewed by bushco was just a spin that they have perpetuated as a stop gap measure. If the French are our enemies, then any charges they bring that include/involve cheney will be suspect. Discredit the reputation of the attacker, make the public distrust it and you have weakened its credibility.

[Occulus]

209. Yay! I have the day off that day.

I'll be trolling the news. :)

[scottxyz]

220. Novak outed Plame July 14, 2003

http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Valerie_Plame

On July 14, 2003, the name of Valerie Plame, wife of retired Ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV, was exposed by columnist Robert Novak as a CIA covert operative, writing:

"Wilson never worked for the CIA, but his wife, Valerie Plame, is an Agency operative on weapons of mass destruction. Two senior administration officials told me Wilson's wife suggested sending him to Niger to investigate" the allegation.

- - -

Is this why you think the indictments will be coming out on July 14, 2004? Kind of an anniversary?

[H2O Man]

224. While other cultures place a different emphasis

on anniversaries, the United States just loves them. We're one day away from the 4th of July ..... and I have three flags flying outside.... they represent JFK, MLK, & RFK ..... Each of these men loved poetry.

There's something poetic in what you've noted here, isn't there?

[fob]

116. No, Thank You, Sir.

Any chance we can spend $70 million investigating this? Hell, $70 oughta do it and I'LL give $100 to cover it.

Un-cheneying-believable.

[juajen]

125. I agree that there are too many weapons of mass destruction

However, have you seen Jane's list of the weapons we have been selling, and to very questionable countries, including Columbia, Pakistan,Iran, and the list is endless. I would think that if we want to know where WMD's are, we could just check and see who we had sold them to. I was shocked when I read this.

[Eloriel]

134. "What investigation did they need to derail?"

And of course, that nugget was sitting here all this while. We think of them as stupid, inept, venal, eager to engage in petty vindictiveness. Sometimes we misunderestimate them.

[calimary]

141. Whoa! "What investigation did they need to derail?" Whotta question!

I love your stuff, H2O Man! This is nuts!

I have been waiting on pins and needles, and wondering when the indictments are coming down, who they nail, and for what crimes, and how many "who they nail's" there are. Plus the "watch this space" stuff from Josh Marshall...

What investigation did they need to derail, indeed! Does that mean they knew what Plame was investigating, and that her work would prove they were liars? Or did they realize she was about to unearth all their connections to the Taliban, or Saddam, or al Qaeda in general and Osama in particular, or what? I'm going nuts here!

What do you think it means?

Thanks for all this thought-provoking stuff! It gets murkier and murkier, and smells fishier and fishier. Sure wish I had a crystal ball.

[H2O Man]

147. Earlier I quoted some of R. Buckminster Fuller's

classic, "Critical Path." Here's part that, as Col. Prouty notes in his book "JFK," that the New York Times would print:

"Each new year's foreign aid bill had a rider that said if American companies were present in the country being aided, the money (from foreign aid funds) had to be spent through those American companies ....Foreign aid paid for all the new factories and machinery of all the American companies moving out of America. This became a pattern: first, the largest 100 corporations, then the 200 largest corporations followed, then what Fortune calls the 500 largest corporations ..... the main objective ... was for the corporations to get out from under the tax control of the American government .... This allowed the corporations to acquire gold equities while US citizens and small domestic businesses could not do so."

We've been "sold out" .... not just by the Kenny-Boy Lays who rob our savings accounts and retirement funds ..... but by other SNAKES who have no morals, no patriotism, and no sense of honor ... they are psychopaths (and I mean that 110%!) who have taken part in dealing weapons -- including the components of WMDs -- on the "black market" to forces that are determined to destroy America.

Earlier today, in response to a pointed comment about the "flat earth" believers, I wrote about the Malthusian theory of population, and what this implies in relation to the power elite. These two concepts are as closely related as the bush family and the Saudi royalty, and as dangerous as the weapons these folks have sold to Pakistan's snakey associates.

Plame and a number of others were investigating criminals far more dangerous that Saddam Hussein.

[Occulus]

210. Wow.

A litany of sins hath corporate personhood wrought.

Why don't more people understand that facet of the goings-on?

[scarletwoman]

215. Well, the simplest answer is that the corporate media

don't WANT people to understand this.

I certainly had no idea about what was going on with corporations until I got a computer in 1999 and started researching it for myself.

How many people are actually motivated to do that on their own? For every person I know with a computer, hardly ANY of them (outside of DUers) are using them for political information. They use them for shopping, emailing friends and playing computer games.

How many politicians or people in the public eye make a peep about corporate personhood? There's NO public debate about this sort of thing -- where would anyone ever hear about it in the first place?

We here at DU are a very self-selected group. What we know about a whole LOT of things is because we very purposefully seek out this information. We are very much the exception in the populace, quite atypical.

The vast bulk of the citizenry of this country seems happy to remain ignorant. If the mainstream media doesn't cover something, it doesn't exist. It's very simple...

sw

[scottxyz]

219. Neocons/Straussians often go for the "two-fer"

I have noticed that neocons/Straussians often go for a "two-fer". Scaring Joe Wilson and simultaneously derailing whatever Valerie Plame was investigating would have been a classic example of this.

Sorry I'm too tired right now to come up with any more examples.

[mzmolly]

223. I hadn't considered this aspect.

" Why did the White House expose her? What investigation did they need to derail?"

:wow:

Thanks from another fan H20. We can only hope the intelligence community takes this admin down before November. :hi:

Strange days indeed.

[seemslikeadream]

14. So I'm wondering

Treason, espionage, and what's the difference.

Oh and is it going to be President Hastert? Boy won't northern Illinois be proud.

[Kong]

16. What Kind Of Bullshit Anwer Is That

Some secret cabal of the ultra powerful deciding the future of the Constitutional Government. Give me a break.

This is a legal matter, it will be handeled much like a car theft ring. There is no secrete group of world masters out there trying to figure out the fate of the nation. That's just more tin-foil-hat shit.

[H2O Man]

19. Yeah, you're probably right.

I think that probably those energy folks who met in secret with cheney in regard to US economic policy were not really an ultra powerful group determining our future. They were common folks, just like you and me. And the fact that vp cheney wants to keep it secret really just shows how open our government can be. How foolish of me to think otherwise!

And when the US Supreme Court selected bush as president at the end of the 2000 "election," they were simply acting in our best interests. It's trouble-makers like that darned tin-foiler Vince Bugliosi who writes "The Betrayal of Amertica," documenting the financial interests that behind closed doors swayed the court that lead idiots like me astray. And if tens of thousands of black voters are illegally taken off the rolls, and denied the right to vote, it's probably for the good of the democratic system. Who are we to question what Ms. Harris & friends do?

The Patriot Act is not anti-democratic. It's those foil-heads that get whipped into a frenzie by that conspiracy theorist Michael Moore that question it. Even Brittany Spears said we should trust president bush. I hope she does a concert with Pat Boone soon.

We've been told the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth about the war in Iraq. And there was nothing secret about exposing Plame. At least it was discussed publicly.

When General wesley Clark (retired) told Richard Clarke to come public with what he knew, it was only to cause problems. These men hate freedom. Besides, they've never been elected to public office.

This White House hasn't done anything worse than jay-walking. They pose no threat to the democratic system at all. Thanks for helping me with this.

[maxpower]

21. Good answer

No sarcasm intended I'm sure

[H2O Man]

24. None.

I've changed my entire belief system, based entirely upon the wisdom and insight provided by a new friend. I've peeled off that tin-foil that blinded me in the past. Where once I thought there was evidence that a "secret" group of individuals could kill leaders like JFK, MLK, and RFK, I now realize that the Warden's Commission told the truth. These events were no worse than a group of high school students seeing how many gold fish would fit into a phone booth. I have a renewed sense of patriotism that provides an intense security in its shallowness.

[maxpower]

64. Ignorance is bliss

All is well remain calm. Our fearless leader will protect us all.

[Jim Sagle]

101. And our chocolate rations are being increased...next year.

[thinkingwoman]

65. how many gold fish would fit into a phone booth...LOL

Hey H20, I almost spit tea all over the screen.

Thanks, I am awake now.

Your posts are always a pleasure, and I am looking forward to watching the Plame case play out. I've thought since it broke that it would be this administration's undoing. I hope I am right, but I recognize the danger our democracy is in as it works through this process. Guess that makes me a tinfoil hatter too. (I'm late, I'm late, for a very important date with a coincidence theorist...)

Sorry for the rambling...not enough caffeine in me yet. Carry on.

[H2O Man]

66. At least you're spitting tea......

If you spit green pea soup, I'd be concerned that a republican spirit was moving through you. I'm starting to wake up this morning, too .... this was an interesting thread, and I'd love to continue with it today. I've got an errand to run, and then I'm thinking of a question to ask .... in terms of who the "deep throat/ Mr. X" will be in this case .... while people are often (correctly) a bit anxious about the role of military people in "civilian" politics, it was good of Gen. Al Haig (part of the composit Deep Throat) to help expose Watergate, and for Col.L.F. Prouty to help with the JFK assassination.

[thinkingwoman]

68. wish I could

continue this discussion today but unfortunately I have to go to work....I'll check back later though and try to catch up.

[TreeHuggingLiberal]

30. One question...

why would Ret. Gen. Wesley Clark advise Clarke to go public only to cause problems? What are you insinuating is Clark's role in all of this?

[H2O Man]

61. I was making a tongue in cheek

response to Kong's statement. That said, those who follow the news know that Gen. Wesley Clark is reported to be the key person in convincing Richard Clarke to write his book. The "trouble making" part was the joke -- Gen. Clark is among the most honorable people in our country. He represents the most insightful and patriotic of military (retired) leaders. There can be little question that he is not alone in identifying the powers backing the bush administration as the single greatest threat to democracy our country faces.

[liberalcanuck]

48. Excellent response. You broke it down point-by-point - how

could one not think that there is something larger going on here? I'm usually not one for conspiracy theories but I do agree with Michael Moore's statement in F911 that there is a huge economic motive - a motive to keep things status quo.

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

52. What in the HELL are you talking about?

"When General wesley Clark (retired) told Richard Clarke to come public with what he knew, it was only to cause problems."

Huh? Clark told Clarke to go public?

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[H2O Man]

108. What's interesting is the "end" of the flat earth theory

ended in 1520, when Magellan's ships proved the earth was a sphere. (I knew that 7th grade social studies would prove important one day!) As Prouty notes, "certain educated" people in Europe already knew it was a sphere, but Magellan's voyage made it where those involved in commerce -- the "wealthy financial backers" -- became aware that there was not only an opportunity for global trading .... but also that if the earth was round, there was a finite amount of resources.

Proutey notes that in 1805, Thomas Malthus "postulated the idea that humanity is multiplying its numbers at a geometric rate while increasing its life-support capability at only an arithmatic rate. As a result, it has been universally concluded by the power elite that only a relatively few humans are destined to survive successfully ."

[11 Bravo]

22. Yeah, shit like that could never happen.

That's almost as far-fetched as a group of Supreme Court justices appointed by Republicans deciding to halt a recount, thereby installing a Republican as President of the United States.

[serryjw]

225. Stay around for a while...

you'll change your mind...Are you really of the school that we have a constitutional government by the people, for the people?

[Stephanie]

285. Not secret - right out in the open

http://www.newamericancentury.org/

The Project for the New American Century is a non-profit educational organization dedicated to a few fundamental propositions: that American leadership is good both for America and for the world; that such leadership requires military strength, diplomatic energy and commitment to moral principle; and that too few political leaders today are making the case for global leadership.

The Project for the New American Century intends, through issue briefs, research papers, advocacy journalism, conferences, and seminars, to explain what American world leadership entails. It will also strive to rally support for a vigorous and principled policy of American international involvement and to stimulate useful public debate on foreign and defense policy and America's role in the world.

William Kristol, Chairman

[truth2power]

56. "discussed in rooms where the real power lies.."

By "the real power" do you mean those who are trying to make changes for the better? Or....?

[H2O Man]

60. Both.

There is a struggle for power occuring at levels beyond what the media reports.

[truth2power]

81. Thanks for clarifying that. This is an extraordinary thread.

I would like to hope that these monsters are finally going down, but there are so many times people have said, "This is it!" I just don't know.

[H2O Man]

84. I think this is one of the better threads

in recent weeks. But I'm not entirely objective. (smile)

Now, in response to your post: these monsters will not go willingly. They lack the decency of even a Richard Nixon. Thus, the question becomes: how far are they willing to go to remain in power?

To answer that, we must first define what "power" they have? I tend to go by that definition used by Col. Prouty (the actual Mr. X from the movie JFK), which was a quote from the fabled "Report From Iron Mountain on the Possibility and Desirability of Peace," by Leonard Lewin, based on a study from Defense Secretary Robert McNamara in the summer of 1963:

"The organizing principle of any society is for war. The basic
authority of a modern state over its people resides in its
war powers..."

Now, examine this in the context of the war in Iraq, and the criminal incident of outting Plame .... remember the wonderful scene in JFK when Donald Sutherland's character (Man X) says the key is found in the question: "Why?" Because without any debate on the rest of that movie, that question remains the most important ..... WHY was JFK killed, as opposed to "how?", which tends to waste time ....

Plame was acting at the highest level of CI to investigate the ACTUAL TRAFFICKING OF WMD COMPONENTS. Yes, they were pissed at Ambassador Wilson .... but it goes far deeper than Niger & yellow-cake uranium.

I think it would be interesting to see what theories we can come up with on DU this afternoon ..... Why?

[Stephanie]

286. Report From Iron Mountain was a hoax

Sorry, I am with you on most of this but I believe Report From Iron Mountain has been thoroughly debunked as a hoax.

[LizW]

13. TERROR ALERT!! n/t

[Ugnmoose]

23. You've nailed it H2O

I think that both Bush and Cheney will be implicated, although I think the charge against Cheney will be more serious, since I suspect the whole thing eminated from his office. I do think that Chimpy knew about it, but since he does not make any decisions anyway, he would be viewed as a an accessory, plus he lied about his lack of knowledge, which is a separate offense.

Hear is the rub however. If both Bush and Cheney are implicated they cannot be indicted since they are exempt by virtue of their official positions. The only way they can be removed from office is through the impeachment process. Of course they could resign from office in the face of impeachment like Nixon did. If that were to happen then the office of President would fall to the Speaker of the House, Dennis Hastert who would finish out the term until the next election. The backup to him I believe would be the Pro Temp of the Senate (not sure who he is).

While there are many variables to this situation, the most likely one, assuming the charges rendered in the indictment are severe, would be a resignation. Anything short of this would be political suicide for the Repuke Party come November. Of course with the National Convention coming up in September this is bound to cause chaos in the Party ranks.

One point to remember is that once Bush and Cheney leave office they can be indicted and charged with criminal acts, not just for this, but for other actions they have taken while in office. If Kerry is elected in November (as we hope), there will be no pardons for anyone.

[H2O Man]

26. One thing:

Bush didn't know before the leak. He was made aware afterward of the cover-up to protect cheney and rove, plus two people just under them. One of the issues is that bush did not take part in a conversation .... he listened quietly.

Your points about indictments vs impeachment are absolutely on target. The amount of time between now and the election creates an interesting issue. As you obviously know, the chances of any impeachment issues being dealt with by this House & Senate before November are so remote as to be non-existant.

Yet important constituional issues are at play. Much like those issues that Arthur M. Schlesinger, Jr. dealt with in "The Imperial Presidency," (which concerned a growing trend, not only Nixon), the way that our nation deals with this will in large part define what role each of the three main branches of government will play in the coming decades.

[seemslikeadream]

32. Do you believe Cheney knows he will be indicted?

and is it going to be treason?

[Dookus]

33. No

Nobody will be charged with treason.

[seemslikeadream]

34. What's the charge then?

[Dookus]

35. Violation of

Section 421 of Chapter 15 of Section 50 of the US Code, namely the Intelligence Operatives Identity Act.

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/50/421.html

[seemslikeadream]

36. And that is not treason?

Just a violation, like speeding?

Oh and I do appreciate your thoughts

5 to 10 years? What about the deaths that have occured because of the leak?

[H2O Man]

38. It's distinct from the legal definition of treason.

It is, however (as the 1st bush said), a treasonous act. Also, it is a violation of a federal law ..... not to be confused with a violation of a state or local law, which is "lower" than a misdemeanor, and technically not a criminal act.

[seemslikeadream]

40. Is there a statute concerning deaths resulting from this violation

Penalities should be more severe, wouldn't you think?

and I very much appreciate your thoughts also, echoing TNOE

[H2O Man]

45. Very good question.

I will admit that I do not know the answer, and I'm not going to speculate or bluff. I'll ask someone who does know, and try to get back to you on this.

And thank you for your kindness. Likewise, I appreciate your thoughts on DU. This reminds me sometimes of the quality of conversations in a classroom .... except that we all are the teachers and the students from time to time. I always enjoy the give-and-take of the serious discussions on here ..... and this is certainly an issue worthy of a serious discussion!

[jmowreader]

51. IIRC this statute has death penalty implications

As well it should. The enemy has no problem shooting intelligence officers even in peacetime--google "Major Arthur D. Nicholson."

When I graduated from military intelligence school, a senior intelligence officer from the DC area came to be our guest speaker. He informed us that we were going to war. Intelligence personnel are always at war. And sometimes that war turns deadly.

There is a book entitled "Inside the Aquarium." The Aquarium was headquarters of Soviet military intelligence. (The author was a member of the GRU who defected when he found out the GRU was going to execute him for some damn thing.) Anyone who joined the GRU was given a battery of tests, then shown a film about what happens to GRU officers who fuck up bad enough. It's not pretty: The GRU had the strange theory that your brain holds information even after death, and if someone were to invent a machine that could extract the secrets from a dead brain they would learn more about the GRU than the GRU wanted learned. Therefore, all deceased GRU agents were cremated. If you fucked up badly enough, though, they didn't wait for you to die before they cremated you. The film was apparently pretty gruesome: they had this guy strapped to a stretcher waiting to be burned alive and had started to shove him in...when all of a sudden an honored GRU agent who had passed on after many years of loyal service arrived at the crematorium. They leaned the stretcher that had the live agent wired to it up against the wall so he could watch the loyal agent's body be consumed by flames. Then they got the disgraced agent down, put him back on the conveyor and fed him into the furnace...slowly, carefully, starting with his feet so he'd be sure to get the full effect of what they were doing to him.

This is what happens to you when someone in the White House blows the network you're operating in.

This is why we must execute the people who outed Valerie Plame. They have forfeited their right to live.

[seemslikeadream]

63. well I've been googling

The Nicholson Room
The Nicholson Room is one of the Center’s larger seminar rooms and is dedicated to the memory of Major Arthur D. Nicholson Jr. Nicholson, a member of a U.S. Army reconnaissance team, was fatally shot by a Soviet sentry in the former East Germany on March 24, 1985. Nicholson was a Foreign Area Officer, (FAO). He was part of the 14-member American Military Liaison Mission, which had been stationed in the East German town of Potsdam with a mandate to observe activities in what was once the Soviet zone of occupied Germany. The Nicholson room is used for FAO lectures, special briefings, promotion ceremonies and is also scheduled and used by other Marshall Center directorates for special lectures and briefings.
Statement on the Death of Major Arthur D. Nicholson, Jr., in the German Democratic Republic
March 25, 1985
All Americans are shocked and saddened to learn of the shooting death of Maj. Arthur D. Nicholson, a U.S. Army officer assigned to the U.S. military liaison mission which serves as a point of contact for our government with Soviet forces in East Germany. The precise details are being investigated by our Embassy in East Germany, and we do not have full information, but it is clear that this violence was unjustified. We have protested this unwarranted act of violence and have asked Soviet authorities for a full explanation.

The Soviets have expressed their regret over Major Nicholson's death. We have no further comment at this time.
http://www.reagan.utexas.edu/resource/speeches/1985/32585g.htm

Exchange With Reporters on the Death of Major Arthur D. Nicholson, Jr., in the German Democratic Republic
March 25, 1985
Q. Mr. President, the Soviets say that the soldier that they killed was a spy -- was taking pictures. Can you comment on that?

The President. This is a tragedy that never should have happened, and we challenge that. But we have already registered our protest for the tragic death of this man.

Q. Have you protested personally, or has it been done by the State Department, sir?

The President. No. What's done there is done in my name.

Q. Was he a spy, Mr. President?

The President. No. I know that we can't go on with this other subject, and I don't want to take it up here. We've got another subject in our minds. But I think if you'll check, you'll find that each country, the Soviets and the United States, are permitted under the terms of the Four Power Agreement -- we each have 14 military personnel. We have them in East Germany; they have them in West Germany. And what they can do and the areas that they can go into are all delineated, and he was doing nothing except what we're entitled to do under the agreements.

Q. Was he taking pictures?

The President. What?

Q. Was he taking pictures of military installations?

The President. I'm still waiting for a lot of details on this, but that is permitted in both areas.

Q. There seems to be a lack of outrage on your part, sir.

The President. A lack of outrage? No, you can't print what I'm thinking.

Q. Would something like that prevent a summit meeting?

The President. No, it would make me more anxious to go to one.

Q. Thank you.

Note: The exchange began at 1:46 p.m. in the Cabinet Room at the White House.
http://www.reagan.utexas.edu/resource/speeches/1985/32585c.htm

Trigger-happy' Soviet killed major, Kirkpatrick says
The Stars & Stripes
April 2, 1985
WASHINGTON (AP) -- The killing of a U.S. Army officer in East Germany was most likely the act of a "trigger-happy" Soviet soldier rather than the result of a new get-tough Soviet policy, outgoing U.N. Ambassador Jeane Kirkpatrick said Sunday.

"The Soviets have a tendency to shoot first and inquire later," Kirkpatrick said of the March 23 killing of Army Maj. Arthur D. Nicholson Jr. by a Soviet guard.

"I think that this is probably not a new policy on the part of the Soviet government . . . but the act of a single Soviet soldier who was probably trigger happy.

"If that's the case I think we would all hope that the Soviets would find it possible to apologize to the family and to the government," Kirkpatrick said on NBC's "Meet the Press" on her last day in office.

"We consider it a murder of an American officer serving in the line of duty; shot in cold blood," Kirkpatrick said. "We think there is no ambiguity about whether he had the right to be doing what he was doing."

Kirkpatrick, who resigned from the United Nations to return to teaching, will be replaced by Vernon Walters.

Secretary of State George Shultz and Soviet Ambassador Anatoly Dobrynin agreed on Saturday to a meeting of military commanders in Germany to discuss the Nicholson killing.

Nicholson was shot while on duty as a member of the U.S. Military Liaison Mission in East Germany. The Soviets said he was taking photographs in a restricted area, a charge the State Department denied.

Dobrynin said the diplomatic meeting would be aimed at "closing the entire incident." The State Department said the meeting would be aimed at ensuring there would be no repetition of the incident.
http://www.usmlm.org/home/nicholson/nickirkpat.htm
Shadows and Substance
On March 24, 1985, Major Arthur D. Nicholson Jr., a member of the U.S. Military Liaison Mission stationed in East Germany, was shot dead while attempting to photograph Soviet vehicles at a Soviet military facility in the German Democratic Republic (GDR). His earlier exploits as a member of the U.S. Military Liaison Mission included photographing the inside of a Soviet tank while visiting a Soviet tank shed during a New Year's celebration. This incident precipitated a temporary public relations tempest, but Ronald Reagan personally intervened to dampen its effect on his forthcoming first meeting with Mikhail Gorbachev that occurred later that year in 1985.<1> This was one of the few publicized incidents involving a little noticed--and little researched--Cold War agency: the Allied Military Liaison Missions that operated in Germany throughout the Cold War. Major Nicholson's death and its aftermath illustrate two major reasons for the durability of this Cold War institution. One, the Allies used these missions to obtain valuable intelligence from the other side of Germany. Two, because these Military Liaison Missions existed as part of wartime agreements between the victorious Allies, the two sides of the Cold War dealt with issues originating with these missions over the heads of all other actors, especially the East and West Germans. Historian Dorothee Mussgnug has ably chronicled the activities of these little-studied Cold War artifacts in her slim book, Alliierte Militaermissionen in Deutschland 1946-1950. In this book, Mußgnug reveals that, to paraphrase Dennis Bark and David Gress, from the shadow of such an agency one can discern much of the substance of the Cold War in Germany and its evolution.<2>

Mussgnug begins her book in a fashion wildly at variance from the usual German academic treatise. Instead of the laborious incantation of every book that could possibly relate to the topic, a practice that usually graces the first seventy-five pages most German histories, Mussgnug issues what appears to be a terse apologia. One of the vexations of the study of the recent past has been an overabundance of documentation. Sometimes, however, Cold War agencies were loath to leave documentation trails. This is a case of the latter. Aside from a few memoirs and indirect readings of disorganized U.S. and British diplomatic records, little is said directly of the Military Missions that operated in Germany.<3> East and West German archives supplement the story, but, owing to the juridical nature of these missions, they do not reveal much about their inner workings. Given the paucity of the available evidence, this reviewer was initially skeptical about the wisdom of Mussgnug's choice of research projects. Mussgnug, however, has pieced together an engaging examination of one of the Cold War's many oddities. In so doing she has made an important addition to the growing literature concerning Germany's circumscribed sovereignty during the Cold War.
http://216.239.51.104/search?q=cache:Uoau_ob82r0J:www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.cgi%3Fpath%3D209121078206630+%22Major+Arthur+D.+Nicholson+Jr.%22&hl=en

24 March:
USMLM Army officer Major Arthur D. Nicholson, Jr. is killed by a Russian soldier near Ludwigslust, East Germany. Maj Nicholson, Jr. and Army Sergeant Jessie Schatz were performing official liaison functions, as allowed in the Huebrner-Malinin Agreement, in a non-restricted area when he was shot in cold blood by a Soviet conscript. Senior Soviet officers debated their predicament in a cowardly fashion, and with their usual disregard for human life, at the site while disallowing anyone to provide first aid treatment to Major Nicholson. Frequent requests by Sergeant Schatz to provide medical treatment to his officer were repeatedly denied. Nick was promoted posthumously to the rank of Lieutenant Colonel, and is buried in Section 7-A of Arlington National Cemetery.
http://216.239.51.104/search?q=cache:OPZ6oD5xSpUJ:www.usmlm.org/home/coldwar/usmlmtimeline.htm+%22Major+Arthur+D.+Nicholson+Jr.%22&hl=en

[merh]

79. Let's not forget conspiracy or RICO violations

you could indict and list "unindicted co-conspirators", get some of the players now and come back and indict others later as the facts pan out. Grand juries can be extended beyond their terms by a court order and often are if the case is complicated. Also, other grand juries can be presented the info and issue superseding indictments adding charges and defendants.

I see a major RICO charge naming several all working on a enterprise to leak and cover up the leak and/or a conspiracy charge setting out the conspiracy to violate the intelligence act and cover it up.

Also, don't forget it is a federal crime to lie to a federal agent.
Obstruction of justice is also another count that could be involved.

The indictment will not be 1 count, it will be several - multiple - counts. The feds do not stop at one count, they add as many as possible to make sure something sticks (if not all).

And my favorite thing to keep in mind is how the French want to indict cheney and have for a couple of years now. (That is why they have fostered the hate for France - to hurt its credibility here.)
Maybe the Phlame indictments and then Frances' indictment, that would be neat.

[Dookus]

43. No it's not treason

Treason is one of the very few crimes actually outlined in the constitution, and it's almost NEVER prosecuted because of the difficulties presented.

Article III Section 3 says:

Clause 1: Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.


Nobody argues that Scooter Libby or Karl Rove or whoever has levied war against the United States. Even John Walker Lind wasn't charged with treason.

[KittyWampus]

62. Treason- Informing Chalabi That We Cracked Iranian Code?

how the HELL did he find that out anyway.

[Stephanie]

58. loving YOU!

"Intelligence Operatives Identity Act"

Please parse!

[TruthIsAll]

113. How do you know Bush didn't know before the leak?

You say:
Bush didn't know before the leak. He was made aware afterward of the cover-up to protect cheney and rove, plus two people just under them. One of the issues is that bush did not take part in a conversation .... he listened quietly.


How do you know he didn't know?

[H2O Man]

115. While bush is NOT

the dim-witted fool that many people believe, he is not a "hands-on" leader. It's a serious error to underestimate him .... many people did before the 2000 debates with Gore, thus allowing bush to easily exceed expectations ....

But he's not a well-disciplined politician. Again, he lacks the intensity of a JFK, Clinton, or even Nixon. It would be impossible to name a policy that he "created" ....

On the other hand, you have two micro-managers in cheney and rove. Lewis "Scooter" Libby could call Robert Novak without bush knowing -- and certainly without bush's okay ("plausible deniability" being a policy bush's dad perfected), but he could not/would not/did not drop dime on Plame on his own. It was rove's idea, and truth be known, cheney gave it a nod and a wink.

[iconoclastic cat]

119. Wait, wait, wait --- I'm confused.

If Bush and co. can't be impeached or indicted, doesn't that mean that Fitzgerald can't do a thing with whatever that grand jury gives him?

And what then? Does Fitzgerald just sit on it?

And why do you think the press is going to say the first peep on July 14th?

Thanks, H20! I'm a bit slow on the uptake today.

[merh]

85. I have to differ with those who say weedboy & his Gardener

cannot be indicted. They can be indicted, they cannot be removed from office except by impeachment.
Indictments are official charges -- findings by a grand jury that there is sufficient evidence to charge that a crime has been committed. They are not convictions, those happen after trial.

The charges that could be included in an indictment could be numerous, RICO or conspiracy - mail/wire fraud (depending on communications regarding the criminal act) - aiding and abetting -- obstruction of justice -- telling lies to federal agents investigating the matter (which is a separate crime from lying under oath).. The U.S. Codes are chalked full of possible counts to include. Feds rarely indict in a one count indictment, they indict on as many as possible, that way they figure that at least one will stick.

==========

"Can a sitting President be convicted of a criminal offense? Or, must he be impeached first, then tried?"
A. There is no easy answer to the question, as it is a matter of interpretation. I think most Constitutional scholars would agree that the notion of separation of powers prevents the President, and perhaps the Vice President, from being prosecuted in criminal court while in office. So for a conviction, the President would have to either be removed from office, or the trial would have to wait until his term expired. Where there is less certainty is if a sitting President can be indicted while in office. In 1999, there were rumors that President Clinton might be indicted by Independent Council Kenneth Starr while Clinton was still in office, but this never came about.

http://www.usconstitution.net/constfaq_a5.html

[burrowowl]

29. Kick

Important subject

[Disturbed]

41. Indictements after the election.

I am just guessing that there won't be any indictements until after the election because of the mess they would create. I admit that I am real ignorant about this process but am reading all I can about it. I do believe that this situation is a whole lot more serious than most seem to feel it is.

[Ugnmoose]

46. Indictments will come soon

I suspect that the Grand Jury wrapped up its term yesterday and rendered some indictments. Those indictments are sealed. They will be unsealed at such time as the Special Prosecutor is prepared to make them public. I suspect that the Prosecutor is just going through the cross the t's and dot the i's phase right now to make sure everything is done correctly. These will be very high profile indictments and everyone in the world will be scrutinizing them.

In case you are wondering how I can be so confident that indictments are coming - here is the tipoff. Bush and Cheney have hired private attorneys both of whom were present when they were interviewed. If they had nothing to hide and knew nothing they could just say so and be done with it. The lawyers were hired to advise them as to what they should and should not say so that they do not openly incriminate themselves. As John Dean said when the news broke about the hiring of the lawyers - this is highly unusual and indicates that they may well be implicated.

[wrate]

49. Will this actually happen?

It's been said that the indictments either go out tomorrow or who knows when. What truth is there in this? What certainty is there in the existence of the indictments? And if indictments aren't out by tomorrow then what is expected to happen next and when? Will top White House officials actually go down with this? Is this "chatter" going around in Washington D.C., what about the media, are they aware?

Too many questions, I know, but if any of this is true, then it certainly seems like a BIG THING (GARGANTUAN actually) and I cannot help but wonder if the teflon administration will once again get away with the crime and why the media has remained hermetic so far. For whatever it's worth, it seems very believable. It is more than obvious that the WH has shattered the reputation of the CIA (not to mention the outing) and Rumfsfeld the Pentagon. For once in my life I hope that either of this institutions/organizations gets even, and that they do it soon! I also wish this thread were 2000 posts long :) It is so interesting what you people are posting.

[Ugnmoose]

50. Make book on it

Just look at the facts:
This Grand Jury has been working continuously for almost six months
The investigation is being run by a career prosecutor from Chicago (not tied to the Washington insiders)
Ashcroft recused himself early on so that the Prosecutor is not accountable to him
Everyone in the Administration has been interviewed or put under oath before the Grand Jury (including Bush and Cheney).
Bush and Cheney have hired lawyers
And finally, a high profile Federal Judge is overseeing the Grand Jury. This has not happened since Judge Sirica oversaw the Watergate Grand Jury.

I would say everything here is on the up and up and by the book. This is the real deal. No covering up. And no stonewalling. This baby has lots of legs.

[burrowowl]

53. Welcome to DU, wrate!

:hi:

[lil-petunia]

73. After the 4th?

I can see him taking the time, making a list, checking it twice, then after the national holiday, - KaBOOM.

[Malva Zebrina]

54. In spite of all the evidence and all the hopes expressed her

as well as all the erudite posts, Bush et al, will get away with virtually anything they choose.

If Bush is gone, it does not mean he is eliminated. He will be immortalized by sheer money and the use of propaganda.

It is a fantasy to expect any of them, with all their millions upon millions of dollars of personal fortune will ever be brought to justice.

They, obviously,WILL NOT.

Cheney has gotten away with everything he has desired to keep secret from his own people and we know if he wants to keep it secret, there is something criminal most likely involved.

Does not matter. He is rich and connected. He ran and is still connected to big money. He will get away with everything criminal that he chooses

and what do we teach our children?

The same?

After these three years of posting and reading here and other places, as a late political bloomer, I am sorry to say it is my opinion that Bush and all connected to him will virtually get away with murder.

Not only that,but I am convinced they will go on to reap more millions of dollars through their political connections, even though we may elect a Kerry.

That is NO consolation.

And the Bush, spoiled twins, will go on in their elitist lifestyle.

There is NO WAY that this family will suffer at all, because,

well becuase they have millions upon millions of dollars that sets them, in spite of their ignorance and lack of intellect, apart from the common man.

They will prevail, because, they have the overwhelming money and , as goes along with that, the power. Over us all.

I think , at this point the entire system is irretrievably broken.

I also think, it can only be reversed by a revolution from the ranks.

This will not occur in my lifetime.

[Generator]

59. I fear all you say is true

and yet I pray it is not.

Also, I was thinking that nothing has changed since 1968. It's still the same fight, against unjust, ideological wars, against those that label disent unpatriotic,against all those that hold the power, and us few(many?) freaks, hippies, (now named the horrible invective liberal) feminists,gays and the rest.

We want a free and open society. We want seperation of church and state. We want a government that represents its people and is held accountable.

They want to tell us how to live, and what to believe, and to sacrifice our lives for lies and their ideological visions.

They still hold all the cards and we hold our breath that America is a dream that can still come true.

IF nothing happens with the Plame case, I fear we have lost again.

[shimmergal]

93. This may well be the way it goes down. Yet

as my daughter constantly reminds me, "Do you think the Bushies are the only family in politics with money and connections?"

There are the Kennedys. (Granted Arnold S fits in here very strangely, but he doesn't seem to be particularly friendly toward his so-called party elders Bush & Cheney et al.)

Teresa Heinz Kerry's fortune is estimated to be in the one billion range.

There's George Soros.

And even Bill Gates, despite some of the excesses of MSNBC and the antitrust suit filed in the Clinton Administration, doesn't seem to go along with the Bushie agenda. Didn't Al Gore join the Microsoft board a year or two ago?

It may be true that getting ALL the influence of money out of politics won't come to pass in our lifetimes--and maybe never. But this doesn't mean the gang who're running things now (and so evilly) will keep on doing so.

As for being protected by their wealth and power even after they're out of office--well, again, maybe. But maybe not. If the hybrid car really takes off her before Saudi Arabia blows, that could cut the injection of their money into *-related projects. Anyhow, with five prior heart attacks, how's Dick Cheney likely to react to being frog-marched, or even named as co-conspirator?

The twins can't thrive on their sole identity as spoiled daughters of a dumbass president forever. Bush women seem to be a couple of generations behind most of us in realizing that for their own mental balance, they need to be something beyond just perfect wives. How will they fare when the parents can no longer "protect" them from publicity?

So there's reason to hope.

[Qutzupalotl]

109. Gore joined the board of Apple.

Not quite as bad. :)

[birdbrain]

67. Perp Walk!!!!

W, Cheney and Rove frog-marched out of the Whitehouse in cuffs this afternoon at 5. President Hastert for 6 months.

All gods and goddesses, please hear my prayer....

[LeftHander]

70. Most Awesome...Bush is going to fall....

He may either fall hard as in resignation/impeachment or softly as the GOP tries to spin a Grand Jury Indictment as a political "witch hunt". They will certainly try to do so.

The big problem with that is that moderate republicans have started to separate themselves from the neocons and they will likely not gathe rthe support needed to pull off another "media" spin fest.

F911 raised the level of public awareness to Bush's disfuntional administration and clearly illustrates his arrogance, stupidity and incompetence.

Cheney's energy policy debacle, Iraq war lies, Mission Acocmplished, and Abu Ghraib,"go fuck yourself" has shown that Bush does nothing but lick the PNAC's red shitty ass...he let these guys dictate foriegn policy and Rumsfeld was running the state department from the defence department. Many times at odds with Colin Powell.

The public is waking up. Indictments WILL be the nail in the coffin of the Bush administration. He did not choose wisely. The PNAC played him like a cheap fiddle.

Given the gravity of the situation I suspect that indictments will be handed down sooner rather than later. It will be better to get the info out ASAP. Because if Bush, Cheney, RUmsfeld etal were breaking the law routinely and this is what they finally got them, then they need to be shown the wrath of American Justice as soon as possible to reapir the damage these dangerously stupid people have caused.

America and finally the CIA and the military, know that we are headed in the wrong direction. The agencies charged in most repects with intelligence and national security recognize that Bush and the neocons are bad for the security of this nation. They have abused power and disrupted the chain of command that helped make this country great. By creating the Office of Special Plans they sidstepped the military and CIA. They bypassed the geneva convention and our own laws to hold people with no challenge, torture and kill them.

They have divided this country and energized the most dangerous population segment the nationalistic, white, religious right to promote thier twisted vision upon local communities.

They are a festering rotten core that decays everything around them and they need to be excised in a very legal and public manner.

[lil-petunia]

72. hmmm. tell us how you really feel.

"They have divided this country and energized the most dangerous population segment the nationalistic, white, religious right to promote thier twisted vision upon local communities.

They are a festering rotten core that decays everything around them and they need to be excised in a very legal and public manner."


To think that they have managed to hoodwink many good and honest people. Their blatant lies are what really get my blood boiling.

[TWiley]

82. The media will flatly refuse to cover the story.

I believe the myth of the "liberal media" was debunked recently when bushies ad comparing the dems to Hitler received no criticism.

When moveon.org posted all the responses to their make a political ad campaign, and one referred to Hitler, the press went WILD. Everyone seemed to be demanding apologies.

In the local democratic newsletter published last Christmas, it cited evidence that the leak came (if i remember right) from old hallelujah f--k you cheney's office.

In spite of the lack of media coverage, i do hope those jerks go to jail. I would be absolutely thrilled if duh-bya go implicated in the end.

[H2O Man]

83. It's interesting to compare

this to Watergate .... for a long time, the story did not get much media attention. But at a certain point, it became impossible to ignore. We are dealing with a complex set of circumstances which, by no coincidence whatsoever, is closely related to the threat that "Watergate" quite literally posed to our form of government. The older folks on here will confirm this: there was a very real question just how far Nixon would go to remain in office? It's SO important for people not to underestimate the severe stress this put on the three branches of government. It marked the second time in that century when a large number of military leaders felt a president threatened the stability of the United States. We are there again today.

[Ripley]

86. But there are big differences today.

1. Congress being muzzled by anthrax.
2. Infotainment has the attention span of a flea. Remember the Abu Graib prison scandal? I never heard one peep about the really, really horrible things that happened there (rape, children, women).
3. I think people are genuinely scared for their lives and don't stand up to these thugs. Look at Tenet. Why did he leave?

Enjoy reading your posts. :hi:

[H2O Man]

89. Oh, you are so right!

We all remember that the senate had its "Golden Age" in the first half of the 1800s, with gifted leaders; but then, after the Civil War, it experienced the "Gilded Age," as Mark Twain noted. We have very few senators of substance today. And even as a 100% dedicated-to-this-election democrat, I realize that none of our parties' leaders dare talk as openly and honestly as we need.

The news media -- meaning the national media -- won't tell the truth. Even if the top reporters wanted to engage in that open and honest talk, they can't. My goodness, this fellow Michael Moore is coming very close .... VERY CLOSE .... to the truth .... and the media HAS TO DISTORT HIS OPEN AND HONEST MESSAGE!!!

We have a dozen great books that have been published in the past 12 months. Are they really discussed in an open and honest manner? No. They smear the messenger.

Yet we do have options. We can't go back to that Golden Age, or even to the Watergate era .... but we can see how a format like the DU can reach a potential far beyond a mere chat room .... and we are witnessing how MoveOn has mastered the art of power commercials. Is it possible that we combine the tactics of the civil rights movement with the media savy of the "new left" of the '60s ..... and take advantage of the news media ?

[hansolsen]

137. Interesting comparison to Watergate -- it didn't determine the election

As a veteran observor of the Watergate era, one possible parallel worries me.

The burglary occurred in June, of the election year (1972), if I remember right, and Repubs connected to Nixon were caught red-handed. The press was all over the story and the essential news was out -- Nixon authorized the burglary and covered it up -- that was clear, everybody knew it, and nobody cared because nobody could prove it. Nixon had plausible deniability on his side in the four months leading up to the election.

The Repub campaign managers were able to "kick the can" of the Watergate investigation down the road past the November election. Nixon won by a landslide even though the cat was out of the bag. Fast forward to 2004.

The Plame indictments may come down in July, but there might not be time to "prove" anything. The Bush administration will "kick the can" down the road past November and Bush may yet escape his fate.

The investigations will then have four years to unfold in their full glory. One could then hope for the election of 60 reliable Dem votes in the Senate in the 2006 midterms, and we may get Bush with impeachment or treason yet.

I am just worried that the "clock" may be against us between now and November, and you can bet Bush and the boys are relying on the "clock" to save their sorry asses.

My history comment for the day.

[H2O Man]

143. Very interesting.

I have a couple thoughts, and I hope you'll respond. I think that "Watergate" was a terrible experience for my father's generation. My siblings and I were of the younger generation, and were anti-war, anti-establishment, and strongly anti-Nixon. My father was a Kennedy democrat and had been a heck of a union leader. Both sides of my family had veterans in every American war that they were here for. I had relatives that were police officers, detectives, FBI, and MI. So people like my father were invested in the middle class American dream.

Watergate was a huge blow to my father. It showed him that the system he had so much faith in was corrupt and worse. It wasn't as simple as one president being a crook. It was exactly what Schlesinger described in his classic "The Imperial Presidency." It threatened the foundation of our federal system. And you are absolutely correct -- enough evidence was available that it was clear the White House was directly involved .... even the name CREEP (Committee to Re-Elect the President, for the younger readers) was so bold and obvious.

But Americans ignored it, much like individuals ignore health problems. How apt that Attorney John Dean warned Nixon about the cancer growing on the presidency. I find Dean's book "Worse Than Watergate" to be one of the most valuable today.

And that's why I hope you will add more on this. I think the generation that came of age in the Vietnam War/Watergate era have an insight that needs to be shared here. It's too easy to overlook how dangerous that crisis was: most nations' governments DO NOT survive a Watergate. A good argument could be made that our form of democracy did not come out of it fully intact. We should never take something as valuable as our county's Constitution for granted.

Thanks for your comments.

[TWiley]

170. Eventually, there was submission

to the democratic process in the end. The truth about Watergate had to be dragged out of the individuals involved, but there was widespread outrage, and Nixon's resignation.

David Wise wrote a book on this topic called "The American Police State". He discussed the intrusiveness of government agency's before and after Watergate. He pointed out (in 1976?) that America had more domestic police than any other nation in the world.

During the late 60's and early 70's, the Michigan State Police formed a secret unit called "the red squad". The criminal element they investigated were "anti-war protesters" Their victims suffered mail seizures, phone taps, smear campaigns, loss of jobs, false arrests, credit problems, and general harassment because they were NOT Republican.

Today we have a far more scary outfit. The department of Homeland Defense. It has already been used as a partisan weapon against the democrats, and this agencies creators are far-right extremists who's philosophy is "You are either for us or against us". "Get behind our troops or in front of them" "Love America or leave it"

Public outrage is the only effective political tool to keep these agencies in check.

Today, the media has been gerrymandered, open threats are issued from the White House against news agencies or people, domestic or foreign, with no criticism from the public.

The current administration has no experience with the democratic process and submits to nothing, not even the vote. They are dictatorial, dishonest, and will stop at nothing to achieve their agenda.

We do live in dangerous times

[H2O Man]

173. Yes -- 1976.....

The American Police State is an important book. (I bought it two years ago when a local library had a sale on books from their "stacks" in the basement! Heck of a deal for 25 cents!) Thank you for bringing it up .... because it is a perfect example of the threats to democracy that administrations "under pressure" pose.

[KoKo]

196. Nixon should not have been pardoned. The pardon allowed

those who didn't understand how devasting Watergate was to our political system and democracy to rehabilitate him late in his life, and didn't thoroughly call into dispute the thugs he surrounded himself with.

I knew many people at the time, who thought Watergate was "overblown" and a political trick by the Democrats. They liked Nixon, and you couldn't convince them otherwise.

Look at where Gordon Liddy and many of the other Burglars and helpers are today. Right back in the seat of power in the media or involved with the RW through religion.

The Repugs have "paid back" for Nixon by trying to destroy every Democratic Presidency since. And, they almost succeeded with Clinton.

But, they needed to be rooted out then and perhaps some of the cast of characters we are dealing with now, would not have gained strength. This needs to happen with this mis-Administration. Or, they will be back in 4 years or 8 years or however long it takes for them to rehabilitate themselves.

[scarletwoman]

182. The myth of "surviving Watergate" -- it was ALSO a coup!

I wish more people would understand, the downfall of Nixon did NOT represent some sort of triumph of our "democracy" over dirty political deeds, it was actually the triumph of the BFEE/Octopus cabal over a front man who had become inconvenient. What it did was solidify the power of the same shadowy group who had arranged the JFK assassination.

If "they" had not wanted Nixon to fall, the coverup would have been successful, there would have been no "deep throat", no hearings, no "crisis". Nixon at that time was becoming too much of a loose cannon; irrational, paranoid, drinking too much, too unpredictable -- in short, a possibly dangerous liability to the players in the shadows. The decision was made to cut him loose and leave him "twisting in the wind".

The removal of Nixon was NOT a victory for US, it was a victory for THEM. Understand THAT, and the eventual movement to the forefront by the Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld, etc. cabal from Reagan (the successfully pliant frontman) on takes on a whole new light -- the shape and pattern of the shadow powers becomes much more clear.

sw

[H2O Man]

185. Very true....

It is SO IMPORTANT for you, and others, to point this type of thing out. I do not want to sound like Chicken Little when I say that our system is far more fragile than most people suspect. We can not really understand what is happening today if we are looking from a viewpoint that is fake and phoney.

Here's some food for thought .... not directed at you, per say, as you very obviously are familiar with this .... but concerning those dark forces that "removed" JFK .... and I am convinced are the exact same forces that removed Nixon, and that cut the legs out from under the Clinton presidency ..... there are many people who assume that both LBJ and Nixon were PART of these forces .... I disagree, because although they fronted for them, as puppets and politicians do, they could not stand up to the pressure ..... and isn't it odd that two fairly strong individuals (and LBJ and Nixon were indeed very strong individuals) both had severe emotional "break-downs" ? I'm not implying that the break-downs were induced by a Dr. Strangelove .... just that both of these very bright men knew they had danced with the devil.....

Yes, you have hit the nail on the head. Look who gained by Watergate.

[scarletwoman]

187. I see it the very same way.

Johnson and Nixon were not among the prime movers, they probably both thought they were in a position to successfully manipulate the shadow powers, but found out that they themselves were the ones being manipulated.

"Danced with the devil" is indeed a highly apt metaphor.

From Eisenhower's warning about the "military-industrial complex, the rise of the national security state under Truman, through the JFK assassination, Watergate, Reagan-Iran/Contra, BCCI, etc.; it's all the same "devil". It's no longer even really hidden -- no need anymore with level of control it has now achieved. Every institution of government has been compromised and subverted to one degree or another.

Meanwhile, the American public insulates itself from reality through collective denial and deliberate ignorance. We are in SUCH deep trouble...

sw

[KoKo]

199. And leads to the question. Did Clinton know? Before he became

President. Did he know? And if he didn't know, wouldn't that explain what happened to his Presidency? Why would they have gone after him to the extent they did, if he knew and was their tool?

That's a puzzle to me. I like to believe, he didn't know.

[scarletwoman]

207. It's very complicated, but I have a sort of half-baked theory

Some while back, I dug around a bit in the Mena, Arkansas stuff -- the CIA drug-running flights and all that. I think it's highly probable that as governor of Arkansas, Bill DID know about it and cooperated to one degree or another.

Now, bear in mind that the drug-running arm of the CIA is part of the BFEE purview, and connects with their Latin American oil/Enron/Unocal operations -- why do you suppose that Clinton signed off on the odious "Plan Colombia"? Through the Mena operation, Clinton had gotten entangled with the BFEE, and so had favors to deliver.

Sometime last year, there was an excellent DU thread around the speculation that the BFEE *allowed* Clinton to get the presidency, in part to bring up the economy -- more money generated for the elites to steal. (If I have time, I'll try searching for it -- I think it was on the "old" DU, however.)

You might have noticed that Clinton and the Bushes maintain a certain amount of public cordiality. They may despise each other, but there is a (past?) business relationship and certain secrets that must be maintained.

So, Clinton is "allowed" to take office, with the understanding that certain agendas must be fulfilled. It may be that the agreement was only for ONE term, although the GOP putting up the placid and ineffective Bob Dole as the challenger for Clinton's second term could be seen as an indication that he was given the go-ahead for 2 terms.

So why all the GOP attacks, you ask? They served several purposes. First, they were a constant check on what Clinton -- whom I believe is actually a sincere, if badly compromised, believer in public service (unlike the BFEE, who are ONLY out for personal power) -- could actually accomplish outside of what the BFEE *wanted* him to do.

A constant reminder, as it were, to not wander too far off the reservation.

Second, they served to alienate a huge percentage of the populace from politics -- an ideal situation for setting the stage for the future full-bore BFEE re-entry into public power. Convince the populace that lying and corruption is rampant, so that when the REAL lying and corruption gets going, the people are either desensitized, apathetic, or eager to turn to a "savior".

Thirdly, as a distraction from the real manuevering of wealth to the elites, and the substantial damage being done to the social contract, the witch hunt was the perfect sleight of hand. How many of us were so caught up in defending Clinton from the VRWC, that we neglected to pay sufficient attention to the vastly accelerated progression of corporate fuedalism taking hold all around us?

The BFEE allowed their (Scaife, etc.) dogs to run loose, but the dogs themselves were not really privy to the inner workings of BFEE operations. The BFEE actually kept their deal with Clinton, but they didn't much mind that certain of their minions, acting independently, made Clinton's tenure damn uncomfortable.

And if the impeachment had succeeded? Well, it would have just meant that the BFEE wouldn't have had to wait until 2000, Clinton had by then pretty much done what they wanted doing -- in any case, they were busy getting prepared for taking over the next level of control of the U.S. government, whether sooner or later.

This is all my speculation, of course -- it's just what seems most plausible to me, given all the other information. The Unified Field Theory of the BFEE/Octopus, as it were...

sw

[KoKo]

212. Sadly, I think you're correct. NAFTA soured me on him in the

beginning and the Stock Market Bubble which could have been controlled with stiffer regulation. I do remember that he did fight and veto liberalizing the SEC Rules (which allowed the worst of the bubble to expand) but his veto was overturned.

I do feel he was a better person with more humanity that the Octopus, but given the tenatacles one has to assume that we could never have had a Democratic Presidency after JFK which wouldn't have been maneuvered and controlled in some fashion or the other by them.

It's when the "compromise" got out of balance with Shrub (perhaps because of his laziness and his defying of his father because of psych. problems) that the Octopus became exposed. The "over-reach" of power exposed their vulnerabilities.

But, while one side of me understands all of this and agrees with the darkest views expressed on this thread, there's a side of me that still holds that people are very complicated and I want to believe in some good there, no matter how misguided or how corrupt a person is, that there's some point at which they will not totally succumb to their darkest instincts.

I've also noticed both his and Hillary's defference to the Bush's. It's possible the Octopus held back from Impeachment and he owes them.
Although I believe it was the American People who held them back on that one.

Another odd thing is that MSNBC as a new Cable Network was the only media spending hours defending him. Remember that "whore Geraldo" and others who were the only people with discussion shows who had Clinton supporters on. Then when Shrub is installed Roger Ailes creates FOX and brings some of those very same people who defended Clinton into his stable where they spew propaganda supporting Shrub 24/7. Why the turn? Or, were they part of the Octopus who created a defense of Clinton for there own purposes?

Monica. Was she a plant? Placed to tempt a vulnerable man? So, many questions about this man. But, I have to say I think what you say in your post and the Arkansas connection, are something one has to keep in mind.

[scarletwoman]

218. I've never doubted that Clinton had some good in him.

I just think he was seriously compromised by forces more powerful than he.

As to what you say about the cable coverage during the Monica thing, I've never had cable, so I have no insights or theories to offer on that score.

Monica a "plant"? It's possible, I suppose, but I'm not sure if it's particularily important, one way or another. I'm more inclined to think that she was just an opportunitistic bimbette.

sw

[hansolsen]

234. Addtional thoughts on "Watergate" era lessons

H2O Man

One additional thing that jumps out at me, is that today's young reporters covering Bush and Iraq are working under a great disadvantage the Watergate reporters didn't have. Here is what I see.

Woodward and Bernstein went after Nixon and the Watergate Burglers in the finest tradition of investigative journalism, but their stories never would have gone far without two things.

First they had an Executive Editor at the Washington Post who saw the dark side of Milhouse, and gave the reporters their freedom to work -- he gave them rope and encouragement and backing. He mentored them, coached them and stood behind them. He also put them on the front page.

Second was Catherine Graham, the Publisher of the WP. She also backed them, gave them every resource they needed and imbued what they did with her personal integrity, which was immense.

The rest is history.

Now fast forward to 2002. The nation is still in shock from 9/11, and the two great newspapers of the land suddenly don't want any more terrorist attacks their own backyards in New York and Washington. They are receptive to the Bush plans for aggressive war in the middle east -- to send a message that Islamic fundamentalists won't be tolerated making any more terrorist attacks here or anywhere else. When Shrub says Saddam Hussein has WMD up the old wazoo, and needs to be taken out, the editors and publishers of the Washington Post spred rose petals in his path and man the trumpets before his every speech. Over at the NYT, Sulzberger Jr. unleashes his friend Judith Miller to find WMD under every palm tree in Iraq. It turns out the Times is for the war too, except they want Shrub to get more international support before he goes in.

It doesn't help that many of the Iraq war planners and dreamers, in the administration, in the Think Tanks, and the Congress, and in the corner offices at the WP and NYT, hold a special place in their hearts for Israel, and believe that taking out Saddam and turning Iraq into a democracy will be good for Israel in the short run and gurantee that their plans for a "Greater Israel" (meaning expanded settlements and control of Jerusalem) will come to pass in the long run. (it is unclear, of course, if the Grand Poobahs at the WP and NYT still believe that, and that uncertainty is itself a problem)

In this climate, any intrepid reporter at the Washington Post or New York Times who dared to say that the Emperor had no clothes, was destined to appear on page 14, and be disinvited to all the best parties -- cold shoulders and icy stares all round, I'll bet. Now, I will admit, this is mostly speculation on my part -- the cold shoulders part -- but I am willing to take bets.

[hansolsen]

245. Nixon wasn't impeached for Watergate, but for losing Vietnam

H2OMan

One of my pet theories over the years is that Watergate never would have brought Nixon down if the U.S. had been winning the war in Vietnam (called the Vietnam "Conflict" because "war" was never declared).

Watergate really was just a "third rate burglary", and while the cover-up was horrendus, it never would have come to that if the people and the press didn't hate Nixon allready, just for being who he was, and more importantly, for being the first U.S President to lose a major war. Earlier, of course, the mess in Vietnam had caused LBJ to forgo standing for re-election, because he feared he would lose. The people gave Nixon a chance to straighten things out, but by 1972 we had withdrawn our troops and turned the fighting over to the South Vietnamese, but it was clear the North Vietnamese were winning the war. And the country didn't like it. All thoses dead soldiers for nothing.

The lesson for today is this -- if Shrub can postpone any final reconning on Iraq until after the election, he can avoid blame for losing the war. In that climate the various investigations (Plame, Abu Ghraeb, etc) will probably not come to much. If Bush wins in Iraq, he will weather any other storms, sad to say, and if he loses in Iraq, a sea of angels couldn't save his scrawny ass.

[H2O Man]

251. "Strategy of defeat" by Adm. U.S.G. Sharp

featured an introduction by Hansen W. Baldwin, which read in part:

"...for this first defeat in American history -- the historical blame must be placed squarely where it belongs -- not primarily upon our military leaders whose continuous and protracted frustrations burst forth from these pages -- but upon the very top civilian policy makers in Washington, specifically the Commander in Chief."

(Funny how this fits today, too, isn't it?)

[hansolsen]

258. Yes, and that defeat in Iraq is palpable but deniable

And there will probably be no definitive judgement rendered between now and election day.

If Kerry wins in November, the Repubs will always claim the Dems lost Iraq.

If Bush wins, all hell will break lose in the middle east, and at least some of the world wide hatred and disgust directed at George Bush will be redirected at the American peole who will have re-elected him, knowing every thing we now know.

God help us.

[PATRICK]

87. Depends on who is in charge of the process

If it a process that is fair Bush will game something against it. If it is coordinated against Bush it will come at a timely moment in conjunction with other compelling and forceable events(the CIA scenario we have seen so far this year).

If the WH team influences the process in any way it will be slow in coming or exculpatory of Bush as the immediate 911 scrutiny absolved everyone of blame. Therefore minimizing its impact before 11/2.

If terrorism strikes the US hard watch these things rush through under the radar and vanish in the night.

But really, I don't personally know who is in charge of the process, how connected or free from influence they are OR what the inescapable legal implications are. The nature of the charges would have to be on the level of high crimes against Bush or Cheney personally to decisively hit the White House in such a way as to take him down before the election. lesser things or people(even Rove)would cripple these guys even more. Ordinarily that would be good for the Dems but who doesn't believe the continuing loss of life and the danger of the Occupiers in DC is really a distant second best?

Anything less than a clearly impeachable offense is just one more part of the rotten pie, impossible to focus on in itself and not of much contrast to diehard Bush supporters who don't mind the worst of the Plame charges anyway.

[shraby]

95. Let's see..... we have

concerning the Plame outing:
Valerie Plame undercover to track nuke stuff.
Yellowcake from Niger..debunked.
Insistence that it's true.
Kahn from Pakistan heading a ring for selling nuke stuff.
Kahn pardoned.
U.S. doesn't care if he's pardoned.
U.S. went to war with country that had no WMD's.
By going to war with Iraq, nuke proliferation investigations put on hold.

Anything else?

[seemslikeadream]

96. Put this sentence in between the Khans

Khan Laboratories investigation had been effectively put on hold.





If this planet blows to pieces this year, thank Khan Labs' and Bush

You may never have heard of Khan Laboratories, but if this planet blows to pieces this year, it will be thanks to Khan Labs' creating nuclear warheads for Pakistan's military. Because investigators had been tracking the funding for this so-called "Islamic Bomb" back to Saudi Arabia, under Bush security restrictions, the inquiry was stymied. (The restrictions were lifted, the agent told me without a hint of dark humor, on September 11.)

Noam Chomsky, who read the story on page one of the Times of India, has wondered, "Why wasn't it all over US papers?

.. A top-level CIA operative who spoke with us on condition of strictest anonymity said that, after Bush took office, "There was a major policy shift" at the National Security Agency. Investigators were ordered to "back off" from any inquiries into Saudi Arabian financing of terror networks, especially if they touched on Saudi royals and their retainers. That put the Bin Ladens, a family worth a reported $12 billion and a virtual arm of the Saudi royal household, off limits for investigation.

I probed our CIA contact for specifics of investigations that were hampered by orders to back off of the Saudis. He told us that Khan Laboratories investigation had been effectively put on hold.
http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=312&row=0

[seemslikeadream]

97. Could you please grab one sentence from this?

Proof of Trillions in Bu$h Family Business With Saddam


Proof of Trillions in Bu$h Family Business With Saddam 1989-1991
author: Gordon Thomas
The Bush family were doing business with Saddam Hussein from 1989 up to months before the outbreak of the first Gulf War.

In a document obtained by the respected London-based International Currency Review, it was claimed that after a year long investigation, it had uncovered evidence “of the mobilisation of trillions of dollars in 1989-91”. The document names a number of banks it alleges were “supervised by the Bush Sr White House” in the transactions


Business links – involving “the mobilisation of trillions of dollars” – by President Bush’s father and his brother Neil, were under investigation by America’s top spy catcher, Paul Redmond, when he resigned.

A well-placed Washington intelligence source said that Redmond quit after a White House meeting with Vice President Dick Cheney and Attorney General John Ashcroft.

They are known as “The Enforcers” – ensuring there is no taint on the reputation of the increasingly embattled President with the failure to find any weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

Already, said the Washington source, the two men have ensured Bush distances himself from Tony Blair’s claims that the weapons will be found.

But equally Downing Street will want to stay clear of the allegation that the President’s family were doing business with Saddam from 1989 up to months before the outbreak of the first Gulf War.

In a document obtained by the respected London-based International Currency Review, it was claimed that after a year long investigation, it had uncovered evidence “of the mobilisation of trillions of dollars in 1989-91”.

The document names a number of banks it alleges were “supervised by the Bush Sr White House” in the alleged transactions.

The banks identified in the document include the British Royal Family bankers, Coutts; Morgan Guaranty Trust and Chase Manhattan, New York; Banco Exterior de Espana, Spain; First International Bank of Denver in the United States.

“What will cause astonishment is the provenance of some of these compromising documents. For many months we considered carefully whether they could be forgeries, and whether it could be credible that an intelligence organisation or a private gang of blackmailers and counterfeiters could replicate the precise behaviour of an obsolescent IBM computer to produce output identical to those images shown with this analysis. We checked these possibilities repeatedly with experts and also consulted banking sources to see whether these documents could possibly be fraudulent. The outcome of these investigations was unequivocally that the documentation is genuine.”

http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/07/268817.shtml

Spies, Lies & Sneaky Guys: Espionage and Intelligence"

Paul Redmond is an internationally recognized authority on security, counterespionage, and counterintelligence, with hands-on experience throughout Western and Eastern Europe, Southeast Asia and the Former Soviet Union.

Mr. Redmond is a member of the Technical Advisory Group to the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, and a Consultant to the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence. He serves on the Steering Committee of the Crime and Loss Prevention Institute, Northeastern University College of Criminal Justice.

During his thirty-year tenure at the Central Intelligence Agency, Mr. Redmond managed the CIA’s extensive counterintelligence organization, and counseled three succeeding Directors of Central Intelligence on highly sensitive counterintelligence matters, including technical and personnel security concerns. He established and built productive working relationships with NATO and with foreign intelligence and security chiefs worldwide. Redmond oversaw the counterintelligence aspects of personnel, computer systems and physical plants in the U.S. and abroad, and supervised the support provided by the CIA to the private sector relating to commercial counterespionage. He was instrumental in the apprehension of Aldrich Ames.
http://www.sabatiergroup.com/redmond.html



Paul Redmond, who headed counterintelligence for the CIA, was appointed to the U.S. Department of Homeland Security after meeting UD students in the Global Agenda series.

http://www.udel.edu/global/agenda/2003/gallery.html







The CIA and Its Secret Experiments

with MKULTRA & Germ Warfare.

America’s Great State Secret

by

Gordon Thomas

(Author of Seeds of Fire: China And The Story Behind The Attack On America)

MINDFIELD

· Sensational never-seen-before documents from inside the White House, CIA and other agencies.

· Reveals the documentary evidence that links US Vice-President Dick Cheney and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld to the cover-up of the death of top CIA scientist, Frank Olson.



· Explains how the CIA financed a ruthless and systematic assault of the human psyche – using a British-born psychiatrist to spearhead the assault.

· Names other world renowned physicians who were involved in the most sinister research programme ever created by any United States government – and its secret partner – the British government.

· Reveals how a woman was programmed to become a CIA assassin.

· Describes how a CIA chemist was murdered by his own colleagues after he had turned to the one man he thought he could trust – a London psychiatrist engaged in similar work.

· Reveals how “expendables” – the CIA generic name for those selected for killing – were secretly murdered after they had been experimented on in Europe.

· Describes how the CIA used prostitutes and mental patients in other experiments.

· Explains how the CIA deliberately pioneered the drug culture whose effects are still with us.

· Reveals how the CIA agent selected to monitor the experiments eventually died at the hands of a physician steeped in the methods perfected by the CIA.

· Identifies how the CIA experiments are still carried on in secret establishments in Israel and China.

· Uncovers CIA terminal experiments on Vietcong prisoners in Vietnam.

· Publishes the CIA Manual of Assassination – a shocking document describing how to commit state-approved murder.

“Meticulously researched, Mindfield is a deeply disturbing story of hideous government experiments using drugs and behavioural modification. Teaching hospitals on both sides of the Atlantic were used. Many of the doctors who performed those experiments remain in high office today and still conduct those experiments with impunity. Mindfield is a terrifying warning how easy it is for elected governments to sanction secret experiments to control human behaviour. Gordon Thomas has meticulously taken us from incredulity to awareness of the Machiavellian lengths our governments go to in our unsuspecting name. This remarkable book is essential reading for all those in a trusted role to care for people. In every sense it is an outstanding text that reveals the darker side of medicine.”

Professor Anne White
M.C.S.P. Bsc M.D. F.R.C.P.A.
Assistant Clinical Professor of Medicine
Department of Psychiatry
McMaster University, Canada

http://www.gordonthomas.ie/mindfield.htm

[H2O Man]

98. Our good friend shraby!!!

Look what you started! We all owe you - if not a dept - at least a sincere "thank you."

Again, we have Donald Sutherland (aka Man X) sitting on the park bench in Washington, DC. You have the "how" .... in a wonderful order...although there are significant bits and pieces missing, of course .....

Much of the message of "Farewell America" is centered on the idea that the oil industry is actually substantially larger than the military industrial complex .... today, the "industrial" has expanded to include a high-tech component barely imagined when that book was authored ... but we can still agree that oil runs all of the machines that produce the weapons, the computers, and all of the wealth that a very limited number of individuals are hoarding.

North Korea appears to now have WMD, and they certainly are trading partners with serious terrorist groups. But we did not invade them. Iraq's weapons systems had been bankrupt since the 1st Gulf War. But their potential oil revenue still made them a force in that area of the globe.

Now: Man X is asking why did the bush administration need to expose Plame - thus destroying what was likely the single most urgent investigation of CI/MI agencies, shortly after invading Iraq?

[Ugnmoose]

100. This is the $64 million dollar question

There has to be more to the Plame outing than just plain retribution. I think we will all find out once the indictments fly. At least I hope so.

[shraby]

102. Thank you H20

Since the 1970s when the oil companies "took over" our economy I have maintained that we were better off when the car companies ran it. Since then, it has just gotten worse and worse as their tentacles widened. Now I don't know if it will be possible to extract them.

Will the Plame game help? That depends on how serious it's conducted. I feel sure after thinking on it that Bush probably knew who leaked the name, but not much more than that. If he is as dense as portrayed, he wouldn't be trusted with anything more. He is still culpable because he knew who leaked. I'm sure there will be a lot of stonewalling and taking the "fifth". There may not be much of a paper trail because of 1. shredding and 2. they are probably smart enough to not make a paper trail.

Maybe enough culprits will get convicted to break up this danger to our country for a long time...but we will have to stay ever more vigilant in the future.

[shraby]

103. One more question...

why Iraq first?
We know it was extremely weak almost like shooting fish in a barrel.
They knew there was no WMD.
We know it has a lot of oil, but if neighboring countries have nukes, that puts any efforts to keep the oil in a tenuous situation.

Rational thinking would be to disarm those who have nukes first. Something isn't right here. Any ideas?

Possibly the fact that Iraq was first has a lot to do with everything.

edited to add idea.

[H2O Man]

111. Good question.....

which should lead to plenty more discussion.

We know for sure we did not invade Iraq because of WMDs. And we can be pretty sure it was not entirely because of the Iraqi oil supply. It has certainly been a central goal of the cheney/Halliburton forces to have a "stable" nucleus for future operations. Look at the enormous embassy there. I don't think we have any idea how much money has been diverted from the war effort to these other operations. The money and the power -- meaning the ability to do whatever they want -- these are the reasons we went into Iraq.

I also believe that the unstable psychological make-up of the president, including his relationship with his father, played a role in his decision to invade. But there was more involved as far as the financial "investment" in this war.

[StandUpGuy]

214. Really ?

After everything you say about the puppet nature of Bush and the office of the President, do you really believe that the mental condition of bush and his relationship with his father had anything to do with invading Iraq ?

I have agreed with everything you have posted until this.

I've watched videos of BushJr from the 80's to present. It is much like watching Homer Simpson gradually get dumber as the seasons proceeded.

Bush is no fool he is acting the fool.

To me it is 100% clear that everything can be traced to his DADDY BUSH SR.

If that is what you meant by his relationship to his father then I agree, but the rest of this statement implies the decision to invade Afghanistan, Iraq and the next, lies with Bush Jr.

What about the Iraq selling oil in dollars/euros theories?

[merh]

118. My thinking on why Iraq is because they want to move

our bases out of Saudi Arabia to Iraq and maintain their presence in the region, yet make things easier for the Saudis in charge. The biggest complaint that Saudis have to deal with is our presence in the country. Well heck, Iraq is as you say, "like shooting fish in a barrell" and it has the room for 14 bases, so what the heck. Invade, occupy, build the bases and maintain US presence in the region while making the Saudi royals look good.
(IMHO)

[alfredo]

121. Many of the big oil fields in Saudi Arabia are

in the east, not that far from Iraq. I could see bush wanting to seize the northeast of SA. Not only would it give him access to the oil fields, it would allow for more control of the Persian gulf. We already have central command in Qatar.


You can guess what the black blobs are.

[merh]

122. Uhhh, oil fields?

Geeze, that is some map, thanks for sharing. If * removes our troops from SA, but keeps them in the region, its a win/win situation. He makes the royals happy, they make their people happy because the nasty westerns left, and bushco keeps the troops in place to keep an eye on the SA royals and to protect them from invaders.

It makes sense. The 14 bases make sense.

[alfredo]

129. sooner or later, royal families lose power. It is time for the

House of Saud to fall. You can either find a way to prevent it, or you can exploit it.

I seem to remember the PNAC guys wanting to destabilize the mideast, then capitalizing on that chaos. They wanted to upset the status quo.

[H2O Man]

131. Go a step farther.....

Actually, you did when you said the "Saudis in charge" .... take that beyond the "royals" .... think about this quote from R. Buckminister Fuller wrote in "Critical Path" :

"In our comprehensive reviewing of published, academically accepted history we continually explore for the invisible power structure behind the visible kings, prime ministers, czars, emporers, presidents, and other official head men, as well as for the underlying, hidden causes of individual wars and the long, drawn-out campaigns not disclosed by the widely published and popularly accepted causes of these wars." (New York: St. Martin's Press; 1981)

Now, merh .... what large & powerful Saudi family, connected to both the royals and the bushes, that have several members who strongly resent the US military being in the Holy Land?

[merh]

133. would that be the Bin Laden family?

OBL has for years raged about the westerners having holdings in the holy land. His contempt for the US stems from his resentment of our bases.

[H2O Man]

136. Right.

Think of the implications of that! This is why the White House is so upset that Michael Moore is coming out with this movie. It reveals to those who don't read DU etc the unholy connections between the Saudi royals, the bin Ladens, and the bush clan. This movie is being attacked much in the manner of "JFK" a decade ago .... books, including Moore's, are bad enough. (Moore tempered his last book with a silly call to elect Oprah president. While I admire her, this was hardly a serious proposition. The first 2/3rds of the book were hard-hitting, then it went soft.) But movies reach a wider audience. And what are people going to think when it occures to them that Saudi families have the power to dictate American policy?

[merh]

164. Some will have trouble believing it, they will not want to accept the

fact that they have been duped. Others will come out in force to be sure that their votes matter and that * does not win again. I just hope that the admin is so cocky that it will believe that no one will believe it. Cocky for them is good for the country, if cocky they will not do anything desparate. If they are desparate, then lord knows what this group is capable of doing. In my community barely anyone has heard of F911 and I don't live in a rural area. It is one of the largest metropolian areas in the state. We are a GOP state and all local media is conservative and people trust Fox news. I do understand why the admin is attacking Moore. The information he is sharing is lethal and if enough people see it the impact will be felt.

[KoKo]

198. And, that Moore was alllowed to release this movie at all does

seem to lead one to conclude that there are forces at play here who want this exposed who are very powerful.

My first thought after seeing the movie was "How did Moore manage to pull this off?" My husband said the same thing. Given the suppression of truth in the Administration and their success, it has to mean the Moore movie was allowed to go forward and release it because it was time for one of the BIG truths to come out. And, that Moore added footage so close to the release date was a surprise to me. He had recent clips of the 9/11 Hearings with the Pickering interview. That's unusual for a film maker to do add scenes right down to the wire of release date.

[seemslikeadream]

104. Remember those aluminum tubes?

Those were the tubes imported by Iraq which were so precisely and finely manufactured that they could only have been intended for use in gas centrifuges to enrich uranium. That was the story at least -- the tubes that launched a thousand ships in the tragicomic Dubyiad.

There were always doubters, of course. And some rather important ones, particularly the experts at the Department of Energy -- the folks in the US government who actually have real experience in enriching uranium and making nuclear weapons, a rather potent credential.

They didn't think the aluminum tubes were for nukes.

Yet that seemingly qualified verdict was overruled by contending voices at the CIA, particularly one analyst who took up the tubes case aggressively.

As David Albright wrote in March 2003, "For over a year and a half, an analyst at the CIA has been pushing the aluminum tube story, despite consistent disagreement by a wide range of experts in the United States and abroad. His opinion, however, obtained traction in the summer of 2002 with senior members of the Bush Administration, including the President."

In any case, who did the actual technical analysis of the tubes for the CIA? Apparently they hired an outside consultant/contractor -- given the US government's expertise in the production of nuclear weapons, a rather dubious instance of outsourcing. And that contractor came back with the thumbs up on the nuclear verdict.

But the thumb, it seems, didn't start out up. It needed help.

Apparently, the first time they came back with their judgment it was either ambiguous or negative on whether these tubes seemed likely to be destined for an Iraqi nuclear program.

Only that wasn't the answer the tube-master at the CIA wanted. And they were told so in no uncertain terms.

Getting the thumbs-up apparently required a bit of couching, a clear message that the initial thumbs-down (or perhaps thumbs-sideways) wasn't the right answer.

Verdict number two, I'm told, came back on the mark, with an answer finely tuned to meet the required specifications.


www.talkingpointsmemo.com

[seemslikeadream]

107. Banking on Baghdad: Inside Iraq's 7,000-Year History of War, Profit,

Banking on Baghdad: Inside Iraq's 7,000-Year History of War, Profit, and Conflict
Edwin Black
ISBN: 0-471-67186-X
Hardcover
400 pages
September 2004

New York Times and international bestselling author Edwin Black uncovers Iraq’s hidden economy and the companies that profit from its upheaval
Big business and global warfare have long been fiery and symbiotic forces in Iraq. Banking on Baghdad tells the dramatic and tragic history of a land long the center of world commerce–and documents the many ways Iraq’s recent history mirrors its tumultuous past. Tracing the involvement

of Western governments and militaries, as well as oil, banking, and other corporate interests in Iraq, Black shows that today, just as yesterday, the world needs Iraq’s resources–and is always willing to fight and invade in order to acquire and protect them.

While demonstrating that Iraq itself is partially to blame for its current state of turmoil, Black does not shy away from the uncomfortable truth that war and profit have also played an equal part in creating the Iraq we know today. Just as he did in IBM and the Holocaust, Black exposes the hidden associations between leading corporations, war, and oil–such as the astonishing connections between Nazi Germany, Iraq, and the Holocaust.

He exposes the war and race-based profiteering by some of the world’s most prestigious corporations, as well as the political and economic ties between the Bush administration and the companies that gain handsomely from its foreign policy. Just as he did in War Against the Weak, Black offers a compelling blend of history and contemporary investigative journalism that spans a century and eschews easy answers for complicated questions.

Edwin Black (Washington, DC) is the award-winning New York Times bestselling author of IBM and the Holocaust, The Transfer Agreement, and War Against the Weak. His journalism has appeared in the Washington Post, The Village Voice, The Sunday Times (of London), and The Los Angeles Times.

more
http://www.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/productCd-047167186X.html

[H2O Man]

112. That ties in very well

with Kevin Phillip's "American Dynasty," doesn't it? And it has the fascinating connection between today's power elite and the German economic interests from between the World Wars. A ways up on this thread, there was a pointed comment about the "flat earth" thinkers ... to which I added some thoughts on the theories of Malthus .... and it is no coincidence that the Malthus theory was one of the building blocks of war-time Germany's power-elite.

[Qutzupalotl]

110. The forged document

which the CIA advised Bush not to trust in October 2002

the deliberate use of a forged document in the State of the Union

a photo of Bush on the White House website going over his 2003 State of the Union Address, line by line

the SOTU is an address to congress; lying to congress is a felony


On edit: You asked what else...

[Bush_Eats_Beef]

99. Rove will be the next administration member to say "Go F Yourself"...

...even if he is caught red-handed. I don't care about the evidence, I don't care about the testimony, I am willing to go on record right now and state that no matter where the chips fall around Rove, NOTHING will happen to him...not even a mild rebuke from Bush. This man will WALK. And as he walks, he will tell his accusers to go "F" themselves, say how much better it made him feel, and get a big "thumbs up" from his cronies.

If I'm wrong, I'll be the first one to post that admission on DU.

NOTHING is going to happen to Rove. It would be in everyone's best interests to find another "justice" fantasy.

[H2O Man]

105. You may be right, but only if

the "justice fantasy" is taking place entirely in terms of the democrats and republicans, and perhaps Fox News.

However, if it is what Klein described as "the intelligence community ... at war with the White House, and the uniformed military ... at war with the civilian leadership of the Pentagon," you may be pleased to find it is more than a day dream.

A simple exercise: what might a real life military hero, with a record of bravery, a very high IQ, and a true sense of patriotism -- perhaps like General Wesley Clark -- think of men like bush, cheney, and rove? Fellows who are brave when it comes to other people putting their lives on the line, but with no record to match ?

We are all familiar with the expression "rise above your principles," right? And could we agree that Colin Powell is the very definition of this expression? Well, isn't it very possible that others in high positions are more like Clark? And hold true to their principles?

If rove "walks," it will most likely be due to a pardon. I don't think bush & cheney will be indicted .... I think that they will be thoroughly discredited, and loose in November. Our nation needs to reach a higher level of maturity, not to have its foundations shaken. Still, we are in the midst of a constitutional crisis. And how it plays out will determine the nature of American society in the future. Believe it.

[shraby]

106. H20, any thoughts on

my comments in no. 103?

[KYDEM]

117. Kick

n/t

[loudsue]

120. H2O Man, I'd like to weigh in here....

I HAVE been reading your posts....in fact, ever since you first arrived on the scene, I've been a big fan of your posts. Your posts have always been intelligent, thoughtful, and thought-provoking. You're one of my favorite posters on DU, in fact.

I'm surprised to learn today (on this thread) that you thought your posts were sort of invisible.... and I didn't realize that people weren't replying to you!

It's like... you're saying what I'm thinking, and you say it one helluvalot better than I could!

:yourock: I'm glad to know you have other fans here, as well, and I guess we're going to have to start replying more to those posters who we enjoy learning from!

:hi: Thanks for your input on this thread! It's one great thread, for sure! I wish they were all this way!

:kick::kick:

[H2O Man]

130. My friend loudsue:

Yes, I'm sure that we have spoken in the past. In fact, I believe it may have been on a thread discussing the horror that civilians suffer in American wars .... perhaps in regard to Martin Luther King's statement in support of the civilians in Vietnam, in a speech he gave a year to the day before our government silenced him.

Threads like this one make me miss the formal classroom.I'm very impressed by what I've been reading on here. I do not think we will find the right-wing outlets pointing to this thread as an example of "wild-eyed" democrats!

Thank you for your kind words. I appreciate them!

[hedda_foil]

123. Could it be that Sibell Edmonds stumbled onto a major piece of this scam?

Some of the flashing red dots highlighted in this thread are:

1. Plame was heavily involved in a sting operation to expose major dealings in WMD components by a group or groups linked to the * cabal, as well as other governments.

2. The real reason for outing her was not so much to discredit her husband as to derail her investigation.

3. The indictments that are due to come down this month may reveal more of the outlines of what really happened.

Okay, now consider what Sibel Edmonds said in her recent long interview with Christopher Delisio, published on antiwar.com ...

http://www.antiwar.com/deliso/?articleid=2917

<snip>

"ou have network of people who obtain certain information and they take it out and sell it to … whomever would be the highest bidder. Then you have people who would be bringing into the country narcotics from the East, and their connections. is only then that you really see the big picture."

At several points you state that such organized crime networks employ "semi-legitimate organizations" as their point of interface with governments and the "legit" world. Can you explain exactly what you mean?

SE: These are organizations that might have a legitimate front – say as a business, or a cultural center or something. And we've also heard a lot about Islamic charities as fronts for terrorist organizations, but the range is much broader and even, simpler.

CD: For example?

SE: You might have an organization supposed to be promoting the cultural affairs of a certain country within another country. Hypothetically, say, an Uzbek folklore society based in Germany. The stated purpose would be to hold folklore-related activities – and they might even do that – but the real activities taking place behind the scenes are criminal.

CD: Such as?

SE: Everything – from drugs to money laundering to arms sales. And yes, there are certain convergences with all these activities and international terrorism.

CD: So with these organizations we're talking about a lot of money –

SE: Huge, just massive. They don't deal with 1 million or 5 million dollars, but with hundreds of millions.

CD: From your previous testimony and the examples I want to bring up next, it would seem that organized crime with terrorist links is really holding the reins inside powerful governments, even the American one. No?

SE: That may be, but I don't know. I didn't get high enough up on the ladder to find out. With all of this suspicious and unprecedented "state secrets" obstructionism from Ashcroft, it might seem that way, but I don't have any direct information.

CD: But what do think, within departments such as the Pentagon and the State Department. Do you suspect certain high officials may be profiting from terrorist-linked organized crime?

SE: I can't say anything specific with regards to these departments, because I didn't work for them. But as for the politicians, what I can say is that when you start talking about huge amounts of money, certain elected officials become automatically involved. And there are different kinds of campaign contributions – legal and illegal, declared and undeclared.

CD: Could this apparent toleration of dangerous criminal groups in the midst possibly be interpreted to mean that American policy is driven by the "ends justify the means" philosophy?

SE: But how are the ends possibly met by such activities? To this day, I just can't see how. What is happening does not benefit 99.9 percent of Americans – just a very small elite.

I'm no expert, but from what I have personally seen I can say that our national security is being compromised every day, because important investigations are being stopped, and potentially important clues are being overlooked. It's absolutely incredible that even after 9/11, certain individuals, foreign businessmen and others, among others, are still escaping scrutiny.

Okay, perhaps talking about the pre-9/11 world they could get away with saying "we didn't know," but to continue doing so – I mean, what if we are attacked by nuclear or chemical weapons, what will be their next excuse? That "we didn't know" it could happen? Come on! I can prove they are lying, because they know.

<snip>

CD: Okay, so tell us about Jan Dickerson, and that experience.

SE: Well, I have to be somewhat general about this, but based on unclassified sources alone you can get a pretty good idea. Melek Can Dickerson was a Turkish woman –

CD: Originally from Turkey, like you?

SE: Yes, from Turkey, and she met her husband there, Douglas – Major Douglas Dickerson, that is. He was in the U.S. Air Force, stationed in Ankara. They met in 1991 and stayed in Turkey till 1994 or 1995. Then they went to Germany, where he was stationed after, for two or three years. And then they came to the U.S. in 1999.

CD: But first, regarding Turkey: do you know what Dickerson's function was there in the USAF?

SE: He was involved with weapons procurement for various Central Asian and Middle Eastern governments from the United States.

CD: Yo! Do you mean he was procuring weapons on an intra-governmental basis, or something else?

SE: Yes, from the U.S. government for these other governments. I assume it was all legal and part of his job.

CD: Okay, but in the process he could have built up contacts and connections with various unsavory characters in regional governments and in the arms trade –

SE: He could have, but I don't know.

CD: Anyway, what kind of countries are we talking about here?

SE: Oh… I don't know all of them exactly, but I guess these would be countries like Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan –

CD: All of our favorites –

SE: Yes, right, countries like these and some Middle Eastern countries.

CD: And what about after Turkey? When they went to Germany?

SE: Well, he was stationed there, and while in Germany, Jan Dickerson started working for this semi-legitimate organization whose members, much later, were being investigated by the FBI, when I was working there.

CD: Fascinating, And this criminal group that the Dickersons were involved in, what kind of countries did it have connections with and where were its members from?

SE: Oh, that varied. Members came from all over; when you're dealing with those huge amounts of money you get people from everywhere.

CD: Americans?

SE: Of course. But also from Europe, Central Asia, etc. And this organization had branches throughout these places, in the U.S., Germany, and several other countries.


-------------

There's much more to this piece, but it seems to me that there's quite a few breadcrumbs here that may well interweave with the Plame Affair.

[H2O Man]

126. For goodness sakes!

You, my friend, have just detailed the actions taken by those forces that brought us the Iran-Contra Chapter of our nation's history! Right? Isn't it? Business fronting for what we know is organized crime? Large scale drug trafficing to fund weapons exchanges? It is NO COINCIDENCE that this was the hand dealt to the world by VP Bush.

But what many people overlook is that a Senator named Kerry was the individual who doggedly went after this criminal action being carried out by .... the same people who are running Washington DC -- and hence the world -- today! So we begin to see this enormously complex situation taking a sinister form, and we see that this sinister force has some old grudges against Kerry.

What I think is equally fascinating is that by examining this, breaking down specific parts for a closer examination, and having some very insightful people working together, we are able to make far more sense of this than -- I dare say, in all seriousness -- any of the major news medias. (*** Joe Klein of TIME knows the deal better than any single reporter today.)

[shraby]

138. I'm just wondering how Sibel

learned so much about the modus operandi in the short time she worked as a translator.

[hedda_foil]

153. She was the ONLY qualified Turkish translator at the FBI

And she's smart as hell. Read the article.

[coeur_de_lion]

144. Thanks to all the great posters in this thread . . .

I am reading this probably long after the discussion is over and you have all gone to bed, but it has been great reading, and I've printed it out so I can read in more detail over the weekend.

This issue is IMO the most important as far as exposing * & Co. I have hope after reading some of the posts on this thread that maybe, just maybe, the evil machinations of this administration can come to light.

People (republicans) do not want to believe that Bush clamored up the war in Iraq, or used the terrorist threat as an excuse to invade. They were hell bent on revenge after 9/11 and Iraq was a great idea to them anyway. But this is something different. This is the * administration endangering the lives of CIA agents for their own evil purposes, and it is an easier charge to prove. It is one thing for Bush to destroy Iraq, quite another thing for him to turn on his own people. Once this comes out even the Repugs will be outraged.

Thanks to H20, seemslikeadream, and all the other posters for the work you put into the ideas expressed in your posts. I've enjoyed this thread like no other I've seen on DU. Fabulous. Just fabulous.

}(

[H2O Man]

154. I'm still up, and really enjoying this.

Fantastic thread. This is a fine example of what type of thinking we are capable of on DU. And while a few people are expressing doubt about the possibility that the criminals in the current administration will ever be held responsible for their crimes -- and they have every right to doubt! -- we have displayed an ability to identify the "how" and the "why" of these crimes. No small accomplishment. None of the major medias have gone as deep as we have on this thread.

[leftchick]

172. The "how" and the "why"... reminds me of the PNAC agenda...

Remember oh, so long ago when we on DU knew of the PNAC agenda long before the war. It was brought up in the foreign press here and there but not touched here in the US with all of the war cheerleading going on. The PNAC agenda was a "conspiricy theory" as heard on c-span. Now, way after the war it is brought up a lot. The "Neo-con architects of War" perle, wolfowitz, feith are being outed in US media now. Why just the other day in my Doctor's office I leafed through a Newsweek and saw the lineup of neo-cons, feith, libbey and the rest naming them as managing the OSP in the Pentagon. I did not have time to finish it, yet it was a wonder to finally see it out there. I believe they will pay for their insane visions of Imperialism in the ME.

I also have faith the Plame investigation will come be bigger and more devastating to the cabal than imaginable. Thanks in no small part to your amazing posts here H2O Man! This is one of the best threads ever! Thanks to all...

:loveya:

[coeur_de_lion]

175. I'm not worthy . . .

You guys really know what you are talking about, and I've learned an awful lot by reading just this one thread. I hope to heaven that * gets caught up in all of this. Since he hired an attorney he must think there is potential for him to be indicted, or named as a co-conspirator. He has gotten away with much worse than this; but this particular incident seems to be the best one to hang him on. You know, just like they did with Capone and tax evasion.

What on earth can we do to help the process along? There must be something. Who can we write to? It's one thing to know just how evil * and Cheney are, and to fully understand the issues underlying the Plame case. But what can we do to help hang them?

My Dad is ex- Air Force intelligence (20 years) and I am dying to get his opinion on the Plame case. He has just returned from 2 weeks Ireland, so I'm waiting for him to get over his jet-lag before I start peppering him with questions. I'm definitely going to send him this thread and ask him what he thinks. He has a unique way of looking at issues like this one.

[H2O Man]

180. Two things:

(1) You are as "worthy" as anyone and everyone on this thread. Our strength is that we are inclusive .... everyone adds something important to the whole of this conversation.

(2) What part of Ireland? In April, I published a book on the Irish immigrants in upstate New York, who worked on the canals and railroads .... it has helped me "reconnect" with some of the extended family in County Kerry and Limerick, as well as across the USA and Canada. I'm hoping to get over to the Old Sod soon. I'm interested in what your Dad thinks of the Plame incident, as well as anything about his trip!

[coeur_de_lion]

183. thanks for your response, H20 man

Dad was all over Ireland. Our family moved to Wales in the 1850s so Dad spent his first several days (June 14 - 18) visiting with Welsh relatives. Of course they don't think of themselves as Welsh, they are IRISH. With few exceptions they married into other Irish families in Wales.

Our family hails from Drimoleague, and Skibereen. Those areas were hardest hit by the famine so of course they got out. Our family are also activists going way back -- my great-grandfather went on the lam after slugging a British cop during a brawl between the Irish and the Welsh iron workers in Merthyr Tydfil. Dad, even though he was career military, has always been a staunch Democrat, and raised us all to be actively interested Democrats. I could tell you stories about the Gulf of Tonkin from his perspective, as well as Watergate. We were in the DC area when Watergate happened. When the Gulf of Tonkin happened Dad was stationed in Hawaii and saw how the whole thing was turned around and then covered up. Lost out on a promotion or two because he spoke out against it. Then spent a year in Vietnam as "payment" for voicing his opinions re: the Gulf of Tonkin. Left 6 kids behind while he worked in Saigon for Air Force intelligence. This is one of the reasons I loathe the * administration. If my Dad can leave 6 kids behind to cope without him during the war, * could have left his partying for a bit to serve in Vietnam.

Dad always has strong opinions about anything political. Interesting that he was in Ireland during the infamous Bush visit -- can't wait to hear his take on that. He is going to be 75 next month, and I imagine he will be several days recovering from the trip. I don't want to start in on him until he has had a chance to rest. I'll be in touch with my sisters later today to see how he is feeling after the trip. When he is sufficiently rested I'll be after him to describe his trip -- and to offer his opinion on the Plame case.

Thanks for being supportive of my feelings re: Plame, and also for your research and opinions about the case. I've thoroughly enjoyed reading your posts.

[H2O Man]

186. Regarding the "famine" ...

Malone: "My father died of starvation in Ireland in Black '47. Maybe you've heard of it?"

Violet: "The famine?"

Malone: "No, the starvation. When a country is full of food, and exporting it, there can be no famine."

-George Bernard Shaw; Man and Superman

On page 29 of my book, I take Shaw's idea a step farther: on one day in November of 1848, the following items were sent to England from Cork: 147 bales of bacon; 120 casks and 135 barrels of pork; 5 casks of ham; 300 bags of flour; 300 head of cattle; 239 sheep; and 542 crates of eggs. Yet people were dying from starvation and from the diseases that feed on malnutrition. Please read the posts a ways below here regarding the Mathusian theories and Darwin's "survival of the fittest." The Irish experience is the classic example of the cruelty human beings endure because of the greed of the power elite.

[coeur_de_lion]

191. You are a great and wise teacher, H2O

I've read many stories of the supposed famine in Ireland, but none as informative as your last post. I admit to being quite naive as to the real causes of the famine in Ireland. I only know that the Irish were exploited, starved out, and driven from Ireland in the 1850s. There was a Dr. Donovan who wrote many stories of death and disease in Skibbereen in those times, some of which are excerpted here:
http://ballinagree.freeservers.com/deathreen.html
and here:
http://vassun.vassar.edu/~sttaylor/FAMINE/ILN/West/West.html

There are lots more where that came from! My Grandpa did not like to talk about what his family went through; we've had to be detectives and dig it up ourselves. There is only one family member left alive who remembers how bad things were in Wales after the family moved there.

(3) Darwin's theory of evolution: forget their mixing up doctrines at different levels to EXPLOIT the ignorance, fears, and outright STUPIDITY of the "christian right!" I quote Prouty: "Darwin persuades them to believe that because they survive, at no matter what the cost to others and to Earth, they must be - by definition - the fittest; and conversely, because they know they are the choosen, that is, the fittest, they are Earth's assured survivors, fulfilling the prophecy of Armageddon." Just think of cheney in the cave for months after 9-11. Talk to me about this!

It does seem as if * & Co. are trying to do much the same thing to us that the British did to the Irish in the 1800s.

I don't think for a minute that * is a saved Christian; religion is merely a political tool he uses to manipulate the fanatically religious. Seems to be working for him so far.

Once again I'd love to read your book, can you tell me where I can purchase it? PM me if you don't want to say it on the board.

[H2O Man]

194. Ah! "Old Skibbereen"!!!!

My goodness! From the song, author unknown:

"Oh, father dear, I often hear, you speak of Erin's Isle; why, oh why, did you abandon it? For what reason, tell me why?"

"Oh, son! I loved our native land, with energy and pride; 'til blight and taxes and the rent, forced us out, they are the reasons why."

Again, thank you for your kind words. But I am only wise enough to know that there are truly wise men and women out there .... and they are our teachers. I am merely that sometimes annoying kid that sits quietly in the back of the classroom for the first half of the semester, and then finally starts talking ..... and has trouble stopping!

[coeur_de_lion]

197. I take it you're Irish? Knew there was a reason I liked you!

Not everybody can be Irish, you know.

I've done an awful lot of research on my Irish ancestry, but most of what I dug up was in Wales. Church records were destroyed during the famine (starvation). Also, my name is very common in Ireland, like Smith is here. Real hard to narrow it down. I hope you had an easier time of it.

Just think, the British had no idea that in starving out the Irish, they would be creating such a strong American-Irish contingent. There are far more of us here in the states now than there are (or ever were) in Ireland. The Irish are nothing if not stubborn, and they've managed to overcome (for the most part) the brutality and suppression the British visited on them for centuries.

Still wanna read the book.

This is by far the best thread I've read on DU, I'm so enjoying it that I'm neglecting important outside activities!

I'm off for a long bike ride, hope you all enjoy this discussion, looking forward to reading more when I get back. This is so fun!

[coeur_de_lion]

184. Would love to read your book, by the way!

[gandalf]

169. But what was Kerry's motivation?

Was it his sense of justice that drove him to investigate these things? Maybe, after all, he was still young, had probably a picture of the ideal US society, and drug trafficking did probably not fit into this ideal picture.

But, as Ruppert(FTW) states, the effect of Kerry's investigation was not that the scandal was widely discussed in society, but that the effect was a kind of "limited hangout", after which the thing was more or less buried.

If you look at the remarks on the www.thememoryhole.org website regarding the Kerry report (it is published there), you read that the report was available in print only for some days. That seems to be symptomatic.

A more unfriendly interpretation would be that Kerry, as a representant of the old establishment, wanted to control the damage that could be caused if the investigations got out of hand, and that he was not really interested to reveal every sinister element of the BBCI, CIA, drug-smuggling plots.

[Cheswick2.0]

287. unfortunately this is the theory I have come to believe

A more unfriendly interpretation would be that Kerry, as a representant of the old establishment, wanted to control the damage that could be caused if the investigations got out of hand, and that he was not really interested to reveal every sinister element of the BBCI, CIA, drug-smuggling plots.

[scottxyz]

222. Wow! Amazing interview with Sibel Edmonds

It was long, but well worth reading.

She is a brilliant and honest woman.

Reposting the link:

http://www.antiwar.com/deliso/?articleid=2917

What's most amazing to me is all the links between big organized crime (drug money, big-time gun runners) and the 9-11 conspirators. Sounds like Iran-Contra all over again.

Joan Didion could do a brilliant follow-on to her novel "Democracy" based on this info!

[oasis]

127. Kick for a wonderful weekend of reading.

[Stephanie]

139. but but but

I bet money.

I was so sure.

I told EVERYONE.

THIS FRIDAY.

I want my FROG MARCH.

[truth2power]

140. Kick

:kick:

[Fla Dem]

289. kick

:kick:

[truth2power]

146. H2O Man...

I don't remember reading your posts and I'm here a lot. Where have you been hanging out? This is intriguing.

But to get to the point: I'd like to go back to your reply to me, your post #84 where you said that what's important is the "Why?" Your last sentence: "I think it would be interesting to see what theories we can come up with on DU this afternoon....Why?"

I remember when JFK was killed. I have never believed that Oswald was the lone gunman. He was a minor player at best, IMO. Jack Ruby with ties to organized crime getting into that police station "just" at the right time to take out Oswald, then saying he did it because he was overcome by the sight of Jackie's grief (Bah!) and then Dorothy Kilgallen talked to him. She allegedly said she was going to blow everything wide open and then she ended up dead.

The point being, I've spent all these years thinking about "how" as opposed to "why".

The organized crime thread runs through all of this - starting with the Kennedys, Jack running around with that girlfriend of Sam Giancana, Bobby really going after the organized crime bosses.

Then Nixon came along and he was always out yachting with Bebe Rebozo, who was a slimy character if ever I saw one. And I said years ago that when Nixon talks about "the Cuban thing" on the tapes, he's referring to the Kennedy assassination.

Guess I'm just rambling here, but maybe you can expand on the "why".

Seems like Hedda had it when she said Plame was working to expose the Bush cabal dealings in WMD components.

I feel like I'm at the edge of being able to put it all together....

Help??

edit: spelling.

[shraby]

150. The Sibel Edmonds story ties

in with Afghanistan also. The poppy fields are blooming mightily there and if I remember right, our gov't encouraged the interim gov't there to try to reduce them by 25 per cent at least. Why just by a quarter? Why not try to get rid of all of the fields? Why is lawlessness by the tribal heads being allowed to continue to the point where elections are impossible to hold? I think Afghanistan is a big player in the whole scheme not only for the pipeline but for the poppies. Any thoughts on this?

[seemslikeadream]

151. Poppies

from earlier thread



Back by popular demand, our 3 box specials:

Buy 3 boxes of our Tasmanian Mediums and get1 free!
Buy 3 boxes of our Turkish special and get 1 box free.
Offer valid until June 30, 2004
http://www.poppiesinternational.com

Minstrel Boy

such an odd, beautiful plant
Reminds me of the one in the old Star Trek episode that makes Spock trip out:



Peter Dale Scott, one of the great minds unravelling the secret history of the National Security State:

Poppy Paradox: US War in Afghanistan Boosts Terror Funds

It is true, as President Bush has insisted, that global terrorism is financed by the flow of illicit drugs. Yet by installing and rewarding a coalition of drug-financed warlords in Kabul, the United States has itself helped restore the flow of Afghan heroin to terrorist groups, from the Balkans and Chechnya to Tajikistan, Pakistan and Kashmir.

Thanks to the U.S. intervention, Afghanistan will again supply up to 70 percent of the world's heroin this year, 90 percent of the heroin reaching Europe and even a part of the heroin reaching the United States.

...

U.S. actions probably reflect its complex relations with Pakistan, which regards both Gul Agha and Hazrat Ali as allies. For 20 years, the complex of heroin-terror networks in Central Asia has been fostered by Pakistan's intelligence service, the ISI.

Since backing drug-trafficking mujahideen against the Soviet Union, the ISI has had a vision of using the drug traffic to project its influence beyond Afghanistan into Central Asia. Afghan opium and heroin from the mujahideen during the 1980s corrupted not just the ISI itself, but the whole of Pakistani society. Pakistan's opium-heroin economy reached at least half the size of its official one, and in terms of exports may have surpassed it.

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Articles/Scott_PoppyParadox.htm


al bupp

Everything We Were Taught About Poppies is Wrong
The seed of the "Opium Poppy" is the same as what's sold in garden stores nationwide for use as ornamental flowers. Read Jim Hogshire's "Opium for the Masses" to find out more. The history of opiate use from poppies, and various laws enacted to regulate this is also succinctly outlined in article he contributed to "You Are Being Lied To", entitled "Poppycock: Truth and Lies about Poppies, Opium, and Painkilling Drugs" (http://www.disinfo.com/site/displayarticle8.html ).

This website also appears to have a lot information about poppies:

http://www.poppiesinternational.com/index.html


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic...

[H2O Man]

152. No, my friend: you are NOT rambling!

It's no coincidence that in the wisest teachings in cultures around the globe, that the most insightful men and women from across the centuries have taught us that "he who knows 'why' always is the master of he who knows 'how.'"

Now, there is another teaching that I'd like to share with you, before I start to ramble on: the Persian Sufi poet Jalal-ad-din Rumi wrote:

"This world and yonder world are incessantly giving birth: every cause is a mother, its effect the child.
When the effect is born, it too becomes a cause and gives birth to wonderous effects,
These causes are generation on generation, but it needs a very well lighted eye to see the links in their chain."

Now that beautiful little poem describes Truth to Power, eh?

It is not far-fetched, in light of this teaching, to begin to connect things such as the JFK assassination, Vietnam war, watergate, Iran-Contra, the 2000 election and the Supreme Court's theft of American democratic process. And it's not simply a theory: many of the same players keep popping up, over and over.

Here's a thought for you to start with (well, not start, but to go with): remember that Eisenhower gave the famous parting address, warning of the power of the military industrial complex? And Stone, in his movie JFK, put forth his theory that the murder in Dallas was a coup? Well, what if JFK's election was the coup, and his murder was merely the re-alignment of the power elite's control? A cause, an effect, a cause, an effect...... Does this make sense?

[Oilwellian]

159. Here's a theory

Plame had to know the drug trade was funding the very wmds she tried to monitor. She also had to know our very own government is largely responsible for the proliferation of the wmds she was trying to keep in check. Could it be she was very outspoken about this?

From the start of the Plame scandal, I've always wondered how Cheney and company could not know who Plame was. Cheney made several trips to CIA headquarters prior to our invasion of Iraq, and twisted arms with the analysts to try and get them to go along with the bogus story of wmds in Iraq. Plame was intimately involved with wmds around the world and I've always wondered if she was a part of those discussions. Perhaps that's when Cheney realized how dangerous Plame was to the entire enterprise.

On Edit:

I forgot to add one important link:
http://cryptome.org/turkey-tale.htm

[hedda_foil]

155. Read Farewell America and the "Why's" become all too clear.

Same forces, same players.

If you don't want to pay for it, it's freely available on the internet. You can download all of it here: http://www.jfk-online.com/farewell00.html

If there's never another book you read about a conspiracy in America (including 911, because this 1968 book by French intel is just as accurate in that context) you must read this book!

[H2O Man]

156. I agree, hedda_foil.....

It's one of the most important books than anyone interested in our nation's history can read. It's one of those books that once you read a few pages, you aren't going to put it down.

[Disturbed]

158. Niger Yellow Cake

Did the bogus doc. come out of Cheney's office?

[scarletwoman]

162. WHEW! What a thread!

It's late, I've been imbibing, so it's not like I have anything particularily edifying to add here. But I have to say SOMETHING, because reading all the way through this thread has been such an awesome experience.

Somewhere back in one of H2OMan's earlier posts came the question (paraphrasing here) of "what investigations being made by Valerie Plame needed to stopped?" My first thought was look to the financing aspect of this stuff -- BCCI and all that. (for what it's worth...)

It seems to me that something that NEVER gets talked about in the mainstream -- and even rarely in the alternative media -- is the structure of the business of arms sales throughout the world. Who are these people that profit from the fueling of endless conflict and death-dealing?

There are many strands in the web that everyone here is working to unravel, many arms to the Octopus. Three years ago when I first joined DU I attempted to convey the linkages I saw from the JFK assassination (I was 14 when that happened, and donned my first layer of tinfoil right then and there) on through the present, but obviously lacked the talent for clear exposition on the subject.

It brings me a grim sort of joy to see so many good minds addressing these issues with far greater lucidity than ever I was able to muster.

Many, many thanks,
sw

[shraby]

163. Little did I know when I asked

a question it would lead to all of this. I have one more question. What will the powers behind this do now? They've apparently been working on this for a long long time. I doubt if they'll go down without a fight of some sort.

[shraby]

165. Another question.....

what is their end-game? In other words what are they trying to achieve? Global domination? I doubt that can be done. American domination? Almost accomplished, although what use is a gutted America?

[loudsue]

167. I'm glad you're still here, shraby! I'm awake, too....

This thread has truly been a DU barn-burning, brain-storming, why-in-the-hell-can't-we-do-this-all-the-time magic thread!!

I'm surprised the FBI/CIA hasn't shut us down yet!

There seems to be a "power" on this globe that is so ominous, omnipotent, and so terribly far-removed from everything we can touch.. no matter HOW MUCH we might find out about it, that it is mind boggling.

It's a dark, dangerous, unfeeling power that moves freely above, around and through the highest levels of governments across the globe. A power so deeply wealthy, so massive and dangerous that no person or government agency, and no military of any size can bring it down, or even begin to control it. Why? Because any power big enough to stand against it has been swallowed up by it, or has been infiltrated by it, already.

Eisenhower knew that, which gave rise to his speech about the military/industrial complex. But the tentacles were poised to grow beyond any comprehensible control, even then. And I truly believe Eisenhower KNEW he was one voice calling in the wilderness by the time he made that speech.

The more I've witnessed the working of this network of organized crime through the internet research that has been done.... and beautifully reported on and shared by our excellent DU researchers & posters... the more I've wondered if the highest levels of this group are even HUMAN...in the sense that we can "relate" to what we believe is "human".

They are undoubtedly extremely intelligent, ruthless, and unrelenting in their quest for whatever it is they are after...their ultimate goal. And "the American People" are NOTHING to them, except units of production and consumption. They have NO care, whatsoever, for our welfare, other than to the extent that our production and consumption is as they wish it to be.... and that our tax dollars continue to flow. This is the same for their care concerning the Iraqi families who have been blown to bits, the Sudanese, the Vietnamese, .... they just do not care about populations, much less individuals.

That is why we're seeing the destruction of our Democracy, even when that is what is being "sold" as the reason for imperialism. The global organized crime leaders WILL NOT take orders from "the people", who are SUPPOSED to be the driving force in a Democracy. There is nothing more repugnant to these powerful/wealthy people than the idea that the unwashed masses could actually impede their progress. No. They would not tolerate such an unsavory thought.

That is why I've been so obsessed with the black box voting mess: it just makes it so much simpler for them to fix elections with the stroke of a key. And GOD FORBID if "the people" should happen to elect some charismatic leader who might happen to be able to lead the people in exposing and/or dealing a blow to the crime network.

The bush crime family is right in the slimy middle of that global organized crime network, and we all know it, here on DU. And the media, and especially the churches, synagogues and mosques have been nothing but a tool of this crime network.

So....hmmm. What COULD be done? It's HUGE! But....that's how the Black Box Voting thing seemed to me before Bev Harris (and other vote-saving patriots) started that crusade on our behalf. And we've actually made enough headway that they've got "agents" assigned. To me, that truly is one way to achieve a small roadblock in their progress....insuring a legitimate VOTE by the people. The next step is the press.

This is one reason I finally came to believe wholeheartedly in Wes Clark during the primaries. And I STILL wish Kerry would choose him as his VP candidate. I fear without Clark, Kerry would be a much more vulnerable target.... and I'm sorry, but John Edwards is just no match for the powers that need to be faced-down.

:kick::kick::kick::kick:

[shraby]

168. I'm still here, but about to turn in.

Excellent post! I guess it's just beyond my comprehension that something like that could be so avaricious. They can't possibly spend it all in their and their progeny's lifetimes. They can't even admit that they exist, so what's the point? Absolute power? That doesn't seem a legitimate goal if they can't let people beyond their group know about them. It's absolutely mind boggling. I'm outa here for tonight. Hope this thread can grow and maybe shed some more light on the whole cabal.

[HootieMcBoob]

171. A kick for the best few days of DU in a long time

More More!!!! :kick:

[leftchick]

174. How about absolute survival?

From one of H2O Man's many excellent posts this Malthus quote from long ago nails it for me. What is the point of all of that wealth and power?...

<snip>
Proutey notes that in 1805, Thomas Malthus "postulated the idea that humanity is multiplying its numbers at a geometric rate while increasing its life-support capability at only an arithmatic rate. As a result, it has been universally concluded by the power elite that only a relatively few humans are destined to survive successfully ."

[H2O Man]

176. Now we begin to examine a historical "why?"

I again want to stress that this is not something I have thought up: I wish that I were so insightful! But I'm basing this on what Colonel L. Fletcher Prouty taught us in his 1992 book "JFK: The CIA, Vietnam, and the Plot to Assassinate John F. Kennedy."

Four theories or concepts that we need to recognize as forming the foundation for the "power elite." (Churchill, in Lord Denning's book "The Family Story," calls them the "High Cabal;" Fuller calls them the "invisible power structure ...(who are) vastly ambitious individuals who (have) become so effectively powerful because of their ability to remain invisible while operating behind the national scenery. ..... Always their victories (are) in the name of some powerful sovereign-rules country. The real power structures (are) always the invisible ones behind the visible sovereign powers.")

(1) Magellan's 1520 circumnavigation of earth, which resulted in large-scale colonialism rather than trade, (Locke's doctrine of discovery and rights of conquest!) showed that there were a finite amount of resources.

(2) Thomas Malthus in 1805 showed the earth's population multiplies at a geometric rate, while the life-supporting resources could at best increase at an arithmatic rate. What does this imply for a family like the bush clan? In terms of GREED?

(3) Darwin's theory of evolution: forget their mixing up doctrines at different levels to EXPLOIT the ignorance, fears, and outright STUPIDITY of the "christian right!" I quote Prouty: "Darwin persuades them to believe that because they survive, at no matter what the cost to others and to Earth, they must be - by definition - the fittest; and conversely, because they know they are the choosen, that is, the fittest, they are Earth's assured survivors, fulfilling the prophecy of Armageddon." Just think of cheney in the cave for months after 9-11. Talk to me about this!

(4)Heisenberg's theory of indeterminacy, which they use to excuse their errors, their confusion, their lies, and the evil of their actions! It's "God's Will" .... because He threw the cosmic dice. They are merely doing His Will!

We have constructed a solid foundation in the past 48 hours. Now we are building on it. To understand "why?" demands that we know the patterns of thought that motivate our opposition.

[LizW]

178. Jesus. Now we're getting down to it.

This is an amazing thread and I have to be away from the computer today! Please don't stop, guys. See you all tonight.

[shraby]

213. Regarding Darwin's survival of the fittest...

the theory postulates that minor changes in a species over time is what causes them to survive. If the changes are not beneficial to the species as a whole, the ones with the changes will not survive until a change is made that will benefit. This is a "natural order" of things. Two animals that have made changes that have enabled them to survive, but are not beneficial in the long run are the Panda and the Koala. Their dependence on two plants, the bamboo for the Panda and the eucalyptus for the Koala. Without those two plants, both species will become extinct very rapidly.
By trying to force a survival of the fittest in the human race, there are some very real dangers. One is, who all do the fittest allow to survive with them for their own benefit? The wrong choices can ultimately spell their doom.

How many and what kinds of the scientists, educators, doctors, etc. do they allow to live? Too narrow a spectrum will leave them vulnerable to natural forces..i.e. virus infections, etc.

How many of the "peons" do they allow? Too few and their own needs won't be met. Too many and there could be a rebellion.

How many of the "elite" do they allow? Too many and there is a chance of dissention and overthrow from their own.

Can anyone add more?

[H2O Man]

179. When the American public

was "confronted" with the image of General Wesley Clark (a war hero, genius, and patriot) saying that the "reality" bush et al projected was a BIG LIE, it shocked them. It happened so fast that the public could not process it ... and so it did collectively what people do as individuals in similar circumstance: DENIAL. The media, the democratic party leaders, and the American people were generally not ready to adjust their thinking .... any more than the collective "they" have when other enlightened folk have delivered the message of truth.

Yesterday I mentioned Lewin's "Report From Iron Mountain on the Possibility and Desirability of Peace," a "novel" that was based on McNamara's summer of '63 study. (Lewin knew that the proposals that Kennedy was making, which were as shocking as what Gen. Clark is now saying -- because it is the same message of TRUTH -- had led to Dallas, and so he made his explosive book a novel.) I quote Lewin:

"War fills certain functions essential to the stability of our society; until other ways of filling them are developed, the war system must be maintained -- and improved in effectiveness. ...

The reader may not be prepared for some of its assumptions -- for instance, that most medical advances are viewed more as problem than progress; or that poverty is necessary and desirable, public postures by politicians to the contrary notwithstanding; or that standing armies are, among other things, social-welfare institutions in exactly the same sense as are old-people's homes and mental hospitals ... that the space program and the controversial antimissile missile and fallout shelter programs are understood to have the spending of vast sums of money, not the advancement of science or national defense, as their principal goals, and that military draft policies are only remotely concerned with defense."

I think that fits nicely with the first part of your post here. Your second point -- concerning the force that the power elite believes they control, but which in effect controls their every thought & move -- is fascinating. It is, of course, a preview of where this discussion leads....

[Dems Will Win]

181. H20 Man, I have a question.

Since you seem to have insider information that Fitzgerald will report the Plame indictments on July 14, 5 PM (which happens to be the 215th Birthday of BASTILLE DAY, the start of the French Revolution), and that Dubya and Cheney are going down, could we enlighten everyone here who the interim President of the United States will be?

The line of succession is not in operation here, even though Cheney and Bush will theoretically both be named unindicted co-conspirators on 2 charges of violating the Identities Act and violating their oaths of office.

So Hastert will not become the President nor Ted Stevens the VP.

Bush will choose his own successor, as Nixon did, one with whom he can strike a deal for a full pardon. It will all happen in a couple of weeks as the deaths and full story of the Plame case far outweighs even the story of Benedict Arnold, who only gave up one fort.

He and the new VP would then become the nominees in NYC, not Bush and Cheney.

Question is who is most likely?

The players are:

Colin Powell (who started the Plame investigation and is overthrowing the neo-cons)

Bill Frist

Tom Delay

John McCain

Who will it be? Or add your pick.

I already have mine. MEOW!

[H2O Man]

188. Fair question.

Although I think my information is public, not insider. (smile)

I think our country is at stake here. I'm not paranoid. I'm not blowing this out of proportion. I'm not bluffing, joking, or lying.

Listen: Although republicans would debate this -- I mean this in all sincerity -- I love this country. I love what it stands for, and all of the good it contains. But I also recognize that there has been plenty of evil ..... slavery, the genocide of the Native Americans, the oppression of women, the violence against children. For whatever reason(s) this evil, with its seeds of hatred, have come to full-bloom in this generation.

The bush administration -- which believes itself to be GOOD -- will fight tooth and nail to remain in power. They will NOT go gently into that good night, so to speak.

And so we are in something of a chess match. I do not think that on 7-14, the likes of bush & cheney will be taken away in chains. Oh, both of us ... No! all of us! .... we'd LOVE that, eh? But we can't risk tipping the board over, and destroying everything .... do you see what I'm saying?

On July 14th, I think that some of the information uncovered by the grand jury will become public. It will begin a new phase of discrediting the most vile criminals in the administration. But it has the potentialto become very ugly .... very, very ugly .... and so the forces that are on the "good" side, which include many of the honorable men and women in the CI/MI agencies, will move forward at the safest pace.

So bush will remain in office until the election. I doubt cheney will be on the republican ticket, even if he doesn't resign in disgrace before November. I'll say this: the middle class people who identify themselves as republicans will recognize that dick cheney is lower than Spiro Agnew. By September, cheney's fight to remain in power will divide the powers in the republican party. And that's good for US! Let them fight this out, and injure their party.

Patience is a good thing.

[tableturner]

189. H20, why specifically 7-14?

I will be holding my breath until then. I am desparate for them to be out of office. What is it about that date? Is this specific info from a source that actually knows, or is it via someone who is surmising? You seem so definitive in some respects with regard to this. Without revealing anything that would be a contravention of any confidences, can you give us any indication at all as to the concreteness of your main points? I guess I just want a little extra, again, without upsetting any of your connections, because I don't want to get my hopes up too much and then be disappointed. Understand, I don't doubt what you write, I am just so ultimately interested in these guys going down, that I have feelings akin to what children feel on Christmas Eve, if you know what I mean......

[Dems Will Win]

192. Doesn't Bush need a different person to be Pres, so he can be pardoned??

Wouldn't Fitzgerald reveal the whole case in the Grand Jury Report? If FTW, Cap Hill Blue and John Dean are correct, Bush is going to be charged as knowing the leak would be made and did nothing. If so I see Bush having only 2 options.

Bush will be forced to resign immediately by the Senate Republicans if named as an unindicted co-conspirator, unlike the Clinton impeachment which went all the way to the Senate. That's reason number one for Bush to resign by August. Senate Repubs can't run on the same ticket with an accused traitor responsible for the deaths of 70 people and the outing of Brewster, Jennings assets. Spector for example would lose.

Reason Number 2 for Bush to resign: He can't pardon himself as it would be overturned as a conflict of interest.

Leaves Bush with 2 options. Declare martial law and suspend the Congress and the Courts (he could say a nuke is loose in DC or trot out the anthrax again and shut Congress).

OR

Have Cheney resign, make a deal, Pardon for the Presidency, and then appoint Frist or Delay as Vice President. Then he resigns and gets his pardon on January 19, 2005. Bush will not trust Powell and so he is out.

See if he fights Fitzgerald, all the facts come out and he loses the election, leaving him with no pardon. Bush can always pardon Cheney and the others himself but he can't pardon himself!

That means he needs someone else he can trust, even after all the charges are public, to give him, George W. Bush, a pardon.

Otherwise, it would be up to President Kerry to pardon him. Not a good bet for Bush.

So will it be Frist or Delay? Frist could hold the South together somewhat, although he would no doubt lose to Kerry in all the hub-bub.

[H2O Man]

193. Gosh this is fun!

My wife and children are out on the lawn, yelling for me to get out there .... so you'll excuse me for trying to answer a couple of great questions in one brief post .... but I want to say I really like what both tableturner and Dems Will Win are saying! Love it.

Again, this is a big chess game, and my guess of 7-14 -- which I first made on DU in April -- is perhaps anticipating moves and feints. I've seen nothing since April that would make me think we are not progressing towards a "check" in 11 days -- not "check mate" perhaps, but "checks and balances" in the Constitutional sense! (grin)

Still, as I've said since April .... you have to know how far your enemy will go. I am not talking about george w. bush, who is an ass of little more depth than Ronald McDonald. I do mean those who put him in power.

When Clinton beat his daddy, those forces thought it would be a mere 4 year lull, with no specific threat to their entrenched power. But this is different. This is very different. Let me try to give an example: when the great leader Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr., was protesting for the right to drink coffee and go to the bathroom next to white folks, the power elite did not care. They don't drink coffee in diners; they don't use public restrooms. But when MLK threatened the economic system -- and oh yes he did! -- they killed him.

The power struggle going on today isn't about coffee and urinals. The enemy has the capacity to kill men like JFK, MLK, and RFK, and then have turds like Sean Hannity justify it on the evening news. But the public is waking up.

[tableturner]

195. Hate to be persistent, but.....

What is it about that specific date? Given that you used that date back in April, that at least gives some indication as to the degree of speculation contained in that statement relative to date. I think that even the prosecutor back in April could not have known that things would hit the fan on July 14. So that points to speculation. However, the naming of a specific date, in an of itself, points to the opposite of speculation. So please fill us in a little more! Inquiring minds want to know!!!

[H2O Man]

200. I'll say this:

I agree almost entirely with your last post .... except that I do not think there is a "prosecutor" yet.

We do have an attorney in charge of a grand jury investigation. And we have what Joe Klein called "Two other serious, surreptitious -- and quite possibly unprecedented -- battles ... going on: the intelligence community is at war with the White House, and the uniformed military is at war with the civilian leadership of the Pentagon." (Time, 7-5, pg 21)

While these three things over-lap, the part I think should be the main focus is the intel community vs the White House .... for the sake of our discussion, let's say that it is possible that CI/MI and related agencies have far more resources on this chess board that the attorney heading the Plame leak investigation.

It's fair to speculate that the White House is going to try to stall and avoid the 7-14 confrontation. But as we know from the story of Omar the slave, and his attempt to escape death, people can twist and they can turn .... but there's a destiny waiting. Martin Luther King used to say that there's a moral arch to the universe that swings wide yet sure.

Again, I agree with your expressed opinion.

[tableturner]

201. So why that specific date?

If it is speculation, what specific elements led you to that date or a date close to that? It would be interesting to see your reasoning.

On edit: What's specifically happening 7-14 to cause this "confrontation?

[Dems Will Win]

202. Yes inquiring Minds wish to know

Methinks it is mostly that the date is 2 weeks from the end of the Grand Jury, no?

Fitz took 2 weeks to dot the i's and cross the t's, no?

Then he drops the first shoe and Waxman and the CIA show the other shoe in private to Frist and Hastert, who then run out of the door screaming.

Then I think there will be about 2 or 3 weeks in which Cheney resigns, Frist is appointed VP by his own Senate, then Bush resigns before the DNC or during the Olympics maybe and President Frist is nominated.

Hey! Where is CATS AGAINST FRIST when you need them? CAF! We need you to organize the Kerry campaign against President Frist!!

[shraby]

203. How is a special prosecutor chosen?

There must be some kind of procedure in place. Anyone know?

[Zynx]

204. Nice scenario, except

Presidential pardons *cannot* be reviewed, conflict of interest, bribery, or anything else. There is no mechanic to overturn them.

[shraby]

205. In order to pardon anyone,

someone has to be convicted. A case with this complexity will extend far beyond November. In fact, by the time they get all geared up to even start the trial, November will probably be history. The Republican party really doesn't have anyone but Bush to run for president unless it's McCain who would have an iota of winning. That means Bush will still be on the ticket maybe with McCain as v.p. Would McCain run after what Bush did to him already?

[Dems Will Win]

211. Actually, that's not true

Ford pardoned Nixon from all FUTURE prosecutions. That's what President Frist would do for Dubya on Jan. 19, 2005.

And the President can in no way pardon himself. Remember there were investigations about Clinton's pardon of Marc Rich being a quid pro quo.

You can't get a quid any proer than quoing yourself.

Maybe that is Cheney's advice in the Plame case to Bush:

"Go Quid Pro Quo Yourself!"

[hedda_foil]

216. Nope. Look at Ford's pardon of Nixon.

Nixon was neither tried nor convicted. Ford pardoned him pre-emptively to make sure it never happened. It was part of the deal. The question is whether a president can pre-emptively pardon himself, because if it's possible, * will surely do it. He certainly has the power to pardon his co-conspirators. The real question IMHO is whether (and how)the CI/MI will prevent that.

[shraby]

208. The Plame game will change the

dynamics in congress and that plus the torture probe which implicates Rummy and Ashcroft will screw up any plans to have a national emergency. Bush and company are at the mercy of whatever comes down the pike at em. In fact, it might change the dynamics of congress enough for the Democrats to be able to get the papers on the torture question and speed up that investigation.

[KoKo]

206. Beautifully said, Loud Sue.. Clapping hands! and H20man and

others have a wonderful conversation going on here bringing together most of the important pieces of this giant puzzle for all to read and think about.
:toast:

[0007]

190. Wow!

:kick: * :kick: * :kick: * :kick: * :kick: *

A Five Star Thread

[Wind Dancer]

217. Excellent thread!

I have had so many thoughts and questions for the last 30+ years that are being discussed in this one thread. I have been trying to put the pieces together for years but we are only privy to small bits of info.

This is a great forum to share and bounce ideas, theories, etc. so I thank everybody for contributing. My hope has always been that the Plame investigation would reveal far more than we could expect but I am afraid * will walk away from this with clean hands.

Gotta run now but will check in later. Great links and lots more to digest from the wonderful DUer's that have helped me keep my sanity.



:toast:

[SharonAnn]

221. Unbelievable thread! Thanks so much for all this perspective!

Not just the information is important. It's the perspective, the various analyses, and the discussion of alternative scenarios that are really important for understanding.

This is incredible quality, thank you all so very, very much!

Now, HAPPY INDEPENDENCE DAY!

[H2O Man]

226. Substitute "F 9-11" & "MM" for "JFK" & "OS"

On 1-15-1992, Oliver Stone appeared before the National Press Club in Washington, DC (and a national audience watching on C-SPAN) to discuss his movie "JFK," and the outrage being expressed by the major medias. Compare the fear and hatred aimed at Stone, and the crap we hear aimed at Michael Moore:

"I have been accused by a number of people, some of them journalists, of a distortion of history. If there is any common thread of attacks running through those claims of the critics of JFK, it is a notion that somehow there is an accepted, settled, respected, carefully thought out and researched body of history about the assassination of John F. Kennedy. All of which I have set out deliberately to subvert, using as my weapon the motion picture medium and taking as my target the impressionable young, who will believe anything as long as it is visual. This distortion of history has come at me from all quarters, although almost entirely, it must be said, from people old enough to know better. And it ignores, deliberately and carefully, the fact that there is no accepted history of these events..."

[shraby]

227. I find it interesting that the John F. Kennedy files

surrounding his death were sealed for 70 or 75 years, I'm not sure which. This could only have been done to protect certain people, not for any other reason that I can think of. I know some have been released, but have all of them?

[Stephanie]

290. and Jackie's oral history, sealed until after the death of her children

we may never hear it

[coeur_de_lion]

228. even though I'm "not worthy" I will stick my 2 cents in

I don't know how you can say for sure that the Plame case will come to a head by 7/14. I don't understand where you are getting your information. But I desperately want you to be right. I don't know what the result would be for * and cheney but I'm thinking probably not much. The fact that the case will be widely publicized pleases me because at least * will have the devil of a time getting elected. He will probably not be elected. I wouldn't be on this board if I didn't wish as much as everyone else that * would go down in flames; but I don't really think it will happen. The most, in my very humble opinion that will happen to him is that he loses in Nov. That will be enough for me. I would love to see him in jail or impeached, but after reading all or most of the thread on this I think it won't happen.

RE: MM and Oliver Stone -- nice comparison. Although I think what MM did was far more courageous than what Stone did. Stone made a movie almost 30 years after the events; it had little bearing on the political events of the time. Michael Moore made a movie about events taking place even as I type this -- and he took on politicians who have the power to ruin him. Brave man. Stone is an historian; Moore is an in-your-face activist.

So I have a couple of questions, if you don't mind answering them.

1) Let's pretend it is 7/14. What happens today? How does the Plame case evolve, and in what manner will * be exposed? How does the * administration react? What happens next?

2) What do YOU think the ultimate impact of F-911 will be?

I hope you can indulge me!

p.s. I "peeked" at your profile. You and my Dad would get along great. After 20 years in the Air Force, he retired and got his masters degree. Then he became a psychiatric social worker. I'm hoping I can convince him to join DU -- he has a lot to say and I think he would enjoy threads like this one.

[H2O Man]

229. Good questions! Let's do it!

This thread has slowed down a little .... of course, it's the eve of a holiday .... plus it just has to slow down. But let's see if we can get things going again.

I can't say FOR SURE it will be the 14th of July. But I can -- and will -- say I am convinced that on that day, there will be news that will stun the public. The administration will be exposed as criminal in that some high-ranking White House officials will be named as those who exposed Plame.

While Fox News etc will attempt to down-play the significance, more information will confirm that this goes up to cheney & rove. Things will immediately heat up, however, as more CI/MI assets explain to the public the nature of Plame's work. By early August, the general public will know that dick cheney et al exposed Plame to disrupt an investigation that includes the Saudis and Pakistanis. By 9-7, cheney will no longer be on the ticket for November.

"Divide and conquer" is usually a republican tactic. But now it will workagainst them. Bush will try a bold move in replacing cheney, but will lose to Kerry in November. You will see other republicans forced to distance themselves from bush, as he becomes angrier and more vindictive than he is now.

The most important thing in addressing this situation is to beat bush in November. After that, the Plame & related issues can be dealt with. Remember that early on here, we discussed the balance of powers -- at this time, there is no balance. The administration was selected by the supreme court, and the Congress (House & Senate) has hardly dared contest issues. But that changes after November.

Still more important is how people in every town and city across this land react.

[Kimber Scott]

231. IF you are right... IF there is an all powerful cabal of money men

running this country and the world, then how does this Grand Jury have a chance? What's not to stop them from changing the outcome of the investigation in the same way you have said they manipulated the Supreme Court into selecting Bush?

I have long thought there is some kind of Wizard at work behind the curtain, and I am very tempted to believe it, but if I truly believe it, then I would have to think there is absolutely no hope for what you say is going to happen - Bush and Cheney going up the river.

If this Wizard selected Bush/Cheney to be their fronts guys, then what have Bush and Cheney done to piss them off? Everybody's making money in Iraq. Plame was rendered incapable of pulling the curtain back to expose the Wizard. And, if they could manipulate the Supreme Court, why couldn't they manipulate a Grand Jury?

I'd love for you to be right. I'd love to see everyone in this administration hauled off in chains, but I just don't see how it could happen, if these guys are so all powerful.

[shraby]

232. Iraq was supposed to roll over

much quieter and then the oil would be secure. Instead, Iran is infiltrating, is suspected of having nukes, the Kurds are encroaching from the North, and there is yet a good possiblity of a civil war. Things are definitely not good for the plans that were hatched. Bush and co. have screwed up royaly and possibly beyond repair. They have to go so the grand jury will be left to their own devices.
The CI/MI are not happy with the treatment they got from the Bush cabal so things that could be hidden are instead being revealed. Bush and the rest are in deep doo-doo and it will be impossible to extract themselves from this one because the powers that be don't want them around anymore. They'll just bide their time until they get another shot at the white house.

[Kimber Scott]

235. Ok, I can understand that, but if Bush is just a puppet then the plans

for Iraq would have been made elsewhere and executed from on high. If these people didn't know Iraq wouldn't roll over, then they had the same information Bush had. So, who's fault is that?

I could see where maybe these guys got Bush in office and then he went to war, IN SPITE of them. Then they could get pissed off. But, if they were really running things, and things have gotten as messed up as they have, where does the buck really stop?

There seems to be a link missing in this theory of George pissed somebody off and now he's fired - by anyone other than us, the voters. I'm not connecting the dots.

[shraby]

238. Bush's bunch mishandled the war

not enough men, not enough security and on and on, which botched the operation up badly.

[Kimber Scott]

243. And, why, if this is the case, when things were going wrong didn't

Bush's "employer" tell him how to fix it and DEMAND he do so?


When I imagine a Global Overlord - some group of monied men, secret corporation owners - I suppose, what I see is something like the Eye in "Lord of the Rings." I imagine these people have infiltrated every corner of our government and play it's every nuance to their advantage and to the disadvantage of the rest of the planet. They know all, they see all, they (attempt to) control all. I get these ideas from reading conspiracy theories such as this one. That is the impression I feel I'm supposed to take away from the theory, anyway. So, when we get to the president is a "front-man" theory and he only does the bidding of the Eye, I'm thinking the Eye should have given him a better plan.

Bush messing everything up denies the puppet theory. A puppet only dances at the whim of the master. If the puppet falls down, it's because the master tangled the strings. So... there has to be more to this than that. See what I'm saying?

(Really, the more I think about this, the more I think there is less to this than that. I'm thinking, maybe, Bush is just an idiot who weaseled his way into the White House.)

[H2O Man]

246. I want people to think of the community they live in.

It may be a rural village, or a town in the mid-west, or a city. In all cases, you have "politicians" ..... mayors, councilmen/women, supervisors, board members, etc. They are the "public face" of your community.

But they don't run the show. The chairman of a county republican party is an errand-boy.Oh, he can connect someone with a job here, or a promotion there. But that's not the REAL power. It's the banker. Or the fellow who controls the interests in the real estate. It's the guy who owns that construction company that has trucks and workers on half the projects you see. You don't tend to see these men and women at public hearings. But if they need a zoning variance for their project, and your neighborhood opposes it .... it goes through. You may delay it by a month or a year. But their projects happen

Now, think if the most obnoxious kid from your high school -- who comes from the family that owns the fuel company, and always gets its way -- that kid was an obnoxious drunk. His dad, a WW2 vet, tries everything. Buys the son a car dealership that flops. Buys him controlling interest in the minor league ball team, etc etc. Finally dad buys the kid the mayor's office....because he not only can buy A job, he can buy ANY job.

What is the only thing that can really get that obnoxious kid outta office? His own arrogance. His sense of power is inflated, and he mistakes not being held responsible with being beyond consequences of his own actions. But life is full of surprises. And that's where we are today.

[Kimber Scott]

248. Ok. I can put my teeth into that. It's a money thing, but it's not a

centralized cabal with some bunch of secret cronies pulling the strings of the world. The daddy's got money angle and daddy has friends with money but now daddy's friends are pissed off for helping daddy get his little boy in the White House because boy is an ass is much easier to swallow than a global conspiracy and much more believable. I get it now.

[H2O Man]

252. Right .... they're just rich folk...

They aren't gods. They aren't smarter than other people. But they control the purse strings. "Follow the money" and you'll find them.

We sometimes imagine them as smarter and more powerful than they are. Remember when you were a child, and your parents told you that to see a picture accurately, you have to step out of the frame .... which simply means you have to be objective ....

[Kimber Scott]

262. Actually, this lets me step back into the frame.

I think I was stepping out of the frame when I was getting into the "Eye" theory and all that. LOL!

My husband always tells me I should read Captains and Kings, or some such book, and the way he describes it is there are these corporate guys sitting in a board room someplace ruling the world. Now, in reality I can see ruling a small section of a piece of a certain industry and I suppose, if that industry is oil, a few guys could control a lot of the world. Heck, maybe there is an Eye out there, now that I think of it that way...

This is too confusing. It really doesn't matter if I know about it, or not, does it?

[glitch]

298. don't forget the same people are on many many boards - not just one

company or even one industry.

[kohodog]

233. We need to think about the word "Republican"

This group may call themselves Republican, but at best they are facist. And do you really think Bush and Cheny are pulling the strings? Follow the money and I the only conclusion I come to Corporate greed and influence. And in a scary way, the individuals are secondary to the systems they created, not unlike Hal in "2001". Ultimatly Corporastions are created to make profit and while those at the top are making tons of money they are expendible because the only true measure of Corporation, by definition, is profitibility.
So we need to dump Bushco, restore civil liberties, and then get to work. A change qt the top is good, but only a start.

[coeur_de_lion]

241. from your keyboard to God's ears H2O

I'm gonna be good and go back to church, and every single Sunday between now and 9/7 I'll pray very hard for things to happen exactly as you have said.

We can already see that * is out of control. He is losing his temper some in public. Cheney is most definitely out of control. When people get emotional and under pressure they start making big mistakes. If they are freaking out in public one can only imagine what goes on behind closed doors! Let's hope their trend of getting impatient and having little mini outbursts in public continues. And escalates into major outbursts. And that the mistakes they are making get bigger and bigger until the administration implodes.

Now, the second question --

Let's pretend it is one year from today (7/3/05) and the election is long over. What if any impact did the movie F-911 have on the outcome of the election? The movie has been available on video for months now -- how did it affect the American public's decision in the 2004 election?

[faithnotgreed]

244. arbusto - i have enjoyed reading you here... as far as f 9/11

and its impact on the vote in 2004: one can make a more complicated and historical argument than i but what i think is testament is that every single day since the movie was released there are multiple posts here on du giving us an inside look at what is truly going on in our country - at least as far as freedom and truth are concerned.
and as the movie has expanded to more and more conservative areas (ok except r fridley theatre in iowa!) the posts here are incredulous. one, that the movie is even playing in their n'hood, but also that it is receiving the wide emotions that it is and people are standing outside with voter registration forms and mm teams up with moveon and they have a nationwide community meeting and it goes on and on...

the wizard is being exposed all over our country. for some it is not a surprise, for some it is not enough just to see this film but we have all seen in our own communities that it is something BIG. and it will definitely impact this election.

it has provided a rallying event (something akin to the true scene that played itself out here in washington that inauguration day 2001).
a bit like then though much broader this time, people go back to their homes and work and they have something tangible, that is recorded and is truth, that is incredibly well made , and people now know things they had not dared to think possible on that day 3
1/2 yrs ago.

i admire your church attendance! and your keen posts...

[coeur_de_lion]

260. thanks faith, for your explanation and kind words

I so admire MM for doing this movie. I know everybody here on DU knew all or most of what was in the movie. But it is one thing to know it, and another thing to see it on the big screen.

I wonder, too, what we will be saying about this movie as the years go by. I'd like to think that history will conclude that it was one of the turning points in the 2004 election. Bless MM.

I am a huge Catholic. I almost always go to church once a week to get my God fix. But if I had been born and raised Buddhist (or Hindu or Methodist or Presbyterian) I would be going to those services. I don't think that a person's religion is necessarily all that important in the scheme of things. Just as long as they believe in some sort if "higher power" and live the Golden Rule. And I never have believed that all my Protestant friends are going to hell in a hat basket because they aren't Catholic.

You didn't ask me a darn thing about my religion, did you? I always feel obligated to defend my Catholicism even when I haven't been asked to. Oh, well. I guess if I didn't believe in a higher power all this corrupt politics a la * and Co. would drive me insane.

[faithnotgreed]

264. wow. your last sentence hits me right where i (try to) live!

a liberal believer!

i truly thank you for saying that.
i, on the other hand, am not a huge catholic, but am a huge believer and we really are all the same. you didnt ask me either! but i was raised evangelical friend which is part of the quaker movement. this taught me, much like i know of catholicism, to combine love and social service with faith.

awesome. really. i know just how you feel about defending your religious framework. i have thought so very many times that i wish others could have some belief to hold on to because it is the only way i have learned to be calm in the face of these storms. and they are storms as we all know!
but we are all from so many different and important backgrounds....

and yes, michael moore is a voice in our growing wilderness. we are truly all in this together. i have to literally thank God for michael. i definitely agree that this movie will be seen as a seminal moment. no doubt it already is seen as that. again, just on the fact that we can all be part of something, this movement and this medium has captured everything so beautifully and brought us together! the stories all over the place are enough to give anyone hope
as im sure you know he is a catholic as well and said he felt about a month ago that Jesus had a part in all this (his movie getting out)!

[coeur_de_lion]

270. I didn't know MM was Catholic -- that explains a few things

I never once thought about what religion might have had to do with his activism. The one good thing you can always say about the Catholic church -- they encourage social activism. Think of the nuns standing in front of the tanks in the Philippines in Aquino's time.

Ain't that sweet? Here we have the * claiming he invaded Iraq because God told him to. And the guy who exposes the * cabal for what they are -- money hungry lying crooks -- also says he was guided by God in making the film.

I have a friend who turned me on to DU, who is planning to go to the anti-war demonstrations in NYC in August. I told her to stick with the nuns because at least half those cops are Catholic, and they will leave the nuns alone. I sure hope she heeds my advice. NYC cops are notoriously brutal, and I don't want to see her get hurt. Who knows, though -- maybe they are just as disgusted with * for exploiting 9/11 for political gain. Maybe they will leave the protesters alone.

Without some kind of faith I would have given up on this country in 2000. I have to believe that the good guys will win in the end. We are all desperate for * to leave the whitehouse. Maybe we should just have faith. I don't know about you but I've never prayed so hard for anything in my life. If * wins in Nov. I don't know what I'm going to do. Probably join the protesters in NYC.

[faithnotgreed]

297. wise advice...

i really hope it doesnt turn ugly in august. its hard to tell what the mood will be at that point but with all the anger thats out there and in the heat of the moment, things can happen. but i will trust that for the most part people will make their voices heard and their presence felt! but that it wont lead to violence.

as weve been talking about though, i wouldnt want to be in this country without giving it all up to God first. i would be one angry soul. im already outraged but you know its the basically controlled kind!

and yes - isnt it great that michael is catholic and said outright that Jesus was with him on this whole thing! social justice you bet.
and he knows of what he speaks because i can only imagine the tactics used against him - and by people who call themselves christians no less.

i thought recently that i better go back and read dietrich bonhoeffer to get some advice on how to handle all this.

hope you had a energizing and peaceful mass....

[coeur_de_lion]

276. Michael Moore's July 4th message

This has appeared elsewhere on DU, but I thought I would insert it into this thread:

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php?messageDate=2004-07-04

You gotta love the Letterman "Top 10" list.

[VoteDemocratic2004]

230. I want to see Novak go to jail

He looks so smug like nothing can harm him and I would kill to be a fly on the wall when he gets arrested.

[shraby]

236. This is a little out of left field, but

I read someplace that the anti-Christ was supposed to rule for 42 months. That he would have a wound in his head but would survive. Don't remember anything else about it, but if Bush is the anti-Christ, 42 months of rule would put the end of his rule on July 20, 2004. I've been thinking about it and the wound to his head could either be the fact that there is something wrong with his head is why he talks so odd, or the wound to his head could be the loss of Cheney. Anyone have any more info on this prophecy?

[faithnotgreed]

240. wow. i have read this thread from the beginning but havent posted.

now i post in response to this.

this is something to be highly studied and i like your idea that the "wound to the head" could be the removal of cheney
because as we all pretty much know, cheney (among others) orchestrates the movement.

* is the "manster" (movie from 1959) and to have cheney "surgically" removed could be an indicator to which you speak

thank you.

[shraby]

242. Your welcome faithnotgreed.

I also translated and tried to deciper Nostradamus because I wanted to see for myself how accurate the translations were. There is one quatrain that speaks of three brothers. Erika Cheetham thought it meant the Kennedys. She is wrong. The three brothers are the Muslims, Jews and Christians..they all are based on the same God, but each went their separate ways. Interesting book, Nostradamus is. Many times while decipering the quatrains the hairs would stand up on the back of my head when he would be spot on.

[faithnotgreed]

247. truly awesome. i know that many dont like to think

about the a-c but it is well worth studying (and for me praying) to connect the dots as this is playing out. your study is far beyond mine and i thank you for sharing it. it definitely has its place in this conversation

there is not one doubt for me that * is completely contrary to what Jesus teaches and he (and those with him in this grand spider web of control) are carrying out the depths of things i cannot begin to fathom.
and youre absolutely right - we are all brothers and sisters and each of these religions worships the same God of abraham. to single out any of these as the enemy , with the intention of war and control is just beyond words.

i truly feel sorry for those (i mean regular citizens) who follow as blind because i think many mean well but cannot let themselves open their minds to what is right there to see.
it is mind blowing, no doubt.....

[shraby]

250. Many cannot see but are not blind.

It's their minds that are blind. Actually the period was supposed to be seven years of trials and tribulations. 42 months is half of that. What will the other 42 months bring? I hate to think.
Many countries now have nukes and how long will it take before one of them decides to use them before their enemy does?
The middle east has always been a hot bed of trouble. Wise people turn down the heat when a kettle is boiling. Bush has instead turned up the heat. Might get nasty in the second 42 months.

[faithnotgreed]

255. your first point - i agree. my mom is a great example

and probably many others parents are as well. to have the continuing cycle of war and conflict (ww2 and onwards) is more than they can emotionally bear. clearly the late 60s brought 2 entirely different generations at an astounding crossroads of war and country.
that and the consistent cultural recycling and re-enforcement of what it means to be "patriotic american". some mini cultural revolutions later and we have each passing generation more exposed to the truth.
its more complicated than that and there are many of these subsequent generations who are literally fat and content to the extent that their minds allow

as to the 2nd point. i often think of that. i think now does kerry really WANT to take over this absolute mess! it is his duty and he will perform it, but yes those other 42 months will truly be a testament of where we go from here....

[shraby]

256. Looking at Kerry's history

and how and what he did is a testament to his character. He went to Vietnam when others all over the country didn't want to go. He performed with honor. He then came home and did what he could at that young age to try to bring the war to an end.
He then went into the senate to serve his country even further. Now he is willing to take on George's mess and try to turn it around so we can once again have an honorable, prosperous country. He is going to need all the support and luck he can get once in office. I hope the country hasn't been taken too far. God help us all if George has ruined the country beyond repair.

[faithnotgreed]

257. amen. if i let my mind go i can imagine either scenario. kerry

does bring integrity and knowledge to the constitutional table. oh how we need that.

given the absolute black hole of integrity that * has brought, on the other hand, we have no real idea of how far and deep this country has been taken. we have been, in a word, hijacked, and kerry absolutely needs every one of us to fight this fight with him.
that can take many forms and time will tell of course.

in light of this who do you think he should choose for vp? this may not even be the important question at this point but i do like to hear from people who are clearly informed and engaged...

and given historical context of vp (until recently of course!) is this the proper use of someone like clark, for example. i feel he brings such power. it has been argued that he knows so very much of what has gone in and been done to our military, among other things, and so is subsequently such an intriguing threat to the * power structure that he would be the perfect vp

what do you think on this highly speculative question

[shraby]

263. Kerry knows the strengths and

weaknesses of the people he is choosing from. So much more that I do that I couldn't even venture to guess who would be better. Whoever he chooses, I feel it will be because they can help get him elected and also help clean up the mess the country is in.

I like Edwards because of his vigor and he must be a tough, smart critter judging from his background of taking on corporations for injured people. He may make a much better Attorney General though.

Clark has experience in dealing with other countries and leading in the military. He is also highly intelligent and I'm sure will be thoughtful in whatever assignment he has.

Gephardt I'm sure is an honorable man, intelligent, thoughtful but he has no spark to him so as v.p. I don't think he would pull many extra votes for Kerry.

These apparently are the main contenders, and whichever one gets it, it will sort of hamstring them as v.p. because historically the v.p. has nothing much to do except to be there in case the president dies.

[tableturner]

237. I ask again, what's so special about 7/14?

Why that date, H2O? What is it about 7/14, or has that date been fed to you by someone in the know? You seem to imply that, but you also admit to some speculation. So what is so special about that day, and in general, how do you know that?

[H2O Man]

249. I've answered that

the best I am able to. And on July 14, around 11:30 am est, you may well be asking the same question, wondering how in the heck I "knew" way back in April. I've said for a couple days now: don't get led off track wondering "how?" -- focus on "why?" -- and I know you are asking "why that date?" ...... but the date isn't the important thing here. Now how's that for an example of Lao Tse's saying, "True words always seem paradoxical, but no other form of teaching can take its place" ?

[shraby]

253. Because you are well read,

intelligent and not asking anything of me except to accept your words, I'll believe you know what you know and not question it. But I will be happy when I find out you were right. If you are wrong, I'm sure you aren't far off the mark on the date. Someone is going to bite the bullet on the Plame stunt and that's the truth!

Is it possible for us to figure out why you knew?

edited to ask question.

[shraby]

254. In an earlier post you said:

"the second, and far more important, is because what is potentially going to occur will create a Constitutional crisis unlike anything that we have dealt with in our nation's history. Older folks who recall the Watergate years -- which absolutely pale in comparison -- know that our federal government, with its theoretic separation of powers, is indeed fragile. This is not a game. Our country's future hangs in the balance."

Could you elaborate on the Constitutional crisis part? Could it be because the whole administration is up to their armpits in deep water and may need replaced from top to bottom? Possibly even some of congress involved also? What about the Supreme Court?

edited to add

[H2O Man]

259. I'll try to answer these two posts in the morning......

I'm too tired to do justice to these important issues right now, shraby. But I do want to say this, before I call it a night: man! you really started something with your post on here! This has been an adventure! I've really been enjoying it, and I know that a lot of other people have, too!

Also: what I know, or how I know it, isn't really important. It's only significance is in the context of the on-going conversations on here. I'm merely another person who enjoys DU. If I've added anything of value on here, it's been that I've tried to demonstrate -- on this thread -- how to organize the imput of ideas from a group of smart, sincere, and insightful people. There are no "new" ideas on this thread .... not really .... but they are being presented in an orderly form, which leads us to new insights, and allows us to approach new conclusions.

Think about that: because that is, in fact, the way that ANY organization -- from a town board, a newspaper, or even a CI/MI agency -- needs to function. (The bush administration, on the other hand, either reached the WRONG conclusion before examining evidence on Iraq & WMDs ..... or else knew there were none, and "attacked" before the UN inspectors could document that.)

[shraby]

261. I'll let you off the hook for tonight

get some well deserved rest. :hi: Goodnight

[leftchick]

266. A question when you are back H20 Man....."Shadow Powers?"

I am guessing the "shadow powers" consist of mainly the BFEE which encompasses a huge and diverse group of greedy evil doers. Perhaps I need to re-read some old DU threads on the BFEE to refresh my memory. Do you have any idea who else may be involved? I keep thinking about the Christian Reconstructionists and their involvement in voting machine companies among their many "interests". Perhaps knowing who is not important, just knowing their intent is enough?

[H2O Man]

271. I think "Farewell America" still holds up.

Earlier on this long and wonderful thread, I spoke with a friend about Irish history. While Daniel Patrick Moynihan was far from perfect, he at times was a senator of the "golden age" stature. I've also made comments about the murder of JFK. So any book that incorporates his private investigation into Dallas is likely pretty solid.

Behind the military, behind the industries, behind virtually every money-related venture ..... is oil. And when we think of oil, I'd say this: behind Saudi Arabia, behind Iraq, behind the Canadian sands, behind the Russian supplies ..... is Texas. There is a part of "Texas" that USES things like the christian right, the flag, the republican party, as it uses a whole wide realm of symbols and "-isms" for its own greedy, selfish, amoral purposes. And this "texas" as agents in many lands, wearing many hats.

That's what I think. Of course, I keep an open mind ..... I really like the information that people are presenting here on DU .... and especially on this and a few related threads.

[H2O Man]

268. I'll try to be objective.....

but I'll admit that this is hard. I've been alive for quite a while. I've walked the streets of a good many towns and cities across this country (and some outside this country!). I've had the opportunity to live in what literally must be "the best of times and the worst of times" ..... Dallas, the '60s, Watergate, and on and on. But I've never seen anything that compares to the entrenched evil of this administration, and the acquiescence of the vast majority of the middle class and of the poor.

I've said several times on here: know exactly how far your enemy is willing to go in a struggle to stay in power. Now, in order to do this, we have to examine exactly what resources this administration has .... and that includes a closer look at the balance of powers.

The far-right owns five seats on the Supreme Court. The single best book on this is "The Betrayal of America," by Vince Bugliosi. He documents how the political & economic & family connections between the bush administration and the court presents not only conflicts of interest, but also THE DENIAL OF CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS TO AMERICAN CITIZENS. In fact -- in 2000 -- to the MAJORITY of American citizens. And so, because of the nature of the court system, no matter how honest and how honorable the good men & women at the mid-levels, and no matter how true the cause of that majority of Americans .... this court will rule in favor of those political/economic/ family interests.

We have today a group of people in the Congress -- meaning both the House and Senate -- who are equal to the lowest of moral capacity ever to inhabit that great place (congress) .... what makes the majority of the special is that they reflect the absolute least understanding of their role, of history, and of the Constitution and all it implies. And -- you know -- the way our nation is set up now, the people who really should be in congress are not, because they refuse to "rise above their principles," meaning to sell their soul to the highest bidder.

As a result, we are not in any condition to endure a constitutional crisis ..... any more than an out-of-shape man, who has never exercised a day in his life, but who sits in a drunken stupor in front of his tv watching reruns of Rocky movies, would be ready to fight for the heavyweight championship of the world tomorrow.

So that is the context of the problem we now face. We have an administration that wraps itself in a flag while it trashes the Constitution. It has committed so many evil acts that there are times when I speak with some of my most enlightened associates, and we wonder: is America dead?

To try to hold this administration responsible for the outright crimes it has committed will require that balance of power that at this time is lacking. But we still have some very good cards in our hand. The agencies like CI/MI etc .... that in the past (and at times now) we associate with denying those constitutional protections are now actually looking to resuscitate the Bill of Rights. Career military men like Gen. Wesley Clark are saying we need to re-examine the Jeffersonian vs Hamiltonian ideas of government. Vietnam veterans are saying they are willing to struggle for democracy in the United States.

So we have a seed of democracy. And then we need to look at those people -- many of them young people -- who when things looked bleak for the 2004 election, began to tear up the ground with their Howard Dean campaign. They exposed the fact that there is fertile ground for that seed of democracy. I don't subscribe to the idea that the democratic party co-opted the Dean movement. No, those Dean people woke the sleeping giant. And as this builds .... more and more Senators and Representatives are finding the courage to stand up for America. Kennedy, Biden, and more.

So we are going into a huge fight now. It's a fight for control of the direction we head in. The administration is corrupt: it came to power by corruption; it rules by corruption; and it will cling to power in the most corrupt of ways. And that balance of power is not healthy enough to fully withstand that corrupting influence. Even when the most powerful people (or:especially when...) are the MOST CORRUPT!!

And that's where we are today.Our chances of coming out of this, and having a constitutional democracy intact in a year, are about 1 in 20. But it's the only chance we have. So let's take it .... but let's move to a higher level of maturity and seriousness in order to increase our chances of victory. Let's do it!

[H2O Man]

274. "Is it possible for us to figure out

why you knew?" Hmmmmm. Sure.

Listen: remember when Kerry said people in Europe wanted him to win in November? Well, you and I know that's true .... even though, for obvious reasons, Kerry can't say exactly who these people are. But we can all figure it out.

But it's not just Europeans. Or just Canadians. It's our brothers and sisters in Africa, too. On 6-25, there was an African leader, from the "good old days" .... a man connected to Stephen Biko of the Black Conciousness movement, and associated with Nelson Mandela of the ANC.... on television, discussing the dangers of this "patriot act," and related issues. This is a man who has met with bush before, and has -- if you'll excuse me for saying this -- looked for bush's soul .... but found it dormant .... and this man represents a significant number of intelligent people very interested in the issues we are discussing.

I said that to say this: people outside of the USA know what is happening. We're often in that frame I described in a post on here last night .... and so we have to be able to set out of that frame to see the picture. Sometimes we might even stand next to a Canadian, or a European, or an African to discuss that big picture. (That's why I keep saying people should read "Farewell America!") And, oh yes, I was on that show, very briefly, in an unimportant role, with my African friend. (grin)

[Occulus]

280. You remind me strongly

of someone I know.

[cease_fire]

265. The reason for the date is....

Robert Novak published his information about Plame on July 14, 2003.

[floda]

267. the date of the Butler report

The Independent on Sunday added that Blair's Downing Street office would come under fire in the report by Lord Butler, which is due to be published on July 14.

[Pallas180]

269. July 14 3003 to july 14 2004. Does that imply there is a statute

of limitations for the Grand Jury sitting and that they must come
out with their indictments then, or FORGET IT?

[H2O Man]

272. Grand juries

have several very important purposes. The one we are all the most familiar with is, of course, to weigh evidence and return indictments when warrented.

A second, and in my opinion more fascinating & powerful purpose is to INVESTIGATE possible crimes. This is what the boys at the White House have become familiar with. When you have a bright and honest attorney leading such an investigation, he or she can cut through the crap in a manner that NO other investigatory agent can.

All evidence that I am aware of indicates that the boys at the White House thought this investigation would be a pantomime that allowed them to cover their tracks. Remember, these skunks were SO CONFIDENT that when Wilson appeared on MSNBC's "Countdown," they sent Keith Olbermann three e-mails of "talking points" that they believed would distract attention from the truth of his book.

Mistake. Not only did Olbermann have the balls to expose their crap, but Wilson kept the focus entirely on their crimes. I believe that this grand jury has done much the same: it's had the balls and the focus to expose these White House officials as the shitheads they are.

People like Wilson, Plame, and friends are as much smarter and more decent than rove, cheney, and scooter, as Olbermann is smarter and more decent than that turd Robert Novak. Like John Dean said, the White House "should understand that they have picked a fight with the wrong fellow."

[Occulus]

282. I've been trying to spread the word

that this is going on. People constantly ask me, "Valerie who?" Even when I present the facts in chronological order, I'm not exactly believed.

I wonder what they'll say if/when this breaks...

Oh... is it a matter of when at this point? Or is it still an if matter?

[Fla Dem]

273. Why isn't Bob Novak already in jail ?

He could clear up who leaked the identity of Joe Wilson's wife. He knows for God's sake. So what if he declares reporter's privilege for not revealing a confidential source. Plenty of reporters have been put in jail for not cooperating with law enforcement. And this was a major crime, try treason! He should also be charged for revealing classified information, that's treason too !!

[flpeach]

275. What a great thread!!

I have so enjoyed this thread!! H20Man and others, you are so full of knowledge I feel so privileged and humbled to be here and I thank you all for sharing!

John Dean said once that he believed that Wilson and Plame should wait to see who is indicted and then smack a good ole civil suit on them, and that will bring out even more information. Any thoughts on this?

Again, thank you for this thread!! I am not as well read as some of you and I appreciate very much your sharing information.

[hedda_foil]

277. kick!

Too much going on in this thread to let it drop.

[Pallas180]

283. I agree, and I wrote CNN so. He should be off the air AND in jail. n/t

. With 40 years experience he knew very well not to expose the name
of a covert agent, but as the mouthpiece of the administration in the
media he felt no compunction to safeguard her identity. Only to do the
bidding of the GOP ratpack. I don;t believe he even knew how much covert action he was undermining and exposing to enemies of America.

I wholeheartedly agree with Fla Dem.

If Ashcroft wasn't the AG, Novak would be sitting in a jail cell, as
Starr did to that woman, until he gave up his source.

[Pallas180]

284. As to why Dimson sealed records of Papa & Reagan, as mentioned

above:

H20, am I close in suspecting that Papa as CIA chief sold or gave
Saudi Arabia weapons of mass destruction, nukes, chemicals etc not only as CIA but in exchange for the 1.5 Billion Dollars the Saudis have bestowed upon the dimson family ????

Follow the money.

[Wind Dancer]

278. I agree that we are witnessing

the most corrupt and dangerous government in our history. This didn't happen by chance, it's taken a long time to get the same players back in complete control, though they have been quite active during their wait.

I don't think it possible to ignore the brainwashing that has reached an all-time level high with the American people via controlled media. I just saw a wonderful documentary, "The Control Room", a must see for every American. I think this film is more damaging in many ways than F-911. Our government is the master in propaganda/manipulation, our people are being spoon-fed false information which is why so many believe * and the like are decent, God loving folks. It is so disturbing trying to reach these people, I can only say it will be like deprogramming the cult mentality. The Control Room is an honest portrayal of what really happened when we attacked Iraq and the fall of the staged "Saddam" statue collapse, plus so much more.

My hope lies within the Plame investigation. Our problems will not be over when Kerry is elected. We have a brainwashed country so those of us who know the truth must fight harder than ever, our country depends on it.

[Rockholm]

279. I have just spent the last 30 minutes reading this thread!

It's 80 degress and sunny here in Boston and I am reading THIS THREAD! It is just like Christams Eve waiting for July 14th. I was telling my in-laws about this last night at dinner (I was reading this thread on Friday at work). They are very intrigued.

[Fla Dem]

281. kick

:kick:

[Pallas180]

288. What used to be "the shadow government" is now running this country -

I've come to the conclusion that the shadow government, Halliburton
among others, but Halliburton now in the forefront as well as Bechtel, Lockheed Martin, the oil companies Unocal, Shell, BP, the munitions makers, G.E., Carlyle, and the insurance companies, are running the country. But pre-eminently Halliburton = Cheney.

We might add in the Federal Reserve BAnk and their members as the shadow government also. Although I always thought, as most of us do I think, that the Fed is a part of this government it is not. It is a private banking enterprise made up of private banks ( Mellon, Rockefeller, Morgan, Warburg etc. who loan money to this country and other countries)

I've read with interest H20's and others' views in this thread.

I agree CI/Mi are making their move.

A couple of thoughts.

DeLay some months back attempted to have the line of succession changed so that he would be next in line to succeed to the WH. He is now under invesigation for finance irregularities and ethics committee violations among other things, just a tip of the iceberg, likely the other things will never come out. IMHO he is the worst of the vipers. I suspect "powers" realized how dangerous he is also and that he has to be "pacified". If he survives the charges, he will still be around and a real threat to the constitution also.

Frist is not much better. A more gentlemanly appearance but representative of the pharmaceutical and insurance industries - part of the powers that have run this country and are now out in the open. You don't want to see Frist as President or Veep either.


Interesting that they are trying to put Porter Goss in charge of the intelligence agencies, which I assume will put a clamp on the intel agencies activities against this cabal. Also keep an eye on
Newt Gingrich. He's actively in the background of much that has been going on and which is not healthy for this country.


But I do see a repeat of history occurring. When "the powers" decided Nixon had to go, Agnew would have been totally unacceptable as President and so "they" got rid of him first by exposing small corruptions before he became VP. Then "they" could expose Nixon and remove him. In my limited view I gather that the intel agencies and military engineered that, but as H20 points out, that was a different
time and there seemed to be men of courage who were honorable in the
House of Representatives and Senate. The House of Representatives is
critical to form impeachment articles. It could never happen with its present make-up.

And as H20 points out, we don't have honorable patriotic people in the House now. The House of Representatives is the worst bunch of snake worshipers this country has ever seen, and the Senate seems to have folded.

Another thing I've personally observed. I know extremely intelligent people who listen to Fox and have become rabid right wingers. They won't see Moore's movie, accuse him of sedition, etc, and that's not taking into account those of limited intelligence who buy every propagandized word put out by Fox, Hannity, and O'Reilly. If Charlie
Rangel is interviewed on Fox, they flip the channel. These people won't listen to any other channel. The brainwashing/propagandizing
disinforming of the average American.

(BTW - you DU-interneters are NOT the average American)

I agree with H20. Unfortunately, our chances of returning to the
democracy we have known are slim and slimmer and I don't think Kerry
can galvanize this country and the people in it. Perhaps the powers that be chose him as a more reasonable version of the figurehead they need.

You have about 33% rabid right wings-fundamentalist voters. You still have about 33% liberal constitutional supporters. The other 34% seem to be people who just are not connected, don't know or care what's going on in this country or the world,don't believe it affects them in any way, and even don't know who the Vice President of this country is. Could they be expected to understand they are losing their freedom, their social security, their benefits, their ability to send their children to a decent school, or on to college, or to prepare them for a job other than the new manufacturing: McDonald's flippers? NO.

While we are concentrating on the presidential race, we have not been concentrating on congressional candidates. They, in the House of Representatives are where we have lost the balance of power, IMHO.

Unless radical change takes place with this next election, and the constitutional rights are put back (which I think is highly unlikely even if democrats win the election because this country under this past 4 year administration has been third world countried.)

Did you know that some House of Representative members, the Black caucus have written the UN demanding they monitor the November elections?

Of course Florida is already set up to deny 59% of democratic voters the right to vote: 39% black democrats, 20% white democrats, and only 16% white republicans within their false "felons list".

Suggestions of what to do if the thugs and Supremes steal the election again ? ? ? (and word it carefully, friends. we are not alone
on these threads. Big brother is everywhere.)

[H2O Man]

292. Your message is right on target.

Thanks for adding to this most interesting of conversations.

[truth2power]

294. H2O Man

I'd like to add to what others here have said -- following this thread has been the most incredible experience for me. Thank you, and others who have forced me to think and analyze this whole sordid situation in which we find ourselves.

The area of the country in which I live is a viper's nest of fanatic RWers, and I feel SO ALONE much of the time. I have only a few close friends who are of like mind, and I can't dump my feelings of anger and despair on them all the time. I suppose I should feel lucky to have these few, though. Some people have no one.

One quick note: You replied to one of my posts, way earlier on this thread, and you quoted Rumi. I just wanted to let you know that one of the most extraordinary books I have read is "The Sufis" by Idris Shah. So I know whereof you speak.

But to move on --

There's so much food for thought in your post #268. First of all, you said "..the people who really should be in congress are not, because they refuse to 'rise above their principles,' meaning to sell their soul to the highest bidder."

This bears upon my own experience. I see that you are a social worker (ret). I am also an independently licensed MSW, but not currently working in the field. I was once asked by a temp service if I would be interested in doing some HMO work -- that is taking phone calls and determining whether a particular treatment can be approved according to the HMO's formulary or whatever they call it. I might add that this pays extremely well.

I felt I just couldn't prostitute myself to that extent, to rise above my principles, so to speak. These people (HMOs) are vultures who trade on other people's misery. I couldn't sleep if I were a part of that.

Unfortunately, I see that, as things stand now, many congressional seats are filled by those who are whores of the first order. A DUer posted recently (paraphrasing) “Why does God hate us so much? 260 million people in the US, and this is the best he could do?" (Referring to Bush.) What a pathetic state of affairs. ( I’m sorry. I don’t remember who the poster was. Hope they don’t mind that I lifted their material.

I think I finally understand what you mean when you say that “we are not in any shape to endure a constitutional crisis.” I am impatient by nature, and I tend to want “change” to happen immediately. If all these reptiles did the perp walk, from top to bottom, it would suit me just fine. Sweep ‘em out and start all over. But I take from what you're saying that since the entire system is rotten (executive, legislative and judicial branches), to pull one brick from this edifice may cause the whole structure to collapse, so we must work verrry carefully. You have a way of getting to the heart of the matter.

Thank you again for your contribution here.

[dweller]

295. Please start thread II

this thread is becoming too cumbersome for dialup.

thanks
dp

[loudsue]

306. Noooo! This thread is just fine!

Why does someone always want to come in and change the rhythm?

:kick::kick:

[dweller]

307. b/c

some of us would like the privilege of reading it?
it's too cumbersome for dialup users to read the whole thread.

there's other requests for a new thread also.

dp

[truth2power]

308. Trouble is.....

if your on dial-up it takes 2 or 3 minutes just to load. ;(

[TacticalPeek]

309. Let's keep this running until July 14. Or indictments, whichever's first.

It reflects one of the few rays of hope shining through the dark, apocryphal clouds.

At this point, dialuppers (sometimes including me) should just load the collapsed thread and click the incremental adds.

:kick:

[loudsue]

310. I'm on dail-up, too....this thread is WORTH the effort.

Besides....How can you "reply to a post # above, if there IS NO "above". A lot of the higher numbered reply posts are found under some of the lower number posts....and I go back & read 'em!

It disrupts the continuity to start a new thread. It's a thought-process killer. On many threads I would agree that a new thread would be a good idea, but not this one.

:kick::kick::kick:

[Wind Dancer]

296. Kick!

For the afternoon gang!

[mopaul]

299. woo woo , im' number 300 !!!!!.............n/t

[truth2power]

301. Oops! Sorry, Mo. I stepped on your #300.

I guess we posted about the same time.

[nolabels]

302. Now if we could only figure out how to get the lottery #s }^)

Steve and Kristine White
May 8, 2004
Pennsylvania

Steve and Kristine White Take Home Largest Jackpot Prize in PA Lottery History

HARRISBURG: Secretary of Revenue Gregory C. Fajt and Executive Director of the Pennsylvania Lottery Edward Mahlman today presented a check for $110,230,721 cash – less 25 percent federal withholding – to Steven and Kristine White of Skillman, New Jersey, holders of the single winning ticket – sold in Pennsylvania – for the May 8, 2004, Powerball® drawing. The jackpot had an annuity value of $213.2 million, the largest prize in the Pennsylvania Lottery’s 32-year history.

“I’m delighted to present this check to Steve and Kristine, and I congratulate them,” Secretary Fajt said. “By playing Powerball®, the Whites also have made this a great day for the hundreds of thousands of older Pennsylvanians who benefit from Lottery-funded programs. They, too, are winners today.
(snip)
http://www.powerball.com/powerball/winners/2004/050804pa.shtm

[truth2power]

300. Mods, could we lock this and start a new thread?

I can hardly get it to load. (dial-up)

[Wilber_Stool]

304. FLASH !!!!

We interrupt these indictments for a late breaking scoop: Michael Jackson feeds two headed baby to sharks. Film at six.

[loudsue]

305. What if the CIA loses this battle?

I have been reading this thread for the past 4 days. It's far and away the best, most lucid discussion I've ever read on DU (and that's saying something! I've been here a very long time, and DUers have produced some stellar threads!). Big thanks to all who have participated!

But there is still this one big question in my mind: What if the very talented, very patient, extraordinarily intelligent INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES lose this battle?

It requires (1)the courts, (2)the congress, and the telling of the story (3=the media) to get (4) the people all on board to determine if we are going to sustain our Democracy.

Given that the courts have been stacked
Given that the congress has been purchased
Given that the media wants our Democracy dead
Given that at least 33% of the population has been brainwashed

What chance do a few "spooks" have in the battle they are waging here? And ARE ALL of these Intelligence professionals determined that Democracy is the form of government that we SHOULD have?

It does appear that there are some very powerful patriots well-placed in our government who are poised to fight a decisive battle. But it also appears to me that, through 30 years of well-orchestrated, concerted efforts on the part of some thoroughly powerful, focused, greed-consumed and evil individuals, the patriots in power in Intelligence & government are severely outnumbered. And... their financial backing is in the hands of the "others".

Those holding the largest reins of power are in favor of a Plutocracy (government by the wealthy), with its accompanying Fascist overtones.

I concur that we are having a Constitutional crisis... and I have come to the conclusion on this thread that THAT IS THE GOAL (!!) of the forces of evil: to destroy that pesky document, once and for all.

I do truly believe that an upper crust Military leadership is in favor of preserving the Constitution. And I believe that MANY, if not most, of our Intelligence warriors favor preserving the Constitution. But.... look at the battlefield. Look where the troops on opposing sides of this battle are poised, and look at how well "armed" each side is. And WHO, in the end, has control of the troops?

In 1997, two world-class political/economic authors, James Dale Davidson and Lord William Rees-Moog wrote a book entitled The Sovereign Individual, which at one point states the obvious: Historically, the guys who have taxing authority, and who PAY & manage the armies are the guys who make the rules. (This is a MUST READ book, by the way.)

Historically, the taxing authority of governments gave these governments the power to organize and use military might. Now, with a "privatized military", CORPORATIONS can now use the military force that they can pay for, AND THE ARMY CAN FIGHT ON BEHALF OF THE CORPORATION!!! There is no longer the necessary loyalty to any certain government. And do you think all these "arms sales" are STRICTLY sales to government run armies? We've already seen that they are NOT.... terrorists, privatized military.... what's the difference?

Halliburton/Carlyle... these are obvious culprits of privatized armies securing arms. Is this part of what Sibel Edmonds was seeing, but wasn't sure of the connection? Governments aren't necessarily the only ones securing arms with drug money. And I'm sensing a glaring overlap of FACTIONS in our government with the private sector armies.... Cheney/Halliburton is only one of those way too obvious examples.

:kick::kick::kick::kick:

[Moderator]

311. Locking due to length.

Please continue here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1920799


DU Moderator